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Archive through November 30, 2004

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 201
Registered: Oct-04
Jan V. - I think what Mer was trying to say was that she saw you as a person "in pain." Very sorry about that - I had rather bad arthritis in elbows and hips when we lived in Chicago - but since we've been here in HOT Florid-duh! the pain has disappeared. Understand anybody who is in pain - what a life-depressing situation!
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 340
Registered: Feb-04
Very entertaining posts, all. What are my chances of being a roadie for the Old Dog All-Stars? Would love to be a fly on the wall during the rehearsals.

Jan: For godsakes, who put the Russian tubes in the playback amp!

Kegger: I did. I got a great deal on them at this used appliance store on Eight Mile Road.

Jan: No, no, no. This won't do. The tubes have to be Bulgarian, manufactured between May Day of 1976 and Bastille Day of 1978. That was the pinnacle of tube manufacturing in Eastern...

Kegger: But I like how the Russian tubes sound. Yep, I do.

John A.: Why do we have Sony mics in the studio? I refuse to play into Sony equipment. They won't be sucking any music out me as if they were sucking money out of the wallet of some unsuspecting consumer.

Larry R.: Where's my Scotch?

Rantz: Hey, Dogs, aren't we supposed to be jammin'?

Jan: Not until I change the tubes.

John A.: Not until I change the mics.

Ghia (thinking to herself): I knew I should have gone solo, just like Elliot Smith and Nick Drake did. Oh, but they're dead, killed themselves. On second thought, I guess I'll stick it out with these Old Dogs. But why is Kegger passed out on the couch in the middle of a rehearsal?

Larry R.: Doggone it! Who took my Scotch?

to be continued....

or not.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 341
Registered: Feb-04
Larry R.

Believe it or not, the MTT/SFSO Mahler sacds don't approach the dynamic range of their live performances. For example, the ending of the 9th was played so softly that the music seemed to disappear into silence. At the other extreme, the finale of the 2nd made my sternum vibrate. I think it was the combination of the sonic force in Davies Hall and the pounding of my heart. I say learn to love the dynamic range of your Mahler discs!

P.S., I tend to be a hit-and-run poster, so please don't be offended if I don't respond right away. Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2524
Registered: Dec-03
No, don't leave, 2c, we need more Sturm und Drang in this band....

Nice sketch!

I agree about dynamic range. In recordings, I cannot imagine it ever being too large. For me it is the one of the chief considerations in hifi. I have been with people who continually fiddle with volume controls, turning down loud bits and turning up soft bits. Dynamic Range Compression must be there to do it for them. Their goal must be Muzak. It is strange.

Have you heard before of Jane Archibald, Canadian, a 2004 Adler Fellow at the San Franciso Opera? (My post of Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 10:28 am).
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2525
Registered: Dec-03
Just to say thanks to Jan; those are very good links on microphones. The google link was somewhat ungrateful. Apologies.

Kegger,

Thanks. I see what you mean. Jan's first recent link (Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 11:47 am) is about stereo microphone placement...

... that might be "recreative" when the reproduced image generally sounds like the original acoustics, and "creative" where a different image is created. Within these two approaches, many engineers divide the result into "they are here" or "you are there" images, depending on whether the performers sound like they're in the playback room, or if it sounds like the listener is in the performance room.

I generally favour "recreative" while you favour "creative", I think. But as always, you are right in saying there is no right and wrong way to do it.

We could ask Don, why are we recording this session in the first place? What are we trying to achieve? Do we want to sound like we are playing in the listener's room, or do we want him/her to hear what it was like being at the session? Or are we aiming for something he or she could never hear live, with special effects and so on, like, as Jan says, DSOTM or Sgt P?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2526
Registered: Dec-03
The second link, "Studio Recording - Tutorial" is how NOT to do it, for me. For example:

Sound absorbing material such as Sonex placed behind the singer will drastically improve the recording.....Because the voice has a wide dynamic range we almost always use limiting (typically the Universal Audio 1176) and/or equalization (typically the Summit Audio Pulteq) on vocal tracks. If a vocalist suddenly increases in volume, the limiter will prevent the signal from distorting

So all that skill, artistry, and training in dynamics was wasted. Those guys are aiming for Muzak.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 202
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - In a way, sir, you are correct. There are even settings on my Onkyo receiver that "smooth out" the sonic differences so that you can put most any recording on later at night and not worry about "ups and downs" in volume. Yep, "Muzak" is not far away.

Two Cents: thanks for your insight into the levels of Mahler. Mer gets very upset over the "sudden surges in volume," so I pretty much have to listen whilst she's in her studio, or gone to library for research, etc. Sigh.

Still would love to get out to yer faire towne to listen in person! Maybe next year???

More anon. . .
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest



http://www.coutant.com/binary/index.html



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2528
Registered: Dec-03
That is just counting using binary arithmetic, Jan. I thought "Quantization" meant something else....?

Is this some sort of test?

Look, when you count in decimal arithmetic, you get up to 9, then you make "ten" by using a 1 again, but followed by a 0. So ten is written "10".

With binary arithmetic, you get up to one, and you make two by using the 1 again, but followed by a 0. So 10 is two. You can add one, and you get 11 (three); add another, and you get 100 (four).

We dipped into binary with the duel now on Archive through October 17, 2004.

It is like this; digital samples are taken at a frequency of so many per second (equals "Hertz" or Hz). Then, each sample has a range of sizes, up to a maximum of 65,535 (CD; 16 bit) or 16,777,216 (DVD-A, LPCM etc: 24 bit). According to that link.

"Bit" just means the number of binary digits you need to use. So with 2 bit you can count up to three (11); 3 bit, up to seven (111); 4 bit, up to fifteen (1111).........; 16 bit, up to sixty-five thousand, five hundred and thirty-five (1111111111111111).

Analogue has no limit. But, for things like Mer's estimates of our heights, or distances travelled, there is no practical difference between the two. Consider 24 bit. If you have to travel 16.7 km, about 10 miles, it really is not a practical problem to be told you are only allowed to measure your distance covered in millimetre steps, which is the maximum resolution you have for each sample. Even with 16 bit, CD, You can still travel 65 metres, about 200 feet, in mm steps, and define the length of each step in number of millmetres travelled. Mostly, with an analogue tape measure, you would never need to do better than that.

Tolerances. Knowing when the measurement is good enough.

So digital is indistinguishable from analogue as long as you have enough information; enough bits per sample and a high enough number of samples per second.

You still need to get the microphones in the right place.

Sorry, what was the question?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2529
Registered: Dec-03
That was intended to be clear, not pompous. I am just trying to de-mystify. "Quantization" is one of those words that gets people looking worried. Seem to me, from that link, it just means the number of bits you've got at your disposal in order to be able to describe the size of your sample.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2530
Registered: Dec-03
Or anything else.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1878
Registered: Dec-03
Two Cents: your post
on Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 08:45 pm:

Was great, loved it.

___________________________

Larry mer's comments didn't affend me, rather close actually! lol

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2532
Registered: Dec-03
Has anyone else noticed that our category description had changed?

Was:

"DVD-Audio & SACD
The Next Generation Audio Formats? Go here for DVD players."

Now:

"DVD-Audio & SACD Player Discussions. Go here for DVD-Audio & SACD Music Discussions"

Seems we are mostly off-topic as regards the new category.

I though the point of this thread was trying to understand, and compare views, on the relationship between the medium and the content it delivers.

The new division between the players and the music does not help.

BTW "Varney" has some interesting things to say on Transcending Hi-Fi -(The 'Other Side') which is filed under "Amps".

MR; there is a thoughful guy who liked "The Matrix" and explains what he thinks it is about....
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 203
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - sorry, won't post anymore on this thread re my Yamaha, cones, or other "hardware." I'll try to find another thread - maybe the DVD players under Home Video? Yep. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 204
Registered: Oct-04
OK, gang - time to get it off my chest.
Several postings from John A. have complained about the broadening of topics discussed here on the "Old Dogs" thread. John would limit "talk" to stereo-multi channel discussions, which was the original theme. Fine.
Many of us, however, have found in the Old Dogs thread a kind of "backyard fence" discussion platform. It's nice to hear about Ghia's amps, and football "teams," it's nice to read about Kegger's tubes and see his pics, it's nice to hear about My Rantz and his house and his artwork, it's nice to read about Rick's past and his adoption, it's nice to read about Jan's theatre background - and on and on we go.

OK, John - I'm taking you up on your challenge. I, for one, will ONLY post regarding 2-channel vs. multi on this thread from now on. Of course, as I have little to say, you won't be hearing much from me.
I'll post my music comments on "Discoveries," and my CD-player woes probably on DVD players under Home Video.
I'd like to propose something which all of you must decide whether to adopt - or not. How about a new thread - call it "The Backyard Fence" or whatever you wish - make it a "hi, how are you?" sort of thread where all of us cyber-friends feel welcome and comfortable in chatting about our cats, our sore feet, or our new MacIntosh "blue light specials?"
This is as far as I'll go - Mer said I needed to "get it off my chest," so I am.
This is not written in anger, but in frustration.
Meanwhile, John A. seems to violate his own rules - with his mental exercises (boring to me but obviously intensely interesting to him) regarding Solipsism etc. on the "Amps" thread. Huh? How about a "philosophy 101" thread for that, John?

End of rant - will tune in to see what you all decide on John's comments - meanwhile, see you music-lovers on "Discoveries."

With respect. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 520
Registered: Apr-04
LR,

Did you have to sleep on the sofa last night? ;-) I think JohnA was just commenting about eCoustics changing the description of the forum which, if one is a n a l retentive enough to dissect it, would seem to indicate that our discussions are now slightly off-topic. I don't believe he was being critical of any particular post or poster. In fact, he clearly states that the new categorization makes it more confusing "The new division between the players and the music does not help."

I think the Old Dogs thread is open to "backyard fence" discussions and isn't just a 2ch/MC discussion - even though that generally is the centerpiece of the thread.

