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Archive through June 01, 2004

 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 261
Registered: Feb-04
Too Late John A - watched it last week? But thanks for the kind thought - Hugh Grant as Prime Minister. For LOL! Well now what would that do for the Old Country?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 890
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

The current real PM often goes on what the press calls a "Charm offensive". It is wearing a bit thin, frankly. Hugh Grant would blow him away on that. Probably on some other things, too. I will buy that movie and treasure it. The lunacy of the No. 10 press conference where the PM flipped and said what he REALLy thought of the Anglo-American "special relationship", purely because the US president, standing next to him, had made a pass at his secretary/PA. Surreal.

Thought you were away in Byron Bay, but I re-read and see it is Saturday. I too have trouble finding my glasses...

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 895
Registered: Dec-03
Jan, Gregory, 2c, John S, and others,

Going back to recommendations of "classical" (I do not know what that word means, in the broad sense).

There is a weekly BBC Radio 3 programme, of four hours, where they give about 45 minutes to a review, by one person (different each week), to all currently available recordings of one piece of music. You can hear the most recent issue of the whole programme, in lo-fi (Real player) on the internet:

CD Review

The current one ( they change over after the show goes out on Saturday) is doing Leonard Bernstein's "Chichester Psalms".

Over the years I have very occasionally rushed out and bought something on their recommendation, the only real dud, for me, being a complete LP set of the Beethoven Quartets (that was a rash decision, and the show was called "Stereo Review" in those days).

Anyway, more to the point, they also now have complete playlists for everything, and a database of recommendations:

Building a Library

I thought of this after Jan's wonderful post about Shostakovich.

The database gives the following as the reviewer's first recommendation for the quartets, though I remember hearing it and the poor guy had problems because the performance he rated most was by a Russian group (I forget - could have been The Shostakovich Quartet) and not then on release.

Composer/Artist:SHOSTAKOVICH, D.
Title:STRING QUARTET NO.9
Artist(s):Fitzwilliam String Quartet
Conductor:
Record No:DECCA/LONDON 455 776-2 (6 CD)
Price Band:BUDGET
Coupled With:The String Quartets
Reviewer:NASH, Peter Paul
Review Date:07 October 2000

That show is a good source of informed opinion, and you can actually hear extracts, too. I am not sure if there are comparable shows in other countries.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 490
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

NPR (or National Public Radio) has published a few years back a book talking about and listing what they consider to be an essential classical library and then give their opinions on the best recordings.

Of course, quite a few of these are LP's and probably the remainder are either cd copies or cd's. This came out before the advent of surround recordings. But even if it didn't, the odds of having the best performances of classicalo pieces done in the last 3-4 years aren't high.

I wish someone with an incredibly fat wallet and a great desire would obtain all the great master tapes and get the best engineers and have them properly mixed on DVD-A, SACD, and at minimum CD's. Bill Gates--where are you when we need you :-) ?
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 899
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory,

I really liked NPR when I was in the States. The "Building a library" database goes back to 1995. But it is not, and never was, a slot for new releases; they consider everything currently available in the catalogue, and then some things that aren't. Though, admitedly, they aren't recherche enough to recommend things you can't actually buy. Some of the newer digital clean-ups of historical recordings are amazingly good. I am not into that myself, but have heard some, in good hi-fi, on that show.

Please don't give Mr Gates any more ideas! He's done enough damage. The last thing you would get would be "the best engineers and have them properly mixed". You'd get more watermarking than music, so they could be played only with Mediaplayer 5.1 or some other proprietory audiophobe format that had built-in bugs, addressed in the next version, with different ones . And we need another format like we need a hole in the head. Sony have already taken a leaf out that book, in my unhumble opinion.

And I am pretty sure the reason the beeb uses Real Audio (they've got the nerve to call their version of the player "BBC player") instead of Quicktime (much better) is to prevent anybody saving files. They say you cannot jump to different points in their streams on a certain operating system for technical reasons. It is BS. It is because, if you could do that, you could save the file. Everyone's into making things property. Personally, I count music as an "inclusive good". It should be free, like air.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 497
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

I was teasing on the Bill Gates remark. I meant any rich interested benefactor that loves classical music. Like what Scorcese has done to get money to restore old classic films in the US. Scorcese has been in a rush, as many of the old film masters are rapidly deteriorating.

The current problem with getting the best orchestras and soloists to perform properly miked and mixed surround recordings is that there isn't a big enough market for surround yet, nevermind not that large of a market for classical in general. The best we can hope for is very good orchestras and soloists that aren;t yet top dollar and having companies willing to subsidize and market these recordings. Hopefully there will be a renaissance in classical music interest in the world creating a larger demand.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 901
Registered: Dec-03
Gregory,

Yes, I understood the Gates remark. My reply was intended in a similar spirit....

I am waiting for flames from Ghia. I am beginning to get the impression DVD-A/SACD is going to be Macintosh/Windows all over again. Plus ca change....
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 902
Registered: Dec-03
Following on from "rich interested benefactor", of course it's a great idea.

I read Gates has been displaced as World's Richest Man by the founder-director of IKEA. We could try him. But I get the impression he listens to a wind-up gramophone. If he plays anything, it is most likely the piano accordion.

And, if their furniture shows which way the consumer wind is blowing, we can forget high-resolution formats completely.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 65
Registered: Apr-04
Actually, JohnA, if you want to talk "proprietory" lets discuss Apple's iTunes and their use of AAC files which will only play on iPods - unless you take the added step of re-ripping an already compressed file into MP3 format. And, as iPod owner, I can testify that Microsoft doesn't have a monopoly on "built-in bugs". My iPod Mini has a peculiar habit of freezing on a regular basis, requiring a reset of it - and, if you read iPod forums, you'll see this is affecting many iPod users - it's eerily similar to the NAD posts on this board - people love the product but are frustrated by the problems. This past weekend, the freeze was so hard that, after doing a reset, all my songs were missing. The only course of recovery was to wipe the iPod clean and restore the software - not just the songs - the software. In fact, I had to do this twice to get it stablized. Sort of reminded me of the Win95 days.

As for Billg, I have an admiration for the guy. Certainly, as a Msft employee, I miss the days when he was running the company. Back then, we wanted to dominate and make money - but, at least we had fun doing it. Now, under Ballmer's "leadership", it's only about making money - but all the fun is gone and has been replaced by a soulless, corporate environment where you keep waiting for your turn to be replaced by outsourcers in India.

Now, the type of project Gregory mentioned would probably be up the alley of another Microsoft-made Billionaire, Paul Allen. He opened that music museum in Seattle and would be a good candidate for something like this. Although - Paul Allen seems to be more of a rock'n'roll kind of guy. Still, who knows? Maybe we could write up a proposal and send it to him.

 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 911
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Thank you. Lot to say. Quickly, the point is an iPod is essentially a small hard drive with Firewire and audio out. You can record and play (write and read) pretty well anything, .aac, .mp3, even .aiff and .wav files. I guess you could plug it into a Pioneer receiver (Gregory?) and get real hi-fi.

In contrast, Sony's answer to the iPod has just been unveiled; it will only "write" files in some esoteric format owned by Sony. They deserve to die, in my opinion. They want to own customers, that is my point. The only reason we have the internet is because a guy in Geneva decided to take the "Hypercard" approach to make the simplest possible program in a universal file format, .txt., for linking database records in any human language on any computer platform and operating system, free, and the GUI was introduced by NCSA in Urbana Illinois on the same principle, and was free.

The revolutions that benefit human beings come from people who do not demand an assurance in advance that they will be able to maintain a monopoly; the ones who do just hold things up; they pretend to be our friends and are not. Sorry to be terse. I am at work and will write more, and more politely, at the weekend.

Thank you! Much appreciated! Will be back!

BTW .aac sounds better than .mp3 and makes smaller files, too. It is better. It is not a plot. Will substantiate that, but not right now.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 194
Registered: Dec-03
Urbana, Illinois?

Isn't that where the HAL 9000 first went operational?

Sorry.....I was time traveling in a different dimension.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 500
Registered: Dec-03
Actually you can plug the IPOD into any receiver or preamp with firewire or USB jacks. But I think you might even be able to get an adapter for other inputs, as long as the bandwidth is fast enough to accept the signal feed.

That said, you still aren't going to get the resolution of a well-made cd. But I am sure it is fine for the majority of the population.

Current receivers and preamps are basically computer cards with amplifiers. So it is inevitable that the convergence of computers and high quality sound will be availble at as reasonable price. The main issue holding things up is the program providers/software providers are reluctant to have higher quality than MP3 in a downloading format. Copying fears dominate the industry.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 70
Registered: Apr-04
John A.

You asked to be flamed and I obliged. ;-) My main point is Apple does have a proprietary use of AAC files in regards to iTunes and the iPod. And, as you pointed out Sony has their own thing coming out which, in my opinion is worse than any action Msft has taken in regards to Windows media.

For the record, the songs I ripped from CD's to computer were all done using AAC at 320kbps because I understand that AAC sounds better than MP3. However, I have a friend - not a msft employee - who will argue til his death that WMA is better than AAC. At this point, WMA is more accessible to all MP3 players - except the iPod of course since Apple has chosen to block WMA.

I use the dock accessory to plug the iPod into my integrated amp. The sound is acceptable (and quite convenient) for party situations or if I'm using it as background music for chores. For real listening, I always use the original source.

Who has a monopoly? I would suggest that the market place plays a large part in driving that. Before I worked for Msft, I ran a Novell shop. At that time, Novell Netware was the market leader for network operating systems. Msft was able to overtake them, in part, due to our own aggressiveness (what's wrong with that in business) but Novell did quite a bit to help us out when they spent hundreds of millions to buy the WordPerfect suite in an effort to compete with Word. Unfortunately, for them, they not only wasted money on a technology they did not understand but this also took resources away from and weakened their strongest asset, Netware. This little fact didn't stop them from getting their home senator, Horrid Hatch, to jump on the lawsuit bandwagon.

