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DLP vs LCD vs ???

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Archive through February 16, 2005LCD Guy100
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DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest
Come on, LCD Guy...720P is only a resolution format. It happens to be the standard for all HDTV's sold today. That means yours and mine and everybody elses is a "native" 720P TV, period. It doesn't mean that all our sets are going out of style with the next release. You have to admit that 720P in HD is absolutely stunning. Better than anything we have ever had. I'm not so sure a 1080P will trick our eyes all that much more. All future broadcasts will be scalable to any tv's native format. Obsolete is not even an issue really.
 

P
Unregistered guest
I have heard the broadcasters will stick with 720P and 1080i due to bandwidth concerns. Fine with me, I wish the manufacturers would settle on a standard and start working harder on improving the awful reliability of HD products (color wheels, bulbs, fading LCDs, CRT burn in, etc) and the usability, (built-in tuners, standardized connectivity like Mitsu is trying), rather than trying to make subtle improvements that the average person cannot tell the difference of unless they have a 100+ inch screen and take considerable effort and money to upgrade on the part of broadcasters and service providers.
 

P
Unregistered guest
One more thing, that is just what I heard and my opinion. I'm no expert, just an average guy not impressed with the current state of HD.
 

Klaus
Unregistered guest
The thought of 1080p pictures sounds good on the surface, but the practical implications are less intriguing. Think of the pixelation that you see from bandwidth issues in 1080i and 720p broadcasts. Now put the need for doubling the bandwidth (1080i to 1080p) and there is a brick wall that the cable companies will have a real issue in overcoming. Satellite may fare better, but local HD channels will tax their resources as well. DVD or OTA broadcasts would seem to be the only likely candidates for quite a while, and how much of the viewing market does this represent. What you are seeing is like the old CRT technolgy which touted 1000 lines of resolution in the late 80's when the only sources of programming were 480i broadcast and around 240 lines for VHS. Unless there are some much higher compression digital formats that come available, 720p will be viable for a long time, and if the hardware is out in sufficient numbers, then new boxes (cable or satellite, or OTA) will downconvert to 720p.
 

DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest
Thank you Klaus!

He was wearing me out!
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-05
I've been reading these threads and chuckle at the persistence of "DLP for ME" in making his tv seem suffice. Dude, its not our fault you keep kicking yourself in the nads for buying your big bulky piece of crap. And again, its not our fault your wife is nagging you.
You rant/rave all day long about how much you read and feel that you know more than everyone else, attempting to put down LCD Guy. You believe everything you read it seems, first mistake. You make stupid statements like, "The heart of long-lasting DLP technology is "Made in America" in Dallas, Texas." Though it would be nice for all this technology to be built in America and America to benefit, get over it. Next thing we will see is you citing Car and Driver and how the new Chevy Monte Carlo is more reliable than the Toyota Camry.

As far as kissing Klaus's #ss regarding the future of resolutions being made available- R U Freaking kidding me?! We are talking about technology here you moron. You think your 720p will be good for many years to come?! Hmmmm...., it wasn't long ago that T1 was the high standard for connection to the ISP, only a little later it jumped to T3 lines. Bandwith will be opened up to handle higher resolution, whether the cable companies look at the protocol used, physical hardware being placed in redirection "router" sense for the higher bandwith signal, or whatever they come up with. Seriously DLP, your type of reading is considered "selective reading", you have to see the whole picture and not focus on the salty wound you have on your nad sack.
 

DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest
Hi Ryan,

Nice to meet you too!


You spent some time and energy on the likes of me? I'm flattered!
I like my DLP. I happen to live in Dallas. I'm proud of America and support American technology. I don't believe everything I read or else I would believe your bullsh!t. I believe things that make reasonable sense, though. I'm an old multi-decade AT&T guy, so, DS0's to DS3's are something I understand. OC-192 was my last experience before retiring. I'm sure you know that's 192 X 44.5 mmbs on a single pair of glass. Spectrum Division Multiplexing was just being implimented allowing for six OC-192's on the pair. I'd hate to be part of that outage during a back-hoe fade. Very few homes will ever have 1.544mbs in my lifetime. Broadband's token ring is a dismal 600 to 800kbs here in Dallas. The fact is the majority of surfers are still dialing up at far less than 56k. (more like 33k around here). Ryan, 720P "native" sets will be around for decades as technology has moments of brilliance, but trods along at a snails pace due to economic factors.
What you get from me, that should be refreshing, is that I stand up for something I believe in. I'm not on the fence about anything. I embrace my convictions and run them up the flag pole. I believe the DMD chip is a revolutionary discovery that has evolved into a brilliant colored light display that consumers can enjoy for lifetimes. That's just the opinion of this old guy. I hope you enjoyed writing your ridicule as much as I enjoyed writing this response.
 

Klaus
Unregistered guest
Ryan:
The fact that the new technology exists is not the whole issue. Your point about broadband is a good example. Even though a lot of high speed capability is out there, what percentage of the consumer market is it? How many of AOL's customers are broadband vs dialup? Who is willing to pay 40-80 dollars a month for broadband vs. 10-25 for dialup? Again, don't mistake speed for bandwidth, they are not interchangeable terms. In the case of cable, the higher cable modem speeds are using a larger portion of the total cable bandwidth, so the net result is less channel capability. Yes there are new technologies, but will the market embrace them along with the increased cost both to the provider, in new infrastructure, and to the consumer , who inevitably pays for that infrastructure.
 

New member
Username: Tobybul

Grand Rapids, MI USA

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-05
It is my understanding that dlp's have a rotating part (mirror) that produces the pic. It seems to me that this can become a maintenance item.
 

DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest
You need to read this thread from the start and click on the links provided.

The Digital Micro-Mirror device (DMD) is a chip smaller that a postage stamp with hundreds of tiny mirrors controlled by CMOS circuits. The chip itself has a 30+ year durability rating. The color wheel is a different story. It has been a wear item lately, but a new "air bearing" frictionless version has been implimented with good results so far.
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 5
Registered: Feb-05
Hans,

I understand the speed/bandwith difference and the whole cable channel capability. Please refer to my previous post to DLP. People are only waiting for the broadband to get into their areas. Heck people are using the terrible working satellite ISP to get to some sort of broadband. If you are still using dial-up, your living in the 90s. Insurance/Financial institutions every day are getting requests for more functionality in their applications, which requires bigger pages, more dynamic processing, etc. They tell their agencies/brokers, to get this you will have to go to broad-band to work efficiently- forcing their large revenue force to go to the extra $20/month, and they are doing it. You can only compress so much content for the dial-up user that does business transactions on the internet. Ya, dial-up will most likely be used for those that just surf static sites. As far as the joeschmoe at home, he gets a taste of high-speed at his office job, sitting on his company's LAN and can't stand to go home and dial-up, he is buying broad-band. Pretty soon it won't be a question, all people will have broad-band.
I can't believe we are even discussing the idea of a few dollars preventing people from purchasing a higher band-with speed when you are talking about buying a tv for 2k-5k! It so contradicts itself!
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 6
Registered: Feb-05
Klaus,

Sorry about calling you Hans. I didn't purposely do that, for some reason I had "German" naming in my head. I apologize for referring to you by Hans, it wasn't done purposefully.

