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Pioneer DV-563A capabilities/comparisons

 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 11
Registered: Jun-04
Hi All,

I have been researching universal DVD Players and wanted to know more about this particular Pioneer unit. I have questions:

- Is the poor Bass Management when playing it in analog mode noticable when playing 5.1 DD/DTS MUSIC discs (200 Hz for DVD-A and 120 Hz for SACD)? If so, are there techniques to fool your hearing so that it is less of a problem? One way I have just thought of is to set Center to small, Front to Large, Surround to Large, and turn ON the subwoofer (this activates Bass Management in the Pioneer) but turn OFF the subwoofer amp. My front speakers are NHT Super Two's and can go down to 35Hz. My Surrounds are NHT Super One's and can go down to 53 Hz. If John A. is correct and the lowest Bass Guitar note is 42 Hz (and we hear mostly the multiples above that (i.e., 84 Hz and up), why do we need a subwoofer for 99% of music DVD-A and SACD discs???

- The new Pioneer DV-578A (now at Best Buy for $141 until Saturday, list price $149) has similar capabilities. However, on the AudioCircles forum, a guy named Alex says:

"Just picked up a fresh (and still warm) 578A-s from BB.

"The BAD news: It is much cheaper than 563A. The mod I have going on 563A is impossible to implement on the 578A. Whoever wants 563A, please call www.crutchfield.com immediately! They have about 50 units left and they are on clearance sale. The last bad/good news is that DV578A converts SACD (DSD) to 88.2 PCM at all times.

"The GOOD news: After the initial disappointment with the little junk, I've come to, I would say, a very good idea. Since the machine still uses Pioneer's best transport which is extremely reliable, I thought that it would make it a really good transport. Every one of you who has a 192/24 capable outboard DAC will be able to experience higher resolution audio from SACD, DVD-A and DAD. Same applies for all the guys having all digital systems at home - Panasonic XR45, XR50, Tact Audio, etc. The 578A is using extensive data buffering that eliminates the jitter from the transport."

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=11097&postdays=0&postorder=as c&start=0

Is the Pioneer DV-578A watered-down in the SACD conversion and has cheaper power supply but fixes the Bass Management problem??? BTW, I checked the logo at Best Buy of the DTS label (on the front of the machine) and it is the same as the 563A ("DTS, Surround"), whereas the more expensive Samsung sitting next to them had a DTS symbol of "DTS, Digital-Out". I believe this means that the Samsung does NOT include a DTS decoder but both Pioneer models DO.

- The British mag, Home Cinema Choice (Dec. 2003) measured the audio jitter at 183.7 ps which they rate as "Excellent". They also comment that the player is an excellent CD player with "crisp and uncoloured" playback. Does this mean that I really don't have to keep another CD player hanging around my shelf?

Any comments/suggestions would be appreciated. I have a very limited budget and do not want to spend more than $200 on a piece of technology that is changing so fast.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 12
Registered: Jun-04
An updated answer from a guy who makes his living making modifications to audio/video equipment:
****************
"Sorry about the confusion! 563A DOES NOT convert DSD to PCM, it is a true DSD machine. The 578A "junk" converts DSD to 88.2/24 PCM and I agree, they should have gone for at least 176.4/24 conversion. Anyway, the analog filter spec for DSD calls for 50KHz cut off (which I don't like), so I think the theoretical 44.1KHz bandwith for the 88.2 PCM conversion is close enough. In any case, it will allow all guys with all digital systems to enjoy higher resolution out of DSD compared to redbook. After all, it provides about 3 times higher quality - 88.2 KHz vs 44.1KHz and 16 bit vs 24 bits.

Regards,
_________________
Alex Peychev
APL Hi-Fi"
*****************

To my feeble brain, it seems that the DV-563A is truly a bargain and that Pioneer stuffed too much good electronics into it. It must have been cannibalizing their mid-level players, so they decided to discontinue it. The DV-578A seems to use cheaper parts, DACs, etc.

Anyone have any thoughts? One of my local Best Buy stores still has 4 or 5 of them left at $129. Maybe I'll pick one up.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 137
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,
I have the 563-A attached to an NAD T742 with last year's PSB Image line speakers. I did a bit of reading up on this model prior to purchasing it. For a player that listed at US$249, it was getting fairly decent reviews. When a local shop advertised two factory recons for $99 ea, I took a chance and picked one of them up. I've only picked up about 6 DVD-A's, (actually 5 plus a DTS 5.1 cd). The sound, even from this cheap player, is head and shoulders above what I would have expected.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 14
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

Thanks for your comments. I actually went out to Best Buy and got one for $117 to try out. They said I could get a refund in 30 days if I did not like it. It was marked down on clearance and it was also an open box special, so they gave me an extra 10% off. I figure it is almost a throw-away cost if I keep it. And I picked up a Yo-Yo Ma SACD, "Silk Road Journeys". Very interesting sound! Not something I want to play all the time but the clarity and definition are worth buying the machine so far. And I mail-ordered that Bach Magnificat that John A. recommended.

How are you dealing with the poor bass management in DVD-A and SACD??? Do you notice any localization of the bass, or do you hear any mushy imaging??? I consider those crossover frequencies to be too high. I would have liked 80 Hz. Good thing my surrounds can handle down to 53 Hz - I never did buy into that nonsense that you should buy tiny little speakers with a gigantic subwoofer, that kind of thinking seemed way too unbalanced to me. Kind of like saying to a first-time car buyer to buy a tiny car but put a hugh engine inside (dangerous and unstable)!

However, I did not like the assessment by that guy Alex of the replacement model (DV-578A) being flimsy in a number of different areas. So, learning to deal with the 563's limitations could be well worth it!

The video seems to work well also.

BTW, did that hum interaction between your NAD T742 and this DVD Player clear up completely??? I am also testing out a T752 and I had a hum problem but that was due to a bad cable.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 140
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,
To me, its all about expectations. I did not have huge expectations for the 563-A and yet it managed to exceed them. Although I am happy with this player, believe me, I understand its limitations (cheap components, bass management issue, etc...). And I know, full well that My Rantz' Denon 2900 or John A.'s NAD T533 would leave this player in the dust, but I can accept that - perhaps because the money I spent on it would about cover the tax on a Denon 2900 :-)

As far as the bass management, I do agree it could have been handled better, and at no increase in cost. Funny though, some discs could use more low-end kick but others actually sound very good as is. I suspect its the old saying tossed around this forum a lot, "its all about the music."

As far as my noise issue, I never really had a hum problem, though to date I haven't picked up a sub yet. I did have a problem with a high pitched, almost a ringing noise, when both the NAD and 563-A were powered on. This noise continued through DVD movies but strangely was silent during music discs of all kinds. With the first NAD the noise was loud enough to be heard above the quieter dialog during a movie - completely unacceptable. With the NAD I have now, its nearly nonexistant. In fact, come to think of it, I didn't even hear it at all last night.

After you've gotten a few discs to to try out, please post your opinion, I'd be very interested in your observations of your player.
 

Anonymous
 
You should hold off maybe until another budget universal player hits the shelves... the Toshiba SD-4960, which was due out this month, but delivery was held up due to some firmware problems. should be out later this summer. there's a lot of high hopes for this new unit. i have the feeling it will be as good or better than the Pioneer.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 16
Registered: Jun-04
Anonymous,

Thanks for the heads-up about the new Toshiba. I do not think it has hit the stores yet but I did just read up on it and it will have many of the things the Pioneer unit has plus WMA compatibility and their version of 3:2 pulldown. It looks very interesting and the press release at the CES show says that their emphasis is for the new line of DVD Players to push the video envelope, so to speak.

My emphasis is audio, so I am not sure the Tosh would be my first choice. One thing I noticed that it leaves out is a DTS decoder built-in. Other low end players are leaving this out, too. While at Best Buy, the Pioneer models were sitting next to a new Samsung. The Samsung had the logo "DTS Digital-Out", which, I think, means that it does not have that decoder built-in. I think that is a shame and it gives me more evidence that companies are introducing low end players with less features and cheaper parts so as not to cannibalize their mid-range offerings. I am going to guess that the 4960 will be the same way, else they would have mentioned a DTS decoder like in the past press releases.

For me, it looks like the 563A is still the low-end winner. I never bought into the marketing that said we should have intsy-bitsy surround speakers, therefore I can take full advantage of that limitation. The 563A also allows distance settings to work in SACD mode as well as the others. I don't remember a low end machine that can do that, perhaps the Toshiba will. Also, that guy Alex I quoted above says that the 563A is a true DSD (SACD) machine, not converted down to PCM like so many rumors have said. He also said that is has a great transport and can be modified at a later date to be used with an external processing board. I guess resolutions will always be getting faster and better.

Do you have a DVD-A/SACD capable player? Do you like it?

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 17
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

I am very glad to hear that your T742 - 563A combo is working out after so much research and struggle. When it does work out, there is a nice feeling of satisfaction! I'll let you and others know about the music, it certainly is great sound.