I know I'm outnumbered if I try to offer up a defense of Msft so, this will be my last post about that. The fact I use a PB at home I think says a lot about where I am now in regards to the Wintel world. But, still, I do get a paycheck from them and I don't subscribe to the "evil empire" view - I always use that in quotations as I understand there are folks out there who hate the company regardless. I would just ask that you remember that "human beings" work there and we do a hell of a lot of good in our communities (as Microsoft representatives - the company encourages and empowers us with this) that you never hear about.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 236
Registered: Dec-03
i know most people hate microsoft, many who i work with.

being in the computer industry you find a lot.

i personally have no problem with them they make
the os and other software i need to get my job done.

and it works fine for me. so keep it comin!

long live microsoft.
viva la microsoft!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 79
Registered: Dec-03
Does anybody know what Microsoft is going to do with Pacific Microsystems and HDCD?
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 176
Registered: Feb-04
I've read that MS is supporting the new HD-DVD format developed by Toshiba/NEC. Of course, Sony and others, including HP and Dell I believe, are behind a competing format, Blu-ray. Here we go again...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 73
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks to some recommendations here, I've got a boatload of CD/DVD-A/SACD's coming in.

CD's
----
Loretta Lynn - Van Lear Rose
Willie Nelson - The Great Divide (no one recommended this but I heard "The Condition my Condition is In" and decided to get this. Tower had a used copy for 7.99)

Naxos CD's
------------
American Classics - Barber: Orchestral W
Gershwin: Rhapsody In Blue, Piano Concer
Corelli: Concerti Grossi Op 6 No 7-12 /
American Classics Sampler
Beethoven: Symphonies Nos 5 & 6 / Edling
Mozart: Eine Kleine Nachtmusik / Sobot

DVD-A
------
Blue Man Group

SACD
-----
Aimee Mann - Bachelor No2
Miles Davis - Kind of Blue

DVD
----
The Last Waltz


I'm still waiting for my equipment to ship but the speaker cable and interconnects arrived yesterday. The anticipation builds!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Black_math

Post Number: 80
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

You may want to check out the SACD of Alison Krause & Union Station live. It sounds excellent.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 178
Registered: Feb-04
Ghia,

That's a fabulous set of music you're getting! I can tell you're thoughtful about selecting your music. (Where's Jolie Holland btw???) The classical cds are especially fine.

Fyi I bought a used copy of Lost In Space last weekend. It's on my current rotation along with the other cd I got, Ryan Adams' "Gold." I plan on picking up "Van Lear Rose" this weekend.

I've heard the Kind of Blue SACD is great. When you get your multi-ch system up, you'll have to let us know how it sounds. Do you have a cd or lp version to compare it to? OK, I know that's a geeky request.

If you like Beck, I strongly recommend getting the "Sea Change" SACD or DVD-A. It's one of the best multi-ch recordings I've heard. The album is fantastic, if a bit of a downer. Actually, if you like Aimee Mann and Elliot Smith, "Sea Change" might not be much of stretch. I've tried to describe the album to others, but without success. (Example: If Nick Drake were alive today, it's the kind of album he'd record.) Simply, it's a musical world unto itself and perfect for multi-channel listening. All channels including the sub are used extensively to envelope the listener in Beck's musical world.

It seems like you have some great music to listen to. Enjoy!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 74
Registered: Apr-04
2c,

My list is much longer than what I was able to buy this week. Jolie Holland will make the next go round. ;-)

The Naxos CD's came about partly from the comments here and partly from Naxos recommendation on building a classical library. This is a good start to go along with the Beethoven 9th and Mahler 5th recordings I already have. Hopefully, one day, I'll be able to carry on an intelligent conversation about this genre like some of the folks posting here.

Any thoughts on Pachabel's Canon? I have a wonderful recording of that by the Paillard Chamber Orchestra. It seems a little "lightweight" but I find it to be a very beautiful piece.

Unfortunately, I don't have another version of "Kind of Blue" to which I can compare the SACD. My other Miles CD's are "Birth of the Cool" and "Cookin with the Miles Davis Quintet". I was debating on whether to get SACD's of albums I already have or to go with the new format to get additional albums. For the immediate future, I'll probably get the SACD/DVD-A versions of albums I don't yet have.

I do have a redbook CD of "Bachelor No2" that I can do a comparison on. I'll do that as well as give a report on "Kind of Blue" once the system is in place.

"Sea Change" is a great album! I have the HDCD version of it but will probably get the DVD-A version, too. To me, this is one of those albums that works best if you can sit back with the lights low and your favorite "substance" in hand and listen to it start to finish. Have you heard Beck's rendition of Hank Williams' "Your Cheatin' Heart"? It is the highlight of an outstanding album, "Timeless: Hank Williams Tribute".
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 180
Registered: Feb-04
Ghia,

I actually bought the PCO recording of Pachelbel's Canon a long time ago. I remember taking it up to the register and the store clerk looking at it with disdain and actually telling me how much he disliked the Canon. (It was one of those snobby classical music stores.) Anyway, I think it's a lovely baroque piece and justifiably popular. It's a nice counterpoint to all those heavy Romantic German works.

I should've known you already had "Sea Change." It sounds like you know how special it is. Think of the DVD-A version this way: the album through six speakers must be three times as good as through two speakers :-D I haven't heard Beck's rendition of "Your Cheatin' Heart," but I bet it's good. Funny, the highlight of the White Stripes concert I saw last year was their rendition of Dolly Parton's "Jolene." Do I detect a trend here?

"Cookin" was my first Miles album. Now I have all his Prestige albums. If you like Cookin, you'll probably like "Workin" and "Relaxin." I'd been listening to "Kind of Blue" since high school. A few years ago, someone at Sony realized the album had been recorded at the wrong speed and they ended up correcting it. The music on the remastered version was, I believe, a half tone different from the previous version. When I heard the remastered version, I thought it sounded off because of what I had been accustomed to, but I guess it's closer to how Miles and the band actually played it. It's still one of my Desert Island Jazz Classics, along with Coltrane's "Blue Train" and "A Love Supreme"; Hank Mobley's "Soul Station"; and "Ella and Louis Again" among others. So much great music to listen to, so little time...
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 237
Registered: Dec-03
JOHN A.

i just sent you emails with speaker pic's they
should be small enough for you to get.

let me know what you think they are in the middle
stage of being done you'll notice all the bracing
inside the speaker, their originally was none.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 916
Registered: Dec-03
KEGGER,

Thanks! I will pick them up and report back. I am "out of the loop" over here, and have just written a lot of things, off-line, in reponse to the previous posts. I will post that first, or else I will never catch up. I'll report back on the speakers later today. All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 917
Registered: Dec-03
All,

As before you have the shortest loop, and the liveliest discussion, when I am out of it, because of time zones. It must be rather boring to you for me to rewind, but I have no option. I enjoy your posts so much. They are provocative and interesting. But this is a very wide-ranging thread. As before, wish we could actually talk about these things.

Rick,

Yes, the same Urbana, Illinois! Clever of Arthur C. Clarke to name Urbana as the "Birthplace" of HAL (move each letter on one in the alphabet and you get...no, he had not foreseen that!). Did you not know the real location of the National Center for Supercomputing Applications? My word how they changed the world. We should not have this forum without them, for a start. NCSA and Urbana should be in every history book. Perhaps it was too recent to qualify. And, re Kegger's and Ghia's comments, Microsoft stood in the way. Or tried to... NSCA delivered, free, to MS and to all users of its software, the first browser for Windows - as for all operating systems. That was its job. What heroes. And who makes all the money? The obstacle to progress, that's who. It is strange.

Gregory,

Thanks. I owe you several replies to related messages on different threads. This is no. 1

"That said, you still aren't going to get the resolution of a well-made cd"

I do not see why not. With firewire you are delivering the digital stream to the DAC in the receiver. No transport; no power transformer, just a lithium battery powering a read-out. The best-made CD is simply a medium to carry an .aiff file. iPod (any any comparable device) should be an audiophile dream. If one accepts that "CD quality" is the benchmark (which I do not, as you know). I should have tried it by now if I had a Firewire/iLink receiver. That is why I put "(Gregory?)"! Hope that's OK... I have tried an iPod with analogue and find I really cannot tell the difference between the iPod DAC and the ones in my various CD players, not reading .aiff files. (My test was Mahler 1 CBSO/Rattle). The analogue output from iPod is quite small, comparable to that of a moving magnet pickup cartridge. But its S/N must be about the highest obtainable in that medium. Surely....?

"The main issue holding things up is the program providers/software providers are reluctant to have higher quality than MP3 in a downloading format."

There is absolutely no technical problem for anybody who wants to swap CD files over a network. That worries some people. As I have said, I think the primary purpose of SACD is to do something about that. The rest is hype, mostly.

If I am right about the persistent behaviour pattern of Microsoft, I would predict that HDCD is addressed primarily to that issue, but it will be hidden under hype about better sound. Anyone know differently? Anyone copied and HDCD file, or managed to burn an HDCD? I am always pleased to have have my fears proved groundless. What is the HDCD file format? How do you write one? Let me guess....

Ghia,

Flames from you are a pleasure to receive! I will still try to dodge the general issue of Microsoft's total contribution to human happiness and well-being. I don't think it is called for, here, honestly. But let me just say that Novell and Wordperfect are just members of a helluva long queue of people who were mugged, with a quite legitimate grievance. It goes all the way back to MS-DOS. I could fill this post with names just off the top of my head. Sounds like you have heard it before! " this will be my last post about that". OK, truce!. But a general point: "the company encourages and empowers us with this". It is a pleasure to read that, I congratulate you on your enviable position, and wish you well. But ....how did they obtain the means to do that? And at whose expense? What is the flip side? Does anyone imagine no-one was discouraged and disempowered? While hugely pro-American (I hope I made myself clear), the future surely lies with a system of justice that delivers precisely that, not legal verdicts that have been secured by whoever can pay the most. And, all the time, people are inventing things, discovering things, making things. That is where wealth comes from. End of sermon.

