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Archive through October 17, 2004

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


John - The Shostakovich Quartets are a Duetsche Grammmophone recording from (I think) 2000. They are live recordings by the Emerson String Quartet from the Aspen Music Festival. It includes all 15 quartets plus some additional pieces for quartet.
The recordings were recorded live because (according to the notes), "We have noticed the powerful effect that this music has upon audiences and, just as importantly, the effect that an entranced public's presence has upon our own performance. We have come to think of Shostakovich's Quartets as theater pieces, with the audience playing an active role. It therefore semed natural and even essential to include the public in the recording process."

"The audiences ...were asked to remain as quiet as possible ... any distracting sounds have, when possible, been edited out..."



Well, so much for audience participation!



Fifty pages of liner notes.
The number is 289 463 284-2 (G H5).
The sound of the instruments is good though the stereo quality, for what should be a simple project, seems to be less than I expected.



 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 72
Registered: Jun-04
"Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
Yoo-hoooo...."

Ah, John Lennon, why did you have to die so soon?

(John A / My Rantz, please don't let this "Vivid" thing divide you further. It's just a topic. Let's move on. Raise your glasses, gentlemen, and cheers!)

This Vivid product must be evil! It must be exorcised! Just kidding.

Really, let's move back to the debate over 2-channel stereo and multi-surround. After all, as My Rantz has reminded us, that's the original intent of this thread, isn't it?

I only have 3 DVD-A's so far because of limited selections, prohibitive prices, and an uncertainty on my part to buy more. Here's what I have:

Machine Head - Deep Purple
Chicago II - Chicago
Chicago V - Chicago

All have been remastered into 5.1 very well and present a wider soundstage. The "muddy" sound that marred the LP and CD versions of "Chicago II" is gone at last.

But do I appreciate the clearer, more expansive detail? Do I need to hear the more forward sound of the brass section on the Chicago tracks? Maybe. We all have different listening preferences and expectations. To me, what matters most is that there is no added coloration to the tone of a musical instrument when reproduced and sent to my speakers. In other words, while I appreciate the enhanced clarity of the organ tracks by Jon Lord on "Lazy" on the Machine Head DVD-A, the added sonic value is not in leaps and bounds. That's only my opinion, and a subjective one at that. I have always enjoyed the musical content of these three DVD-A's in their earlier formats: LP, cassette and CD.

Am I content with 2-channel stereo then? The answer is yes, from a musical point of view. Yes, from a sonic perspective, given the growing selection of "remastered" CD's.

Will I pursue the high-rez, multi-channel sound? Yes, but only to the extent where the remastering brings out musical detail that was hitherto buried in the polyphony of tones. So, to me, that applies more to ensemble music (performed by septets, sextets, big bands, orchestras, etc.), because that's where so much detail tends to get lost because of the limitations of the LP and the CD formats. If the rematering efforts only serve to enhance the ambience, then I think I'm content with the improved sound that remastered CDs offer. Musically, that is.

Am I making sense? Just shoot me down if you want. Let me put on my flak jacket first.

OK, I'm ready. Fire.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 73
Registered: Jun-04
"...particularly when you are all to (sic) slow to see I'm right".

A bit arrogant, isn't it?

Let's just try to respect each other's views and each other's capacity to understand and react to opinions expressed herein.

"Imagine all the people
Living life in peace
Yoo-hoooo...."


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Rantz - You're right about the right here in the south. But I came from the south part of the north and so I came from a place that was more left than right and found, when I got right down here, that what I thought was right wasn't even right close to being right and so the left side of my brain had to adjust a bit to the right side (which left me with a terrible headache to this day) and I found that what I thought was right wasn't even left down here. That was never so true as when the right took what they felt was rightfully theirs and left many with down right nothing. Then the right decided they wanted more right and less left and started taking the left away from the where the right wanted to be. That left the left rightfully upset so they left the state for awhile. Then when they said all right and came back the left that is right above the left in the lower part of the left/right thing decide they would go to the left and then they left for awhile. After some time being to the left the left said all right let's see if we can get this right. They came back right away but the right really wished to be left alone. They took what, again, they said was rightfully the rights' and left the left with little of nothing, again. The left said that ain't right and started to gather what was left and see if they couldn't make things right again. Right now we are left with a right nasty governor that left his heart in the trash waiting to get his share of what wasn't right for him to leave to the left. Even some of the right are saying he's not right and that he's left those that rightfully need some of what's left to get themselves right. So left is right and the right is more right in Texas but I'm to the left of most of what I find is right down here, naturally, and think that what the right feels is right isn't right at all. I guess that means most everyone thinks they are right whether they are right or not. Which if you're right but not right does that leave you to the left or just left somewhere?













Now does anyone want to discuss copying CD's?











 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 872
Registered: Aug-04
Bang!

Ojo,

Thanks, I've already decided I'm through trying to convince John that the Vivid can't alter the encoded data. After all, the data is on a layer beneath a protective coating and any improvement is only through optic enhancement. See, like John, I had to get my bit in again.

As far as Hi-rez surround goes, I now have about 13 DVD-A's and 10 SACD's. Only a few are disappointing. Some are exceptional. Some of my redbook cd's are excellent also. I can live with both - happily. Prices here for hi-rez are about the same for normal cd's with the exception of a few; like Steely Dan's Gaucho SACD - cost me about $5.00 more than usual for this 38 minutes of audio ecstasy - would have paid more if necessary!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"A bit arrogant, isn't it?"

Sir, I'll have you know, I will let you know when I'm being ARROGANT!!! I challenge you to a duel. Meet me at dawn.




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1642
Registered: Dec-03
jan that left me wondering, could that be right?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


You mean what is right above or what I just left?



 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 874
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

BRAVO! (Sound of applause and chairs moving to the standing ovation)

But, you left something out, right? Is it right for those who wish to be left? And if no one's left, is anyone right? Well, then everyone would be right and where would that leave John?

Anyhow, it's 3.am - again!

I'd try those jammies with the footsies again, except it's getting too hot for them now. I wonder if I woke Mrs Rantz up she might read me a story.

'night all


'night Johnboy :-)

 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1643
Registered: Dec-03
Jan I'm not sure now, I was, right when i left it though!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 561
Registered: Dec-03
Some of us are RIGHT!

You kids should be ashamed of yourselves. I leave you alone for for a day and look at what happens. You are bickering and being mean to each other.

Now, you all say you're sorry, give a big group hug, and take a time out.

NOW GO TO YOUR ROOMS AND LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC!


PS That's an order! LOL.....................
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2276
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

I misunderstood. Where I come from, "glass of water" does not qualify as "a drink". Sorry. My mistake. Now, what'll it be.....?

Jan,

Re Toshiba SACD player, now you're talking. My local dealer has a DVD-V and DVD-A player "own brand" (called "Argon" for some strange reason) for less than about $100 equiv. I saw another "own brand" (I forget what that was called) that looked much the same at a hobby shop, for about $60 equivalent. The battery of RCA sockets on the back would cost more than that if you bought them separately. Who knows of they are not both an NAD T533 under the hood?

I too would have bought that Shostakovich of the strength of the blurb. I bought a Beethoven LP set of the Emerson quartet once, on RCA, I think. The performance was fine, but the recording was so close-miked you could hear every one of them breathing, all the way through. When one of them swallowed or cleared his throat, it was louder than the music. I've got lots of DG LPs and CDs and have never cared for the sound. If I were in DG I'd sack the "Tonmeister". Seems to me the last person you'd give the miking and mixing to is someone who has a deep knowledge and love for the music.

"Am I the only one who listens in stereo?" No, not at all. I do it all the time. Stereo is great.

I am getting behind. I will come back and read the rest of the more recent posts. Larry, if that really is you, and it reads like it, welcome back. Really.

Quickies

MR,

I've already decided I'm through trying to convince John that the Vivid can't alter the encoded data.

I know it can't. I was honestly not even once defending that position. My view is, since it can't do that, how, then, can it work? I was writing about making copy from the "enhanced" playback.... Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not? If "yes", then CD is no way to store digital data, because copies you make are different from the original. If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....? I, too, see I have failed to explain what I mean; I will go away and think about it, before the nun with the ruler comes back.....

Ojo's post will require further thought, anyway.

But I read "raise your glasses" and I'll drink to that.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 74
Registered: Jun-04
"Meet me at dawn."

Jan, which time zone?

Seriously, I joined this forum for the sole purpose of learning from people like you and hopefully, be able to contribute a little every now and then.

But you know what, sometimes I have to read and re-read some of your posts because occasionally, I'm one of those who are too slow to understand or follow one's ideas. Call it stup***ty, but I'll take it for what is.

Let's move on, bro. Here's a toast to you.




 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"Is it right for those who wish to be left?"

Oh, my poor Rantz! Your are so right you are wrong. It is not left to choice. Lefts are born that way. (Not a word from Lynne Cheney, hear?!) Glad I could set you right.



*******


"Who knows of they are not both an NAD T533 under the hood?"



I don't know about the players you have seen, but the Toshiba's shipping weight is a mere 7 lbs. It is costing me $6 to get one shipped here. At that weight they could have just folded it up like an airplane and thrown it to me. I'll let you know. Get ready for the J. Vigne epic review. Now is it air or aire when I'm writing a high class review?



************



"Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not?"



Yes, because of less error correction.




"If "yes", then CD is no way to store digital data, because copies you make are different from the original."



And your point is?




" If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....?"
































I got nothin'!



*********


"Jan, which time zone?"



Greenwich Mean of course.



" I have to read and re-read some of your posts ...."



You too?






**********







"NOW GO TO YOUR ROOMS AND LISTEN TO SOME MUSIC!"




Or what? NNNNYYYYAAAAAAHHHHHHH!!!!!!!