As far as my T752 testing with the Pioneer, I have not had any hissing/screeching problems. I have had some other issues not related to the Pioneer that I may start a new thread and entitle is something like, "Checklist for new NAD receivers". If I have the time. The Pioneer seems to be working flawlessly, although I am having trouble getting the Pan & Scan feature to work. It is my understanding (faulty?) that a Widescreen video will be re-sized for a 4:3 TV automatically by the DVD Player if it is set to that?

Just to mention to anyone reading, I read the Audioreview.com customer reviews of the 563A and it seemed mostly positive. The ones who did not like it seemed to have small speakers or had high-end systems (with high-end expectations, the opposite of what you mentioned).

Whatever. I'll just keep listening and evaluating. I may listen to a couple of others but I feel like I want to maintain both DVD-A and SACD capability. I did not feel very strongly about the current DVD-A music titles but that gets into a different discussion.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 20
Registered: Jun-04
How to check the ROM version on the DV-563A. Supposedly, the latest ROM fixes the problem with reading certain DVD-A discs:

http://www.jvb.nl/jvb.asp?cur=1&level=accessoires&page=title&title=186

****************
Another quote from Alex Peychev about the capabilities of the 563A. I don't know if this stuff is verified nor the quality of his modification work, just passing it along.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=8790

"Hello All!

"I have decided to introduce my latest and most affordable mod based on the Pioneer DV-563A-s (which is exactly the same as Pioneer Elite DV-50).

"Background:

"The most important factor in selecting a mod base when it comes to Digital Players for me is the transport and the Digital Signal Processing. Given that, the Pioneer 563A makes one of the best bases to build on.

"Why is that?

"Starting from the transport, it has a stepped tracking motor for extremely fast and accurate laser pick up tracking. It also comes with a high torque 3 phase brushless, slotless spindle motor. This is very important and far superior to the usual DC motors which are really noisy and have poor reliability.

"Next comes the Servo control which is based on DSP as well. This is a common approach for most of the manufacturers as the days of the Analog Servo systems ended about 10 years ago. So we have a nice and super fast Digital Servo.

"The DSP of the Pioneer is really advanced. It is built around STi ASIC which provides many functions - MPEG processing with progressive scan, Dolby Digital, DTS, MLP (DVD-A) decoding and data expansion from 16 bit to 24 bit for redbook CD. This DSP uses 128 Mbit of external SDRAM which buffers (not compressed buffering) and re-clocks the data from all PCM sources. This practically eliminates jitter and the need of "Super Clocks".

"The SACD decoding is done with the latest and greatest Philips second generation SACD decoder - my favorite.

"The DAC is one of the latest developments by Burr Brown DSD-1791. It is a nice little DAC. I don't like it as much as my all times favorite Crystal DACs, but it comes really close."

*****************

From the March 9th thread on 563A mods, apparently the 563A does DSD to PCM conversion in MultiChannel only when Bass Management is engaged. Maybe I'll shut off Bass Management and see if the SACD sounds better.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=8790&postdays=0&postorder=asc &start=30

"Hi Rob,

"Well, I don't really know who came up with the idea that DSD is converted to PCM in the Pioneer. This can be true only when we talk about Multi Channel with bass management engaged. Then you have DSD to PCM conversion. When it comes to Stereo and MC without bass management, the machine does PURE DSD. The three DACs in the unit feature DSD and PCM separate ports too. So, forget about the rumors. Those also might be true with the older Pioneer players. Again, no such thing with DV-563, DV-50 and DV-59Avi."

****************
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 144
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,
Thanks for the tip. I didn't read the details until this evening...after I purchased the Gaucho DVD-A by Steely Dan. When it wouldn't play, I remembered your post and took a closer look. It seems I have the older firmware on my player, 1.906 is the updated f/w and mine is 1.706. I sent a note to the Pioneer support address and we'll see where it goes from here.

One good thing is the local dealer where I bought it, (it was a recon unit - you'd think it would have been upgraded during recon), told me they would stand behind it as if it were a brand new unit - 1 year warranty instead of the 3 month recon warranty. I just hope, if I have to send it out, it doesn't take too long.

Thanks for the link!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 21
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

Thanks and yes, I have the 1.706 firmware also. So, I will be sending my unit into Pioneer for the free update (assuming I keep the one I am testing). The four left at Best Buy are all pre-Feb.2004.

I am still working on clarification of avoiding the DSD-to-PCM conversion while playing SACD in Multichannel, as the post above mentions turning off bass management. No luck so far but it is just a matter of getting Alex to clarify what settings are needed. I have been told different things by different people and I would rather let the expert speak at this point.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 146
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,

Excellent. Please share what you learn.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 26
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

Here is the latest quote from Alex Peychev:
"It is a true DSD machine in Stereo and if you use it in 5.1 mode without the bass management, which means your speaker setup should be "large" not "small". " He also quoted me in his reply which means he fully read my question and setup info.

So, I guess it is as simple as setting all speakers to Large. He does not seem to have the time to go into more detail and I do not feel I want to bother him anymore about it. In other words, I don't know if setting distance or subwoofer settings has any effect - probably not reading his response. He has said the same thing twice ('shutting off bass management') without any further explanation which tells me he does not want to talk about it any further.

So, try setting speakers to Large and play a multichannel SACD. Then set, say the Center channel to Small, and play the exact same multichannel recording. Let me know if you hear a difference. I just tried it on a vocal (Blue Bossa by Ana Caram) and I think I can hear a difference (more air between instruments, cleaner sounding harmonics) but I will have to try other recordings in order to tell. It seems subtle and I don't want my brain to fool itself into hearing something that isn't there.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 158
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,

Thanks for the update. I've experimented a bit with my setup and because I don't have a sub yet, I have set all 5 speakers to large. It just sounds better to me this way. I haven't tried setting the center only, to small. I'll try that and let you know.

BTW, Tuesday afternoon I dropped off my 563A at the shop where I bought it and they've sent it off for the firmware upgrade. I called earlier today to see what the status is and its looking like, because of the 4th of July holiday, it may not get back to me until the middle of next week, (understandable). The salesman apologized for the delay and told me to stop by and pick out a loaner to use in the mean time. This dealer has been top rate in my eyes. They do a fair amount of online business, maybe a majority - not sure. Check them out at:
http://www.audioclassics.com/
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 628
Registered: Dec-03
good stuff guys.

yah i picked up my player quite a while ago when
i was just wandering into best buy to see what they
had in the way of universal players.

and this was the only one they had. but i figured
for $140 it could be nice. and if it played my
burnt media then hey a nice bonus as my toshiba
had trouble.

well to say the least i was very happy with the
performance of the machine. and no trouble with
copied media, plays everything i throw at it!

and i was pleasently surprised by the majority of
the good press i found.

but i have 2 setups. my surround/movies the 563a

and my 2 channel the denon 2200.

i tested both in the surround room and found the
denon to be slightly better on both sound and video.
but certainly not that big of a difference.so yah
the pioneer in my mind is an excelent bairgan.

i have not checked my firmware yet but i'm sure it's
older.
i do have one dvd-a that it won't play, well actually
it is kinda strange it plays but no sound.neil
youngs greendale.

has anyone found out if we could do this firmware
upgrade our selves? sometimes all you have to do
is put in a cd that will update it.

also i have full range speakers all around and my
dvd player is set to all speakers large. but i could
experiment and see if it makes any difference with
other settings.

i actually have toyed with the idea of having my
player modified/updated and sense i have the denon
i wouldn't really miss the unit for awhile.

so when i get a chance i will look at the mod links
you posted golden.

have you seen or heard anyone having their player
modded and any feedback?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 629
Registered: Dec-03
hey golden just curious why you are so interested
in the player having a dts decoder built in.

when i play anything dts or dolby digital i use
the coax digital out and let my reciever do the
processing instead of the dvd player.and i have
to so i get dts and dd 7.1 from my reciever.

so in my mind if you have a good reciever their
is no need for dts decoding in the player.
and if it can keep the cost of the player down
even better.


i have an hk525 7.1 reciever that has very good dacs
that i'm pretty darn sure are better than the ones
in the 563a so why would i want the dts decoder
in their.

not trying to discredit you or anything just wondering
if maybe their is something i am missing!

thanks!
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 3
Registered: Jun-04
There could be a major advantage with internal decoder: DTS 96/24. My receiver doesn't handle it, but I am wondering if perchance my DV565A (EU model) does? First listenings to 94/24 sounded pretty much like standard DTS. But the other day run decryption Queen's DVD-V GH I and II (I do this sometimes just to see if there is some extra bitrate to lurk out). DTS mode sounded su much better than PCM tracks on analogue outs, so I started to believe... Anybody has checked this out?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 31
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

Good review of your setup. I think it fortunate that you only have one DVD-A disc that won't play. It was a little sketchy but I think the firmware update needs to replace a chip at a Pioneer regional center. They will do it for free within warranty. The site I have posted for some reason charges $75. I guess that is for people who have already ruined their warranty by modding the machine.

The only feedback I have read about modding was that AudioCircles, APL Hifi thread and it costs a lot of money. The guy Alex is supposed to be a super wiz at these things and seems to know everything. He is just so hard to get a hold of because of the huge backlog. You'll have to check out that set of threads for APL Hifi and make your own decision. A number of people rave about his mods.

