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The twilight of the CD...?

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  Thread Last Poster Posts Last Post
Archive through August 02, 2004John A.100
Archive through July 23, 2004John A.100
Archive through July 07, 2004KEGGER100
Archive through June 24, 2004KEGGER100
Archive through June 01, 2004Gregory Stern100
Archive through May 06, 2004John A.100
Archive through May 01, 2004John A.100
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1019
Registered: Dec-03
great stuff john. you guys have my head spinning most of the time.
with your conversations back and forth about actual
music notes and opera and composers and clasical.
plus many things that are well known "to the older crowd"
i mean that in the best way possable. but you guys
know about things i've never heard of. so most of
your conversations are over my head. but that's
allright i pick up bits and pieces hear and there.
plus it puts me in my place knowing that you guys
are more educated than myself. it doesn't bother
me to know this , it's just a fact of life some
people are going to know things that others are not.

all i can do is hope to gain some knowlage from you folks.

then contribute when i can with my views. which hopefully
if we can all converse with open minds we all may
choose to look at some things differently then we
previously did.

to me that's how life should be for everyone.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1020
Registered: Dec-03
oh yah i do know about the tonto/lone ranger stuff also the lemmings.

how about them wildabeasts aye?
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 123
Registered: Jul-04
John A.
Sigh - as usual, you argue - and disemble - like a good Jewish Psychologist trying to make ethereal points. Nice try. . .but it doesn't wash. Respectfully, Larry R.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
No, no, no, John. It's black is black (I want my baby back). What's this, "I forget the name of the band"? John, that doesn't even rhyme.

OK. You must not have ever seen this in operation. Look at the subtractive example and see what happens when you combine red/violet with green/blue. The partial problem is there is subtractive mixing which is using pigment and there is additive mixing which uses light. The problem Stoplight addressed was stopping light with pigment. The problem with any other color other than the complimentary is all other colors will reflect at least some amount of the light waves that make up the red/violet light of the laser.

http://www.sanford-artedventures.com/study/g_color_wheel.html
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1898
Registered: Dec-03
J. Vigne,

Like Kegger, I am baffled. Black is best by that argument (as far as I understand it...): black absorbs all visible wavelengths of light. That is why it is black. Green is chosen to baffle people with optics, I suggest.

Grey is gre-ey; since she went a-way a-ho-ho-o.

What can I do-ho; Oh I--I-I-I-; I'm feeling blu-e.

I still can't remember the name of the band.

BTW I don't normally do this, but you can take it, and I am feeling irritable; my e-mail alerts to these post have stopped (Big brother again, I 'm sure of it): you mean "complementary".

Kegger,

What the ____ is this about wildabeasts? You've lost me.

Larry,

Careful. S. Freud could have taken offence at that.

No offence intended. Not anyone here, anyway. Only to Big Brother.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 133
Registered: Jul-04
John and all interested in the "progress" of the SACD technology - an interesting link?

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/184900.html

Now, John, I know as a loyal DVD-A supporter, you'll come out of your corner swinging. Sigh. But I hope for a response sans high-minded philosophical rhetoric. GRIN
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 134
Registered: Jul-04
John and all interested in the "progress" of the SACD technology - an interesting link?

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/184900.html

Now, John, I know as a loyal DVD-A supporter, you'll come out of your corner swinging. Sigh. But I hope for a response sans high-minded philosophical rhetoric. GRIN
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 135
Registered: Jul-04
John and all interested in the "progress" of the SACD technology - an interesting link?

http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/hirez/messages/184900.html

Now, John, I know as a loyal DVD-A supporter, you'll come out of your corner swinging. Sigh. But I hope for a response sans high-minded philosophical rhetoric. GRIN
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John A. - Yes, thank you. E not i. The fingers don't always do what the mind dois. Whatever color is most effective is probably a moot point right now as Stoplight is no longer in production. There was, about the same time as Stoplight's appearance, a suggestion that CD's with a black label area had a better, more transparent sound than those which had labels of any other color. The idea never went further to my knowledge though the Mod Squad Damper Disc was essentially a charcoal color if that was worth anything. I have one of these discs that I would be happy to loan to anyone who wishes to see if they can get it stuck in their player. As I said many new transports are not happy with anything other than a single disc in the tray. This is particularly true of changers. If you would like to borrow this item, let me know and we will work out the exchange. If you are curious about whether your player might not like this disc (which in total thickness is about equivalent to having 3 discs in the tray) you can try to place 2 discs in the tray and see what happens. If things get bolixed up you can normally remove the top cover and retreive your discs. I can't recommend anyone trying this but if you are game let me know.

Larry - The review of the SACD leaves out the most important item in knowing what we should come away with from his comments, namely, what system did he use for playback. I will assume the system is of sufficient quality. But, since his review would lead me to believe he played the PCM versions without analog conversion within the player the comparison to SACD (DSD) playback still is not complete. SACD must, at this time, be converted within the player before it can be sent to the amplification portion of the system. I am aware of only one exception to this rule. That being an all digital Sony player and amplification system that I'm not even certain is commercially available. With the conversion taking place in the player and then sent to what amounts to "direct ins" on the amplification I doubt that the questions posed are really answered completely. A litle more information would have helped here. I couldn't find the information anywhere on the site or its links.
I made reference awhile back to a comment that apeared in "The Absolute Sound" suggesting that SACD will become the "audiophile" format while DVD-A will eventually morph into something other than what we now have (possibly being more video oriented). This article doesn't discuss that possiblity, or the comparison of formats, since there is not (and appears there never will be) a DVD-A version. It does, I think, indicate a swing towards SACD as the predominant format in Hi Rez recording/playback if only for the smaller labels.
More interesting to me was the information on the amount of SACD's which are available as true DSD recordings. One of the big hits on this format has been the lack of support it has recieved, even from its parent company Sony, as mnay SACD's are reissues of catalog pieces that were recorded in analog, some even before noise reduction was implemented. While I appreciate my RCA Red Seals from the 50's and 60's and Capitol and Columbia recordings, et al, I wish the SACD format had more recordings that didn't need transfering and manipulation between formats. Part of that is the belief by those committed to digital, as Sony clearly is, that digital will not degrade the signal no matter how many times it is transferred and manipulated.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 136
Registered: Jul-04
Oh, dear me - I've done it again. Here I thought that my posting (3 times, yet) had not gone through. My computer, bless her heart, has had major problems of late, and the little blue bar at the bottom right of my screen seldom gets all the way across. Sigh again - I just don't know what to do! It now takes me an average of five minutes just to access the eCoustics message board. I've run Spybot and Ad-aware, and tried to clean out everything - but there's something still there that is malevolent fer shore!
I'd just like to pause here to apologize to EVERYBODY on this forum - I'm in the midst of a series of dental procedures that keeps me in constant pain - and I'm just not able to access "humor" at this point. NO - please - I'm NOT seeking sympathy, but just want y'all to know that I'm not at my best these days. Talk about three root canals, some oral surgery, and three crowns, and you get the picture - and my obvious lack of funds for upgrading at the moment!
Sigh again - I'm going to sit back and take more codeine and Scotch for a couple of days, and see if I can get in better humor!
I know why My Rantz left - I left the Polk Speaker forum for the same reason - private messages to me that were not only nasty, but obscene and degrading as well. I got hints of this on this forum, and found that there seems to be a fine line here between Humor and Teasing and Insults.
As an adult (well, at age 68 I'm trying to be) I find that some of the humor on these threads is rather Sophomoric - but that is my OPINION, not a fact of the world.
As I don't personally know any of you, I try to blend in best as I can - but know that I will not, in the end, do so.
I find the opinions and concepts presented on these forums to be of great help to me.
sorry that I'm in a bit of a mental and physical bind at the moment: I'll try to do better as I go along.
Thanks for listening/reading my rants - and Godspeed to all. Respectfully - Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1906
Registered: Dec-03
Cue to J. Vigne, Teaching an old dog new tricks.. Wednesday, August 04, 2004 - 02:19 am.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1033
Registered: Dec-03
LARRY IT'S NOT JUST YOUR PC. LATELY THE FORUM HAS
BEEN ACTING UP AND BEING VERY SLOW. SOMETIMES IT
DOESN'T WORK AT ALL OR STALLS OUT.

sorry my caps lock was on again!

we all feal your pain. mouth/tooth pain can be the worst.


JOHN: THIS.

"Kegger,

What the ____ is this about wildabeasts? You've lost me. "

was in contrast to your lemmings. as lemmings will
play follow the leader so to speak even if it gets
them in trouble. the wildabeasts are simular.