So, LR, stick around on Old Dogs (and discuss your player, tweaks, etc), continue to post to Discoveries when you like and, if necessary, open a Backyard Fence thread. But, that's one more thread for us to try to keep up with - and, wouldn't you rather try to annoy John by going OT from time to time? lol.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 207
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia: thanks for the posting - nice opening line! (double grin)
I'll see what others post. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 521
Registered: Apr-04
It's clear the Old Dogs saw through my post about going off to the Christmas tree farm....Rehab went fine, I've been clean for 2 days now....unless you factor in the Coke addiction, for which there is no treatment.

So, since this is a day for getting things off your chest (thanks, LR), let me express how disappointed I am by the "replacement" for me in the band as well as how quickly it came about. Everyone knows Diana is just using you guys until Elvis lets her play in his band. I can't believe you guys fell for her song and dance. And, who misrepresented my outside work as "going solo"? MR? Or JV (don't think I didn't see the 11/27, 11:58a post where you sold me out)?

These projects were all done for the well being of the Old Dogs. Everyone knows the girl in the band is the one who gets all the attention. My projects were to capitalize on that attention to help the Old Dogs....it's all about marketing. The bigger my fame, the better for the Old Dogs. Think of the reunion tour. In fact, in my loyalty to the Old Dogs, I've already lined up a corporate sponsorship with Coke.

Oh, and when that story about David Beckham comes out, keep in mind that I only did that with the Old Dogs in mind. Everything I do is about the Old Dogs. Really.

So, are we back on?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 656
Registered: Dec-03
Well said Ghia. I believe the "Dogs" shaped and defined this thread about 2000 posts ago. We invited anyone who would care to join in our lunacy and brillance to please do so. It is "our thread" and keep returning here for the company that posts here. For me it's like coming home to see what's going on.

Or we can go back to the discussion about the new hi-rez subwoofer cable. (LOL!)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

I've noticed when I take my old dogs for a walk, given the opportunity, they will always turn up the sidewalk they recognize as home. I'm always glad when I see them do that; and, I assume if they ever get away and start to roam unfamiliar neighborhoods, they have at least some sense of were home is and how to get back to where they will be welcomed. This is especially important to me since all my old dogs were, at one time, strays that had wandered the neighborhood for a while looking for a place they knew as home.

My smallest, most senior dog, Lil'Bit, wandered across a six lane road to end up at my house. She made herself comfortable as soon as she got in my house. She has lots of attitude packed in her eight pound body but she has lots of spirit and humor too.

My Cocker Spaniel, Buck, was being chased away with a garden rake and a water hose when I picked him up. He has appreciated the "new" home he has found ever since. He's gained about twelve pounds since he arrived five years ago. He is the one that dosen't want to be left alone and it appears he may have been put out on the street to fend for himself by his previous owner.

Foster is Foster. He's my middle dog and he is the only dog I've ever had that I cannot teach a single thing. He always does what he wants and Foster has a devious little mind that constantly frustrates me. He gets 2/3 of all the tomatoes I grow. No matter what barriers I put between him and the garden patch.

I don't know if my dogs really could always find their way back if they got too far from home, but I like to think they wouldn't stray very far.
They know where they will be confortable.



Is that off topic?



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"Or JV (don't think I didn't see the 11/27, 11:58a post where you sold me out)?"


Ghia - I did it for your own good. Honest!!! You know I love ya!!! Someone had to stop you from destroying your self. All that coke is doing you no good!!! What a beautiful, brilliant future you had when we first discovered you. You were all inquistive and ready for any suggestion we made. But once you started hanging with that Mac character, well, nothing's been the same!!!

Listen, girlfriend, what I did I did for you. It was time somebody said, "Whoa, hold on here. She's not what we thought she was, and it's time somebody showed the world what their little "Sweetheart" is really like."

An' it wasn't really my idea in the first place. It was John's. And you know what a pain in the backside he is. Always going on about how to count this or that. Never satisfied with the mics I put out. Never wanting that center monitor everyone else likes. Always somebody out to get him. If your looking for someone to blame, that's the guy. You know I love you, don't you???

Now don't get all uppity and in my face!!! I'm telling you I did for your own good!!!








'sides, I can go on a talk show or two myself, you know!!! And don't be suprised at the picture that's going to show up on my book jacket.



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 657
Registered: Dec-03
J.V.,

Thank your for sharing your dogs story with the "DOGS". Glad to see I'm not the only easy touch when it comes to animals.

Ghia,

Pepsi just came in with a counteroffer for the "Old Dogs Tour". They said they are willing to put that "other bunch of old guys" on the back burner.


PS It's always John's fault. (LOL!)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2533
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

If you can explain what it was in my post, above, of "Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 07:13 am" that offended you, so, please do so. I should be so grateful. I have re-read it several times and cannot understand your reaction. No offence was intended to anyone here, I assure you. But I apologise to you for letting one arise accidentally.

Ghia,

Great, great! "Christmas Tree farm"; nice one; I knew it had to be something else, but did not suspect the rehab place. Few now remember the name Betty Ford. As regards the Old Dogs All Stars and your loyalty and devotion to the band; it was never in question. It was just the issue of recording balance and then the whole "prima donna" sort of attitude which is great for promotion etc. I must agree, and thanks, but you must understand is a bit hard to take if you're older, male, unphotogenic and have spent all those years slogging away with brilliant but unnoticed riffs taken further than Jack Bruce ever knew, and all just for the purity of the art-form, without any concern for self-promotion. Have a heart, gal.

Re the case about to break, we have our sources, and the problem is, that's not how David Beckham sees it. So he says. And Victoria seems to agree. Jeez is she mad about that. We can't pay legal fees; hope you know that. Not with people downloading MP3 files instead of buying our albums.

I agree this new pianist seems to be less good at piano than some of the other things in her cv.

So, are we back on? Fine by me. Ask Don. He's the boss.

Jan,

Is that off topic?

No of course not, it is spot on, and well you know it. I believe that sort of question is described as "rhetorical". Hope that remark does not offend. I can post a pic of a domestic pet if it helps make me seem more human. We have loads to choose from. It'll have to be all 1s and 0s, but you won't notice the difference from 35 mm, I promise.

Re Ghia, Jan; - No-one could funk up those 16-bar riffs like Ghia, you must admit, inspirational stuff for the whole band. And she seems to have found herself, now. And there is a rumour Mac has been seeing a lot of Victoria recently.

How can we sell it to Don? A reunion tour and double album? I don't really mind a bit of judicious spot-miking on the piano. Just a bit, you understand.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1879
Registered: Dec-03
This Week's Finds in Mathematical Physics
John Baez
This is a column on mathematical physics where I describe papers and books that I happen to find enjoyable. It appears on sci.physics.research, sci.math.research, sci.physics, and sci.math - but I put it on this website to make it permanently accessible.

I don't write a new issue every week, but when I do, it is always this week.

Warning: the things I include are not necessarily more important or better than things I don't! Mostly I try to write about subjects I actually understand, which limits the selection tremendously. Also, my comments are not intended as "reviews" evaluating the papers. They are simply aimed at getting you interested.


To see the latest edition, click here.

To get to all the old dogs, click here.

For a table of contents of all the old dogs, click here.

To search all the issues for a given word or phrase, click here.

The search feature above was kindly provided by Laurent Bartholdi. I really love it!

You can also get the original ASCII versions of This Week's Finds if you want. But if you want these....

Information survives by people copying it. So, please download a tar file containing all of weeks 1-207 in ASCII or HTML!

I often update old issues of This Week's Finds to correct errors or add extra information, so please beware that the material in these tar files is only up-to-date as of October 1, 2004. The readme files explain that I am maintaining all rights to This Week's Finds, but letting you have a copy for personal use.




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Think deeply of simple things. - motto of the Ross Summer Mathematics Program
© 1992 - 2003 John Baez
baez@math.removethis.ucr.andthis.edu

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1880
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry that last post was off topic just disregard it.

Was meant to go somewhere else!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 208
Registered: Oct-04
John A. - nothing in your post "offended me." It's just that on many occasions you have referred to topics discussed on the Old Dogs thread as "not being true to the original design of the thread." Or words to that effect.
I took your posting to be yet another call to us to return to the original, single, topic. Apparently I mis-read your posting, as others on this thread seem to have a different take on it.
OK - I guess I'm wrong here - and to all, I apologize for my rather ignorant reaction.
"nuff said. . ."
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2537
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, I read it all, thinking it was by Joan Baez. Incredible. Then I got my reading glasses, and understood my mistake. Not much is "off topic" here!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 658
Registered: Dec-03
Hi All,

As we move toward the end of another year, and the holiday season approaches, I would like to share some thoughts with the "DOGS".

I just noticed I reached 650+ posts. That's probably far too many for someone who swore he would never make a single post on this or ANY forum. I really never did a post where I told someone they should go out and buy THIS over THAT component. I just shared my personal experience with gear that I know or heard firsthand. If I get excited about a product I tell people to go out and listen to it, and share your experience. For me to tell someone to buy something because I like it is insane. Someone may just listen to me and do it, so that is why I don't really give advice. What do I know anyway?

I will share what I have learned in 2004. I have learned to simplify. I have to give much thanks in that department to Jan Vigne, who reintroduced me to McIntosh gear. Or should I say the sound of Mac gear. So if simplicity is the name of the game, let me run this past you. I don't know a whole lot about electronics, but I do know simple circuits tend to sound better than complex ones. So what is simpler than a triode? Yes I am talking tubes here. I can hear all the flat earthers now; What about the second order harmonic distortion, the highs being rolled off, and so on. Should we rely on our ears or a test bench to tell us what sounds good? So I guess my point is, 2005 may be the year of the SET amp for this old dog. I am going to give it a try, compare it to the Mac, and I'll share my thoughts with you.

Thank you all for accepting me into this forum. Each of you are very special to me in your own way. Oh yeah, I almost forgot, mono, stereo, multi-channel, hi-rez, low-rez, no-rez, it doesn't matter. My New Years resolution is to buy and listen to more music. But then again, we can't have people listening for pleasure, can we?

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1881
Registered: Dec-03
John my last was obviously meant in jest.

Just to show larry that anything still goes on the dogs thread!

Larry post away sir!
I wouldn't feal bad about taking someones post wrong.
We have all done it by now!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1882
Registered: Dec-03
Good stuff rick I believe you will enjoy the tubes!

And not to open a new can of worms, but nowadays you don't
have to sacrifice anything with tubes.