If you have time to experiment with the Pioneer settings, try just changing one parameter, like the center channel to Small or even just one surround. I thought I heard a lessening of the "air" or transparency, like someone had just put a thin veil over the whole music. I sure don't want to be making up something that cannot really be discerned by the human ear. Also, the particular recording might make a difference. If the mix or re-mix did not use the full capabilities of DSD (192k resolution), we might not be able to tell a difference.

As far as DTS decoders, I could be very wrong with my understanding, so please correct me if I need it! I thought that if a recording is DVD-A AND is DTS encoded, that, to get the very best resolution (the full 192k spec for DVD-A), one should use the highest resolution audio DACs. If one's A/V receiver has the older 96k DACs and the DTS recording was encoded with the full 192k resolution, then won't it only resolve to 96k?

Another reason is that I like DTS better than any of the DD recordings I have heard so far, so I am wanting to have the highest resolution power in my favorite decoding method.

Thirdly, it is cheaper to buy a new DVD Player than it is to can the whole receiver. Higher res DACs come out on DVD Players sooner, also, than on receivers. So, I thought it would be cheaper to concentrate on the DVD Player DAC than worry about trying to get the latest DAC in a receiver.

I believe that DSD (SACD) is its own format and never uses DD or DTS decoding and needs its own way to "decode" the signal to make it usable by the amps. But I thought that DVD-A needs to use DD or DTS in order to get the PCM bits to "decode" the surround info. I dunno, maybe DVD-A is like DSD in that it does not need a DD or DTS decoder?

Anyway, I think the main point is that many older receivers still only have 96k audio DACs and may not be using the full resolution power of the inherent recorded disc. So, I figured that a Burr-Brown 192k DAC in the Pioneer would sound better than a receiver's 96k DAC. I'll have to look up my new NAD T752 and see what Crystal DACs it uses, the T742 uses 96k and the T762 uses 192k but I cannot find what the T752 uses yet.

I believe you are correct when it comes to audio on a DVD-V, like music videos and such, because the spec for DVD-V only goes up to 96k for audio not matter what. Therefore, one could use a receiver's 96k DACs with impunity for DTS. But you have 192k DACs, so it is a non-issue for you.

Please let me know if I am wrong! I'll stop now, because I am starting to confuse myself, I think. :-)

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 32
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold,

No, I have not checked out using DTS 96/24 out the analog. However, I am just now listening/watching Diana Krall's DVD-V out the analog ports. I would have to do an A/B test to compare analog to coax, maybe I'll get around to it later this week.

Also, what do you mean by "run decryption"??? I am just a regular user of this media, I never have wanted to decrypt anything, so the idea is new to my experience.

Perhaps your receiver is adding something to the processing that the 565 is not adding, therefore not changing the original bit stream? Maybe you know the answer to my question in the previous posting: On a DVD-A disc, does DTS use the DVD-A PCM bits or is DTS stored on the disc separately?

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 636
Registered: Dec-03
i think for the most part you are correct in your
thinking that the decoder in the dvd player is
going to be better than an older reciever and less
expensive than a new reciever.

and i see now where you are coming from with the
96k dacs.

but like you said it's a mute issue for me because
my hk has quality 192's.

but if i'm understanding you correctly you say
you need a built in dts decoder to decode dvd-a
dts music. and if so i believe you are wrong.
"in the dvd player"

i'm pretty sure as long as you can do dvd-a multi
output analog and sacd multi output analog it does
not matter if you have a dts decoder it will decode
all music that dvd-a or sacd disks have on them
whether it has a dts decoder or not.

i'm not 100% on this but believe that's the way it is.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 33
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

I was wrong about the resolution of both DD and DTS (lossy compression). They default to 48k and a DTS disc has to explicitly state "96/24" on the package and one has to have a DTS decoder somewhere to use it. So the music on a DVD-Video will be at 48k/20 or 24 bit. If it is DD, then it can stuff more extras onto the disc but not sound as good as a DTS video because of the extra lossy compression.

The music on a DVD-A can take advantage of 96k/24 bit MLP encoding (lossless) in 6 channels. SACD can also resolve to 96k/24. Only MLP on a DVD-A can take advantage of 192k/24 and ONLY in stereo. SACD cannot go to 192k/24.

Here is where I got the info:

http://www.surroundassociates.com/fqmain.html#2.5.1

The chart a page down is helpful.

So, we were both partly right and partly wrong. We can fully take advantage of multichannel audio with a 96k receiver DAC using a DTS 96/24 disc. But one has to have a DTS decoder somewhere, either in the player or the receiver in order to use anything encoded in DTS, the player will not automatically know what to do with it. The article did not state explicitly, but that is an advantage, I think, of DTS in that DVD-A and SACD can only be used through the analog outputs. You can choose digital output when using DTS (its still lossy compression, though). I'll have to find a 96/24 DTS disc and test out that theory. I feel cheated though that my music videos only resolve the audio portion to 48k, but I guess they can't fit 96k audio and DVD video on the same disc.

The way the Pioneer 563 handles SACD is still a separate issue because it converts the signal to PCM at 88.2k w/bass mgmt.(according to Alex), not 96k.

Quite an educational evening.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 644
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow.

i know if your trying to play a straight dts track
you need a decoder in either the player or the reciever.
that has a dts decoder.

but i'm still not sure what else excactly you are
saying.

if you are saying that if you have a dvd-a track
that was recorded in dts than you need a dts decoder
in the player to have it come out the 5.1 analog
outs. then i will need to read more on that because
my understanding is you don't.

because your not decoding the dts your decoding
the dvd-a that just happened to of been recorded
in dts.

it's like if you have a movie that was originally
recorded in dts at the theatre but your playing it
in dolby digital. it's a dolby digital track that
happened to of been recorded in dts. so you only
need the dolby digital decoder.this is a poor example
but i think it gets my point accross.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 4
Registered: Jun-04
Hi guys, this thread is getting more and more interesting... I have a family gathering today, so just two things by now:

DTS 96/24 can be found on both DVD-A and DVD-V. Just as std DTS, it is a separate track. More and more titles available where I live, OLE!. DTS Entertainment website provides a good introduction to the format.

Decrypting a DVD-A or DVD-Disc: Many discs prohibits 96/24 digital out (copy protect issue), but I've discover that decrypter removes this restriction. LPCM track only of course, DVD-A and MLP untouchable.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 5
Registered: Jun-04
Yes, DTS and DVD-A can be based on same hi-rez LPCM recording. But there are fundamental differences in terms of digital treatment and transfer. DTS 96/24 is a separate file in DVD-V domain, and as such it can be available also on DVD-A disc.

Whilst DVD-A is out of scope for S/PDIF, DTS 96/24 was constructed to reduce bitrate, keeping it within S/PDIF range (2x96x24 kbps). I think we can assume DTS 96/24 to be lossy, compression rate is higher than MLP's 1:2.

DTS 96/24 was unfortunately not implemented on a broad basis in receivers until very recently. If your receiver does not carry logo "DTS|ES|96/24", it most probably decodes according to std DTS algoritm (96/24 is fully backward compatible). It doesn't matter if channel DACs are 96/24 or even 192/24, the more recent DTS algorithm has to be there too.

DTS 96/24 is not really competing with DVD-A, but for concert videos it's surely a plus. So for us who own non-DTS 96/24 receivers the hope stands to DVD player. Up to this day haven't seen any player bearing the mentioned logo. But DVD565A surely has the necesary silicone to do the decoding. Question is: is it implemented?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 651
Registered: Dec-03
yah my hk does "DTS|ES|96/24" so that is why the
decoder in the player didn't really matter to me.

even though both the denon2200 and the 563a that
i own have them built in.

but i can see how many people if they don't have newer
recievers can benifet from the player with it.

the major problem i have using the decoder in the
player versus using the decoder in the reciever is
that my reciever is 7.1 and i have it setup that
way but if i use the multi analog ins i don't get
my reciever using it's decoder for the other 2 channels.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 6
Registered: Jun-04
Mr. K, I envy your hk. It's the new series, no? Rarely seen in stores on the Iberian peninsula.

You'd say DV563 has DTS 96/24 built in, or just DTS? Any hint on where to check 'tis out?

Thanks
AL




 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 657
Registered: Dec-03
arnold i don't have an awnser for.

"You'd say DV563 has DTS 96/24 built in, or just DTS? Any hint on where
to check 'tis out?"

sorry.

i was just stating that both of my dvd players
have dts decoding built in but i didn't need it.
because my reciever does.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 34
Registered: Jun-04
I believe the 563 and 565 use 192k DACs and the DTS decoder can only take advantage of 96k because that is the standard rez for 5.1 channel playback. I think it is only when you get to 6.1 and 7.1 playback that you need to have 192k algorithms (DTS-EX and DTS-discrete). I don't have any proof of this, just a deduction from other info.

And I disagree that DTS is not competing with DVD-A. Check out this web link I got from the dtsonline web site:

http://www.sr.se/multikanal/english/e_index.stm

You can download 5.1 channel DTS recordings from Swedish Radio, burn them to a regular CD-R, then pop it into your regular DVD player (not DVD-A) and have the receiver decode the DTS bits. Haven't tried it yet but I'll let you know how it sounds when I get the chance. It could be a lower rez than a "96/24". My guess is that I'll be able to play it out the coax connection instead of being forced to only use the analog connections with DVD-A and SACD. Then I can use the receiver's DSP and bass management.