 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1644
Registered: Dec-03
Ojophile: I know quite often on this thread "and others"
it's tough to tell when someone is kidding. I have trouble a lot of times.

but when jan said this:

"I've heard that somewhere before. Except the version I had ended in, "particularly when you are all to slow to see I'm right". Oh, well, probably best left as is. "

I'm pretty sure it was meant jokingly!

but point well taken all the hash slinging can get out of hand
and make friends into enemies.

I for one am glad your with us.
and hope you can forgive some of us for getting out line sometimes.

but most if not all things are said in jest.
you can't take much to serious on this thread.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


I sir am deadly serious. I challenge you to a duel!




 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 562
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

You are not playing well with the other children. Did someone P*E*E* in your Cheerios today?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


AAAAGGGGGGHHHHHHH!!!!! I hope not, I thought the milk was yellow because of the nanner.



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 563
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

I do understand that your honor has been challenged, with you being a southern gentleman and all, but I don't think you can go around dueling with people any more.

Can we find an alternate challange?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1645
Registered: Dec-03
linguini noodle whiping?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 75
Registered: Jun-04
Dawn? Too early, my friend. I'd rather sleep in. BTW, did you use Pledge or Vivid to clean your pistols for tomorrow's duel?

Kegger, thanks for the advice. But I think this time I need a bullet-proof flak jacket. John A., you got one?



 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 76
Registered: Jun-04
New kick-*ss search engine

www.A9.com

It uses all search engines combined.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"did you use Pledge or Vivid to clean your pistols for tomorrow's duel?"


That I did, sir, that I did. And when we meet at the morow you shall be 1111000000--111110000!




 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 876
Registered: Aug-04
"Would the enhancement be burned in the copy, or not?"

Yes, because of less error correction.


Uh uh! Non mes amis! Vous ette tres - er - loco, oui?

Where does the enhanced playback come from? If you rub Vivid on the cd it only does something to the coating, Does not change the data - we are all agreed on that - a copy from the original will only copy the data. All the o's and 1's will get stored on a file then get tranferred onto the new disc.

If a treatment was put on the original and enhancement WAS evident, it was because of the optics in that machine reacting to a difference to the surface of the disc - on the coating.

Using the copied disc without the Vivid on the same machine cannot produce the same enhancement because the optic conditions have changed - no vivid on the disc - a difference again on the surface.

Same goes for playing the copied disc on any other piece of equipment. The optic conditions are different with each playback unit.

Now if you used a darn tape recorder well that's a different story isn't it?

So unless you fly over here with your little bottle of vivid and prove me wrong, I'm sticking to my theory which is the right theory and the only right theory and all you arrogant sons of lovely mothers who think you're right can keep stating your cases until you're blue in the face because quite frankly my dears I don't give a damn. And here I am left here being right - again.







Kidding Ojo :-)






And John A - here's a hug.








My, I can hardly get my arms around you.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 77
Registered: Jun-04
Sacre bleue! Omigod, now they're suggesting group hugs. What is this forum coming to?

1111000000--111110000

Invalid data. Abort. I, repeat, invalid data. Abort. Beeeeeep!




 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
(peek) Oh, oh - they're at it again. But wait, where did everybody go? Sigh. Better stay inside.(click)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


I feel soooooooooooooo tired. No duel, I'm going to shoot myself!



 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 878
Registered: Aug-04
J.V.

You won't do that. It's not right and you won't be left.

Okay, re the Vivid - and if there are no errors to be corrected? Remember, it was tried on new discs. And how would repaired errors enhance sound quality - error correction only substitutes missing or corrupt data.

And please, before any self extermination do go back to speaker maintenance and give me some of your expert advice instead of the usual cheek.
 

New member
Username: Note_blue

Post Number: 1
Registered: Oct-04
"Other than that it leads nowhere, it's really about nothing and everything"

My Rantz, isn't that the reason Seinfeld went on for far too long?

"And you are in the right place at the right time! "

Am I really? :-) Sheez, had I come sooner I could've been hit by a stray bullet! Or perhaps buried in mud (LOL!)


"...to debate the benefits of 2 channel stereo over the benefits of multi-channel hi-rez."

So why don't we go back there then? Sounds like an interesting topic to me.

Regards,

Note_Blue

(formerly Blue Note. I couldn't log in anymore as blue_note, blue note, Blue Note, etc. I had to re-register. Wonder why? Well, I'll leave that to the "digital data" experts. Hmmm... digital data, where have I heard that term before?)


 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 78
Registered: Jun-04
John A.,

"Ojo's post will require further thought, anyway."

While you're doing that, I read again your initial post on this thread, first of many archived discussions and the last line that you wrote was:

The answer to whether music sounds better in stereo is simple: it depends on the music.


Amen.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Rantz _ do you really want the error correction explained again? I'll do it if it will help you.



fBN - OK, you start, where do you want to go with this?



 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 879
Registered: Aug-04
"Rantz _ do you really want the error correction explained again?"

Got it the first time Jan, I still agree with me. Error correction helps to make the result sound/and or look as it should. Not enhanced. It is an event that occurs with or without magic potion so I don't buy it.

If your theory is correct (and I'm not saying your explanation of EC is wrong) then the machines that polish and buff the DVD discs should result in enhanced picture and sound. They don't- they only sound and look as they should. And in reference to your previous remark a while back, these disc polishers do much more than remove a kid's breakfast from the disc. The result looks like a shiny brand new disc.

Avagoodweekend
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2279
Registered: Dec-03
I have caught up, just a bit.

Will I pursue the high-rez, multi-channel sound? Yes, but only to the extent where the remastering brings out musical detail that was hitherto buried in the polyphony of tones

That is what it does, Ojo. And consider the benefits when it is not a re-mastering, but a multichannel recording in the first place.

Mrs A returned from town reporting no available stock of blank DVD-R discs, anywhere. Is there a huge and unexpected demand? I have used up the two that came with the computer. Just as an experiment, to see if it could be done, you understand....

Well, it is after dawn, GMT, and I hear no pistol shots. Or shot. That's a relief. I'd hate to see the demise of Jan. I am looking forward to his Toshiba DVD player review (it doesn't say whether it plays CDs - is that taken as read?). Apart from that, I think Jan is the only one who understands my argument about disc treatments. He puts it so well on with ' If "no", then where does the improvement in sound come from....?" ...... I got nothin'! '

I got my gal, I got my song;
Got heaven the whole day long.

"he Toshiba's shipping weight is a mere 7 lbs".... same as the T533. The plot thickens. If you can take it apart and photograph the insides, we could compare with my dissection of the T533. I can send my camera as an e-mail attachment.

"Now is it air or aire when I'm writing a high class review? " It depends on the music. In many cases, the appropriate word is luft.

MR,

If you rub Vivid on the cd it only does something to the coating, Does not change the data - we are all agreed on that - a copy from the original will only copy the data.

So how come the Vivid changes the data going into the DAC, which it must do if you hear any effect, but does not change the data going into the saved file, and to the disc copy? Remember the optical read-out has no idea what you are going to do with the data. It is either improved by polishing the disc, or it is not.

You were offered an explanation of "error correction" and I am not sure it was serious (I agree with Kegger, when is the leg being pulled, here....?). Just to increase the agony, I shall leap in. It is probably siesta time, Saturday, there in the sub-tropics, and about 2 a.m. in Texas.

Error correction

What with being hit with rulers an' all, I think I can understand the unhappy connotations of "error correction" for some of us here, no names, no pack-drill.

Here is a simple analogy.

The Southern Gentleman (SG) feels his honor is impuned by the New Yorker (NY), and challenges him to a duel, at dawn, on Greenwich common. (I know a good pub.... no, it isn't open at dawn).

"Sir, Pistols at 101000 paces". [Converter]

"Two (10) shots only?"

"Agreed, sir"

These are men of honor: each instructs his servant to load a brace (10) of pistols.

It is decided, by lot, that SG will shoot first.

SG takes aim, and fires. The ball passes NY's left ear, and NY is unscathed.

It is NY's turn. He takes aim, and fires. The pistol ball passes about a foot above SG's head. SG is unharmed.

It is SG's second shot. He takes aim, and fires. The ball passes NY's right ear.

Now, without error correction, NY has survived, unharmed. Being a gentleman, he fires into the air; the protagonists shake hands, and retire to the pub, by now open, to discuss Spendors and so forth, quite amicably.

However, with error correction, the trajectory of the two pistol shots from SG is averaged, and so NY is mortally wounded. Right between the eyes. SG, striken with grief, takes NY's second pistol, and turns it on himself.

I feel this tale illustrates the harm that can be done by such devices as error correction, and perhaps also up-sampling.

Concerning hugs, I thank you for the offer, MR, but feel inclined to wait until Ghia returns. This has nothing to do with your ingratitude over the offer of a drink.....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 29
Registered: Apr-04
Few months ago I found this forum and was surprised to discover intelligent, experienced and cooperative members that had a wide knowledge about Audio - Video and held interesting discussion about DVD-V, SACD, PCM, DVD-V music, operas and more.
I really do not know what happened but the main items in the forum now are politics, old jokes, dogs business, sausage manufacturing and paint fumes sniffing techniques.
As far as I know similar forums have a moderator that directs the forum to its main stream.
I believe that this forum is not only for English speaking countries born and graduates of Oxford Cambridge or Harvard universities. This massage board supposed to be an international audio discussion board and not a private club.

Larry R
Where are all the operaNutz? I think that you have now one more member from this forum
Did you survive the hurricanes?

Ghia
I was following with much interest your adventures in the multi channels fields to find out if we are having another revolution of the audio world as the stereo 50 years ago.
Unfortunately I was a little confused from your many experiments and also controversial conclusions. The NAD is sometimes for CD player and in other times for a surround receiver.
I have the impression that the real star of your systems is the old stereo MAC It does not surprise me. I think that most of the old stereo amplifiers were designed for pure music listening and many new surround receivers for movies effects.
What about operas or musicals watching? I still believe that stereo DVD -V combination is the best. To have the right impression I recommend you the opera "Porgy and Bess "of Gershwin on PCM stereo,( EMI Glyndebourne Opera 1993 ) I think John A will confirm it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 881
Registered: Aug-04
Okay everyone I tried. Now John A has declined my offer of a hug and still persists in character assassination by his insistance I was ingrateful over his offer of a drink even though I supplied ample proof that I wasn't.