"Highs rolled off or pour bass or what not with the right setup."

"not saying older ones do" But the valve's have been misunderstood
by many and with the right parts "for you" can be tailored to
whatever your looking for!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Rick - That sounds like a great idea. I've always thought about going to triodes but couldn't convince myself to get rid of the Macs, which would have to happen. Do you have anything in mind? Have you considered the DIY stuff? I suggested on another thread that a person could learn more about audio with DIY, even if it becomes mostly a connect Part A to Part B scenario, than merely unpacking something from a box. I'd be interested to hear what you have in mind. What are you planning for the Spendors? I assume they will stay with the Mac and the SET will be an additional set up. If so what are you planning to use for speakers with the tubes? And what tube # are you thinking about? Have you read about any of the "small tube" SET's? Amps that use small signal tubes usually found in pre amps, such as 12AX7, 6DJ8 triodes. There is a growing cult of SET fans who have moved to these amps. There are a few new designs but many of them are revitalized old dogs that were made in the 50-60's and meant to produce just a few watts at most. They make a 300B amp look like a powerhouse. Definitely an acquired taste as they severly limit your speaker choices.



http://homepage.mac.com/urbanradio/Vintage.HiFi/Vintage.HiFi.html


http://www.meta-gizmo.com/tri/otldebate.html


I thought ears vs. test gear was one thing we had agreed on?


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 211
Registered: Oct-04
To all: And my end-of-the-year promise is to read all postings at least three times before reacting. That way, I may actually get it right!
(blush)
Some interesting conversations cropping up on Discoveries now - hope you all tune us in to get a slightly diff-runt view. . .

Two Cents - hey, friend, come back - I've got some qustions for you! On the forum or chat me up on wryte4u@comcast.net.

Don - check your e-mail.

Ghia - well? Did Mer "see" you correctly - or are you, as Rick has suggested in past writings, "taking the 5th? - the amendment, not the bottle. . .

More anon . . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 212
Registered: Oct-04
Rick: I find nothing wrong with urging people to listen to this or go see that - if you are excited about either a piece of gear or a CD, let it out! Just don't get upset if the people who tried the product failed to agree with you!
In my case, I tend to get super-excited about opera and classical performances - and probably have spent too much time on this and other forums extolling the virtues of whomever. Sigh. I love music so much, and just want to share it.
Many of you are in the opposite camp, love-wise. You love "gear." Fine - and at one time in my life I did, also. But now I just wish for simplicity - and do NOT get it with dozens of knobs and switches - most of which I tend to set WRONG!
But I often sneak out and look at hifi equipment just based on what some of you recommend. Can't or won't buy it - but I appreciate the enthusiasm on your part.
And I know full well that, even if you post: "Go Buy This _ _ _ _" it is the result of enthusiasm, not a power-grab! (grin)
Glad you are posting, and that you are passionate about audio.

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 659
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Thank you for your interest. Yes, we definitely agree on our ears vs. test gear. I would never sell the 6100 and the Spendors. They just sound too good together. I may move that system into a bedroom, and put the SET system into a listening room/study. I have been looking at the Sun Audio SV2A3. It is available as a kit or assembled. I'm not much of a DIY person when it comes to electronics, so I better do myself a favor and buy it assembled. I have also read reviews of the Omega Grande 6 speakers. It's a small world. The company is only 10 miles from where I work in Connecticut. I know I need to find something very efficient. Thank you for the links. As I get closer, I'm sure I'll want your advice and input.

Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 149
Registered: Jun-04
New Konspiracy Theory album by Old Dawgs!


Ehpryl Sloof Records announced today the release of the new Old Dawgs album, "Konspiracy Theory," on CD, SACD, and DVD-A. The album's cover features a disc superimposed on a human eye. The disc serves as the pupil.

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Producer Sem said that Ehpryl Sloof is committed to ensuring that fans and buyers of Old Dawgs' albums can continue to enjoy their music regardless of the format.

All the band members contributed their own original materials. Bassist John A. wrote the title track. In an interview with the Old Dawgs on BBC Radio's Toan Deff, John explains the motive behind the song, "There's been this conspiracy theory going on my mind about the way that...", but stops short of explaining after catching MyRantz's glare. The other tune that John wrote is "Much Ado About NADa", a reference to the ongoing negative comments by frustrated owners of NAD amps and receivers.

Larry wrote and played the lyrical, evocative "Memories of Gypsy." He also contributed two more original tunes, "Send in the Crowns (La Mer)" and "Vivid Cones." He says the La Mer was based on neither the classic Beyond The Sea (La Mer) or the Debussy piece of the same name. He wouldn't elaborate on the "Mer" part. When asked about "Vivid Cones," he gave a Paul Desmond-like enigmatic smile and shrugged off the question.

Ghia penned, played piano and sang on "Roomie Blues." On John A's "Konspiracy Theory," she plays a funky 16-bar solo (engineer Jan decided to use Take 3 of this song). Ghia also wrote "Mac."

MyRantz wrote "Look Ma (No Hands)" featuring him on an Ovation acoustic-electric guitar backed up by John on acoustic bass, Kegger doing fantastic brushwork, Ghia on piano, and Larry on clarinet. He also wrote "Move On, Brother". Unknown to him and much to MR's chagrin, producer Sem hired "wall of sound" creator Phil Spector to add a "wall of strings" ("...enough to cover the **expletive deleted** Great Barrier Reef", fumed MR) and synthesized voices on "Look Ma (No Hands)." Following Paul McCartney's move to reissue "Let It Be... N a k e d," MR pressed Sem to include the original recording of "Look Ma" sans Spector's meddling. True to his wit, MR re-titled the clean track as "Look Ma (I'm Newd)."

Kegger wrote "Tube-bee or Not To Tube-bee)" which left BBC host Ton Deff scratching his head. "Think 'tubes', man", Kegger advises Deff.

Half of the album tracks were recorded in August; the rest were recorded on several dates because the band members could not get together in the studio for engagement reasons. Recording engineer |b{Jan} used a 3-mic approach on all the tracks that were recorded together by the band. However, on the tracks that were done separately, he and some of the members employed a multi-micing approach, something that he didn't fully agree to.

Rumours are rife that "Konspiracy Theory" may be the last album by Old Dawgs. One insider, who refused to be identified, said that the relationship has started to unravel. He added that this started with a seemingly harmless debate between 2-channel stereo and multi-channel, hi-rez listening. The insider said that at one time, the band members resorted to name-calling and ripostes. When asked by Toan Deff about such rumours, Ghia said, "Nah, this type of bickering is an indication we are becoming "family".

Producer Sem declined to comment on the rumour, saying simply that "Old Dogs" is a group of civil, profound thinkers whose only pleasure in life is to play, listen to and enjoy music. And once in a while, they throw verbal jabs at each other but short of challenging each other to a duel at dawn, they get along fine. He also hinted that he and Jan are working on re-issuing old albums using the 3-mic technique that Jan espouses.

The album is now available through amazawn-dot-com and all retail record stores near you.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 150
Registered: Jun-04
Reviews of the "Konspiracy Theory" album are mixed.

Esther Yo, editor of Pure Stereo magazine, prefers the CD mix, adamantly standing by her position that "you don't need any more than 2 channels to hear a perfectly good stereo sound." She also adds that the 3-mic setup provides a natural, warm-sounding ambience that puts the listener right in the heart of the performance.

Muhl Tai Chan L., editor of Hi-Rez magazine, however, lavishes praises on both the DVD-A and SACD formats. You can actually here MyRantz's fingers plucking those D'Addario strings on the Ovation guitar. And listen to Larry's solo on "Memories of Gypsy"; you can hear a real live person there as he catches his breath between musical phrases. However, he adds, there seems to be some "masking" in some of the Konspiracy Theory album, similar to the Paul-is-dead hoax that surfaced in 1969 when supposedly, "masked" messages in some Beatles songs indicated that the bassist was dead. For instance, Muhl Tai notes:

On "Konspiracy Theory," there's a line in the coda that goes "Sony is out to get you, Sony is out to get you." Muhl Tai says that you can only hear the words through a headphone.

On "Move On, Brother", Muhl Tai says there's a voice that seems to come out of the grave, mockingly saying, "Stereo is dead, get on with it." The line is repeated several times until the song fades.

When interviewed by Muhl Tai Chan L., Ghia explained the alleged masking. Take 3 of "Konspiracy Theory" has John playing a great bass solo and motions me to do a 16-bar improv. Just before the song ends, he quips, "Sun is out, why don't you?", meaning, "The sun is out, why don't you go get some?" She says that the band has been cooped up in the studio for a couple of days rehearsing the album tracks.

On "Move On, Brother", Ghia says that MR was doing an improv with the line, "I said you're dead, get on with it." When asked to explain that line, she simply said, "Artistic freedom." She offered to explain, though, that in both cases, John and MR stepped back from the microphone and decided to sing those lines. The "grave-like" effect that Muhl Tai was alluding to could perhaps be because of the distance from the mics.

Art Camm, owner and proprietor of Kentafford Hi-Fi Shoppe, says the two hi-rez formats do justice to the expensive Arcam, Linn, and Rotel receivers paired with B&W speakers that he sell. The sonic detail and soundstage is unbelievable. "The CD version is good but limited in its dynamic range," he adds.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 151
Registered: Jun-04
The line should read, "...neither the classic Beyond The Sea (La Mer) NOR the Debussy..."

Missed my grammar there.

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2539
Registered: Dec-03
Don,

Brilliant. Just amazing. Awesome.

And I thought no-one was listening....

Quick forum interruption: Rick, I am with you all the way, thanks, and I, too, have already made my New Year's resolution. One question: what means "SET"...?

Don again,

Love the cover designs. You forgot the 180 g vinyl, for purists. Remember we want to get reviewed in HiFi News etc., too.

OK if Ghia re-joins the band?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 152
Registered: Jun-04
180g. vinyl, limited edition released today

Poster included.

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 153
Registered: Jun-04
As far as I'm concerned, Ghia never left the band.

In fact, a new Bosendorfer 214 will be delivered this week to replace the Yamaha C-3 in the studio.

Ghia, please, no ice cream while recording? The high-rez format is so unforgiving in the detail.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Don - Two thumbs up!!! Glad you didn't mention the part in the review where the startling difference between the three mic vs. multi mic set ups confused and disturbed the listeners.