So maybe Kegger is right, having a DTS decoder built into the player is redundant.

And I think, Kegger, we still disagree on how DTS works but it will take more research or maybe an expert to answer it for sure. I think of DD and DTS being very similar, just using different compression schemes. So, are you saying that DVD-A encoded in MLP does not use either DD or DTS decoders? You could be right if that is what I am hearing you say.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 35
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold,

What is "S/PDIF" and why is it relevant in defining the contraints upon 96/24 playback? I have seen it mentioned briefly in places but I never did look into what it is.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 659
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow:

"So, are you saying that DVD-A encoded in MLP does not use either DD or DTS decoders? You could be right if that is what I am hearing you say. "

yes that is what i think.
but like you said i am not completely sure.

but that has been what i thought i heard from other sources.

otherwise like you said you would nead a dts decoder
in the player to play a dvd-a disk that was
recorded in dts.

but i hadn't heard of any of the dvd-a players that
couldn't play a dvd-a disk because it was recorded in dts.

and i researched quite a few players before i bought
the denon. and some of them had no dts decoder built in.

like said i'm not saying that for sure you are
wrong, just that has been what i was lead to believe.

and i agree we could use more comfrimation on this.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 36
Registered: Jun-04
FYI - The encoding on those downloaded files is only 1.5 Mbs, way below the maximum for both DVD-V and DVD-A, so it is not going to sound as good as a real 96/24 recording.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 38
Registered: Jun-04
Just bought The Eagles, Hell Freezes Over on DTS and it only plays out the analog ports, not the coax. So much for my theory. I guess the record companies are contrained by anti-piracy concerns. Its a very well done recording even though I think it is only 48k/24 bit.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 160
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,

Hmmm, that's interesting. Are you sure you have the digital output set to on for the 563A? I can't imagine them limiting the playing to only dvd players that decode dts, when some of the older dvd players are able to pass the signal to a receiver to decode.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 7
Registered: Jun-04
Funny coincidence that sr.se link, as I was born in Sweden... Havent't downloaded'em yet, my DSL is so crappy. How does it sound?

Anyway, when I say DTS cannot compete with DVD-A, I mean in terms of bit rate and resolution. I fully agree on DTS being convenient for downloads from Internet or transfer via S/PDIF.

S/PDIF is short for Sony/Philips Digital Interface. It's another name for the coaxial RCA-RCA digital interconnect. Optical version a.k.a. Toslink, where "Tos" means Toshiba. Transfer protocol specs impose the "2x96x24 kbps" restriction. Unfortunately industry standard by now. But some alternatives are on the way, capable of handling more bps.

BTW: DD, DTS and MLP are competing formats. There is no point in combining them, outcome would be equal to the lossiest. Therefore they are found as separate, alternative tracks.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 8
Registered: Jun-04
Just one more thing: there is no contradiction between 96/24 DACs and DTS-ES, DD-EX. My receiver does a fine job on these tracks. The problem is just DTS 96/24.

The latter is rather a DSP limitation. I.e. of the chip that decodes source signal and distribute it among DACs. Mr. K's hk has surely a 32 bit DSP, whereas I suffer the older 24 bit technology.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 39
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold,

Very interesting info. I knew intuitively that the current coax/optical connection was somehow constrained by industry agreements. Now we know what that is, thanks! I think the new, new thing is called HDMI and it should allow encrypted audio and video through one port. I *hope* there will be a way to connect an HDMI output to my NAD receiver. It only has the old S/PDIF & Toslink connectors but it does have 7.1 analog input.

BTW, I had a bad cable. Once I replaced it, I CAN play the Eagles "Hell Freezes Over" through the coax. It is nice to know that I now have the choice of bypassing the poor bass management in the 563 player, at least with DVD music videos and DTS audio discs (and that the receiver DACs and DSP is up to the task). I am still trying to find out what model of DACs and DSP are in my NAD T752 but it sounds better through the NAD (coax) than the Pioneer 563 (analog). For some reason, the Pioneer will not use the center channel even though the settings are set to Audio Output: 5.1 Channel, and the Speaker Installation: all Large, Sub ON. Any ideas???

I tried to download a SR file but I don't think I did it right, I just get pink noise from either coax or analog. I'll try later in the week.

Regarding formats, it seems that convenience is the biggest consumer acceptance factor. If there is no way to take the music with you, then people will not buy enough of it to build an industry standard. Too bad, since DVD-A is theoretically superior to SACD and there doesn't seem to be anything holding DTS back except disc size. I seem to be happy enough with 96/24 for now whatever format it comes in. I only brought up the DTS alternative because I like choice and I like to see competition to SACD. Its not right that Sony/Philips try to own the whole world and monopolize everything from recording artist contracts to hardware in our homes. It will be interesting to see if downloading DTS files will become the next biggest legal issue.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 692
Registered: Dec-03
just a fyi.

i have this cheryel crow dts 6.1 es descrete disk.

now i can play it through the analog outs but i get
5.1 surround.

but if i go through the dvd player out the coax
digital output my reciever decodes it as 61 dts es
descrete and runs it at 7.1 from their.

just to show how you can advantage going that way!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 40
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

I checked my connections after I had just removed some cables and, duh, I had swapped the center and sub connections on the Pioneer. The center works now.

Kegger,

I can't play 6.1 yet cause I am ordering a cable to hook up but that is great that we can use it in DTS. Technology is moving quickly, makes me wonder when 5.1 connections on DVD players will seem antiquated!

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 14
Registered: Jun-04
Glad to hear discrete 6.1 is finding it's way to music videos. For movies it really makes a difference, even when just matrix splitting 5 to 6 for a non-extended soundtrack. Reckon it adding lots of 'I was there' feeling to concert DVDs, no?

Regarding HDMI, it's said to be DVI but encrypted for copy protection. According to magazines, DVD-A and SACD is not yet within specs. But consortium is believedo include it some time this year. Unfortunately, there is little hope for compatibility with older receivers. Converting HDMI/analogue wouldn't do any good, just another D/A step in the middle. And S/PDIF is a bottleneck wherever it appears. I myself will just eventually upgrade speakers by now, and wait with the rest until there is a digital link for both DVD-A and SACD untouched.

Cheers
AL
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 738
Registered: Dec-03
yes arnold i have told many a people about the difference
7.1 makes even on 5.1 tracks.

i have actually even done a little experiment that
seems to be working. i took the rear outputs from
the dvd player's analog out and split each right
and left signal into 2 then those go into the rear
inputs of the reciever's sacd/dvd-a inputs and the surrounds.

meaning that my reciever has 8 inputs not just 6
and now i am using all 8. i have the surrounds
slightly lower in output than the rears."to make
it a little more natural sounding"

also since i run external amps on my reciever in
the rear's and surrounds i have 2 sets of each
speaker and i took 1 set of my rears and moved
them more towards the outside actually equal distance
from rears and surrounds. (the ones that are on
the reciever)

and when i listen to music i leave the external
amps for the rears and surrounds off.but when i
crank up movies i turn the rear and surround
external amps on.

i'm sure it's hard to follow what i'm saying and
some probably don't care but i was just trying to
show with a little creativity you can make the rear
portion of your music surround sound better/fuller.
without hurting the intent of your movie sound
having descrete rear channels or matrixed for that matter.
because i now have my speakers placed in just the right
position for both movies and music. "in my mind"
to end up having at least 4 speakers in the rear
section at all times instead of just 2.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 169
Registered: Mar-04
Finally got my 563A back from getting the firmware upgrade. Happy to report it now plays Steely Dan's "Gaucho" DVD-A - and it sounds great.

It took a bit longer than I expected to get it back, good thing for the loaner deck. But all in all it was worth the wait.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 43
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

So glad to hear you got your player back. Seems like Pioneer is relatively honest and efficient to deal with. I'll have to send in my unit, too. I guess that means I am keeping it although I was really tempted to order a refurbished Denon DVD-2200 from ecost.com (its a great machine). But I cannot hear any problems with the Pioneer, its a great intro into higher res formats. I must keep reminding myself of something I believe to be true, that technology changes so quickly, I would rather not put too much money into those pieces of equipment that I can change in two years for the same price with more, improved features. The Pioneer 563 was only on the market for about 11 months before it was discontinued, amazingly short.

I used the extra money to upgrade some cables. As Kegger suggested, I looked into the Acoustic Research product line and it is very impressive (double or triple shielding, nitrogen-flushed foam dielectric, etc.). I am talking about the new AR Pro II series which can be bought through buy.com:

http://www.buy.com/retail/searchresults.asp?ra=p01%2Czc01%2Cmm01%7Ems01%2Cmp01%2 C&alpha2=&alpha=&csel=&mfgid=0&orderby=1&pagereq=1&pas=p01%2Czc01%2Cmm01&qu=acou stic+research+pro+cable&querytype=&search_store=8&nt=&cscat=1&showcats=&als=3&lo c=111&sku=&p01=&zc01=&mm01=

One of their main warehouses is only 20 minutes from where I live, so I usually get things the next day, sometimes free shipping and no tax and a pretty hefty discount!

goldenarrow

 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 44
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold and Kegger,

To get back to something about DTS "96/24" recordings, I got this word from NAD customer support:
=====
Thank you for your recent request via the NAD Electronics web-site. I spoke with technical services regarding your questions, and here is their input:

The T752 will work with DTS 96/24 signals, but it will only decode it at 48k.