"
In the Serengeti-Mara ecosystem the animals make a migratory circle each year of 500 to 1,000 miles. The migration starts after the calving season in January and February on the short grass plains in the southeastern Serengeti. Wildebeests move west toward Lake Victoria, across the grass savanna to the open woodlands, then turn north into the Mara. They then begin the return trip to the south. They are relentless in their advance and will swim rivers and lakes in such huge masses that many are injured, lost (especially in the case of calves) or killed. They will follow even if it means danger. "

 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 143
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger: just got "locked out" for some reason, so will try again.
Thanks - it often takes more than ten minutes to get onto the forum, then it may post my bits of prose two or three times! Ugh. . .
Back to bed - my meds are taking effect. Sigh.
I really, really hate pain! Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1037
Registered: Dec-03
I got yu larry!

but i wouldn't be concerned it's your system if it
only does these triple posts and lockout type things
on this board.

because as i've said it happens to me too on both
pc's at work and at home.

how are the popups doing lately? did adaware 6.0 help?

take care.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 145
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
Good morning! Thanx for the reply - and now I've run Ad-aware several times, and have loaded Spybot and run it three times. Good grief! Seems that my poor Lola (Lola Laptop, blush) is over-grown with all sorts of evil stuff!
She's running better now - but for some reason I'm still getting those pop-ups every time I access eCoustics forum. Have unloaded and re-loaded the link - with no help. I'll try Ad-aware yet again - sigh.
I do note that I keep getting some "cabinet files" in Windows Temp - and I guess that's where the pop-ups are coming from? I, of course, delete them every session - but don't know how to stop them from coming in.
Any help would be APPRECIATED! Yes, fer shore! Drives me nuts to start writing, then WHAM in my face comes an ad for something. Grrrrrrr.
More anon - and have a (well, you know!) LR
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1039
Registered: Dec-03
het larry i just sent yu a p.m. to call me or
give me your # and i'll call you. i have some ideas
but to involded on a post.

so just email me back.

i'm at work so it's no problem.

and if you don't want the bill just send me your # and i'll call you.
it's no problem i make calls all day long!
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 146
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger - now that it's done - thank you for your help. I did what you said, and had to re-mark a few things, but my good ole gal came to life a lot better than before.
Also - my last scan(s) with Ad-aware seem to have - at least for the moment - solved the pop-up problem.
As to the inability to access my bank site - I had the "cookie" settings too high. When I reduced them to "medium high" I was able to access the accounts, etc.
Whew! Thought I had ANOTHER problem! OK - onward and upward.
BTW - I'm thinking of writing my posts in Word, them pasting them here - it will give me access to more editing tools - including the wonderful "Spellcheck" so I can scan my writings and find my mis-spelled words. Yes, my friend, even old writers make mistakes - a lot of them!
GRIN Thanks again - Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1908
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Thanks. I did not know that. People tend to behave that way, too.

Larry,

" High-minded philosophical rhetoric " or not, that is my opinion.

Thank you for the link. Yes, I come out fighting, but not about DVD-A/SACD. That review contains exactly the sort of writing that irritates me in Gramophone. I come away quite unable to tell what has been compared with what, and what the conclusion is. It is just a matter of simple English. Give me Kegger's stuff any time.

You cannot even trace the disc; no label; no recording specs. In particular, the "analogue", "DSD" and "PCM" specs are not given, so the guy's conclusions, even if you can find them, could mean anything. My guess is the "PCM" is standard CD, LPCM at 16 bit, 44.1 kHz. It would not have taken much effort to say so. "Analogue" could mean a professional tape recorder with open tape at 15 inches per second, a cassette recorder, a dictaphone, an Edison parafin wax cylinder, any or all of those, with or without any sort of compression or noise reduction.

Do the various versions all have the same mixing? Simple question. Most SACD re-issues of Cd are different mixes of the original master recordings; no A vs B comparision is possible. This is another conjuring trick that makes me sceptical about SACD. If it is so darned good that anyone can hear the improvement over CD immediately, why don't the recording companies give you the same mix, so you can tell?

Then, what are the writer's impressions? Things like:

"I was frankly very disappointed with quality of the reproduced sound in all four versions on this disc. " That, sunshine, is about YOU, not about the recording. Lighten up. Try not to be so easily disappointed!

"The difference with DSD Mastering/DSD Reproduction was an even greater sense of ambience, space and microdynamics, plus much improved transparency, especially in the mid-range"

Even greater than what? And what do all those words mean? "Improved transparency" - is that like in windows? Does "improved" mean "greater"? Then why not say so? And tranparency "...in the midrange"? Isn't that like saying a window is more transparent to green that to red or blue? if so, it would be coloured. Green. But this is sound! "a feeling of greater palpability, of more space surrounding the instruments" Is that or is that not another way of saying "improved transparency"? "Palpability"- able to be palped....? What, the clarinet, or the sound it makes.......? "more space surrounding the instruments" - is that good......?

Let me just a bit more off my chest. The performance.

"Of the five CD recordings of the Mozart concerto which I own, this performance comes in a solid second. Antony Michaelson's clarinet work is focused and lyrical, and the Michaelangelo Chamber Orchastra's playing is what you would expect from a group composed of some of the best players taken from various London orchastras. " .....[which is......?]...... "......The result in my opinion is surpassed only by the virtuosic performance recorded on Novalis in 1990 by the reknown Dieter Klocker and the English Chamber Orchastra." Actually, never having heard of him, I think Dieter Klocker's reknown is a little overrated. I've heard of Jack Brymer, Benny Goodman, Acker Bilk, Thea King....

This condescention about the musicians, in my view, is insufferable arrogance and total b*ll*ocks. It is the sort of BS that gives "classical" music a bad name. I imagine he hopes the musicians will read his review, go away sadder and wiser, try harder next time, or throw unworthy selves on sword. I would dearly like to hear the writer play anything at all on the clarinet. And why this craze for ratings? They are different interpretations. That's it.

Place in order of personal preference:-

A. Dark Side of the Moon
B. David Beckham's Left Foot.
C. "Friends"
D. Shostakovich's "Leningrad" symphony.
E. Beaujolais Nouveau
F. Terminal 2 at Heathrow Airport
G. Mozart's horn concerto in E flat transcribed for swannee whistle.
H. A migrating herd of Wildebeest.

No you are not allowed to say "it all depends....": please answer the question.

"CONCLUSIONS .....Notwithstanding the deficiencies in mastering this disc, the effects of pure DSD formating are undeniable."

No they are not. He has not made any comparison that allows him to judge, still less that allows us to. He wants us to take his word for it. A lemming, following the DSD herd, whilst looking behind, hoping he is being followed, too.

Pshaw.

Respectfully.

John

PS and where does DVD-A come in? - it is not even mentioned!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1047
Registered: Dec-03
your welcome larry anytime i can help makes me feel better.

call anytime. or pm me and i'll call you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 147
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
Rather refreshing, opening and working wid my liddle gal-computer now! Wow! I never knew what I was missing - speed-wise, that is.
Oh, yes - meant to say to you - now even my CD player is working flawlessly. Wonderful! I like to have some music playing as I work late-night, and for some time now it just gave me fits and starts. Sigh. Maybe something "evil" was lurking. At any rate - with your advice, things are, well, "better." I know, guys, what does "better" mean. Well, how about: accessing files and programs without pop-ups and hangups? Sure makes me happy!! Respectfully - Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 373
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

I thought you would like to read the following quotes:

"Since it's introduction in 1983, CD playback technology has advanced more rapidly than has any other field of audio."-Robert Harley in The Complete Guide to High-End Audio

"New formats like DVD-Audio and SACD are gaining popularity, but don't expect them to replace CDs any time soon. CDs are sounding better and better all the time, thanks in part to improved technology in the latest-generation CD players. The newest players contain such performance enhancements as jitter reduction circuitry, improved chip sets, and 24-Bit, 96 kHz DAC or better." Audio Advisor-summer catalog
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
http://www.marigoaudio.com/cdmat.htm
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1911
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

OK, It is wind-up John time. A harmless pursuit, easily accomplished; can sometimes be entertaining.

I have a copy of "The Absolute Sound" (June/July); I think Jan recommeded it, for a feature on surround sound. For my money, its editor, Robert Harley, takes the biscuit for preening, narcissistic twaddle. Please send him to Pseuds' Corner where he belongs. Of course CD has advanced more since 1983 - it didn't exist before 1983. That's like saying that, since 1903, powered flight has advanced more than other than other forms of transport. What do you expect; great advances in horse-drawn vehicle design.....? Web sites have improved more, since 1992, than, say, oil painting. How do people get away with being paid for writing stuff like that?

And what is the point of 24-bit 96 kHz DAC when the source is 16 bit 44.1 kHz. Oh sorry, upsampling, I forgot. Bah, humbug.

Jan,

Thanks. Life is too short for green mats made of miraculous new materials. Maybe I'll take another look when I've calmed down a bit.

"The MARIGO LABS SIGNATURE 3-D MAT for CD & DVD utilizes a revolutionary and proprietary gold surface on top of anti-static black coating and optically absorbent green. This synergistically creates a new level of performance for both audio and video digital replay."

Well it would, wouldn't it?

"....optically absorbent green. " a green what? And what other sort of green is there? Honestly, really. Give me plain words and I'll consider the product. If it is any good, why do they need to write nonsense about it.......?
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 148
Registered: Jul-04
J. Vigne
Had a good laugh, then a concerned moment, when I read the link to the "ultimate mat." Here - or hear? - we go again/
Two hundred smackers for a gold/green/black disc seems a bit over the top - where they suggest I put it after I elude my wife and spend all that money.
Remember - I TRIED a rubber mat atop the CD in my player - and you remember what happened - STUCK-OH!!! Ouch. I guess that means that there is no way I'll be purchasing the disc - at least until I get a thousand-dollar machine with a tad more room over the CD? Hmmm. . .
Loved the link - brought back such, uh, "interesting" memories of my Great Green Pen schtick, and the amazing reactions I got from the story!
P. T. Barnum was right: "there's a sucker born every minute." OH - not that this "disc" is bogus, you understand! Heck, it might solve ALL of my playback problems! But I'll bet that, should I buy it, a person of the female gender around here would have me put away in a nice, padded room somewhere. . . Respectfully, LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 149
Registered: Jul-04
WAIT A MINUTE, WAIT A MINUTE, GUYZ!!
Go back to Jan's link - and go to the left-side panel - then click on "tuning dots." This is SURE to drive John's blood pressure through the roof! Now, I want youze guyz to 'spain to me how and what these thangs DO! Please! Hey - wait - my wife has some little rubbed tibs that we put at the edge of cabinet doors and such, to stop the banging sound. Little rubber feet that I can buy for about $4 US - BUT I'm sure they're nowhere the same as TUNING DOTS! Oh, my. . . LR
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1912
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Thank you. It brings my blood pressure down. It is completely clear what those guys are up to.