Larry - It doesn't get much simpler than what I've linked below. One switch and one knob.

John - You will find your answer in the link below.

Rick - Sun Audio is great stuff. Here's another option.

"Assembly is a one or two evening affair, designed for the builder with little or no kit assembly experience."

The site also has some more options for speakers.


http://www.bottlehead.com/et/adobespc/S.E.X./SEX.htm


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 214
Registered: Oct-04
Don: Wow - I thought I was a writer. Nope. Can't even begin to compare with you, sir! Am destroying all my pencils and erasers tonight, and probably will take drastic action against my paper-supply as well. Sigh.
Never in my life have I imagined such genius, sir! Had I been in the "boss" position, I would have hired you in an instant - probably at 2nd-grade union position, which carried a $55,000 salary, full health care and a great stock option. To start with, that is. . . upgrades to follow annually. Hmmm. . .
Well, back on earth, I listen to some more stereo and long for day when I'm truly satisfied with the sound.
Mer opined today that she gets "fatigued" by listening to the Polk speakers for a longish time. I think that may be a problem. Never thought of it. Fatigued? Must be something in those speakers that are not quite right?
Any and all thoughts on "fatigued" in listening to speakers - - OK, please.

Away to Chinese take-out tonight - the "chef" is tired from a day of house-cleaning and table-varnishing. House-husband's work is NEVER done!!

More anon. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 660
Registered: Dec-03
Larry & John,

Thank you.

Jan,

Thanks for the far more detailed explanantion on SET's than I could ever give.

Trust me, when it comes to building things, it involves a thing called patience. Of which I have little to none. I have put together enough childrens toys to know my limitations.

If you get a chance go to the Mapleshade site and check out the modded small tube sets they do. I believe these are the smaller output tubes you mentioned in the last post. Tell me what you think.

Don,

Very funny!

Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2540
Registered: Dec-03
Great. Lost for words.

Thanks, guys.

Ghia on keyboards. All's right with the world.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Rick - I'd seen the amps on the Mapleshade site and wondered if you had taken a look at them. I think they are certainly worth a consideration. There is a money back guaranty so there is little to lose other than shipping costs. That's worth the gamble I would say. I know you like the Mapleshade products and the sound they go for so I can't think of a good reason not to try them.

Here's a few things to consider before you decide:

They are not single ended, they are a more conventional push-pull type amplifier. Nothing wrong with that unless you think you really want to try the SET. The output tubes on these are conventional power tubes, not the small tube designs I mentioned.
The Scott and Heathkit amps from the 60's were considerd to be excellent designs; and, like most tube amps from that period, you are looking at a simple circuit done at the pinnacle of tube design.
The receiver is listed as a Scott 340 with no designation "A" or "B". The "B" uses a solid state power supply which is less desirable to a tube lover. The "A" has the tube p.s. I would inquire about what exactly you would be buying. I would also ask about any chokes or thermistors in the power supply as they allow a "soft start" for the tubes. By bringing the voltage up slowly, with a choke, tube life will be increased dramatically. It will make a difference in tube costs.
The 7591 in the receiver is a good tube that is fairly easy to find. (I've included a link to a tube source.) The receiver's power is enough to drive the Spendors to reasonable levels and will do well on most speakers depending on your tastes. (The integrated amps have no power designation nor model # listed.) That could make speaker selection easier than having to live with a 3 watt amp. (Part of the allure of the SET's is also the speakers that will go with it. This can be as much of the decision about SET's as the amp itself.) 300B SET's can get around 12 watts , so you don't have a big difference between the wattage/volume. 7591's are a lot less expensive than 300B's. As the cult of SET listeners has grown, the competition over which tube of what variety is the best is driving prices up to what I consider astronomical levels for the Big Boy SET tubes. Tubes do wear out and retubing cost is one thing a lot of people don't consider until they need a new set of tubes. And, to some extent, there is a large difference in the look of the Mapleshade products vs. a SET amp, particularly a SET with a 845 tube in it. It is the sound that matters but almost every customer I had was aware of the look of their system also. And a SET looks very striking in the dark. (Without a cage it can also be very dangerous.)

I'd give Mapleshade a call to discuss what you will find between their product and an SET. They seem to shoot pretty straight and I would think they will tell you what they feel is best for you.


http://www.hhscott.com/receiver.htm


http://www.hhscott.com/Default.htm



scroll down to Sovtek:

http://www.vacuumtube.com/tubes.htm


 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 355
Registered: Mar-04

quote:

New Konspiracy Theory album by Old Dawgs!


Don,

That is excellent!!! And you're right about me getting Phil Spector for the "Wall of Strings" - There was a narrow window of opportunity there, you know. I had to grab him before he gets sent up the river. :-)


Great, simply great!!


 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1151
Registered: Aug-04
Don,

Just popping in quickly to say that your creative talents are awsome. Bravo!

But this is really quite eerie: You can actually here MyRantz's fingers plucking those D'Addario strings on the Ovation guitar.

The last guitar I had was indeed an Ovation. It was an Ovation 'Applause' (moulded back) and was actually (drum roll) strung with D'Addario wires. Whoooooooooooo!

Excellent stuff - way too much talent for an old dawg!

BTW:

The screeching feedback that almost pierced Mr Vignes eardrums at our last rehearsal was not only intentional but also because I can't play a guitar or sing well enough to save my life. So before you need the find the courage to break the bad news please accept this as my resignation from the Old Dawgs. Anyway, it was doomed from the beginning as the three mic recordings only appeal to the old pharts and because the babyboomers are soon to send goverments bankrupt around the globe, the concensus is that it will be difficult enough for them to purchase toilet paper let alone any Old Dawg recordings.

Good Luck!

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1883
Registered: Dec-03
Hey rick don't know excactly what your after.

Or when or how much you want to spend.

I just realized a neat thing with audiogon "you probably allready know"
But anyway you can do a search by zip code to find things in your area.

Well it looks like most if not all new york starts with 1 as the
first digit so I did a search, this is just one that came up, looks interesting!

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1104364288

Just thought I'd throw my 2 cents in there.
Good hunting and hope yu find something nice.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2541
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

So before you need the find the courage to break the bad news please accept this as my resignation from the Old Dawgs. Please reconsider. You are irreplaceble. Also, remember all the trouble caused when Ghia was reconsidering her position.

Sem,

Mr Spector was once outspoken in his opinion that "mono rules"; he held out against stereo, saying it had nothing to do with music, if I recall. A bit like an earlier version of Jan. Where is Mr Spector now? I have been out of touch.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2542
Registered: Dec-03
Don,

Thanks again for the resumé and reviews.

I wonder if I am alone in having noticed the much better detail and resolution of the LP ....?

You can even see a bit of red-eye breaking through, I fancy.

Of course, this can easily be filtered out, digitally, but I always like the original best, imperfections and all.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 661
Registered: Dec-03
Jan & Kegger,

Thanks for the info and the links. I still have a lot of questions, research, and listening to do. I know ultimately I will go with an integrated tube amp. It looks like the tube to go with if I go with the Sun Audio SET is the Electro Harmonix 2A3EH gold grids. Looks like they are made in the same plant as the Sovtek's. All new stuff for me.

I quess the big question now is what difference in sound is there between a SET and a PUSH-PULL? Although I consider the looks of some tube amps to truly look like works of art, it's the sound that will do it for me.

I have to call Mapleshade to get some power specs on their integrated's. They say their test bed speaker was the Maggie 3.6. I don't see how you can drive that with say 15-20 watts.

Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 357
Registered: Mar-04
John A.

Old news, but, looks like Phil Spector may be in some big trouble...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3225178.stm


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 216
Registered: Oct-04
Jan - thanx - one switch, one knob - PERFECT!
(GRIN)

I think there should be some way of framing Don's Konspiracy Theory postings! I constantly scroll back to them - and will surely print them out! Absolute genius, Sir Don!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 154
Registered: Jun-04
John, Jan, Larry, Rick, Sem, MR.

Thanks. That was a once-in-a-blue-moon outburst of creativity. Like Halley's comet, it will take another lifetime to come up with another one :-)

Larry, mi amigo / mon amis, thanks for your generous praise. But... I only need to read the first two paragraphs of your Gypsy saga to make me realize what I really am: a wannabe.
Your writing style is still light years ahead of mine. (BTW, if you want to preserve the Old Dawgs album covers, just right-click on each one and Save Picture As... > in your

John, (a few posts back)...

Re: gestalt therapy, thanks for dusting off an old corner in my memory! It instantly took me back to my university days and Psychology 101. (But let's not go there. This psychobabble stuff throws my brain cells out of whack.)


MR,

...please accept this as my resignation...

You can check out anytime you like...


but you can never leave!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 219
Registered: Oct-04
Don: HAH! I'll put your writing up against my prose anytime - and meet you at dawn with crossed pens! Sir! (triple grin)
Have printed out all of your Konspiracy postings, and consider them "gold."

NOW - all of my friends - how do we get an administrator-type to archive "Discoveries?" The thread is getting so long it's ridiculous!! A liddle hep heah, guyz!!

 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 155
Registered: Jun-04
Question to all:

Since last weekend, I've been having problems logging in. I sign on with my usual user name/ID and password, but I don't see the notification, "logged in as ..." Neither do I see my user name and pwd (****) in the add-message box. Anyone have the same problem? This is happening on any PC that I use.

See below. I'm already logged in but I don't see my user name. I had to type it again in order to post this message.
Upload


I'll check with admin, but I thought I'd ask you guys as well.

Thanks,
Don
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 358
Registered: Mar-04

quote:

NOW - all of my friends - how do we get an administrator-type to archive "Discoveries?" The thread is getting so long it's ridiculous!! A liddle hep heah, guyz!!


Larry, I think threads are automatically archived after 100 posts. Check the top of this thread, its archived at each 100 entries.



 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 220
Registered: Oct-04
Sem: yessir, this one is, and the older Discoveries threads were - but we've got WAY over 100 posts on Discoveries now - but I don't know how to "talk" with the administrators. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 157
Registered: Jun-04
Larry,

Go to the main Message Board, then Suggestions and Feedback. From there, click on Start New Thread. Address your request to admin. You will see my new post there re: my problem with staying logged-in.