That's it no more being My Rantz the Nice Guy.

Next topic: Should a male forum member also cross dress when giving an apologetic hug to a fellow male forum member to help appease his phobias?


 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 564
Registered: Dec-03
John,

A duel between southern gentleman and New Yorker?

Jan,

Did we have any unfinished business?

Asimo,

I always felt that a forum should be shaped by it's members to decide which direction it will go. The "Old Dogs" only ask for one small corner of the forum. Would you deny us this? We never said it was a private club, and any with an open mind and a view or opinion were encouraged to stay. Sir, if you find this thread offensive, or out of the norm then leave. If you care to stay, then by all means do so. Yes sometimes we're silly and other times serious, just like life. Or are you just an XXXX's and 0000's type of guy?

Rantz,

Go ahead, put on that lovely frock. Don't forget the lip gloss.



This is all getting much too tedious................................


Check please..............................










I'm..............................











outta......................................


















here!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 883
Registered: Aug-04
"Here is a simple analogy."

Well, I can't disagree with that!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 434
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

Stay tuned. I'm working on a response to you.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 435
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

Good to hear from you. I find the recent posts surrounding treatments and bits/bytes a little inane myself and, since I deal with that stuff at work, the last thing I want to do is get into the debate in my leisure time. The key is to let the conversation run its course as it will in due time. It usually works its way back to stereo/MC debate. Patience, my friend.

I can understand your confusion of what's going on with my experiments. Here's a breakdown of what I think may be going on:

1. Mac is the star as you have noted. So much of a star that it clearly, IMO, is the only choice I have for an amp from here on out. Even if that means sacrificing multichannel in the short term until I can save enough for MC Mac.

2. NAD amps are excellent. Just don't listen to a Mac and that perspective won't become debatable. I almost feel traitorous that the NAD T763 is on the verge of being put away.

3. NAD CD players are excellent. That is one constant in my testing. I preferred the NAD CD player over Denon's CD when paired with the NAD T763. When the Denon was paired with the T763, redbook CD's sounded like a processing filter had been applied compared to the NAD c541i which had a leaner, purer, more detailed sound. Paired with the NAD T763, the difference was clear to me and the NAD c541i, without question, was the preference. But, the difference between the NAD c541i and Denon was inaudible to me when paired with the Mac. I'm not sure why. They both had a natural musicality when paired with the Mac. In this scenario, I would be happy with either the NAD or Denon for redbook CD's.

4. As maddening and unpredictable as it is, MC results are entirely dependent on the recording, IMO. The past few days, I've been testing the Denon with the Mac with hi-res stereo recordings. If you have never heard the surround recordings, then the hi-res sounds great. But, the following patterns emerged in my testing:

- SACD recordings didn't seem to lose much when listening in stereo vs MC. Particularly, recordings such as Miles Davis, Bucky Pizzarelli, the SFSO/MTT Mahler symphonies. The one SACD recording that did lose value in stereo was Heart "Alive in Seattle". The surround mix on this SACD truly does give a "you are there" experience. In the stereo mix, it just sounds like you're listening to a live recording on a stereo system in your living room.

- DVD-A recordings seem to lose much more definition in stereo vs MC. This was especially evident in recordings such as the Eagles "Hotel California" and Beck "Sea Change" which benefit from the space provided by MC. In stereo, these recordings sounded compressed. The one DVD-A recording that did not lose value in stereo was Buena Vista Social Club which sounds great in either format.

5. Speakers. Paired with the NAD T763, I preferred the Monitor Audio GR10 speakers. And, at first listen, I preferred the MA's with the Mac too. But, in the past week, I've started leaning towards the B&W speakers with the Mac. My theory on this is the Mac offers a deeper soundstage (compared to T763) that the B&W's emphasize better than the MA's. The MA's have a wider range and a tighter bass/mid-range but the B&W's have a more open sound. Paired with the Mac, the B&W's offer a very natural sound that overcomes the MA's broader range and greater detail.

This is really going to suck if I have to replace all my speakers too. lol. We'll see what happens once I get to try out the Spendor speakers. BTW, Rick, I'm saving Van Morrison for that.

So, it should all be clear as mud right now. :-) My position is I still appreciate what MC has to offer but, if forced to chose between the two systems I have right now, the stereo Mac would be the clear choice for me. As it is, I will continue to use both systems but I see the Mac system getting the most use.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2281
Registered: Dec-03
Asimo,

Relax. No-one is excluded here, to my knowledge. You also miss your target. That is how confrontations begin. The rebuke you intended is experienced by those who did nothing to justify it, and wonder why they are your target. Their defence might be perceived, by you, as an attack. Your reply.... and so on.

If you are right about the private club, then I, for one, do not qualify. But I am sure it was a mistake. That's OK. We all make those.

I recommend you the opera "Porgy and Bess "of Gershwin on PCM stereo,( EMI Glyndebourne Opera 1993 ) I think John A will confirm it.

I do, unreservedly. The disc I have is 2001, but it is the same, and must be a re-issue. The notes say the performance is based on the 1986-7 Glyndebourne production, moved to Covent Garden in 1992, and the recording of that made in Shepperton, by EMI, immediately after, giving a bigger stage for effects, lighting etc. It is still the original cast, and the Glyndebourne Chorus. Also Simon Rattle, again. Also full marks to the director, Trevor Nunn. The casting is just amazing. The eventual and inevitable confrontation between Crown (Gregg Baker) and Porgy (Williard White) is just one of the most moving and frightening things I have seen - see "confrontation", above; both are defending themselves, and the things they believe in most of all. Everyone should see that production. And it fits perfectly with "stereo rules" even for DVD. I have the CD, too; it is nothing compared with the DVD, imho.

Just to air my prejudices (I think it is allowed), "Porgy" comes from the America I respect and admire so much. Try also "West Side Story". Unfortunately there is also "Hollywood Homicide" which we "watched" last night. Basically a celebration of what fun toys handguns are, plus a few car chases, and cripplingly obvious and unfunny jokes about the stupidity of people who have values of any kind, except money. MR says I get on my high horse from time to time, but I try to tell it like I see it. The comparison with Porgy gives the two ends of the scale, for me.

We have also rented "The Day After Tomorrow" which came out here the day before the day before yesterday; it is true. It has DTS sound and I am first going to tighten any loose screws on the sub, as a precaution. We shall have to decide whether to watch that or a copy (from N. America somewhere, from the language options and NTSC video) of Shrek 2. I keep asking where they get these things, but the tracks seem to be covered. I would honestly rather wait for the official release. Anyway, the ones who like it have already seen it at the cinema. Twice, I think. That's something.

If you would like to get political, Asimo, try That 'British Sound'? - I know from your previous posts that you have views on the original topic there, namely whether different countries produce audio components with characteristic sounds. My last post there was a serious attempt to apply a fire extinguisher after what I do think was an ill-judged remark of Jan's, who had perhaps forgotton that "This massage board supposed to be an international audio discussion board".

It is an international audio discussion board; and there is no membership qualification. That is what makes it so interesting, for me.

I leave space for someone else to choose which joke to make about the typo.....

MR,

I withdraw the offer unless you take off that wig.

Rick,

Please return soon. Cheers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 180
Registered: Jun-04
Ghia, I'm afraid I have to get into polemics here on point 4. Let's start with Eagles - Hotel California on DVD-A. I agree the m-ch mix is an outstanding expansion of the soundstage. It's not like having Eagles in your livingroom, but to take a flight to the studio location. But on the other hand, for an album like Queen - The Game I wouldn't say m-ch adds that much listening experience.

So, now I have run out of DVD-A examples (darn difficult to find'em over here). So I'll move over to SACD. I agree in this format m-ch does not add much for a Bob Dylan or Norah Jones album. But what about Pink Floyd and Peter Gabriel. For me, m-ch SACD gives me the pleasure to appreciate so many more details in complex music.

IMHO, m-ch has clear advantages in any format for some types of music (and listener preferences, of course).

Hasta pronto
AL
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2282
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

I missed your last post; mine therefore looks like an interruption. Apologies.

If you have not seen Porgy, take up Asimo's suggestion and get that recording. It is right on target for this thread; it is in stereo. I cannot imagine it being improved by more channels. You could listen with the Mac/B&W. If I recall correctly, Asimo has similar speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2283
Registered: Dec-03
AL,

Missed your post too. I was intending to reply to Ghia, not ignore you. Apologies. However, this illustrates my "lecture" to Asimo about unintended targets. Hope I do not have to explain further. I think Ojo could take over, after quoting John Lennon to us. I see the flak jacket fits fine.

All the best.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 436
Registered: Apr-04
AL,

I think we are saying the same thing. In my small collection of DVD-A/SACD discs, the testing seemed to indicate the DVD-A's were more affected by the downmix to stereo than the SACD's. Thanks for mentioning DSOTM. I had forgotten to test that one. Just now put it on. Accidentally had the redbook track playing. Then, switched it to the hi-res track in stereo. First, let me say Wow! The difference in the hi-res is immediately evident. Now, the question is how the stereo mix fares vs MC. Will report back.

JohnA,

No apologies, necessary. Thanks for the Porgy & Bess recommendation. Will add it to the list with the Rattle/Mahler DVD-A's. In fact, I think I'll do some shopping today to see if I can find both.

MR,

Speaking of politics and men in drag.....stay tuned.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 437
Registered: Apr-04
"Hey! hehehe....can I join the group hug?"