VTS TUNING DOTS FOR ELECTRONICS

White 3mm VTS Tuning Dots
• ALL solid state devices: integrated circuits, voltage regulators, digital chips, 1 dot per device
• Output transistors: 1 tuning dot (please degrease transistor first)
• Medium size octal base vacuum tubes --- tip of key pin: 1 tuning dot per tube
• 9 pin miniature vacuum tubes --- centered on bottom: 1 tuning dot per tube


Green 3mm VTS Tuning Dots
• Top of all sizes electrolytic capacitors: 1 tuning dot per capacitor


Black 6mm VTS Tuning Dots
• Electronic equipment faceplates: 1 tuning dot in each corner on back surface
• Turntable record clamp: 3 tuning dots around perimeter
• Tonearm counterweight: 3 tuning dots around perimeter


White 4mm VTS Tuning Dots
• Large octal base vacuum tubes --- tip of key pin: 1 tuning dot per tube
• Circuit boards: 1 - 4 tuning dots in corners
NOTE: Do NOT add board dots if applying dot treatment to all applicable circuit devices.
• Phono cartridge: 1 tuning dot on front face
• Volume & balance controls: 1 tuning dot on back


Of course electrolytic capacitors have always had a preference for green. Perhaps the Stoplight is green to please the capacitors.

Tuning dots.

....I wonder where else you can put them...........?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 41
Registered: Jun-04
A hint regarding the pop-ups: There is an irritating ****ware called "Backweb lite". Not effectively treated by spybot nor adaware. It's an add-on to a tool for automatic software updates, delivered with for instance HP computers and Logitech gear. Search on hard disc for iadhide.dll. If it's there, dont just erase it. Advanced computer knowledge needed to remove the ******* creep.

Cheers
AL
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
http://www.digital-recordings.com/cdcheck/sensnd02.html

http://www.marigoaudio.com/audiophile.htm

http://www.audioreview.com/Marigo%20Audio%20Lab,DVD,Mat/PRD_117895_1590crx.aspx
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1913
Registered: Dec-03
Oh, joy unbounded. Oh, happy day. Larry, Jan, how can I thank you?

From http://www.marigoaudio.com/absolute2.htm


While space constraints prohibit a detailed description of the enhancements which accompany each application, I must relate a couple of telling examples. The cymbal strike at the end of Steely Dan's Gaucho [MCA-6102] has, on my system, consistently betrayed a slight electronic sizzle. Attaching one 4mm white dot to the bottom of each preamp tube mitigated the problem, and subsequent placement of those dots near the comers of the main PC board along with 4mm dots at the top edge of each capacitor completely banished this artifact. Need proof that these things work before you slather them all over your gear?


Chip in with your audiophile friends and buy the 4mm white dots ($69/package of 25). Stick one on the front vertical surface of your phone cartridge and follow the triangle during Symphonic Dances [Athena ALSW1000]. I, for one, had not previously realized how much of the instrument's decay component had been captured on this record.


I have been experimenting with energy-control concepts since long before the practice was in fashion, and I developed an axiom in order to determine whether a given damping accessory yields a musically worthy result: A beneficial vibration control device will generate exactly the opposite audible effect as will a detrimental product. The hallmarks of proper vibration damping are improved midrange bloom, a heightened awareness of microdynamics, and a more complete rendition of high-frequency instrumental decay. A system in which these qualities are diminished will be described, consciously or otherwise, as "overdamped." The science and art of vibration control requires that a designer damp those noises which are spuriously generated by the component, without obscuring the delicate resonant signatures which constitute the thumbprint of a musical event. In my experience, the VTS Dots are among the few products in this genre which strike the correct balance between these two objectives. For those of you who have balked at the prices of vibration control devices, the VTS Dots will come as an affordable and effective alternative


Now, all I need is a phone cartridge.....
 

Ranger
Unregistered guest
Whoa, Silver. Tonto, let's rest here for a while. You seem to be really stressed out here, my little red buddy. Let's just pull over and enjoy some of that plant over there, nice shade with kind of frondy leaves.






Hey, Tonto, don't Bogart the frondy leaves and buds.




You realxing some, Tonto?







Hey, look, Tonto, that cloud looks like a little bunny rabbit. AAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!






Rest.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1914
Registered: Dec-03
I do not think I have ever balked. Certainly not at the prices of vibration control devices.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John, if you think Harley is twaddle you should read some of the stuff from Harry Pearson, the original editor and creator of TAS. He is now semi retired. Just wore himself out listening to really expensive hi fi's.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 374
Registered: Dec-03
John,

I take Ziac and Avapro for my blood pressure. How about you? (LOL!!)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jun-04
Just imagine the blood pressure of the guy who spent twenty grand on a valve amp and then discovered that manufacturer forgot to glue on those VTS dots on the tubes. You can't trust anyone these days.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 376
Registered: Dec-03
Ok Ok,

Just remember I wasn't the one who first brought up the subject of vibration tweaks. I would like to share mine with all of you. The subject of internal vibration control with electronics was first introduced to me about ten years ago. I experimented with several material sources until I discovered the sonic benefits of brass isolation cones. Trust me, you are wasteing time and money with any material other tan brass. The best ones I have found, are from Mapleshade Records. You can find them online. Their cones are quite heavy and massive. They come in sets of 3. I have had all my conponents under their cones for years and the sonic difference is as they say, not subtle. They channel the internal vibrations to the shelf below. The sonic difference is clearly audible. Lows are tighter, midrange more detailed, and highs cleaner. Guys, this is one tweak that really works. Try them for yourself. Put a set under your CD player or amp/receiver and you tell me. Cheers!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 45
Registered: Jun-04
Interesting, seriously. Is this just for turntables, or would you say there are vibrations even in solid-state, for instance by power supply?
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 151
Registered: Jul-04
Gentlemen(?)
Leave it to my Mensa-level wife to create THE deciding solution to all of your vibration problems. VibraTION, not vibbraTORS, guyz!
Anyway, after reading the utterly fascinating descriptions of the whatever-thangs she huffed away to the kitchen.
I heard her rattling around, and then she told me that the solution would take about a half-hour to "finish." I dipped into a large bottle of gin, mixed with a tad of dry Vermouth and a lemon twist, and promptly forgot about her "cure."
Well, sirs, a half-hour later she started rustling about again - and then asked me to come in to help her.
What had she done? Well, she had made a nice, large pan of Jello - raspberry flavor. It was about 3/4 inch thick. She took a bisquit-cutter and cut out circles, which she put on a plate.
Yep (as Kegger would say) we took those Jello-circles in and put them under each corner of our problem-plagued CD player. My, how shimmery they look! And just in case of a hurricane - my, what emergency food sources they are!
Anyway - proof of the pudding, er, Jello. We put on one of those nasty, gritty ole Deutsch Grammophon CDs and let-er play!
Wowee, friends, the mid-range was syrupy, the highs were tightly-knit, and the lows simply vibrated with unlimited energy!
Now - we're putting those Jello circles under our little surround speakers - and under every beverage container in the listening room.
Yessirs - we've got THE solution - and remember, for late-night snacks or hurricane emergency food - well, it's all within arm's reach. I highly recommend the "Jellocity jitter junkers" to everybody.
If you want, we can ship you sets of four, for only $56 plus FedEx shipping. Flavors optional.
respectfully(?) Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 377
Registered: Dec-03
Arnold,


ALL electronic components.

Larry,


Bravo! (LOL)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1058
Registered: Dec-03
hey can you guys click on speakers/subs or radios
from the main home audio menu?

or do they not exist?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1059
Registered: Dec-03
good one larry i like!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1915
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

You've got it. Great. Welcome to Old Dogs.

Rick,

Now I like dry humour, but this is just on the edge, and I am unable to decide.

"Lows are tighter, midrange more detailed, and highs cleaner."

Does this mean that, without the brass cones:-

"Lows are looser, midrange less detailed, and highs dirtier."....?

Please tell me this was written in jest. Perhaps it is a reference to side effects of beta-blockers or similar (never taken them; perhaps I should). Or the smoking the frondy stuff (ditto; cleaner highs?). Or, if you mean it, please explain a little. Sorry to be so slow. Just lead me by the hand for a second or two, and tell me what the following would mean, and how I could tell the difference:

"Lows are tighter, midrange more detailed, and highs cleaner."
"Lows are more detailed, midrange tighter, and highs cleaner."
"Lows are cleaner, midrange more detailed, and highs tighter."
"Lows are cleaner, midrange tighter, and highs more detailed."

etc.etc (nine altogether, I think). Surely you are joking. Yes, I see now, the cones are placed above the equipment, but they channel energy to the shelf below. Nice one. Sorry to be obtuse.

Ranger. Please remove that mask. I am hoping you are really My Rantz. Same for Moriarty.
 

The Phantom
Unregistered guest
When I stand on my brass isolation cones my lows are lower, my mids become more middling and my highs are taller. These tweaks are real. Rick is real. Rick should be taken seriously. Rick is our friend. We trust our friends.

Also would like to recommend the cone of silence. No mute button necessary.

The Guest Who Stalks
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 379
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

Yes sir, I am serious. Go to www.mapleshaderecords.com and check out their iso cones. I also think you will like to read about the history and technique of the recording studio. Some of the best recordings on the planet.

Phantom,

Thank you. I, like the Ranger, speak not with a forked tongue. Rick IS a friend.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1920
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

Thanks. I own up to having trouble distinguishing the serious from the jest, from time to time. I am still reeling from Tuning Dots. I promise to follow the link later, no time right now. "Rick IS a friend". Yes. He is also identifiable, as "Rick". Many thanks!!

The Phantom, Moriarty, Ranger: thank you, but it is disconcerting to have one or more unidentifiable contributors; these aliases can be used by anyone. This forum had a massive malicious attack last year, using such means. It broke months of trust, and wasted endless time. In all seriousness, I advise against!

Cheers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 595
Registered: Dec-03
The earth is vibrating from earthquakes, wind, wave action, etc. We must get massive tip toes and put them on both ends, like a globe.