Best regards,

Karen Pritchard
=====

So, it seems that I am out of luck to use the full 96k resolution for the DTS "96/24" discs. It will still play, which is to DTS' credit since they made the 96/24 discs "backwards compatible" to DTS decoders that could only decode to 48k (the DVD-V standard for audio). And apparently there is no firmware upgrade. I assume the same is true with ANY player or receiver that does NOT have the "DTS 96/24" logo. I suppose, to be thorough, I should contact Pioneer tech support AND DTS tech support but I don't think I feel that motivated right now. I think I'll put on a disc and enjoy the music!

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 170
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,

Thanks. What you say is exactly how I feel. Sure I'd like to own the DVD-2200 (or even something nicer), but I was able to pick up the 563A for under $100. I think its a very nice bridge to something better in the future. It should allow me to grow my hi-rez collection at a faster rate than if I had spent considerably more on a player.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 17
Registered: Jul-04
What a great discussion. Unfortunately I couldn't understand most of it. Can someone give me the short and sweet for dummies version?

For instance - turn off bass management and set speakers to Large. Any other basic things to do to improve sound?

Thanks

One day I will reread it and understand it all.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 18
Registered: Jul-04
What a great discussion. Unfortunately I couldn't understand most of it. Can someone give me the short and sweet for dummies version?

For instance - turn off bass management by setting speakers to Large. Any other basic things to do to improve sound?

Thanks

One day I will reread it and understand it all.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 172
Registered: Mar-04
Donald,

There's some good basic bass management information found here http://www.hometheatermag.com/bootcamp/101/

There's tons of good information found throughout this forum, read at your own pace and as it sparks specific questions, don't hesitate to ask. I was a complete novice when I stumbled onto this site. Now I'm just a novice. :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 51
Registered: Jun-04
Donald,

I would echo Sem's words. Take your time! Make incremental improvements over time. Also, beware of salesmen selling you overpriced cables and speakers! You should definitely listen to things before you buy them.

That is a nice article about bass management. Basically, a subwoofer will allow you to have more control over the lower bass (the sound of a bass guitar and lower, like explosions in movies and lowest organ notes in church music). Then your other speakers could be small, if you want them to be. Some people, like me, have large front Left and Right speakers so that I don't have to rely on the subwoofer all the time for satisfying bass and I like having bass coming at me from 3 directions instead of just one, but it is not mandatory to do this. Large = full range, all the bass and treble. Small means no bass but everything else higher in frequency above the "crossover frequency".

There is a phrase you will read from time to time called WAF = Wife Approval Factor. Are the speakers unacceptably wierd or large? Does all the wiring make her cringe? etc...

This can be an interesting hobby but the costs can get exponential in a hurry, so budget and make plans for everything (but be open minded if you learn something new to change your plans).

For instance, all the hype about 7.1 surround sound is nonsense. We still don't have lots of 5.1 surround sound music discs yet!
Find what makes the most sonic and visual improvements for the limited amount of money you have. If it doesn't improve things, then it is a waste, IMHO.

Another example is cable/wire purchases. I have been using these Radio Shack Gold Series cables on a stereo/5.1 surround system accumulated slowly over about 5 years or so (because I did not know any better). After reading about some comments on this forum, I started getting curious about what I was really getting for my money from Radio Shack. So I looked up their web site and found no real details about how they are made. So, I decided that I have to find out for myself - so I cut one open! My Gawd, what a piece of JUNK. It has only one layer of copper shielding, surrouding a cheap plastic dielectric (the white stuff inside that protects the center wire), and a center conductor that only had 7 tiny strands of copper. YUK! So I ordered some Acoustic Research (thanks KEGGER!) cables from Buy.com and also found a great clearance at a local super discount store for another kind of Acoustic Reasearch cable. I now have a better wiring system for not much money - because of the local clearance I found, only about $6 per individual cable. And this is good quality, dual-shielded, foam dielectric with solid conductor or twisted-pair stranded conductor. (You'll learn what these terms mean over time). If I went to an "audio salon", I would have had to pay probably around $100 or MORE per individual cable. It is not necessary to spend that much when you are just starting out and on a budget. You can buy from Best Buy, Buy.com, Blue Jeans Cable, places like that. And I think Monster Cable is way over-priced. (And the system does sound better in an incremental way, a little more clarity and attack).

Hope this helps. Keep moving forward!

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 794
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow no knock on you or anyone else who
may feel!

"For instance, all the hype about 7.1 surround sound is nonsense. We still don't have lots of 5.1 surround sound music discs yet!"

i strongly disagree on.

for music, at least dvd-audio and sacd yes 5.1
is all you get traditionaly so that is fine.
(mine is modified to use all 7 "rears split")

BUT
what is awsome about 7.1 is that you move your
existing surround speakers forward to the side of
your listening position and then your 2 rear centers
go in the back behind and spread apart 5-9 feet.

that way you create a much fuller demension of sound.

and i don't buy a movie if it's not at least 5.1
and i have well over 150 movies. also any movie
in 5.1 can be played in 7.1 from the reciever.

if you havent seen this setup done properly you
should try and get a listen. i think you will like
what you hear.

but when you say 7.1 is nonsense i'll give you
some slack for music but not movies.

you got the cable thing dead right in my oppinion
and am glad you agree on the acoustic research cable.

goldenarrow this is turning into a very informative
thread!



 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 19
Registered: Jul-04
GREAT NEWS and not so great news.

My Onkyo 501 receiver came today. Now all my cds sound like super audio cds! What a difference compared to my old Sony piece of dung.

I noticed I was about to hook up my SACD/DVD-A player (the fabled Pioneer DV-563A) and noticed I was using the limpest thinnest rca cable I have ever seen. So, I went to Radio Shack.... and bought the gold ones.

They probably help - but I will return them and get some better ones. Any pointers on where to buy on the cheap?

Thanks again. I am listening to a great sounding regular cd I got at a yard sale for maybe a dollar. :-) :-) :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 20
Registered: Jul-04
I looked up my $5 yard sale speakers that are pretty small and found out they are well liked by a lot of people. My WAF went up when she saw the small ones being used for the surround. She didn't mind the medium small Polk on the window sill (think - small apartment). So, now I have 5 speakers hooked up. Sounds alright.

I will have to read the bass management article and look into subwoofers next. This $150 on the onkyo has really encouraged me to upgrade some more - within a budget - as advised.

Any recommendations for a cheap but good subwoofer? The guy at the stereo store where I bought my Paradigms said you have to spend a lot to get a decent sub. Not a very good sales pitch - maybe just an honest guy.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 795
Registered: Dec-03
for cables look up 2 posts from yours at goldenarrow!

glad to hear your happy with the setup!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 52
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

I agree with you on the difference between 7.1 and 5.1. I was only speaking to someone who only had a stereo system experience. Maybe I should have qualified it and said something like, "depending on your comfort level, you can plunge right into 7.1 immediately". I am only up to experimenting with 6.1 at this point. I guess I get a little opinionated when I hear over-the-top statements from marketing types. I can immediately hear a difference between 5.1 and 6.1, so yes, 7.1 is going to be another improvement upon that!

The main problem seems to be that hardware always outpaces software and I think we are only just seeing multichannel interest by Joe/Jane Consumer - and most of it is not being done well and people get less for their sweat equity than they should!

Got to go, later...

 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 53
Registered: Jun-04
Donald,

Check out Acoustic Research web page:

http://www.araccessories.com/Cultures/en-US/Recoton+AR/

See if you like the specs on their Performance and/or Pro cables. Then you can go to Buy.com and search for acoustic research cables, sort by Title and see if you like the prices. They will be better than Best Buy but you have to wait for delivery. You may want to try just ordering a few to see if you like the quality. I NEVER did a proper A/B test between Radio Shack cables and AR cables, so the description I gave you from my story above is from memory. It was an incremental improvement, not a "falling-out-of-my-chair" experience. I still believe that Radio Shack cables are junk though. There are also other opinions about cables and other companies. You have to do some of your own due diligence.

Try Audioholics.com and look up their cable articles. Just one idea.

Later....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 54
Registered: Jun-04
Subs - made my own from parts. Heard good things about Paradigms, Hsu Research, SVS. The Hsu's and SVS's are reasonable in price.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 796
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow so you liked the difference between
5.1 and 6.1 also aye?

i wish we had sacd/dvd-a in that format.

i split my rear channels coming from the dvd player
to plug into my reciever so i get my version of
7.1 sacd/dvd-a.

just used a single female to 2 male rca splitter
going into the recievers 7.1 inputs. from the dvd
rear outputs.



Donald Kelly:
what goldenarrow said " Hsu Research, SVS. The
Hsu's and SVS's are reasonable in price."

those are the 2 best sub manufacturers for the money.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 21
Registered: Jul-04
I just bought some Acoustic Research cables used off Amazon for about the same price as Radio Shack was new. No-Brainer.