AAC format. Who developed it? Serious question. I don't know. I thought Apple claimed it. I will check. It is certainly better that MP3. Can also give smaller files. I have checked it out myself. I can post my findings. As with DVD-A, I cannot find a relevant area on the forum. The MP3 threads show no evidence of interest in sound quality, as Gregory would, rightly, predict.

WMA format. Don't know that, sorry. If someone can comment I'd be grateful.

But - and this is the point - iPod will write and read .aiff files (Audio Interchange File Format, I think) - same as on a CD. Please see my point above, to Gregory. I will not type it over again.

Re 04.20 p.m. Some wonderful music there, Ghia! I am in anticipation at your forthcoming posts! In classical, who performed it is usually more interesting than the record label. Naxos mostly has fairly unknown artists, but many are as good as the best. Also, the presentation (booklet etc) can be a bit tacky, but they are getting better. "Kind of Blue" is the classic Miles Davis.

Kegger,

As you see from the above, we agree on audio but not on computers! I use a number of Microsoft products and they seem pretty good. The main reason, however, is that I have no choice - most people do not know what a .rtf file is (non-proprietary; cross-platform), and send it back, asking for .doc (neither of those). And I know MS did not develop any of their stuff (a single example, anybody?). The innovators were screwed. It's that simple. Psion hand-held computers were a particularly ugly case in recent years. Powerpoint - it has entered our language, like "Hoover" and "Aspirin". Anyone else remember Aldus Persuasion? No, thought not....

Sorry if this seems like a rant, folks! I just address what seem to me to be misconceptions, and that is how it comes out.

All,

Q. "How many Microsoft developers does it take to change a light bulb?"

A. "None. Bill Gates just announces that 'darkness' is the new industry standard".
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 243
Registered: Dec-03
john your posts are allways amusing and welcome.

you do know the microsoft chant of mine was a joke?
i figure you did just wanted to make sure!

but seriuosly i am not going to get into another
microsoft debate ever again. the guy's at work,
they kill me.

let me just say this.
personally i realy have no problem with
microsoft.
i feel if someone makes something and
you have enough cash to buy it then allbeit!

and i do not like mac's or their o.s.

i'm sure you can understand why i don't like mac's.

i'm a tinkerer and can't leave anything alone so
my pc's are allways being tore down and messed with.putting in the latest sound , video card or
whatever piece of new hardware or software comes
out."i do not like mac's that doesn't mean that
they are not good just not for me"

and i think ghia feels the same as i when it comes to the portable media.

i can take it for listening on my pc or party
music but if i'm going to sit down to enjoy some
music i want the best quality i can get.

i hate to say it but as far as copy protection
goes i understand why they do it and do not blame
them for doing it.

if you worked in the computer industry and could
see that most people/companies purchase about at
most 15% of the software they use.

their are people and companies that when they are
in need of a piece of software they don't buy it
they copy it.(everything is copyable) "trust me"

or when someone shows someone some new music the
first they say is can i copy that.

i got people busting sacd and dvd-audio wide open.

so when you see this stuff you can understand why
the industry doesn't want digital audio streaming
out of units.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 244
Registered: Dec-03
by the way all the previous post is just the
rambling thoughts of a lunatic KEG.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 918
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Yes, I think I've got to know you well enough here to take "Vive Microsoft" for what it was! But thanks for underlining it.

Some of the flames that burst up in this forum often start with someone not seeing a joke, or a figure of speech, like a deliberate exaggeration. No-one can be blamed, it's just misunderstanding.

If that is the rant of lunatic Keg then I'd better join you in the lunatic asylum, to get some sense out of someone.

I agree with all that. " feel if someone makes something and
you have enough cash to buy it then allbeit! " Right on.

"i'm a tinkerer and can't leave anything alone so
my pc's are allways being tore down and messed with.putting in the latest sound , video card or
whatever piece of new hardware or software comes
out." Yes, agree. You guessed right. I use a Mac. I tinker with Macs, too, mostly to keep old ones going, if possible, replacing cards etc. I take old, written- off ones from work and keep 'em for parts. I've actually fixed a 1988 Sony Trinitron TV by transplanting in the loudspeaker from a 1992 Macintosh. The bit I don't care for about the Mac image is the idea that it works by magic and understands your hope and fears. However, if you believe in freedom and "each to his own" every Microsoft claims should be taken with a big pince of salt. These virues outbreaks were all foreseeable, and the deep-dyed "evil empire" brigade think it was deliberate, just to sell more software. I am not sure I go that far. But MS's solemn announcements on the make me chuckle.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 196
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

Bravo! I knew I could count on you, as to the obscure reference to HAL. And yes. Mr. Clarke knew what he had to do(name wise) to avoid the lawsuit.

P.S. The 540D arrived, haven't had a chance to open the box......soon
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 76
Registered: Apr-04
John A

I prepared a text in response to your post but, ultimately decided to throw it out when I realized it would only prolong this debate about Msft, something I promised I would not do. We will have to agree to disagree.

I will say that I'm disappointed and offended by your implication that humanitarian efforts by individuals within the company are somehow tainted. In fact, it seems I should question my entire existence - at least for the timeframe in which I've collected a paycheck from Msft. Whatever. Let's not make this forum about me, either.

2c,

PCO's Pachelbel Canon is the first "classical" CD I ever got. But, I have no recollection of how it was obtained. Either I bought it used or got it free from the record store I managed years ago. There's a sticker on the back that says "RCA Records - For Demonstration - On Loan".....hmmmm - maybe I should send it back to them. I wouldn't want to add "thief" to my other badge of dishonor, Msft Employee. :-)

Kegger,

Yes, our philosophy seems to be the same in regards to portable music. All my songs are ripped at 320kbps which I find acceptable listening to on the iPod. It is even acceptable with the iPod hooked up to the main stereo for casual listening.

When I was first testing what would be acceptable, I did a 1:1 copy from CD to computer. I have not tested how that sounds coming from the iPod. But, when I played the .aiff file (Elton John - "Tiny Dancer") from the computer through a Slimp3 hooked into my integrated amp, I found the sound to be flatter and colder than playing the original CD on the c541i. The difference was subtle but still discernible.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 920
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

Thanks. Mr Clarke is a genius. Do people know he invented geostationary satellite communication in a Science Fiction novel, and the satellites we all use every day are up there in zone known, for that reason, as "The Clarke Belt"?

It is remarkable that no-one has mentioned "2001. A Space Odyssey". If we had had this forum discussion twenty-thirty years ago, it could well have been top of the list. Watched it with our children about a year ago. They were bored rigid. It has some fantastic music, and some good jokes, but it does go on a bit. The apes now seem hilariously bad. I wonder when it will be available on DVD. Clarke always claims he did not know "HAL" was "IBM" transposed, when he wrote the script.

For modern, busy people, the essentials of "2001" are distilled into One: A Space Odyssey (external link), a one-minute version, using Lego actors. Recommended. More entertaining than "The English Patient", and a lot shorter.

Sorry my reply to you just warmed me up for the rant. It is true, though: the last thing Microsoft wanted was networking of any sort, and especially the internet, and it did its best to stop it. NCSA even gave them a Windows version of Mosaic, free, and they just tried to undermine it. With networking, people could share files and application programs, instead of having to buy them. This is the real basis of the new war about audio formats, in my opinion. Brave of you to join me in the world of DVD-Audio only!

I am very interested to know how you get on with the 540D, and DVD-A.

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 922
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

"I will say that I'm disappointed and offended by your implication that humanitarian efforts by individuals within the company are somehow tainted."

That was not my point, Ghia. And offence was most certainly not my intention, least of all to you. I apologize for having created that impression. I took some care with that post, but not enough, I guess.

I am aware that Bill Gates is now doing some wholly admirable and badly-needed things with his personal wealth. It seems to be a pattern of history. Rockefeller underwent a similar sea change, and did much good in the World, in the end. Yes, maybe we should draw the line at this point. Apart from my causing offence, this thread can only take so much.

All good wishes to you.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 925
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Following your post of May 08, 12.38.

Those speaker photos are great. I especially like the look of that three-way floor-stander in the first. How do they sound....?

Do you know you can post jpg files up to 100 kb on the forum; those would work. Maybe others would like to see

There are some other speaker makers posting under "Speakers".
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 246
Registered: Dec-03
well i don't feel this is the type of forum to
show projects still under way like a diy is.

so i figured i would show some when they r done.
"if i ever get um done"

yah that three way floor stander in the first pic
is going to be an absolutely beutiful speaker all
real hard wood outside 3/4" with 3/4" mdf inside.

and they will have external crossovers and triamped.

i haven't been able to listen to them yet.

but the other ones in pic2 sound awsome they are
a 2 way up top with dual 12's underneath and i am
really liking the sound of that ribbon tweeter.
they are bi amped.and almost completed.longest
part being final crossover design which is done!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 247
Registered: Dec-03
allright hear goes well see if this works.

2 pics one of each speaker just incase anyone was
interested in what john and i were gabbin about.




biamp


triamp
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 248
Registered: Dec-03
allright it worked. well the first pic is ofcourse
the 2-way on top the dual 12's(bi amped)

and the second is the reconstruction project of
a pair of old advents that had nice wood to start
on top and the front.with no interal bracing.
now it's braced up the wazoo and all sides nice wood.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 60
Registered: Apr-04
John A,

2001 - A Space Odyssey is available on DVD. I have the original on VHS and haven't gotten around to buying the DVD, but it sounds like they did a good job with it:

http://207.136.67.23/film/DVDReview/2001.htm

I like the movie a lot, but actually prefer his books. Did you know that Rendevouz with RAMA is to be filmed by David Fincher and is in pre-production? I wonder how well they'll pull that off.

