Please explain why we are impacted by ECM?
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New member Username: Emerge7Post Number: 4 Registered: Jun-06 | Why is it that normal subscribers to DN do not suffer from ECM problems? Why are the bins that come out always fail because of an ECM change? Why not make them act like the receivers of DN subscribers? I can't for the life of me understand why this isn't fixed once and for all. I understand this may be hard, but I'd like to understand how this all works. Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Mdl97Post Number: 24 Registered: Jan-06 | me too............ |
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Silver Member Username: Saqeeb9000Post Number: 475 Registered: Oct-07 | same question here........... |
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Bronze Member Username: Sparky41701Chavies, Ky Usa Post Number: 56 Registered: Jun-06 | i think they are a lot of us have this question but it is free to air tv but still would like to know |
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Silver Member Username: CreekSmithtown, New York Post Number: 389 Registered: May-06 | If LK was here he could answer your questions Ryan. Let's wait, maybe he will answer. Maybe someone else knows the answer. |
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Bronze Member Username: Gord_42Sudbury , Ontario CANADA Post Number: 15 Registered: Jun-06 | i agree, these apples are falling in my backyard to. Why cant i pick them. |
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Bronze Member Username: AjtechPost Number: 28 Registered: Oct-06 | An ECM is an Electonic Counter Measure - and it is aimed at those that are un-encrypting encrypted signals without authorization. You all do realize that un-encrypting Sat signals is illeagal, right? |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2117 Registered: May-06 | They use encryption that their boxes/cards can decrypt (they update them before an ecm)then, the sub boxes work, they implement the ecm, ours goes dark, now, we have to wait till someone "updates" ours. |
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Silver Member Username: ChrisducloPost Number: 118 Registered: Aug-06 | updates are given to the sub boxes before the ecm occurs. if the sub boxes are off during the updateing times at dishnetwork then they too are affected allong with fta. |
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Gold Member Username: AsharfiPost Number: 1562 Registered: Aug-06 | Legal DN customers use the card receivers and DN has a track of ALL of its customers, and their cards. DN updates its legal cards via their server where they have all their legal card record/track. Illegal customers need updates manually because we're not connected to DN's server. hope this info helps |
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Bronze Member Username: AddtempPost Number: 67 Registered: Oct-07 | ^ We All Know That Thank you for the information but the Question remains why can't someone just Clone the Actual Receiver Hardware and Software wise so that it automatically gets Updated on each ECM from DN and BEV itself unless there is an ID like Network PC TCP/IP thats what I want to knwo? |
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Silver Member Username: Bill038Post Number: 231 Registered: Sep-06 | I am sure if you all wait right here, the all knowing maja Nalin will give you all the informations she has, maybe wrong but you will get it non the less. |
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Silver Member Username: Saqeeb9000Post Number: 477 Registered: Oct-07 | AV what about Nfusion receiver.....do they do the same thing or different........ |
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Bronze Member Username: CyberxPost Number: 33 Registered: Jun-06 | DN and Bev now have the ability to change the stream or insert a new counter measure on the fly with little or no warning. I am not a coder, but I would think the only way to beat this is full 102 emulation. Coders probably do have the ability to do this, but this would put them in deep legal trouble. So we knew this was coming, we may be at the end of the line here. Will the coders want to work around to clock to keep us up 2 maybe 3 days a week? On another note does anybody know if enumulation is still up (Hehe did I spell that right?) Tale care |
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Silver Member Username: CreekSmithtown, New York Post Number: 390 Registered: May-06 | Thanks AV, chris and dantetn. Now I understand. It's like zapping a cable box. |
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Silver Member Username: Bill038Post Number: 232 Registered: Sep-06 | I don't think this bothered plastic much. |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2118 Registered: May-06 | nalin is burning google up right now. LMAO The fta receiver IS an emulation of the 102 card. We cant get updates from dn tho, even the hacked cards use blocker to not get the updates, they will kill them... the reciver too. (fta) |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 11 Registered: Dec-07 | I have a sub with dish and use the Ultra for PPV events etc. I do not keep my 301 on or attached to the dish. When the Ultra goes black I plug my 301 to the dish and it basicly does its searching for signal then comes up as normal so it must be a constant signal they send down stream because my legal sub box has never been down after an ECM was sent. |
