Toshiba DLP 44NHM84 Low Light Levels/Contrast Is Awful
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-05 | Just got a Toshiba 44NHM84 DLP RPTV five days ago. Demo HDTV cable signal they had on the TV in the store looked great, bright colors, sharp. . . . HOWEVER, after getting it home and calibrating the thing twice (using the Avia/Ovation home theater DVD), I have to say I am sorely disappointed in its low-light level performance. I mean, really really disappointed. It is essentially un-watchable in low-light scenes. I know all rear projection TVs aren't the best in low light situations, but this is ridiculous. When I watch any scene which is a "low light" scene, things just massively go to pure flat black. No details at all. Dark haired people look like they're wearing flat black helmets (no hair detail, just flat black expanse on their heads). Men in black suits/tuxedos look as if they are wearing some sort of flat black, absolutely-no-details-whatsoever fabric, as if someone just rotoscoped their suit with a black magic marker to eliminate any shadows/detail. Dark scene backgrounds exhibit zero detail; as if you're looking into deep space (sans the stars). For example, that HBO show Deadwood has a lot of low-light scenes, and it's just ridiculous. Same goes for some Discovery HD shows I saw, which again had stunning colors but, any time a low-light situation made the scene, the flat black phenomenon came back with a viscious vengeance. Sometimes more than half of the screen in a low-light scene is completely flat black, with no shadow detail at all, just these floating lit-up faces on the screen (admittedly outstanding detail and sharpness in those floating faces, but - come on). This is just completely unacceptable. This happens on 480p DVDs, 720p HD cable broadcasts, SD broadcasts (which I know aren't so great to begin with)- everything, really, where there is anything even kinda dark. Of course, bright scenes, sporting events, and really really well lit 720p shows are truly stunning, I readily admit (and like). In such well-lit scenes, colors and sharpness are breathtaking. But this black level / low light / shadow detail problem is so distracting in ANY low light scene, that it really makes the set un-watchable. Who wants to buy a TV that effectively eliminates the watching of anything with low light? Well, I don't. I had high hopes for DLP and this Toshiba set. I have no pre-conceived notion as to whether LCD or DLP is better. I don't care, I just want to enjoy my TV. I figured both types couldn't really be that bad, but now I am really surprisingly disappointed, at least with this particular set. I can take the thing back, but perhaps some experts out there can show me where I've gone wrong. I'm willing to try to tweak the thing, so I am open to suggestions. I've adjusted all the key components of the video picture via that AVIA/Ovation home theater disk (including black level of course, the test pattern with the moving vertical bars over a flat black background on the left - where you try to get one moving bar to JUST disappear, while the other moving bar remains a little visible - all of which seems to check out fine during calibration). I have re-done the entire calibration process twice now, to absolutely no avail. Any suggestions, or is this a "dirty little secret" of DLP/rear projection TVs in general that just isn't talked about? How can anyone tolerate this? I will note that the "night" picture setting on this set does bring out much better shadow details . . . . at the expense of some horrifying clay-face and absurdly washed-out color. Obviously, that isn't an acceptable solution. I have a few days more to bring the thing back if it's a lost cause. In the meantime, any ideas? Any? Thanks in advance. |
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-05 | PS - Understanding that with this set each input needs to be calibrated separately, in both my calibration sessions I first calibrated the DVD component 480p input (you really have to do this first, since you're calibrating using a DVD) and then took those values and applied them to the component input channel for my HDTV component signal, and THEN after first viewing HDTV with these transferred settings, which did nothing to eliminate the problem, I tried to tweak them some more while on the HDTV input - no luck across the board . . . . . . so, well, so now you know a little more of what I did (that hasn't worked still). |
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New member Username: BrookyThunder Bay, Ontario Canada Post Number: 9 Registered: Jan-05 | The 44NHM84 DLP RPTV is rated as one of the best low light black level producers on the market. If you're not happy with it you won't be happy with any rp hdtv. |
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TONY S Unregistered guest | TAKE IT BACK AND GET SONY 60 XS 955-SENT MY MITS DLP BACK FOR SAME REASONS-AND JUST LOVE THE SONY. AND DO NOT LISTEN TO THESE IDIOTS ABOUT BURN IN. BY THE TIME MY SET BURNS IN-THERE COLOR WHEEL WILL HAVE SPUN OUT OF THE SET-LOL |