-Ryan
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Tobybul,
DLP's work by using a single high-intensity light source (replacable halogen bulb) that is reflected off the DMD(Digital Micromirror Device) , which modulates the light by rapidly manipulating the angle of thousands of tiny mirrors on its surface. On its way to the DMD, the light passes through a spinning color wheel that alternately filters it into red, green, blue and sometimes white or yellow spectra. By coordinating the mirrors modulations with the sequence of colors passed through the color wheel, the DLP light engine create images which are then magnified and projected onto the screen. So yes, the spinning color wheel is a wear item on a DLP. The LCD projections do not use a color wheel, but instead use 3 LCD panels(red, green, and blue) which the light passes through to create the image.
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 7
Registered: Feb-05
I usually respect my "elders", but your age is showing your memory, we have met before. You trod along and reply, reply, reply, not being able to keep track of who you have replied to previously....Nevermind, no need for you to suffer from your brain f#rt.

You must be in the stone age if you think most people are "dialing-up less than 56k, more like 33k around here." Where do you live????? Just go out to www.bungie.net and see how many games are being logged for Halo2, you think they are connecting their XBoxes up over dial-up? Or better yet, take a look the next time you are in a BestBuy and notice all of the wireless routers for sale that any novice can configure- you think they are taking that home and using dial-up? Jeez DLP, you think you won't see 1.544mbs in the household in your lifetime? You are sounding like the ignorant Assembler programmers that I have worked with. They were always so worried that the Internet and the Intel platform was going to take their jobs. I had to "comfort" them and let them know, "yes, I worked on the mainframe, you can't beat the mainframe for processing, we are only putting a presentation layer in front of your CICS system to put our applications on the Internet", nevermind the 'tards buying into the CITRIX genre. My point being is, I have lived all over the country, and guess what- I can't remember the last time I was downloading below 2.7mbs and UPLOADING below 800kb! Are you that ignorant when it comes to technology that you don't think the bandwith will be apparent, when we have cities like San Franciso talking about instituting a wireless network for everyone in the city? You must have been one that said there would be no use for WAPs and maybe even said that the internet could never be used to a viable extent for doing business.

And BTW, there is one thing I have in common with you- I am proud of America and would be the first to purchase an American technology of same level of a foreign maker.
 

P
Unregistered guest
Ryan, you just aren't grasping Klaus' point. Go look at a 1080p picture, then compare it to a 720p picture. The slight increase in picture quality to he average human eye does not warrant the huge infrastructure costs necessary to broadcast it.

We could send a man to the moon once a week if we wanted to. Think of all the technological advances!
 

chadwick
Unregistered guest
Hate to rain on your parade that is not backed up by anything but your keen observation, Ryan, but most home users are using 56K dialup. In most rural areas they don't have much choice. I could go into more detail, but this is a TV thread.
 

chadwick
Unregistered guest
Hate to rain on your parade that is not backed up by anything but your keen observation, Ryan, but most home users are using 56K dialup. In most rural areas they don't have much choice. I could go into more detail, but this is a TV thread.
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 8
Registered: Feb-05
P,
You aren't grasping the point, coming from persons discussing the easy level of detection between a DLP/LCD. Technology progresses, and with that it becomes cheaper- simple economics.

Chadwick,
Hate to rain on your response- my parents' live in a rural area (gravel road), ever heard of DSL? Don't give me the "most rural areas don't have much choice", people are moving to broad-band. BTW, here are some facts-
http://www.clickz.com/stats/sectors/broadband/article.php/905351
Here is a snippet from the article: "The research predicts that more than 40 percent of the U.S. online households will be sporting fat pipes by 2006.
According to the report, 41 percent of online households in the United States will subscribe to a broadband Internet connection service by 2006 -- up from 9 percent in 2000. Jupiter analysts forecast that the number of households accessing the Internet via broadband connectivity (cable modem, DSL, satellite or fixed wireless) will increase from 5.2 million in 2000 to 35.1 million in 2006, with cable modems leading the way."

Ya, it is a tv thread, I interjected from the get-go because if you review all of DLP's for me responses, he likes to shoot people down with the copy/pasting of literature, persenting it as his own, like he is building the tv. His conversation with LCDGuy became to much for me to bear.
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 9
Registered: Feb-05
Chadwick,
I realized that article is outdated and incorrect...Here is a more accurate despcription of the current use of the "high-priced" fatpipe....Looks like "most"(54.69%-means majority) are currently using broad-band, like I had thought, and the projected is to hit 70% in Dec of this year....
http://www.websiteoptimization.com/bw/0501/

Home Connectivity in the US
In December 2004, most active Internet users connect from home with broadband connections. Among narrowband users, 37.71% use 56Kbps modems, 4.85% use 28/33.3Kbps, and 2.75% use 14.4Kbps modems. In total, 45.31% of home users in the US connect to the Internet at 56Kbps or less (see Figure 1).
Broadband Growth in the US
Broadband penetration in the US grew by 1.1 points to 54.69% in December, up from 53.59% in November. This increase is above the average increase in broadband of 1.0 point per month over the previous twelve months. Broadband share in the US should exceed 70% by December of 2005 (see Figure 2).
 

Anon2
Unregistered guest
"If you review Ryan's responses, he likes to shoot people down with the copy/pasting of literature, presenting it as his own, like he is building the broadband pipe of the future."

Just because people have 56k modems doesn't mean they get anything close to it, Ryan. Just because people have broadband dsl or cable modems doesn't mean they get more than 300k on average either. Society isn't racing into the future like you think. You may live in a rich utopia, but most people are average low to middle class folks. More than you know don't even have a computer and may never own a big screen tv in their lifetime.
DLP and Klaus are absolutely correct that the 720P resolution standard will be around for many, many years. You are full of yourself, Ryan, and no better than anybody else on this forum. Get a grip, dude. You're loosing it!
 

New member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 10
Registered: Feb-05
Hey Anon2,

If you read my post describing the download and upload speeds I am getting over broad-band cable, that should answer your question. I understand that because your router can handle 100mb connection and your wireless cards is supporting 10mb, you probably aren't going to get that 10mb connection to the internet, although you would get the 10mb transfer over your local LAN for that router.

I am totally blown by all the discussions of "this resolution, that resolution". It seems to contradict what a lot of the discussions are when talking about the pixel rating, when then a subject is brought up of 720p vs 1080p, those with the DLP that aren't up to snuff have to come up with some excuse of "people won't be able to tell". If that is the case then, why bother buying HD ready then? Of course, HD today isn't really HD when it is at 1080p, it was just "granted" to the makers to label it as HD. Why bother then, just get ED? Total contradiction amongst some of the responses.

As far as a "rich" utopia. I'm sure there are many low to middle class individuals in this site. SO WHY IN THE F'CKNG HECK ARE THEY BUYING A $2000-$5000K TV?!(Live within your freaking MEANS!) And no, you don't "deserver" a bigscreen because Johnny down the block has one, just like I don't deserve a Ferrari 'cause I saw Matt Dilon driving one. You are the one who needs to evaluate dude. You are probably that poor soul who drives the brand new car(high pymts/high insurance), lives in an apt(throwing money out the window, but could be saving for a downpymt on a house if you settled for a less than new car), and has the big screen tv. Just for your information, I haven't made my purchase yet. I'm still researching, and that is why I came out to this site in the first place. You see Anon2, I didn't grow up with money, didn't cry about it, just did my work and realized there are somethings I wanted to enjoy in life later.
Unlike the person you probably are- let me guess- you are the demobrat expecting the gov't to do this/that for you, h#ll you probably would love to see a socialistic gov't.

Back off moron, I've been in just about every level of the social ladder in my life, so you are preaching to someone that realizes that in this country a person can make their own way- the beauty of a capitalistic, free society.
 