I hope this helps.

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 221
Registered: Oct-04
Don - thanx - and I hope you can get your problem solved! I often have a lot of trouble with the forum coming up slowly but never had your problem. More. . .latr.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Here I am again, acting as if you guys don't know anything. Not my intention. While I was poking around for the microphone stuff I came a cross an offer for some informational e-mails on mic and studio techniques. It is fairly basic stuff but I will assume that many of you don't know how sound gets from the musicians to the tape. If you are interested in finding out how that happens and why you hear things on your discs the way you do, these articles may be interesting. I'll post them as they arrive, with some edits for space, for you to read. If they are interesting to you, I'll continue as the come in. If they don't interest you, you can either just cruise past them or note that you find these bothersome and I'll spare myself the time of posting them. Either way I'll undoubtedly be getting lots more Spam since another group has my email address now. It is just another example of the travails of looking out for you guys. (That is meant to be mildly humorous, just so no one misinterprets my intentions.)


 

email/J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Compression

Hmm so what is compression?

Well the concept of compression can be hard to get initially. I still remember the feeling of not being able to hear it, or at least not knowing what to listen for. I would turn the
dials on the unit and expect to hear something really obvious,
but I never did. Well I heard something was changing but just didn't understand what was happening to the signal. So what is
going on?

Where did it all start?

OK this is the deal. Real life has what's known as a dynamic range. A dynamic range is the range of volume that any particular
sound has. Think of a volume dial on an amp, the dynamic range here is the range of volume from fully left (off) to fully on (pain in your ears). It is the range of signal level from the
quietest sound to the loudest sound. Think of an orchestra playing very softly in a theatre and then playing very loudly. Also think that when we record the orchestra playing the very
soft sections we will also be hearing background noise. Background noise is known as ambient noise. Close your eyes now and listen. If I close mine I hear the street outside and cars
rolling past and the odd bird. The point being there is a threshold in almost all situations whereby we reach a lower limit. The upper limit of the dynamic range is governed by the
instruments ability to produce volume. Drums are pretty loud but do have a limit. An airplane is even louder.

Useable range

Without getting bogged down with maths, typically music (especially niche market music), like jazz and folk, certainly classical, has a dynamic range that is almost greater that the
dynamic range of the equipment used to record it.

Do you get that concept? It's important.

I'm saying that the recording equipment is not able to record the quiet bits and the loud bits. However, this is becoming less of a problem with modern technology, which I'll touch on another
paper.

Lets go back in time.

Think of George Martin, surely you have heard of him? The 5th Beatle. Inspirational producer. Well what George used to have to do (as did all engineers) was to manually move faders. Have you
ever had to do this? The track is playing along nicely then suddenly a loud section appears in the mix and WOW you have to grab the fader and lower the level for a split second to stop it
clipping. And then moments later the track becomes quieter and you find you have to move the fader back up again in order to hear it! Hmmm this is known as 'gain riding'. Gain riding it anticipating the volume changes in the mix and adjusting the fader accordingly.

So what's going on?

Well this bit is easy. Gain riding is the manual moving of the faders so the equipment can cope with the dynamic range of the music. The fact is most electronic equipment can't cope with a
big dynamic range.

Automatic gain riding

So someone then came along and thought hmm... why can't I make a box that will do this gain riding for me. Think about it. You only have 10 digits to move faders at opposite ends of a mixing board. Well they did make the box and they called it a compressor. They made it so that the output of the box is dependent on the input level. So if the input level rises by a
certain amount the output is then decreased. This works on a ratio and you've probably seen this 'ratio' dial on a compressor.

More context

You have a trumpet player in the studio and he is attempting to play a soaring lead line of the final chorus. The problem being is that when he blows the very high notes he needs lots of
breath and the volume of the trumpet is quiet. You loose the line in the mix. The rest of the line is fine and at a good volume. Compressor to the rescue.

Yeah how?

OK so what the compressor does is to essentially reduce the dynamic range of the trumpet. It makes the difference between
the loud bits and the quiet bits, smaller. If you have looked at a waveform on any digital audio software imagine the peaks becoming closer to the troughs. The range of volume (dynamic)
is lowered. We then use the gain make-up dial to boost the whole signal.

Gain make-up

Gain make-up is like a volume control for the compressor. Once the compressor has compressed the dynamic range we then need to turn it all up! The net result of course, is that the lower
sounds are boosted in level to become closer to the level of the original loud parts. We can now hear all the trumpet notes. Wonderful!

Maximum compression is when the dynamic range is removed completely. What I mean by that is that there is no longer quiet bits or loud bits, the signal is at one constant level throughout the track. Livin La Vida Loca - Rickey Martin is an
example of a track that has had this applied. If you look at the waveform of this track you'll see there is hardly any dynamics at all! But it works, it's not produced for quiet home listening. It's made to kick *ss.

The compression race

Compression is popular by all pros as what we are doing is increasing the long-term average level of a signal. After compression the sound appears to be louder because it stays at a
higher level for a longer period of time. This makes our sounds appear 'fatter' with more 'punch'. With vocals we now hear the
subtle breaths on the voice, giving an intimate flavour. What POP engineers are now in the business of is maximizing the long-term average level to make their track have more punch then
the last guys. The Rickey Martin tune will sound good in a variety of formats, loud bars, the car and nightclub. The tune makes you listen. Advertisements on TV employ the same concept.
You've experienced this right? You are watching a film with all the subtle quite bits then on comes the commercial break and WOW, it knocks your ears out! Compression used here is to maximise the volume, to make you listen. There are prescribed industry standard levels for this and the broadcasters will try to make their commercials max out on this level.

What now?

Start listening out for compression. Listen for voice breaths, pronounced attack, constant levels. Use your digital audio editor to examine waveforms. Once you become a user and understand
compression you'll wonder how you ever managed without.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 663
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Thank you for looking out for us. Some of us, as you know, need constant guidence and supervision. Well, you know who they are..............(LOL!)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2543
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Thanks. But this just confirms that compression is double-plus ungood. If, that is, you want things to sound like "being there".

However, if you want to be punched: What POP engineers are now in the business of is maximizing the long-term average level to make their track have more punch then
the last guys.


Just say "no" to compression.

I am going to have to find somewhere to post my long post on realism and representation in audio. It will annoy many people, and bore most of the rest. But do we not wish faithfully to portray the sound of the performance? Do we not trust the performers to decide on when and where to add "punch", and how much? Who do these recording guys think they are? I am thinking of starting a new thread, but there is no category for it. "What are we doing this for in the first place?" is not a compelling title. "Transcending Hi-Fi" (see below) is sort of getting close. Or possibly further away.

Don,

I have always found admin really helpful - send a direct e-mail.

Re: gestalt therapy, thanks for dusting off an old corner in my memory! It instantly took me back to my university days and Psychology 101. Please take a look at Transcending Hi-Fi -(The 'Other Side'). I am at a loss for words. But I like "Varney"'s post and must try to think of something.

Sem and Larry,

Yes, every hundred posts. "Discoveries" missed the last hundred mark, for some reason. I am sure it will sort itself out.

Sem,

Thanks for the link. Yes, you've jogged my memory of that story. You'd only get a "wall of sound" from stereo, I should have thought. Mono would give a "pillar of sound" at the most. Although, maybe he had a wall of speakers all playing the one channel. I forget.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

John - Not standing up for compressors or gain riding but, if you read the article again, I think you'll find they are the people dealing with technology. I would be willing to bet that one of the first pieces that most studios add is a compressor. This would be doubly true in the analog recording studios where overdriving the electronics and saturating the tape were constant concerns. Of course what a compressor will generally do is make the engineer's job easier by removing a portion of his job, which should be to set the levels correctly. But that doesn't play on FM radio in Peoria, Illinois.

I found it interesting while reading some of the articles I linked above that the three mic method was abandoned in the mid 60's mostly because it was percieved as too expensive and too time consuming. No matter that the Mercury recordings set the bar at a level that other labels tried to match or better for several years after the first Living Presence* recordings were introduced to the public.

*Interesting also that the term Living Presence came from a reviewer who stated the recordings put the listener in the "living presence" of the performers. A phrase so good it became Mercury's slogan.


 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 224
Registered: Oct-04
OK, gang - time for a good laugh at ole Lar's expense!
Got one of my credit card bills today - with a $6.95 "mystery" charge. Called something called CCbill - and a very embarrassed young lady said the charge was for an "adult" Site subscription - and that this was only a 7-day trial. Further, there was a $39.95 bill to be applied EVERY MONTH! Huh? (double blush)
Well, I got on the phone with the credit card folk - who thought it pretty funny, as they'd had nine such calls already today. Yes, it's an "adult" site - and yes, they had ALL of my card numbers, including the 3-digit security code on the back. They must have "lifted" it from some other Online transaction - even though I'm always told that I have a "secure" (hahahaha) ordering connection.
Well - they're cancelling the charges and investigating the company, and now I'll have to get a new card, etc. REALLY BURNS ME!!!

OK - laugh away - but remember: "it could happen to you, too!"

This sort of thing, I'm told, happens all the time. Moral - check your credit card statements VERY closely - and Online, if possible. Whew!

OK - second Scotch under my belt, and am feeling better. Even laughing about it now - though Mer looked at me rather strangely when I told her about the poorno site subscription. I "think" she believes me when I say "I'm innocent!" I "think" so. . .

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1887
Registered: Dec-03
Found this an interesting read, if anyone else finds it so I'm glad!
Otherwise toss it out with the rest.

"SNEAK PREVIEW: THE 300B KARMA SUTRA TEST PROCEDURE
THE GUILDMIESTER OF THE TRIODE GUILD DOES HIS JOB

As you will soon discover, when you read the exciting fall issue of Positive Feedback, I am embarking on a intimate examination of the different sen$ual pleasures derived from many different brands of 300Bs : the 300B harem. Because of my obligation to you, as Guildmeister of the Triode Guild, I am describing my test procedure for audio intellectuals which may be one of the most intensive investigation of this directly heated triode eroticism. By the end of October my full erot!c conclusions, which may be very neurotic, will be ready, and I hope they don't drive you psychotic....we can't be sure because triodmaniacs are, by their nature, unstable.