Upload
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"Error correction helps to make the result sound/and or look as it should. Not enhanced."

I think we're on the same page with what the treatments do to the disc but you are leaving out the most importatnt part of what they accomplish. If we take the Capitalist approach that creaing a product is meant to ehnance the monetary riches of the creator we can see the overall effect and what needs to be considered here in stark reality. Given a choice for how you will divert your $45 in resources to the resources of the product creator would you perfer to purchase "CD ENHANCER" or "cd just the same"?

********


"Error correction ...

Here is a simple analogy. "


John, your story is OK except for two things. First, you forget that I said the treatments also affected jitter reduction. With that and error corection SG gets him in the left eye on the first shot. Second, when I did the conversion it came out 40 paces. Forty paces at an average of two feet per step for each combatant comes to 80' @ or 160' total. John, here in Texas we shoot wild animals at ten feet away. You must have put this battle in the Greenwich common becausse you know that takes in to account the curvature of the Earth and we don't do that here in Texas where everything is flat. A sly trick but not one I can let you get away with.

********


"Okay everyone I tried. Now John A has declined my offer of a hug and still persists in character assassination by his insistance I was ingrateful over his offer of a drink even though I supplied ample proof that I wasn't.

That's it no more being My Rantz the Nice Guy."


I agree, challenge him to a duel!



"Next topic: Should a male forum member also cross dress when giving an apologetic hug to a fellow male forum member to help appease his phobias?"

















I got nothin'.







********

"John,

A duel between southern gentleman and New Yorker?

Jan,

Did we have any unfinished business?"


Don't worry about it, Rick. I think John was just making an alliter ... , analo ... , well, he was doing one of those "A" word things.


********


"Here's a breakdown of what I think may be going on ... "


Very good info as she writes ...


"Yada, Yada.



Yada, Yada.



Yada, yada."



And then she writes ...


" ... the Mac system getting the most use"



If you want to discuss 2 vs. 5.1/6.1/7.2/10.2 or whatever, I don't know if Ghia just stirred the zupa or put the frittata under the broiler to brown. But, hey, let's hear it for a twenty year old Mac.



***********



"Arnold Layne
Silver Member

Post Number: 180
Posted on Saturday, October 16, 2004 - 10:57 am"


Am I to gather you feel simple pieces of music that would normally be heard in a
"musicians are in front of me" performance have no additional benefit (on average) from the expansion to mc? And that those pieces that fall into a "Wow factor" can be improved by mc?

If so, what "details" are you appreciating in mc? Just that guitars are behind or to the side of you?






 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2285
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Your are not at all how I imagined you. Though your face seems familiar, somehow.

Jan,

Thank you. I was beginning to worry I had caused offence.

"John, here in Texas we shoot wild animals at ten feet away."

I chose the hypothetical protagonists with care, and I am sure they would each wish to give, and receive, a sporting chance. If the duel had been in Texas, and one of the duellers had been a wild animal (no, don't, it is too easy....) then two-and-a-half paces would be fine. I suppose it depends on the animal, though.

Hey, friend, you nearly brought back the Cold War over on that other thread. I could see the Bay of Pigs all over again. Then Kerry (yes I'd go for him; consider the alternative) throwing a blockade around a Carribean island, to prevent further import of pirated Melodiya recordings of Shostakovich.

Peace.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


The remark might have displeased some but I have some Meloydia recordings from the 60-70's (Kruschev era) that sound as if the thought police were in the studio when they were made. My apologies go out to any reading this forum who
prefer fascism.



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2286
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

You must have put this battle in the Greenwich common No, it was to simply the question of time zones, I thought that was one of your concerns. It is not at all flat, unlike Texas, in fact it is on a hill. It is smaller, too.

Ghia,

That Porgy and Bess is a DVD-V. Abolutely stunning sound, though. As Asimo says, LPCM.

Others, esp. Jan, not excluding Ghia, or anybody,

I notice that LPCM stereo is now alled "Dolby Stereo" on the re-issue, and have noticed this new terminology elsewhere. Ever the conspiricist, I wonder of that was part of the deal by which Dolby Labs Inc. endorse MLP for DVD-A. Little-guy Meridian and Big-guy Dolby join forces to defend themselves against DTS and SACD, sort of thing. Bit like Iraq, really. And DTS and SACD are about as closely allied as ObL and SH, which is not all. Sorry to be cryptic, I wish to avoid giving further offence. [Fails miserably].
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2287
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

..but I have some Meloydia recordings from the 60-70's (Kruschev era) that sound as if the thought police were in the studio when they were made.

But you have to admire the great lengths they went to in order to create the correct ambience for the recording.

None of us is exempt, Jan, certainly not you guys. Or us guys. Try String Qt. no. 8, written in the ruins of Dresden. Tease me about his portrayal of the the background throb of Lancasters and I'm "outa here", too.

Duh. It's about people, stoopid. Wonder if John Lennon and Dimitry Shostakovich ever met, and if they knew they were on the same side.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2288
Registered: Dec-03
Marc just sent me this picture of him and his girl, trying to decide on a pair of KEF 104/2s

Upload

[John Brett, The Long engagement, from ArtisticConsciousness without permission, but with thanks].
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
JV - suppose I do this? If you will send me your address - to wryte4u@comcast.net - I will send you a small bottle of Vivid - enough to coat maybe a dozen CDs. Free. If you will just go to the drug store and buy the following: a foam makeup applicator - they're round, about 3 inches in diameter - soft and spongy - and a roll of Kleenex Viva paper towels OR some VERY soft cotton clothes to buff.
That way, I won't be out here with Classical 1 (whatever happened to him - he hasn't e-mailed me) in claims of "better" sound with buffed and polished CDs. Is that a deal, or what?
Also - John A. - suppose I do this - take two CDs of music I know well, say one piano concerto and one chamber group - copy about 5 minutes or so of each onto Three (3) CD-R discs. Then, once copied, I leave one disc plain - coat the second with Pledge - and coat and buff the third one with Vivid. Then - I mark 0 (no treatment) P (Pledge) or V (Vivid) on the PLAYING side of the disc.
Now - with three discs for each of two pieces of music, I shuffle them around a bit - then give them to my wife, who also shuffles them around. As the markings are on the bottom, neither one of us knows which is which.
Then - I play the discs, and we both mark what we THINK it is, and our evaluation of the sound. After all three of each selection are played, we turn them over and check our scores against the disc markings.
We do this three times with each of the two pieces of music - then post ALL of our findings and comments on this forum.
Is that - to your way of thinking - a quasi-valid "double-blind" test? I'd like to hear from all of you if you think it worth my considerable time to get this done. Won't cost me much, as CD-Rs are cheap, and I already have the Vivid.
Hope Jan takes me up on my offer - it will broaden the playing field a bit. I'd offer John A., but the shipping might get to gnarly?
Back inside. . . (click)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Larry - I'll be happy to give it a try, thanks for the offer.

Rantz - I'm a little short this week, can I borrow one of your make up applicators?


 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 438
Registered: Apr-04
JV,

Why don't you check with Dubya for that make-up applicator? Shipping from Crawford should be less than coming for AU.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Ghia - I would but I understand any correspondence with George will result in the sender being investigated as a possible terrorist
threat. And you have to sign a loyalty oath to get near Crawford now, I believe. They actually have run out some people who moved there with the intention of protesting. And several have been arrested when they got too close to the ranch or a motorcade. 9-11 changed everything.



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2289
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

I like it. It would be interesting to know the answer. Consider, though, that you still have a leading question, which will be something like "place these in order of preference". That will suggest the IS a difference. Also, consider that you and Mrs R will inevitably compare notes, and each make a decision based on that of the other. We are only human. Especially married couples!

Consider that your sample size is small, too. If the "real" order is Vivid is better than Pledge which is the same as no treatment, there is still a good chance of one of you getting that by guessing at random, I think, and even a chance of you and Mrs R giving exactly that same answer just by guessing. I cannot work out the values now; it is late. So, you will not really have nailed it; people will be able to say the answer arose by chance. It is better to start with the "no difference" hypothesis and see how improbable that is.

I have written a suggestion along these lines. It is too long, and it is late, here. Will take it tomorrow. I like the idea of doing something like this.

Must go. The Day After Tomorrow was better at home; there were whole scenes missing from the in-flight edition. Especially ones about emergencies in civil aircraft.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 886
Registered: Aug-04
Jan

"Rantz - I'm a little short this week, can I borrow one of your make up applicators?"

Sure, long as you don't mind the feel of a trowel scraping across your face. It's obvious from Ghia's photo it's pointless asking her.


Ghia,

It was very courageous showing that photo of you to all. Remember, sometimes beauty is only skin deep - though I can't imagine the point in that, but yes, if there is an occassion for a group hug then you may certainly join us. We can all shut our eyes or you could wear a paper bag, the choice is yours.

I was going to state that your face looked like the south end of a north bound camel, but I thought that might be too upsetting. Anyway, do not despair, you have a face made for politics - one that could take you all the way to the top.








P.S. Should your true image be similar to the one exhibited, please ignore the above statement.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 439
Registered: Apr-04
MR,

That sounded a little disparaging to me. Here in the South, we don't appreciate disparagement. The only recourse I have is to send my twin brother Bubya after ya. Trust me, ya don't want to mess with Bubya. As me and Bubya have been sayin' lately "ya can run but ya can't hide!"
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 887
Registered: Aug-04
Ghia,

Y'all go on and bring him on. I've seen ya'lls Bubya's and Bubba's and Billy Bob's. Dang bunch of pansies if ya'll axe me.

 

New member
Username: Note_blue

Post Number: 2
Registered: Oct-04
"I really do not know what happened but the main items in the forum now are politics, old jokes, dogs business, sausage manufacturing and paint fumes sniffing techniques." - Asimo

Girls just wanna have fun.