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Bronze Member Username: CyberxPost Number: 34 Registered: Jun-06 | Also for those who watch Hbo and Sho you can still get them..289-298 or something like that.. Some PPV will still be on in the 5900 this has sorta been a constant during these outages.. |
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New member Username: PotshotPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-06 | I've never paid for cable or satellite in my life but I think the legit DN boxes have a phone line hook up? That's most likely how DN keeps their legit subscribers updated. I may be wrong but I don't see how any other system would work and remain secure via the receive only ability of the DN boxes and not be easily emulated with FTA equipment. Even if addressed data is sent down a skilled coder should be able to write a BIN that intercepts and corrects itself. Happy Hacking! |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 12 Registered: Dec-07 | No the phone line is used to purchase the PPVs and access your account thru the interactive section. |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2119 Registered: May-06 | no, they dont upgrade through the phone line. It is a signal, ur sat is two way reception. |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 13 Registered: Dec-07 | Ok heres my question on the ECM matter, why are they allowing us any channels and not just black us out completely? Is it a game to them as well. Seems more like the path of the Radar Gun vs the Radar detector. |
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Bronze Member Username: MclinkusPost Number: 65 Registered: Mar-07 | [link removed] not only do we have some of the answers we have a wiki that splains some of the words you may not understand its in house written so evreything in it was defined by us in laymans terms for you. [link removed] we have the trusted bins that you want when they come out. and an arcade for in the mean time. a real fta site. [link removed] |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 14 Registered: Dec-07 | thank you Mclinkus for that bit of info but thats not what I asked. |
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Bronze Member Username: ExtremexPost Number: 24 Registered: Nov-07 | Phone line is only for reporting PPV Purchases. The way they keep the cards secure is to send code to the cards via the stream, the code then checks for alterations on the card. The code determines if the card is not legit, then it can loop the card. That is why blockers are put on cards, to prevent them from receiving those updates. The card and receiver can be cloned that a paying customer is using. This is good if only a few people have the clone. As soon as any clone sub becomes public, the provider simply shuts off that paticular card via the CAM ID. At which point all the clones go down. |
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Bronze Member Username: DizastaUSA Post Number: 90 Registered: Nov-06 | LOL me too me too |
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Bronze Member Username: The_devilPost Number: 64 Registered: Aug-07 | why are only PPV and International channels scrambled only. why not 119 channels |
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Bronze Member Username: AjtechPost Number: 29 Registered: Oct-06 | Jim Beem is correct. BEV recievers have to be connected to the phone line, so they don't miss the ECM code - the latest code is always available to them on the network. Emunation is up on some channels, but I have had freezing and long waits with channel changes. It seems random and hit and miss. There is enough on true FTA to keep me happy, but I don't watch all that much TV. |
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Silver Member Username: RunnerguyPluto Post Number: 842 Registered: Sep-06 | DN signal is encrypted. Decryption can only be performed with algorithm and security keys which they provide to subs and not FTA users. |
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New member Username: PotshotPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-06 | Razzor states, "No the phone line is used to purchase the PPVs and access your account thru the interactive section." Then Ryan has a good point. If all the ECM updates for the legit subscribers are done via the satellite data stream then why can't coders write an emulation program that mimics a legit subscriber? I'm not bagging on the coders. I have enough amateur understanding of what they do to realize that they probably don't have much of a life as it is but my experience as an engineer tells me that if a coded signal is transmitted it can be received and decoded. Including the updates on the new encryption techniques. |
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New member Username: PotshotPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-06 | Never mind. I wish i could type faster. Thanks Not Today. |