The audioholics cable discussions were endless! I just don't want to buy crap. AR seems pretty good.

Thanks for recommendations on subs.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 20
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger, could you perchance give some info on splitting into more speakers?

I would like to divide back surround into two speakers. WAF forced me to bolt sole speaker in ceiling, not in the wall. Took the edge out of DTS-ES. So the idea is to put two of'em on floorstands instead. Problem is, each speaker is 8 Ohm and receiver specs say 6-8 Ohm. Would truly appreciate hints on how to configure.

Cheers
AL
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 807
Registered: Dec-03
my post 2 up from yours explains it.

and no don't put 2 speakers on the same speaker
wire from the reciever. you will more than likely
dammage your reciever.

you just need to split the cabels coming from your
dvd player "the 5.1 analog cables".

you take the rear/surround channels and split each in two.

then if your reciever has the 8 inputs intead of
just the 6 you run them to your reciever.

then the reciever has to have 7.1 outputs so you
hook the speakers accordingly.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 56
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

Thanks for explaining the speaker split. I suspect one could hook up the extra speaker in series with the existing surround speaker, that way the receiver sees an increase in ohms not a dangerous decrease. In series, I mean take the positive from the surround to the negative of the new back speaker, then the positive from there back to the surround speaker. Wouldn't this be better than running a new speaker cable all the way around from the receiver for the new back speaker?

And would this be characterized as 5.1 using an extra pair of speakers in the back? Do you have a 7.1 decoder in your HK? Or am I missing something (quite possible).

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 810
Registered: Dec-03
yes i have a 7.1 decoder in my hk.

so it has 7.1 inputs and 7.1 outputs.

and no i would nut just add anothere in series to give
me another speaker.

if i did not have 7.1 i would not run 7.1.

thats my oppinion!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 22
Registered: Jun-04
Mr K., I'm afraid I can't split 5.1 as you did, since my amp is only 6.1. But the trick might come in handy anyway. I'm thinking of deviating part of DV565A LFE into surround channel. This since I suspect it's LFE goes well above my sub's limit, 100 Hz. Will be carefull though, maybe contact manufacturers.

Actually, the other issue is about amp to speaker. I'm aware of the serial possibility, but expect total 16 Ohms to reduce volume. And in parallel amp would of course burn. Anyone has third solution?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 57
Registered: Jun-04
Arnold,

Do you have a Sub2 channel? If you do, maybe that can be merged into the Surround channel?

Is it safe to take preamp-outs from both the Sub and Surround and merge them and then stuff it back into the Surround channel through the Surround amp inputs??? I would think the channels would interfere with each other somehow.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 58
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

I know why I was confused now. I thought you were just putting speakers together. I am curious how the receiver knows what to do with the 6th and 7th inputs from the DVD Surround analog outputs. Does the HK know how to decode the 6th & 7th channels from the surround channel info? How is the signal changed into a discrete 6th and 7th channel? I am showing my ignorance of 7.1 decoding, do you know of a good web site to read about that? I did not know there were 7.1 decoders and formats out there. This is an interesting question because the Pioneer 563A does not natively support 7.1, so it would be nice to somehow achieve it.

I have hooked up my two PSB Ambient1 (dipole) speakers to my surround channel speakers (in parallel - the NAD can handle 2 ohm loads and I don't play it that loudly anyway) because I was not satisfied with the SuperOne's doing direct radiating. I know this is just the same surround info but it seems to enlarge the surround field in a nice way since the PSB's are in fairly close proximity to the surround speakers and facing a different direction. I might try to find a way to shut off the PSB's when I don't want them in the circuit.

I cannot do what you are doing because my NAD T752 does not have 6th and 7th amps. There are outputs for them but I don't have any extra amps. If I get tired of this arrangement, I can move the PSB's to the 6th and 7th channels and buy a monoblock for the homemade subwoofer. Then I could have true Back Surround speakers. But I am still confused over the 7.1 decoding issue.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 815
Registered: Dec-03
well to start off hear, this is for anyone who
might want to try messing around.

i experimented for quite awhile before i got what
i wanted. and it might not be for everyone!

ok the only way that a reciever is going to decode
6.1/7.1 correctly/at all is coming in the digital
inputs.
and having a 6.1/7.1 reciever!

some movies are in these formats and some d.d or
dts music surround mixes. the cheryl crow i have
is.
i also have the haunting "movie" dts es descrete.
just one of the movies i have in the extended format.

but any movie 5.1 digital input can be played on
a 6.1/7.1 reciever on all channels. the reciever
excstrappalates sounds from the surround channels
and puts them in the rear speakers. like i said i
think it makes the back sound a lot fuller with
the extra speakers. but even better when you actually
have a movie or music that is done in the extended formats.
dolby digital ex:dts es matrix:dts es descrete:

so now i have been listening to my setup in 7.1
for awhile before i got sacd/dvd-a and found i
was yearning for that fuller sound coming from
the back.

so i said hey what if i split the rears and hook
up 7.1 coming in the analog.allright lets try it.

well what i found was i wanted to drop the volume
some on the surrounds and have the rears a little
higher "just sounded more natural than coming from
the side as much" so there is 2 ways to do it.
either just adjust the output from the osd on the
reciever or if you are running external amps turn
the amps down "some are adjustable"

now remember what i said 7.1 setup you move the
surrounds to the side of your listening position
and the rears in the back 5-9 feet apart "experiment"

and yes on sacd and dvd-a both of your surround/
back speakers will produce the same sound "per side"
but coming from 2 speakers instead of one and 2
places so it covers a larger area"which again to
me sounds a lot less thin than originally"


now me personanally i would not combine speakers
or channels together.

i have no problem seperating channels and sending
them to different places/inputs.

and if you have both inputs and preamp outputs on
your reciever their is no end to the combinations
you can try.

i use to run a sub on my center channel preamp
out to a sub amp that powered it.
i also ran an extra pair of rear fender guitar
speakers out the rear preamp out to an amp to
give me better bass in the rear.

so you can try anything you like.

and if anyone has the rear center preamp outputs
on their reciever i would by all means say get an
amp on their and power up some speakers.


anyways to sum it up on a digital input i can have
true 6.1/7.1 surround.

on dvd-a and sacd i made my own modified 7.1 setup
that to me sounds much much better than 5.1.

hear are a couple links that show placement and
some info.

http://www.pantherproducts.co.uk/Articles/Audio/surround_sound2.shtml#7.1%20Chan nel%20Setup



http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/SurroundSound.shtml
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 62
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

The timefordvd site was the most informative. It says that DD-EX and DTS-ES are not real 6.1 but are 5.1 with an extra "matrix" channel. The only real 6.1 format is DTS 6.1 Discrete. I guess with your HK receiver, it probably has its own proprietary 7.1 decoding.

The good news for me is that true 7.1 formats are not widespread yet, so I don't feel I am losing out much. So my goal is to use the DD-EX or DTS-ES to sound as close to a discrete 6.1 as possible, even though I do not have that kind of decoder. This might change how I play with the speakers, your technique of splitting line-level signals might come in handy.

And I hear you about hooking up speakers to each other, I have been duly warned. You are right, most amps would fry if they tried doing what I am doing.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 64
Registered: Jun-04
Donald,

On July 13th, you said that you had a Sony receiver that the Onkyo replaced. What model Sony was it? A little over a month ago, after joining this forum and interacting with folks here, I decided to upgrade some part of my system. I had noticed that the tinnitus in my right ear was aggrivated everytime I listened to my two year old Sony A/V receiver (DE885, a nice unit with lots of nice features and 100 watt x 5 channels). I could not discern a problem with it though. I ended up bringing home a NAD T752 and experienced something quite similar to yours, that my CD's, FM radio, etc all of a sudden sounded better. And better yet, the tinnitus in my ear decreased by about 75%! Quite an surprising result. I immediately got rid of the Sony.

So, I wonder what it is about these Sony receivers that have nice specs but have no guts when it comes to actually making sound reproduction??? The amps must be cheap off the shelf IC circuits that distort as soon as a signal is applied to them. I like it that my NAD weighs almost twice as much as the old Sony.

I was curious because one of my reasons for starting this thread was to show the world that one can have great sounding equipment if one just starts investigating and listening carefully. Joe/Jane Consumer is getting ripped off big time by not doing so! And yet it is the competition from cheaper equipment that keeps the price higher for the better stuff due to economies of scale and such. If more people like us stop accepting the stuff thrown at us at places like Walmart, then there might be better quality for all of us???

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC

Post Number: 27
Registered: Jul-04
Interesting story goldenarrow. I don't have tinnitus and my hearing loss is high frequency and fairly mild. I have some friends who have much more problem hearing than I do. My doctor did not think it was even worth testing, and certainly not hearing aid worthy.

The Sony receiver I had was a 1990 - str-av770. So old it is hard to find any specs on it other than wattage some guy on ebay posted when trying to sell his.

Looking at Crutchfield it seems Sony has some better receivers out now - if the specs don't lie (which maybe they do). THD near the cheaper Onkyos.

My old Sony was pretty heavy - about the same as the onkyo.