Anon2
Unregistered guest
You have some serious anger issues, dude!
Don't blow a gasket! Pssssst. It's just an internet billboard, dude. Chill already!

By the way, I voted for W.

Just heard a funny story on Fox.
Dude is camping with his lab retriever in the woods and has a bag of weed. Cops are coming to check him out and he pitches the bag in the creek. What do you think the lab does? That's right! Rover runs and gets the bag out of the creek and drops it at the cops feet. Pretty funny, but not for that dude. LOL
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Here's a link to an interesting article on the new TV's coming out this year with 1080p native resolution. They will be expensive initially, but as with everthing, the price will drop. Like Ryan said, if there was no difference between the 720p and 1080p, nobody would waste the time and money to develop the technology. DirecTV has recently announced that they will be launching a new HDTV satellite later this year. Although there was nothing specific about broadcasting 1080p, I know it's just a matter of time before it happens. Why else would TV's be coming out on the market with this resolution. For people that already have the 720p sets, the resolution will just be scaled down. Not a big deal.
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1749523,00.asp
 

P
Unregistered guest
Ryan, what are you talking about? Klaus was specifically talking about the broadcasters and you disputed him. It's not about detecting the signal. It's about the infrastructure necessary to broadcast it. You know, the equipment you don't see that's necessary for you to get that nice HD signal to that magic box in your living room. Dish, Direct, and cable can't even broadcast in 1080i now without significant compression resulting in signal degradation. I doubt they will waste more infrastructure and bandwidth to go to 1080p anytime soon, and if they do, it's very doubtful they could take full advantage of 1080p's capability.

I've drifted too far off topic, so I apologize. I'm done with this side track. Ryan, when you become capable of conversation and thoughts without name calling, jumping to conclusions and whining about everything you can think of, let me know.
 

P
Unregistered guest
Thanks LCD guy, I missed your post. However, as far as I know, the major networks are sticking to their technology they have already invested it. I could be wrong, of course.

I actually have 1080i, so I'm not trying to defend 720p or my own set. Just saying how I see it.

On the most popular sizes, 50" and down, I don't see the value of 1080p. Kinda like how below 32", HD doesn't do much good unless you are 2 feet away from the screen. Will broadcasters give up bandwidth and spend major money on equipment that will cater to a very small percentage of their customers, even when DTV is standard? Perhaps, but I still just don't see it.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 11
Registered: Feb-05
P,

I clearly understand on how these responses appear to have gotten off topic. Yes, the name calling is somewhat childish, but I have read many other postings with name calling and vulgarity, so I thought that appeared to be the standard, only wanted to fit the seeming protocol.

I do understand what Klaus was talking about. Yes, the hardware/infrastructure necessary to get the signal to your home. And yes, like LCD Guy just commented on DirectTV, others will build the infrastructure. It doesn't seem to trivial that if HBO broadcasts in true HD, ESPN, etc- do you think us as the consumer will want Sat College football and say the AmazingRace(that displays various parts of the world they travel) broadcast in true HD for the great viewing? I think that will be a desire of the consumer, hence to keep ratings and/or improve ratings the only question will be- who will do it first....I'd be willing to bet the discussion in the boardrooms has been occurring daily for awhile now. Though the top-level execs may not know the magnitude of what it would take, they are asking their techies or more likely telling their techies- "Get it done."
Yes, it may take some time, but I really believe it will happen. Like LCD Guy stated, "Why would manufacturers continue to build and further update their sets if they didn't think that it would be viable and most likely a way of the future?

P- good story, didn't hear that one today on Fox. Fox is about the only news I can watch anymore. Ya, maybe they aren't fair and lean somewhat to the right, but atleast they don't lean totally toward the left.;) My frustration is probably stemmed because of all the ridiculous things going on in our society everyday...
In many ways they have swayed, but to list how this started and how it all ties together-
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lampright

Syracuse, Utah USA

Post Number: 33
Registered: Jan-05
Ryan, you're thinking is a bit flawed. The TV industry is nothing like the computer industry. How many years have we been watching crappy NTSC SD tv for? I don't feel like doing the research, but we all know it's been a VERY LONG TIME. Digital TV was a slight improvment, but not much, and that was only in the last 10 years or so. The HDTV standards are still not set in stone, but broadcasters are investing in either 720p or 1080i. Do you really think they're going to throw out that investment any time soon to go to 1080p when the majority of the viewers out there cannot even watch 1080p? It's going to be a long time before more than half of the viewers can even watch 720p and 1080i. On top of that you have higher bandwidth use with 1080p which costs money for the broadcasters. You asked the question: why are manufacturers bothering to build 1080p capable hdtv's if it won't make a difference. We'll a 1080p tv can also display 1080i which is what the majority of the broadcasters are broadcasting. So it completely makes sense for DLP and LCD to move to 1920x1080 because that is the native resolution for HD. It also happens that these new chips and panels will also be capable of 1080p. That doesn't mean there will be anything broadcast in 1080p.

The TV industry is very slow to change and that isn't going to change any time soon. People would be really pissed off if their TV's went out of date as fast as their computers did. It took the FCC to put a switch date on HDTV to force the industry to move to HDTV.

I guarantee that 720p and 1080i will be the dominate formats for the next 20+ years with 1080i being the most prevelent! Eventually 1080p broadcasts will emerge, but it's a guessing game when that'll happen and it will take a very long time for it to become a majority. Maybe when the Xbox3 or Xbox4 comes out that supports native 1920x1080 gaming, then I'll have an itch to upgrade to the 1080 DLP or LCD's. Until then I'll be very happy at 720p.

BOTTOM LINE -- Our current 720p and 1080i(CRT) HDTV's will satisfy us for a very long time!
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
P
Your right in that the difference between 720p and 1080p would be most obvious on TV's larger than 50". But even if it takes broadcasters a while to transmit the 1080p, I can guarantee that there will be other ways to take advantage of this higher resolution such as HD-DVD and Blu-Ray formats. Can you imagine 27 GB of data on a single disc? And when they come out with dual layer Blu-Ray, it will be 54 GB! That's enough data for 4.5 hrs of un-compressed pure HD!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lampright

Syracuse, Utah USA

Post Number: 34
Registered: Jan-05
So I have a question since there are a couple brainiacs in this discussion. The CRT's are supposed to be 1080 lines of resolution. Does that mean they are capable of 1080p? Or do they only support 1080i?
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
I have never seen a CRT that's capable of 1080p, just the 1080i, and I do not believe they will ever make one because from what I understand, many manufacturers are discontinuing their line of CRT projection TVs this year due to the increasing popularity of the DLP/LCD sets.
 

Anonymous
 
The old timeframes for analog technologies make little sense when dealing with digital as Moore's Law, (chip speed doubling every yr) tends to make things happen a bit faster

No way will things stand still for 10 to 20 yrs.
Japan NHK researchers have already demonstrated 4,320p or UHDV (ultra hi definition video) running at 7680 x 4320 producing 32 million pixels and approx 16 times sharper than existing HDTV



 

Bronze Member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 12
Registered: Feb-05
Anonymous- you took the words right out of my mouth! I think you were thinking what I was thinking, regarding Brian's "guarantee" of 1080p not hitting the homes for another 20 years! I was hoping others out there would realize how ignorant that statement is......

By the way Brian, the TV industry IS like the Computer industry- NOW! Ya, 20 years ago was many wave-lengths (no pun intended) behind the technology used for both industries. Wake up and realize what you just said, better yet- think through what you say before you type......
 

DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest

The original issue was about present HD native tv formats becoming obsolete. They won't, period. New HD formats may come but existing formats will always be compatible.
Nobody said things will stand still, Anon. They haven't turned off the NTSC transmitters yet, though, and most likely won't in the next decade. The FCC has pushed out the mandate!
Technology will scream along while economic factors continue to slow society's advancement.

Good morning, Ryan. Don't get all worked up now!

Repect your elders, young man! Ha ha
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 13
Registered: Feb-05
I've enjoyed the discussion and education in this board. I am currently researching a flat-panel. I live in a city now that space is limited, so a bigger set is out of the question. I am not biased to any type of set, would definetly look into DLP as an option if the flat-panel wasn't required. So I'm looking for some opinions here, though this appears to be a DLP/LCD board. It seems you all have done plenty of research on your personal purchases, so I'm wanting feedback/recommendations-
FlatPanel- Plasma or LCD? (I can't say that money isn't an issue, but I am willing to pay more for my first big-screen tv. I should also note that I will be doing some gaming on this tv.)

Good morning as well, DLP For Me. I don't need to get worked up today, too much work to do. I wish I were a young man, that is a nice thought.
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
I have heard from an inside source that the plasma TV's are going to drop in price substantially sometime around April this year. However, if your a gamer, you risk burning in the screen with the plasma. But if the games you play do not have many fixed images (like scores and such) on the same location on the screen, then you will be alright. As far as LCD panel TV's for gaming, burn in is not an issue but response time will be your biggest concern. Samsung is currently working on a sub 10ms response time LCD which will kick butt for gaming. Most of them at the present have 25 ms response times, and you will see ghosting on fast moving images. There are a handful of LCD's with 16 ms and smaller dislays that are as good as 12ms. With the 16ms you will only see slight ghosting on the faster moving images. LCD projection does not have the same problem with response times as flat panel because the image is created differently. Flat panel LCD works by applying an electrical charge to the liquid crystals. LCD projection just projects the light beam through the panels. Some people say they can still see ghosting occasionally, but I have never seen it, and I watch fast paced action movies. I have only played one racing game, but have yet to see any ghosting, and burn in is not an issue. As far as DLP goes, burn is not an issue either. I have heard about audio syncing problems with the DLP's but I do not believe it's all that common. So, in my opinion (and it's just my opinion) I would go with either the Sony LCD projection, or the Mitsubishi DLP. Both have built-in HD tuners (which will be mandatory by July per a government ruling), and both have a decent reputation and good picture. I like the Mitsubishi DLP because it uses a 7 segment color wheel which all but eliminates possible rainbow effects, and it uses the 3rd gen DLP chip. Be prepared to play with the color settings on the Mitsubishi to get it to look right. With the factory settings, the red looks orange-ish, and skin tones are off. As far as the Sony, it looks great right out of the box, and is more user friendly. I turned the brighness down just a bit using the THX optimizer, and the black levels improved. Right now for the money, DLP or LCD projection is the way to go.
 

Anonymous
 
PLASMA PRICES ARE ABOUT TO DROP BIG TIME

Walmart is currently gearing up for a huge push into low priced 42" true 720p HD plasmas made in China

Keep in mind, Plasmas unlike the old boat-sized rear projection CRT's are generally light enough to be taken at point of purchase - meaning Walmart will no longer be handicapped versus Best Buy on their no-delivery policy

In addition Walmart is planning at some point to offer and to undercut by a huge amount Best Buy on extended warranties, selling them at 1/2 the price or lower
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lampright

Syracuse, Utah USA

Post Number: 35
Registered: Jan-05
Ryan and Anonymous don't read very well. I never said the technology would not progress and the resolutions would not go up. I said that what is being broadcast will remain 720p and 1080i for a long long time due to economic forces....just like others have said in this forum. I'm sure we'll see a couple 1080p broadcasts in the comming years, but it definitly will not be the majority.

btw...in may ways Moore's Law is no longer true. Processor speeds for example....they aren't increasing anywhere near the rate of 2x any longer. I've had my 3ghz for well over a year and Intel is nowhere close to having a 6ghz chip.

Anyway...enough on the branched subject since this forum is supposed to be about LCD vs. DLP.

LCD Guy was correct about the need to adjust settings on the Mitsubishi's (and all others). The brightness and contrast were way off on my 52725.....so it looks good in the store compared to others. The colors were slightly off as well. I spent a few hours on setup and I didn't get the colors set perfect, but they're close enough. The Video Essentials DVD for setup was an enourmouse help...don't know how you'd do it otherwise.

IMO, if you cannot see the rainbow effect, I think DLP is the best choice. I see it occasionally, but I like my DLP so much that I think I'm going to stick with it. When the get the response times lower on LCD's and figure out a way to improve black levels then I'd be more willing to buy LCD. All of my PC monitors are LCD though, and I sure love them! I'm a software developer so I spend all day staring at monitors. I went from constant eye irratation problems with CRT's to zero eye problems once I finally got an LCD for work. What a difference! They still aren't the best for gaming though. You might spend some time reading reviews on LCD monitors at tomshardware.com, they point out that a 12ms LCD is 12ms at it's very fastest transition. The average is still up in the 20's or 30's range.
I have to admit though, every time I see a Sony 55" grand wega in the store it's picture always looks amazing. If I had been able to purchase one for as good of a deal as I got on my DLP, I just might have one of those instead.
 

Anonymous
 
New technologies are not necessarily BROADCAST
dependent. In the 1980's many videophiles developed extensive laser disc movie collections, providing a huge improvement over any other existing standard

Narrowcasting via the internet is also headed toward hi definition with even Microsoft already laying down protocols, and there is little if any upside limit on this kind of technology

720p/1080i and the upcoming 1080p formats are very important, however the overall display technology segment will continue to change quite rapidly

Some type of mega multi-screen "HOME IMAX" or something exceeding 1080p but falling short of UHDV or "Ultra High Definition Video" as defined by NHK (Japan) is nearly certain to arrive way inside of any alleged "20 plus" year broadcast window

 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-05
hey there.

so, DLP Guy, LCD Guy, FYI, or any of you others seemingly knowledgeable about these tvs.......i am super confused (still) after reading this entire thread, and others, and even checking out the links of torture tests and stuff. from what i can tell it seems that DLP and LCD are pretty equal (for the most part). DLP is gonna need bulb replacement and perhaps LCD too. i guess ya just deal with it.

so, having said that, i thought i was close to buying but now am still on the fence. here's my question, and maybe FYI or LCD Guy might have an answer......what do ya do about the yellowing of the picture after a few thousand hours with the LCD since it may be unrepairable? as FYI said above from Feb. 8th, "LCD displays are going to loose their blue first and pixels will start to yellow in 2 to 3 years. (3000 to 4000 hours) The liquid crystals are comprised of organic matter, which is altered by light and heat over time. The contrast will fade to black in a few short years. The display will be irrepairable, however expensively replaceable, and therefore not very practical".

so what the hell are you suppossed to do if you spend over 3k on a fat sony lcd and then a few thousand hours later having this yellowing (ireversible) damage to the LCD screen. is this really true? if so DLP seems to have the upper hand.

thanks all.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
Well...let me clarify.

