Understanding surround requirements
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New member Username: ExpatcanuckPost Number: 10 Registered: Dec-06 | Greetings. New to home theatre surround sound. I'm trying to understand if, for a 5.1/7.1 system, it's necessary and/or desirable for the surround speakers (side for 5.1, side & back for 7.1) to be the same. I ask because I've got a pair of older mid-fi KLH speakers, and was wondering if I could use those as side surround units, and then have different pair for front left & right. Do AV receivers (I'm currently looking at the Onkyo 503 (cheap refurb) or 504, Denon 1507 or H-K AVR145) typically allow adjusting relative signal for each channel (or channel pair)? Thanks. - Richard |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 12461 Registered: Dec-03 | There is a lot of concensus that the surround speakers are not as critical to match as opposed to the front speakers. Just make sure that your front and centers are matching to avoid differences in sound. And yes, most AV receivers that are designed for HT are adjustable. There are units that also do the adjustments automatically. |
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Bronze Member Username: ExpatcanuckPost Number: 11 Registered: Dec-06 | > ...Just make sure that your front and centers are matching... Hmmmm. Looking at the Paradigm Performance series page http://www.paradigm.com/Website/SiteParadigmProduct/ParadigmModels/Performance/P erformanceSpecs.htm I'm left with the impression that the front L/R and the front center speakers are designed to be different. Can you explain what you mean when you say that the front and centers should be matching? Thanks. - Richard |
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Platinum Member Username: Project6Post Number: 12462 Registered: Dec-03 | Matching as in made by the same company and designed to compliment each other. As opposed to having, let's say, the front left/right are made by Paradigm and your center made by Polk. |
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Gold Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA USA Post Number: 1305 Registered: Mar-05 | I feel that it is very important to have timber matched surrounds. When experiencing a movie soundtrack, there is nothing worse to me than the sound changing as it moves across the sound plan originally created in production. There is a reason that most theaters use the same speakers in the surround applications as they do up front. I love the way speakers disappear and sound seems to come from all over when the right timber matching is done. And in addition, 7.1 is miles ahead in enjoyability than 5.1 |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 5346 Registered: Dec-04 | Ideally, the 5 speakers are all the same. Floormount, standmount, whatever. |
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Silver Member Username: DavidpaPortland, Oregon US Post Number: 297 Registered: Nov-05 | If you cant do ALL the speakers the same, there will be some compromise. But there is compromise anyhow because all of the speakers are in different parts of the room, and will react differently because of room boundaries. If they are from the same line, but different sizes, ie. floorstanders up front, w/ "matching" center (timbre) and surrounds that are smaller but of the same line you will still have good performance because they are (or should be) timbre matched (this is most important when listening to multi channel music, not so much DVD MOVIES) OTOH you CAN get away with mismatched surrounds (I have personally done this, and did not notice so much during movies, but did if I listened to multi channel music) So basically if I havent confused you already it is simply summed up like this................. ALL matching (exact same speaker) =best option ALL same brand and line(can have floorstanders and bookshelves or wall mounted speakers for rears) =2nd best option ALL front 3 L/R/C w/ different brands for surrounds =OK for movies BAD for multi channel music. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1056 Registered: Dec-03 | Richard: "Ideally, all 5 speakers are the same." I quote Nuck here who is facially correct that all five speakers, IDEALLY, should be the same. But let's look at this realistically. Say you have a large room, needing floorstanding mains. It can be impossible to put a third main speaker in the middle of the front wall because that is where your tv screen is. Put it to one side and the soundfield will be skewed. So, we don't often have ideal conditions. Well, speaker makers understand that people need to live with speakers that work within a room, and many have successfully designed solutions that work. Now, Berny is absolutely correct that the front three speakers need to match because the purpose is to project a unified soundfield across the front. However, this does not mean that the speakers need to be identical, merely that they need to be "voice-matched" (also known as "timbre matched"); that is, that the overall tonal balance needs to be very close to one another so that there is no sound anomoly that would upset the image. It is unnecessary that the speakers need to have the same dimensions--you can get voice matching through the use of drivers with very similar charecteristics, and comparable crossovers. Looking are the Paradigm page you put into your last post, you will see all of those speakers have CMC brand tweeters and MPC brand midrange/woofers. The CC-170 is meant to work with the smaller speakers, such as the Atom and Titan, and the larger CC-270 is meant to work with the Esprit and Phantom. Looking at their respective frequency responses, both the 170 and 270 match very well with the main speakers they are meant to work with. Human ears are not laboratory instruments--we cannot hear a 1 or 2 db difference in sound at a particular frequency between two speakers, but we can tell if the tonal balance differs. Good speaker manufacturers, Paradigm is one, have learned how to get the center channel speaker close enough tonally to their mains that human ears can accept the image projected as a unified field. Put another way, say you bought a pair of Paradigm Esprits, but then bought a Paradigm Studio CC-470, a center speaker with far greater resolution than the Esprits for the center. This would upset the tonal balance because your ears could hear the mains would sound smeared and less well defined