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-05 | "The 44NHM84 DLP RPTV is rated as one of the best low light black level producers on the market. If you're not happy with it you won't be happy with any rp hdtv." You may be right. DLP may not be for me, simple as that. I do, however, find it incredible that this set was rated as the one of best low light black level producers on the market. That is really discouraging, because this thing is so so clearly baaaad at low light details. I can't imagine how the "low rated" models look. I suspect we have a situation here where the "on paper" specs just don't translate to reality. I know this set has the "2+" advanced dlp chip in it, with a contrast ratio of 2,500 (or 2,000) to one, and I know that's a good good number. On paper, it's a good number. But switch from the numbers on paper to your eyeball in your head, and there is no denying how horrible low light scenes are. And it's not just that I'm "sensitive" to this. There. Just. Isn't. Any. Detail. At. All. In low light scenes. It ain't rocket science. It isn't a subtle nuance I'm geeking out on. It's not a "some-see-rainbows-and-some-don't" kinda thing. Rate this what you want, but be sure to also just look at the thing - it is really crappy with low lite, there's just no way around that fact. And, believe me, I wish there was a way around this - I never wanted to buy a TV, discover the horror of the flat black "low lite" scenes, spend all this time trying to figure out what the hell is wrong, search the internet, go back to the store, try to figure out what else I should get, try to fix the one I have . . . . This is not my idea of fun. Lastly, as far as high rated black levels/etc., I should note that when I did go back to the place I bought this (Video Only, SF), and I told the sales guy about my problem, he too expressed disbelief and cited the excellent virtually unparalleled (for DLPs) contrast ratio of this set. All I had to do was get him to switch the TV feed to a show/film with some low light scenes on my model in their showroom, and he was convinced. He saw it, too, instantly. His only response was - "well, most people I guess just don't pay that much attention to their picture, especially if they're upgrading from a SD TV." I don't know. I can't imagine people buying 42+ inch HDTVs aren't paying attention to their picture quality. I really wish I could tweak this set so I don't have to keep spending all this time on what I thought was a pretty straightforward purchase. . . . |
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Anonymous | Your black levels can be improved by cutting back on the g-offset in the service menu. Just press menu on the remote and menu on the TV and hold for about 10secs. The g-offset you want to cut back on is in AD9883A MAIN. I took mine down to 50 from 96...Btw, please write all original settings down before you change it!! Now my problem is that this black level fix doesn't work for dvi. Does anyone know how to adjust the settings for dvi input?!?! |
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-05 | Thanks, Anon. I actually found out about the service menu on the other big 44NHM84 thread right before I got your message. I did bring down that G-offset (green offset, right?) to about 75, from the original setting of 80, and it helped a bit, but it seems the clay-face phenom starts creeping in when I do this, as well as a loss in color vibrancy the more you bring that G-offset down. I'll try your suggestion and cut it down to the 50's. . . . . also took a digital pic of the original settings before tweaking - that's good advice, Anon, I appreciate it! If this fix doesn't work, I fear it's on to Plasma for me. . . . I can change out this set for the Hitachi 42HDT51, which Video Only SF is selling for what appears to be the astoundingly low price of $3,499 ($1,500 more than the 44NHM84 price I paid, but now, well, now I'm getting sucked in . . .). Any good/bad on this particular plasma (will post in plasma, too . . .)? |
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Anonymous | You have to bring down the brightness as well or you have to bring down the rgb offset in the dlp driver. Does the same thing. Best to calibrate with DVE or the Avia calibration disc after you do all of this. Plasma's are great but there is burn-in and the picture fades over time. they look great when they are new. |
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-05 | Ok, I'll give all of this a try tonite. I'll let you know how it goes. Perhaps there is hope for my DLP .. . . . . Anon, I heard that plasma's picture life has been greatly increased in the past few years (eg, a 30,000 hr "half life", which translates to 10 years of daily 8 hour TV watching - at which point the thing is at half it's original brightness, which is still pretty bright I'm told. Given my TV habits, I wouldn't get to 30,000 for probably 15 years at the very very soonest, probalby closer to 20 years.) Does this sound right to you, or am I being led on by plasma advocates? Also, burn-in is an issue with CRTs, but we've all had CRTs for decades and have lived with it pretty easily. I wonder if Plasma is more susceptible to burn in. . . . |
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Anonymous | I've never seen the Hitachi panel before so I wouldn't know. Plasma's do look great but they often suffer the same black issues as dlp's (ie false contouring). You really can't beat the picture quality of a good CRT, if space was not a constraint I would have bought one of those. http://www.soundandvisionmag.com/article.asp?section_id=3&article_id=781 |
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New member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 9 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, no luck! Tried and tried, just couldn't get a good picture out of this 44NHM84. Decided against the still-pricey plasmas, and, after careful review of my friend's 2nd generation Sony 3-LCD 42" Wega RPTV, I will return the Toshiba and await the arrival of the 3rd generation Sony LCD RPTVs, the 42" variety of which will be out in the summer. My friend's RPTV Sony to my eyes is superior to the DLP 44NHM84 in so many ways, that I just can't deny it (to my eyes, at least), and it actually makes my 44NHM84 probably even harder to live with in my case, knowing that just five floors above me is a Sony LCD RPTV that I personally like much better, in so so many ways. So, I can wait . . . . I've already waited 42 years for HDTV; what's another few months? Best of luck to any/all who like the 44NHM84 - the owner/viewers' eyes are the final arbiter, and if you like the set, then it's a winner for you, and it's hard to argue with that. |