That's 3k to 4k hours of constant on. It's really no direct indication of normal use, which will be much longer as there will be off periods of cool down. However, it does seem that in time the display is destined to be altered. One of my laptops is 3 years old and I can already tell a difference in contrast and color from my new one. For some people, it won't matter if they only get 5 quality years or so out of an LCD. They will be ready for the latest technology or design features anyway. As for me, I want to pop in a new lamp 10 years from now and see an image just like the day I bought it. That's the alluring appeal of DLP. It's just light! I don't want to throw away my expensive HD because it may cost as much to fix as to replace.

NASCAR in HD! Life is getting much better. I'm ready to kick back and enjoy the Daytona 500 today in HD for the first time. Gentlemen...start your "light engines".
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 2
Registered: Feb-05
thnx FYI,

yep, bummer. i dig the sony lcd i have been checking out but that image degredation wigs me out b/c i am not down with buying a new tv in just 5 years after having spent 3k. the more i read and hear the lcd is awesome but that image issue turns me off. dlp is very cool for sure but i also see all these horror stories about 3 death lights (or something like that) and so much back and forth him haw over exactly which dlp set one should buy. thus,..........overwhelmed.

thnx for the info. now i am turning to dlps and just need to figure out which.

also, where do most of you tend to buy your sets........bb, cc, good guys, all the standard places i assume? i am almost thinking of buying from an online retailer just a little skeptical about delivery and then being stuck with a bunk tv once the delivery guy has bailed. gotta love no sales tax though.

thnx again and FYI, enjoy the daytona 5. i can only imagine. must be way cool.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
I got mine online. No worries. I have a 5 year extended warranty, which is a must for these new inventions as they can have a problem right out of the box or in time, no matter what you choose. Of course, I think my Samsung has the best picture of all the ones I stared at and adjusted for months on end. I'm sure someone else will have a different brand they swear by. I wouldn't get one with an internal HD tuner or certainly not a CableCard system. Here is a link for what I think is the best DLP on the market today. No real production issues and a reputable online site with good reviews. The extended warranty offer is excellent as it extends the original factory warranty and covers lamps. The site also has the SIR TS360 Direct TV HD/Terrestrial Digital receiver, which combines off-air digital and analog in with the DTV programming on the same guide.

[link removed]

*********************************************************************
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-05
FYI,

thnx again. appreciate the info and the link. yea, i have not read anything bad yet about the 74 series samsung. some bad stuff on the 63 series but not 74.

no built in hd tuner huh? i have adelphia cable so would i just need to subscribe to hd then and away i go as long as the sammy is hd ready? that's what i am assuming anyways.

thnx again for the info. i'll continue to investigate.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
Yup! Away ya go!

Watch this thread for better local dealer pricing!

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/123725.html
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
Or not! Looks like the $200 incentive expired. Maybe another will come along.
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-05
hmmm, yes, it sure did. oh well. something else will come along again. still a good price.
 

M.A.
Unregistered guest
Ok, so I have been reading these posts and was seriously thinking about buying the Sony Grand Wega WF series (not WE) but the screen fade thing kinda bugs me, so I sent Sony an e-mail asking about it. Heres what they had to say.
Question:
I have been reading alot of negative information concerning the long-term reliability of LCD projection televisions. The problem in question seems to stem from the use of organic matter in the liquid crystals that breaks down in as little as 2000-4000 hrs. of use. This in turn causes the screen to fade and lose color. Any info hat you can provide to prove that this LCD technology is reliable would be appreciated. I would like to see links if possible to tests that Sony has performed. This negative press will certainly damage the credibility of Sony and other manufactures who also employ this LCD technology.
Their answer:
Discussion Thread
---------------------------------------------------------------
Response (Brent) - 02/22/2005 02:14 AM
Thank you for contacting us with your inquiry regarding Sony's Rear Projection Televisions.

There are no such issues regarding the LCD crystals in the case of Sony Rear Projection Televisions.

The LCD Rear Projection Televisions feature a replacement lamp. The estimated lamp life of these replacement lamps are 6000-8000 hours. These lamps are easily replaceable. [End of Answer]

Just thought I would share this info for what its worth. I have actually been thinking of getting the JVC D-ILD LCoS. Not sure of the long-term reliability of these, but have not heard anything bad yet.
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 6
Registered: Feb-05
Hey M.A.

Thanks for the input there. Pretty vague by Sony but what are you gonna expect I guess. The screen fade thing wigged me out too but the more I read the more I saw it as inconclusive to an extent. I mean DLP have their problems too.

If you have the time read my discussion below. Yes, got a bit long winded but wanted other DLP vs LCD people to see my purchase point. This is aimed more towards the regular consumer out there and not all you dire hard DLP, or even LCD lovers, because nothing I say is gonna change your minds. What I have to say here is more geared to people like myself and M.A.

Ya know, for like 2 months now (or so) I have actively been looking at the discussion boards, forums, and other info I can find on the Internet in regards to DLP vs LCD. I am telling you, it will drive a person crazy with the amount of info and back and forth answers you will get on this, that, or the other, and DLP rules vs LCD. To be honest with you I finally just sucked it up and actually bit the bullet and took the plunge and bought the Sony KDF55W (LCD RP) TV just yesterday. Keep in mind I am just a regular dude looking to get a nice fat TV but feel that I did more than above average research on my purchase decision and really took the time to become an informed consumer. Yea, I could have kept researching and gone back and forth but to tell ya the truth I was beginning to drive myself, fiancé, and even the cat and dog crazy with my obsession over DLP vs LCD. A decision had to be made.

I know, all the hard core DLP lovers out there that I see in and around this forum and others are definitely gonna think I am an idiot and I love the "throw away technology". Not at all. I don't take laying out 2-3k (with accessories and stand and warranty) lightly. To some maybe 3k is nothing, to me it needs to last at least 10 years to make it a viable purchase decision. It really was 50-50 for me because I see the benefits in each technology and DLP sounds great as well. But what really took me over the edge and made me go for the LCD Sony was.............................

First off, in all these threads and forums I read the prevalent theme I keep seeing over and over again are the problems people keep having with their DLPs and NOT LCDs. I just don't see the same or as much discussion regarding problems with Sony's LCD and Sony specifically. Just look at the various discussion threads and a lot of what you see is, "Help with my Sammy", "Sammy DLP and black bars", "help I saw a Rainbow", "Problems with my DLP" and on and on. Also there seemed to be just too much HD2 or HD2+ chip and which one is better or not, wheel speed, continued discussion of black bars on the screens of DLPs, noisy fan talk, 3 rays of death, and just too many complaints about people getting their DLP out of the box and it just did not work or look good or this or that. Yes, I know the risk factors with LCD and yes, I have read the "LCD vs DLP torture test" article and read the conclusion relating to it and subsequent articles. Basically, from what I could gather was that the test was done by an independent group (just paid for I guess by TI (chip maker) and the test was just too inconclusive for me. I mean 24x7 operation, all bunched together, TI and the testers never told us what LCDs were used in the test, and even the people who wrote the article said it was just too vague a test to take as reality, or at least reality for the average consumer. I mean I watch 4-6 hours of TV a day, not 24x7. Bottom line, at least for me, was the Sony LCD looked great, had a lot of features, and yes, may have some problems but clearly DLPs do too. Either way (DLP or LCD) you are gonna have to replace a bulb or two along the way. Also, it was the same article over and over again that DLP people in this, and other forums, kept pointing out.......the dreaded "Torture test" article. If LCDs suck so bad there would have to be more proof of this rather than just the same article I kept seeing referenced as proof as to why DLP rules. I just did not see it that way. Also, LCDs outsell DLP by a lot (as I read somewhere) and yes, maybe it is because DLP is newer technology but it's not like Sony has loads of LCDs coming back in trash cans due to people being pissed off. If that was the case they would not make em.