TUBES TESTED: Sovtek, Svetlana, KR, Western Electric, JJ/Tesla, Golden Dragon, Valve Arts.

AMPLIFIERS:

(1) Single-ended /transformer output stage: I have now configured my own custom amps so that there is a separate adjustable tube regulated power supply for the output and input/driver stage, so I can dial in exactly the "ideal" voltage for each output tube. While the Magnequest FS 30 output transformer is designed for 60-75 ma of bias current it is easy to hear when a tube is at its optimal point as I adjust the voltage. This may be shocking to you but, in the same way you adjust the tracking angle of your cartridge and hear exactly when it is optimal, so it is with a 300B and its output transformer. A difference of ten or twenty volts is apparent. At one particular voltage the sound "locks" in, and it is not subtle.

This is the only fair test of these tubes because some tubes sound best at anywhere from 350 volts to 450 volts. Of course having adjustable independent tube regulated power supplies for the output and input stage is a significant sonic advantage because it enhances the image stability, creates a much more refined presentation, brings tonal quality to another level, and most importantly, it releases the tubes do to their dynamic best. It confounds me that this notion...independent regulated power supplies for both the input and output stage (so that they are completely isolated from each other), which is as old as the hills, still alludes mainstream triodemaniacs. If only a few of our leading triode savants would try this experiment they would realize what a shocking advancement this is in the single-ended performance. I will tell you in advance that when going back to a tube rectified power supply many of the sublime differences in these tubes are masked, especially their dynamics.

Can I be more subtle and poetic in explaining this point? Think of a regulated power supply as making love without a condum, and using a tube rectifier or solid state rectifier and no regulation as making love with a workmen's rubber glove on. Did you understand that pure guy analogy?

These amplifiers have no electrolytic capacitors, because they are tonal arsenic, and only use oil caps, or polypropylene in the power supply. I use pre-1960s 6SN7 input tubes in my classic RC front end.

(2) Push-Pull/transformer output stage: In the fall issue of PF you will read my extensive review of the Sun Audio of Japan's very deluxe and refined push/pull 300B which uses a transformer phase splitter. This 20 watt amplifier, which uses all Tamura transformers, is one of the most refined push/pull amplifiers I have ever heard, and I love it. Hello out there...300B push/pull is being completely ignored in America, and at this level of refinement it is a exciting new form of eroticism.

For this test I have modified the Sun's ( soldered four wires...big deal) so that I can attach my independent adjustable tube regulators to the input and output stage so I can hear, again, optimized operation of the different brands of 300Bs. The advantage of a push/pull amplifier, of this quality, is that it has more coherent top to bottom dynamics and is lower in overall distortion than a single-ended circuit. While this amplifier doesn't have the glorious midrange of single-ended circuits, but it does have a more coherent bottom end and a very uniform wavefront dynamic that I wish single-ended amplifiers had. The Sun amps don't have the "normal" discombobularity of those whopper pentode push/pull amplifiers because they uses a Tamura transformer phase splitter. I am extremely impressed by this amplifier and it offers a completely different, and fascinating vision of 300B's aptitudes, which is important in any 300B evaluation. That's right boys and girls push/pull 300Bs are way cool, and give us another insight into the aptitudes of this tube that single-ended circuits can reveal.

(1) Mr., Normal Gifted Listener SET Amp: I am using Solo Electronics $1,750 stereo 300B single-ended amplifier because it is very "normal" and is very affordable. There is nothing adjustable on this amplifier (it is completely stock) and the question is..... does it reveal the big differences in the different brands of 300Bs? This is the nitty gritty of this test...at what level of amplifier quality does the differences in tubes become significant, or does it really make sense to buy $300 tubes for a $1,750 amplifier?

(3) David Berning's 300 B SET ZOTL: This is the most transparent and fastest five watt amplifier in the world because there are no capacitors or inductors from input to output. There is nothing better at revealing the nascent nature of each 300B brand. This is the amp camp for frequency extremes, transient response and horizon like wideness and midrange whole-osity... but ...the amp has been permanently set at one voltage for Western Electric 300Bs, which may not optimal for other tubes. This is, again, the world's only direct coupled front input to output single-ended amplifier where there is nothing between the output tube and driver. This amplifier also has a minus 120 db noise floor, which is completely quiet spooky, and has fully regulated power supplies. There is a paradox implicit here: this is still a hand made amplifier...maybe ten or twenty have been made so far, and that means my conclusions about tubes with this amplifier are not yet relevant for the masses...but....consider this ZOTL circuit the ultimate astronomic telescope into deep directly heated triode space....and you, the readers of PF deserve this level of seriousness.

SPEAKERS:

TANNOY WESTMINSTER ROYALS: I am using these speakers, which I finally moved into my home (with the aid of a hydraulic lift and four moving men), with both the Marchand tube crossover and custom made passive crossovers.

In critical testing like this it is absolutely essential to eliminate the "passive crossover fog" that is inherent in all dynamic speakers. Let me say this more forcefully....in evaluating amplifiers, to know their true nature, they must be experienced directly connected to the driver...without the impediments of the passive crossover. This is the only time you are listening to the amplifier and not a bunch of inductors and capacitors. This means that I have to use a separate amplifier on the woofer and tweeters, and because I do not have four of each amplifier I have connected two of the same amplifier to one speaker and listen in mono, and then I try two of the same amplifiers only on the woofers and then only on the tweeters. This is a valuable procedure because it gives me a much better sense of how each brand of tube does below and above 1 KHZ, and thereby permits me to get a better sense of their individual strengths and weaknesses. Is it possible that there are ideal 300B woofer and 300B tweeter tubes? Am I developing a new optimal 300B strategy? Does a bear sh!t in the woods after eating a pizza with pepperoni?

It would be absurd NOT to test these tubes with a passive crossover because, you the gifted listeners of America, have not yet made the ultimate commitment to triode knowledge and still use passive crossovers....so I have also constructed my own hot rod passive crossovers so that all of the series inductors..the inductors that a signal passes through are AlphaCore Silver foil inductors and all of the parallel inductors are AlphaCore copper foil inductors. The capacitor in series with the tweeter, which makes up the 6db/first order filter is made up of a blend four different brands of polystyrene and polypropylene capacitors that I have blended for optimal tone and transparency. The capacitors used in the 12 db woofer network are Hovland Music caps. After years of experimenting with passive crossovers I have concluded, as you know, that while it is impossible for a speaker manufacturer to put ultra-high quality parts in their crossovers because of cost, that doesn't mean that we can't upgrade them...it is very easy.

But let me be clear about this...I loose, you loose about 30% of the glorious directly heated triode bliss when using passive crossovers.

The Tannoys with their Alcomax magnets and 100db efficiency present a single problem for me...I can't make the amplifiers clip in my home without having the police come to my door, and cause ear damage. I speculate that I am always listening to these tubes in their optimal operating region of below one watt. On the other hand there is no other speaker that will reveal the dynamic character of different brands of 300Bs and their tonal refinement and complexity. Let me assure you that I can not think of any other speaker, other than the Sunlight Engineering 308, that can reveal the vast differences between these different brands.

B&W CDE1: These are $1100 a pair mini-monitors that I use to determine how the significant difference in these tubes translate into a relatively normal speaker.

SUNLIGHT ENGINEERING 308 NOT: I am in the process of designing new cabinets for these 55 pound drivers that are worthy of them, which is not an easy task. I am considering some of the secret construction techniques that King Tut used to build his pyramids, and other eccentric monumental notions, that will shock and delight you all, and be applicable to your own speaker building projects.

All cabling, interconnects including wiring within the passive crossovers is AlphaCore silver foil.

PREAMP: I use the new Marchand passive stepped attenuator preamp because... there is nothing in it to distort the aural matrix. With this unit the signal is passing through two resistors before it enters the Marchand tube crossover.

MARCHAND TUBE CROSSOVER: My articles about this unit tell the story. The only modification I have made to this unit is to change the stock coupling caps to polystyrene units.

SOURCE MATERIAL: I use original master DAT tapes and master CDRs produced at Ambient recording studio as the ultimate "pure" digital input. I am sorry I can't get the Ampex tube tape recorder in my home. I do not have my vinyl system set up in my living room now, but hope to rekindle my VINYLMANIA soon.

ACCESSORIES: These are absolutely essential for any critical evaluation, and I don't understand why other audio critics don't list theirs: Jasmine incense, slivers of mango, peeled grapes, hot coconut oil, masseuse, cigars, silk kimono, candles, whips, chains, handcuffs, Vibrapods, VansEvers AC line cords, red M&Ms, round toothpicks, and Godiva Truffles.

CAVEAT EMPTOR: All reviewing of audio equipment to a great extent is completely absurd, because it is all about perception, emotion and imagination. While there is a world wide consensus about the erot!c possibilities of 300Bs, it should be obvious that what turns one man on, puts another to sleep.

IN SUMMARY: I am a totally freaked out 300B maniac just doing my job...shredding the perimeter of triode knowledge, testing the different 300B brands in four different types of amplifiers as a way of determining the deep and subtle nature of their differences. I am listening to these amplifiers with their output stages directly connected to the speaker's drivers and with passive crossovers, and using digital master tapes and CDRs as a source material. "

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 226
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger: I do not understand a single thing you posted - but, sir, I shall defend to the death your right to say it! (so there!)

More anon. . .
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1888
Registered: Dec-03
I just thought it was an interesting reading for anyone who has any
knowlage or has done any research on the 300b triode "flea power amps"

As most of the time they are about 7 watts a channel.

Not only is this testing of the difference in 300b tubes
"and that voltages make a difference" But also giving an alternative,
(300b push pull 20 watt or so amps) saying they may be a nice alternative.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 522
Registered: Apr-04
Larry,

In reading through Kegger's post, it seems possible that it came from one of the adult sites showing up on CC bills.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 228
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia: yep, that's where it was - CCbills.com - so, what does that tell us? That somebody's hacking into our accounts through this forum?
I'm too dumb to understand all of this- but mad about it, just the same!

