What's up with HDTV audio?

 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 585
Registered: Mar-04
in looking at cNet reviews for plasma screens, i see that many have NO audio outs at all and the ones that do just have stereo!

what's the point in having a nice home theater system if you'll have to listen to CRAPPY TV speaker sound after the digital switch?

where the heck are the 5.1+ audio outs on digital sets that should be there?
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3971
Registered: Jul-04
I've gone through 5 HDTVs and have yet to see one that doesn't have a digital output. Even the generic Sanyo CRT had one. It would have to be an ultra low budget TV to not have a digital output.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 586
Registered: Mar-04
OK if TVs DO have digital outs, i must not have seen them as i saw no yellow RCA jacks in an "out" section on a TV, just one red and yellow analogue stereo pair.

maybe the digital outs aren't in the same section then.

they sure don't bother to mention that feature in cNet videos. all they talk about are inputs, particularly HDMI which i don't have on my old school DVD player either.

thanks for correcting my understanding of HDTV sets a bit.

i'm really anxious about spending $1k on a set that might annoy me more than solve problems.

i've still never been able to get a salesperson or panasonic tech to tell me if there's a mode on their sets for watching 1.85:1 & 2.25:1 in "full screen" (16X9). that would seem to solve any problems with screen burn and be how i'd prefer to watch such discs anyways. losing a bit of side info looks better than letterboxing to me.

i got EXTREMELY annoyed with my sony DVD player for that reason because it won't zoom past 16:9 and it ALWAYS displays an annoying blue [2X] tab on the screen when you do zoom.

my original onkyo could minimize letterboxing in [2X] for 16X9 and [3X] for extra wide screen AND the popup was only temporary. i wanted to take a sledgehammer to my sony for that, no longer being able to back up 1 disc (must skip 4) and not being able to change discs while one is playing among other things.

that's the kind of "surprises sucker!" things i'm expecting when i invest in a new screen.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3972
Registered: Jul-04
I have 2 Panasonic plasmas. The only way to zoom a 2.35:1 movie with the TV is to stretch it vertically, with an analog signal anyway. When using HDMI and an upconverted signal, 720p, 1080i, 1080p, the same zoom will zoom both ways, vertical and horizontal so the picture has no stretching.

I always zoom 2.35:1 movies with my JVC DVD player that has a 1.8 zoom which is exactly right for 1.85 movies on a 4x3 TV and 2.35:1 movies on a 16x9 TV. I've found that the PQ is better using the DVD player's zoom than the TV's zoom. The upconvert player I have is a Philips though so it may just be the cheap player and not the TV.

This year's 80 and 85 series Panny plasmas are great TVs. Most of the problems of the earlier TVs have been fixed in the new TVs. The picture is far brighter and more vivid without the grayscale problems of the past, those aren't completely eliminated but are far less than earlier TVs. The black level float problem is virtually eliminated in this year's TVs too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 587
Registered: Mar-04
yes, i've liked the reviews i've read for panny comparing it as a a "poor man's" pioneer kuros and i LOVE my class-D panasonic receiver.

i DESPISE sony. everything i've owned by them has been a piece of junk and their customer sevice is atrocious. a couple dozen things about my sony DVD player that i took for granted with my onkyo (like PROPER zooming) are just wrong! try finding the "subtitles" button on it's "every button is the same" remote.

the straw that finally broke the camel's back after the power button broke off my VCR, four returns of my $700 portable cassette recorder to fix a wow & flutter or audio dropout issue (with them "losing" some case screws & sending my demo cassette back crushed when i had enough and told them to effing fix it already), returning a boombox that had cabinet buzzing right out of the box, a portable recorder with a broken battery cover because they like to design such compartments so you have to strain them with your knuckles to force the hard to reach batteries out, (as on my final sony item)...

the straw that broke the camel's back was when my $40 portable CD player quit working (actually BEFORE the warranty was up, but i thought it was a CD-R issue) right after the warranty expired because the spindle was grinding and keeping discs from spinning properly... an OBVIOUS manufacturing defect... what did sony do? thumb their nose at me.

eff those spyware installing sons of bees! LOL

the thing that most clicked with me about panasonic, besides good luck with my SA-XR receiver and $50 VCR was their monitor's new THX mode. no need for calibration... correct right out of the box.

