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Archive through August 02, 2004

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 877
Registered: Dec-03
been nice looking system their.

larry i agree a sub and a universal dvd player
your all set and should sound very nice.

john i'm still thinking a tube preamp for you
until you either save enough to get a worthy tube
amp and or decide you still need/want one.
i don't know how it is in your neck of the woods
but over hear i have a lot of choices in the used market.

the reason i'm saying tube preamp is because it's cheaper
than an amp or integrated and may give you enough
of the "tube sound" while you can allways add an
amp later if you want.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 56
Registered: Jul-04
Ben; John A.; Kegger -
Trying to play "catch-up" here this morning. Ben, I hope that you in no way saw my comments as being negative or challenging. Certainly did not mean that way . . Thanks for posting your equipment, though, frankly, most of it went over my head, as I don't "keep up" with all the brands available. Sounds like you have what, for me, would truly be a "dream" system. Sigh. Way out of my retirement-income price range - but then, in life, we all have to make compromises.
I'm looking forward to Fall, when I can begin (again) searching for better stereo gear. Kegger and John A., I'm banking on your corroboration that the DVD/SACD player and sub will help out measurably.
I have a very hard time coming home after listening to my friend's hi-end gear, for sure! I try to remember that the music,not the equipment, is what I must focus on, for that contains the "soul" of my listening experience.
I see on my computer that I have backed-up lines of messages on other threads, so I'll be merciful and STOP here! GRIN Thanks, LR
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1790
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, I am not going to buy anything in the near future. I am happy with the audio systems I've got, and am just storing all this away for future reference. Probably the next thing will have to be a video projector, maybe some time next year, now, though we did promise ourselves one before the extended "Return of the King" comes out. Democracy rules in our home.

My interest in tubes/valves is roused, though, and thanks for that!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1792
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

"I'm banking on your corroboration that the DVD/SACD player and sub will help out measurably. "

I think the player will make all the difference. Try playing an ordinary CD on your friend's system, and compare.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 58
Registered: Jul-04
John A.
Yes, sir, I have played many of my CDs on my friend's Marantz-Sunfire-Martin Logan system - and yes, they DO sound better there. BUT - is it the player - the amp - the speakers - ALL of them? Of course, each has an obvious advantage of my components. Hard to separate. . .
BTW - the DG discs I've carped about here - they sound fairly "horrible" on my friend's system, as well - so I know that it is not just my player that is at fault there.
As I have the "run of the place" while he's Up North for the summer, I tend to gravitate to his home a lot! He, of course, knows this, and welcomes my presence there - makes his home looked "lived-in" and less of a target for burglars, etc.
Down here in SW Florrid-Uh! there are so many empty homes from late April through October! You can drive for dozens of blocks and not find any home that isn't "locked down" and shuttered. The security-types love it - big bucks for them. The burglars love it - many are sophisticated enough to bypass alarm systems and make off with million-dollar paintings, etc. Such is the life of The Rich. Sigh.
Anyway - awaiting fall, and the new CD/DVD models. If you, et al, see any new ones that fascinate you, please post same here. LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 878
Registered: Dec-03
oh yah i understand john.

and i'm sure you took it this way.
but what i said was surely not meant as this is what
you should do.

but more of from what i have learned lately. that
may be a logical course of action."again just my oppinion"

and a good higher powered tube amp is pretty darn
expensive.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1828
Registered: Dec-03
Jan and Kegger, especially, though anyone:-

Any views on the "Affordable Valve Company" and especially its EL34 reviewed here?
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 476
Registered: Feb-04
John A

It would seem you could have a lot to gain and nothing to lose. Interesting sales concept - should be more of it!

The EL34 looks rather impressive though it would seem that listening sessions would need planning for those without alternative amplification. Eg: remembering to turn it on an hour before guests arrive.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 912
Registered: Dec-03
well john from what i can tell a straight forward
design nothing to complicated. "a good thing"
should be easier to service.

looks like a typical old school design.
same output tubes as say, a dynaco st-70.

should have old school sound. "mellow,slightly rolled highs and lows"

price seems descent.

and looks solidly made from the limited pictures.

40watts a channel. from the research i've been doing
lately is pretty typical of a design like that.
"anywhere between 25 to 45"

should give plenty of output for speakers of about
90db sens.

has a 30day trial to find out if the sound is too
relaxed for you.

well that is my assestment with the little knowlage
i've gained lately.

i'm sure jan can chime in with more accurate info.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John - I am not certain how to respond to this product. There are so many products that I have read good review on and I am not overly impressed by what I actually hear (a matter of personal taste). And there are so many products I have never heard. On the other hand there are usually reasons a company can stay around for awhile.
The Grammophone review is good and, unless they have changed their policy, they were never given to excessive kindness in their review process.
I have sung the praises of tubes for twenty five years and believe that a good tube amp will always be more listenable than a good transistor amp if you are interested in the sound of real music. But I have heard almost as many bad tube amps as I have bad solid state amps, if you don't count the crummy recievers most companies are selling. And tube amps sound as unalike from each other as any solid state amp will. Tubes are not the secret to good sound. Tubes are a technology that is not fully understood by many people who try to build a tube amplifier, the variables in how to extract the most from a tube are incredibly complex (at least as I read them) and just making tubes pass sound does not guaranty really good sound.
That said, as I look at the web site for the company, they have good parts quality for their price range (which I assume, with the exchange rate, is about $1,000-$1,200) which puts them in the mid price range of tube amps. Selling direct means you are not paying the usual dealer mark up so that puts them in the $1,500-$2,000 range. That should buy you a good, more than entry level tube amp.
EL34's are a very popular tube and can give good sonics with little effort on the designers part; more often than not, the best EL34 amps I've heard are often very simple designs. And doing the upgraded Svetlana tubes would be the way to go, not the cheaper Chinese tubes. You can be certain there will be EL34's for replacements for a long time to come.
The amps use, from what I can tell, an Ultralinear hookup, which is what gave the Dynaco amps their famous sound quality. But the web site doesn't make much of this fact. The Ultralinear aspect is mostly glossed over as if it weren't important. Maybe it's not to this company but the real art of tube design is the transformers which were the key to Ultralinear operation. I would have preferred to see more on the transformer design and construction instead of just "really huge transformers". Really huge doesn't necessarily mean really well built. Power supply is treated the same way, not much said about how they get their sound quality from the amp. They also have an upgrade that "tunes" the Ultralinear circuit with more parts. Huh? I don't understand that statement.
The web site repeats over and over how their customers prefer their amps to more expensive products but that isn't that unusual/impressive given the nature of some audiophiles.
Some of the company's arguments are somewhat laughable in their simplicity but that may just be the way they want their web page laid out. I think I might give them a call and see how they discuss their product over the phone.
Class A operation is a full out balls to the wall room heater. It's not unusual for a tube amp to sound better after warm up (my Macs sound better after about three days of heating three big iron core transformers rather than just turn them on when I want to listen so they stay on all the time) but Class A means they are running very hot. Not a problem but just something to be concerned about.
More importantly if you read their web site they say the amps run in Class A at low levels. Well most everything that runs in Class AB is at Class A at "low levels". So I am going to guess that the two output tubes per channel are hooked up in what amounts to a push pull circuit and the amp doesn't run in Class A past a few watts like any other Class AB amp. That would, technically, make it a Class AB amp not Class A. That make their statements about the benefits of Class A operation on the sound quality of their amps rather suspect.
So there are a few things I don't understand from their web site.
That means you have 30 days to decide whether the sound is what you want. You have to weigh the minimal cost against the hassle of finding out if this is an amp you like.
If there are shops around that sell other manufacturers' tube amps you might be able to work out a deal where you can borrow an amp for audition or arrange a purchase with a return policy. I own some equipment that most people don't know about so I'm not afraid of small companies. But I'm concerened about small start ups where they may not be around in a few years. That is a variable only you can decide upon.
Don't know if that helps.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1831
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, My Rantz, Kegger, and especially Jan.

MR. You don't turn them on an hour before. You have them on all the time, so I understand!

All. If I try these, it will not be until 2005 for many large practical, not to say financial, reasons. So I cannot promise any feedbackon your comments in the near future. For price, these amps are pitched against the Primaluna China-through-the-Netherlands amp raved about recently by the usually curmudgeonly Kessler in HiFi News (July).

This direct sale business is something I have only heard about on this forum, with US speakers such as Magnepan, Ohm, etc. I suddenly find a nice-looking valve amp and also the Richard Allan BBC LS3/5a speakers are sold direct from manufacturer to customer in the UK. It is interesting.

I guess each partner to the direct-sale transaction needs to build trust, and there is probably almost no useful legal back-up to either party if something goes wrong and the sale is international. Though computer companies such as Apple and Dell find some way around that. The small manufacturer, selling to a specialist market, probably does not want to get involved in all the hassle and overheads of international retailing.

Anyway, all your comments are well received. If I give it a go, I will certainly report back, but it will be many months away.

Jan, I thank you for the comment on the Svetlana tubes (you have mentioned these before) and all your views. The clunkiness of their web site is OK with me. They are probably making amps, not html code. If you give them a call, try to let us know your impressions. BTW Did you pick up on the availability of a new line in LS3/5a, with added, matched sub......? Quad and Spendor speakers.

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 149
Registered: Dec-03
Now Jan...

You stating: "I have sung the praises of tubes for twenty five years and believe
that a good tube amp will always be more listenable than a good
transistor amp if you are interested in the sound of real music." really concerns me because it isn't really a statement of fact, but an opinion. If you really feel that way, great, but maybe you should not be so critical of the solid state/DBT/ABX crowd (I'm not one of them but I do own solid state).

I have heard great tube gear and great solid state gear, but can't say that one medium seemed more musical than the other. ESP when you slap a Massive Attack LP on the old turntable.

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 914
Registered: Dec-03
ben i run both good solid state and now recently
some tube gear and while i'm not going to the extremes
of jan.

their is a very noticable difference.

now to me how to describe it is subjective.

some/many do call it more musical.

some call it more analog sounding.

the best way i can describe the difference that i am
hearing would be smoother or mellow, all sounds
are more even, low level sounds are easier to hear.

a great transistor system can do this too but not
quite the same.

it's almost like the tube is a filter that just
smooths the ripples.

and older tube gear seems to do it even more. to
some people maybe to much.

don't get me wrong i love my solid stste gear for
sheer power and attack also really good solid state
can be very musical too. just tubes are different.

now i would be willing to bet that not everyone
is going to like or love what the tubes have to
offer. but for the ones that do it's sheer pleasure.

they got me hooked.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 72
Registered: Jul-04
Ben James, et al
Trying to follow this thread - but am unsuccessful. And now, Ben, you've REALLY got me confused, by using terms: "LP" and "turntable." What exactly are those - some new kind of DVD-A discs? Sounds like "new wave" to me!
TRIPLE GRIN HERE, GUYZ!!! Jest pullin' de ole leg. Respectfully - Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1835
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

"LP" refers to an analogue format for recorded sound, played on a "turntable". It came before DVD-A, which is digital. There was some other digital disc format, in between. It was not as good as either of those. I forget the name.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1837
Registered: Dec-03
"Compact Disc" aka "CD". It set the standard for the size of disc (12 cm diameter). They became very useful as a storage medium for computers, too.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 73
Registered: Jul-04
John A. et al
Oh, yes! I looked in my trusty encyclopaedia, and found "long-playing records." Records? Thought those were books they kept in the county buildings, showing births, deaths, etc. Hmmm.
Anyway - following up on that, I find that to make these "records" the people down in basements, etc. had Big Heavy Things that hung over a circular platter, which rotated. To make copies of the music, they lowered a sharp-pointed metal tool down onto the piece of plastic, then, as the circular platter rotated, CUT GROOVES into the disc. HAHAHAHAHAH Surely, somebody's pulling my leg, here? Cut grooves? How would they ever get SOUND out of that?
Then, as I read, people bought copies of these discs, put them on their own little versions of these rotating platters, and (this is beyond belief) had long, metal "arms" at the end of which were little electrical devices. And - HAHAHA can't believe this - all these had little NEEDLES on them! Right? And they put these little needles in the grooves in the plastic discs, and then, as the platters rotated, the needles "vibrated" in the grooves - and the things on the arms turned the vibrations into electrical charges, or sum-ting - and then it all went into what we now know as "amplifiers." Right?
Well - it's a wonder that we've got ANYTHING to reproduce sound!
Oh, yes - I've been using some of those CD things of yours - my wife and I go outside and throw them underhand at each other - sorta like FRisbees, you know. They're VERY GOOD!
OK - on to the next generation!
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1838
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

"Surely, somebody's pulling my leg, here? Cut grooves? How would they ever get SOUND out of that?"