I also went with the Sony because bottom line, I got a great deal on it with $400 off the MSRP, free delivery and setup and install, 18 months no interest no payments (yes, of course I plan on paying it off before then), 5 year extended warranty which explicitly says the bulb will be replaced and that I can even renew the extended warranty after the original 5 years for another 3-5 years. I figured great, any problems should be more than taken care of and if a TV lasts me 10 years then I'm all for that. I do anticipate it will last longer though.

Again, I know the DLP lovers are gonna tell me I am willing to throw my stuff away after 10 years but I can almost guarantee you that all you DLP lovers out there who keep saying DLP will (essentially) last forever with only bulb replacement here and there, well, you're gonna get new TVs within 10 years too, I can guarantee you guys that one. If you are intelligent enough to be on a forum like this then I have a sneaking suspicion you like technology as well and will just plain and simply WANT another TV in 10 years because hey, "why not, it's been 10 years and my current DLP may still be nice but imagine what they will be like in 10 years from now"? You know you DLP guys are gonna want another TV by then anyways.

So, all in all, as I said, it was 50-50 for me but I liked the Sony, know it's gonna be kick some butt, could have kept going in circles over this DLP vs LCD thing, just saw too many complaints or worrisome over DLPs, and needed to make a decision to keep my sanity intact.

Go with what you like and what your gut tells you. For me I liked the Sony from the get go and still dug it enough months later to just go and get it. Remember, they make em for a reason and if they sucked that badly they would not be on the market.

Good luck and thanks for listening. Happy shopping to all you consumers out there and try not to drive yourself and others crazy.

Best,

K
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 7
Registered: Feb-05
and one more thing (as if what i said above was not enough already).

i may have implied, or perhaps it sounded that my research was only done via the internet and forums like this. not the case at all. i made multiple visits to cc, bb, good guys, sears and other stores which carry these tvs too. those guys at those stores are not too hot (for the msot part) and i spoke to maybe 2-3 sales people who knew their stuff. none of them had heard of the torture test and none of them seemed as inforemd and educated as i had become from my internet activites. learn and read all about it here (becuase the info is great) but go to the store as often as possible and stare and look like crazy as i did.

i ended up buying from a local home theatre store where they were knowledgable and gave me the best service and attention and lsitend to my concerns and had even heard of the torture tests. do yourself a favor and research many avenues but if you have a local store i suggest going there or maybe buying off the internet from a reputable seller.

k
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lampright

Syracuse, Utah USA

Post Number: 42
Registered: Jan-05
Kudos to Kevin,

I 2nd what he just wrote, the only difference is I choose a Mitsubishi DLP, mostly because of the better deal I got, but also because of the unique features of Mitsubishi (firewire, media card, etc..). But I think I'd be just as happy with the Sony he purchased. I also don't beleive the articles that claim LCDs will fade and discolor in a few thousand hours. I've seen plenty of LCD computer monitors that are years old and still look great, and I don't beleive Sony would ruin their reputation over a technology that would fail in that short a time.

Weather you choose DLP or LCD, you're going to love your new set! Personally, I'd buy whichever one has all of the features you want and you get the best deal on. That's what Keven and I did and we're both happy with our purchases.

The Ford vs. Chevy mentality some have over all of this is pretty amusing. Come on, if one were so superior over the other, then the other wouldn't be in business, now would it?
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
I just spent the last three hours reading this entire thread in search of the truth of DLP versus LCD and indeed was very informative. What kind of prices are you guys getting for these TV's? I'm stuck between sony 60wf655 and the samsung HLP6163w. They are both priced the same at Circuit City and Best Buy at $3400 before taxes. I'm not worried about extended warranties from the stores and what not. The biggest reason I'm leaning toward the samsung is a whole lot more inputs than the sony. Mainly the sony doesn't have the PC input, and only has one HDMI input. (I'm getting ready to buy an HD receiver and an upconvert DVD player to go with the TV). I am worried about all the complaints of DLP's, samsung in particular. I was wondering if anybody had taken into account that DLP's GENERALLY tend to have more inputs than LCDs. This could be an issue since there are only a few very high upscale stereo receivers that have the capability to handle more than one HDMI/DVI device.
 

New member
Username: Sean007

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-05
go with Mitsubishi DLP, they finally have all the bugs sorted out with version firmware 4.05.

It's the best DLP out there.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Can you get me a model number and possibly a price? Got to be at least 60 inches.
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 8
Registered: Feb-05
Hey ogbuehi,

Yea, if you go with the Samsung then I'd actually look at the 74 series vs. the 63 series you mentioned above. I say this (and only my take on things) because as I too have read all this stuff it seems the complaints people have about the Samsung dlps are primarily with the 63 series. I guess the 74 series has an additional wheel segment (??? Or something like that) and is improved a bit more. If I was gonna get a dlp (which I was close to doing as well) I was gonna do the Samsung 56" 74 series or the Mitsubishi as Sean mentioned above in his post. I think the mitsu is a good one too from all I read and saw. Your call really I guess when it boils down to it.

As I said above I got my TV from a home theatre specialty store. Yes, I had looked at bb, cc, etc. This pricing is for the Sony wf series 55".

At cc and bb it was listed regularly for 3299 minus 300* on presidents day. (Your 3400 price seems a bit high considering also that on Sony's website they show the 55wf series as 3299 not 3400). Then they wanted 499 for a 4 year extended warranty and were gonna charge me like 39 for shipping too. Then if I wanted it installed they were gonna charge me another 60 or so bucks. But the 300 off the price was only good if I did not accept no interest or payments for 24 months. So it was one or the other. BS I tell ya the way they work sometimes.
But where I got my TV was from a specialty store and they were better priced and more knowledgeable. The TV was 3299 as well but given president's day sale they had it listed for 2949. This is an additional 50 off bb or cc. Then I also got a 5-year (vs. 4 year from cc or bb) for 399. That's 100 cheaper than bb or cc and an additional year. My extended warranty also explicitly covers bulb replacement which bb or cc did not. I also got free shipping and installation as well. Plus they will come out (for free) once a year and clean it and stuff. I also got 18 months no interest no payments. I mean it was a no brainer............better service, better pricing, better warranty deal, free shipping and installation and no interest or payments.

So, there's my pricing for the Sony 55wf series as you had asked what some of us were paying. If it was me I'd look to a specialty store or the Internet from a reputable seller like [link removed] or www.dtvcity.com Also, this site I found was very informative for me as well. Great info and lists many places to buy from. http://www.dlptvreview.com/

C-ya
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Thanks alot for the info kevin. Sorry about the confusion but the prices I mentioned were for the 60 inch version of the Sony. And if you could get me the model numbers for that "74" series samsung and the model number for the mitsubishi? I can look up prices and pull their spec sheets in about 2 seconds if you happen to know that stuff. Thanx.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
I can't find anybody that sells a samsung 74 dlp tv. Am I doing something wrong?
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 9
Registered: Feb-05
hey there ogbuehi,

okay, 60" sony, yea, that seems like a good price then.

here's a link to samsung's site with all their dlp models shown. looks like 56 is the biggest in the 74 series for them. the 74 series 56" i was talking about is model # hl-p5674w....... http://product.samsung.com/cgi-bin/nabc/product/b2c_product_subtype.jsp?eUser=&p rod_path=%2fAudio+and+Video%2fTV%2fDLP+TV

here's a link to mitsubishi's 62" dlp model # wd-62725................ http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/televisions/details.asp?id=52

and their other 62" dlp model # wd-62525......... http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/televisions/details.asp?id=51

not too sure of all the differences on the mitsu models.

hope it helps
 

New member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 10
Registered: Feb-05
oh, and the only place i ever saw the samsung 74 series live and in person was at good guys in their showroom. that's the only place i ever saw it, and online too at digital1234.com
 

Bronze Member
Username: Lampright

Syracuse, Utah USA

Post Number: 65
Registered: Jan-05
The primary reason I choose a Mitsubishi DLP was because of the flexibiliy of inputs. I'm a beleiver in firewire and I still have faith that it will catch on. My Comcast HD DVR has firewire, but I haven't tried connecting it to the TV...I have read it's supposed to work. I need to try that one of these nights. That would free up my HDMI input for DVD.