Actually, when I lived in a house when my turntable vibrated too much from loud music I put a square foot sample of rather thick carpet under it--worked like a charm.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 153
Registered: Jul-04
Rick and all who care - -
I'm having a hard time here, chaps! The more we discuss "mods" and "tweaks" the more my poor old head spins. BTW - my wife really DID suggest the Jello! She's about as "sick" as anybody else, I guess! G R I N
So now I read about brass cone-points and isoblocks, and the need for 2-inch maple under my CD player, and putting weights on top of the unit, and then slathering silver-infused grease on my plugs, and good grief - what will they think of next - green-paint pens!???
As I don't have an LP turntable anymore, that is one worry to forget. I'm hesitant to pooh-pooh anything, for fear of rapid-response from those whose opinion it is that such things really work, and what a dork I am for questioning!!
Wellll - have any of you actually used the brass cones, or thick maple slabs, or top-of-component weights or silver grease? And???. . .
I hark back to my slink-back-to-my-den argument on another forum re the "Ah!" CD player. Got slammed, rejected, reviled and threatened when I suggested that it was a joke.
But when I went Online and asked if any of my tormentors had used, or even seen in person such a unit - well, nobody had. But they knew of an importer in California, and read Online customer reviews. Sigh. And they KNEW that it sounded better than anything else. As Kegger would say, with tongue firmly in cheek: "Yep." GRIN
Carpet under the turntable - yes, I once used a fine square of Karastan under my old turntable, and I "think" it made it "sound" better. (I know, better than what?) Dunno. . .
For many, tweaking is akin to auto engine overhaul - gives the person something to do, and perhaps makes vital differences in smoothness, speed or sound (Hollywood mufflers?). Sigh.
I'd still like to have Jan, or Kegger, or Rick, or whomever just give me a list of things to do to MY stereo setup. Things they have personally used, that made their setup measurably "better." Oh, yes - and didn't cost as much as those tuning points that John A. has, I understand, ordered three gross of. . . Yep???
Cheers, courage, and etc. Respectfully, LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 380
Registered: Dec-03
Hi Gregory,

I haven't run in to you for a while. I hope all is well. I'm sure the carpet worked well for external vibrations, but my tweak is for internal vibrations in electronic gear.

For all the nay-sayers, and anti snake oil types, let me state. I have been around long enough to know the difference, and I don't recommend or endorse anything that I haven't tried first hand, and have heard a clear audible improvement.

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1071
Registered: Dec-03
yo john don't knock the mistery poster i think
you would be said to find out who are friendly
little ghost is if you made him go away.

don't ask who just be glad of what i say.
we have a guardian angel.

go day mate!
 

Holmes
Unregistered guest
............WATSON, I can't see anything with this blizzard. Damn you Professor! Press on Watson, the convent can't be far.................
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 154
Registered: Jul-04
Sherlock Holmes and the ever-faithful Dr. Watson went on a camping trip. After a good meal and a fine bottle of wine, they lay down for the night and went to sleep.
Several hours later, Holmes awoke and nudged his faithful friend. "Watson, look up at the sky and tell me what you see."
Watson, puzzled, replied, "well, I see millions and millions of stars."
"What does that tell you?" Sherlock Holmes asked.
Watson was silent for a moment, then said slowly, "Astronomically, it tells me that there are millions of galaxies and potentially billions of planets. Astrologically, I observe that Saturn is in Leo. Horologically, I deduce that the time is approximately a quarter past three. Theologically, I can see that God is all-powerful and that we are small and insignificant. Meteorologically, I suspect that we will have a beautiful day tomorrow. What does it tell you, Holmes?"
Holmes sighed, then spoke. "Watson, you blo*dy idiot! It tells me that somebody has stolen our tent.!"
 

Moriarty
Unregistered guest
Holmes, dear man, oh how cold yoour little toesies must be. I feel your pain, I do.
Might I suggest you look to your left.

There, what do you see? Could it be? ...

Just a few steps closer ... closer... come just a bit closer, Holmes, my dear, dear friend.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Tonto - Trust Ranger. He has only silver bullets. Besides, Silver likes him.

Moriarty, on the other hand, you don't know what to think. You never quite know where that one eye is going ...
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1921
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Like it! See also Definitions and descriptionsJuly 08 where a similar conversation took place between The Lone Ranger and Tonto. They were set up. I believe you told it better!

Phantom,

Of course, down there, your brass isolation cones are standing upside down. Before commenting on Rick's finding, you could try them the other way up....

Welcome back. What a pleasure. Really. I promise no more sheep jokes. Coming from Wales, I've heard them all before.

No worries. Mate!

[Slaps Phantom on back; order round of beer; but does NOT offer cigars all round].
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1926
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

Mapleshades: thanks. The "cones" look like spikes, to me. Expensive ones. Yes, spikes do good things for speakers, they dissipate vibrational energy to the larger mass of the thing the speaker, or its stand, sits on, thus decreasing resonance. I also like the maple blocks. I am less convinced about putting electronics on spikes. They say:

"Here's the science behind our cones: Electrical currents--the music signals carrying sound to your speakers--flowing through stereo components (electronics and speakers) always generate vibrations inside the gear. It's these internal vibrations--NOT external ones--that add the most distortion to the signal, muddying music's sound."
http://www.mapleshaderecords.com/tweaks/cones.php

Hmmm....

Sound is vibration. You can feel it. Electrical current isn't, even when it is alternating current. The invisible and inaudible gremlins again. I can be quite sure it is the external vibrations that cause most of the problems in my system. I have them mostly under control, most of the time. If the cones work, and I do not doubt your report, then it is not for the reasons they put forward.
 

New member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 2
Registered: Aug-04
John A

Thanks again. Though please, do offer the cigars all around, except not to me. BUT PLEASE ALL, EXHALE IN MY DIRECTION!!!!!!

I tried the isolation cones the other way up like you suggested. Gave me a damn splitting headache. Ah, I see!

But I believe Rick is on to something with the cones. My brother did something similar with squash balls - no, not the vegetable - and swears by them. I swear when I squash . . . doesn't matter!


 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 596
Registered: Dec-03
I always used Blu-Tak to mate speakers to stands and Blu -Tak to mate stands to hard wood floors--or other hard floors. I am sure Play Dough would be effective in isolating resonance, although it may harden and break down quicker requiring more replacement.

Metal cones or other metal attached to a hard floor will increase resonance.

The notion that rubber feet on cd players traps resonances inside the component is nutty. They absorb resonance. Anyway, external resonances are normally problematic.

The rubber and air in a tire helps to isolate road resonance. Metal tires, ignoring the fact of no traction, transmit resonance from road to car.

This is not to say some people might not like the resonant effects, but I have never heard of metal (unless in the form of springs) allaying any resonances.

Again, some people may like the resonance, just like some people like other sonic differences.

It sounds like pseudo-science to me. But to each his own.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 158
Registered: Jul-04
What difference(s), exactly, do the brass cones make? I understand controlling vibration - especially on LP turntables - but without spending any more of my hardly-earned money, can you please tell me what audible difference the heavy-looking, rather intimidating cones make?
I'm not a classic "nay-sayer," but a health skeptic of things I don't understand. LR
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1927
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory, I agree. Personally, I use Blu-Tak for speakers to stands. Then the stands on spikes, on any sort of floor: nice sharp ones that connect securely with the floor. They make holes in floorboards, a small price to pay. Turntables are another story; yes, Larry, that is certainly where feedback, vibration, resonance etc are a serious issue (but you got rid of yours..?). I do believe Jan knows some things here, has given endless good advice about spikes, tennis/squash balls, sorbothane cups, etc. etc.

My Rantz, what a pleasure to read your post. Thanks! Order is restored. Please accept this Romeo y julietta corona corona, just for emergencies.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 159
Registered: Jul-04
OK, guyz, a liddle help for an ole guy, OK? I've tried my speakers (sitting atop 14-inch wooden stands) with spikes going thru the carpet to the cement floor, and with the stands resting on the carpet (sans spikes) Heard NO difference. I've put rubber pads between speakers and stands - and taken them off - NO difference. Am I missing something important here, fellas? Larry R.
 

New member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 4
Registered: Aug-04
Guys

I'm a believer in some tweaks. Maybe tweaking one thing alone might not create much of an audible difference (rememeber we older folk don't hear the high frequencies as well) but combine, floor spikes, blue tack, cones, quality speaker wire and interconnects, room dampening, corner pillows, reflection panels, voodoo, fortune tellers, astrology and mysticism, then things come together. Like the buckles on your straightjacket. Just kidding.

Larry -spikes would be more value if your floor was timber rather than concrete. Using them with carpet over concrete is more for stability rather than improving box resonance I would think. But, hey I'm no expert!

John - I have heard the cones Rick mentioned actually do make a sonic difference. But at the recommended price better for you to test the theory than me. When I put my little fan on my SR7300 I can feel it vibrating the casing slightly although it does not seem to create a problem - at least nothing I can hear.

Speaker placement and furniture positioning make real audible differences. Even with a front ported sub (situated 2 feet from the wall), I had to stuff foam behind a cabinet which backs the same wall to prevent vibration and bass build up in the corner of the room.

Also I recently purchased a new audio rack with floor spikes (suits our uneven slate floor) which is much more solid and stable than what I had previously. No sonic difference but a better feeling of security.

But Larry, one doesn't miss what one never had so don't let it spoil the music (grin).
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
The "science" of cones and spikes:

First, cones and spikes do similar things for speakers and electronics. Since sound is vibration when it hits a surface (whether solid or gas), it will excite vibrations in the system which produces the music if they are in close proximity to one another. John knows this from having his dustcover down on his turntable. Large, flat, less than rigid surfaces tend to collect and amplify vibrations and turn them into resonance. The resonances are fed back into things such as electronics and turntables mostly through the surfaces the equipment sits upon. Air borne vibration is easier, in the scheme of things, to control than mechanical vibration. The more rigid the surface the less resonance. The lighter the material, the easier it is to excite into vibration but the resonance will be a higher frequency and will dissapate faster. The heavier the material the opposite will occur. Low frequencies tend to be the most disruptive to audio so a lighter platform is usually preferred. Stiffness to mass ratio is to be considered and, if possible, a material such as carbon fiber offers the best combination of features.