That is just what I have always thought. The whole thing is like a complicated joke. Each step is just about plausible, but put together, the whole thing seems absurd. BTW, I thought the LPs were pressed, from master copies, made of metal. If soaked in really hot water, vinyl LPs could be moulded into nice flower pots, complete with ready-made drainage hole, which was where the flat LP was held in place on the turtable, by a sort of little turret, right on the axis of rotation.

You couldn't make flower pots with CDs. They didn't have the lip around the edge you need for a good frisbee, either. They made useful drink mats, or "coasters", though. The small pits at around the wavelength of light caused pretty diffraction effects, too, like oil on the surface of a puddle. Each pit was a bit of information, a one or a zero. Apparently, if you had enought of them, they could add up to make the exact waveform of a Mahler symphony or whatever, so you could use the same amp and speakers as for a turntable, playing an LP.

Strange, but true.

What colour is YOUR iPod, Larry.....?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1841
Registered: Dec-03
BTW before tubes/valves and transistors, record players did not need electricity at all; the vibrations from the needle were amplified into sound you could hear by a big horn, like the flared bell on a brass instrument. The first use of electricity was to drive a motor to make the table turn. Before that, you turned a handle to wind up a spring, like a clock. I like electrical gramophones, myself, always keen to try new technology. Here is a photo of a friend trying out his latest system. It is electrical, even for amplification (tubes, of course). It has a handle, just in case, like cars. State of the art. Awesome.

Upload

BTW I found this review of Elgar 3 CD. It is on DVD-A, too. It is wonderful. Photo of DVD-A on Dvd Empire Back; Front
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jul-04
OK, I'm afraid we may be getting the more serious-minded on this thread a bit upset with all of our ranting? But some comic relief is often called for, ain't it?
Don't have an iPod - not really sure what it is, though I've seen it advertised.
Great pic, John A. - I remember my grandmother's "gramophone," and it looked very much like your picture. Many happy memories, playing those old 78s - scratches and all. It's where I heard my first Beethoven, and my first opera - at the age of about four.
I do have to disagree with you re the CD-Frisbee issue - even without the "lip," they sail like crazy! GRIN
Drink coasters? Never thought of that, but tried it, and the big problem is that when moisture gets between the glass and the disc, well, the disc comes up along with the glass, and you have to sorta peel it off. Very awkward! Hmmm...
I did see a picture - can't remember where - of a person with more CDs than sense using about a hundred of them to decorate a Christmas tree! Hung them up by putting yarn through the holes, and letting them twist and turn in the light. As you said, the liddle pits and grooves make wonderful "rainbows" when the light hits them just right!
Hey - maybe that's what I can do with all of my old Deutsche Grammophon CDs! They look a lot better than they sound!
Sorta respectfully - - Larry R.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Gentlemen, I respectfully submit, for your approval, the encyclopedic entry for "phonograph".
To your pleasure and enlightenment I will herein refer to the grand and austere reference manual known as the "Imperial Reference Library", "A General Encyclopedia of Literature, History, Art, Science, Inventon and Discovery; a Pronouncing Dictionary of the English Language; a Gazetteer of the World; a Comprehensive Dictionary of Universal Biography, etc. ~~~~ ".
Edited by Professor Charles Smith Morris, A.M., L.L.D., of the Philadelphia Academy of Natural Sciences, with the assistance of Associate Editors and Special Contributors; and more than two hundred Specialists in the various Departments. Syndicate Publishing Company, 1905.

Phonograph, n. A distinct letter or character to denote a sound, and invariably one and the same sound in writing.

phonographer: One skilled in phonography.

Phonographic: Relating to phonography.

Phonography: A method of writing short-hand, invented by Isaac Pitman, in 1837; since that time, however, it has been considerably modified. ...

I can, regretfully, find no reference to any type of device, mechanical or scientific, in nature or design which corresponds to the fantastical descriptions you so kindly provide in your most recent correspondence. It is with my deepest, most heartfelt emotions, that I can only reach the conclusion that I must, on the basis of available information, be at least skeptical of your imagined "modern advancements" to the Art of the Universe.
I can, upon further enquiry and correspondence with available experts, find no substatiation of your claims for such a wondorous device and, therefore, must conclude, in the face of overwhelming Scientific Theory, that no such apparatus can or ever will exist.

Your further references to "LP', "CD", "DVD-A", "frisbee", "iPod", etc. are nowhere to be found in my reference materials and I can only conclude that you are making light of the New Style of Writing, a novel which, I believe, is referred to in the international press as Scientific Fiction.

I urge you to cease all such activities and possibly seek consultation with a good, knowledgeable Doctor of Medical Divination. Perhaps more, or less, of a particular herbal extraction is in order. I understand Absynthe is becoming increasingly popular in today's medical field of treatments.

I also find your Illustration to be quite peculiar. The large device which you have pictured is quite obviously a construction of the wildest of imaginations. You gentlemen are obviously trying to perpetrate a Hoax upon the poor unsuspecting souls who wish for the betterment of their pathetic lifes without the assistance of Modern Technology. The use of futuristic fashions of clothing are an obvious mistake on your part. The device which your "Actor" is handling is a poor construction of your fantasies. If this is not a cruel joke, you must, before I am forced to inform the Higher Authorities, stop all such actions and publications immediately!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1849
Registered: Dec-03
Mr Vigne,

It is not without a little dismay that I learn of your readiness to build so many fanciful ideas upon a simple terminological misunderstanding. However, I believe I may, with customary caution, speak for at least some of our other correspondents, in regretting our free use of the term "phonograph", and its synonym, "gramophone", to indicate a device for reproducing sound from a recording, all without further explanation.

However, we may consider the example of the recording technique introduced by your esteemed fellow countryman, Mr Edison, and known, then, I believe, as "yellow paraffine cylinder". The efficacy of this ingenious device was abundantly demonstrated in 1888, and examples are to be found, suitably transduced into formats now more widely available, by following this link in what may be called "hypertext": for which there was, naturally, no appropriate term at the time of publication of "A General Encyclopedia of Literature &c..."; an otherwise admirable work of reference, I am sure.

As ever, your servant &c.

John A.

PS Mr Elgar asks that his opinion on his new EMI electrical gramophone; a most qualified one, if I may venture this opinion; be here set down, viz.: it "rocks".
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1850
Registered: Dec-03
Also The First Phonograph. Extraordinary.

Here is a a use of "phonograph" reliably dated March 1878: Harper's Weekly of March 1878 introduces the public to Edison's latest invention, the phonograph
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 347
Registered: Dec-03
Technology.........It's the beginning of the end I tell you!

What's next? Rock & Roll??
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Ben - I can only assume your post is meant in jest. A good natured poke at my disagreements with others on this forum. I will take it as such at least.
But, I am dismayed that you might possibly be "really" concerned since what I stated is, in reality, a fact. I do feel a good tube amp is more listenable than an equally good solid state amp. It is a fact that I feel that way. What is also a fact is that statement is my opinion. I was not trying to portray the statement as anything but my opinion; and furthermore, feel my phrasing of the words shows nothing that should mislead anyone to assume I am presenting this as a known fact that tubes sound better than solid state. I made no attempt to convince anyone that what I said was a fact that was universally accepted. I did not make a statement that is blatantly false on its face value (such as various groups "love distortion"). I merely stated my opinion and am saddened if anyone percieved the statement as anything but my opinion. I understand perfectly that not everyone may feel the same as I do about the opposing technologies.
As with another gent I disagreed with, you seem to want to take my words and replace them to better suit your own argument. I said I believed tubes are more "listenable", which should imply a sense of enjoyment and ease of listening, and never used the term "musical". If you have followed my posts on this forum you should know that I have a very broad definition of accuracy and musicality in audio. If pressed further I would say that it is my opinion tubes will do a better job of capturing the essence of music (which does not specifically refer to rock, jazz, classical or Tibetan nose music as styles). How that happens, in my opinion, is a topic for another post. I find it easier to get to the heart of what is being performed when it is related to me through a vacuum as opposed to sand.
Now as to whether I would always pick a tube amp over a solid state amp of equal quality is another matter. When I was selling equipment and had the ability to use any equipment I chose to listen to a particular piece of music my tastes occassionally went to the solid state amp. Not because I thought it sounded better overall. But because it more closely approached what I wanted a piece of music to "sound like". An example is when I listened to a recording of Eric Clapton live in concert. I found that a pair of Klipschorns (which I never listened to for any other type of music) driven by a McIntosh 200-300 watt solid state amp came the closest to what I thought that particular recording should "sound like". Lots of bite, rather raucous and, in many ways, the essence of a rock concert. But, if you said I had to listen to the Horns with any other type of music, I thought the big corner horns never sounded as good as when they were driven by tubes. Tubes just made them more "listenable".

I have heard many good, pleasurable solid state amplifiers and have never thought I implied that all transistors are bad. I own several s.s. amps and listen to them on a daily basis. My main audio system is comprised of tubed electronics. In fact, I have made reference to MOSFETs as a device that has much of what I like about tubes displayed in a transistor amplifier. If pressed I could live with a MOSFET amp though I would dearly miss my tubes both for sonic and nostalgic reasons.

I also, to my recollection, never implied that transistors, DBT,and ABX are all linked in some sort of sonic hierarchy. Quite the contrary, I argued that simply because Bob Carver could recreate what HE deemed to be 90% of a tube amp's qualities (in a modified s.s. amp) that did not equal a tube amp's sound. My other argument was that Double Blind Tests and ABX switching should not be the only acceptable way to judge the sonics of any given audio product (or, if you remember, many other things). I was against placing the "onus" of proof on anyone simply because they held an opinion that was different than mine. But, instead, opted to let everyone form their opinions in whatever manner they found apropriate. I, personally, have little use for DBT's and ABX devices. My belief is I can be more comfortable with my opinion of an amplifier after I have spent some time listening.

As I had hoped to make clear in my previous posts, I am all for everyone having an opinion. I only hope that your opinions are formed by a belief system that is yours and yours alone. I am against an opinion that is given, rather than formed, by an outside force, whether it be an authority figure or merely another individual with another opinion, and blindly accepted as fact. There needs to be far more thought, on an individual basis, in our world right now is my personal belief. I have come to this opinion by observing the non-opinions of so many recently.

So I do appreciate your opinions of my statements but I believe you have misinterpreted my intent. Without pretending to speak for others I would propose that (if by no other reason than the number of posts on this forum about the "sound" of various components) say that my statement about crappy recievers being far too often the norm is the most factual statement/opinion I made in my previous post. Other than that I will leave it up to every individual to come to whatever conclusions they wish to claim as their own.