Thanks for the insights - as always.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 523
Registered: Apr-04
LR,

Uh, that was a joke. :-) Read Kegger's post to see what I mean. Here's a few excerpts to get you started:

....directly heated triode eroticism...Think of a regulated power supply as making love without a condum....whopper pentode push/pull .... That's right boys and girls push/pull..... my own hot rod....shock and delight you.... coupling caps....a world wide consensus about the erot!c possibilities....ACCESSORIES: ....Jasmine incense, slivers of mango, peeled grapes, hot coconut oil, masseuse, cigars, silk kimono, candles, whips, chains, handcuffs, Vibrapods, VansEvers AC line cords, red M&Ms, round toothpicks, and Godiva Truffles....what turns one man on....I love it..... it is a exciting new form of eroticism.

I never realized tube amps could be so exciting. LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 359
Registered: Mar-04
Ghia,
LOL!! I think Kegger has been spending far too much time alone with his tubes. Quick start talking Fantasy Football with him before we lose him for good!!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 161
Registered: Jun-04
KARMA SUTRA, intimate, harem, eroticism, push/pull

C'mon, Larry, you knew what Kegger was talking about, didn't ya? LOL! my friend.

John, re: Transcending Hi-Fi -(The 'Other Side'). I am at a loss for words. So am I, so am I.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 524
Registered: Apr-04
LR,

Is this what Mer had in mind when she visualized me?



Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 229
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia: no, Mer says you've got a smaller mouth!
And - uh - I had not even read Kegger's posting, so I was a bit confused. (as usual)
But the CC billing was correct. Sigh.
Sorry - when I see a long posting that starts out with "tubes," I just scroll on by and don't bother with it - so I obviously failed to "get it" with the posting. Just not a true audiophile, I guess. . .
Sorry - just not a good day for humor for me - one friend is dying of Lou Gehrig's disease, and another called, crying - just diagnosed with breast cancer. Sigh. It happens - often - as one gets older.
Tomorrow will be a better day. . .I think.

More anon . . .
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Kegger - Actually I found your post kind of interesting.


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1890
Registered: Dec-03
Jan I mean this sincererly:

Did you find it interesting as to how things were phrased
or the point about voltages or the 300b push/pull?

Or something else?

I'm intrigued by the 300b push pull myself!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2547
Registered: Dec-03
One of the HiFi News reviewers seems to get a bit heated about tubes, too. For me, this thread has now taken quite an unexpected turn on the subject of what we expect from hifi. I'd never thought of that.

I agree with Sem!
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1156
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

I agree the other thread is not appropriate for venting our ire, but it was you who decided to fuel the fire and fan the flames elswhere.

I really feel there is no point in carrying on with this discussion here or anywhere else as nothing Kegger and I can say will alter your position or perception. Your continual misrepresentative referrals of "arrogant" or "talking down to" are imo, an affront to our character if simply because you keep insisting were we referring to the points you were making instead of how you were making them :- John A still cannot understand this, he persists in rambling on about the subject matter of which is totally irrelevent.

If you are quite happy to admit that you are of an arrogant and condescending nature then any further interaction is futile. Animosity was not the intention only the truth to which most here seem quite indifferent.

For the sake of unity and for maintaining the fine comraderie among the 'Old Dogs' I shall refrain from criticising, commenting or having an opinion. I'll just be (zen) and may occassionaly pop in to look around and say hi, because getting a point across at times, is as difficult as trying to coax a haemophiliac to climb over a barbed wire fence.

Larry,

I'm sorry about your friends - I inderstand - we lost another aunt last week. And you're right, as we age these things become an all too familiar occurrence.


All the best.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Rantz - You will not like this response, but, I honestly have no idea what this has been about. Your last few posts have taken me by suprise at how you interpreted my words. And I'm not even sure what words you have objected to.
If you feel you can no longer tolerate what you read into my posts I cannot stop you from doing whatever you think is best for Rantz.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Kegger - Of course I found it interesting. But this has been a busy night for me and I got to it about 1:30 in the morning. I cruised through it and got most of the points. It's filed away with things I've read today on aluminum voice coils, Vitamin C, Ghosts, compressors, microphones, the elctions in the Ukraine, etc., etc., etc.!!!
I'll get back to it when I have more time to read it for all that's in it. It is a good representation of the passion some people have for aduio, way overboard for most people but they see a path to something better than what's there already. They may wander and get a litle too much solder fumes up their nose but they have a passion.

My question for you is; what are you most interested in? The 300B or using a triode in a push-pull layout? Why not just go SET? What's a few watts when your speakers are effficient?
As the writer states he's using the 300B at under 1 watt.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

I don't know if the thread is ready for a new direction, sort of, but, I have question I would like to get responses to.

If we can agree there is a communication that occurs during a live recording session (which I obviously do believe); what are the clues we, as listeners, pick up on that informs us this was happening during the ercording session? In other words, what are you hearing on a recording where the artists really clicked and made something special happen as it was caught on tape? Conversely, can you say if those clues aren't there, the recording session lacked something?


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Hey, Guys and Gals, I've been at this day for 22 hours now. I've been doing this and that, getting things done and checking the forum every now and again. The stuff we all do. I'm going to try to get a few hours sleep in a minute but I wanted to make one last post before I go.

It seems I've upset a few people on the forum and they have had some words for me; it appears Rantz may be going away for a while over what has happened. Like I said in my earlier post, I really don't know what brought all this on. Being the arrogant SOB that I am, I really don't care either. Not that I'm out to make people mad or raise your blood pressure. I just don't care. Would you like to know why? 'Cause this is a frickin' audio forum!!!!!!!!! We talk about HiFi. How many channels sound best to us!!! Do you know how many people are going to care about what we said or who came and went from this forum in 100 years? More to the point, how many Iraqis will be brought to democracy by what we say here? How many children will we save from starvation? NADA! ZIP! ZERO! NOT A ONE!!!


Not one stinkin' one.


Everybody gets offended by something they percieve as a slight. Everybody wants an apology. WHO THE F**K CARES? Get over it all. Get some perspective. Get a life. There are more important things going on in this world. This is small potatoes, guys. Take a pill and count to ten.

Sorry if the upset anyone.

Goodnight.


 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 525
Registered: Apr-04
Well, it looks like the Old Dogs reunion tour is off.

Guys, I'm not really sure what is going on here. In the past few days, when Jan or John prefaced a point with a "I'm not trying to be arrogant..." etc, I was always "hearing" it being made in jest. Apparently, this isn't the case with everyone.

MR, I don't think anyone here wants to see you go or not contribute. We all enjoy your posts and your terrific wit and humor. But, I have to admit, the tone of your posts in recent weeks has been worrisome. There seems to be an uncharacteristic belligerence especially towards Jan and John. At first, I decided you had a close enough friendship with them that this was just good-natured disagreement that each involved understood. But, now it seems to be something much deeper and more disturbing.

I don't want to come across as always defending Jan or John but, frankly, I don't understand what is driving your discontentment. No one has tried to suppress anyone else's opinion nor does it appear that anyone is belittling anyone else. The tone of how J&J deliver their opinions doesn't appear to be grieveous either (at least most of the time). As a benchmark, if you want an example of what I consider to be arrogant or condescending, read any one or all of the posts from Classical1. Maybe there is something going on in a different thread that I don't follow that's driving this. There also seems to be off-forum communication via email and phone that some of the members engage in so maybe something is happening there to which I'm not privy that might alter my perspective about what is going on here.

MR, as I've already expressed, I hope you will continue to participate in the forum. And, I hope you are ok.

LR, I'm very sorry to hear about your friends. It is realities and challenges such as those that put things like audio and forums into their proper perspectives. All the best to you and yours.

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1898
Registered: Dec-03
unfortunatly mr rantz is not the only one to feel this way.

I just choose not to put mine out there for everyone as he did.

And I'm going to take a little break myself also as I feel the need to
back off a bit. "for several reasons" I'll be in from time to time!


Anyways carry on with your discussions I'll be listening.

God bless all!
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 232
Registered: Oct-04
G-day from Swampville (yawn) - oh, dear, guess I've got to read through another long list of counter-punches. Sigh. OK. . .

Ghia and MR - first. Thank you both for you kind words. It just gets kinda weird, having more and more friends and relatives getting sick or dying, and here I sit with relative comfort and health.
Yes, Ghia, "perspective" good points - as I have expected from you on many occasions.

A few points, if you please:
Yes, Ghia is right. Classical 1 proved to be a snob - and arrogant. Especially in his private messages to me. Sigh. Gone sailing. . . good.
I neither can nor will get in between John/Jan and Kegger/MR. I see rather painful personality clashes here, and for whatever reasons, our forum is breaking down because of that.
Oh, I know that I have had my own share of irrational postings and actions - and am rather embarrassed about them on hindsight.
We all might be better off if we, to paraphrase, could "see ourselves as others see us."
There are those on this forum who love to dissemble, argue, debate - ad nauseum. There are others who are happier with idea-exchanges, "news" of each other, and a continued conversation that keeps us in touch and feeling that somebody else "out there" cares.
You are all strong individuals, and as such have definite ideas and "stands." But I read too many times that one person's "stand" is an insult to the other person. At least a perceived insult.
I think Ghia has expressed my concern better than I could.
If I may try to condense just a bit: I find too many "Oh, yeah?" comments and challenges. Just my opinion, but that's what I read here.
I'm truly sorry about this - but haven't the foggiest idea of how to change it.
I hope that all of us take a big, deep breath and then ask ourselves - again - what we really want on this forum.
I've learned to respect each one of you - for different reasons, certainly.
From now on, I'm going to read each posting a half-dozen times before I even try to respond. Maybe a little space and time will give my responses a more balanced tone (see? there's that HiFi talk again! GRIN) to my comments.

Meanwhile - today is a better day.

Respectfully. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 233
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia: Soooo - in re-reading the above postings, I find that Jan has "had it" and has told his current nemeses to shut up - and both MR and Kegger say they're dissing him and are leaving.

Yo - I think this is going well, don't you, Ghia?

Sigh.


Sigh.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1900
Registered: Dec-03
Larry not leaving just stepping back a bit.

and for other reasons beyond the obvious.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 234
Registered: Oct-04
Kegger: OK, my friend - you've got a lot more info on this than I have. For whatever, you've given me good advice and some good chuckles, and I hope that you don't step back too far. At least "stepping back" sounds less ominous than my take on your comment as "leaving," which would seem to be more permanent - and WHICH I WILL NOT ACCEPT! (triple grin here, OK?)