i'm putting off getting a new player until either my sony breaks, or bluray player prices come down to $200 and the selection of titles isn't so crappy.

i mostly just want to keep watching free TV.

you would think that 2.25:1-16:9 and 1.85:1-16:9 would be a STANDARD feature on ALL new monitors and players wouldn't you? it's utterly stupid not to offer full screen mode.

i guess they want you to just burn those screens and buy again in a couple years.

don't get me started on planned obsolescence and computers! LOL
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3973
Registered: Jul-04
Blu-ray players are selling for $150 on sale right now. I don't know if they zoom or not.

You can get cheap DVD players that zoom for $50 or less or good used players on ebay for less than that. I paid $20 for two of the JVCs I use.

You'd be well off to invest in a player to go with that $1000 TV, they show where black bars have been in only a few minutes, it goes away pretty fast, but I've never been brave enough to leave them there for more than a few minutes. An entire movie and it might show for quite some time. I played a video game for an hour or so one time and it took three days to completely get rid of all image retention. I couldn't see it from normal viewing distance but I could see it when I got close to the screen.

I agree about Sony. I've worked on electronics for a long time and Sony just isn't reliable. I don't know how Sony and Samsuck managed to convince people their products are better than others. Maybe at one time it was true with Sony, never with Samsuck.

I bought a top-of-the-line Sony CRT HDTV a couple of years ago, I knew better but PQ was pretty stunning, it lasted less than 6 months until it started having problems. Then the local repair shop totally screwed it up and the second shop completely destroyed it. They did buy me out for the purchase price minus tax and I went with a Panny plasma as a replacement. I didn't have any CS problems with Sony, but, that's only the second Sony product I've owned, like I said I knew better.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 588
Registered: Mar-04
well my current sony WILL zoom to 16X9, but it keeps that annoying blue [2X] indicator in the top right of the screen. MAYBE it only does that in 4:3 mode via coax. maybe i can get a good zoom in 16X9 with S video. if there were a possible burn issue, it would be that [2X] block then. sometimes it also unzooms between chapters for no apparent reason.

either way, if it ain't broke, don't fix it. i only believe in buying something ONCE. i actually paid $80 i think to get my onkyo fixed once, but when it started acting up again less than a year later i gave it away. it was a few generations old anyways eg. it wouldn't play CD-Rs, but it had a great remote, great zooming, forward & backward tray movement WHILE playing a disc, an easy to locate subtitle button and so on.

hopefully i'll get some workable solution with what i have until i upgrade to bluray.

not a fan of cheap players either. i bought a $50 one on sale for $30 and it caused nasty herringbone patterns just for being plugged in! i had to unplug it just to watch TV. i took it right back and did some research to get the sony. i STILL haven't bought a single SACD disc for it either.

when i DO buy... i don't mind spending a LITTLE extra for better quality & important features. i'm keeping my eyes open for panasonic and oppo players. at the moment, panasonic & denon ($$$) are the only two brands that don't have that famous jagged line distortion issue.

i don't do ebay anymore after they played pass the ball with paypal and "lose" your emails (same company) until my 60 day claim for a DVD i never recieved from a member with NUMEROUS complaints was up.

then they suspended my account when i refused to pay an extra $2 hidden insurance fee on a CD that i only saw after agreeing to pay. they refused to cancel the order IMMEDIATELY as did the price gouging record store.

ebay can kiss my furry exit now on principle. i'm not going to pay an extra $2 on top of a greedy $5 shipping fee for a $3 CD single! no way! my rating was 100% when i left. i ALWAYS treated my customers right.

ebay is the ONLY business i know of that can get away with adding charges to a purchase AFTER you agree to pay! that should be illegal! the $2 didn't show up in the search results. it was buried in a wall of text noise on the sale page. do you EVER have to read a legal document to buy anything anywhere else online? no. does every other site show your final total before you agree? yes!

i take customer service VERY SERIOUSLY. i'd rather pay a couple extra bucks and get treated right. do right by me, and you'll get repeat business. do me wrong, and you've made a lifelong enemy. LOL

anyways. thanks for your help. i'm trying to save as much as i can so hopefully i can get a 50" viera by february. if i can't i'll settle for a smaller screen.