One of my favorite features of the Mitsu is the media card reader at the front of the TV. You won't beleive how good your digital pictures look on this TV...amazing!! It really makes slideshows for the family a treat. Bring your camera memory card into your local store and pop it into a Mitsu TV and check it out...it's really a great feature!
 

M.A.
Unregistered guest
Hey Kevin,
Thanks for the informative post. Your right, over-evaluating this stuff will drive a person crazy! By the way, I saw the Samsung 5674 model at Ultimate electronics near where I live. The picture looked great. It's a little more money than most for a 56" though. (Today they quoted me 3400+tax). The JVC 61" is going for 3199 + 199 shipping on Costcos website. Only thing is, it uses LCOS which I guess is a fairly new technology, and nobody seems to be know how reliable it will be. Costco is also selling the Sony 50" with the Sony stand made for the TV for 2999 w/shipping. Sounds like a good deal, but I kinda wanted a 55-60". Plus I think it's the WE version not the WF. I'm not sure of the difference, but I heard the WF model is better. BB has the same model you got (55 Sony) for 2999+tax, and they have 24 months no interest. The Sony seems like the best deal. Still a tough decision. Thanks again for the input.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Sorry for the late reply. I went out to look at the Mitsubishi. Brian seems to have the same dilemna I have. The mitsubishi along with the sony only have one digital video input. The samsung has one dvi and a hdmi. I will have a HD satellite receiver and an upconvert DVD player both as of the information I have right now output their high def signals through DVI or HDMI. Now the mitsubishi has a bunch of firewire inputs and a pc input. I've tried to call Directv to see if they have a receiver that has an ieee 1394 output to no avail. I haven't tried to find an upconvert DVD player with firewire out because I was told that was only going to be on high def dvd players. I've looked at DVI switchers but that means I need another remote. It seems that samsung is the only company out of the three that saw this and decided to put more than one digital high def input on their tv. So if anybody is hip to this technology can they answer these questions: 1)Is there a noticeable difference in picture quality between using the component cables and DVI/HDMI cables when viewing high def content? 2)I could be wrong but is there a upconvert DVD player (for less than $200) or directv receiver (for around $300) that has ieee1394 output? 3)If I use the xga connection pack (to connect to a computer monitor) for my XBOX, will the xbox upconvert DVD's to 720p? The mitsubishi says it's capable of receiving 60 HZ/720p on its pc input port. Otherwise I may be stuck buying the Samsung 6163.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
1)There is no noticeable difference in picture quality between using the component cables and DVI/HDMI cables when viewing high def content.
2) There is no need for an upconverting DVD player. A progressive scan player will provide the best picture possible until HD DVD players come out. Your set will take the 480P signal and scale it to 720P.
3)An xbox will not upconvert, no matter what the connection nor is it even needed. Again, your set will scale the input signal to 720P.

I prefer Samsung over Mitsu. I don't like glare reflective screens or internal HD tuners. I would stay far away from a CableCard version.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Well guys, I think I've finallly solved my problem. But I just have to get some facts straight. Upconvert DVD players upconvert to 1080i/720p, the telvesion does not. I personally saw this demonstration when using the samsung upconvert dvd player on a sony lcd rear projection and a panasonic plasma. You push the upconvert button on the dvd player remote and voila, you get a way better picture. There was no upconverting done by the TV's. This is also evident with my samsung hi-def crt. The xbox is connected to it via the high def component set and I am only getting a 480p signal at best from dvd's and video games (I do get a 1080i signal from the ATARI classic games just released for the XBOX but the graphics for those games are so basic you wouldn't really notice it.) I noticed people had said that the sony lcd rear projections had problems with the refresh rates not being able to keep up with video games fast moving objects. That is true with the wf series but the xs and more expensive xbr series solves that problem. This also I observed with a demonstration of an xbox connected to the xs and wf sony tv's at bb. I'm not trying to play favorites either but I did see 2 returned samsung 6163's sitting on the floor at bb for only $3k. With all the bad reports from previous owners and seeing those 2 sets sitting on the floor, I'm kind of scared of samsung. It looks like the XS955 sony has 2 hdmi inputs unlike the wf which only has 1. I'll be buying the set next week but I will definitely come back to this thread as often as possible. I appreciate all the info everybody has given me. I just came from the cc and bb so that is where I got this new information.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
I don't know what you thought you saw during the upconvert process, but it makes no difference in picture quality if the DVD does the conversion or the set does the conversion. It's still a converted 480 signal no matter which device does it. You were probably watching a 480I to start with.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Hampersnow

Post Number: 21
Registered: Dec-04
i have been looking at these sets for way too long and DLP was at the top of my list until i took my DVD player to audition the 52 inch Toshiba and the 50 inch "kirk" Samsung. i didn't like what i saw (soft looking ,lack of detail ).i will be using the TV mainly to watch DVDs and have heard an upconverting player may help.i am now considering the Sony 55" or the Hitachi 50". does anyone have an opinion on what is my best bet for DVD viewing ?
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Consumer reports rated the 50" Hitachi (50VS810) slightly better than the 50" Sony (KDF-50WE655) when it came to DVD playback. They did not test the Sony 55" KDF-55WF655, which is what I own. I can tell you personally that I love watching DVD's on it. From 10 ft back it looks almost as good as a plasma. I have a progressive scan DVD player and use high quality component cables. I considered the Hitachi, but personally I think 55" is just the right size. CC had both the Sony and Hitachi and both were equally impressive.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Hampersnow

Post Number: 23
Registered: Dec-04
thank you LCD guy.
 

New member
Username: Kdog044

Post Number: 5
Registered: Feb-05
FYI,

It does matter with regards to PQ if the DVD player has a better scaler and vice versa.
 

FYI
Unregistered guest
Kdog044,

You may be right. I'll bet the scaling technology is very similar, though. Now you have me wondering. I think I'll go check it out again.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 11
Registered: Feb-05
hey all,

well, if you were curious from my previous posts, i now have the sony 55" wf in my living room. set up yesterday. looks great!! as others say, standard cable is okay but dvds rock and i can only imagine what hd will look like next thursday when i get it installed. very happy.

on another note, LCD GUY, or other 55" LCD owners out there...........how far away do you sit from the tv? i noticed, LCD GUY, in a post from earlier you mentioned you are 10' away from the screen when watching your DVDs. is this the recommended viewing distance or what? yes, i have done a search on the Internet for "recommended viewing distances" and i seem to find answers that say anywhere from 7' to 12' or more is the best. is it just personal preference or should i be a certain X amount of feet away for good viewing and stuff? just curious what other 55" LCD owners do and how far away they sit. DLP people can even throw their 2 cents in but from what i understand DLP viewing distance is a bit different than LCD, is that right?

thanks as always everyone.

oh, and on the upconverting DVD thing, i have never noticed a difference yet either. that confuses me too. for now i am just gonna ride it out with my regular progressive scan DVD player and call it good. still look awesome either upconverted or not.

best,

k
 

New member
Username: Gingerbaker

Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-05
Re the LCD "picture deterioration" issue:

The implication that LCD rear projection TV's will have a longevity issue in 3000-4000 hours of use, is NOT, it seems to me, justified *at all* by the article referenced at extremetech.com.