==================

I didn't know either what the heck was going on in this thread so I had to ask My Rantz. But if you noticed, everyone seems to try to keep the thread back to it's original intention. As to politics, well, it's the talk of the town and the world, maybe. After all, we have a decision to make in two weeks.

I'm not an Oxford or Harvard University grad, so relax, I'm just one of the commoners. I must admit, though, that there are quite a few people in this thread who can write and express their ideas well. Maybe they are the Oxford and Harvard grads.

Asimo, you are in good company here. I'm new to this forum, but don't let these Old Dogs bite you.
Arf! arf!

(formerly "Blue Note")
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
(peek) Whew! things are quiet. OK - JV - I'll be sending you a smallish bottle this coming week. I'd do it Monday, but my wife has the car all day, so I can't get about. Sigh - the poverty of retirement, doncha know! (grin)
OK, John - I'll forget about the test. I thought that you'd find some way to show my plans as inadequate. Should have known that I've met my match, and forgotten about such grandiose ideas.
Ojophile - getting this forum back on original track - the Brubeck SACD "Time Out" sounds MUCH better in stereo than in multi-channel. Whatever they did to "spread" the instruments was a mistake.
Actually, the more SACDs I listen to, the more I realize that - for pure musical enjoyment, the good old 2-channel works fine - for me. When I take my SACDs over to my doctor-friend's house to play them (I still have no SACD player) I often choose stereo - for some reason it just presents itself on-stage, and I am the center of a great audience of one. A nice feeling, without "ghosts" haunting me all 'round.
The engineers may yet get the hang of this surround business - but I embrace it for movies, not always CDs. Then again, please remember that I'm listening at home to a pair of $400 Polk speakers - and at my friend's house I listen to Martin Logans worth - what - thousands?
Meanwhile, if any of you decide on a fair test for Vivid vs. "regular" sound, I'll be interested. I hope Classical 1 comes back, I'd like to ask more about his multi-person session!
Oops, I hear people coming. . . (click)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 888
Registered: Aug-04
Note_Blue

Well stated!


Rick

"This is all getting much too tedious................................
"


You're right and I apologise for helping to protract this silly enhancement arguement. Back to the original point: I know where you stand, but I have to state that, IMHO, well engineered/mixed hi-rez multi-channel is much more preferable to well engineered/mixed two channel stereo.

To describe the difference I could use words such as soundstage, imaging, openess, clarity, emotion, definition, fidelity and so on, but I'll wrap it up in one word:










VIVID




Ya'll come back soon now - ya hear?
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
MR - wonderful posting! Does it hurt much, having your tongue in your cheek as you talk? (grin)
On the above-mentioned Brubeck album, the surround is NOT well-engineered, thus suffers.
Further, I think that multi-sound is fine if you have very good equipment, but is easily "tinified" ( as in, "sounds tinny" - ahem) with poor speakers or bad speaker placement. Very touchy, this.
So - do you have any suggestions for a valid test to see if Vivid (still chuckling over your above-listed posting) makes any difference?
Is that a Nun? oops . . . (click)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 79
Registered: Jun-04
Hey, Larry, good to hear from you again.

I'm not surprised that you found the Dave Brubeck "Time Out" SACD better sounding in stereo than in multi-channel. I heard parts of it, too, and was hugely disappointed that the reissue producer(s) had tampered with an otherwise great recording. I'm definitely keeping the remastered CD version.

I made the subjective point earlier that multi-channel mastering/remastering will work for bigger ensembles, not for small groups. The ambience that is created by a small jazz group, i.e., a trio or a quartet, is best created by a good 2-channel system. You don' t have to be "there" to enjoy the music. To spread the drums-bass-piano-alto sax sound of the Brubeck Quartet into 5.1 channels is like spreading 4 drops of Vivid onto 5 CD's [poor analogy!]. But you get the point.

On large ensembles, e.g., septets, big bands, and orchestras, the multi-channel format might work. I say "might" because, again, it depends on whether the engineer is more concerned with bringing more "presence" to the sound, rather than presenting the music to you more realistically. What if the mixing/mastering results in the timpani and cymbals coming out of your rear, oops, I mean your surround speakers? Ditto with say, the saxophone section of the Count Basie band? That wouldn't be realistic , would it?

I think as serious listeners, we have to ask ourselves when listening to multi-channel, "Is this how this music would sound like if I were "there" with the performers?" "There" could be (a) a concert hall; (b) a jazz club; (c) a stadium; or (d) a recording studio.

[John A., please consider the above as my reply to your post, "And consider the benefits when it is not a re-mastering, but a multichannel recording in the first place."]


Just my opinion only, really, just my opinion. Probably not worth a drop of your $45 bottle of Vivid. My Rantz, can you read this?




 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 889
Registered: Aug-04
Ojo,


"I think as serious listeners, we have to ask ourselves when listening to multi-channel, "Is this how this music would sound like if I were "there" with the performers?" "There" could be (a) a concert hall; (b) a jazz club; (c) a stadium; or (d) a recording studio.
"


I agree to a point, but I don't think we really have to ask that question - as long as it sounds good, and/or right for me is what matters. The recordings to some may be preferable if they are indicative of what the sound might be like in these places but they will never truly put us there.

And I have to agree with Larry, John shoots 'em down again.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1646
Registered: Dec-03
agreed with what mr rantz had said:

"I agree to a point, but I don't think we really have to ask that
question - as long as it sounds good, and/or right for me is what
matters. The recordings to some may be preferable if they are
indicative of what the sound might be like in these places but they
will never truly put us there."

for some people that is what they feel surround should do for them
for it to be an improvement over 2 channel.

for myself i'm on the same thinking as mr rantz.

surround doesn't need to recreate anything.

a prime example is beck's sea change.
that is by far for me the best surround i've heard.
and that disk recreats nothing. it just sounds so
good with music coming
from everywhere, that is what i want. just like dsotm doesn't recreate
anything it just great!

so i thinks it's hard to say what surround should or shouldn't do.

It seems we basically have 2 sets of people.
ones who like the feeling of recreating an event
and those who actually like the extra effects of surround.

some complain that surround can get to ping pongy!
I actually have no problem with that.
I like the feeling of being surrounded by things coming all different
directions and i like the intruments being seperated more.

as we have all pretty stated some are better than others
but pretty much if i don't like a surround piece it's that i didn't
like the music or the eq/quality of the recording.
not that surround messed it up.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 890
Registered: Aug-04
Old Dogs,

Today, this old dog learnt a new trick: How to alter my perception of someone.

This overcast Sunday (we had the first real drop of rain for several months) began with a lazy breakfast, then a stroll around the nearby shopping center. Killing time. My wife saw a DVD video and suggested we purchase it. I said I'd think about it because I truly couldn't stand the artist: I had considered him a young punk.

Anyway, I purchased a 5.1 DD DVD video of Dr John with The Chris Barber Band recorded at the Marquee Club in London in 1983. For the sale price of $15 it was very good, but average production. Didn't matter, the Doctor is one of my favourite Jazz/blues artists.

This other DVD-A was on sale for $19.00 and my wife said she had seen a clip from it playing somewhere in the previous week. Reluctantly, I agreed, we made the purchase, walked around a bit, bought a couple of 'on sale' novels and returned home to have lunch with our new entertainment.

The brash young punk that I once detested instantly held me captive as he began to belt out the great jazz/swing numbers of Frank, Deano, Sammy and others. A sensational orchestra, and the bevy of foxy dancers all added to around 70 minutes of amazing entertainment. I could not believe the flawless performance (okay, post production may have helped), the humour, and the spectacle of it all. 5.1 & 2 channel DD, great sound and totally engrossing - it made our day.

My hat's off to Robbie Williams.

The DVD-V is Robbie Williams "Live At The Albert"

An absolutely must have Dvd-V if you like the music genre - M rated for language.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2290
Registered: Dec-03
Larry,

"I thought that you'd find some way to show my plans as inadequate. "

Ouch. Not my intention at all! It is a great idea! We should think a bit about how to design the test, though. Otherwise it will just generate more difference of opinion, people will feel their judgement/honesty is being questioned; mass resignations; more duelling; etc.

Meanwhile, if any of you decide on a fair test for Vivid vs. "regular" sound, I'll be interested

My suggested strategy is all based on the assumption that you can burn in the effect of Vivid, post comparison files (from treated and untreated discs) on the internet, etc. But MR and Kegger think this is crazy. We have stalemate there.

It is generous of you to send out samples of Vivid, but just hold on. Your idea of a blind trial is surely the way to go.

I don't think you need awesome and expensive speakers to hear the benefit of multichannel recording; it is only stereo squared, as it were.

MR,

Masterful response to Ghia about her charming photo. Remember the camera angle may not be giving the most flattering effect.

I was going to propose the milliGhia as a unit equal to minus one milliHelen: the face in the picture could surely become "The face that sank a thousand ships".

Let's hope it does not come to that.

Ojophile,

I agree. There are good multi-channel recordings, and bad ones, as with stereo. Going back to Jan's point, the ones made in Moscow for Naxos are pretty bad, imho. The instruments keep moving around and changing size. The piano concertos are like facing a firing squad, or something. The Jazz Suites are good. Shostakovich probably would probably have endorsed a spotlight on the soloists; part of the fun.

Thanks for the A9 link. I had not heard of that. Part of Amazon dot com.

BTW, please nobody try www dot vivid dot com, especially Larry, who is of a nervous disposition; it leads seriously off topic. Nice to see they are diversifying their product base, though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 892
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger,

You're right about what different people like. I'm glad to have your support in the way we like our music. That's what it is - enjoyment.

 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 80
Registered: Jun-04
Or "The face that launched a thousand sh*ts".

 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 81
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger / My Rantz,

Your point well taken. Thanks.

Enjoy the rest of the weekend.

Cheers!