Cones are usually used under electronics and spikes are used under speakers and stands. Spikes will couple a speaker to the floor by mass loading the weight of the speaker onto a very small point of contact at the tip of the spike. When set up properly a spiked speaker will feel as if it is bolted to the floor when force is applied to the front, back or sides of the speaker. This will increase the dynamic attack, the precision of the soundstage, and the depth and impact in the bass response. Intermodulation, and to some extent, harmonic distortion will be reduced. The reason for this is the reduction/elimination of cabinet movement caused by (primarily) the woofer pushing against the air. In a broad sense the woofer is trying to energize (put in motion) a column of air that extends into infinity every time it (the woofer) moves. If the mass of the speaker is less than the mass of the air the speaker will move slightly in response to the woofer and the air will not be fully energized. By "locking" the speaker in place the movement of the woofer will move the air and not the speaker cabinet.
To facilitate this a small stand mounted speaker is best "locked" to the stand with a substance such as BluTak, PlastiTak or photo mounting plastic. These materials have a cement like adhesion while staying pliable for long periods of time (years). Unlike materials such as Mortite or Playdough, the BluTak offers resistance to lateral movement, so as the woofer moves the speaker is not moving laterally on the stand. Speaker stands are most often hollow pipes which allow filling with lead or sand to increase the mass of the speaker and stand and also with cat litter for damping purposes. Mixing all three materials in layers normally gives the best results as each material will damp resonances in a different frequency bandwidth. When using all three, start with the lead on the bottom and the litter on the top.

Cones act similarly to spikes though many pieces of electronics do not have enough mass to utilize that aspect of a cone's design. (To utilize mass loading of a light component such as a CD player, mass [in the form of a double sandwich bag full of lead shot or other material] can be placed on top of the component. Make certain the top panel is not deflected by the weight which could cause mechanical problems in things such as CD players.)Cones will drain the internal resonances of power supplies (vibrating transformers) away from the component when the large side of the cone is toward the component (offering the largest surface area to contact he component). Three points define a plane and so three spikes often work best with one placed under the transformer. The small tip of the cone being the only contact point against the support platform there is little area for the resonance in the platform to be transferred upward to the component. This shape of the cone then acts as a mechanical diode passing mechanical energy in one direction only. Various designs and materials have tried to perfect the diode like action of cones and each claims its superiority. Ceramic cones (the second hardest material after diamond) can be found at shops which sell supplies to ceramic ware artists. They are used in the kiln during the firing process and can be purchased for a few dollars. Not all ceramic cones are exactly the same size and so care must be taken to assure a level component if you go this route. Whether a component will perform best with the cone tip up or down is a matter of the component within the system. Pointing down is usually best but try both and choose the better of the two.

Not all components will work best on cones or cones alone. Sorbothane like footers are often combined with cones to get the benefits of both types of isolation. AudioQuest footers have a recessed area that is designed for a cone to fit into. This combination of isloation devices is most often best suited to DVD/CD players, DAC's, tube pre amps and similar items.

"Jaw dropping" improvements have been claimed for cones and footers. What they will accomplish in any given system is dependent on too many factors to give absolutes about performance. Resonance and microphonics are essentially information fed back out of phase with the original signal. Eliminating vibration in your DVD/CD player means better tracking of the laser which means less error correction. Spikes, cones, footers and other vibration control devices will not turn a $79 JVC DVD/CD player (sorry, Larry) into a $20,000 SACD/DVD-A player. But they will do no harm.
 

New member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 8
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

Again, very well articulated. I'll copy and paste the above to keep on file also. I keep saying it - you should write THE BOOK. It would be one everyone could comprehend.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1931
Registered: Dec-03
Brilliant, Jan.

I, too, have said you should write a book. Quite seriously. It would be worth its weight in gold. I have never found anything with your depth of understanding coupled with good, clear writing on anything to do with audio.

Well said, My Rantz. In the middle of a long post about two months ago, Jan dropped in, casually, something such as "often you can reduce feedback by playing LPs on turntable with the lid open, or off". Contrary to maker's instructions, I tried it. A total transformation; the best piece of audio advice I ever received, bar none.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 382
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you Jan. Better said than I could ever express. I'm not a very "techie" person, so I can't explain how or why things work. I just read, do a little research, and try it. If I hear a difference-GREAT, if not-OH WELL, file the experience and move on. My tweak deals with the iso cones under electronics, not spikes under speakers. Thanks again Jan for eplaining the two.

Let me just share my feelings on tweaks if I may. Only after you have assembled a system, and experimented with placement of speakers, and have done all the basic set-up stuff..... and the system sounds great.....now is the time to start thinking in terms of getting the last ounce of performance from your system. This is the time to start thinking of cones, wires, interconnects, and other tweaks.

Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 162
Registered: Jul-04
OK, guyz - gonna give it another try.
Sigh - Jan, Rick, et al have given me "permission" to try, try again to get my system into the "sounding good" level.
One of the things that's been posted again and again is this "tie down your speakers." Bear with me just a minute, please. . .
With my liddle Polks I've tried many things. Right now, they're sitting atop some wood stands. The triangular base is about 14 inches across, the stands (essentially a couple of 1 x 3 boards) are 14 inches high, set at a "V" angle vertically. The top is a 5/8" thick particle board "shelf," on which the speakers stand. Even with rather loud music, I've never felt any vibration on the stands when I touch them. They're set up off the wood by thin rubber foam pads - basically, because I don't want to mar the beautiful Cherry finish!
Now - I have used these stands with their spikes going through carpet to the cement floor underneath. And I have removed the spikes (simple screw-ins) and let the stands sit on the carpet.
Going back and forth - well, sorry, friends, but this ole goat just can't tell any difference in sound at all! Am I missing something here? Am I doing it wrong? Heck, I'm getting to the point where I want to listen to the liddle Cambridge Soundworks speakers on my computer more than to the "big" stereo in the living room!
Sigh - I've read and re-read ALL of your advice, and have tried to follow it. I'll be happy to give it another shot today - just so I'm sure in my own mind that I'm doing a fair test.
OK - rambling done, with thanks. Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1935
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

I think my Rantz is correct, and there is not much point in putting spikes into concrete. They do not penetrate, and the floor is probably a solid and inert mass of many tons, anyway. A flat base on the stand will do just as well. Concrete floors are very good for audio; not many people have them. Especially for turntables. You get no vibration up through the floor. If it works, don't fix it.

BTW Blu-Tack, however spelt, is great stuff and can be rolled easily off wood and other surfaces, leaving no mark whatsoever, even after many years of contact.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 163
Registered: Jul-04
John A. et al
Re the speakerstand spikes. Perhaps I mis-stated in previous posts. Unless I have the spikes in place, the stand-base rests on carpet, not on concrete. BTW - this ayem I just re-installed the spikes - through carpet to concrete. I honestly can't say I hear any difference, but perhaps I would if I played music LOUD??? Just don't Know. Waiting for more info from Jan.
Oh, yes - am researching more on that Stereophile K 622 project - and include a link to the magazine's article.
http://www.stereophile.com/musicrecordings/804k622/
Also have e-mailed the writer of that review, asking him for more info on system used, etc. No reply yet - hoping.
Respectfully, larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1937
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

I think that carpet can only help things, by cushioning the base from the concrete. None of that introduces vibration-prone or resonant structures or surfaces. Flat speakers, or speaker stands, resting on an uneven, suspended, wooden floor, can buzz like a bee; spikes just lift the base and stop anything resonating, except maybe the floor itself.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 165
Registered: Jul-04
Well, John, you and Jan would seem to be at cross-purposes here, if I understand. Jan is saying to anchor the speakers so the woofers don't move the speaker-box, and you're saying that the carpet is fine for a buffer. But Jan, in a message to me, says that the carpet is not good - that if I can push down on the speaker and have it move about, that increases distortion. Sigh.
OK - I'm trying (my wife says verrry trying) to put the speakers both on and off spikes through the carpet. Frankly, my friends, I don't tell any difference at all! Triple sigh. Larry R.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Larry, I'll have more to you in an e-mail when I get more time but for now:

As I said the spikes may not be a jaw dropping improvement. Many times they are, but not always. And as I also said, the spikes will do no harm. The carpet does act as a sponge, as do your pieces of rubber under the speaker, that allow the cabinet to move slightly. Remember the dimensions of the sound waves we are talking about at the high frequencies and that you probably don't see the woofer cone's ripple when it produces a 100Hz signal. (The in/out movement of the woofer is equivalent to volume not frequency. Frequency is related to a ripple effect across the face of the driver, so even though you may be asking the speaker to produce a 50 Hz signal, at lower volumes, you will not see the woofer move in relation to that frequency.) So it is up to you to decide whether you want to use the spikes or not. My experience has been that a speaker that feels secure when you apply presure will, ultimately, give you cleaner, better sound. As to the spikes damaging the carpet, it should not be a concern. The tip of the spike is small enough to penetrate between the fibers of the carpet and its backing material without doing any damage. If you have used the spikes several times you can see whether you have damage or not.
One question I have for you; how much do your speaker stands weigh? Wooden stands are normally rather light where a metal stand with sand in the pipes will weigh about 25 - 50 lbs. I would use some BluTak between the speakers and stands as it will not harm the finish of either piece. It is one of the qualities of the material that it leaves no mark. You can find the same material packaged as PlastiTak (?) at the Container Store for a few dollars.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
I'm not posting this to beat a dead horse, to beat a drum or to beat this into anyone's skull ... This is from the interview which follows the article in "Stereophile", which Larry referenced, regarding the SACD recording:

http://www.stereophile.com/musicrecordings/804k622/index2.html

page 3, just under the photo of the microphone;


"DSD and high-speed PCM both sound very clean, but for me they lack the dynamics, warmth, and depth of both the direct sound and of the first-generation analog. The best analogy I can make is comparing a classic tube monoblock power amp--transformer-coupled, with very little loop negative feedback--with a squeaky-clean solid-state amp that uses huge amounts of feedback to obtain infinitesimally low distortion specifications. If you want an amplifier to create sinewave test tones, then the solid-state amp is supreme. But if you want to listen to Rachmaninoff, Sibelius, or Elvis, for me the classic old tube amp will communicate more dynamics and more music."