BTW... samsung & panasonic USED TO be the highest reliability rated brands in the early 90s at least. nowadays though, the worst has to be JVC. virtually EVERY item i saw in returns once at best buy was a JVC.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3974
Registered: Jul-04
The TV I have, TH-50PX80U is $900 with free shipping right now at Best Buy. I paid $1150 for it in June.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 589
Registered: Mar-04
i'm bumming out. i thought ALL of the viera's had the well reviewed THX mode that nearly perfectly calibrates the colors.

so what do you think of your set, ESPECIALLY when watching DVDs? ever watch DVDs without upsampling?

i'm thinking that i might just get the same set. because i KNOW i won't be able to swing $1,800 by february.

the commercial reviews state that samsungs have much better video processing and color controls, but i've read a lot of bad reviews for blotchy colors on them.

they sell panasonics right up the street from me, but looking at them with DVDs, the pictures look really blocky like the hideous motion artifacts you see on LCDs. that's why i want plasma.

the only thing i can think of is that they're either using the cheapest DVD player they sell or that they didn't chose the best setup options.

the salesperson i spoke with seemed pretty clueless about all of my questions.

i might be inclined to go with a 42" though to hopefully minimize any noise. if i can't get a THX model, i don't want to invest a lot.

i can use the savings to get an oppo player. i was just getting up to speed on their latest models and they sound like the best thing i could do for my 200+ DVDs.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3975
Registered: Jul-04
All I watch is DVDs. I've never seen blocks from normal viewing distance, 11' for me, even getting closer, I've still never seen blocks.

There's no way to watch DVDs that aren't upconverted. All HDTVs upconvert to their native resolution. I don't use an upconvert player, I let the TV do the upconversion.

I had a 42", it got small pretty fast. It seemed big at first but within a few months it seemed small. I've had the 50" for about as long as I had the 42" and it doesn't seem small. That's a good deal at BB and if you don't like it you can always return it. I seriously doubt you won't like it.

Panasonic is far better than Samsuck. Don't listen to reviewers, they're clueless. I've seen both of them side-by-side, the Panasonics are far better. The only better TV is the Pioneer Kuros.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 590
Registered: Mar-04
well, if i can't get a THX viera, i'm definitely not getting a kuros.

they just must be using the worst possible DVD player & monitor settings at the local store then. i know i've seen 10x better pictures before bluray at best buy and circuit city.

thanks again for your help
 

Silver Member
Username: Mccambley

BREEZY POINT, NY USA

Post Number: 554
Registered: Jun-05
Budget you original question was about audio. TVs that have a built in ATSC tuner (HD tuner) will have an optical out put for 5.1 audio for the over the air channels that supply Dolby Digital. Some TV will even out put audio from the analog inputs through the Optical out put but ussally only in stereo.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 591
Registered: Mar-04
right. i've only used COAX for digital because optical is supposed to be inferior and more prone to jitter, so i wasn't looking for an optical out... just the old familiar yellow RCA.

really, i have a TON of concerns, most of which i've already stated. that sony DVD player taught me a lot about what it means to buy something that doesn't do the things you're used to or think it should do. it's even scarier when you're spending hundreds or more on the unknown.

just try to find a salesperson ANYWHERE who knows more about an item than it's specs printed on the price card.

knowing that my monitor would be my ONLY HD tuner after the switch troubled me when i saw no coax digital outs like i expected. if the opticals are just stereo, i can still use dolby pro logic as i do with VHS. i THINK my reciever does optical, but i'll still need to buy a cable. :-(

i'm starting to think though that i might just spring for a cheap tuner 1st so i can save up for a real THX viera. then i'll still be able to use my VCRs.

as far as i'm concerned, digital sets should have VIDEO outs too, but that would interfere with the "we gotta keep robbing you blind" corporate bottom line.

don't get me started on the fact you won't be able to edit out commercials and save to DVD after the switch. i'm still steaming about that BS!
 