 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
OK, john, perhaps my response was a bit on the "hard" side. Apologies, but it seems that you are usually very quick to respond to an idea with something like: "Well, it might be OK - BUT. . ."
How about this - and please - everybody respond, if possible.
I take two CDs - one with piano concerto and other with string quartet - without using Vivid on the "masters" I burn 3 CD-Rs of each - then - on one CD I use Pledge, and mark "P" on playing side - on second CD I buff with Vivid, and mark "V" on playing side. Third CD is left as it is, UNTREATED IN ANY WAY. Keeping playing side down, I don't know which is which.
Round 1 - I play all three discs in order, telling my wife what each is - plain, P and V - that gives us both a subjective experience, and we can tell if we hear ANY differences. If not, then the heck with the rest of the test, it would not be valid. BUT - if we hear differences, we just mark them on paper, and don't discuss them at all - only say that "there are differences."
With me so far?
Round 2 - I shuffle the discs, then hand them to Merri, who does likewise, then suffle them again. Play each disc, and we individually mark paper as to which we think it is, and sound qualities. We don't discuss AT ALL.
We do the Round 2 process THREE TIMES - each time writing, but not discussing, our comments and ratings.
After ALL the testing and writing is done, then we compare notes - and post our results on this forum. As I see it, without discussing as we go, there is no sharing or pollution of ratings. Is this acceptable to one and all - or am I leaving out an important element?
I'm afraid I agree that sending out samples is an awkward way to go about it.
Meanwhile, I hope that Jan does some sort of personal testing as soon as he gets my sample, which I will put in first class mail on Monday.
Yes (blush) you are right, John A - I do have a "nervous disposition," mainly because I've been shot at (psychologically or in real time) so many times in my life. And I have already accessed the web site - to find that I can't afford Mr. Walker's sky-high-priced equipment. As to the cones, well, I read that Rick loves them and Classical 1 can't hear any difference - and as to the "SST" silver contact stuff - sigh - I just wonder if cleaning with ProGold wouldn't do just as good a job? Now, with the SST, I'm in way over my head on the "understanding" scale.
As to my comments on multi-channel - I was hinting at the "usual" home theatre setups, using very small and often "tinny" back speakers. Most of you probably use much better quality rear speakers, so you don't experience what I've heard too many times!
Oops. . .a woman's heavy footsteps approaching.
(click)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 893
Registered: Aug-04
Larry R stated:

"Is this acceptable to one and all - or am I leaving out an important element?"

Yes Larry: trust!

If we can't trust you enough to take your word that Vivid does improve the sound quality, then why would we trust your test results?

But, as for me, I have no reason to distrust your word at all. So yes, your test idea is quite acceptable to me, but is your perceived improvement using Vivid really worth all the trouble you are so kindly prepared to untake just to prove it to the rest of the old dogs.

And when those footsteps are heavy - you really need to look out!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2295
Registered: Dec-03
I was preparing a reply and then saw My Rantz's comment. Let me reply to him first, because it prepares the way for my suggestion.

MR,

I do not trust Larry any more or less than I trust myself. The way to go, in my view, with a trial such as this, is not to trust anyone, including oneself. Everything we experience is subjective. If we really want to know how things are, we do our best to eliminate all subjective inputs that could influence the outcome. So....

Larry,

I think it is a really good idea. You did ask for a suggestion, though. What I would do is reverse the order: carry out "round 2" first; "round 1" second. I think I know myself well enough to imagine that, once I had associated any blemishes, fingerprints, etc, on the side I COULD see (the non-playing side) with each treatment, I would find it difficult to stop myself looking for those, as possible clues about what to expect. I imagine the discs might also smell different (...?) and, perhaps, have tell-tale, stray bits of treatment on the non-playing side.

In round 2 (as you describe it; I repeat, if it were me, I would do it first!), after each of the three shuffles, I suggest you and Merri each listen to all three discs in turn. But then each have a piece of paper, with a, b, c, representing the discs in the order they were played. Then score each of a, b and c as 3, 2, 1, from best to worst perceived sound quality. The sum for each trial, for each tester, should always be "6", so, if there is no clear order:-

Give the value "2" to each of the three discs if they all sound the same;

Give the value "2.5" each to any two discs which sound equally better than the third, which scores "1".

Give the value "1.5" each to any two discs which sound equally worse than the third, which then scores "3".

If the sum is 6 in each trial, there is no penalty to a disc which is clearly better or worse than the other two, irrespective of whether those two themselves can be distinguished. And generally, I imagine the numbers will be easier to interpret, at the end.

I also think it might be more fun, and maybe even more valid, if you both listened at the same time, but taking care not to discuss your assessments, or reveal your score to each other. You could keep the sample size up by doing just as you say, but both scoring in both sets of three. You are going to have to listen to that same piece six times, anyway!

I also suggest marking the discs (playing side; good idea) in some way not obviously representing the treatment or lack thereof, say "Tom", "Dick" and "Harry". Leave the "key", about which is treated in which way, in a sealed envelope. You have to do something like this because you need to be able to distinguish the discs from each other to record the scores, but you should not know, or even think you know, which has been treated in which way. If a third person had marked the discs, and had sole access to that key, and if neither you nor Merry even thought about Vivid and Pledge, just music, it would be a good trial, and an interesting game. I think the probabilities, at the end, would be good enough to be very interesting.

I recall Merri is scientifically and mathematically inclined. See what she thinks. I have in mind, for the results, a statistical treatment, to pull out probabilities of the results being obtained by chance. I would have to brush up on that, but could do it. Merri might know how to do it instantly.

Further suggestion; whichever way you do it, decide on a protocol and stick to it blindly. Again, it is just human to want to change the rules in the middle, to "improve things". That could be lethal for the randomness of the samples, and make the results very difficult to interpret. It would also make the whole thing less fun; you should not have to think, just listen, and decide.

Further suggestion: try to imagine all objections to the validity of the result, and correct for them in the protocol. If the treatment is worn off by shuffling the discs, that might show up in the distribution of scores between a,b, and c, but it might not, and you want every score to have the same weight. Maybe "shuffling" should be tossing a coin , drawing lots, or playing "eenie, meanie..." .

You did ask, Larry!

Here's to the spirit of enquiry!

All the best.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 82
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger / My Rantz,

Just wondering whether you guys have the Steely Dan "Two Against Nature" DVD-A, and if so, what's your personal opinion or rating of it regarding the sound? I already have the CD.

DVD-A's cost almost twice than CD's here in Canada, so it's not easy to dip into one's pockets.

Would appreciate a reply when you get a chance.

Thanks in advance,

Don

 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 181
Registered: Jun-04
Hi doggies,

Has anybody encountered a serious review on the subject for these vivid discussions? I googled on "Vivid DVD", but only found very positive opinions on websites where by coincidence Vivid enhancer also could be purchased. (And some movies putting a totally different meaning into the word "Vivid"...)

JV: When I say m-ch does not substantially improve listening experience for some music, I mean that 2-ch is enough to represent all its elements, i.e. all instruments and vocals. For me m-ch is in this context an improvement only for complex (but not necessarily complicated) music. Regarding hi-rez live recordings I have no reference points yet. But for a concert DVD I agree m-ch is better for representing the complex acoustics of a concert hall.

Ghia, I scrolled points for your comments on DSotM but didn't find. Any news on that? Oh, and BTW: when you listen to Hotel California in 2-ch, is the guitar intro on acoustic guitar at much lower volume that in m-ch mix? (Suspect problem in my cabling.)

That's all for now. Happy to see you ole' doggies barking vividly. As Neil Young wrote: "Rust never sleeps"...

AL
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1647
Registered: Dec-03
for the above tests i'm not even going to comment.
that's how much i really care!

......................................

Ojophile to be honest i'm not sure if i can be objective on
any steely dan disk for sure. i love them that much.

about the only thing i can say about "Two Against Nature" is
i like it just as much as the rest of the steely dan hi rez disks.

to me they have all been recorded extremly well.
oh yah i do have "Two Against Nature"

i don't know if that was any help for you.
but i can't imagine anyone being disapointed by the disk though!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 896
Registered: Aug-04
"Everything we experience is subjective. If we really want to know how things are, we do our best to eliminate all subjective inputs that could influence the outcome. So...."

So . . . is every day a difficult one for you John?

I don't mean to sound sarcastic or do I? I'm not really sure, but you do like to take the role of grandmaster. I guess the keepers of all knowledge often feel the need to infuse the rest of us mere mortals with little snippets of wisdom now and again. After all, we are such a daft lot.

Maybe I should just speak for myself. Darn, sincere apologies - there's that horrid word again. Maybe I should only speak for myself. Er - maybe I should speak for myself. Never mind, please don't bother with the correction.

Let me ask this: if Mrs A uses a different laundry powder and tells you that it makes those whites just so much whiter than the old and slightly less expensive one, does she need to submit the powder to blind testing to be permitted to continue using it or do you believe her and proudly go about your business with shirt aglowing in fresh new whiteness?

Or, if you cannot see any difference do you castigate her for believing in the snake oil merchants or do you follow the tactful method to retain her loyal service?


 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 897
Registered: Aug-04
Ojo,

I have both the CD (which is very good audio quality) and the DVD-A. Unless, we just throw a few cd's on the 5 disc changer while having a drink or a dozen, I'd listen to the hi-rez MC version every time. Same goes for "Going Out Of Business" (good audio CD also), though audiowise the Gaucho SACD wins over them all - slightly!

Hope that helps.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 83
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger / My Rantz,

Thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated!

I'm also hoping that they would release "Aja" in MC. Unless of course, it's already out there but hasn't reached our shores.

Cheers!

 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
Thanks for the warning - the footsteps were ominous, but now long-faded into the distance.

Jan: As the good Sen. Kerry would say: "Help is on the way! - in the form of a smallish "care package." Will be mailed Monday - promise!