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Silver Member Username: RunnerguyPluto Post Number: 843 Registered: Sep-06 | Signal Authorization. The subscriber's IRD address number is forwarded on to the programmer's Authorization Access Center. From there, a specific authorization message is sent over the satellite which activates the individual IRD and instructs it to decode the particular service or services. The entire authorization process can be completed in a matter of seconds. The programmer also can remove each IRD's unique authorization message from the data stream at any time. Without the authorization code, the IRD will no longer be able to decode the encrypted signal. Some of the latest encryption system also includes electronic countermeasures that can be used to shut off illegally-modified descramblers if the system ever is compromised in the future. Most encryption systems employ tiers: special encrypted data codes which are allotted to each program provider. Each program provider within a program package is assigned one or more unique tier bits, with each bit capable of authorizing reception of either a single pay TV event or full-time subscription service or an entire package of subscription services. The Conditional Access data is inserted into the vertical blanking interval of the video signal. The more lines allocated to this data stream, the greater the number of decoders which can be addressed in a given authorization period. During the authorization process, if the program doesn't automatically appear on the screen, the service representative will ask the subscriber to press a 'SET-UP' button (or manufacturer equivalent) to display an informational chart, called the Diagnostic Data chart, on the screen of the TV set. The service representative asks the subscriber to read off these 'hidden' codes to determine just why the subscriber is not receiving the transmission. |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2120 Registered: May-06 | will coders be able to work around the clock to keep us going? History says no. Back in the cband days, same thing... codes came every so often, weeks, then every week, then every day, a couple times a day... then none. Dtv was doing it often towards the end too, then hardware swap did us in. I STILL believe they cant kill it till they do a card/hardware swap. If it would just stay the way it is now I would be VERY HAPPY!! Still get some ppv's, some movie channels, the ppv sports events, nba, hockey, locals. Tons of tv. |
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Silver Member Username: Saqeeb9000Post Number: 485 Registered: Oct-07 | danten i have 3 dishes 82,91,148 nothing is working......................................................................... ................................................................................ ................................................................................ ........................................................................ |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 15 Registered: Dec-07 | Im running Ultra DN everything is up except the regular PPV, Prem, P0rn, 241-248 and 251. PPVs are still up on high channels. Showtime under 300 still on. Nt sure about Bev |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2123 Registered: May-06 | u should ditch bev, move to dn 110, 119. Tons of channels |
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Silver Member Username: Thakkar2000Post Number: 105 Registered: Jun-06 | yea..which dish r u using dantetn |
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Bronze Member Username: MuftaPost Number: 66 Registered: Nov-07 | ROM 102 is up and running... paid subscription to bin file really works... free fta bin files, off course there's waiting time and more work..... |
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Silver Member Username: Thakkar2000Post Number: 106 Registered: Jun-06 | if only my neighbor's house wasnt in my way |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2124 Registered: May-06 | bev is dark, as of right now, and during last weeks ecm, channel 455 where the ufc, boxing matches are still works. I would take this forever... |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2126 Registered: May-06 | using dish 500, dp lnb. |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2127 Registered: May-06 | At another house, my dish points DIRECTLY into thick wood about 30 to 40 ft away. I get great signal. I set up a dish that points back at the house, only a few inches of the dish are above the roofline. U can set these up in a lot more places than u think... |
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Gold Member Username: RtapFL Post Number: 1347 Registered: Jan-07 | whoops i found the ecm.lmao  |