Kegger, remember this when the packages arrive.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1938
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say Larry's link posted on Tuesday, August 03, 2004 - 11:11 am is a review of Project K622. Those interested in the technical details, on which the reviewer is a bit short, might like larry's later link to Stereophile link which I also noticed following the one jan gave, above. it is amazing Larry's guy did not try the Lp version. Also, no DVD-A.
http://www.stereophile.com/musicrecordings/804k622/index4.html

Over this side of the pond, this is a little company that has won all sorts of awards. I have a number of their CDs and DVD-As and they are all outstanding.
http://www.kaproductions.co.uk/expertise.htm

They record in 24-bit even for CD.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1092
Registered: Dec-03
hey jan, i don't need to be reminded. i'm allready
on it my man.

i wonder though jan if thinks this way about those,
what does he think of cd?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 94
Registered: Jun-04
I was wondering if anyone knows if "upsampling" redbook CD's sounds any better than what we get on the CD? Yes, I can see how it might be "interpolated" or changed in some way to get the waveform smoother. And yes, it is not tube sounding, still digital. But, if it can make the sound noticably smoother (like violin solos not sounding like scratching fingernails on chalkboard!!!) then why not do it?

Here is an interesting quote from a company's forum where someone describes how to upsample better than what this company's product can do:

"I would like to give my opinion on this:
Simply Up-sampling a 16 Bit 44.1Khz CD audio file to 192/32 in "Adobe Audition", then downsampling to 96Khz and Saving as 32 Bit Float/24 Bit Int. produces far tighter bass, smoother mid-ranges, and cleaner highs than the "Sound Enhancement" done by DVD+Audio..."

So if one had a couple of software packages and a DVD burner, one could have better sounding CD's
UploadUploadUpload
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Goldenarrow - I have not had personal experience with the latest goings on in digital and I easily admit the perturbations of digital have left me in the dark. I read the descriptions of what is being done and I want to go read my tube substitution tables. I mean, why did we go forward after the 12AX7 was designed? New digital makes my eyes water. I can understand how DSD works, somewhat, and that the basis for one bit technology can be interpolated into an oversampling of the original 16 bit information. But ... one of the early complaints about digital (particularly CD) was the 16 bit format of Compact Disc was never truly achieved as the mechanism of things such as "the least significant bit" and dither meant that the real resolution capability of 16 bit/44.1kHz sampling as the CD standard meant that by playback you were actually down to no more than 14 bits and sometimes could go as low as 12 bit resolution. I've not seen anyone address how that has changed in the past 20 + years. So unless I've missed something very important, which is possible because I do get lost in the explanations now days, I'm having a very hard time understanding how upsampling to tremendous levels at any point in the loop can do much with what is, for all intents and purposes, a medium resolution format. The comparison to an Atari 400 was made more than once in the digital vs. anaolg wars.

That said there have been increases in the technology of CD such as better lasers, better transports (?), and just better parts all around at the higher price ranges. But that has no real effect on the purely digital side of playback. Maybe someone who keeps up with digital can do a good job of explaining.
I also have suspicions about the industry's intentions here. SACD and DVD-A have not taken off the way anyone would have hoped and both are in danger of being superceded by more contemporaray technology. So here is a music industry and audio industry that has promoted (licensing and format battles aside) technologies that displace the perfect sound forever format. When the improved technology doesn't seem to be of interest to a society that is more interested in convenience than performance*, the perfect sound forever is then promoted as better than perfect sound and possibly better then what is better than perfect sound. Maybe I've just been laying out here in the sun too long, doing my job, watching for bad guys and scratchin' and lickin' some parts when necessary, but I feel somebody yanking on my chain.

*As I read it, several of the driving forces behind advances in CD playback technology is entirely based on percieved improvements in playback within your automobile. Audiophiles now exist in traffic but not leisure. 70 MPH or bust!
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 166
Registered: Jul-04
JV - the stands I use now came from Circuit City, and weigh about five pounds each. They are probably sub-standard as far as you more advanced audiophiles are concerned - but at the time I bought them I was more interested in just getting the speakers up off the floor than in "tuning" them. I have ordered some new stands from a British company - hollow tubes with "grit" inside them to dampen vibration, as you suggest. But who knows when they'll get here?
Listening, listening again today, and I'm still bothered by distorted "edges" on the sound. Ragged sound when an opera singer goes for the hi-volume sound, etc. I guess that the CD player exchange may convince me that the player I now have is the weak link? Stay tuned. . .
After reading the Stereophile article on the K622 Project I'm even more concerned about which way the future of recorded sound will go - SACD, DVD-A - or a format yet to be determined? Sigh.
I leave prognostication to you more educated folk, and head for the Scotch! GRIN
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 167
Registered: Jul-04
J. Vigne et al - a bit confused re your earlier post on "cones." You refer to ceramic cones used in kilns - but I think perhaps you are mistaken here, at least in even thinking about using them to support any stereo equipment. My wife uses these cones, and they are about a half-inch across at the wide end, tapering to a point, with about an inch and a half of "shaft." It would be hard, indeed, to use these for support. Maybe there are other cones in a ceramics kiln, but I've never seen ones that would do the job you describe. Open to argument here. . . Larry R.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 95
Registered: Jun-04
J.Vigne,

Thanks for the thoughts on digital vs. vinyl. And I hear what you say regarding CD being an inferior format. The info on 12 or 14 bit playback makes sense, especially when listening to the lousy dynamic range of some of the earlier CD's. No doubt, audiophiles have been shell-shocked over the years by the crummy sound of CD.

That said, I apologize if I misinterpreted this thread, twilight of the CD, to mean something other than "vinyl shall rise again" or something similar to that. I currently do not have a turntable and was taking the title of the thread to be more literal, in that we should get rid of CD redbook and replace it with something better, still in the digital arena. Perhaps I should post my question on another more appropriate thread???
What do you think?

Also, since my focus was not on vinyl, I was attemping to deal with a reality that most consumers of the past 20 years must deal with. Now that we have these things called CD's, how do we improve them, if possible? Dumping them and buying vinyl does not help, I am committed to the digital realm mostly because of economics and space concerns (and some convenience factor as well).

The only thing I would disagree with you is the assumption that CD was sold to me as the "perfect" media. I have heard stories of the original push for CD in that vein but I never considered it in my purchases. I went to the store and found CD's so that is what I bought. I was never really involved with vinyl except as a teenager (when I had other things on my mind!).

I simply want my existing CD redbook discs to sound better, not perfect.

goldenarrow
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J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
I wasn't advocating everyone should return to vinyl or tubes. There are plenty of reasons to use a CD player, I do for much of my listening for no other reason than convenience and the ability to get the music I want to hear. The concept of this thread is John A.'s and you will have to have him explain what he meant by the title. My reference to the analog vs. digital wars was simply to point out that the standards for Compact Disc were established in the mid to late 70's when Atari was the only computer most of us had in our home (good ol' Pong). By the time the format actually made it to the street, the advances in digital technology had lept over the CD stsandards and yet here we are, 20 years later, still listening to what is the equivalent of an Atari computer from the 70's. Is there anyone who still has a 386 processor? We have moved on but CD has stayed with the old standards.
CD was pushed (and pushed is the right word here) as perfect sound even as the deficencies of CD became obvious. It appears to me the marketing folks have just been foolin' with us.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 99
Registered: Jun-04
J.Vigne,

Yes, I am waking up to the fact that the marketing of CD was not in my best interests. I find it painful to listen to many of my CD's, convenient or not. Now that I have heard higher-rez source, and it gets very close to the original master tapes (not the same but still pretty darn good), I want to hear that all the time.

It is my contention also that software always lags hardware advances and couple that with the powers that be that want to milk the public for profit, higher rez media could have come out years ago. Maybe we should make the prediction here that new x-kHz/Mhz/Ghz high-rez hardware will always be available and that the "software" (the music and videos) will never keep up, constantly forcing the public on an endless treadmill of upgrading. Its the whole Intel-Microsoft Upgrade Syndrome applied to everything. Next thing will be to get rid of our cars and homes because they are not "upgradable" to the latest new,new,new thing. This is why I recommend to people to invest least in electronics because it will probably be thrown away in 2 years' time.

Notice how CD's are practically being given away, less than $10 and still dropping in price. Thing is, it costs less than a dollar to press and ship these things and they still try to sell for a high price. People are turning away from it. Instinctively they know there is something better. But now it will be multichannel and all its difficulties in creating a quality recording.

I do disagree with one point, in that the reason for the slow take-off of SACD and DVD-A is not that it cannot sound better than CD (it does), but that a lot of early SACD/DVD-A recordings are either redundant to someone's CD library or they are poorly mixed, relying too much on the "wow effect" of multichannel. I well done CD can still sound better than a poorly done SACD/DVD-A (especially if the multichannel mixing is annoying to listen to!!!). The second reason is the cost of getting to multichannel, the speakers and amps alone cost a small fortune. And the affordable stuff is a big turn-off to listen to. Truly High-end gear needs to be sold at Sam's Club and Costco but the boutique dealers would then go out of business. So here we sit, IMO.