Sigh - I just don't know what to say, other than I hope "the gang" gets back on track.

I've admitted my dumb mistakes on this forum, and hope that everybody who reads this will take some time to reassess their own attitudes.

More anon. . .

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 526
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger, I'm sorry. It would appear that I'm the one who is clueless here. Hopefully, my "rant" the other day as well as my joking about the tube post didn't contribute to your decision. It's a shame that this forum seems to have broken down into another division. There's no relief from divisions is there? Rich vs poor, smart vs dumb, red states vs blue states, stereo vs MC, man vs woman, cat vs dog, etc, etc, etc. It's enough to make one want to drop out of society completely.

I think I'll move along myself. Thanks to all of you for the advice and humor and lessons. It's been a pleasure.

p.s. LR, just so you don't think I was ignoring you, I have shoulder length, light brown hair, and definitely a temper...but I don't think it's a "short" one. I interpret that as one that could go off at the slightest provocation. Mine is a "simmering" one where reactions are suppressed but, once it blows, everyone knows. But, then I usually get over it pretty quickly. Body build....more Bridget Jones than Ally McBeal. Feminine hands? Nah, my hands have too many cat scratches, wrench dings, box cutter scars, etc to be considered feminine. Did Mer visualize the diamond nose stud? :-)

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 527
Registered: Apr-04
LR,

Looks like we crossed posts. Your 10:06 post is excellent. Had I read it before I posted my last one, I may have changed my mind about what I was composing.

What can we do to bring peace to the forum and make everyone feel welcome? Do MR and Kegger know that their presence helps define the forum - even when things are a little prickly between the participants? You take away any aspect of it and it is weakened. And, LR, you are right, we have to respect one another.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1901
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia and other please don't breakup on account of a few dogs barkin!

I just feel the need to strech my legs a little.
I'm sure I'll be back in full force soon.
Just need to get away a little.

In the meantime you guy's and gals need to keep the house together, I hope.
 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 235
Registered: Oct-04
Ghia: Does this mean you are NOT leaving? Oh, please don't do that! I shall shed real tears if you do - so I hope your "catch-up" posting means that you'll be here when I need some cat-scratched hands to guide me through the mazes of audio treachery!
Seems like this forum is shattering - and frankly it frightens me.
Thanks for your "true" description, Ghia. As you can well imagine, Mer was only doing a "for fun" thang - she often does stuff like that on a whim. Would rather that you have cat-scratched hands, anyway - you oughta see all the scars on Mer's artist-hands! fortunately, mine are lily-white, perfect, and with immaculate nail-finish.
(and if you believe that - I've got this great land down here to sell you - cheap. Comes with its own set of waders, BTW)

More anon. . . and hope you're here to read it!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 664
Registered: Dec-03
Can someone please try to explain WHAT IS GOING ON HERE? I do my best to try and follow the posts on the forum, and I must be missing something. Am I the dumbest SOB on the planet? I feel like one. So help me out here. You can respond either on the forum or e-mail.

I am really upset at what I am reading here.




Well Larry....................looks like it's you and me.......................what kind of subwoofer cable did you say you had?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ojophile

ON

Post Number: 162
Registered: Jun-04
I'm a bit bothered by the recent posts on both the "Old Dogs" and "Transcending Hi-Fi" threads from the regular posters. The latter is a bit hard to follow but at the same time, entertaining if only to take into account the philosophical tussle on solipsism, perception of reality, and the like.

Bothered because I am now reluctant to express my views on a topic that I think I know something about, lest I be construed in a different, negative light. I know only a handful of topics, but I know them well enough to share with anyone who is willing to listen. When I wrote that imaginary recording session of the Konspiracy Theory, I was hoping that my little allegory would illustrate how far the members of this forum have come a long way with regards to relationships and camaraderie, albeit on-line and long-distance.

Larry, you summed it up very well in two words, "Oh, yeah?" I can only wish the rebuttal could have been phrased as, "I beg to differ but..." ; it would have made a big difference. There are enough hostilities going on around the world; our little differences of opinion should not be reason enough to add to the world's long list of wars. For those topics that have reached an impasse, I think it would be best to leave them alone.

I appreciate Jan's efforts to introduce new topics ("Compression" being the latest) to this "old dogs" thread. I learn a lot from reading these materials and people's reactions to them, while keeping an impersonal view of the content and manner in which they were written. I think that's important; otherwise, one will deprive the rest of this forum with valuable information if one becomes reluctant to share it for fear of being persecuted by readers.

The "Discoveries" thread is a rich territory of unexplored possibilities. Perhaps, if I may suggest, we could all channel some of our creative ideas and valuable listening and viewing (audio/video) experiences there and benefit in the process. At the same time, it would allow some of us to cool their heels and return with a fresh perspective. There is already an informal exchange of recommendations and suggestions on that thread regarding DVD, DVD-A, and CD discoveries --- "finds", if you will. Who knows, the "Discoveries" thread may bring about some détente?

There's one valuable lesson that I've learned since I started corresponding with other people along time ago: what you write will come back to haunt you.

====================================

Larry, my sympathies go to you and your friends' families. Same here; I also learned about a former co-worker's wife in a "terminal" phase --- so young, so sad. We can only pray for her and hope for a miracle.

===================

"You can check out anytime you like,
But you can never leave"


Cheers!
Don

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Rick - Quite good. Please don't write me off, I've got an interest in the topics that are on the table ... mostly. My early morning/late night post wasn't meant to tell anyone to kiss off. Just simply to reflect on why and how we all got together. And what that means in the scheme of things. I have exchanged more words with all of you than I have with a neighbor who has decided I did her wrong (and again I can see nothing that should cause that reaction; telling to some, I suppose). There are more important things than this forum to get upset about. I'm sure we all have friends we see and care about more than those on this forum. If you haven't had a turn of fortunes with a loved one, I wish that you go forever not knowing the sound of the words, "I have Cancer". If you have parents to talk to and children to hold, I hope you live the rest of your life never knowing the loneliness of not having them near. If you have a friend or family member in the military, I hope you can see them and touch them and hold them once again. If you have an Old Dog waiting for you every night when you arrive, I hope that tail always wags in anticipation, the affection it gives is unwavering.

If we accept each other as friends that get together to discuss HiFi, then we accept the faults and flaws of each other as friends also. I have no problem with anyone on this forum, past or present. We shall see what the future has in store for us, eh, Mr. Marley.
My preference is to continue as a group discussing things for which we all have a passion. Bringing to the forum whatever we, as individuals, feel is important enough to discuss.
I have no intention of making anyone uncomfortable, but, I am willing to write what I care to and let the fallout be amongst those who bring their own interpretation to what I write. For that is the ongoing problem as I see it. Interpretation. There is a limit to how much I control what you read into my posts. If my postings offends anyone, I can assure you that was not my intention. But if you repeatedly find yourself cursing me when you read my entries, I suggest you don't read them at all. The name of the sender is clearly marked at the top of the post for all to decide - yes - no!
Take what you will from my thoughts (but do not ascribe to them what is not there), I continue to look forward to what everyone, and I mean everyone, has to say.
But we are friends and family on an audio forum. Let's not have anyone sitting in the living room while the rest of us enjoy our meal.

Ghia and Larry - Didn't mean to slight anyone. Ghia, if you will send an email I will get some discs in the mail for you.

Kegger - If you care to discuss tubes with me I'll offer my thoughts on whatever I can.


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1902
Registered: Dec-03
I am not going to harbor any I'll will towards anyone!

Just feel the need to step back a little!

See yu all in a few, I hope!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 360
Registered: Mar-04
Hello?? Where'd everybody go? Hmmmmph, figures...The Old Dogs World Tour 2004 fizzles out before it even gets off the ground. I realize this "breakup" isn't on par with the Beatles, or even Waters/Gilmour for that matter, but come on....not even one gig? I guess hard heads and thin skins got the better of us, huh? Shame.

Oh, by the way, Phil Spector....remember him...? Don't forget, we have a contract signed. So on your way out please leave your slice in the jar on the table by the door. Remember, a contract's a contract. What?? You didn't expect me to pay him all by myself did you? Get your tuckus back over here and show me some green. Don't forget, I have two kids in college, let's be reasonable.

 

Silver Member
Username: Larry_r

Naples, FL

Post Number: 237
Registered: Oct-04
Thoughts while thinking:

Rick: uh, I DO have a sub cable - from Blue Jeans Cables - but NO sub to hook it to - yet. OK, I mean, you gotta prob-lum wid dat? (huge grin)

Don: sorry, my friend. After reading your post I think we need to talk about who is the better writer. Long evenings with music, some spirits, and a few nibbles would be fine. Sigh. Problem is, you'r way Up Dare, and I'm Down Heah!
IMPORTANT: you use the word "allegory." Is that anything like a chopped-up alligator? Hmm?

Jan: I was beginnning to worry about you after your all-caps rejoinder early this ayem. But your posting today was most reasonable, and I hope that we have all learned something from this big dust-up.
There are a lot of quite large egos out there. And they often get in the way, or hadn't y'all noticed?
The written word is fraught with pitfalls; understanding a writer's intent is not always easy. Which is why I pepper my postings with liddle (grin) markups whenever I say someting that I intend to be light-hearted or even funny. My humor - as Mer will quickly say - is often very wry and esoteric, and as such easily construed as a put-down or insult. Thus, the (grin) designations. Oh, I'd put in smiley-faces, but they tend to tick off people - a lot!

Ghia: The other day - when I totally mis-interpreted John A.s posting regarding thread headings - you posted that I must have slept on the couch the night before.
Actually, I had. Not for the reason you may infer, but because I'd rather seriously pulled my back out trying to dig up a large bush in the yard.
That night, I was in such pain that even double-doses of pain reliever did not help much. Thus, it was on the couch, with heating pad, so as not to keep Mer awake with my discomfort. You were quite right - and perhaps that pain had something to do with my ill-tempered remarks? Could be. At least it's a great excuse, eh? (GRIN)

Now - music-lovers - please see some postings on "discoveries" - especially Carlos Kleiber fans.

More anon. . .
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