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Bronze Member Username: VikingknutPost Number: 18 Registered: Mar-05 | Good post. However, you don't have to try that hard to make sure you identified that it was your subjective viewpoint. However, I agree that picture and sound are in the eye of the beholder. It's funny, there are basically 2 types of posters here: ones that make sure to identify that this is their subjective opinion and ones that attack anyone that just can't understand their almighty opinion. I applaud you for choosing the former. |
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187 Unregistered guest | Anon I see you got some knowledge about the service menu on this tv. What else did you change in the service menu that made the tv better looking ??? Do you have something for the picture noise or the graininess ??? Your answer would be greatly appreciated !!! Thanks |
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Bronze Member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 11 Registered: Mar-05 | Quick update from the guy who started this thread: After finally concluding that I just wasn't going to be happy with this Toshiba DLP, my original salesguy (nothing but professional and knowledgeable, Video Only, San Francisco, CA) has actually persuaded me to give the JVC LCOS technology a try. I'll try the HD52Z585 and see how it goes. I see that lots and lots of people (not everybody of course) seem to be happy with this one, as the posts on this site indicate. Given my finicky-ness, though, one never knows. Apparently, I have 30 days to see if that one makes me happy . . . . we'll see! |
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New member Username: DanydPost Number: 4 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, I have the 62HM84 and the same crap is happening to mine. Right on about Deadwood, my favorite show and the blacks are awfull, i mean they really suck. If anyone can help me out, please i would really appreciate it. Drop me an email also if possible, I'm desperate!! |
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Bronze Member Username: Kdog044Post Number: 88 Registered: Feb-05 | Danny Diaz, Have you calibrated your display with Avia or DVE? I have the 62HMX94 and I am more than pleased with it. |
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New member Username: DanydPost Number: 5 Registered: Mar-05 | I have not, but when I increase the brightness, the blacks are almost dark green, and no contrast ratios on the blacks. It's horrible, please help, maybe service codes? who know,, HELLLL  |
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Bronze Member Username: Kdog044Post Number: 89 Registered: Feb-05 | Danny Diaz, I would recommend you start with Avia or DVE to calibrate your set. There are adjustments in the service menu but unless you know what you're doing I wouldn't recommend adjusting these. |
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Bronze Member Username: Landstander7Post Number: 12 Registered: Mar-05 | Danny, I used Avia four times, even tried making changes per others' directions in the service menu, careful to document the original settings. Low light scenes got better, but things like Deadwood still looked crappy. Clay face/clay things still would show up in some but not all low light scenes, and I just don't like that. I took mine back (about ten minutes ago), as planned, finally, and am patiently awaiting the new Sony RPTV LCDs and watching good old fashioned SD TV until then ("then" being probably sometime in August). . . . . I wish I had better news, but I just don't. Others don't notice these things as much, or are happy enough with other features which are indeed stellar so that they aren't as annoyed with this kind of stuff as you and I (or they somehow completely fixed the problems and I'm just not clever enough to do so as well). Your sensitivities vis a vis TV screen qualities seem similar to mine. If you can take that 62HM84 back, I'd do it. |
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New member Username: DanydPost Number: 6 Registered: Mar-05 | Well, If anyone can help me with the service menus, then I will give this a try. I really dont want to return it, I love the architecture, and HD is really nice on it. But, if someone has figured out the black level issue. Please help. drop me email, or post here. If I can call you and maybe walk me through it, I would really apprecite it. Once again, HEELLLLPPPPP!!!! |
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Anonymous | Here it is Monday morning, and I'm checking out reviews on this TV at work because I bought it yesterday and I quickly concluded that it's not very good in the shadows. I played the Eagles' Hell Freezes Over DVD which I know well, and I was surprised that the shadows blocked up, unlike my 13-yr old 33 inch Mitsubishi CRT. My wife said that she was surprised that there had been no improvement in picture quality in 13 yrs! Question: does anyone think that Plasma will be better in this regard? I can fit the new 42" or 44" Panasonic Plasma into my cabinet space. About $2000 more expensive though! |
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