compared to the CC-470 in the center and it wouldn't sound right. So, it isn't just the same manufacturer, but getting the speakers that are engineered to sound alike. Now, surrounds are a whole different ball game. On that same page, you have Paradigm showing their ADP speaker for surround sound. This is a dipole speaker that puts out sound on either side that is out of phase with the other side. The purpose for this is that it should provide a larger sound field for the secondary information that makes up what comes out of a surround channel. Now, this sound is fundementally different from a monopole speaker and represents a very different view on how to create the right surround sound. Other speaker makers fundementally believe a dipole speaker is rubbish and stick with standard monopole speakers for surrounds, and yet others make "bipole speakers" which are just like dipoles in that they have two sides, but they are not wired out of phase like a dipole is. So, you can see that different speaker makers have very different views about surrounds and the fact that they all have successful proponents indicates that the market can accept that each solution has its own merits. Yet, such speakers can, in no way, be considered identical. That is why we say the surrounds do not need to be identical to the front speakers. In my house, my HT has a different brand surrounds altogether, and they work just fine with my fronts; this is because they do not put out the same information as the fronts, so they do not upset the image in the front. I hope this is understandable. As for your origninal post, I would strongly suggest you stick with the h/k receiver--the onkyos have notoriously poor power supplies that really compromise the sound. If you are willing to spend just a few dollars more, this receiver will provide much better sound than the receivers you are looking at: http://www.accessories4less.com/cgi-bin/item/MARSR4600BLKA If not, stick with 5.1 sound for a receiver of that price range. Asking a poor little onkyo to do 7.1 is like asking for blood from a stone--it just doesn't have the guts for it (an onkyo 504 trying to do 7.1 sound will probably produce only 25wpc on a good day!). However, you certainly can use your older KLHs for the surrounds. I am sure they will work fine. |
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Bronze Member Username: ExpatcanuckPost Number: 12 Registered: Dec-06 | The Marantz SR8500 over the HK 145? Over the 245? |
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Bronze Member Username: UsernamexLondonEngland Post Number: 34 Registered: Oct-05 | Great post from Hawk! I'd just like to chip in I believe some people also prefer regular speakers (ie not dipole / bipole) for there rears if the focus is on multichannel music rather than home theatre. I guess the choice also depends on your budget and space available too. Actually, I remember reading that 6.1 (a rear centre) can cause problems. People can perceive the sound directly behind them came from the front instead (and this is a reason for choosing 5.1 or 7.1)! Anyone know if this is true? Mike |
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Silver Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 898 Registered: Dec-06 | It can in my room since we have a vaulted ceiling, so all the sound tends to reflect off that. I intend to reposition the surrounds so that they're aiming at each other and the rear center facing a little downward. Now, I know you mean that a sound that doesn't reflect. I don't know about that. |
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Bronze Member Username: ExpatcanuckPost Number: 13 Registered: Dec-06 | Hawk - Oh yeah ... MANY thanks for the comprehensive & detailed reply. - Richard |
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Silver Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 912 Registered: Dec-06 | Do, do do, do, do do, do, do do, do, do do, dooo Little Joe never once gave it away Everybody had to pay and pay I said hey Joe, take a walk on the wild side Sugar plug fairy come and hit the streets, lookin' for soul food and a place to eat Alright, huh Jackie is Juuust speedin' away, thought she was James Dean for a day He said...ETC ETC ETC |
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Gold Member Username: HawkHighlands Ranch, CO USA Post Number: 1076 Registered: Dec-03 | Richard: Whoa, there! I never suggested the Marantz SR8500, although that is a wonderful receiver. My link was to a Marantz SR4600, which was priced at $279, which makes it a steal. The SR8500 is around a grand, and I am not trying to break your bank. Still, if that's what you want, you won't go wrong. The Harman/Kardons are very good receivers, too. I have not priced Harman/Kardons recently, so I am a bit hazy on the feature set and prices of those models. Nevertheless, the key part of a receiver is its power supply and h/ks have good power supplies. It was the Onkyo that I was suggesting was not worth purchasing. The onkyos power supply is sorely lacking. However, it must be said that 7.1 sound is just a marketing gimmick; no program material is encoded in 7.1 (everything is in 5.1), and budget receivers cannot handle the load very well, even if they have that many outputs. Stick with 5.1 and it will do the job. |
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Silver Member Username: Arande2400dB could probably d..., SouthWest Mi... Too Many DBs... Post Number: 915 Registered: Dec-06 | That brings up a question. Isn't a 7.1 receiver more useful if you want to bi-amp and it has the capability? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 2821 Registered: May-05 | Well to get the Hiss, Hiss, Hiss, Hiss, Hiss, Hiss, sound to circle you without exaggerated changes in the tone, providing you sit steal. You don't what the fronts to sound like hiss, Hiss, hiss, or Hiss, hiss, Hiss, do you! While monitoring the differences via the RTA and SPL db metre it's doable, but you'll need individual graphic equalizers to makes changes in the differences and this can take hours if not days to perform it manually. I wouldn't both with (Auto EQ) too much it will add boosts to certain loudspeakers that are positioned around the room and boosting is a bad! You should always use cuts, and by all means boost the amplification output for each channel again this all takes hour's lots of hours to get this done right. |
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