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Gold Member Username: TapemanNew York City in-HD, NY Post Number: 1908 Registered: Oct-06 | Do yo want to understand Signal Authorization in a simple term? - Each access card has an ID Address contain data - Ordering service has an ID Address contain data - Signal Authorization process both data contained within each address Issuing final authorization Will grant or deny an approval by offering an authorization key code similar to your credit card authorization when make a purchase. All machine codes in hexadecimal and can be converted to characters or numbers using standard binary conversions. A simple expression formula can look like this Authorization front door=Card Access Data + Service data Hacked back door= hashed authorization key code Obtained using a spoof program Basically spoofing to final password (authorization code) ECM= change in algorithm authenticity Basically changing authenticity formula This is the over all general idea King |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2129 Registered: May-06 | some have tans... some dont... i love every one of those girls!! |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 16 Registered: Dec-07 | lol flipping through DN and very funny thing. they have ECM'd their own Pirate channel 123. LOL now thats brains at work |
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Gold Member Username: TapemanNew York City in-HD, NY Post Number: 1913 Registered: Oct-06 | Actually they use many channels to conduct various tests There are about 20 of them I come across many channels ON and within few seconds OFF this is when I know another ECM is on its way |
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Gold Member Username: Donnie1973Post Number: 2133 Registered: May-06 | yeah, when my ppv's, p0rn and movies went off, I thought a new ecm was on its way too. ;0 |
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Silver Member Username: Pulp_fictionPost Number: 559 Registered: Nov-07 | I come across many channels ON and within few seconds OFF this is when I know another ECM is on its way what r u talking about... what tp's I be curiuos to see this  ..first I have ever heard of such a action.. |
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Silver Member Username: CaliPost Number: 106 Registered: May-06 | LK is a racist bald fucck pricck... This is how the ECMs work... and there are a few. For DTV there is what they call the BIN. This is your subscription number basicly. What DTV hackers did was share that bin with hundreds of people so everyone was "activated". When DTV was awair of this bin people used, they turned it off. To turn off a bin they "black listed" that bin. The satallites would broadcast these blacklisted bins down the stream and if it matched the one on your card, it looped your card and made it unusable. Hackers found a way to un-loop the card. Then people would have to find a new bin to use.... a bit of a pain... but recoverable.DTV is no longer an issue because they now released an unhacked card. Dish Network is a little different from the way I understand it. Dish sends down bins too... but they dont call them bins.... and they dont send down the black listed ones. They only send down valid ones. If your valid bin matches the one in the data stream, then your activated. Dish network picks people at random and does this test on them: (because its a one way deal, its an order to the recever) The recever is asked if it is subscription number XXXXXX and if it is, is it subscribed to HBO, and if it is he is not supost to be on that channel. The ECM then takes place. For a better example with dish lets take this situation. The following is purely an example:<br><br>My buddy steve subscribes to DISH. I barrow his card for 5 minutes and copy it. I now have whatever he subscribes to on my TV (its not this easy, but basicly true... just slightly more complicated than that). I then change on my card that I subscribe to everything, including PPV and Pporn. Now my TV has every channel ever on my buddies subscription. Lets say I also have a TSOP lock on my IRD. The box never gets hurt, the only damage I might suffer when I get an ECM is to my card itself. Dish would then loop my card and i have to reprogram it with the same info (takes 10 seconds). No long wait in this case. Some people have fully hacked the card so they understand the encryption fully. They dont require somebody's subscription code to activate, as they can generate their own working one basicly. If you happen to have one of the earliest cards, what they call a Rom 2 card, it cant be looped so you are never down as long as buddy steve keeps subscribing his basic 60 channels. <br>If you dont have a rom 2 card then you are forced to add a little extra data to your card called a blocker. Under this case you might have to wait for someone to make a working blocker and release it and your good for another few weeks. A hasle but manageable. For people in the case where their subscripion activation is not shared by many people they can basicly have no problems. Black bird is what they call a FTA (Free to air box) FTA boxes such as the black bird are available online from places like FTA boxes are legal and widly sold all around. They are intended to pick up all the free channels that already exist on any satalite but mostly from the KU and C band satallites. These are channels like feeds from news companies, infomercials, episodes of TV shows edited without commercials so local stations can record them and fill in their own