I think my problem was trying to live off yard sale finds and not reading updated audio info. I thought all receivers were basically about the same unless you spent oodles of money. COnsumer Reports said so ten years ago.

When I got the SACD player I knew there was another problem.

Now I "need" a subwoofer. As you said - this can get expensive real fast. Maybe I will stop at a sub.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 66
Registered: Jun-04
Donald,

You seem to be on a good upgrade path. I guess if your priority is DVD movies, a subwoofer is just about essential. Not so with DVD-A and SACD if your front speakers go down low enough in bass. Sem has said that he notices a loss of "oomph" I think he called it without the sub turned on when playing DVD-A and SACD but still satisfying. I usually keep the sub off unless I need it with music and I have lowered the level of the Center channel by -4dB with music because I think the Center is not needed as much with music as in movies. So, unless movies are a priority, there is no rush to get a sub, IMHO.

I made my own about 5 years ago from parts from a place called Madisound.com. They are in Madison, WI and I got their NHT 1259 sub and then a cabinet later. I use an old Proton power amp to drive it, so the sub has no internal amp, just 3.3 cubic feet of air and dampening material. It was awkward and time consuming to build, so I would not really recommend it. I don't think I saved any money. At the time, I would have bought a Hsu. The thing also weighs over 80 lbs. I never weighed it but it sure feels as heavy as a big bag of coconuts (80lbs.).

The latest wrinkle is a sandbox I built last week for it. I placed it on a platform built with 1x4's on particle board, dried play sand from Home Depot, an 18" paving stone on top of the sand, spikes on the bottom of subwoofer cabinet (archery fieldpoint "target practice" tips), and then a 16" paving stone on top of the cabinet. I just tried it out today and it seems to help the bass be more tight and controlled without rattling the floor so much. It doesn't look so great though so I might have to cover it with a nice thin cloth like a small end table is covered with. Strange doings here!

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 67
Registered: Jun-04
FYI,

When upgrading the cables on my Pioneer and NAD, I came across the confusion of "audio" vs. "digital" interconnect cables. Blue Jeans Cable has a very nice article on it that is no-nonsense and understandable. At least what they wrote seems reasonable. So, I am probably going to use video cables since they are built to better tolerances than most audio cable, if they are the same price. Except for subwoofer cable which I believe, needs to be twisted-pair in order to make sure that "hum" is rejected from outside the cable.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/digitalanalog.htm

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 841
Registered: Dec-03
yo golden i dig your subwoofer story sounds very
interesting.

i have built all of my subs too.

and i like the deep bass so much that i have mine
on still on dvd-a and sacd just to add that last
little umph! down low enough to wear you don't really hear it but notice if it's not on. yu know?

so i really feal the sub adds very nicely to the
high rez formats.

...............................

Arnold Layne you can experiment with any channels
you like and might find something really nice that
works for you.

theirs just a couple things i personally wouldn't
do.
1 combine speakers either paralell or series.
2 combine signals no: split signals yes.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC Usa

Post Number: 32
Registered: Jul-04
I liked your subwoofer story as well. Maybe you and Alex should go into business together.

Actually it does sound like a fun hobby and you have a sub to use
 

Bronze Member
Username: Omegagen

Post Number: 11
Registered: Jun-04
I can't get my 563A to play my SACD, Michael Jackson's "Thriller". It definitely is the SACD version because the Pioneer reads it as "SACD" on the display. Music only comes out of the front 2 channels...just plain stereo. I changed the settings to "Multichannel" in the Intial settings menu, but that didn't work either.

I have it hooked up to the HK AVR-7200 which has all the inputs for SACD and DVD-A. Any help would be GREATLY appreciated. This problem is driving me nuts!! I played with it for a total of about 5 hours with no success. HEEEELLLLLP!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 43
Registered: Jun-04
I believe that disc is actually just stereo. That is, I think it does not have any multichannel track. Check cover to be sure.

Cheers
AL
 

Bronze Member
Username: Omegagen

Post Number: 13
Registered: Jun-04
The cover boldly states that it's a SACD? It's a special release I purchased from Amazon.com.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC Usa

Post Number: 62
Registered: Jul-04
I have a few sacds that are only stereo. And some that are quad - no center and no sub/LFE track. I was a little disappointed that some of my favorites would not even use the sub even thought they were "multichannel."

Michael Jackson missed out on a great opportunity to make a six or 5.1 channel cd out of one of the best albums to ever hit pop radio.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC Usa

Post Number: 63
Registered: Jul-04
Hey - if anyone cares to respond:

I got a Velodyne CHT-8 sub to go with my Onkyo 501 receiver and Paradigm Titans.

I am now thinking of getting a paradigm center channel cc-170 to replace the Polk Audio speaker I am using for a center. The Polk has no defining info - just "PolkAudio." Must be pretty old and not worth putting between two Paradigms. (Got a pair from a friend years ago who was short of cash (one died) - so no info on them).

Maybe in the future I will upgrade to Paradigm mini-monitors and use the Titans for back speakers or surrounds as I guess they are often called.

Any advice?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1062
Registered: Dec-03
don i'm not sure what your asking oppinions on.

i like the velodyne sub and the paradigm center channel cc-170.
should be better then the polk you had.

don't you just love updrading?

we haven't hashed this thread in a while.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 88
Registered: Jun-04
Joe,

Don is right, some SACD's are stereo-only versions in high resolution, which should sound better and more detailed than the "old fashioned" CD. The Sony web site has no info on the album except a pic of the cover:

http://interprod5.imgusa.com/son-637/music_results_2.asp?pMusicId=410

Notice the sticker on the lower right that says "Single Layer Stereo".

This is not something they chose to put into a multichannel mix, that's all. I have a couple of two-channel SACD's created direct from the master tape to DSD (SACD) equipment, a Telarc classical music album and a Verve Records studio recording of Louis Armstrong and Ella Fitzgerald. They both sound wonderful. I also have a DVD-A disc that was recorded in 4.0.

In the future, if you must have multichannel, look at the SACD label and see if it says "Multi-ch". Some will say "Stereo/Multi-ch", which means that it has both types in SACD high-rez format. Others might say SACD-Hybrid, which means, probably, that there is one area on the disc that is multi-channel SACD and another area on the disc that is CD-redbook (low-rez stereo) to play in your walkman.

I am not surprised that you were surprised by this, it is not explained very well by the industry and it gets consumers hopping mad and they feel cheated somehow. But things are improving. I have pretty much stopped buying old CD's and enjoying SACD and DVD-A slowly. The high-rez stuff sounds so much better, even in stereo.

Hope that helps.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 89
Registered: Jun-04
Don,

I never owned either Paradigm's or Polk's but I would think that the timbre would be matched better with the Paradigm cc-170. Do you know what the dB ratings are on the Titans and the cc? You may have to adjust slightly the center channel volume level to match the Titans.

Speakers have come a long way in the last few years. I was just at Barnes & Noble tonight thumbing through some mags and noticed how many new models of speakers I don't recognize since I last bought 3 years ago. Probably because all this digital equipment is a lot more demanding of these old fashioned analog pieces of wood and plastic called speakers. They need to be much more fast and clean in reproducing sound.

When did you buy your Titans? Is it a recent model. Just curious since I won't be in the market for new speakers for probably another couple of years (I don't think). I hope I can hang on to these old NHT SuperTwo's and SuperOne's long enough to replace all of them at once. But I am already noticing a difference just by listening to the dealer's PSB's when I was upgrading the A/V receiver.

I am very happy with my 563A, better solution for me than getting speakers piecemeal. The high-rez stuff is marvelous to listen to, especially with clean amplification.

goldenarrow
Upload
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 90
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

I guess we haven't had any problems with our 563A machines to bother posting anything! That's a good thing.

I have been (just) keeping up reading the other two threads about beer vs. cables and such. Its a laugh. And your tubes must be adding to your A/C bill. Its great that you can tell us about the adventure with tubes. Too much money for me at this point but I will be reading.

goldenarrow
Upload
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1063
Registered: Dec-03
so golden i see we are still liking our 563a!

did we ever come to a conclusion of redbook cd quality
on these players?

mine seems to sound realy good!

seems like a very good source for $100.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1064
Registered: Dec-03
i guess great minds think alike!

we both thought to give the other a jingle at the same time. how funny.

you should chime in on old dogs or twilight they
can be very interesting. your allways welcome.

i tell you what these tubes are a lot of fun.
and make some very nice music.

yes the new tube hobby can get very expensive.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC Usa

Post Number: 64
Registered: Jul-04
I have a friend who bought Yo-Yo Ma's Obrigado cd and brought it home and it wouldn't play. It wouldn't play on her mother's cd player or her computer at work.

So she asked me if maybe it was just a bad copy. There was the very small SACD logo in the corner with (apparently) no other identifying info to make it clear this was a sacd only disc.

At least on the new releases they have stickers and a different case, even. That should help tip people off.

Goldenarrow - my Titans are about three years old. The center is slightly more dbs than the Titans I believe. Maybe I will get the center this year and then in a year or so get mini-monitors and move the titans to surround. The mini-monitors have very excellent tweeters and a better midrange than the titans.