Silver Member
Username: Mccambley

BREEZY POINT, NY USA

Post Number: 556
Registered: Jun-05
Budget you keep saying your looking for a YELLOW out put for Coaxial Digital, but yellow RCA jacks are for Video. Coaxial RCA jacks are ussually Orange or Black. The only digital out I have sen is Optical on a TV. I don't believe Optical is inferior to RCA Coaxil digital. They do the same job equally as well as the other, the Coaxil might be a little cheaper to buy but not much.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3976
Registered: Jul-04
The Panny plasmas have an optical out and also have a video out. I've never used the video out so I don't know just what it outputs. I have seen TVs with an RCA out for digital audio, the Sony CRT had one.

Optical/coax, either way it's just 0s and 1s. One would have to have a very good system and excellent hearing to hear a difference. Optical can even have advantages, it will send a signal over long cables better than coax.

If you are going to watch mostly DVDs, you might not want a 1080p TV. Most reviews/people say SD material looks better on a 720p TV than a 1080p TV. I looked at both before I bought mine, at closer than my viewing distance I saw no difference, even with a Blu-ray disc.

If you want to edit out commercials and save to DVD, get a HDD DVD recorder. The Toshiba recorders I use record the picture exactly as you'd watch it, except for a slight softening of the picture. Decent recordings can be made from one of the converter boxes except audio blows compared to the satellite audio I'm used to.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 592
Registered: Mar-04
regarding recording... that's exactly what i'm talking about. i want LOSSLESS digital recording. the only way to do it is by investing $$$ in tivo, but once you're out of drive space, or it breaks, you're screwed. it's all about the end of "free TV". that's why brodcast TV sucks now. the networks are trying to wean those of us who REFUSE to pay a disgusting $50 a month for infomercials and the digital switch means that if they can't get us to subscribe, they can sell tivo instead. it's just wrong that you can't load your tivo to your PC for editing and permanent archiving!

as to panasonic plasmas, i'm having SERIOUS second thoughts. they looked OK at stores with high def signals (actually, i thought panny was blurrier than other plasmas... wasn't liking that), but at the bi-mart up the street from me, they looked the absolute worst compared with samsung LCD and sharp and maybe another brand. the colors were very flat, almost like cartoons and there were terrible compression artifacts that look like what happens when you take a blurry low res photo and try to sharpen it. that must be the noise i've read about in reviews.

it's totally unacceptable and WORSE than LCD's temporary occasional motion artifacts on stuff like fast panned sporting events as it's the same effect, only constant. i can't back up more than 8'-9' in my living room too.

i have a couple hundred VHS in my collection. i'd hate to imagine what those would look like if panasonic botches standard DVD so bad.

i'm just going to bring my changer and the fifth element into a REAL video shop and see what set isn't going to give me an unbearable viewing experience.

if the reviews say that some people are sensitive to noise, then i'm downright allergic to it and DESPISE it. i'd rather watch on my 27" with a converter than get the kind of picture i saw on the vieras with standard DVD.

i preferred samsung's slightly blurrier LCD picture than both of the display vieras. i'm glad not ALL stores "trick" customers with high def only signals. upsampling of standard def is a much more revealing test.

the only high def watching i'll be doing is PBS, house & my name is earl for the most part.

i'm going to look into mitsubishi and toshiba. i saw a toshiba set somewhere that had a REALLY nice picture.

maybe i'll even do DLP even if it means $200 replacement bulbs. i won't settle for an inferior picture. except for the motion artifact issue, i think LCDs look better than plasma most of the time, especially with graphics.

what i really wanted was a 32" sony direct view widescreen until they quit making those, awesome resolution and contrast with no artifacts of any kind.

BTW, i agree about 720p. looking at a 720p next to a 1020p side by side, i was hard pressed to see any significant difference and i bet the reason that 720s upconvert better is because they're closer to an "odd #" than 1020 which is just a little over twice the res of DVD. if you want to upsample a photograph, i've found that 133% & 166% look better than 200%. i bet it works the same with video.

just like with audio... the best way to buy video is to bring you own source material and gear in and see for yourself.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3977
Registered: Jul-04
No way is an LCD as good as a Panny plasma. To each his own I guess. You have to remember that showrooms are well lit, an environment more favorable for LCDs. If you watch in a bright room then LCD may be the way to go. If you're not in a bright room then plasma is definitely better. All those TVs are in "torch" mode, In real life no one is going to leave a TV on that setting. Once the TV is taken off "torch" mode, all that crap you see will disappear.