BTW: Did you also order the Messiah DVD-A we talked about? I think someone beat us to it and got the last copy they had stocked...
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 929
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,
Nice photos, thanks!

Adam,
Thanks for the tip-off and link. 2001 was a total cinematic experience when it first came out. Surround sound is a must. So is wide screen; I will maybe try the DVD when we get a projector. What bored the children was a VHS version, on a TV, and it may even have been in mono. Thanks for the link. Some nice screen-shots. The reviewer should try to calm down a bit, the film must have unhinged him. It did that to people. So many critics made complete fools of themselves. If they could write at all about it then they had probably missed the point of the film. (I notice I revert to "film" without thinking, hope I am understood).

Yes, we ordered "Messiah". Think it was Thursday. I thought you said you had already ordered it. I asked my wife (and road manager) about stock and she didn't recall a problem. She also favours Amazon, so it was not that we stole the link from you in order to add insult to injury! The are plenty of other shops. If you cannot find a local one, the HMV shop in London operates a mail order system and seem to carry in stock multiple copies of every disc on the planet.

SHOCK SELL-OUT OF HANDEL ON DVD-AUDIO

Leading supplier baffled by demand

"We just cannot keep up!", said a worried Amazon spokesman. "This intense consumer interest in DVD-Audio has taken us completely by surprise". Breaking off to apologise, to distraught would-be telephone customers, the spokesman, pausing only to relay yet again the telephone number of the Samaritans, told how they were frantically doing everything in their power to re-stock from the distributor, "....but similar reports are coming in from far and wide. We know 'Messiah' has been top of the hit parade since its first performance in Dublin in 1742, but we thought DVD-A was a niche format. Hardly anyone has a player to play DVD-A discs, you know.... We are completely at a loss to explain this rush." The Amazon web server is struggling with internet orders from overseas, even from smaller countries such as Denmark. The spokesman speculated that the demand was from collectors who were just Handel obsessives, and wanted one version on every format, even if they could not hear it. "We have thirty versions on CD, all in stock. Real music like this sounds better in stereo, as you probably know. If you really want a DVD-A disc, for some reason, we may be able get hold of 'Tubular Bells'....but 'Messiah'..." He shook his head. "Are you sure I can't interest you in one of the CDs? "

There, that should do it....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 61
Registered: Apr-04
John,

No no, I'm not claiming you got the last stocked one, but even if you did it would be absolutely fine with me. I did post the link for you to use in the first place :-)

I ordered on Tuesday, but they might have screwed up or something. Anyway I'm not in a hurry.

Hehe, that's hilarious :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 938
Registered: Dec-03
Adam,

Thanks. Seems like someone else beat both of us, then! I have just heard a small chunk of Messiah on the radio by Chicago Symphony Orchestra and Chorus with Sir Georg Solti.

A total anachronism, but still wonderful music, whichever way you look at it, or perform it. The one I would rate highest on CD is The Sixteen on Hyperion, but I will be surprised if that DVD-Audio, also a live performance (always best imho), is not at least as good.

Try "One: A Space Odyssey", I linked it for Rick (see May 08).... It was made in my home town. The actors are all Danish...
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 62
Registered: Apr-04
John,

"Seems like someone else beat both of us, then!"

Yes that's what I thought.

"Try "One: A Space Odyssey", I linked it for Rick (see May 08).... It was made in my home town. The actors are all Danish..."

That was quite an amusing little film.
Yes I noticed the Danish actors. Lego's cool :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 942
Registered: Dec-03
Agreed, Adam! Thanks!
 

New member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 4
Registered: Apr-04
This is a massage that I already sent to the thread "Twilight of CD " No 2 but according to John A recommendation I redirect it to this original thread.

Thanks for Ghia that directed me to the 'Twilight of CD' thread with Mahler discussion.

I also think that Mahler is a wonderful post romantic composer. Mahler was the first composer that attracted me years ago after listening to the classical composers like Beethoven, Schuman and Hayden. There was some magic and mysterious in his symphonies. I like most the symphonies No 4 No 3 No 2 and No1 in this order more or less.
For years Mahler remained my favorite representative for the 20th century classical music composer. During the years I added few Bruckner symphonies.
Years have passed and I found some other 20'th century composers like Rachmaninoff Shostakovich and Prokofiev to be more specific:
Shostakovich: symphonies No 5, No 7 "Leningrad", No 8 and No 13 "Babi Yar" (I agree with Jan Vinge about the conflict of Shostakovich with the regime and its influence on his music)
Rachmaninoff: Piano concerts, Preludes-Etudes and Vespers
Prokofiev: Piano works, "Angle of fire" and "War and peace" operas.

About Wagner:
A friend of mine, an opera addicted claims that it is impossible to listen to Wagner operas music without watching the scene. I do not agree. I do listen to Wagner operas highlights but you come to appreciate Wagner only by watching his long and prolong operas.
I belong to a DVD opera watching club where we gather every two weeks to watch some opera and Wagner is very interesting operas composer in our group schedule
Wagner himself is a controversial personality here in Israel, and many people think that his works should not be played in public

How all this is connected to "The twilight of CD '?

We are with the stereo mode for more than 50 years now. The stereo proved to be good and reliable. I think that a 60th system composed from Quad tube amplifier, Thorens turntable and Quad or KEF speakers is equal or even better than many modern stereo Hi-End systems.
Is it time to abandon the stereo and switch to something new like multi channels audio with three four or five speakers around us?
At our opera club meeting we listen to a stereo video system that composed from good quality DVD player, a mediocre projector connected to good stereo systems with very good results.
We DO NOT operate the Dolby 5.1 surround or DTS, anyhow many operas on DVD do not have it
I would like to have the forum member experience with classical music on DVD-A or SACD before changing/adding my stereo and CD's to these formats.




 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 963
Registered: Dec-03
Asimo,

I will re-post my reply, too (edited slightly with and with better spelling...). I should maybe explain to others that the link at the top of this page "Archive through May 01" made it look to you, and me, as if this thread was closed.

______
"would like to have the forum member experience with classical music DVD-A or SACD before changing my stereo".

You don't have to change it. Just add to it! See the link "Teaching an old dog new tricks". I have just discovered DVD-Audio, and it is well worth it. And especially with those sort of musical preferences. Also opera, I should think, must surely benefit from surround treatment on DVD-V. I have never got into opera. Maybe one day.

You are completely correct about 40-year old stereo gear, in my opinion. My position on DVD-Audio is that it is the first really new and useful development, for music, since the introduction of stereo.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 77
Registered: Apr-04
Wow, that new Loretta Lynn record is a revelation! If you have an appreciation for Americana, country, folk, bluegrass, Johnny Cash or the White Stripes, you'll like this. This might be my fave record of 2004.

There's a song on the record though that she seems to have lifted the "vocal phrasing" (melody? sorry, i don't know the correct musical terminology) from Johnny Cash's version of "Wanted Man". Try it. Listen to Loretta's song "This Old House" and follow it with "Wanted Man". When I heard Loretta's song, I kept hearing another one in the back of my head....it took me about 10 minutes to figure it out. Feel free to correct me on my terminology. And, if I'm wrong about the phrasing, correct me on that too.

Anyway....Loretta Lynn, "Van Lear Rose"...highly recommended.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 974
Registered: Dec-03
Great to read, Ghia.

There have been some famous examples of ripped-off music, right throughout history. Years ago, George Harrison's "My Sweet Lord", a No. 1 hit from the late 60s, was proved to be "He's so fine", performed, in the early 60s, and by, I think, the Shirelles. Really, only the words had changed. It even stood up in court, and Harrison had to pay compensation. He said he didn't know, until someone pointed it out to him. I am sure he was telling the truth.

Very brief glossary. "Melody" also know as "the tune" (you can whistle it) is one sequence of notes, and their duration relative to each other. "Harmony" is the pattern formed by notes sounding at the same time; it can be formed of two or more melodies; or by one melody superimposed on itself, but starting at a different time (like a "round" such as "Three Blind Mice"). If two things have the same melody and harmony, (as "My Sweet Lord" and "He's so fine") then they are the same music.

"Phrasing" is how the notes in melody are grouped together, and is an example of interpretation. It is importart, but difference phrasings do not make it different music. So much of the differnent interpretations we hear and enjoy are down to difference in phrasing.

Actually, I can remember "this old house" from earlier versions, and, now you mention it, it is indeed much like "Wanted Man". Never notices that before, and I've know "Wanted Man for a long time. Thanks! So maybe Johnny Cash was doing the same as George Harrison; just putting his own words to music he already knew.

If you can sing one while the other is playing; everything sounds OK; and the tune is even the same; then that probably clinches it, for most practical purposes, I think: they are the same music.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 182
Registered: Feb-04
Almost all popular music is derivative. In the case of country and rock, you can look to the blues for their origin. On "Van Lear Rose" there are a few songs that remind me of Johnny Cash, but I'm fairly sure Cash was influenced by older country blues musicians as well. A great illustration of the relationship between the blues, country and rock is found in "The Last Waltz." The concert has practitioners of each genre and The Band basically assimilated these genres in their music. There's also the wonderful interview with Levon Helm in which he explains the role of Nashville as a melting pot of all these American musical traditions.

What's remarkable about "Van Lear Rose" is how raw and powerful it all is. It's as if Jack White took Loretta Lynn back to the primal origins of country blues. Plus I get a kick out of Loretta singing about how she shot her man down. The gender switch is kinda refreshing. Good stuff.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 79
Registered: Apr-04
John A.

Thanks for the lesson. I really need to get in a music class! I tried last summer but it got canceled due to low enrollment.

I didn't realize "This Old House" was an old song. "Wanted Man" was written in 1969 by Bob Dylan and performed in 1970 by Cash. I don't know if Dylan ever recorded or whether his phrasing is similar to Cash's.

Two Cents:

Have you ever heard Loretta's "Fist City"? I don't think Loretta has ever backed down from a good fight. :-) If you try to take her man, she will beat the snot out of at least one of you.
 