I do hope there is consistency among your beliefs and declarations. Do not attack a group (let's say cable manufacturers) and then when challenged to defend your statements declare you have no problem with that group. That I find apalling and the refuse of a coward. (If anyone cares to turn my own words on me I will deny all plausability.) The tactic used frequently by some on the opposite side of my opinions sems to have evolved into blaming the person who challenges a statement. "No, I never said that. You are reaching that conclusion by your own biases and prejudices."
If you make a statement I believe you should be ready to defend your position not shift the blame, or place the "onus", on someone else. If I truly never said something that is a fact, if, on the other hand, you feel I implied something in my statement I should be able to either correct your mistake or defend my statement. Unfortunately, in present day "society", there is no longer an off the cuff remark.
So I hope I have clarified my statements as merely my opinion to which everyone is free to agree or not. And though, at my age, "Massive Attack" is a term I never hope to hear, I will take you on your word that it is enjoyable on solid state electronics.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1851
Registered: Dec-03
Ben,

I agree with Jan; I have just read his post, that is all. If we object that people state opinions, not facts, what is left.......?

Jan,

"Massive attack" is the name of a band. The name is designed to shock, and is another phantom fear. If you hear those words, then they do not apply to you. The time to worry is when you don't, and they do.

Anyone remember The Who's "My Generation"? I have heard the now elderly Pete Townsend explain that when they sang "Hope I die before I get old" then, by "old" they did not mean age, not in years. Not as such. It rather more meant a state of mind, so he says - now. That is not what brought them wealth and fame, I think.

Here's a guy who knew some things; Thomas Alva Edison.
 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 150
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

My statements were mostly in jest, but I don't agree that tubes are more musical than transistors. I don't think transister sound more musical than tubes, either.

Massive Attack's "Mezzanine" album is one that everybody should own. It will show you how good your hi-fi setup really is. If you haven't heard of them, it is a shame. The had some of the 90's best musical output and spawned many, many clones.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 284
Registered: Feb-04
Jan,

I found your 1:08 pm missive particularly intriguing as it seems to reflect the general philosophy of the 19th century pantheist Endicott Mirthmarmer. His treatise on the Art of Reproduction, which was, I'm fairly certain, plagiarized some fifty years later, by the self-described flaneur Walter Benjamin, warns of the inimical qualities of mechanical reproduction. Of course, Mr. Mirthmarmer borrows heavily from Plato, particularly the Allegory of the Cave, in his diatribe about the great recession of Truth and Spirituality in the Industrial Age. Instead of following your own advice to cease perpetrating a "Hoax upon the poor unsuspecting souls who wish for the betterment of their pathetic lifes without the assistance of Modern Technology", you engage in a discourse regarding the merits of "tube" equipment v. solid state equipment. This seems to be nonsensical; it is like arguing about whether it is better to be eaten alive by a lion or a bear. Neither is desirable. Although I don't profess to be an adherent of Mirthmarmer's (admittedly arriere-garde) philosophy, he does offer a clear view on the topic of mechanical reproduction. I will not bore you with details, but, if you may indulge me, state one of his maxims, which he purportedly whispered into the ear of the socialite Harriet Thistlewaite while they were listening to an early phonograph recording of Caruso, "Madame, pay no heed to the recording. Seek the source of the recording, and when you have discovered the real music, seek the source of the music."
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
My dearest MR A.,

I find your most recent correspondance to be of highest value and interest. Knowing you to be a most gracious and honourable gentleman, I shall, at the first opportunity, further my investigation into this "invention" by this kind soul known as "Edison". I must regretfully inform you, however, to my dismay I could not, upon consulting once again the "Imperial Reference Library", "A General Encyclopedia of Literature, History, Art, Science, Inventon and Discovery; a Pronouncing Dictionary of the English Language; a Gazetteer of the World; a Comprehensive Dictionary of Universal Biography, etc. ~~~~ ".
Edited by Professor Charles Smith Morris, A.M., L.L.D., of the Philadelphia Academy of Natural Sciences, with the assistance of Associate Editors and Special Contributors; and more than two hundred Specialists in the various Departments. Syndicate Publishing Company, 1905.,
my most recent and comprehensive reference material, find any indication that this inventor has made a mark on the International World of Science and Letters. Indeed, in the "Imperial Reference Library" the entries flow from "Ediso River" to "Edit" with nary a mention of this gent's name.
I have no intention of impugning your integrity further and find your supposed publications to be worthy of investigation and substantiation. If the evidence you have so graciously provided proves not to be a forgery nor a fabrication I shall render unto you my most sincere apologies. I do find it to be most curious that one of the entries which you provided to support your fantastical claims is thus:

"After dinner toast at Little Menlo
Spoken by: Arthur Sullivan, composer
Introduction by: Col. George Gouraud
Record format: Edison yellow paraffine cylinder
Recording date: October 5, 1888
Location: Little Menlo, London, England
ENHS object catalog number: E-2439-7
** Transcript of Arthur Sullivan's message to Edison upon introduction to the phonograph:
' . . . For myself, I can only say that I am astonished and somewhat terrified at the results of this evening's experiment -- astonished at the wonderful power you have developed, and terrified at the thought that so much hideous and bad music may be put on record forever. But all the same, I think it is the most wonderful thing that I have ever experienced, and I congratulate you with all my heart on this wonderful discovery.'"

Could this possibly be the work of some sort of Rasputin, of whom the world is just now becoming familar. (How I long for the day when information shall be disseminated at the speed of light in an unending flow of knowledge.) Dare I suggest that what has been perpetrated upon an unsuspecting public is nothing more than a mass halucination! One of devilish intent!
I pray, sir, that you are not caught up in this web of deceit.
Astonished and terified may yet be the most appropriate description of this device, if such thing truly exists. The thought of what this could be used for, what dishonorable deeds it could perform. Our politicians and business leaders could be ensnared by their own words!
Alas, I am forced, though I am not beyond suspicion, to accept, for the moment, your evidence of such a contrivance's very existence. (At best I am hopeful that this will prove to be what is known in imploite society as a mere thingum-abob, a makeshift dingus, that is a fleeting distraction to the serious problems of today's universe.) I shall consult further with the foremost experts in the field of Arts and Sciences. My reference materials shall be my constant companion until this mystery is resolved in one form or another. I pray your intentions in this matter have been of the highest integrity, and, should the results of my investigations prove to benefit your hypothesis of the existence of such a wondorous device I can only pray that it will be used for the benefit of humanity.
I must, with all due respect, inform you that I am confident my consultations shall uncover nothing more than the "considerable modifications" made since Mr. Pitman's advancement of 1837. I shall report anon.

I remain your more sincere admirer,
Professor J. Vigne, A.P.P.H.F.F., L.S.D., E.T.C.

P.S. I take your wording to be some sort of coding that indicates rocks were thrown at the premiere of Mr Elgar's latest vulgarity!
 

Silver Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 151
Registered: Dec-03
John,

I'm not sure why a Bristol, England collective of artists chose the name "Massive Attack" and don't know about shock value being an intent. I do know that they briefly changed their name in the 90's to "Massive" to avoid any implication of approval for the U.N.'s policy towards Iraq.

I'm just trying to point out that there is a lot of great design types for hi-fi equipment. Take Naim, a solid state manufacturer with an avid following of users. A company that preaches system unity from equipment and cables to speakers. They even goes so far as to use different cable connections than most companies. Some people like Naim and some don't. The ones that do are much like the loyal tube owners. I tend to think that there are many wast to achieve sonic nirvana.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John A. - re., "Massive Attack". Oh.

Two Cents - Ah, Mirthmarmer, alas, I knew him well. Although I must confess to not having the pleasure of Mrs.(?) Harriet Thistlewaite's acquaintance.

Two Cents and Ben - I seem to have failed once more in convincing you gentlemen that I was merely stating my deliberated opinion. The news of Mr. DeForest's experiments in electrical transmissions has excited the very populace in this part of the world.
I seek to convince no one of any prejudice. Facts are facts and opinions are numerous.

I also seem to have once again fallen prey to having my words misused. I would refer you to my post and ask that you once again pay heed to my use of the terminology "Listenablity". I would also entreat you to find a missive in which I portrayed any such device or construction as more "musical". If you can locate such a passage I can only assure you it was placed there by one of my enemies, of whom there are many, to embarass and discredit me in the public's perception. Once again I will state clearly that I have never made such a reference and add, upon my Sainted Mother's Soul, that if such a reference exists I disavow all knowledge of its existence and origin.

(I think we've got Kegger lost again.)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 79
Registered: Jul-04
Uber-posters all:
May I humbly ask: "are you chaps getting paid by the word?" Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 959
Registered: Dec-03
answer to jan



.................Y E P................
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Answer to Larry R. -




..................... Y E P .................
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1852
Registered: Dec-03
2c,

That is brilliant. Mirthmarer had a good point, but Miss Thistlewaite could have replied that she learned about Caruso courtesy of the recording, and would not have done so with paying attention to it. But you go right to the point. I think that this addresses our key problem on "...Old Dogs..."

Ben,

About a year ago I heard one track by Massive Attack, on the radio, thought it was great, and have been meaning to track them down. That helps, thanks! Jan is one writer here who is particularly careful to try to distinguish "fact" from "opinion". I never thought he was giving anything more opinion on the "sound" of tubes. I think it was Kegger who described tubes as more "musical".

This is odd because Kegger has often said, clearly, he is not concerned so much with the reproducing the sound of a real performance. If it is Mirthmarmer vs Kegger I think I am with Mirthmarmer, personally, on that, but I suspect little else. Kegger's view that we are all entitled to our personal preferences is important to keep in mind, and it sounds as if Mirthmarmer was not quite as tolerant.

Larry,

Actually I think there is some serious stuff in that exchange, and it also comes in attractive packaging, too. That is personal opinion, of course. We get right into the question of what we hope to achieve with sound recording, in the first place.

I also think that the only thing to be said about CD, from the point of view of any future historian of recorded sound, is that it was the first popular digital medium, As regards reproducing real sound, it was a retrograde step. It helps to take a long view, I always think.

Mr Vigne,

I thank you for your further contribution; most illuminating. If do not make so bold as to ask, surely others besides myself will wonder what is meant by "A.P.P.H.F.F".

The other abbreviations for your qualifications are well known.

There is, however, some ambiguity in "L.S.D.", by which, since "vulgarity" is a serious charge, applicable to Mr Elgar only in respect of his regrettable "Pomp and Circumstance" marches, I assume you do not mean the abbreviations of the Latin for pounds, shillings and pence; but, perhaps, the pharmaceutical agent so influential in various popular performing artists' choice of music recorded in the early years of what became known as "stereophony". One thinks, inter alia, of the distinctly memorable song "Lucy in the Sky with Diamonds".

It would be kind of you to indicate which of these is meant.

Yours et cetera.

Postscriptum. I believe Mr Elgar's gramophone was manufactured not by "EMI", but by "His Masters Voice", the latter becoming incorporated into the former only at a much later date. I apologise for this error. However, it is, perhaps, interesting to note that the behaviour of "Nipper" seems to be in accordance with the prescriptions of Mr Mirthmarmer.

Postpostscriptum. Mr Kegger seems to have only forty-one silver bullets left. I am sure he will use them well. I am also baffled by "Y.E.P." Could it possibly stand for other units of currency?
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 285
Registered: Feb-04
Mr. A.,

You are correct as usual. Endicott Mirthmarmer was an avowed pantheist who did not tolerate the moral relativism of entitled opinions (you can have your opinion and I can have mine and we can both be right) that is de riguer these days.

My sincere apologies for the brevity of this post. I have two cold brewskies and a movie with my beloved that I must tend to.