MR - thanks for the kudos and support - I really do try, and fail so often! (grin)

John A. - Whew! Sorry I asked. . .even Merri said your ideas were a bit of "over-kill," but we will go ahead with SOME form of test this next week, even if only for our amazement and amusement.

All - thanks for the "Welcome Back" comments - I guess I won't bother to re-register - to what end? It's good enough for "Dallas Jan" to stay on the sidelines - so. . . .

Too quiet for me, something's up - back to chocolate and shadows. (click)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"I often choose stereo - for some reason it just presents itself on-stage, and I am the center of a great audience of one. A nice feeling, without "ghosts" haunting me all 'round."

That's a great description, Larry. See just a few minutes out of the closet and look what you can come up with! (Quick somebody lock the door to the closet before he gets back inside.) The idea that mc puts the applause of the audience around me adds nothing to my experience of "being there". I'm still just lil' ol' me with my HiFi. And those ghosts are most annoying when they just pop up from the most unexpected places at the oddest of times.

There seems to be a common agreement that mc benefits those recordings where there is no "reality" of the performance. DSOTM is the best example that we all seem to know. And I agree, the SACD of that dsic is enjoyable. But we still seem to have a disagreement as to whether mc should be able to recreate the experience of a live event which we are attending.
For the music I listen to, I am on the side of mc should be able to take me there or bring them here. Otherwise I have so little use for recordings like DSOTM that I would never invest more than what I have for my home theater to achieve those results. After the novelty of DSOTM in surround wears off I want something more substantial than just effects to keep me interested. It goes from WOW to WOw to wow to w...........what else is there to listen to.
So even those who think mc is great for the music you listen to; do you think mc is good enough? Do you think the idea of me/there, them/here is a worthy goal for mc? Or should we just be making recordings that let the ghosts wander around the room?

I have also been wondering if anyone has come across the standards in mc being a problem. First, the placement of speakers for mc audio is sugested as different than mc for video. Second, not all mc audio recording engineers agree on where speakers should be placed. Telarc and Chesky both, from what I can read, feel the center channel is a throw away item that they do not include in their mix. They suggest instead that the center and sub channels be used for height channels with the speakers mounted up high towards the front of the room. I understand they are in favor of moving the surround speakers even more to the side than SACD suggests. How are you dealing with these differences in recording techniques? As has been suggested one of the requirements for the proper resolution of what is on the disc is that the engineer had an idea where the speakers would be placed for playback. Do you move your speakers around to accomodate these different recordings? If you don't, how do you judge what you are hearing on a scale of good/bad mc?

As far as Larry's test is concerned, here's my input. You are putting yourself to too much work trying to satisfy all conditions that could cause a variability. (I got lost with John's description of how to set up the test.) I didn't think we were testing whether microrganisms would reproduce in a certain atmospheric condition. I thought we just were interested in whether Larry and his wife thought they had wasted their retirement cash. I really think no matter how the test is set up we can't overcome those who A) don't care or B) don't want to buy something like this.
Here's my suggestion for the test. Larry and Meri should get a few friends over that like to listen to music. Ask each to bring a favorite disc or two. Have a good dinner and a bit of wine. (I can suggest a good menu of Italian if you wish.) After dinner gather everyone in the listening area. Larry can start with one of his selections by playing an untreated disc. Then take the disc, treat it with Vivid without telling anyone what he has done. Replay the disc and ask for opinions. Those that don't find a difference can go back for more dolce and Vin Santo. If anyone finds a difference they can progress with another disc of theirs. If at the end you have more people who feel there is a difference then the test is enough for what we need. Everyone can make up their own mind about whether they want to invest in something or not. I know it's not that different from Clasical 1's trial but that is sufficient evidence for me. And Larry and Meri get a good meal with friends out of the deal.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


To Larry and all who care; I have had a song running through my head this morning. It is the school song from S.S. Peter and Paul Catholic School where I learned many things in my youth.

Part of the song goes:

"Run, run, run
I think I hear a nun"

Just thought I would throw that out.



 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
Classical 1 - got your e-mail - and am sorry you are not my friend "Todd." Anyway, welcome to Florid-duh - and happy sailing!

Hey, Jan - the "dinner and a concert" idea sounds just fine to me! As a matter of fact, our doctor-friend and his wife - and two grown kiddies - will be descending on us in about 10 days - coming down to check on their house, and to get together with us (we've become very good friends). They are among the very few friends we have who love classical and love opera. Sooooo - with six of us for dinner (I make probably not as good as yours, Jan, but very good pasta sauce.)
Some fine Australian (Black Swan) Shiraz, perhaps, or some nice Italian wine - pasta, salad and some good tropical fruit with Haagen-Dacz Pineapple-Coconut ice cream and Jamaica Blue Mountain coffee - then, ON TO THE MUSIC!
Heck, that sounds a LOT more fun - and your idea of telling them that all they have to do is to listen to the same disc twice, and tell us if there's any difference. Will the wine dull their senses? Will the pasta weigh down their cognative facilities? Will dessert smudge their perception? Who the heck knows? And by that time, nobody will care, anyway! G R I N
But seriously, we'll give it a whirl. Oh, I know, I know - it won't be truly "scientific" or "objective," but then, unless you can show me ocilloscope tracings, the differences in recorded music are too individualistic to measure accurately.
Jan - sent you an e-mail re your "care package," and hope you get it without incident.
OK - WHO THE HECK LOCKED THE DOOR TO MY CLOSET!!! SPEAK UP, DANG YOU! THAT'S NO - I REPEAT - N O - WAY TO TREAT A FELLOW FORUM MEMBER!!! (rattle, rattle, WHAM!)(ouch!)
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
AL - sorry, I had to scroll back a bit to find your posting re Vivid reviews. Yes, I've found about a half-dozen consumer reviews on various forums - and to be honest I've never found one that said: "this product stinks." Which surprises me, because for every product on the market, there are always many who love to slam it one way or another. I, too, would like to read some "informed" negative reviews - if any of you find some - please post a link - I really try to be open-minded about this. All I know is that my wife says it makes a marked difference - so what can I say but: "yes, dear!" DOUBLE GRIN
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


Larry, Larry, Larry - I can't believe my eyes. I try to help and what do I get? Austrlian Shiraz?! No offense to our friends from the Southern Hemisphere but - really!

It goes:
Lemoncello, tall with splash of mineral water.
Antipasto: bruschetta and/or frittata
with light white wine, try Mezza Corona Pinot Griggio.
Primo: pasta, rissotto, polenta or zupa. Wine goes with what you choose. Chianti Classico is a good choice (Antinori).
Secondo: meat, poultry or fish. Again wine goes with what you serve. Michelle Chiarlo Barrollo or Montepulciano.
Condimenti: veggies. Wine compliments secondo. NO asparagus or artichokes here.
Dolce: fruit, red wine with peaches or pears, ricotta torta, chunk of Parmisano Reggianno. Sweeter wine, Vin Santo, Amaretto.
Digestivo: Grappa, Anisette.
More Grappa!!!

Or might I suggest you try "Slow Food". I have a great recipe for Bagne Cauda (anchovies, garlic and cream served warm) a traditional feste meal. Dip bread and vegetables in this sauce and talk to your friends. Serve with a Barbera. A nice way to spend an evening. Dinner takes about two hours and there is plenty of time for conversation.

I don't care if you get the test right, just don't blow the dinner thing.




 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

I've obviously not given you enough food in the first meal, better add a contorno and an insalata.
If that still doesn't sound like enough let me know.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


http://www.slowfood.it/

Click on "eng" if you must.



 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
(burp) Hey, Jan, (burp) whadda yah tryin' tah do, ruin my entire system? You've posted enough food to kill three elephants and a stray racoon! But you are quite correct in your "correction" of wines. I basically tossed in the Shiraz as a pacifier to My Rantz, who SHOULD stick up for his wine-heritage friends "down under."
Our wonderful Italian friend in Chicago has taught us a lot about "true" Italian fare - and thus we know at least what you're talking about! It is the nirvana of cuisine, and we relish every morsel of it - even when it's only "quasi" Italian!!! GRIN
I sure hope John reads the "I don't care if you get the test right, just don't blow the dinner thing." Priorities, dear friend - that's the substance and essence of life! The Italians have known and embraced it forever - and the English and Amerikans have barely scratched the surface of what it is all about. My ancestors, the French ('scuse) have somewhat of a handle on it, but they seldom bathe, and that takes away the ambiance, doncha know (whew!).
Merri says to John that yes, she has been deeply involved in math and science - and as an active "Mensa" member, spends a lot of time debating string theories and quantum physics. When she is not producing stuff in her art studio, that is. When many men say they "don't understand their wives," they mean that they simply don't "get" women. When I say "I don't understand my wife," I mean - I don't understand what 160-plus IQ people talk about! I love her dearly, but have not the SLIGHTEST idea what she and her friends discuss. I long ago gave up invitations to join their discussion groups, because I would be sitting on the sidelines and giving out an occasional "Yep" when asked if I understood. Which I don't.
But when Merri says John's proposal is off the map, I tend to listen to her. She opines that John is just trying to show me up - but I don't believe that's quite true. He's just one of those individuals who colors outside the lines - and thus thinks on a different plane than we mere mortals.
Jan - we're gonna do the dinner - and the test, if - I mean IF - we get around to it. And we'll drink a toast to you, and wish you health and wealth and (from those of us who are legitimately part Native American) - HOZHO. Balance. Peace.
More anon - but now I go to hep dah ma'am do some stir-fry - lean pork, snow peas, bean sprouts, mushrooms, sundried tomatoes, and "secret" sauce. (Hers, not mine!)
Keep whatever faith sustains you. . .
(Hey! it's pretty scary here outside the closet!!)
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 898
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

"Do you think the idea of me/there, them/here is a worthy goal for mc? Or should we just be making recordings that let the ghosts wander around the room?"