commercials, as well as thousand of audio only subcarriers. All and all there are probably about 1000 of these free channels with no or little encryption (now about 850 of these channels are blank and unused and the ones that are used, are crap you wouldnt want to watch). These are what FTA boxes are intended for. They are not advertised as being able to hack dish network. What someone figured out how to do is flash the EPROM sections of these boxes so they can decode the signal of dish network. The boxes can then recieve everything from any of echostar's satallites. What makes these boxes illegal is that their eprom has been flashed with this illegal code. Because the FTA boxes require no card, they cannot be be ECMed by data being written to the card. Because FTA boxes are not designed the same way normal dish recievers are, they dont have a TSOP for an ECM to damage the box. Basicly no known ECM can damage this box... and they probably do have one but its a question of legality if dish is able to legally permanatly disable your FTA box that they dont own even though your stealing their signal. As soon as dish swaps out all these old cards and replaces it with these new cards (the ones that were just starting to be hacked) FTA boxes will no longer work... and a workaround for this is estimated to take another year from where we are today. yeah now that you say that percentage .2 or something I have to be way low. I didnt want to guess an extremely high number and look like a fool. Its probably closer to 2-3 % maybe more. ALl i do know is that dish rarely sues somebody for stealing their signal and dtv sues thousands of people a week for their theft, or at least they did. DTV would raid these places that sold illegal equipment, get their customer database list, and mail everybody a letter that basicly said Send us 2000 dollars to settle or we will sue you (blackmail). People that bought lagatamate stuff from these companies.. and stuff that wasnt related to hacking still got these letters because DTV was sloppy. They have yet to win a case in court, but have reportatly made millions from these blackmail letters.... and now that they have completly defeated hacking (what they said drives up the cost for lagatamate customers) they have yet to lower their cost. thats why I hate them. when Dish network sues somebody.. which is rare.. they always win. They know they have the person nailed to the tenth degree when they go after them. Thats why I respect Dish, they arnt sloppy |
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Silver Member Username: CaliPost Number: 107 Registered: May-06 | Oh and BEV just applied to bid on the newly FCC released frequency spectrum along with Google, hence the end of FTA once this happens. Currently Phone line is not required by pay subscribers unless you want PPV and Tivo. |
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Silver Member Username: Pulp_fictionPost Number: 561 Registered: Nov-07 | BEV and FCC what u talking about they canadian base out of FCC control ? |
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Gold Member Username: Ke5aqnIF I DONT KNOW THE ANSWER, I WILL FIND... Post Number: 1594 Registered: Sep-06 | I still fail to see why echstar entering into the bidding war for the new wireless internet service band would mean the end of FTA. One has nothing to do with the other from were I sit.  |
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Silver Member Username: Pulp_fictionPost Number: 566 Registered: Nov-07 | FTA. One has nothing to do with the other from were I sit sounds like famous words of a betamax salesman  |
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Bronze Member Username: RazzorwyrePost Number: 19 Registered: Dec-07 | I fail to see why anyone is going to even try to bid against Google. I saw a report where they said they have set aside 15 Billion for their bid money and then if needed more they would add to it. Echo doesnt have near the resourses to compete with Google in a bidding war thats for sure. |
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New member Username: OpieDEEP SOUTH Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-07 | Contrary to popular belief, this current ECM was aimed at plastic testing. It caused all cards to be looped. |
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Silver Member Username: BirdwatcherPost Number: 554 Registered: Jul-06 | who gives a shiot how it works. Just get it fixed Damit. fu.ckin Danturds and Rashors of the FTA world. Ding Dong the witch is Dead (LK) |
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Silver Member Username: CaliPost Number: 108 Registered: May-06 | They are not bidding against Google the FCC is auctioning off newly aquired signal from the spectrums acquired from the TV signals that have now been released as a result of digital TV. http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/fn/5353417.html If BEV owns this frequency, well then they may decide to envelope any encryption algorithm to some nextgen box set that includes this signal. Thus not requiring any phone line for PPV, but all who have legit boxes would then be able to receive this signal directly. Just a possibility. Why else would they dump this much money and dilute share price? |