Your humble servant,
T.C.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Dearest Mr. A.,

I perfectly understand the confusion that the Scientific Appelations and Monikers can create among those not used to the world of Adanced Experimentation. To clarify, for those wondering, the designation A.P.P.H.F.F. can best be described by the appropriate action which must be mastered to enable one to progress to a level of Recognition by one's Superiors which then is recognized as Excellence in All Areas.
Please extend the phalanges at the furthest end of the right forearm. Spread the digits apart as widely as possible. (This action may require substantial exercise in the form of calistenic postures to enhance one's ability to excell at this action. Alas, some of lesser capabilities may never achieve a fully expressed form which is suitable to be considered above the average. Those who face this reality will, undoubtedly,
find their true talents lie elsewhere.)
Whilst extending the digits of the afore mentioned facet, place the tip of your tongue between the front dentures of your mouth and extending ever so slightly beyond the outer edges of your dentals. By flexing the forearm upward, place the digit which contains two phalanges upon the outermost tip of your probsocis. While manipulating the four remaining digits of the right hand expell a hearty amount of air through and between your front dentures to express the sound PPPPPPPHHHHHHHFFFFFFFFFFFFF!!!!!!!!! If your capabilities have not been overextended by this exercise you will quite possibly find you have a lineal heritage which has not realized its full potential as a person of distiction. Your order form will reach you in the next six to eight weeks and you will only be required to send a small deposit which will enable your further studies in this unique and growing field.
Impress your friends with a degree in A.P.P.H.F.F. now!
The answer to your second question, if I interpret it correctly is, yes.
To any of your other questions which I have simply refused to acknowledge is a reasonable, no, unless.
And, despite Mr. Mirthmarmer's objections, is "Nipper" that different from "Kegger"? There seems to me to be a similarlity which may be simply my imagination, but, having known Nipper nearly as well as Mr. Mithmarmer, I think he was, in the reality of a harsh dawn, a Kegger in disguise with diamonds.

Yours as above' Yada, Yada, Yada







 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 962
Registered: Dec-03
this was a statement i had said directed at gregory.

"gregory i'm sorry but i hear it and like it.
it may not be natural/neutrel or it may have more
distortion but i'm telling yu it's so musical/pleasing.
if you could get a good tube preamp to audition
you should give it a serious listen for a couple
weeks. i think you'll enjoy. i know it would be
difficult to go in with an open mind but if you
can, you may find you like it."

and as i have said as often as i can these are my
oppinions not fact.

and i used the term musical/pleasing to try and
describe what i was hearing was so easy to listen too.
that it made the music pleasing and by pleasing
it made me think of a happy fellow playing sweet
music on a flute so i called it musical.
(i know kinda weird but my brain does that from time to time)


didn't mean it was more musical or that musical
meant a recreation of anything but more of an adjective.

to try and describe what i was hearing.

and the only reason why i started using these types
of terms is because all of my life iv'e had many
different systems and pieces of equipment that were
of good to very good quality and i've never heard
what i'm hearing now on relativly inexpensive tube gear.

for me audio is such a huge pleasure right now.
i've had systems and a lot of equipment in the past.
from an early age i was into audio.
but it has never been this much pleasure to sit
and listen to my system.


2 friends came by this last weekend and they hadn't
seen my system in a while. they were trippin i was
using tubes in my audio setup. but we sat their
doing nothing but listening for about 6 hours to
everything i could pull out. they both were very
impressed with how easy the sytem was to listen to.
several times one or the other would comment:
iv'e listend to this recording many times and what
im hearing is so clear and detailed even the background
sounds are easily distinguishable.

that is my oppinion/description of what my tubes
do for me. that my solid state does not.

regardless of what anyone says that is what i am getting.


and jan as i was going back through this thread
i noticed this which i did not see before.

"I'd be interested to know what else the gentleman at the shop has in stock. I need 8 6L6GC's for my Macs."

i will look into it.

.................Y E P ................

REFERS TO MY GOOD BUDDY THE DRAGON. WHOM I TRY AND
FOLLOW IN HIS FOOTSTEPS OF KEEPING IT SIMPLE.

http://www.fantasticfiction.co.uk/authors/Laurence_Yep.htm
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
And now, Mr. Kegger, how do you feel about cigars? Hmmmmmmm?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 963
Registered: Dec-03
GOLDEN TUBE AUDIO SE 40
SINGLE-ENDED TRIODE TUBE
STEREO POWER AMPLIFIER
anyone have any thoughts on this?
http://www.savantaudio.com/gtse40.html

jan any first hand knowlage by chance? if not any
oppinions?

not exactly sure why but i like what i see.
i'm probably going to pick this up and get all 3
kits listed below.

http://www.soniccraft.com/upgrades/se40.htm


For readers who are unfamiliar with the SE-40, it is a 40 Wpc single-ended class A-biased tube amplifier, utilizing three Sovtek 6L6WGC output tubes for each side.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1862
Registered: Dec-03
These opinions count for something, certainly with me. That is not an opinion; it is a fact. My father kept his cigars in tubes. Also wore dentures. Perhaps I need to re-read. Thanks to all; 2c, Kegger, Jan.

Here is Kegger, in disguise, with diamonds, proving Mr Mirthmarmer's point. But fox terriers are not reknown for moral relativism, either. Source: "Nipper" - His Master's Voice. Must go. Best to all. Yep.

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 964
Registered: Dec-03
well allrighty then!








yep!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 965
Registered: Dec-03
jan i know mr. clinton likes them.




should i have monica season up a few for yu?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1864
Registered: Dec-03
[No offence, anyone. Change the names as you wish; it will be the same story. 2c got me going on this. It is about moral relativism. Nipper would understand].

At a recent US conference on world religions, a spokesperson for each major faith put forward its basic tenets. After each presentation, and questions, the liberal chairman summed up, warmly and with full approval of the audience:

"Thank you so much, speaker, I think we all appreciate better, now, the point of view of the Muslim/Jew/Buddhist/Sikh/Pantheist/whatever [delete as appropriate, or add some]. And, if that is what works for you, personally, I am sure we all congratulate you, and warmly approve that you hold these beliefs".

After which, each speaker smiled and nodded, gratefully.

The last on the programme was an RC priest [could have been a nun (wake up Jan)]. The tone was different from that of the rest. It was along the lines of

"There is only one true path of divine belief, and I am alone here in knowing what it is. The rest of you are all wrong, have knowingly and willingly been mislead, and are therefore sinners and heretics. You will all surely burn in everlasting hellfire as the only fitting punishment for your disbelief".

There was a long silence, and no questions.

Then the chairman said:

"Thank you so much, speaker, I think we all appreciate better, now, your point of view. And, if that is what works for you, I am sure we all congratulate you, and warmly approve that you hold these beliefs".
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 81
Registered: Jul-04
John A.
As I sit here on the sidelines with Kegger, wondering where youze guyz are going to fly next, I'd just like to answer your query on "Y.E.P."
After wading through all of your rhetoric, could it possibly mean "You're Evidencing Pretentiousness?" Hmmm. . .
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1868
Registered: Dec-03
Pots and kettles, Larry.

There are some choice Floridian quotes on "Discoveries". Need I say more?

But you ain't seen nothing, yet, in the YEP department.

I have an audio philosophical WMD sitting on my hard drive, right now, developed to deal with the imminent threat of Kegger. It is primed, and ready for deployment, in only 45 minutes. This is confirmed by Number 10, so it must be true.

I am saving it for a counterstrike on "Teaching an Old Dog new tricks". The countdown may begin next time anyone says something like "everything sounds as good as everything else; it's just what you prefer; anything goes".

So, don't push me. You'll regret it. You have been warned.....

Kegger,

It is OK, she didn't inhale.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 83
Registered: Jul-04
John A. -
Sorry - should have put a "GRIN" at the end of my hopefully-understood tongue-in-cheek comments. Don't worry, I'll be careful not to push you, indeed may not even say much at all! And I'm also staying OFF "old dogs, new tricks" threat, er, "thread." Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 591
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger--

this was a statement i had said directed at gregory.

"gregory i'm sorry but i hear it and like it.
it may not be natural/neutrel or it may have more
distortion but i'm telling yu it's so musical/pleasing.
if you could get a good tube preamp to audition
you should give it a serious listen for a couple
weeks. i think you'll enjoy. i know it would be
difficult to go in with an open mind but if you
can, you may find you like it."

I am glad you enjoy it.

I have heard many tube amps and pre-amps along with solid state Krells and other ultra high end solid state amps and pre-amps. I have spent years visiting audio salons, much less now than I used to. I have generally found that the expensive tube amps (unless they have been purposely messed with) sound indistinguishable to me from a well made solid state amp, except they are sometimes a bit weaker in the bass. I find that quite a few cheaper tube amps sound sweeter--probably due to the normally higher impedance, some second order harmonics, and compression when the amp isn't all that powerful.

No doubt, for those that may have ears better than mine and don't mind the extra tube replacement and biasing, an ideal amp may well be a tube/solid state hybrid--with the tube amplifying the midrange and tweeter and the solid state the woofer. Actually I think someone in Australia makes one--and there probably are others now.

I find that I prefer the more accurate rendition of the source from a high quality solid state receiver, or preamp and amp. I can always alter the sound with the preamp. There are neutral sounding tube amps too--but they generally cost a fortune. And I have no desire to diddle with tube replacements and other potential problems (biasing, etc.)which are inevitable. If a solid state amp works when you get it, it generally keeps on working with no problem for a long time, until someone spills a soda on it.

I am not a tweaker and have no desire in replacing tubes or tinkering with my system. I want to listen to music and watch movies and enjoy them with as little effort as possible. I greatly respect DIY-ers, such as yourself--but it isn't my thing.

Is the discussion about accuracy of input to output or is it about how well you can make the recording sound? No doubt, add some 2nd order harmonic distortion to lots of music--it will generally sound sweeter.

But I would no sooner be switching out solid state components for supposed improvements than tubes. That's me.

If I was a DIY type, no doubt I would try building tube and solid state components. But after my day at work I would rather just watch movies,listen to music, go to the beach, a nice restaurant, etc. DIY for me probably ventures as far as doing some gardening and cooking.



Ever notice how many audiophile magazines have harangued over the years about signal accuracy and how you should have the shortest signal path and NO TONE controls even on your preamps (you must have read those letters and articles over the years). But somehow having various tubes and changing them to alter the sound and signal is great. How is that?


I just want to have the ability to hear the recording as accurately as possible (with as little personal effort as possible)and then if I want--alter it with preamp controls and/or parametric equalizers, particularly at the low end to help the acoustics, as all rooms have different interacions with their speakers, particularly in the bass.

If I decide to invest in my next dramatic improvement, I will buy a speaker system with active crossovers to each driver to maximize frequency accuracy, timbre, and even time/phase coherence--as you can alter the time delay on each driver.

Those I have heard and the good ones truly make a dramatic difference--such as the Waveform Mach 17 or for a DIY-er such as yourself--go to the Linkwitz website. I had the pleasure of listening to a pair of his Orion speakers recently-truly amazing good and he supplies the parts for DIY'ers or for about double the price will have someone build them for you.

Just like in cajun cuisine where the holy trinity in coooking is onions, green peppers, and celery; In audio the holy trinity is great speakers (preferably with active crossovers for every separately amped driver), a great recording, and excellent room acoustics.

From my personal experience and perspective if you get the audio holy trinity all the rest is miniscule in comparison.

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 970
Registered: Dec-03
gregory i truly respect your oppinion.

and yes i am a tweaker.

and me personally as i have said many times don't
much care if the music is accurate or not.

just as long as it is pleasing to me.

so i like the fact of changing tubes.

but what i have found to be the best attribute so
far for me is how easy it is to hear the subtle
sounds of the music.

good to hear from you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 971
Registered: Dec-03
and this one never made any sense to me either.