I had a 34" Sony CRT HDTV, I'll take the 50" Panny plasma any day. If you're anywhere near as picky about PQ as you come off as, CRT would annoy you more. Half the time I watched the Sony all I could see was the convergence, geometry, overscan, linearity, etc. problems, none of which flat panel TVs have.

Tivo isn't lossless, I don't know where you get that. An analog signal converted to digital at a low bitrate and odd resolution, then back to analog, definitely isn't lossless.

As far as free TV, going digital is a good thing. PQ is far superior to analog. For a whole $8 for a converter box, it's a great deal and a very good day for free TV. Besides PQ being many times better, there are far more digital feeds than analog feeds.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 593
Registered: Mar-04
OK... is there a way i can get the store to let me set the panny to it's "proper mode" with the remote? if you own one, could you tell me the procedure.

i tell you, the setup they have now is an abomination! it's like watching 50" youtube! i'd have to take a sledgehammer to a set that did that in my home.

i'd say freedom from artifacts is my HIGHEST priority. that's why i always wanted a CRT based set. i'd rather trade some black level for a picture that doesn't look like a pixel storm.

after that, color accuracy, then sharpness, then screen size with black level probably last.

the picture i saw on both vieras was the absolute WORST i've ever seen on a wide screen. one of the sets also had a 1/4" band of translucent red too.

i'm going to bring my camera to the store and see if i can get a pic that shows just how bad the picture is on their displays. it's beyond unacceptable. i'd rather stick with my 27" than look at that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3978
Registered: Jul-04
If the remote is there, just go into the menu and select picture. Most people in the thread over at AVS prefer "cinema" mode, it's only suitable for a pretty dark room though, it's soft and not very bright. "Standard" would be more suitable for a bright room though it's a little grainy compared to "cinema". All settings are user adjustable but only "custom" is input specific, all other settings cover all inputs.

The first thing I do when I buy a TV is set all picture settings to my liking, I never leave them on factory presets.

There's really no way to tell what a TV will look like in your house from looking in a store. It will look totally different when you get it home and set everything where you want it.

If you want all the +s and -s of the TV you can look here:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1000259&highlight=th+50px80u

It'll take awhile to go through it all but they are all real users so there should be a lot of useful info.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 594
Registered: Mar-04
well. i DEFINITELY won't buy a TV and roll the dice if it looks so terrible with standard def, in the store. sure, everything looks fine in HD, but that's a small fraction of what i'll be watrching.

i'll see if i can get them to pull the remore out and try the standard and cinema modes. i'd much rather have a soft picture than a granulated one any day. it looks worse than old school analogue noise by a mile to me.

i've reasearched panny plasma already, especially the 50" THX one, but nothing beats seeing for oneself what a TV really looks like.

i just know that digital noise is an abomination to my eyes. that's why i never wanted to even look at LCDs. the first time i saw motion blur i decided i wanted no part in it.

i'm actually considering DLPs because i've seen more favorable reviews for them with standard def. i'd REALLY like a CRT or CRT projection set... but those went the way of the dinosaur.

i'll see if i can coax a better picture out of the local vieras, but i tell you, they're way up on my "i don't think so!" list at the moment. even a little grain is too much for me.

CRTs rule! LOL
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3979
Registered: Jul-04
You don't need the remote. There's a menu button in the door on the front of the TV.

RPTVs have by far the highest breakdowns of any TV made. According to Consumer Reports 18% in the first 3 years compared to 3% for flat panels. Just look at how many posts are in the RPTV forum here compared to how many are in this forum.

I disagree about CRTs. Do you have any idea how pathetic a 50" CRT would look? The 34" I had drove me crazy half the time. I was in the service menu constantly trying to fix problems that couldn't possibly be fixed, problems that flat panels don't have. You can't be very picky about PQ if you don't see all the convergence, geometry, overscan, just to name a few, problems that ALL CRT TVs have. There is some compromise in PQ with a flat panel but once you get used to a TV without all those CRT disadvantages, you'll never go back, not me anyway. All those CRT problems just ruins the experience for me, that's all I see most of the time. With a plasma I can just settle in and watch the picture without any of that annoying CRT crap. I thought the Sony was excellent at first but it wasn't long before all those CRT flaws just ruined what was otherwise a great picture.