This leads to a way to take advantage of this upgrading situation. Software is slowly advancing and I am hopeful that "studio editing tools" will get cheap enough to allow me to afford a mixing package. All I am looking for is to take the old stereo CD's and find a cheap way to make it sound smoother, cleaner. I don't want to throw them out. There must be a way to do so economically (and I think it is coming soon - that's why I quoted that guy in my previous post).

Thanks for the historical perspective!

goldenarrow
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Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1093
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow



...............Y E P..............
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1094
Registered: Dec-03
and yes on another thread you may get more people
chimming in and learn something their to.

but i dought you get the quality discussion it will
garner hear. just give it some time to build up.
"maybe post it somewhere else to and bring fresh
info hear."

the reason i say this is most on this thread want
to have rational civil discussions and learn something.
"where other threads may turn ugly"

i for one definately would like to improve my cd
quality. "i have so many cd's" i'm thinking of
getting an external dac maybe with upsampling. i
just haven't done any real research yet with everything
else i have going on.

i'm sure john a will chime in with his views shortly.

and i'm sure he will agree your post is welcome
and wanted.

thanks for joining.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1095
Registered: Dec-03
golden this statement right hear.

"This is why I recommend to people to invest least in electronics because it will probably be thrown away in 2 years' time."

that's what i've been saying on another thread.

we upgrade so often for newer formats that to me
it makes sence to find the "bang for the buck"
product (in those catagories) dvd/reciever mainly.
so your not wasting rediculis sums of cash on every
upgrade.

good point.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1941
Registered: Dec-03
"i'm sure john a will chime in with his views shortly...and i'm sure he will agree your post is welcome and wanted."

Thanks, kegger!

"The concept of this thread is John A.'s and you will have to have him explain what he meant by the title"

Thanks, Jan!

goldenarrow, you are indeed welcome.

I started this thread on April 14 with the following three links:

Twilight of the Compact Disc
DVD-Audio
NAD T533 DVD/CD player user's review, and DVD-Audio

They are still active, you might be interested, and I know you have already contributed to at least one. Though of course you are welcome here; I am not diverting you. You have the attention, here, of people in you own league, as regards understanding audio, and willingness to learn.

My intention with the first post on this thread was simply to flag those three other threads, in different categories, under the catogory "DVD-Audio & SACD": this was brand new at that time, and had just been introduced my admin, at the suggestion of a few of us here.

My energy for all this evangelising, not my natural activity, came from having learned about DVD-Audio, on other threads; bought a DVD-Audio player; and heard, at once, that we had all, indeed, been duped at the time of the introduction of CD. Nothing has changed my opinion.

If you do not remember "The Compact Disc. Perfect Sound that Lasts Forever" then you were not around, or in hiding somewhere, in 1983. It was a massive brand-positioning onslaught. The picture was of a graceful, young, female hand (nice manicure; expensive but tasteful jewelry) holding up a shiny, elegant, and very unfamiliar new sort of disc. It was illuminatied from all sides, and projecting all the colours of the rainbow, like some magical talisman. The whole thing was gorgeous and literally seductive. It was on roadside advertising hordings, slots on prime-time TV, full-page ads in quality newspapers and glossy magazines. Full marks to the advertising agency. It worker like a charm. It WAS a charm.

The problem is, we now KNOW the medium was a flawed, and the Philips, who places the ad pretty well everywhere in Europe (don't know about N. Amercica) KNEW AT THE TIME THAT THE CLAIMS WERE FALSE. On both counts. Read their promotional material on SACD, and you will see. And, as you, point out (thanks also, Jan), the superiority of SACD over CD is mostly demonstrated now by re-issues of analogue master tapes recorded years before CD was thought of.

CD meant many things to many people. But the slogan summed up many people's desires for buying sound recordings. Certainly mine. The part "...that lasts forever" chimed with all sorts of envirmental concerns which were prominent at that time, and still are.

I am getting a little repetitive on this, by now, like a cracked gramphone record; a jumping CD would just leave it out. But the point I make, again, here, is this.

The industry LIED to us in 1983. It was like Mr Hitler's advice "If you tell a lie, make sure it is the biggest lie: then people will not reconise it for what it is".

So, why should we believe these guys again, a mere 21 years later?

Part of the massive success of CD was people throwing away their large LP collections merely to replace them with CD. There is no question the original intention of SACD was to get us all to do that all over again; this time, chucking away all those CDs.

All I would say is that it is time to realise "the industry" (some parts of it, notably but not exclusively the Sony-Philips axis) take us all for complete fools. Therefore we should take stock, ourselves, of what the technology has to offer, decide what we want and expect from it, and think about how we intend to spend our money, before we rush out like lemmings doing what the industry wants. That last bit will be the decisive thing for what happens after CD. CD is dead in the water for convenience, and blown away for sound quality, by the industry's own admission.

I understand completely your point about already owning many CDs. So do I. Let us, then, not repeat our mistakes. Do not get rid of your CDs. Do not sell even one; you will regret it. They are part of your life. Get the best CD player you can afford. But also realise there was something better before (LP; open reel tape) and there are certainly digital media with better sound quality available now. If you get a new CD player, and value sound quality, it is only common sense for it to be a DVD and/or SACD player too.

That's about it, guys. goldenarrow, some of these friends here have really learned how to push the button!

Also recommended, some of the same crowd getting even deeper into what the whole thing is all about, in the first place:-

Teaching an old dog new tricks...
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Goldenarrow - Nothing against you, but I now see this forum will, with all its word prohibitions, allow both Sam's Club and crap to appear.

John A. - Really john, I think you're being a bit haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaSLAM! SCREW DIGITAL!!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1102
Registered: Dec-03
john i'm not saying this statemeant is true or not.

"There is no question the original intention of SACD was to get us all to do that all over again; this time, chucking away all those CDs."

it may be. but i don't see how you can claim it to
be fact.

if sony/phillips developed a new tech that was better
sounding than cd what were they to do! not make it?
and not put out disks they had allready put out?

many people complain they can't get the titles they
allready own on cd and would love to have it on high rez.

i for one am very very glad that we have sacd.
i own about 500 cd's and still have no problem with sacd.

i just want better sound however it happens.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1103
Registered: Dec-03
another little thing to add.

I was using 8-trax's and cassettes when cd came
out so for me cd far superior to what i had.

 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 105
Registered: Jun-04
J.Vigne,

I repent of using the "Sams Club" phrase (although I do find myself shopping at Walmart once in a while!). Please find it in your heart to forgive me.......(whimper, whimper).

Kegger,

I think my brother owned an 8-track and a Girard turntable and that is what I listened to. And my sister owned an old 45 rpm portable. And we liked listening to it!

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 106
Registered: Jun-04
John A.,

Wow! I barely remember those ads about CD and its supposed promises. It is amazing how a whole generation, like me, was led like a sheep to be sheared. And I was a oblivious to it.

In understanding history, I hope I can strive to include what is different as well. What seems to be different is not that there are new technological changes (I won't say "advances"), but that these changes are happening faster. The old tape deck I used to listen to lasted a good 6 or 7 years from what I remember. If I had a really good quality one, it would have lasted a lot longer. Compare that with the DVD Player I just bought that was only on the market for 11 months before it got canned. For me, it makes sense to be skeptical but not cynical. I think cynicism would keep me from realizing that there are actual improvements that are worth the price of admission. That is why I am going very slowly to add SACD/DVD-A discs. I like the sound but I cannot buy into all the hype. Especially as you have pointed out that many times, stereo is better than multichannel. In the same way, a well-made CD can be better than a poorly made high-rez disc.

I think my "Sams Club" comment to JV was more to do with my reaction to the hype of multichannel and to some who would promote the philosophy that one must spend and arm and a leg to get into the "club" of audiophiledom (hence my comment to one person on another thread about not having to sell my body parts on eBay!). I have been enjoying a couple of well made high-rez stereo-only discs - but they are high-rez, not CD redbook. Thanks to you and others who have helped me understand.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 169
Registered: Jul-04
John A. et al - more on the K622 project. I heard back from the chap who did the testing, and I've tried to paste his e-mail HERE.

To answer your e-mail, first a brief description of my system. I have a dedicated 20v. circuit devoted entirely to my stereo system with no other devices or video sharing. I use FIM hardened wall outlets and go directly to an ExactPower 1000 regenerator which supplies clean, constant sine wave, low distortion power to all of my components (including my amp). All components in turn are connected to the regenerator via Harmonic Technology Fantasy top-of-the-line power cords. My CD/SACD player is a Philips SACD 1000 modified by Alex Peychev. The pre-amp I use is a heavily modified Conrad Johnson PV-12 with Mullard NOS tube. My amp is the Spectron Digital One Class D and my speakers are bi-wired B & W Nautilus 802's. The interconnects are all Audience AU-24's and the speaker cable are Alpha Core Goertz MI-2's. At a recent shoot-out I hosted between my APL SACD 1000 and a Meitner DCC2 DAC, the participants (knowledgeable members of the San Diego Music and Audio Guild) concluded that my system was exceptionally well balanced and highly resolving.

It's obviously very difficult in a listening test to separate out the fidelity characteristics due to production short coming and the fidelity characteristics due to CD vs. SACD reproduction. All I can say its that the engineering shortcomings I noted in my review were consistently apparent in all four implementations i.e. analog master to PCM, DSD master to PCM, analog master to DSD, and finally DSD master to DSC. And therefore I concluded that these shortcomings were due to an engineering process that produced a very lean sound, lacking in natural warmth and realism, and presented on a fairly flat soundstage (as I described in my review).