"Ever notice how many audiophile magazines have harangued over the years about signal accuracy and how you should have the shortest signal path and NO TONE controls even on your preamps (you must have read those letters and articles over the years). But somehow having various tubes and changing them to alter the sound and signal is great. How is that? "

how can you have both.

to me the answer is you can't

so if that is the answer why do people say you need
accuracy?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
I hope, with some of my comments, that no one thinks that you can change the sound of an amplifier by switching tubes any more than you can by switching transistors. All devices have an inherent sound that belongs to that type of device whether it be tubes or transistors. Change the transistors in your amplifier and you will alter the sound quality. The difference is tubes plug in and out in a minute so the alteration can be accomplished in the time it takes to change a light bulb. Transistors must (normally) be soldered in place so it takes the amount of time more like changing the light socket. Integrated circuits, however, can be mounted on a plug in board and can also be swapped in a matter of minutes. Just for those curious enough to look inside their equipment, most CD players use IC's in their output stages. But no matter what you change you will affect an alteration to the sound.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 592
Registered: Dec-03
There have been so many DBT's in the last 10 years on solid state amps (many of which use different parts), that when constructed to accepted modern amp design, and no one has been able to differentiate them when played within their power envelope. Unless the design and the devices used are total garbage, the miniscule differences offer no AUDIBLE change, even when there are very small measurement difference.

Krell, Bryston and other solid state manufacturers often substitute other IC's or transistors of different brand in the same model when there is a shortage of supply with absolutely no audible difference.

There are miniscule differences in 12 and 14 gauge wires that are measureble. However, no one has ever heard a difference in a properly made wire.

I am sure Stuart Taylor of Bryston and Dan D'Agostino of Krell are both very proud of their amps. But I would bet that both of them would say they could never tell the difference in a DBT on comparable product--although I don't doubt their marketting divisions make some amazing claims.

The human body is only capable of so much accuracy in determining most things. Undoubdtedly evolutionary, because otherwise we would be driven to distraction by every other box of Frosted Flakes from different corn or almost anything that is supposed to be the same that we use again. Nothing is identical---it just appears that way.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Thus spoke Room 101.

All I have to add is I'm glad Gregory isn't on the DOGC board for Balsamic vinegar. That is one thing I take as seriously as I do tubes.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 593
Registered: Dec-03
'I hope, with some of my comments, that no one thinks that you can change the sound of an amplifier by switching tubes any more than you can by switching transistors.'

'Change the transistors in your amplifier and you will alter the sound quality.'

And the other sound reverberated from the Pulpit to the "Amen Corner".

Jan, I'm similarly glad you don't work in an advisory capacity for NASA or Boeing.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1883
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory,

Welcome back. Good point about changing transistors. Not so good about NASA or Boeing, imho.

Consider the tragic last Columbia mission, STS-107, in which the Shuttle exploded during re-entry over Texas on the 1st of February 2003. Over-reliance on specs, especially the stability of the re-entry heat shield tiles, was the problem, I think. And awkward questions, which might have led to a re-think, were filtered out in the management chain, as I recall. There was also the amazing demonstration by Richard Feynman, following the first Shuttle disaster, that rubber "o"-ring seals did not perform to spec. He did this, live at the inquiry, using a high-tech simulation consisting of a rubber "o"-ring and a glass of iced water.

Whether any sort of engineering really works or not is more important that whether it conforms to specifications. There are always unintended consequences. What is or is not relevant in the specs can sometimes surprise the most skilled engineers.

As regards amps, the main thing is to listen, and decide, on the evidence of what you hear. We obviously can't do this on a forum. It sounds to me like Kegger was very sceptical, and is now of the opinion that a tube amp can sound better. How and why is an interesting question.

As regards the human senses, they are mostly highly sensitive to differences, but hopeless at "absolute" values, which is why we need specs for calibration, even of SPL etc. Frequency is a good example. You can easily hear when two notes are not in tune. A few people carry some sort of accurate internal reference, and have "absolute pitch". Then, human pattern recognition, in sound or vision, is way still way ahead of the computer kind; there we certainly can see, at once, difference that even huge computers would take weeks to verify. What we actually experience is always the final reference point. If your position is "don't bother; the specs says there is no significant difference" then it is entirely correct to be interested to see whether that corresponds with what one can actually hear.

That's my take on this. It is an interesting discussion, and I learned some things, as before. So thanks!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 99
Registered: Jul-04
John A.
As usual, you have either a photographic memory or a ready reference source. Details, details!
Re all this "hearing a difference." I almost hate to bring up individual physical differences, but they exist. My wife hears things that I simply cannot. I hear things that some of my friends cannot.
You mention "perfect pitch." It is both blessing and curse for those "affected." A friend in Chicago has it - and suffers greatly, because unless an orchestra or piano is finely-tuned, she claims that a concert is quite painful.
I lack perfect pitch, but suffer from fine "relative pitch." If a singer is supposed to go from a C to an E, and misses by a quarter-tone, it is, indeed, painful to me.
Example: the other day my wife and I were comparing recordings of various pieces as performed by both "modern" and "period instrument" groups.
Can't remember the piece, but we first played a CD with "modern" instruments - then immediately changed out the CD for a "period" performance.
Whoa! Something wrong here, friends! Not only was the period instrument sound a bit nasal, but, but - what? It all sounded flat - off-key.
Looking at the albums I finally determined the problem: the "modern" album was tuned to A-440, standard tuning. The "period" album was tuned, as most Baroque ensembles were, to A-415. Talk about miniscule differences! But played back-to-back, that small difference bothered me.
OK - what has this to do with Kegger's proclaimed "difference" in tube vs. transister sound? Perhaps he has listened to enough of both for extended periods and, as with me and my relative pitch, is able to perceive a difference.
We humans are a complex lot - and thus tend to be rather quarrelsome at times.
On this forum, I have found: "De gustibus est disputandum" - on matters of taste there is argument. Taste - and sound, too! G R I N
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 594
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

Actually it was the frozen foam hitting the re-entry tiles on take-off.

But my point wasn't that NASA and Boeing don't make mistakes, But look at the complexity of what they are doing. Look at the hundreds of mistakes car companies, lawnmower companies, even towel and linen companies have seconds and rejects.

My point was they rely on math and engineering confirmed by performance.

Heck, NASA was told that the O-rings could fail below freezing, but the failure of people at the top that wanted the pageantry gambled with others lives because of their egos and time schedules.

Anyway, Boeing and NASA was a throwaway line--and not meant to be taken very seriously.
No doubt, I could have picked far better examples of scientific based companies.

It has been proven over and over again that peoples memory of amp sounds at salons or at home are terrible. The useage of DBT shows how bad they are when done immediately--which either proves almost all amps sound the same or that we have a very difficult time with subtle differences.

Amazingly enough there have been ABX/DBT's where the abyssmally performing amp and purposely skewed wire is preferred. Goes to show that often a change (even for the worse) makes someone sit up and say--"Boy do I hear a big difference" I might get that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 100
Registered: Jul-04
Gregory S.
You are quite correct in your reply to John A. re the double-blind testing. Seldom is that done, for many reasons.
In my checkered career as "correspondent," I once moderated a double-blind testing of a weird product: "CD Stoplight." Basically, a pen full of special green paint that a person put on the outer and inner rims of CDs. Supposed to make the sound "fuller and warmer." Yeah, sure. . .
Well, we went to great expense and time in Chicago - and set up dual CD players and associated equipment. Both players went into a single amp - and to the same set of speakers, to cut down on possible equipment sound differences.
Then, we (in a hi-end FM station studio) grabbed 36 human rats, and sat them down to listen.
Two CDs - one a Mozart concerto with Serkin - the other I frankly can't remember. (it was 1990)
One CD coated - the other not. Listen, change, listen - back and forth for a half-day. Sometimes the coated disc would be in player A, other times in player B, just in case of electronic anomalies.
After rather exhaustive tests, 90 per cent of the "human rats" said that indeed, the green-coated CDs sounded better - though they were only told that "CD-A" and CD-B" were being tested.
They never knew about the green paint until after the testing.
In this case - to the amazement of engineers, etc., it appeared that there WAS a sonic difference.
Is that enough of a DBT as an example? Well, it was for me.
BTW - don't know if the "CD Stoplight" is still around - maybe somebody on this forum does know?
End of rant - agreeing with you that there is seldom a valid DBT test - but when there IS, it can be of value. Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 997
Registered: Dec-03
like i said it's really really hard to accuratly
describe the differences i'm hearing.


but to me the music is smoother and easier to hear
background/subtle notes.

that is about as well as i can describe what it's
doing to my setup.

yes some of the tube stuff i have changes eq also.
like rolled off highs and lows, those are easy to tell.
"not all the tube gear does this"

but it's the other little things that are different
between tubes and transistors which make it hard
to describe.

some things are easy to pick up and dbt would show it.

others you realize more over time or if you listen
to the tube piece for say a week and then put back the
solid state you realize hey i'm missing something.

well that's my take on the whole thing.

and just because it's better to me and my setup
doesn"t mean that everyone is going to hear what i do
and like it. personally it's working for me!
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 101
Registered: Jul-04
John A., Gregory, et al -
Sorry - just HAD to include the following link, after my carrying-on about pitch differences. FYI, it is a look at a topic of some worth in hi-end cocktail parties - or maybe Scrabble? GRIN

http://www.fanaticalfitzhugh.com/essay1.html

Enjoy - or toss - a "different" take, fer shore!
LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 102
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
I wonder if you could equate the differences in sound you hear with the differences in sonic qualities between the good-old LP and the CD - at least the early-80s ones?
I, for one, hear major differences - but some people I know say the CD is better - mainly because they hear none of the ticks and pops.
I tend to side with you on the tubes-are-better, though I sure couldn't prove it!
Stick by your guns, my friend - it is YOUR setup and your hearing.
Heck - I might even send you some "CD Stoplight" to help you along! DOUBLE GRIN
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 998
Registered: Dec-03
larry i can't comment because i've never owned an
lp player.

when i first started into music it was 8 track tapes.

then shortly cassettes. both were very bad at resolution
and eq.

then cd's for me, whoo a whole new world opened up.
the resolution was much better and the eq was a lot
closer from cd to cd.

then d.d. and dts music was much better than cd.

now sacd/dvd-a even bettter than those.

i have friends who have lp's but i never got into the
whole thing. i would listen to theirs but all the
clicks and pops and hissing was not my cup of tee.
i preferred cd's.

i thought the lp's had better resolution and better
eq than cd's but felt the lack of clicks pops and
hissing
was better for me.

well it looks like now we have our cake and can eat it
too with sacd and dvd-a.

so for me with the high rez material and some tubes
to play it through make a wonderful combination.

........................................

it's kinda like your high rez digital material has
the dac's to change from digital to analog then
the tubes act as another filter to smooth it out
even more.but theres so much resolution in sacd/dvd-a
that they can afford to be filtered by tubes.
"that's just me talking out loud"
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 103
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
I often forget what a dinosaur I am! GRIN
Of course you don't know about the Great LPs - you were born in this century! Hmmm. . .
Eight-track! Shudder. What a horror! OK, you make good points - and I'll be interested to see how quickly John A. can try to shoot them down. It's his mission in life, you know! GRIN
Hey! just noticed I've reached SILVER status! Tah-Dah!!! Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 999
Registered: Dec-03
yes 1 more post and i will have a gold member just like john.

maybe we could do a star wars duel!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1885
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, My Rantz made a similar remark about gold members when I passed 1,000. Wish he'd return. Congrats, Larry! I think you have a higher rate of posts than I; I just registered on day 1 of the new system, so have had longer at it. You will be gold by about Thanksgiving, at this rate.

The tube vs solid-state debate certainly seems a little like the Lp vs CD debate. A well-made LP, in good condition, played with a quality turntable, pickup and cartridge, is much better than the best CD, for resolution, but not signal-to-noise ratio. LP is not as convenient as CD, in most cases. Cd was launched with a great fanfare about how much better the sound quality was than that of LP. It was untrue. Cd scored for convenience, that is all. There is a limit to Cd's resolution, inherent in the format; pcm at 44.1 kHz sampling frequency, 16-bit range of sample size. DVD-A is much better, as Kegger says, the best of both worlds. I have still not caught up with SACD. If you do not already own LP records, DVD-A/SACD seem to make LP obsolete, finally, as a medium. CD did make LP obsolete, yet it almost took over completely, and in quite a short time. What CD really displaced was pre-recorded audio tape cassette, I think. That was definitely a convenience format. I have Gregory to thank for explaining to me, patiently, what DVD-A format was all about.