If you like CRTs so much, just buy an $8-$20 converter box and be done with it. There's no need to spend $1000 if you're happy with what you have. If you don't see all those CRT drawbacks, I highly recommend you NEVER look for them.
 

Silver Member
Username: Mccambley

BREEZY POINT, NY USA

Post Number: 557
Registered: Jun-05
There is no HDTV that will display a great picture with standard definition programming. VHS will look horrible on any HDTV no matter what Technology is used DLP, LCD, Plasma, LCOS. Every station is going digital in February get a roof antenna and pick up the local HD stations for FREE. Once you get used to HD you won't miss standard def. I not even sure how well an outboard scalar convert's standard def to HD but at about $1000.00 that not something that sound affordable.
http://www.anchorbaytech.com/products/systems/index.php
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3980
Registered: Jul-04
I totally disagree about SD and VHS. I had completely given up on watching VHS on CRT TVs years before buying a plasma, it just looked too horrible, even satellite recordings in SP. Now it doesn't bother me to watch VHS even if they were done in EP, it looks far better on the plasma than it did on any CRT, HD or SD. I have hundreds of recorded DVDs from c-band and Dish Network that I watch all the time, they look just as good or in some cases better than they did on CRT. Granted the DN recordings don't look too good sometimes, it depends on how dark the movie/show is, but they looked bad on CRT too. The c-band recordings look excellent, better than many retail DVDs I've seen. New anamorphic DVDs look awesome, sometimes almost as good as HD and they are SD too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 595
Registered: Mar-04
well, i'm NOT happy with the TV i have. it has an occasionally annoying pink burn in the upper left corner that shows on white backgrounds, but at least it doesn't look hideous like those panasonics do up the street.

i just can't convey how disgusting the picture is on those. it isn't the source material either as it looked fine on the JVCs and sharps. i think it was a milo and otis 2 disc unless there was a turtle rescue in the original.

i'm not going to give up my hundred of VHS just because panasonic has the worst upconversion. again... the same sized JVC LCD looked FINE with the same material as did every other set i've looked at long before HD. they're just doing something terribly wrong at the store... maybe using RCA video, i don't know but the panasonics look 10 times worse than ANYTHING there. i'm sure part of it IS their noisy processing that i've read about. i think it's really about their upconverters and that the reviews that say they stink with standard def conversion are spot on. i've NEVER seen another set do that EVER. there has to be a set out there with a decent picture that doesn't such rotten eggs on standard def. i'm not looking for miracles, but artificially induced pixellation noise is 1,000% unacceptable.

in the store with high def signals, the panny's look pretty much like everything else, but a little softer, but i'm not going to give up standard def to accommodate a set, IT'S going to have to provide decent standard def to accommodate ME!

i LIKED the picture on 32" trinitrons when they were still made. i don't need a 50" screen, just a 16X9 that doesn't look terrible. the last of the CRTs had the best picture over everything by my tastes... sharpest, best contrast and no artifacts. CRTs last forever too. i only got rid of my 1983 27" sharp because i moved out of state and it wasn't worth shipping. it couldn't hold a candle to even a cheap new CRT, but it got the job done.

the TV i have now is probably that old too, but i only paid $15 for it to get up and running.

i just don't want to deal with letterboxing anymore. THAT'S why i don't want to go the converter route. if i could find a 32" wide screen trinitron in working condition, THAT'S probably what i'd be happiest with. i prefer quality over quantity any day.
 