The me/there, them/here thing is certainly okay by me but it's not a necessity in MC. I can understand those who like live classical recordings to be presented in that manner, but the engineer/mixer has to be at the top of his game to get it right.

IMHO the ghost wandering around the room analogy is completely misrepresentative of most MC recordings and is also something I do not take well to either. But such bad recordings are rare or, it is a deliberate event for special effects and of course, in those circumstances, the ghosts are welcome.

In my collection, the instruments and the voices come from their designated positions, with only the occassional variances. Yes, on many recordings I can shut my eyes and wonder about the "me/there, them/here" thing and some might come close to this emotion, but really, when the music is good and the sound is good. I just get lost in the 'good' and let it take me to wherever.

For me it's not a battle between Hi-rez MC/ or Hi-rez stereo or normal stereo. I can love it all. From what I've heard so far I much prefer Hi-rez MC when comparing well recorded music.

And I do think the quality of speakers/source/amplfication would make a difference. Same with speaker placement, but that applies to stereo also. My set up is somewhere between the ideal for HT and MC and I find that's okay. I have not spent enough days, weeks, or months to ascertain whether there is "the" magic setting. I'm happy with the status quo of our entertainment room.

And my friend there is only one country from where excellent wines may be procured. The same country from where excellence is the known value in so many areas.

If you haven't tried 'Sparklin' Grape Juice for Yobbos' you haven't lived.




 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
On SACD players - well, I've been doing very heavy research on the newest models - and have determined that, unless you have a Krell-quality or McIntosh-quality system, a lower-priced CD player will do an excellent job for you.
There are two "new" players on the market which have major "underground" support - that is, the geeks who take these things apart, rate them, then "tweak" them to their liking.
The one player that is getting high reviews is the one that some of you are buying: the Toshiba 4960. This player essentially "has it all" without any fancy-work on the outside. They put their money INSIDE the unit.
the other unit that is getting a LOT of attention is the Denon 2910. Seems that it is so good that it rates (to the geek's taste, anyway) with Meridian and Krell. Amazing - but it's their rating, not mine, friends!
There was very high hope (VHH) for the new Samsung 941 - but when the Sept. 30 deadline for delivery came - WHAM-O - Samsung pulled them, claiming a problem with the HDMI (is that right?) cable set-up. Now, the unit is supposed to hit the market late this year.
The 941 picks up where the current 841 leaves off - has about everything - and will cost about $300 Online.
I'm looking at both the Toshiba and Samsung, as I have scant cash, but a champagne taste. I think whoever buys either of these units will be most pleasantly surprised at the quality built into them.
As several of you have so wisely said - such things as DAC chips have come down in price drastically within the past two years or so. Now, there is little reason for anything but good quality in any unit above the "basic" level.
Of course - the units will sound measurably better if used with Vivid-buffed CDs!! (GRIN)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2298
Registered: Dec-03
MR,

"So . . . is every day a difficult one for you John?"

Pretty well. I am used to people asking for my trust when what they want is my time or money.

Trust is earned. Most people on this thread, you included, have already done that.

Larry,

You do as you please. You asked for suggestions. I gave you some.

Try and let us know what you find!

All the best.
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
Whoa, guys! Mer just checked our wine "closet" (bottom of pantry - no "wine cellar") and reports that, as of today (before dinner) we have a total of 28 bottles of pinot grigio, sauvignon blanc, shiraz, montelpulciano, chianti classico, merlot and a coupl-ah stray bottles of Mumms champagne. Hmmm. . .cross-culture, that's us'ns!
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
John A - yes, John, I did ask for suggestions, and you very kindly gave me some. But they were so complex (to my simple mind) that the procedures you espoused were simply too detail-oriented to make any such tests in the least "doable" in any but a lab setting. We're trying to do the "comfortable living room" scene here, and though Merri is in your camp re the scientific mind, even she allowed as how going through all that ritual was "not really worth it" insofar as simple testing for "is one CD better-sounding than the other."
I do appreciate the ideas and procedures, but you are far, far ahead of me in what you demand from such experiments. I'm old and worn-down and want just to spend the rest of my life enjoying what I can, without the stress and strain of modern life intruding too much. I'll take Jan's suggestions, thank you, because I think they are on the level that I can understand and utilize easily. Better a great meal and an uncertain test than a great test and an uncertain meal!!!
GRIN
Each of us is different. I lived in stress-to-the-max for 30+ years. Many of my cohorts are dead. I'd like to ease out a bit, but still have some valid challenges. You are obviously tuned in to more stress-related projects than am I, sir. Hope you understand that difference, and respect my more "casual" approach to life and its aspects regarding Stereo/HiFi/Audiophilia.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 900
Registered: Aug-04
John A

"Trust is earned. Most people on this thread, you included, have already done that."

I thank you for that - sincerely - and you should know the sentiment is mutual.

I'm sure you mean well, but you do seem to get a little tough on people sometimes. You tend to go full tilt boogie on almost every opinion, idea or belief. I think Larry, in a sense, offered some very sage advice with the stress thing. We are not as young as we used to be and life really is far too short to put too much emphasis on the unimportant while missing the things that really count. That's not to say that a good debate now and then isn't a healthy thing - but sometimes, in this knife-edge world, it pays to give a little. That's how wars are avoided.

Prescription: Good air in - bad air out. Let's all take one every couple of seconds.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest


"Better a great meal and an uncertain test than a great test and an uncertain meal!!! "

Congratulazione! Your ancestors must have made it across the Alps for a meal.

You have about enough wine for a good Italian meal. 9 before the meal, 9 with the meal and 9 after the meal. That leaves you one bottle - no one should ever be completely out of wine.
Though fond of nature and animals, most Italians wouldn't think of feeding that meal to any but their friends. That is a light dinner that should give you time to reflect on life's less stressful moments. Merely a good two to three hour meal. Wait till I give you the meal you fix for a religious holiday.


Rantz - I will, with your permission, pass on 'Sparklin' Grape Juice for Yobbos'. In my youth I saw too many friends who got too familiar with Mad Dog 20/20 to be enticed by your elixir.

I understand your national pride and I can agree that that many of your products are good "values". But until you can produce The King of Wines and The Wine of Kings; YOU AIN'T GOT SQUAT!!!



Sorry, Asimo, off subject again.



 

Bronze Member
Username: Ojophile

Toronto, ON

Post Number: 84
Registered: Jun-04
My two cents' worth:

IMHO, perhaps it's time to put a lid on these 'enhancer' debates and move on to the original intention of this thread. My Rantz and Kegger have made a valid point in that it all boils down to the enjoyment of the music. I can't argue with that.

There is something inherent in a piece of music that reaches and touches us individually and which defies explanation, and for that matter, requires none. No music theory, no scientific evaluation, and certainly no engineering feat can explain the sheer pleasure that each one of us gets when we listen to our favorite music on our favorite system. Furthermore, there's comfort in the knowledge that there are continuing efforts to improve the way that music is delivered to us. Mind, the final result is still subjective, but to quote My Rantz, "I agree with me." What you hear is just as valid as what the next person does.

Just my humble opinion. Shoot it down if you wish.

 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 901
Registered: Aug-04
Ojo,

"Just my humble opinion. Shoot it down if you wish."

No sir, that's a C130 Red Cross opinion. Now, does Ojophile have any takers on that comment?

 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
Ojo et al - I'm in total agreement with statements such as you make referring to getting on with musical enjoyment, and eschewing relatively minor sidetracks, such as the Vivid thang. However, may I humbly note that, in my case, as in the case of Classical 1 and others, the use of a controversial product not only gave birth to some heated debate - but - added to my enjoyment of the music itself!
That's why my wife and I use the Vivid - not for some "tweak" that focuses us on the technology, but for the extra dimensions in the music that comes out of the stereo. Neither of us thinks anything about Vivid - except when we're either discussing it on this forum or treating the discs themselves. After that, pop in the disc, enjoy the music, and forget about the "tweak." Works for us.
I'm lucky, in that, despite my relative state of "poorness" I have access to one superb music system in my doctor-friend's home. Whenever I need a super-fi "hit" I trundle over (about a 10-minute drive) and haul out some SACDs - and on occasion a movie or three for his flat-screen TV.
Again - I love the look and "feel" of his stereo equipment - but when I close my eyes, the music takes over, and I tend to overlook the multi-thousands that he can afford to spend.
Back home, the inadequacies of my setup are quickly apparent - sigh - but Merri and I try to overlook congested upper-mid ranges and tinny playbacks as best we can.
Ojo and I share a love of music that we either play now, or played in the past. Live, personal, up-front music that we feel going through our bodies. Nothing like it - ever. You can have a million-dollar HiFi, but until you produce music yourself, on a piano, like Ojo, or a sax or clarinet, as I did many years ago, music will not ever be truly "a part" of you. I can't recommend even rudimentary music-playing enough.
On this forum, dedicated to music, let me toss out a mini-challenge. Take some time to "sing along" with an opera CD - or noodle about with some chopsticks or even forks and spoons as a jazz drummer gives his all big-time. Let it out, and feel good - simply good.
Then come on this forum and discuss music - either 2-channel or surround. All of you probably do or have done such things - just don't forget it as you talk "music."
Two-channel is what I "usually" listen to, because it is enough, and I feel comfortable with it. But in some cases, the multi-channel does create an atmosphere that approaches bliss. Not all "records" have that quality, unfortunately.
So - do I embrace one form or another? Not truly. Both have their strengths, and weaknesses.
But - to really enjoy any - be sure to buff with Vivid! GRIN (sorry, had to dig my shovel in one more time!)
 

Larry R
Unregistered guest
Jan - BTW - Merri and I drink a LOT of Australian wine - Black Swan, Penfolds, etc. - love what they did with "my" ancestors' petite sirah, turning it into "shiraz." Yum! so while I agree with you that Italian wines are excellent, I also come to the side of My Rantz and his countrymens' contribution to very fine wine, indeed!
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