In the hi-fi press there is still a lot of coverage of turntables and tube amps.

May the force be with you, Kegger!
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 104
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
Quick! Post me back - and celebrate!!! GRIN
LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 105
Registered: Jul-04
John A. et al
Ah, we spend much time debating LPs and CDs - forgetting how wonderful the LPs were - when they replaced 78s! Now THERE was an improvement! Clicks and pops aside, we marveled in the new, longer-playing, quieter, more user-friendly LP!
Of course, I don't expect the "kids" on this forum to know about 78s - except perhaps for a museum-visit? And of course - only John A. and I remember "wax cylinders." You DO remember those, eh, John? GRIN
BTW - is anyone other than me suddenly getting tons of pop-up ads whenever I access the forum? Within the last few days - and I'm going crazy with all the HEADLINES!!!!! Arggghhh. . . .
John has his DVD-A, Larry has his SACD, and Kegger has his tubes. Sigh. All's well that makes happy, I guess?
Now - I repeat - does anybody know whatever happened to the "CD Stoplight?" Jest wunnerin. .
LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1000
Registered: Dec-03
wwweeeeeeeehhheeeeeeee iii nnnnoooww hhaavve aaa
gggoolldd mmmeemmbeerr!

i am trembbblliinngg with excitement.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1001
Registered: Dec-03
hey it didn't say gold, maybe you need to go over 1000!


and larry no i am not getting popups. you probably
have 1 or more spyware/adware programs running on
your computer.

download adware 6.0 and run it. "free and removes"
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/minitext/escher/big.asp?IMAGE=cube_with_ribbons

http://www.mathacademy.com/pr/prime/index.asp

OK, I can only assume most of you are curious enough to have already clicked on the links above (the second one's for you Tonto). If you haven't please do so now, we'll wait. But remember you are holding up the rest of the group.

Now we can discuss reality vs. perception.


So we are willing to accept that big, high end companies (A) substitute parts and (B) with no sonic consequences. I can go along with part (A) as I have seen the substitution charts for transistors. The same type charts exist for tubes. That doesn't prove all parts are equal. If you will go back to my discussion with Kegger about subbing tubes I said each tube will have a "slightly" different character. My description was that one will have better dynamics and some will have better harmonic structure, etc. I'm not talking about night and day differences in these items but they are not the same.
My problem is still with part (B). Since I have heard the differences that a substitute can make and I have dealt with the customer who has heard the difference after his/her amplifier has come back from service.
It would seem somewhat illogical to me (but then I don't own a big, high end company) that (A) a designer who will tell the buying public that many hours were spent listening and evaluating "every" part that went into a product would blithely change parts or pick parts that aren't in large enough supply to produce a product. It would seem illogical also that (B) a company that would repair its own product wouldn't just tell the tech to use what he had laying around if they believed all things equal.
Well, I guess we can write of (A) to that hated marketing department just saying things to get product sold. "CURSE you, marketing people." All I know here is I have never met a nun who teaches marketing.
As to (B), I do know that when a product from a big, high end company comes in for repair the parts are almost always ordered from the parent company to assure compatibilty with the existing parts. I guess we can also write that off to the greedy high end companies desire to suck every penny possible from their customers and they just make them buy spare parts so they can make more moolah. But this wouldn't seem necessary since they have already soaked the poor sap for a $10,000 amp that, according to some, is the same as a $279 reciever. Haven't they made enough profit?! Aren't they off in Maui driving a Ferrari and drinking expensive champagne? How dastardly are they? Where are the nuns? SEND IN THE NUNS. SEND IN THE NUNS. Isn't it rich? Isn't it rare? Loosing my timing at this .... Now see, you've got another song stuck in my head! Psychological warfare is against all conventions, sir.
Anyway, if there are subs to be made at all levels, I would like an answer from my government. Couldn't we get men on the moon for a lot less if we could just buy the parts at Radio Shack? And couldn't we have a program to build better amplifiers with the same amount of funding as NASA? Where is our time honored procedure of Corporate Welfare? I'm going to vote the SOB's out of office.

"It has been proven over and over again ..." To who, Gregory? Talk about the Amen Corner. It has been proven to those who wish to believe it. It has been proven to those who wish to believe it that ghosts exist and living people can talk to them (amounts to about the same level of stage craft as you assign to big, high end audio companies and audio salons, not to mention reviewers).
Gregory, I don't wish to refight the Battle of Objective Reviewing. I don't care how you feel about "Stereophile" magazine or what you prefer to read. But you seem to have missed my point of contention about your statements. I have no dog in the fight over whether there should be DBT/ABX. Heck, they seem to be filling a vital part of our economy according to your information. My point with your statements has always been your desire to present your opinion as a "there it is, you are a fool if you doubt it" fact. Ideas like - "It has been proven over and over again that peoples memory of amp sounds at salons or at home are terrible. The useage of DBT shows how bad ..." and "proves almost all amps sound the same" are mere dogma from your side of the campgrounds. My suggestion is to let a few sparks ignite something in your little wooded area and then let the tents burn down. If you were to simply say this is an opinion and leave it at that I don't think I would be so bothered. But to deny what some of us feel is what we hear is getting old. I thought we had beaten that horse to death, drug it through the mud to where we were going to bury it, dropped a big rock on it for a gravestone and gone in to the big city to buy a tractor to replace it. We have moved on. There must be something else you have to contribute. No?
I am fine with what ever anyone out there wants to think about darn near anything. Even what you're thinking about me right now, Gregory. It doesn't matter to me whether anyone finds my argument interesting enough to explore it further. I've got other things to do and talk about. I don't care if you have your hifi wired with cat entrails. I don't care if you have $100,000 speakers being driven by a $79 reciever. I don't care if you buy your hifi because of the remote control. If you like it I think that's just fine (weird but fine). But, please, get over this fixation you have with insisting everyone go DBT their paper towels. And you've realy lost me with the stuff about cars and lawnmowers. That was with the stock, specified parts that were supposed to be in place, right? So what's your point? That good stuff breaks too? Duh!!! As you would probably point out, there must have been a measurable, quantitative reason for the hand towel to be considered a second. Like it was the wrong size or color? What point does that prove? Or am I just being a bit denser than usual?
Move on, man!

Larry - Thanks for the contribution but - YOUR WRONG! Must be! Gotta be! Can't be what you found! You old hooligan, you. You just thought that the people just thought that they were able to hear something they just didn't hear. The ol' stagecraft again, eh, Larry?
Here's something for you:

http://www.fullswing.com/audioprism/stoplight.html

Kegger - It seems you have become the defacto tube guy. I will relinquish all responsibilty to you in this squirmish. Good luck, it could get nasty.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 106
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
Yep - you needed to go over - but anyway, CONGRATULATIONS! You're now in stellar class on the forum, so you can lord it over us commoners who wear lesser metal on their sleeves.
OK - am running Adaware right now - don't have Spybot yet, but maybe should? Thanks! LR
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Larry - re. post 11:41

Don't be messing with Silver, my friend! Tonto, cover me.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger -

"1 more post and i will have a gold member just like john. "


HeeHee!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
If your member is gold how come your not getting a pop up?

John - "A well-made LP, in good condition, played with a quality turntable, pickup and cartridge, is much better than the best CD, for resolution, but not signal-to-noise ratio." That contribution from the man with the S-shaped tonearm. Buy the new Rega and see what happens to noise, John. One of the most dramatic improvements a better table and arm make is a substantial lowering of the noise you percieve when playing an LP. It comes from the more rigid system not allowing the slop that amounts to random movement between the record and the stylus. The cartridge coils can only respond to what is fed to them. If they are getting random signals from the stylus bouncing around in the record groove they can only reproduce that as random noise.

See, Gregory, that is how it works. John states an opinion, "he thinks LP's sound 'better' than CD's". That is an opionion. I state a fact, "the noise is from random motion of the stylus". That is a fact.
I didn't tell John he's an idiot for thinking this or that. DBT's and ABX's and CDR's and whatever alphabet you want to use (Italian has only 21 letters so be careful there) don't have anything to do with this.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 107
Registered: Jul-04
JV et al - sigh - here we go againnnnn . .
Wow! It still lives! Hadn't heard anything about the ole green pen in a lotta years. Now I have to dig into my CD library - I think I still have two pairs of those test CDs - not sure.
I'll try a NON-blind NON-objective test on my humble JVD player to see what I hear (is that po) ssible?) IF I still have the pairs.
Nice poking, JV, but all I know is what those 36 people claimed that they heard. How could I make the test any more scientific? Within budget and time constraints, that is. . .
It was quite interesting - after our test aired on the Tribune station (WGN-TV, CHI) it went out on CNN - and we got literally bags of mail on it. They must have sold a bundle of those pens!
One of the interesting outfalls of the report was that several CD player manufacturers contacted us or the pen-maker - asking if the green might work inside the entire CD compartment, not just as paint on the disc. Toshiba even made plans to bring out some units with green drawers and compartments - but scrapped the plans before implementing them.
After the reports I took one of the pens and coated an "early" Deutsche Grammophon CD - one that I listened to a lot - and hated because of its tinny sound. OK - here we go - I swear the sound was a tad warmer and cleaner. Yep - it IS what I wanted to hear! And did.
About a year later, I found that the pens had dried up, and I tossed them. No more green discs, but still a haunting memory.
Voodoo? Well, I guess perhaps. But if any of you is brave enough to order one, and use it, I'd sure like to know what YOU think! Especially on early-80s CDs, before they got better electronics involved in the manufacturing and playback process.
Whew! Getting as long-winded as _____ here!
Jan - I don't have the foggiest idea of what you do for a "profession," but your knowledge of things electronic and mathematical eclipses me. I let my wife deal with such things as one of her current projects: "String theory and paired-particles in universal binding." No, I don't understand that, either - I married above my pay grade! G R I N
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 108
Registered: Jul-04
Yo - Kegger:
Thanks to Jan, I've got an intres-ting site for you to access - all about some tube-type gear that sounds like something you might enjoy? At least it "reads good" to me! Don't let the fact that the amplifier folk are the same ones who made the CD Stoplight, BTW. . . Hmmm. . .

http://www.fullswing.com/audioprism/index.html

Enjoy - maybe. . . respectfully, Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1002
Registered: Dec-03
well jan "and anyone else" i have stated as many
times as i can, to me many things in audio "life for that matter"
are oppinions and i have no problem with someone
giving one. i have problems with people stating
them as facts.

and i think between this thread and old dogs i have
said all i need to say about what tubes do for me!

and if people want or don't want to believe that
is fine. "just don't call me a liar"

for most of what gregory has to say i respect. and
also follow the same oppinion. to me i think tubes
do have more distortion and the eq is different than
solid state. i also have seen lately that the very
bottom end of the audio spectrum to me is better
achieved by solid state. to me solid state does
a better better job at really low bass than tubes.

but for the rest of the spectrum tubes outdo solid
state. "for me"

and i think with all our other components having
vertually no distortion that what tubes add is
insignifacant.


maybe if i had a record player going into a tube
preamp to a tube amp to some not very clean speakers
i might feel different.

but if i have an sacd/dvd-a disk going to a tube
preamp to a really good solid state amp to some
clean speakers. i don't think anyone is going to
notice the distortion the tube preamp adds.

thats not knocking the tube amp or the turntable
but just using them in an example.


no jan my GOLDEN SABRE is allways up so their is
no need for it to POPUP.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Larry - That ol' black magic has me in its spell ... Dang I gotta stop with the songs in my head. Rick, where's the meds?
I used Stoplight on all my CD's back in the 80's and 90's. It stopped being conveniently available is the only reason I stopped. Maybe it's time to reinvest in some. It made a difference that was almost always to the benefit of my ears.