Gold Member
Username: Samijubal

Post Number: 3981
Registered: Jul-04
I give up. Do whatever you want. You won't listen to anyone else. There are NO blocks, motion blur, artifacts of ANY kind in my TV picture. Look around in forums, at reviews, etc, the Panasonic plasmas are considered the best TVs made next to the very expensive Pioneer Kuro. If you don't want to believe it, that's up to you. This is definitely going nowhere.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 596
Registered: Mar-04
well do everything short of call me a liar. i took my camera into the store and shot this picture
http://takatomon2000.googlepages.com/videodistortion
the moire is caused by the camera, but look at the edge distortion on those letters and tell me it doesn't exist... go ahead... i dare you!

the letters in the photo are close to 100% size of what they were on the monitor too at 1024 X 768 on a 19" monitor.

maybe you're blind to that, but it's absolutely TERRIBLE to my eyes and if anything, the photo actually makes the pixelation look BETTER by softening it.

i didn't want to use sharpen or any other tweak except cropping.

that ghosting, pixelation, noise, dither what ever you want to call it is unfogivable on an $800 piece of equipment.

the sets don't do that with high def, but my entire video collection is VHS and DVD.

i know there are better TVs for me out there.

you can argue with me all you want, but the video conversion on the JVC set next to it was 100x better. the colors were muted and the focus was softer but it didn't have over compressed pixel distortions or edge enhancements.

you can't argue with a picture.

for what it worth, you WERE right about settings... they have the monitors set on game mode and standard DOES lessen the effect, but doesn't make it go away.

i just could not live with panasonic's standard def conversion. it's hideous. it's an abomination. it's THE WORST VIDEO I'VE EVER SEEN.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 597
Registered: Mar-04
i guess that ended THAT debate quick enough then. LOL
 

Silver Member
Username: Cheapskate

Post Number: 598
Registered: Mar-04
it looks like toshiba DLPs are what i REALLY want as, after a bit of research, they are the ONLY sets that offer excellent picture on STANDARD DEFINITION of ANY HDTVs.

http://www.tvpredictions.com/beststandard021407.htm

i know i was liking a toshiba plasma (maybe LCD) i saw at one shop.

if a set can't do justice to MY video collection, it just isn't worth having, like those panasonics and their hideous mutation of DVD sources. *shudder*

eventually i'll get an oppo player for better picture, but i want ACCEPTABLE for right now.
 

New member
Username: Blackelite88

Clayton, North carolina Usa

Post Number: 8
Registered: Sep-08
alot of the times when u go to a store and try to decide which t.v. looks the best u cant. the reason why is that the try to amplify the signal and it's not showing it's true potential. this may cause differnt effects that may make a vizio better then a mitsubishi DLP. u just have to research a t.v. as much as u would do a car.

And dont fall for th TRU-surround b.s. on the tv. i get better sound out of 36" analog sanyo. it's better to just opt the money and get new surround sound system.

Dont fool around with those sound bars unless your gonna get the collosal YAMAHA that lets u hear sound in one direction but on the other side hear nothin. it's utterly amazing to walk from left to right and hear the increasing volume. and make sure u geat a decent sub when u do. oh the price tag is around a 999.95. tehe
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 12187
Registered: Dec-03
also be aware that in-store demo TVs use red blush and other tricks to make the images appear warmer and more appealing to the passer by. While this warms the image, it is far from "acurate" or calibrated to look the way it should (unaltered from the source material) so what you see in a store often isn't what you'll see at home. I've seen the best televisions on the market look like dung in stores due to improper setup by the typical know-nothings working in the shops. Especially this holds true for large electronics wholesalers like CC and BB.

Toshiba is good. So is panasonic and mitsubishi depending on what you're looking for in technologies.
I applaud you on your dislike for Sony as well, as I've had nothing but bad luck and experiences in dealing with them in 20-some years in the AV industry as an installer and engineer.
Kenwood is just as bad if not worse, though thankfully they have stayed out of the TV world for the most part.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Wisteria, Lane USA

Post Number: 12188
Registered: Dec-03
Oh, also to answer the original post, most HDTVs I've seen offer digital coax (SPDIF) or optical (TOSlink) output.
The ones that don't are often "HDTV ready" or "monitors" and not tuner-enabled televisions.
That said, most people tend to use an AV receiver to handle audio and video switching for multiple sources like cable/sat/DVD/BD/etc... so the TV makers don't put huge effort ingo great audio on a television figuring most won't spend a few grand for a TV and stick to the built in speakers. I can see the desire for digital audio output if you use the TV as a tuner for OTA or cable though, and that siad, also remember that HDMI 1.3 handles both audio and video, so if you have a TV with HDMI output, that may also be your audio feed.
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