Silver Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 998
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Thanks. I didn't know Dylan wrote "Wanted Man". He was (is?) a real Magpie for other people's music. But, just like many great composers (Bach and Handel were kleptomaniacs, in comparison), Dylan did great things with what he took, and also had the talent to make entirely new things of his own.

I remember Cash and Dylan on "Nashville Skyline". That was a treat. I guess can can easily hold of that, today.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 68
Registered: Apr-04
John,

I just got a dispatch confirmation on the Messiah DVD-A, so it seems the stated waiting time was much exaggerated :-)

I hope I'll get the replacement DVD-2900 soon, or I'll have to play it in AC3 :/
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1009
Registered: Dec-03
Adam,

You are a step ahead of us. Don't even think of listening to it all at once. The end of each part (there are three) is a good place to stop, or, at least, take a break.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 69
Registered: Apr-04
John,

Thanks for the advice. I've thought about not listening to it, until I can hear it in DVD-A, so as not to "taint" the first impression. But I don't know if that's silly.

I hope you'll get your copy soon too :-)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1013
Registered: Dec-03
Adam,

I also don't know whether that's silly, but it is exactly what I would choose to do: wait. Excellent sound makes all the difference. And you've lived without Handel for some time, already. What's another week or so? I would take the dead time to read all the blurb. It always helps. ("Do as I say; not as I do!").
 

j. vigne
Unregistered guest
Ghia -If I might suggest a good read that might be avialable at the library or a used book store. Aaron Copeland wrote a fairly small book that I beieve had a title of "How to Listen to Music". It was the first book I read about how to listen and it was very simply laid out. It has been years since I read it and I've forgotten much of its content I'm certain. It's one of those books I'll see on my bookshelf as I'm dusting and think I really need to pull that out and go at it again. But I never do. Give it a try, I think you might like the experience.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 83
Registered: Apr-04
Jan,

Thank you for the suggestion. Amazon has one called "What to Listen for in Music" - Does that sound right? I think I'll stop by the book store on the way home to see if it is in stock.
 

j, vigne
Unregistered guest
I believe that's it.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1060
Registered: Dec-03
Adam,

Amazon says delivery expected between June 10 and 30. We should have gone elsewhere. Aix has not even confirmed dispatch. Their 28 days are nearly up.

Ghia and Jan. Copland wrote some great stuff, musically, too. Maybe it would be good to get some, to go with the book.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 84
Registered: Apr-04
John and Jan

I picked up the book and have started reading it. I believe this will be a valuable resource. There are musical recommendations for each chapter. Ironically, in the foreword written by Alan Rich, he mentioned that the only shortcoming of the book is there's no mention of "What to Listen for in Copland's Music." :-) It seems Copland may have been a pretty humble gentleman.

Once the music budget is replenished, I'll pick up some Copland works.

On the equipment side, my order shipped from Kief's on Friday. It is scheduled to be delivered on Wednesday.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1089
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Copland probably wanted his book to be taken seriously, not discounted as self-promotion. He certainly wrote some great music. Like all the others, from his place and time. And he had things to say; some overtly political. "Appalachian Spring" and "Fanfare for the the Common Man" are deservedly well known. Most people will surely recognise the tunes, from movies, advertisements, etc., even if they didn't know where they came from. For me, Copland is one of the distinctive musical voices of America.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1243
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Going back to those speaker photos on May 08; did you ever consider looking at the BBC LS3/5a design? It looks to me like you would be talking the same language as those original BBC audio engineers; two-driver sealed box; cross-bracing; quality workmanship. I made a comment to Jan V. on "Plunging into multichannel"; he has some made by Rodgers. Different makers had a go at that design. It is not easy for mass production, I think, and that maybe made the price uncompetitive.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 331
Registered: Dec-03
i've never heard of them but i will see what i
can find on them.

sounds interesting though!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger - Just put LS3/5a into a search engine, you'll get several choices of sites that are informative. The cabinet design is very interesting on the speaker and the justification for why they did it just so. You can pick up new old stock cabinets and drivers on line. Very tight tolerances and pair matching were a key to the LS3/5a's performance. The crossover is very complicated as it took into account the very small inaccuracies of the driver's and resonances within the system. The original system was designed to be 15/16 Ohms, a fairly resistive load but difficult for many amps due to the complexity of the crossover. Later designs were modified to take into account the slight deviancies that had occurred in the drivers over about fifteen years of production. The crossover was eventually revised, also, to an eight Ohm design and bi-wiring became an option. They were intended for mobile location use, often in the BBC vans, and therefore they work best close to a wall, on a very good stand and at a fairly close distance to the listener. They are not speakers that will fill a large space. Bass begins a 12dB roll off at about 70 Hz, and, like a good electrostatic, they are almost impossible to pair with a subwoofer that doesn't say, "Hey, I put a subwoofer in my system.". A little bump at about 100Hz gives the impression of deeper bass than is really there. The top is slightly rolled at about 17kHz due to the noise that was present in the electronics (mostly non Dolby open reels) of the early 70's. But they are, like the Quad's, considered to be an unsurpassed speaker for midrange accuracy and really are responsible for the minimonitor designs that followed. Even with the cabinet design that was done in the 70's before computers got into the design process, they are a true minimonitor classic that, with very good gear in front of them just disappear to leave a big, deep and wide soundstage that has tremendous resolving power. And they satisfy the Brittish requirement of making your toe tap to the music. They are, by today's standards, a little slight of the best for detail resolution but their inherent musicallity makes them a classic design that still holds its own with speakers that are state of the art. Mostly, if you catch what they do, which is not for everyone (they are an acquired taste rather like white truffles, if you like them there is nothing else that compares and if you don't you can't understand all the fuss), you will be hard pressed to find a replacement. Mostly they just get out of the way of the music. For anyone interested in speaker design they would be a must listen to in my opinion. I sold them for over fifteen years and, from my information, they were eventually phased out of the U.S. market due to high import fees and the value of the dollar to the pound in the early to mid 90's. The first pair I sold in 1976 went for about $600 and they got up to about $1650 by the time they left the U.S. market. By that time there were plenty of speakers that were very good and did some things better than the LS3/5a's for less money. The thing is, few if any of those speakers had or have the reputation of the little BBC speaker. As you can probably guess, I think they are very special and like my Mac tube amps I can't imaging parting with them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 340
Registered: Dec-03
yah i just did some research and from what i can
gather they have quite a following.

but also from what i have seen i do not think
they are a candidate for a diy project.

and the reason why i say that is 3 fold.

1 the cabinet needs to kept to very strict rules.
2 the crossover is the same as the cabinets and
very complex."plus difficult to source"
3 the drivers are more than likely very difficult
to source.

all of these peramiters imho need to be strictly
adhered to for this speaker to perform correctly.

now if you can buy cabinets and crossovers made
with the older type parts they used back then
along with drivers you could probably do a nice
job.(but then it wouldn't really be a diy project)

but having said that i do find the little speaker
very very interesting and i'll bet they sound beautiful.

i just think the cabinet and crossover have to be
exact for the speaker to sound right.as they used
the natural acoustics of the cabinet incorporated
in the design of the sound of the speaker with
the help of the crossover.

looks like a very difficult speaker to get the
sound just right as the cabinets resonance has as
much to do with how they sound as the drivers and crossovers.

many manufacturers have givin up this way of doing
it because it is so hard to keep the tolerences.

i'm sure most of you guy's allready new this but
i felt like writing it anyway.cool speaker though!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1245
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, I am not a cabinet maker and it is not for me to say, but if you could make a Kegger LS3/5a (looking at your photos, I think you could) then the hi-end speaker world will beat a path to your door!

I would say four LS3/5a speakers would be the way to go for surround sound, at least for normal rooms, coming back to the general issue. Spendor has a current speaker with simlar specs, and that hangs flush on the wall, intended to be a surround. If we ever get Jan over to this crazy idea of surround, then those might be the best match for his Rodgers LS3/5a.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 342
Registered: Dec-03
john i'm not saying i couldn't make one.

but the difference between than cabinet and most
it that usually when you make a cabinet the goal
is to make it as solid and non resonant as you can.

but that cabinet has a certain acoustic sound to it.
that the manufacturer factors in and i think that
would be very difficult to copy correctly.and get
the proper resonence.

jan probably knows more than us maybe we need to
hear what he says.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1246
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, you know more than I do, but my guess is there is no magic at all in that cabinet - as far as I can see, the BBC published what to make it from, and how. It is the design, construction and materials that take care of its acoustic properties. The maker does not need to worry about issues like that, though of course any good maker will be interested in the how and why.

I think the reason it all happened like that is that the old BBC was funded entirely by licence fees to provide UK national public broadcasting. They had good R&D (a bit like Bell Labs in US) with real freedom to explore, and were often right at the edge of new technology. For example they were broadcasting, experimentally, in stereo when no-one had stereo receivers of any kind: they did it by broadcasting one channel on TV and the other on the radio!

Now, it was forbidden for the BBC to make and sell stuff, under the terms of its charter, so they just published the specs they wanted for speakers for their own use, and invited makers to tender. A number of them had a go, Spendor, Harberth, Rodgers, others, and what those makers found was that they had made a speaker that was the tops for music, too, so they made and sold them to consumers.

But you are correct, Jan has Rodgers LS3/5a and I am sure he knows tons more than I do.