Kegger - re. "GOLDEN SABRE"

OOH! That could get uncomfortable.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1886
Registered: Dec-03
Can't keep up, guys.

Gregory; you're right about the heat tiles. Thanks. I expect both they and the foam were up to spec., though. But they interacted in a way that no-one had foreseen.

Kegger; The upstanding Mike Myers has a lot to answer for. Note that Jan has never registered so we don't know what sort of member he is/has. I think he has a team of people and horses writing for him.

Larry; even better is a double-blind trial where the investigators do not know which discs had green marks on, either. Suggestibility can do surprising things. I sold my wax cylinder collection for a song and replaced them all when shellac came in; wish I'd kept them, there was a certain distinctive cylinder sound that just doesn't come through in DVD-A. Still, 78 was good enough for Elgar. "All I know is what those 36 people claimed that they heard. How could I make the test any more scientific?". Then we get into statistics, too. Would it be better if the number in agreement was 37? If so, how much? Mrs R. may confirm that you do not even need parallel universes for there to be a finite probability that that there will be another sample in which all 36 thought the exact opposite. I liked the old slogan "Ten thousand lemmings can't be wrong".

Jan "open-the-lid" Vigne; thank you for the homework, again. Will return having read all, and mugged up a few answers, in a day or two. I think you may have misheard Silver, and his response was "neigh". Thanks for sleighting my S-shaped tonearm, again. Even that blows CD out of the aqua. I will consider an upgrade to RB300 in due course. Many thanks for all contributions Regoid. Cover assured, or perhaps removed completely, at least whilst awake. ' "the noise is from random motion of the stylus". That is a fact. ' No, I think it is caused by non-randon motion of the stylus, perturbed by bits of crud, warps in record, scratches, etc. Admittedly that is an opinion. These perturbations are not entirely random. Ask Mrs Larry R., it sound like she will know. Yes, all I state here is opinions. The only facts we have are "2 + 2 = 4" etc and, no, you cannot choose otherwise. Not and make sense. That is a fact. See where "2 + 2 = 5" gets you. You could have 5.1 without a center channel, that would be something.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 109
Registered: Jul-04
JV - on this site, I can never tell whether I'm reading truth, or being leg-pulled. So - IF you can, sir. Did you really use the Stoplight? Or am I naive and gullible enough to take your statements as fact? I'd like to think so, but. ..
Please - what differences did you hear? You appear to be a person of scientific bent, so please add to my knowledge base on this product.
I await John A.'s total pooh-pooh - so any backup I may get is welcome! Thanx - LR
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 110
Registered: Jul-04
John A.
As expected, I get from you a challenge to my posting. And as I stated in my original post - I think the experiment was valid, given the time, equipment, and budget we had to work with. It was, after all, a television report, not a research paper for Scientific American. (yes, TV is a very dumbed-down information source!)
Anyone else out there ever use the Stoplight? Hadn't thought of it in some time - but now maybe I'll order another one? I have so many CDs from the early to mid-80s that any help I can get re their sound quality is welcome!
U R correct about my dear wife - she'll be able to set me straight on a number of statistical possibilities. But oh, yes, she says to tell you you're off your rocker: 2 plus 2 equals 22. Try it, it works! GRIN
Respectfully - Larry R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 361
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Cat entrails? Obviously another clue to the nuns Watson. Let's press on!

Larry,

I'm not 100% sure, but I think I saw Stoplight in an "Audio Advisor" catalog not too long ago. Check it out online.

Kegger,

Congrats(I think) on the "GOLD".

JohnA.(aka Tonto),

Are you keeping up with all this?


almost forgot about the meds.......damn it's a long walk.....I wonder if they will deliver on Sunday? Must help Ranger, where's the phone.....................................?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1005
Registered: Dec-03
larry.

checked out your site very cool but very expensive.
at least for me.

so far i have not spent more than $1000 on a single
piece for my system.

if i'm looking for something that is around $1000
or higher i generally look to the used department.

i'm not saying everyone should but that's me just
trying to be thrifty.

usually if theirs something i want and it's a grand or
more i'll go for the one lower with the biggest
bang for the buck. or used.
so far into my electronics hobby that's been my
cut off point so to speak.

my tv though and my purchase of a projector have
and will exceed those bounderies.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger - I think you can definitely use some of the abbreviations that appear on this site as your own. i.e.; IMO, BTW, etc. You have INS (I'm not saying). It works for you and will save you typing so you can listen to more hifi. Unfortunately it will not suit John A. and me since we seldom say something we're not really saying. Give it a try and I'll bet it catches on.

Larry - I have been bent but it was a rather unscientific procedure. You asked about my profession. I sold retail for over 30 years, mostly high end audio visual gear and pro audio. I was the Master Electrician at the Dallas Theater Center for several years before the board of directors came in one day and told the Artistic Director they didn't know what good theater was but they didn't think he was doing it. He and several dozen others that had been there for as long as 26 years were told to not come back tomorrow. I was rehired but that's when the fight really started. I have a feeling you might understand how that can happen.
Anyway, yes, I sold and used Stoplight along with several other tweeks to try to get better sound from CD's. Stoplight worked, in theory, by stopping the light. It was determined that the substrate material for CD's let light travel to the edges of the disc much like fiber optics work. This random (OK with that here, John?) light was then reintroduced into the laser assembly and was an out of phase signal at low level, somewhat like tape echo from magnetic transfer through layers of tightly wound audio tape. By blocking this light the laser could respond to more information off the disc and less that was stray info. This is why the manufacturers were looking into painting the inside of the chasis green. Green absorbed the red laser light. Since that time the wavelenghth of the laser has been changed and I don't know if Stoplight will effect the same enhancement. For the price of a used disc though it's worth a try. The effect you are going to get is a softening of the hard edges that make your shoulders climb up around your ears after you've listened for awhile. It is, in essence taking away the IM distortion that is caused by the interference signal.
Another tweek from that time period was using a disc damper. Mod Squad made one for several years. It was slightly heavier than a CD disc that had an outer ring for a flywheel effect. It sat on top of the CD in the tray and stabilized the motion and movement of the little piece of plastic spinning at up to 500 RPM. It also was designed to give a smoother sound by eliminating the slight (remember the dimensions of the "groove" we're talking about here)variations between the fixed laser height, the movable laser position as it went into error correction and the variable height of the disc surface. Another variation was to put rings around the outer edges of the CD to accomplish sveral benefits at once. Early in CD's life the major emphasis on cleaning up the sound was an effort to keep error correction to a minimum. Now every player has a 45 second error correction circuit built in and error correction is just asumed to be a part of digital playback. I still am with John on the idea that I like the playback systems that have no error correction. It's like servos, I would rather have the information colected and presented in the most coherent manner rather than have a circuit that admits things are going to go wrong and after they do THEN steps in to see if it can make things better. You know, kind of like, "Mother, please! I'd rather do it myself!!!"

I like your wive's math. Everything that is presented as information may not necessarilty apply to the situation at hand. John sometimes wishes things to be as simple as possible (no problem with that, John) where I often see that 2 + 2 = 4 is not the same as 4 = 2.75 + 1.25. As I have said rather loudly this time, I don't care how you get there just see my point of view.

John A. - No sleight intended. Many (OK, not that many, maybe a few, no, make that a couple. I think.) of fine (well, not all THAT fine but not knockered either!) arm has taken a curvacious (just not a "S" shape, more like a "J" shape and their usually a whole lot longer, like 12" [easy there, Kegger, not discusing the ol' Sabre] and they cost a whole lot more than what your arm or mine did) route to musical Nirvana (now that you press me on the topic, Nirvana may be too strong of a word here). (And I bet you think that came out of the back end of a team of horses, huh, John. Yes, I can shovel it as well as ... never mind, the administrator doesn't like it when I use words like that) But hey, you've got an arm! Kegger is armless for life it does appear.

Holmes - Cat entrails! HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! You're so pathetic in your attempts to ensnare me with your "vaunted" logic. Cat entrails was merely a Kippered Red Herring to see if you would take the "bait".
You'll never defeat me, you misguided, privately funded hawkshaw!!!

............................... Moriarty ........
 

Moriarty
Unregistered guest
Watson - Isn't this where you make some comment about Holmes and sax and violins?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 363
Registered: Dec-03
Fiendishly clever Watson. Moriarty is as always, a most worthy adversary. Kippered Red Herring? Well a Peck of Pickled Peppers to you.
We will track down that nun,I swear it.

Now bring my violin Watson, and fill MY prescription, if you would be so kind my good doctor.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Larry - I believe you have Polk RTi6's don't you? If so give this guy some advise.

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/75866.html
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 112
Registered: Jul-04
Jan et al -
It is with great (?) sadness that I report to y'all that, according to several Online dealers, "Audioprism has closed its doors and has ceased producction of its products." Well, now - I guess that means that we'all can't have any more of the CD Stoplight, can we? Hmmm. . . It apparently came very quickly, and caught a lot of people off-guard.
Like so many things today, in this uncertain economy, here today, pffttttt tonight. Same as me, and a number of people: here today, gone tonight to make way for a Hispanic nymphet with no skills other than great, uh, hair. Sigh.
OK - away to some reading and some music, and no more tweaks for now! Thanx, all. Larry R.
 

Prof. M
Unregistered guest
Holmes - Your prescription? And what, pray tell is your weakness? Bah, no need to tell the world. You and I both know your weakness and your fraility. And I will exploit it whenever necessary to defeat you. Petitioning a parish priest to poorly pick a peck of pickled purple peppers (three times fast) will do you no good, Holmes. You will never find - The Nun! Never do you hear? Never. Never!
I'll give you a hint; she sells seashells by the sea side Shell station.
But enough about me.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1006
Registered: Dec-03
jan this i agree.

"Kegger - I think you can definitely use some of the abbreviations that appear on this site as your own. i.e.; IMO, BTW, etc. You have INS (I'm not saying). It works for you and will save you typing so you can listen to more hifi. Unfortunately it will not suit John A. and me since we seldom say something we're not really saying. Give it a try and I'll bet it catches on. "

but on that last post that i used all of those it
was to make sure of my intentions.

but i do agree i could try to use more abbreviations.
i could also type better/spell better/use better
punctuation in fact just plain take an english class.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1890
Registered: Dec-03
Moriarty,

The contributor who bemoaned the quantity of sax and violins in the modern world is indisposed. It is unanimously hoped that this is a temporary state of affairs.

Jan,

Thank you for explaining the underlying principle of Stoplight. I have two grounds for scepticism.

One; it does not have to be green. Black would be better. "Green" seems to me like the conjurer's attention-grabbing gesture that is designed to stop people from looking too closely at the rabbit and the hat.

Two; how come disc makers did not tumble to this internal reflections business? Do they not wish to give the punter the best possible sound?

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating.