I posted here - off topic - about my system partly cause I wanted a copy of this thread in my email box - this is a very good thread.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 91
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,

In my haste to trade in for the NAD receiver, I got rid of my old CD player. From what I remember, the CD player NAD 514 had a better low end, more full sometimes a little too much actually. The 563a seems like it could use a little boost. I make sure to turn on my sub and that seems to do the trick.

The clarity for CD redbook is very good. However, the more I listen to high-rez stuff, the more I can tell the diff between that and redbook without needing an A/B comparison.

BTW, I tried your trick of splitting outputs. This one takes just the Front L/R multichannel analog outs from the 563a to the CD input on the NAD. Then I apply whatever bass management and DSP mode I want. I can even play SACD-stereo recordings this way! Sounds really nice. This technique also gets around that dreaded problem with NAD receivers and enhanced CD's that get the first half-second cutoff from each track. Don't think I ever would have thought of it until you explained the splitting technique to us on this thread.

goldenarrow
:-)
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1091
Registered: Dec-03
golden that's pretty cool.

some people would probably say were crazy for doing
what weve done.

but i say their is more than one to do anything
and with a little experimentation you just might
find something really cool.


good to hear!
 

Unregistered guest
An interesting 563/578 thread,http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=b58c583104e8c3b02b48b7f224746920 &threadid=406104&perpage=20&pagenumber=7
rambles on at AVS.
 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 115
Registered: Jun-04
JW,

Thanks for the link. I like the guy who described the differences between the 563 and 578 menu choices. Seems like the 578 not only has cheaper parts but also less menu features like setting individual speaker levels and no video setup memory.

Seems like the comments were slightly more favorable towards the 578 in picture quality.

:-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nealm

Post Number: 48
Registered: Jun-04
I got the Pioneer 563a after kegger recommended it to me. So far I am more than pleased with the audio (despite crossover problems that I haven't fully investigated because I don't have a subwoofer yet) but I can't help but think my 5 year old Toshiba SD1600 had better interlaced component video output. I haven't bought a progressive compatible TV yet so I don't know if progressive output on this unit is leaps and bounds above interlaced. However, I am wondering if I made the right choice by getting the 563a over the 578a since whatever unit I keep will be my primary music and video source. I haven't been able to compare the video of the 578a to the video of the 563a so I don't know if it is improved enough to warrant overlooking its apparent audio shortcomings in comparison to the 563a. I'd prefer to have the best all around unit. Any input?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1135
Registered: Dec-03
neal i'm sorry you don't find the video of the pioneer
unit to your liking.

I went from a progressive scan toshiba dual tray
top of the line model "when purchased" to the pioneer.
and found the picture better on the pioneer unit.
I am running a 56" widescreen hd tv and if the video
was not upto par I would not be using it. because
on these large screen units you can really tell
a bad signal.

but i am running progressive and that was the only
way i tested it. i have no use for a dvd player
that is not progressive.

so you very well may be right if your not running progressive
it may not have as good a picture as the toshiba.

I can only comment on my setup.

thats to bad because for the price that unit is awsome for audio.
 

Unregistered guest
goldenarrow,

Yes, with exception to maybe the video, it looks like many preferred the 563. It's kind of hard to tell with everybody jumping all over the place with a different spin on something. Also, I do like the AVS board, but I feel like I'm reading thru a flock of colored balloons.

Keep up the good work, I don't know where you find the time to stay on top of all this stuff.

Neal,

Don't know; the other guys might be able to help you out. Maybe, you should pick up the 578 at BB and do a face-to-face, then, return the lesser of the two.

Your eyes, ears and listening/viewing room would probably be the best judge.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Nealm

Post Number: 49
Registered: Jun-04
Well its not that I have a huge problem with it.. I'm still pretty satisfied. I've tried to calibrate the video to the best of my liking but I don't have AVIA of DVE so I'm restricted to the THX optimizer (which I hear isn't very good). I'm thinking that maybe with some tweaks I can make the picture meet my liking more. If I'm sure that I can expect a much better progressive output I'd have no doubts in keeping it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1141
Registered: Dec-03
neal i certainly can't garuntee that you will get
the picture you are looking for when you go progressive.

i can only tell you that on my set it looks great.

WHAT DO THE OTHERS HEAR WITH THERE 563A'S THINK OF
THE PICTURE, ANYONE?

not shouting just using caps to get a notice.

thanks!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 65
Registered: Jun-04
I'm surprised to see discontent regarding interlaced from this player. Video sampling rate is 27MHz/10 bits. I believe this is enough to deal with any MPEG-2 material. I'm happy with my DV565A, and here in Europe it's said to have an extrordinary black level. Now, this player comes with slightly overdone default setup. My Loewe is quite forgiving in that sense. But maybe for some other CRTs it could be difficult to find adequate video settings.

Here in PAL County it's quite common that AV stores riggs plasma giant with non-progressive player. Horrifying result, would personally never do it at home.

BTW, 27MHz/10 bits is not that much when it comes to progressive scan. Some players reach up to 108 MHz/14 bits, which I think leaves room for oversampling and more advanced algorithms. But then again there is an extra digit on price tag. From what Mr K. says about this 27 MHz/10 bits player and 56" screen, I deduce DV563/5A has a basic but very well implemented algorithm.

Cheers
AL
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 66
Registered: Jun-04
Just forgot to tell that over here A/V magazines recommend "Gladiator" DVD for evaluating progressive scan players. In particular the fast camera sweeps and the details on gladiatior outfit in fighting scenes.
 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 118
Registered: Jun-04
I have not been much into the video thing yet so I don't want to comment too much. I did notice that the Sony 315NS DVD player had washed-out colors compared to the Pioneer 563A when I had them both side by side. I don't have a proper setup disc either. It would be interesting to hear from someone who has compared the interlaced vs. progressive outputs. I have been pleased enough with the 563A on my el cheapo TV set but that isn't saying much!

I have also read that the opening scene to Star Trek:Insurrection features haystacks in an open field and is a torture test for resolving detail.

:-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 119
Registered: Jun-04
JW,

Thanks for the encouragement. As you can see from the time, sometimes I only write when I cannot sleep and need something constructive to do. All in my pursuit for low budget audio nirvana!

:-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Donaldekelly

Washington, DC Usa

Post Number: 86
Registered: Jul-04
I reread the thread tonight and understood most of it!!

A dumb question anyway. Unlike Golden Arrow - I have small main speakers that go down to about 60hz. So, using bass management will probably make it sound better even if I have to give up the true DSD to use it.

The sound is still in SACD territory. My system is not that expensive (new Axiom M3s to go with the Pioneer 563a and the Onkyo 501), and my ears are a little questionable - so it is probably the right way to go for me. Bye Bye true DSD!

On the other hand - I think someone said the DVD-A discs go up to twice the definition of the SACDs if played in stereo only? (If they are made that way that is). I suppose I can't hear the difference but I may try to see - and then set it back to 88pcm bass management setting.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 88
Registered: Jun-04
Good work, this thread really has drifted into heavy duty from time to time.

Actually 60 Hz can be quite OK for many types of music, as long as speaker keeps frequency response fairly flat (-3dB) down to that limit.

I've put my rather small mains on wall mounts close to the roof. This enforces the low frequencies, enough for me living without bass management. Not a standard solution though, I had good luck with room acoustics and speaker characteristics.

SACD bitrate 2.8224 MHz is mathematically equivalent to 117.6 KHz/24 bits PCM. But the two formats are not entirely comparable. PCM is numerically representing current soundpressure 117600 times per second. SACD is saying "does sound pressure increase or decrease?" 2822400 times per second.

Anyway, I agree the choice between true DSD and adequate bass management is a matter of listening tastes. Just wanted to share some knowledge.

Cheers
AL

 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 117
Registered: Jun-04
Has any body checked out the Sweetspot feature in September's Hi-Fi News, page 56? There, to the right, at the bottom of the pile of electronical goodie jum-jums...
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1343
Registered: Dec-03
.................... N O P E....................
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1344
Registered: Dec-03
IS IT ONLINE SOMEWHERE?
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 119
Registered: Jun-04
Homepage is http://www.hifinews.com, but no link to feature.

You'd really like the Graaf article...
 

Silver Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 172
Registered: Jun-04
After 8 months enjoying my Pioneer DV-565A, time for a recap on it's flaws:

1. The poor bass management seems related to crossover frequency. Word is out that Pioneer chose 120 Hz for SACD and 200 Hz for DVD-A. Not in line with psychoacoustic research, and may cause incompatbility since many speaker/sub systems are profiled at 100 Hz.

2. I suspect the "true DSD" processing only works for stereo listening. Comparing 2-ch and m-ch on the same disc, I always end up finding m-ch a little edgy and digital. What's worse, with speaker config set at 5.1 I sense the same edginess for 2-ch track. IMHO Pioneer cut cost and performance on surround side.

3. My European model has the same firmware version as the problematic US production run. There was a campaign on another forum and people eventually got their US units upgraded. Some followed Pioneer's instructions sending players to service centrals, but it seems to have been revealed that it was only necessary to insert and run a CD, which could be made at any local service point.

I have contacted Pioneer Europe about all these issues, and will of course keep you posted.

Cheers
AL
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