BTW I made a short comment to Jan on "Plunging in" I will repeat it here:-

June HiF news has review of five £1000, two-driver, top-notch speakers. The question addressed is "which one mostly closely approaches the reference standard?" Meaning LS3/5a. In their case, from Rodgers. The verdict is they are all excellent, but none comes close to the reference. Apparently there IS a current production prorotype LS3/5a, but it has to use recycled or "old stock" components, unless and until KEF can be persuaded to start making the drivers and crossover again.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Maybe it's not addressed anymore in the web sites or requires a lot of searching, but I remember an interview with the men primarily responsible for the design of the LS3/5a for the BBC. Don't remember off hand who all was involved in the discussion (John A. - Was it Peter Cooke and James Roberts that worked for the BBC as designers?) but it was in HiFi News or Grammaphone back in the early 80's when cabinet bracing was becoming the rage to eliminate resonance that, as Kegger said, are very hard to control.
The interviewer, Ken Kessler I believe, was asking about the cabinet construction of the 3/5a since it had virtually no bracing (internally the cabinet is stuffed with bithuminous felt to damp reflections) and it was becoming the accepted norm in speakers to put a stiffener in as many locations as possible. The designers explained, as only a BBC engineer could, the 3/5a is made of solid birch (something that once again was thought to be forbidden since the introduction of plywood and later MDF) since the BBC had run ext(p)ensive tests ( and John A. can attest to the budget the BBC had for testing at that time) and found it to be the most resistant to vibration of any material (in the 70's) short of concrete (in the dimensions that were required for the 3/5a) The cabinet construction would make Norm Abrams envious over its joinery. You have to understand all this was done to serve Her Majesty with the best materials and workmanship possible (and that's how they put it, it was meant to showcase England to the world over the international channels of the BBC, and, they had learned their lessons about audio's importance during the second World War). The speaker is quite heavy for its external dimensions and being a minimonitor it has a tremendous stiffness to the walls of the cabinet. With a 4" woofer there wasn't a lot of resonance to damp.
What was more remarkable was the front of the cabinet that was extended in front of the drivers so cabinet reflections were a source of unwanted reflections. (This is a speaker reknowned for its ability to disappear and give pin point images and soundstaging.) These were dealt with in the X-over and by placing a small screen in front of the tweeter. Almost all this was done by ear and understanding the workings of soundwaves. It is a speaker that was designed without a computer to measure or predict any results and yet it is, to many, still a reference to measure others against The story goes that Henry Kloss, who John A. and I have discussed, couldn't get the X-over in the original Advent loudspeaker to satisfy him till he took dozens of parts home and sat down with a few botles of wine and over the weekend created what was to be the most successful speaker in America between '68 and '75. Don't know if it's true but it makes a good story and sounds like Henry Kloss. I'm not sure college degrees are necessary for good speakers.
But the components of the LS3/5a are very tightly controlled and if you deviate from center on this speaker you no longer have a 3/5a, though there have been several speakers that have jumped off from the 3/5a to be fairly successful. The most
well known of that group was the JR149 which took the same drivers and put them in a cylindrical metal enclosure. Something else you might want to investigate, Kegger.
The biggest problem with the LS3/5a's, other than being rather revealing about the equipment in front of them, is the are a brick to drive, 84 dB at 1 watt. They will suck many amplifiers dry before you get much sound and with a 4" woofer they can bottom out on big bass. Certainly not what you would want to be doing the nuclear catastrophies that populate the movies today unless you were very certain of your bass management control.
This lack of efficiency is partly why KEF said they don't want to produce the old drivers any longer. They have moved forward in technology and so should everyone else. BOO!!! Some of us like it here in our nice comfortable mud that we are stuck in.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 346
Registered: Dec-03
so jan would you suggest not trying to build one
of these.

with your experience/readings would it be safe to say
that it would be difficult to get it to sound right.

or am i just being scared!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 232
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

If memory serves me correctly, wasn't Henry Kloss involved with KLH before he ventured in to ADVENT? I remember replacing a pair of KLH 32's for the large Advent when they came out. Man, am I going back a lot of years!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1252
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say I knew a bit about the LS3/5a legend, but Jan's post goes far beyond what I recall, and I am sure it is all spot on. I can only confirm that Ken Kessler still writes for HiFi News, so it should be possible to track that article down in a library somewhere. I also see that my KEF Corelli speakers are made much like that, perhaps they are close to KEF's own LS3/5a. The crossover should not be a problem, and competant electonics amateur ought to be able to make one. The drivers are a different question. Let's all write to KEF. They still make drivers for a lot of other speaker manufacturers; perhaps they just need to know there is a demand.

Re efficiency. I cannot understand why people want 90 dB plus. I calculate my Corellis are 83 dB. I remember the recommended amplifier output was 25 - 50 W. Probably part of the problem was those guys assumed the owner would know that that was the actual power delivered, not the inflated claims of amp manufacturers. They have played loud as I could ever wish from amps rated for 8 Ohms at 2 x 40 W, 2 x 100 W, and now (my NAD AV receiver) 2 x 90 W (stereo mode). The accidental insults I have given other speakers over the years (blowing tweeters etc) the Corellis just shrugged off with "all in a day's work". I've also had then bouncing round in the back of a car on a tight bend with no damage, even nothing visible to the wood veneer.

Jan, the Spendor "surround" I mentioned is the SR5
http://www.spendoraudio.com/SR5new.htm

I am not trying to influence you on the whole question of surround (honestly!), but it strikes me that those are the sort of things you would try if you wanted to give it a chance.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1253
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, see my post before last. Get the materials and build right, and you don't have to tune it acoustically. How much I agree with jan that degree qualifictions get in the way. many of those BBC developers left school at 15. there were far more important thing to do in those days. And they learned their trade where is mattered.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 347
Registered: Dec-03
ok john but have you seen that crossover "go to
the page jan sent" that thing has as many parts
in it as three of todays speakers.

at first i didn't know if the crossover was more
complex or if the cabinet made that much of a difference.

but i'm still interested in jan's oppinion though!

maybe he will tell me not to build it and then i
can quit thinking about it! lol i don't need more
projects.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1255
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

I don't see a link from jan, but put "LS3/5a" into Google and there is a wealth of information out there.

One site is
http://home.freeuk.net/pwhatton/ls35a.html

with links to DIY sources etc. The crossover described on that page looks OK to me, could be based on a simple printed circuit board. Also, it seems one can just buy one, from somthing called "cicable".

The HiFi News articles are good. May the one Jan mentioned is on of those on
http://home.freeuk.net/pwhatton/lslinks.html

Jan is the expert!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 348
Registered: Dec-03
hear is the site http://www.ls35a.com/ then go to
"whats inside"

you have to build the 11 ohm version because their
is no way you will get transformers correct for
the 15.

anyways look at the crossover design for the 11ohm version.

and again i'm not saying you couldn't build one.

i just think another project where the tolerences
aren't so strict and the parts are newer/readally
available would be a wiser choice.than trying to
recreate a small gem.not to mention easier.

but i could be wrong it my be a very rewarding
project. in terms of how well the speaker sounds.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1258
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Look like my first link and yours are the same; one is a mirror of the other.

How do they sound? Ask Jan. I think he has already said it.

I try not to buy into cults, always wary of hype. But Jan knows his audio stuff on this forum if anyone does. And my experience of those HiFi News guys is they are as hard-boiled and cynical as you can get. Then you read their reviews if the LS3/5a and you wonder if they have flipped. One thing, no-one can possibly bribe them to say that; these things are not even in current production. And they have access to all the best gear in the world for comparison.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Rick - Yes, Henry Kloss started out as a student of Edgar Vilchur at MIT in Boston (Cambridge), Mass., in the early 50's. In 1954-55 both men left the academic field to create Acoustic Research. This was the first speaker company that use an acoustic suspension cabinet/woofer loading technique. The research had been done by Vilchur and his students at MIT to prove the concept of two benefits to the idea of enclosing a driver's back wave with the cabinet itself as opposed to the common method of relaxing the pressure on a woofer by allowing its back wave pressure to exit the box through a port, a slot (reflex design) or horn (folded horn most commonly as in the Klipschorn and its early decendants). The basic concept came from the early practice that is referred to as infinite baffle. This is an idea that says the back wave of the woofer can be measured to determine its largest (sine) wavelength by determinig the low frequency cut off of the driver or the desired cut off. My memory doesn't serve me well enough to remember the specifics of things I haven't neded to use in twenty years but my recollection is a 32Hz signal will produce a wavelength that is about 30' peak to peak in its sinewave. If that's the cut of frequency you desire you must, then, place the woofer on a surface that will be larger in all directions than its largest sine which in this case would be more than 30'. Makes for a realy big box in the center, eh, John A.? The problem with this solution is what does wrap around is then in phase with the front signal but slightly delayed in time. Yet another of those time is not phase things. This was a minimal problem in the early days of audio where just to get 32Hz out of a speaker would be a marvel. But to solve some of the problem (mainly the big box part) the commonly accepted way to mount a speaker was in a wall that would not allow the bass to wrap around. So woofers were installed in floors, ceilings and between rooms were the physical size of the "box" would be larger than the sine of the driver. Later it became convenient to place woofers in unused fireplaces and in closets where the back wave was damped and therefore slowed by the contents of the enclosure, the problem here was leaking air that couldn't be controlled.
Vilchur and Kloss took this to the extreme and theorized that by sealing the box completely you could achieve the same affect in a package size that was reasonable enough to be placed in a common room. The acoustic suspension design solved this and gave the benefit of the air being compressed inside the box becoming the woofer spring mechanism and thus decreasing the cost of production while making a more reliable product from sample to sample. The enclosure also eliminated the peak in impedance that is common to all ported designs and gave a more gradual roll off to the woofer's response beneath its own resonance (-6 dB vs. -12 dB)and everything the listener heard was in phase. So in many ways this was a true breakthrough in technology that should have been a smash except for one thing. Ported designs gave much higher efficiency than a sealed box. The mid 50's were still days of tube amps that were considered huge at 15 watts. Amazingly, two things came together in synchronicity that made Kloss and Vilchur rich men and (if they had done nothing else) sealed their place in audio history. The first was the introduction of stereo and the need for two (smaller) cabinets in the room and in 1957 Texas instruments brought forth the transistor. The two new technologies fed the acoustic suspension speaker with as many as 35 watts and the ability to buy two speaker boxes that were easier to place in a room than the one big Klipschorn type that had dominated for the past thirty years. Kloss and Vilchur worked together for a few years turning out products that are conisdered classics today.
Then Kloss left in '57 to start KLH which gave him more freedom to design what he wanted. The KHL 6 was his design as were the 5, 17 and 32. He added the KLH table radio and the KLH compact record player with flip out speakers. While Vilchur created the AR turntable (a design that Linn followed with far greater marketing) Kloss topped his old boss with the KHL 9 electrostatic. In '66 Kloss left to do Advent because he wanted to create large screen televisions and needed the capital and freedom to experiment. I watched the 1976 Olympics on a Kloss Nova Beam projection TV with a 72" screen (cost $5000 and two days in home set up, tweaked once a year). Two years later I was selling a Sony 26" cabinet that was the new breakthrough in tube technology. (By the way, that 26" Sony, even though it had a nice real walnut cabinet, sold for $2600 in 1976 dollars. As I have said, I paid less than $3000 for a new Chevelle SS in 1972.) Kloss left Advent in '76, produced Kloss TV's, did consulting work for Boston Acoustics and a few other firms around the Cambridge area, later formed Cambridge Audio when it sold direct to the public and his last company was Tivoli which makes the little FM table radios that are a throw back to his designs for KHL and Advent. When he was president of Advent he was the first to put Dolby B noise reduction in a cassette deck (first a Wollensak and then the Advent 201 used a transport made by a black box company called Nakamichi, he made a Dolby A outboard box for open reel tape decks, the Advent 400 table radio, the Advent reciever (a whopping fifteen watts with a swing of up to forty [NAD stuff?] that had a phono section designed by Tomlison Holman [THX = Tomlison Holman Experiment] and an early bucket brigade type digital delay to add surround sound to his big TV. He was one of the first greats that I came in contact with in audio. He had an ego that convinced him his ideas were right until he found something that indicated he might be wrong. My favorite quote from Henry Kloss goes something along the lines of, "It isn't research if you already know the answer". That is logic that should be repeated everyday by every scientist and particularly those folks in Washington. He felt anybody could turn out a good product if price were no object but the real challenge was to create on the tightest budget. He and Vilchur dedicated their lives to bringing music into everyone's home.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1271
Registered: Dec-03
Amazing, Jan. Many thanks. I particularly cherish that final quote from Henry Kloss. It is so simple and yet so little understood. I wonder how Kloss would have coped with the modern demand for pre-determined "deliverables", "outcomes", and "milestones".
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 328
Registered: Feb-04
Jan, when does "The History Of Audio" by J. Vigne hit the bookshelves?