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Silver Member Username: BrucesterPost Number: 721 Registered: Jul-06 | just some info i found on complete Interesting info on ECM -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- With every ECM there is always a fair bit of misinformation about regarding the "new" encryption techniques used, and how it may portend the death of FTA. With the present difficulties, for instance, the following items of interest have been repeated around the net on various sites: * This ECM is specifically targeted at FTA * Multiple MAP call are being used * A dynamic code is being used * There is a new timer function This ECM is specifically targeted at FTA This is likely true! Card based hacks like plastic, card-sharing, and IKS (Internet Key Sharing, another form of card sharing) access video encryption differently than the emu in FTA firmware. Card solutions simply send encrypted VPID (video packets) to the descrambler chip where the included CW (control word) packets are sent right away to the CAM (conditional access module/card), the answer is sent back and then applied to the video packet. The actual CAM values, apart from definitions and order of the CW gathering commands (i.e., MAP calls) need not be known, as it is all done automatically when requests are sent to the card. FTA firmware on the other hand must know the precise CAM locations and thus order and routine of MAP calls, and this has to be patched into each bin; when this changes a new bin is required where relevant portions of the CAM are emulated. Multiple MAP calls are being used This is true, however this is nothing new either. Providers routinely use at least 4 or 5 MAP calls at any given time. MAP calls are intense arithmetic equations that request CWs from the CAM to be sent back to the descrambler. We now have 4e and 4d; there are others in play, but apparently these particular ones are the difficulties (i.e., CAM location unknown). A dynamic code is being used "Dynamic" implies changing according to some input. It sounds scary, like a mutating virus, lol. In actuality, "dynamic" is little different that "random" at the level of intense mathematics as the functions and outputs are extremely difficult or impossible to be predicted. By definition, control words are random numbers. There is a new timer function Each channel uses different CWs, and this is how now for instance some locals may be viewable and other pay channels remain scrambled. CWs change every few minutes, and this in itself is as secure as practically can be: even an NSA super-cryto computer could not solve an 8-byte algorithm in 2 minutes, lol. CWs have always changed this fast, and all TV providers, even cable, use the same system. So what is going on? Nothing radically new, likely. Coders are not crytologists, and even if they were, it would be senseless to attempt decryption on something that changes as quickly as CWs, as mentioned above. And neither can card data be read with any apparent ease (remember all the baloney a year ago about peeling the cards and reading with an electron microscope, hahahahaha, if you believed that one, well, I have some swamp land you may be interested in....). Some CAM locations are known, some are not. ALL of the MAP calls CW answers are currently in the cards and are not changeable, this requires a card swap. What can be changed are the specific MAP calls and their order. These can be read and defined, and even used for card hacking (why IKS is up and running), but FTA is a different story, as mentioned. Coders must be given specific CAM locations which can be patched into or emulated for FTA binary files. Saying a bin has the "full emu" is ridiculous, as it can't by sheer size limitations, as it would have to run in non-decompressed format. What is needed is a MAP map, as it were, lol. Or at least someone to give directions, like a navigator. Most of this information is purchased rather than hacked, at least initially. When a group says they have the "full emu", what should be understood is that they have access to the information, and it may be purchased as a service over a period of time. This is rather like calling up customer service plan: you call to say your widget isn't working, and being told to press buttons 1, 2, 3, then A, B, C in that order, you do, it works, but you have no idea why. It seems Viewsat had an arrangement like this after MAP57, they bought a 1 year plan, lol. Others can purchase information on a one-off basis. Or once a bin is released, the bin can be dumped and reverse engineered for patching to different boxes, but this takes a little extra time. A fix will be forthcoming, the question is: who will cough up the dough first |
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Silver Member Username: Saqeeb9000Post Number: 506 Registered: Oct-07 | thanks for info and it helps........... |
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Silver Member Username: Oleg1474New port richey, Fl Usa Post Number: 462 Registered: Aug-06 | EURO/ECM666 The BEST fta-program FTAnow@USA&EUROPE ...Thank you!!Oleg PHD |
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