BTW (a TLA: three-letter acronym) I once took my Marantz Cd player completely apart, and took away the retaining flap (its spring was pulling to one side, causing mistracking). The weight of one CD, with no other downward pressure, was sufficient to give perfect tracking, once you had got the disc actually spinning. The only problem was that a stationary disc did not have enough friction to start with the platform it was on, and carried on spinning for a while after the platform had stopped. My next best audio tweak (after opening the lid of the Rega) was to pack something 20-30 g (say an ounce) of Blu-Tac into the spaces in the retaining flap of the Marantz Cd player, and throw away the spring-clip. The player has worked fine like this for about 10 years. That is called a "mod", I think. There is no skipping, and no trade-off. I never understood why CD players are designed with spring clips, as if people want to keep open the possibility of using them upside down, on the surface of much smaller planets, or in, say, accelerating elevators (lifts) where you might have to worry about the CD's inertial mass, as well as its gravitational mass. A CD player is not, as they say, rocket science.
 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 117
Registered: Jul-04
John A. - if I might speak to some of your points to JV, please.
First, according to the Stoplight manufacturer, Audioprism, the pen DID have to be green. Apparently their scope-testing proved to them that black did not absorb the laser light as well as the green. That was their point, anyway.
Second, some disc-makers DID address the issue of stray light - and after the piece we did on the CD Stoplight, I talked with some company reps. Telarc was most forthcoming, telling me that they had in the works some plans for green-infused discs, and were, indeed, testing such when I talked with them. Don't know what happened, but I've never seen any of them.
Decca had similar testing in the works, but the woman with whom I talked said she was not allowed to give out any information - other than to admit to the testing. No green discs from them, either.
Meanwhile, the point you raise about "disc mats" on top of CDs is of interest, as there are new "believers" cropping up these days.
From what I read - and perhaps you or Jan can further enlighten me here - these "mats" are designed both to reduce vibration, and thus "jitter," and also to (here we go again) stop stray light bounce-around. This time, however, the mats tend to be black rubber, not green plastic.
My wife took a look at some of these postings and suggested that I take some of my rubber gasket material, use a cruddy CD as template, and cut (razor blade) out a CD-sized piece, then put it atop a CD and see if it does anything other than to spin off and clog up the player! She mentioned something about zero-effect nulls, but I drifted off at that point.
Heck, I'll do anything to get better sound, if it doesn't cost huge sums! I know, John, I DO need a better player - coming in September, I promise!!!
Back to editing a really stupid Master's thesis on "prominent gayy composers." How's that for a waste of education time? But heck, the guy is paying me to "clean up" his work, so I'm obliged to wade through it (good description, eh?).
More anon - - Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1892
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Now I think of it, some of my CDs (EMI I think) do have black rings around the outside. They look as if they are in mourning. I do not think there is much jitter in Cds, they are nicely balanced, as you know from their motion as frisbees. Some dealers and libraries stick labels on them, though; that is not a good idea, I should have thought. It was quite arresting to see and hear a CD playing with no downward force except its own small weight.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1894
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

Thanks for Fitzhugh. This thread is going so fast I cannot keep up. There were different pitch standards in different places until standard pitch was agreed. There was also a = 405 Hz and a host of others. That can be seen from historical wind instruments in museums and collections, also church organs. I can see why someome might advocate abandoning standard pitch altogother, yes it is arbitrary. But just adopting another single standard seems perverse. It is a bit like trying to change 0 degrees longitude so that instead of going through Greenwich it goes through, say, the Guinness factory in Dublin, or the Eiffel Tower, in Paris. What is gained?

Jan,

Going several feet up the page. Great. Call an inquisition. Call the court physician. I cannot see what M.C Escher has to do with it, however. Moving on, thanks for the consolation about S-shaped tonearms. I have done my best with arming Kegger. But he points out that it is sensible to get a turntable only if you actually own LPs.

That is a strong point, in my view.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 196
Registered: Mar-04
Kegger said,
"...but i do agree i could try to use more abbreviations.
i could also type better/spell better/use better
punctuation in fact just plain take an english class."

My bottom fermented friend, PLEASE DO NOT change your writing style. Its what makes you so uniquely - YOU.
I have learned an awful lot during the few short months I've been here, and much of that has come from you. If you start changing your style now, I'd have to start questioning everything you've ever written here. And that, Kegger, would be a shame.

:-)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Well should we buy horses only if we have a buggy? What if we have a barn? That is 2 + 2 = 5.1, is it not? Facts are once again getting in the way of logic.
I prefer to think we should all have the opportunity, if not the obligation, to jump on our trusty steed and, after a dramatic rearing up on its hind legs, we can race our equine companion like the wind across the prairie to the strains of "The William Tell Overture". But then that's me. Tonto may have a different opinion since he never got the dramatic entrance and may once again tell me I am being politically incorrect in my latent prairieism.

Esher? Escher is perception, my dear man; and, if you cannot percieve what Esher has to offer, I shall not point you in any direction other than forward.

Yes, Fitzhugh has his points. My favorite is "How does it make you feel?" This is a topic for Kegger to explore for us. I have never had an explanation of what happened to people with perfect pitch when the pitch standard was other than A440. Obviously every note played would be wrong to someone who's pitch is defined by the contemporary standard. Was their "contemporary standard" movable to accommodate A415 or other "standards"? Or did they exist in a world of agony where every church bell was excrutiating? If they were able to adapt to the changing standards what does that say about "perfect pitch"? Is it just a modern contrivance that afflicts a poor, downtrodden minority?

John A. wrote:

"Thank you for explaining the underlying principle of Stoplight. I have two grounds for scepticism.

One; it does not have to be green. Black would be better. "Green" seems to me like the conjurer's attention-grabbing gesture that is designed to stop people from looking too closely at the rabbit and the hat.

Two; how come disc makers did not tumble to this internal reflections business? Do they not wish to give the punter the best possible sound?

But the proof of the pudding is in the eating."

My answer to this is:

One; black is the absence of all color, which in terms of your vision may mean no reflection of light waves of any length (color) will reach your retina but that is another one of those theory only items much like our discussion of sinewaves. The concept of black works well in theory but poorly in the real world. There is no "black" in the natural world as we percieve it around us. There are things that are similar to black; but, like Bob Carver's 90% similarity to a tube amp, close only counts in horseshoes. (Silver has no input on this matter.) So the best alternative is to use the analogous color which can more easily be made to absorb, not reflect, the red beam in its entirity. This is similar to the simple and observable effect of using a pale yellow gel in a theatrical instrument and observing the pale blue shadow that is cast due to the absence of the yellow lightwaves. No combination of colored gel material can achieve a black color on any surface, not even a black floor.

Two; there you go again, thinking the needs of a small group of audiophiles who distain buying the "popular" music of the day have any meaning in terms of marketing $'s to the inventors of Compact Disc. It is perfect sound forever, is that not enough for you people??? I would have thought by now that has been repeated often enough to make it a fact. Have you simply not been paying attention? Please, step this way, Room 101 is just ahead.
This is an area where I feel I may be beating a dead horse of my own persausion, but, we are looking at an example of if it doesn't measure so, it cannot be so. Further, if we can't hear it (or choose not to hear it) no one else can either. Besides, look at the nice remote we have designed.
Error correction, similarly to servos as I have pointed out, was seen as the panacea of digital recording. Both systems admitted the inherent flaws in the basic structure of the system but said not to worry we can correct it. We can rebuild that waveform, we can make that waveform better, stronger. We have the technology ... and, unlike "The Six Million Dollar Man", it never quite worked out that way.
Waiting for something to go wrong and then fixing it never seemed, to me, to be the best approach to most things in life. (Adaptablity in all endeavors I understand but not waiting for the failures to occur.) So the efforts of the Disc designers was to maximize convenience and let the other things work themselves out on their own. Then along came MPEG2 & 3 and iPods and here we are today. Few among us know what a real instrument played in an acoustic space sounds like and fewer still have the ability to create a rational similarity to playing an instrument. There is your result of a dumbed down society that was facinated by the reports on TV of a green pen. (No offense meant, Larry.)

As to placing any sort of stabilizing disc on top of a spinning piece of dead dinosaur there is caution to be raised. Most "modern" CD and DVD players are not happy with the addition of any material other than the disc itself. One reason damping discs went out of fashion is the warranty issue of who will pay for the extraction of the discs when it was clearly not the manufacturer's intent to play more than one disc at a time. It became a silly issue since most players can be "repaired" by merely removing the top plate and extracting the disc, a procedure that amounts to about 2-3 minutes time. But particularly with changers more than the disc itself can cause problems in today's players. Why I do not know since an improvement in the transport mechanism has not occurred over the majority of the market. If anything, the majority of players have a transport that has been made cheaper for mass production ... Oh, wait a minute ... I think I'm catching on.

Anon.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger - I didn't mean to ask you to alter your writing style in anyway and I wasn't commenting on your typing skills. As Sem says, they R U.
I was merely marvelling at how adaptable your world view seems. Some of us on this forum will rant and rail against percieved wrongs and waste many words rebutting a simple "is" instead of "are". You, on the otherhand, are completely comfortable with your opinions and embrace them as your own and no one else's. It matters not to you what John A. seeks in terms of "Acuracy" in reproduction other than you obviously respect his search. You have what is important to you in your system and that is all you desire (other than beer). Your search for new sound quality is not so much for accuracy as it is for the experience of something you haven't known before. That leads you to INS as your world view. You respect everyone's right to a different opinion but you are secure in your own. Quite admirable.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1017
Registered: Dec-03
wwhhooo jan when you go you go baby.

the technical stuff i can follow.

but the pholosiphy and quotes i'm lost on.
also what is this? "Yes, Fitzhugh has his points. My favorite is "How does it make you feel?" This is a topic for Kegger to explore for us"

just so you didn't take it the wrong way either jan
what you had to say i did not take as a slam. i
just know that my english skills leave much to be desired. I KNOW THAT IS A FACT! LOL

and i appreciate the coments from you also sir.

I don't know why many people have problems with other peoples
likes and dislikes or oppinions. personally i welcome
them. they make me think that there are other ways of
doing things. and by looking at it this way you
may learn something.

 

Silver Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 120
Registered: Jul-04
J. Vigne et al
Where to begin? First, JV, I don't take offense at your comments dumb public and green pen - the whole thing was an "interesting" experiment on my part - out of boredom and ticked-offedness at what was then happening in the B-cast industry. And remember, JV, you used the nutzy pen for a number of years! Yep.
As to the perfect pitch folk - well, they hear A-415 as roughly A-flat. At least my friend Joanie Lum in Chicago says that's the way she hears it. As to bells - well, she says they are never in tune, and just "clang" in her head.
Aha! the Great "disc mat" situation! Well - per my earlier comments, I took my wife's probably snide suggestion and cut out a piece of my thin, black rubber gasket material. Used a CD-R disc as template.
Then, carefully put it atop one of my really awful Deutsche Gramophon CDs - one of the ones that screech and drive me NUTZ!!! (whoa, there)
Well, I laugh now, but didn't then - when I tried to close the liddle disc-drawer. Wham-oh! Seems, as you comment, the JVC folks do NOT want anything other than a single disc in their slots! No, sireee! Off came the disc mat, and it caught in the drawer as it was closing. Clunk.
I tried pushing "open," but nothing. Rather alarmed now, I turned off the player, then very carefully inserted a table knife between the drawer top and the unit's cabinet. Prying ever-so-gently, I was able to "bend" the drawer down until the disc mat broke free. S I G H ! ! !
I won't be trying that again, friends! The miserable DG discs sit in a pile - waiting for their ultimate fate: a trip to the local library, where unwary souls may hear them. I guess at least it's a tax write-down? Hmmm. . .
I try to keep up with all of your posts, but find it nearly impossible - so if I've overlooked anything of great import - send it through again: old dogs and new tricks, you know! G R I N
Respectfully, Larry R.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1895
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say, no "Black is Black" (I forget the name of the band) and safer, and blue would do just as well as green. Anything that is non-red, really.

I agree with Sem and others in their comments about Kegger and his writing style. It is the complete opposite of "Gramophone" reviews where they write in perfect English and have nothing to say. You keep posting, please, Sir! It doesn't matter how you spell "common sense". It is good stuff in any language.

Larry, no, no; perfect pitch folk hear A-415 as A-415. Tell them it is A and A-440 becomes B flat, to them. It is all relative, you see. Kegger, it refers to Larry's link in the post August 01, 2004 - 10:44 am; yards up the page. Fitzhugh is mad, imho, like people who want to make laws for pi to be 3 and there to be 10 hours in a day.

I still think investing in a turntable is probably wise only if you have, or intend to get, records to play on it. You can use a turntable for many other things, sure, but there are usually cheaper ways. Ditto open-reel tape machines. Like a fish needs a bicycle etc. See, Tonto may have only bit part, but has ear close to ground.... And he watch out for them lemmings.
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