Thank you. Another great educational. What about the future? Are the best speaker designs behind us or do you think there are new technologies awaiting for the next real revolution in audio?

An exerpt from a speaker review by Greg Borrowman, the editor of Australian HI-FI magazine: "The shape of a loudspeaker cabinet also has a considerable influence on the way it sounds, but this has only been known since 1951, following research by Harry Olsen. He proved a sphere is the best shape for a loudspeaker (the Keff Egg John?) and a cube the worst. Olsen found that the familar rectangular shape of most modern loudspeaker cabinets is far from ideal. However, because they're easiest to build, store,stack and ship, almost all commercial speakers are made that way.

World famous speaker reseacher Floyd E Toole, formerly with Canada's National Research Council joined JBL and changed the shape of it's cabinets in the premium models. The Xti series (Danish made with French drivers) are tapered hexagons, a shape that's very close to that of a bevelled rectangle which performed well in Olsen's tests."

Borrowman reviews the XTi-60's in the article and states: "Whether it's the cabinet shape, the drivers, or a combination of both, they sound wonderful, particularly across the midrange and treble where the tonal accuracy is outstanding"

Well, while I have read less favorable reports from the "Brits" about other models (mainly the smaller ones) in the same range, I can certainly attest to his comments about the XTi-60's, but I'm no expert. See:http://international.jbl.com/home/products/product_detail.asp?ProdId=XTI60/230&S erId=XTI&language=ENGLISH

Omitting the blurb on the drivers, the rest states: "The tapered hexagonal shape is not without its problems. It's not as stable as a rectangle cabinet of the same width . . . Also the curves inside the cabinet can give rise to 'organ pipe' resonances and standing waves, which is addressed by sectioning off the internal space and using a large quantitiy of sound absorbing foam."

Certainly no revolution, but while there people out there with ideas, who knows what is around the corner?

Kegger - maybe you could be the next Henry Kloss!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 235
Registered: Dec-03
Jan, Thank you for the detailed trip down memory lane. Henry Kloss was certainly a giant in A/V research and design. We all owe him much thanks.
I remember using the large Advents until the time when the Ohm's and Ess lines came along. The Ohms were too pricey for me at that time so I went with the ESS AMT-3's. Do you remember the Heil air motion transformer? I drove those speakers with a Crown amp and pre-amp. I had an AR belt dive turntable, and a SONY 10" open reel tape deck. That was my first "high end" system. Like I said Jan, that's a lot of years ago.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 350
Registered: Dec-03
mr. rantz appreciate your expactations/faith in
my abalities.

but i would have to stumble/fall/accidently come
up with something as great as mr kloss "whom i've
known about and admired for years".

having said that i am actually trying to improve
on one of his designs. "advent heritage"

but as he has said and i whole heartedly agree on
is that he had to build to a budget and stay with
certain guide lines and i do not.so it should be
easier for me."in theory"

it is much more difficult to make a great speaker
and have to adhere.anyone can build a great pair
of speakers with no budget or restraints.

and that's his claim to fame great speakers with
tight restraints/budgets.

well at least trying to improve on one of his designs
gives you a good start that you know he had to cut
corners.thats the trick trying to find those corners!
and remove them!

but i do have a couple unconventional designs i am working on.
well see how they go.

man once you dive into this speaker building thing.
you soon find out their is quite a bit of knowlage
that goes into building great speakers.you can
learn something new each day.

and you have to be very careful with preconcieved
notions.don't trust that something is allways the
way it is.you may find what you believed in the
past is no longer true.but for some people that's
a difficult thing to do. "question yourself"

i've got a long way to go before i fully understand
what i am doing,but i am very persistent and dive
heavely into whatever i do.so i will get it. with
good electronic skills and handywork it can be done.

i just finished my final version of the crossover
for my speakers,"about 30 revesions later" started
with a second order and ended up fourth order.
3rd tweeter and 4th woofer.
but hey it sounds awsome."now i just have to finish
the second one"lol

it's people like kloss that drove me to building
speakers in the first place.taking something and
getting the most out of it.

 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 329
Registered: Feb-04
"but hey it sounds awsome"

Kegger - I bet it does. Honestly, people like you are inspiring. Your dogged determination will no doubt pay off. Even if it is for your ears only! Hey, why not try a couple of genuine "cooper" made oak barrels for cabinets - I'll bet no one has tried that?

Kidding - but, maybe not!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 236
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

When your speaker design goes public, put in my order for a pair. I would be honored to use your speakers. Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 351
Registered: Dec-03
yo rick i'll put yu on the list.

rants that would be cool "keg barrel speakers"

the way i look at things is if someone else can
do it, why can't I?
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 330
Registered: Feb-04
KEGGER BARRELS - Tap into the future of liquid smooth sound resonating in the bygone years.

Looking for a marketing partner! LOL!

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 352
Registered: Dec-03
i like it!