On the other hand, there were measureable differences between the four versions which logically could only be due to the alternate CD vs SACD formats. Those included noticeable improvements toward a more ambient airy soundstage -- a feeling on more space surrounding the instruments -- and a noticeable increase in micro dynamics in the analog to DSD version. As I said in my review, you simply heard more cues in the music, and despite the limitations of the engineering effort, a somewhat more real sound. Finally, in the pure DSD version inaddition to the above, there was much improved overall transparency and immediacy to the music.

Anyway - that FYI - as I know you don't like unknown quantities or loose ends. If you like, I can send along his e-mail address?
Hope you understand it all - I don't. LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 171
Registered: Jul-04
Uh, twice burned is twice learned?
Sigh. Well, guyz, I went back into the bowels of Best Buy (shudder) today, and found a left-over Toshiba 3960 - out on the shelf for the "take-away" price of $61. Took it. Brought it. Set it up. Tried to play it. Pfffffttttttt. Nudding kame out. did all sorts of thangs, and finally figured out that it just wasn't about to play. Took it back, and the mope at BB said "Oh, you're the second guy to bring that back today." Huh? Guess I'd been had royally - and now am just going to sit and wait until the new NEW players come out later this Fall.
I hear such good pre-reports on the Samsung 941 - due out end of September. On another thread I note that the player will have a rather "standard" Philips chip - so should have quality sound for SACD. Sigh. Hope so.
Am betting that my sound problems will be generally solved with a new player.
BTW - I understand the the Samsung and the highly-rated Denon players have the same chip!
Away to reading (what/s dat??) Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1944
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, Larry, I appreciate that. What I would really like to do is get the recordings myself, hear them, and have a look at the specs for all stages. I can understand the guy's general conclusion, provided "PCM" means CD-quality (44/16), and if the analogue master was not so good. I am with Jan on this, I think. I would predict the best sound would be analogue -> analogue (missing) and after that analogue -> LPCM (MLP makes no difference) at 192/24 or 96/24 (also missing, probably, though he is not specific about the resolution). One would also need some assurance that the mixes were the same in all cases. I must emphasise, yet again, I have not heard DSD, so I could never do his test. I would only be able to compare DVD-A level PCM with LP and CD. I have a pretty good idea which would come last.

goldenarrow,

You are welcome. It is late, here. I will consider, and report back. I do not exaggerate about that advertisement.

Going back to tweaks, this afternoon I filled my Target speaker stands with cat litter. Thanks again, J. Vigne! I am not sure it affects the sound of the speakers, but it is a good precaution, and I shall do some more listening. The stands no longer ring, they make a nice dull clunk, when I rap them with my knuckles. The unintended consequence is that my family members all think I have finally flipped completely. BTW If any one would like one of the five new, black kittens thus deprived of back-up hygiene in our daughters' bedroom, I shall gladly send one as an e-mail attachment...
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1946
Registered: Dec-03
BTW I am, myself, far from immune to the occasional typo, but Larry's quote from the K622 guy has the entertaining "all four implementations i.e.....and finally DSD master to DSC". Personally I would go the whole hog and convert it to DOC. Much better. Jan, surely, will understand, and be able to explain what "DOC" stands for. I think it basically it means "good stuff" or "the real McCoy", but in Italian.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1105
Registered: Dec-03
well i just got a very very good price on a Theta Chroma 396
dac at a local hifi shop. ill report later if it
does anything for my pioneer 563a and redbook.

keeping my fingers crossed.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 173
Registered: Jul-04
Heck, John, I don't even pretend to understand what all youze guyz talk about in tech language. I just passed along what the chap sent to me, in hopes that it would help clarify your issues with the test record, etc. Tried to be helpful.
I give up here - my dear wife and I got to Santa Fe for a week of live opera and great food on Tuesday - and I can forget all my travails with hi-fi sound for awhile.
I'll be back "in the saddle" on August 18, and hope to get a new SACD player about a month later. Meanwhile, I guess I'll just slop along and read all of youze guyz' postings with a tad of envy. Sigh. Keep dah faith! Larry R.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 16
Registered: Aug-04
Larry R

I have noted you always mention getting a SACD player. I do not see DVD-A on your wish list. It would be, IMHO, a mistake not to get a universal player compatible with both formats. To me, both of these hi-res formats are truly wonderful - when the recording is good, of course.

Enjoy the opera in Santa Fe!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1106
Registered: Dec-03
..............Y E P...............
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 61
Registered: Jun-04
...and twice as many discs to buy
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 174
Registered: Jul-04
My Rantz - well, sir, I can only spread myself so thin in this "hobby" of mine - which is fast becoming more of a headache than hobby. Sigh.
I'm collecting SACD hybrids now, but have no DVD-A discs. If the whole thing crashes and DVD-A becomes the norm, well, so be it, I guess. I look at the catalogs and find NOTHING in DVD-A that interests me - so I go with more CDs and try for SACDs - and bet on the format.
As to a "universal" player - well, if such is available within my price range, I'll get it. If it boils down to a player that has only SACD, CD and DVD, well, I'll go that way for now.
I frankly don't think I'm going to live long enough to enjoy the end-game of all of this, anyway (I'm 68) so I have to do this: buy the best player that I can afford with the formats I'm betting on - and buying.
Right now, from what my engineer-friend in LA is telling me - I will look closely at the new Samsung 941 - the new Sony (model unknown) and the replacement for the Philips 963 - all to come out in late September.
He says that the Samsung should be a real bargain - so I will see what the critics say. I just don't think I can go over $500 for a player, in good conscience. My amp and speakers don't call for it. And I may dump the Polks and bite the bullet and go with the B & W 705s anyway, even if I have to finance them.
Sigh again - I'm getting tired of all this work to get good sound. At my age, I really want to relax and enjoy the music - period!
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 62
Registered: Jun-04
Oh... and Larry, will you bring a 96K recorder to make world's first hi-rez bootleg for us?

Safe trip
AL
 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 109
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold had posted a link elsewhere to a lady who did tests on vinyl vs. digital. Looks like Larry should buy a turntable after all! CD's as frisbees and drink coasters lookin' better and better. But you all probably know this already.

http://users.bigpond.net.au/christie/comparo/part4.html

Upload
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1948
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

I am surprised at being a able to confuse anyone with tech talk. I won't start again, except to say that any digital recording samples the analogue sound so many times each second. One Hz is a frequency of one sample per second. 1 kHz is frequency of one thousand (kilo-) samples per second, CD makes it up to 44 thousand samples per second (44 kHz). Then you have to consider the range of each sample, between zero sound (0) and max signal. A bit is a unit of binary information; how much you learn when you are told whether a coin has come down one of either heads or tails. Eight bits gives you the information for eight coins (8 twos multiplied together; 256 possible combinations of heads and tails). Max signal for a 16 bit sample is 16 twos multiplies together, which is 65,536. Max signal for a 24 bit sample is 256 times that (24 = 16 + 8) which is the same as 24 twos multiplied together, which is 16,777,216.

So the resolution (all the possible values between zero and maximum) of 24 bit samples is much greater than that of 16 bit samples. And, in addition as you go from CD to DVD-A, the number of samples taken per second can go up from 44 thousand to 96 or even 192 thousand. No wonder it sounds a whole lot more like the original. Sound is analogue, in the first place.

My problem with that review is that it is a bit like the guy commenting on photographs, of the same subject, taken with different sorts of digital camera, with different file formats (encoding), without telling us anything about the file size, number of pixels, or image depth. Then you might ask about lighting conditions etc. and he doesn't seem to have thought of that, either.

When he effectively says the equivalent of "The Nikon camera, using jpeg compression, gave better pictures", and rambles off into subjective assessment of skin tones, comparing them with various sorts of fruit, then you wonder where he is coming from, and who paid him.

The whole comparison is fundamentally bananas, and I can't see the point.

BTW I agree with MR. As an opera guy you might especially like DVD.

However, you are going to hear the real thing. That is analogue. I personally think the real thing wins, every time, hands down.

Arnold, love it, it would be easy to make a good hi-res bootleg with two stereo microphones and a laptop. Care to join me? Difficult to hide under the gear, though, though. We might look a bit conspicuous at an opera, in New Mexico, in summer, with big overcoats.

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 175
Registered: Jul-04
John A. - thanks and, uh, very nice try - but I still get mind-numb when trying to figger out things electronic. I think I may have been born with brain-deficit in some areas? GRIN
But yes - DVD for opera is the best for me. Opera being one form of "entertainment" that cries out to be seen, as well as heard. Oh, the arias are sublime, but so far as full production is concerned, I just can't deal with CDs. A friend of mine (whom we will meet in Santa Fe, BTW) ONLY listens to full operas - eschews the aria-discs. Sigh. To each his own, I guess.
On a somber note - one of our old friends also to join us for SF-opera just e-mailed me that she goes into the hospital on Tuesday - suspected stomach cancer. A few tears here - and hope that she will come out of the tests "clean." Always jolts "Old Dogs" like me when friends - especially younger friends (she's 49) come under the bad health-cloud. Maybe that's why I'm so anxious to get my stereo settled down - I never know how many "good listening moments" I may have left - and I want to savor each one!
This will probably be my last post until Merri and I return - August 18. Thanks for the Bon Voyage wishes - and I'll give a BRIEF review of our trip later.
Will do another thread-check tonight, but now just wish a temporary Goodbye. Larry R.
P.S. - not taking overcoats to SF! GRIN
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1951
Registered: Dec-03
All the best, Larry!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1116
Registered: Dec-03
well the new dac seems to knock the edge off cd's.

the overly bright ones that are kinda breaking up at
the top end sound more natural now.

so i think so far as i can tell it's an improvement
to the internal dacs on the pioneer.

more listening is needed to gave a full report.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1162
Registered: Dec-03
KNOCK KNOCK!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
hubder?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1172
Registered: Dec-03
TYPHOON!
 

J.Vigne
Unregistered guest
tyfunehu?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1190
Registered: Dec-03
Cheese Souffle!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1406
Registered: Dec-03
sunami?
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