and the company would be "K.&.G. LTD."
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Rick - Yes, my first experience with ESS were a few black box models they made for Pacific Stereo as house brand speakers. They had the air motion driver but some cheap low and mid drivers so they could be sold at tremendous mark up. I didn't think much of the line I had read so much about. I'll never forget how the ads tried to explain how the driver "pushed" the air forward. I worked with a guy a few years later who had a pair of ESS that he was really proud of and when I went over to listen I was quite surprised with the difference I heard between what I was used to from ESS and his pair. He took the grills off and to my surprise they had an air motion driver as a super tweeter and KEF tweeter, mid and woofer, the 6X9 oval woofer (B139, I believe). They were quite impressive; he drove them with an original Yamaha receiver and a Thorens table.
Kegger - To answer your question about DIY LS3/5a's, I don't have a good answer. I gather you like to take an original design and then see what you can create on your own. I don't think that would be a good approach to the 3/5a. It is what it is. It has existed for thirty years now with very little that has changed in its design. It was updated simply because KEF had wandered off spec over time with the acccuracy of the driver (mainly the woofer). And when it was updated the changes were so small that unless you had them side by side you wouldn't know the difference. They measure differently and that was enough for the BBC.
The site you have in your post is the one that will give you the most information about the speaker without delving into the white papers from the Beeb. As you can see, after thirty years there haven't been many things that even computers have been able to improve upon. The x-over is the biggest change and that was more a matter of better quality components than what the BBC designers had available at the time they designed the speaker. As each component changed affects those that follow down the line they were more or less locked into their choices for the production of the speaker. I've not heard any of the revisions that are listed on that site such as the Cicable X-overs so I can't tell you what I think of the differences they might make. But, you're right in going "Oh, Wow!" when you look at the complexity of the circuit. The designers demanded the very tight tolerances from KEF for the drivers and then made compensations in the X-over for the small deviations that KEF couldn't work out. That was why low quality amps didn't like the 3/5a any more than it liked them.
I went back and looked through that site again since I hadn't read it in quite a while. I think you might find your answer to whether you want to attempt a pair by reading the shootout that is included. It covers most of the variations on the theme and should prove an interesting read if nothing else. I would guess that for your purposes you might get more from the article about the spin offs from the 3/5a. There have beeen quite a few that readily admit they are trying to achieve the LS3/5a sound without being a LS3/5a. I have sold and heard many of these designs and none did what the original could achieve. The closest was probably the JR149 which used the cylindrical aluminum enclosure, as far as I know the first of its kind in mass production(?) speakers. The litle KEF's and the Linn's, though very good in their own right, never had the magic of the original. Some of the reviews that are included in that site will also give some good information on the thought process that went into designing the speaker. For what I think you are trying to do, I bet you would find it more satisfactory to take off from these thoughts rather than just make a copy of something that has already been done. If you don't make a 3/5a exactly, you don't get what a 3/5a has to offer.
Looking at the site I realize I gave the wrong information in an earlier post about the cabinet material. It was the beech that the designers praised for its "deadness" and the birch for its stiffness and resistance to flexing. But it had a lot to do with the dimensions of the box they were going to use and if I remember correctly here they made the point that as dimensions got much larger the beech/birch combination didn't offer the benefits it did in the smaller cabinet of the 3/5a.
The 3/5a is an acquired taste. The speaker never gained the wide appeal here in the States that it had in England. Probably there were several reasons for this. First would be the cost. The speaker is rather heavy for its size and that drove the cost up in the States compared to home grown speakers of the day. Then there is the difference in room size between what most Americans live in vs. the average size of a room in an older home in England. The 3/5a was designed for use in a van or small truck so it didn't fill big spaces the way an Advent or JBL could. And then the fierce loyalty of the Brittish press to anything from England. They could get somewhat feverish about their own products. Sometimes they were just over the top and sometimes (the 3/5a, all things Quad and the big B&W's and KEF monitors) they were/are justified. I would definitely suggest anyone who thinks they might like a pair of 3/5a's should find a pair to listen to before they invest too much money, they might not be your cup o' tea, mate.
Kegger, have you ever done an all out mini monitor?
MyRantz - The cabinet that is used so much is one of the worst choices for its function as far as sound is concerned. What it is great for is cost. The worst cabinet would be a square just as a room with similar dimensions sets up all the wrong resonances. So it became accepted that a rectangle would do as it was so easy to put together from a single sheet of material. (One of the many worthless trivia pieces I learned over the years was that Paul Klpisch came up with the dimension for the Cornwall because it utilized every last inch of a 4'X8' sheet of plywood. Absolutely minimal waste.) The JR149's were the first I know of to use the cylinder, Spica used the wedge, Wilson has the truncated triangle and Sonus Faber uses the curved "lyre" shape to break up resonances. So I don't think the classic designs have stopped appearing. As long as there are designers who do it for the love of music there will be classic designs. It just seems there are fewer designers who are dedicated to that budget level that Kloss and Vilchur worked in. Most of those designs have come from Canada over the past fifteen years as the designers there have a great advantage from the government research labarotory they have access to use.
My first decent hifi set up was a Citation Twelve (Deluxe w/ walnut cabinet); a funky pre amp from Dayton Wright out of Canada with a volume control, balance and a few selector switches; a Rega Planar 3 with an Infinity Black widow tone arm and an ADC XLM III cartridge. I started with a pair of small Advents, then Ohm C's, to Large Advents and then to double Advents. Yes, those were the days.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1273
Registered: Dec-03
This is unequalled knowledge and wisdom, guys. I would buy K&G speakers and also Jan's book.

Kegger writes "and you have to be very careful with preconcieved
notions.don't trust that something is allways the way it is.you may find what you believed in the past is no longer true.but for some people that's a difficult thing to do. "question yourself" "

If someone could just bottle this and send it round the world there would be no problem people could not solve.

Going back to specifics, and speakers, there is certainly a current feeling that bevelled cabinet edges are something worth having. I have no idea what the "ideal" shape is for a speaker, probably there is not just one, and of course you have to consider production realities. I only note there has never been a square musical instrument. There are a couple of very knowledgable speaker makers on this forum. I just like the K&G philosophy, and I know it works. In fact it is the only one that does.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1276
Registered: Dec-03
Furthermore, "the way i look at things is if someone else can
do it, why can't I?".

I find "Who do do think you are?" is the common response to that. "Just this guy, like everyone else" is my usual reply. Then I get shot down for arrogance, disrespect, etc. It seems the opposite, to me.

The main word K&G needs for marketing puposes is "timeless", I think.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 353
Registered: Dec-03
jan going back to your question for me. i have
built 4 sets of mini monitors.

(2 sets each)
6.5" drivers and tweeter "1 dome and 1 planer"
8" drivers and tweeter "1 dome and 1 horn"

for me personally i thought the 6.5" driver pairs
just, well, sounded small and needed a larger driver
to help them out.

and 8" ones were much fuller sounding which was
more pleasing to me.

the smaller driver speakers to me can be very accurate
and have a great sound but just lack that little
something extra. and that is were your aquired
taste can come in.

don't get me wrong i like the little guys but i
prefer the larger sound "if you know what i mean"
and i think you do.the last pair i did i mated them
to a dual 12" sealed driver cabinet and that made
the difference for me.thats the 1 with the planer
it sounds very nice.

and john i agree that approach of mine has gotten
me in trouble before but i usually back it up so
in the end it comes out right.

it all comes down to knowing what you personally
can and can't do.and a little bit of just going
for it!sometimes you make mistakes but hopefully
you learn something along the way.and that is
where the "question yourself" comes from you know
you are allways learning and something new might
change something else.

you like the company name "K.&.G." aye!
thought it was kinda catchy.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1278
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, guys. Sorry my last post crossed yours, Jan. You are correct about the bias of the Brit audio press. Last time round (twenty plus years ago) I eventually graduated from HiFi News (which has not much on music) to Gramophone (not much on audio), thinking the music is more important that the medium (I suspect I am headed that way now). But I couldn't stomach all the Land of Hope and Glory crap. There were "Chaps" there arguing that Japs couldn't make speakers for evolutionary reasons; thinly-disguised racism, in my opinion. Today, avoid all makes waving national flags. It usually means "made in China". Nothing wrong with that, but it means they take you for a fool, and imagine you are more interested in geopolitics than music. Jan, I think we first "clashed swords" here on this issue. I think I understand, now, but I didn't, then, that you were just trying to be nice to some Brit (not me) bemoaning the state of the UK audio industry. I actually thought you were a Brit waving the flag! Apologies for that.

Kegger, thanks. You are a beacon of good honest common sense. All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 354
Registered: Dec-03
yep that's me not a lot on the book smarts,
just a wealth of common sense. lol

you got me pegged.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 355
Registered: Dec-03
and i agree with your take on "buy this it's from
our country" crap, which most is.

that's great if it's a well made product i'll buy
that one first before any others.

but like you said most are just selling tools.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1280
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Give me common sense any time. Sometimes you find it in books, sometimes not. I do not want to get "heavy" on this, nor derail the thread, but I just got a priceless piece of e-mail spam, with flags all over the ------ place, plus embedded graphics. Quite why they (http://www.pasttimes.com/) imagine I am a potential customer, I have no idea.

D-Day June 6th 1944

Past Times has a wealth of exciting products to mark the 60th anniversary of D-Day - a day that undoubtedly changed the course of world history.

Buy three of our war-themed videos or DVDs and get 20% OFF the combined price.

Our fascinating D-Day Memorabilia Pack with facsimiles of original D-Day documents is now HALF PRICE.
Was £10 NOW £5

Enter our D-Day Prize Draw to win a Dam Busters Helicopter Flight with veteran British film star, Richard Todd, tracing the training route of the original Dam Busters! See website for more details and entry form.

...Anyone who has seen the film Saving Private Ryan will know something of the courage of the servicemen who, 60 years ago, fought for freedom on the beaches of France.....
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Two quick items:
John A. - Can you provide the web address to HiFi News. I can no longer find it on the shelves here in Texas (Fine way to treat an ally, next, I suppose, we won't be selling magazines from that other fine ally the Dominican Republic [they are still with us aren't they?]). I would like to check out their last issue. And whatever happened to HIFI Answers?
Anyone intersted in a great after Memorial Day movie should rent "The Best Years of Our Lives" with Frederick March and Myrna Loy. It won best picture in 1946. It is on my top five list.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1284
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

http://www.hifinews.com/

Spot the flag....
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 127
Registered: Apr-04
Don't know much about speaker building but did come across an interesting article about speakers built of hemp. I suppose if you weren't happy with their sound you could smoke them. :-) Anyway, these seem to be speakers for musicians amps/monitors and aren't commercial home stereo speakers, yet.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/053104hempcones/
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 128
Registered: Apr-04
Don't know much about speaker building but did come across an interesting article about speakers built of hemp. I suppose if you weren't happy with their sound you could smoke them. :-) Anyway, these seem to be speakers for musicians amps/monitors and aren't commercial home stereo speakers, yet.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 129
Registered: Apr-04
I've tried posting this several times so hopefully this won't end up as duplicate posts.

Don't know much about speaker building but did come across an interesting article about speakers built of hemp. I suppose if you weren't happy with their sound you could smoke them. :-) Anyway, these seem to be speakers for musicians amps/monitors and aren't commercial home stereo speakers, yet.

http://www.stereophile.com/news/
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 130
Registered: Apr-04
Sorry about the duplicate posts above! It looked like my posts weren't being accepted (thought maybe I was banned for being mean to the guys in the Receiver forum) but it appears they were.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 360
Registered: Dec-03
were they at let's get um! cmon boy's........lol


ghia very cool link.......i like!
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 547
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia--

Duplicating posts is often a sign of enterring Hempland :-)

Interesting post nonetheless. But guitar players "likes" and "wants" in sound are often very different from someone that wants accurate sound and playback from a whole range of music.

Guitar players like tube amps, but not because they are better--but because guitar players often play with the amps clipping and tube amps clip harmonically, while solid state amps clip more harshly (although there are some newer solid state designs used by guitarists now that have alterred outputs that clip in tube-like fashion). But tube amps remain the guitarists preferred component.

But for the home listener who values accuracy over harmonic distortion, getting an amp that never clips is the ideal. Guitarists have a different agenda--they like harmonic distortion.

Sorry for the digression, but it would be interesting to see if the hemp drivers make it to the home audio world (with the ability to reproduce the whole gamut of music and instruments accurately), or whether they remain a one trick pony--imparting a sound that guitarists just like.

By the way--how is your home set-up progressing?
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