That study, with all its attendent flaws, does not look at television LCD or DLP projection systems. It analyses home theater front projection systems - a different cat altogether.

Nor does it include - I think - equipment actually manufactured by or possibly even related to that used by Sony in its LCD RP home televisions.

In any case, to try to extrapolate any kind of conclusion from the above referenced ( or for that matter, any *single* ) study, and make the statement that there is an inherent "problem" with the the Sony or any LCD RP design is well, ludicrous.

Especially so when there is not a single example of a related problem reported in any actual Sony television.

Let's not start creating imaginary problems in our partisan quest to recommend the so-called best TV.
 

Post Reader
Unregistered guest
Gingerbaker,

Obviously, you're a SONY LCD owner.

What "attendent flaws", whatever that means, are you referring to?
You have no way of knowing if one of the front projection LCD's was a Sony! LCD is LCD, period.
The "Torture Test" was not meant to be idicative of "normal use", but everyone who takes the experiment to task seems to want to relate it to normal use. You included! It was a "Torture Test".
The results are what they are! People can take it or leave it, but it's the way things turned out in that given experiment conducted by the Rochester Institute of Technology.

Let's not start creating imaginary findings in our partisan quest to make ourselves feel better about our LCD tv purchase.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Well maybe I have good eyes or something but DVD's on my current HDTV are not too hot looking. And before anybody says anything I have seen the improvement between an s-video connection (480i) and component connection (480p). Though the 480p may look better I do see pixelation and artifacts during certain motion scenes. An upconverted signal is not true HD but most definitely removes pixelation, artifacts generated by fast moving objects, and the Moire effect. I've watched 30 min. to hour long segments of Matrix Revolution and Lord of the Rings on 2 different types of HD sets in both modes. I was going to be content with progressive scan but for an extra $100 the picture quality is worth it. The best buy right now is the LG ($179-$199). The Toshiba ($149) has numerous complaints and the samsung ($199)requires you every time to put the player in upconvert mode when watching a movie. Go into a bb or cc and they should have a setup with a hdtv and upconvert player. The key is that the dvd player MUST be connected to the tv using the HDMI output not the component output. In fact every time I go into bb or cc they always have to go back and set all the samsung dvd players to upconvert mode because they shutem off every night. Otherwise the picture on even the top plasmas looks like crap when playing in 480p. You ain't making your tv pay for itself if your just watching dvds from progressive scan dvd players. Trust me, I never heard of the upconvert players until I went to look for my big screen. I went to bb and was watching a DVD on the sony XS model and it was horrible (lines and pixels). I talked to a sales rep to ask why the quality of this tv had went down from the last time I saw that same TV. He picked up the DVD remote and pressed the upconvert button and presto, back to the near HD quality I knew the tv was capable of displaying. My whole hdtv shopping was around 2 main sources: the HD satellite receiver and the upconvert dvd player.
 

ogbuehi
Unregistered guest
Oh yeah, the players are connected to the tv's only using HDMI, eliminating the possibility that I may have been watching the movie in 480i before it was upconverted. And to ensure further ensure this a display comes on the screen stating the mode the dvd player is in and you see a display that says 480p then changes to 720p when upconverted.
 

New member
Username: Gingerbaker

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-05
Dear Post Reader

You are mistaken.

I do not own a Sony LCD TV. I do not own any LCD set. Or any projection set or any home theater projector.

Sorry to disappoint.

Please read the article about the study.

The study is not about *televisions*.

It is about home theater *projectors*.

The study has inherent flaws admitted to by the study authors, and pointed out by the manufacturers in rebuttal, and by careful readers here.

The units tested did not include Sony per se. You would know that if you actually read the article, I am afraid.


You say the results of the test "are what they are".

And so they are :D


They tell us that if you torture test projectors, which are not used in the televisions we are discussing in this thread, you might expect certain consequences.

The test tells us nothing about Sony LCD projection television screen longevity. Nothing.

The lack of any known reported problems along these lines by (hundreds of thousands?) owners of any brand of LCD projection televisions does tell us something, however.

And what it tells us, I would argue, does not look good for the proposition that there is a screen longevity issue with LCD projection TV's.
 

Jared Thomas
Unregistered guest
Dear Gingerbaker,

You talk about flaws without mentioning specific instances that you feel make the test unfair. You talk about tv's and projectors being different when everybody knows the display technology is exactly the same. You defend Sony as if you spent your life savings on one.

Please share with us the specific "flaws" you think make the test unfair. Please share with us the specific differences in the basic displays of tv's vs projectors since you think they are so different.
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Actually,if what Gingerbaker says is correct, about the test being for front projection, then it does make a difference from rear projection. The reason being is that the front projection units get way hotter than any rear projection system, due to size restrictions and higher lumen output from the bulb.The added heat would definitely contribute to a shorter lifespan. Rear projection TV's have the luxury of having more room for bigger fans and disipate heat better. By the way, the DLP front projections that I have seen use a 3-chip system, eliminating the color wheel, as there is no room for it, so comparing a front projection DLP is not a true comparison to a rear projection DLP as well. As a side note, the average life of a front projection bulb is approx. 2000 hrs. Well short of the advertised 4000-8000 hrs. for rear projection.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 12
Registered: Feb-05
can someone please read my post from earlier today (2-25-05 at 12 pm) and answer my simple question regarding viewing distances and how far away most of you sit for a 55" lcd? just curious is all. my post from earlier today is like 7-8 above this one.

as far as the torture test thing goes,........enough already everyone. read this entire post from top top bottom (as i have done) and read the torture test articles and other articles therein and everyone just form their own opinion and take it for what it is already. a torture test not done under normal operating conditions and with no mention of what lcd or dlp untis were used. i mean it's ONE test and ONE article guys and if one test and one article are gonna make up your buying decision then so be it. as i have mentionedd elsewhere, clearly lcd guys are gonna see it how they want to and dlp guys are gonna see it how they want to interpret it. either way, a bulb is gonna neend to be replaced in either dlp or lcd and either technology seems to have some flaws associated with it whether it's the rainbow effect, 3 lights of death, noisy fans, smudges on screen, screen door effect, or pixalation and lack of black.

this thread is so full of arguments between the lcd and dlp owners and the darn torture test article and i have news for you,....dlp lovers are not gonna change the minds of lcd lovers and vice versa. i mean it's great for informational purposes but should not be the sole parameter when buying a tv. if you look back through this thread the same arguments keep coming up and regergitated over and over and over again. just read the torture test how you want to read it and let's move on and enough name calling and bad vibes. everyone's opinion is just that and that only, unless they were in the room conducting the test.

bottom line, if you like the looks of an lcd better than a dlp then buy it and vice versa. there's only so many ways to beat a dead horse here.

l8er,

k
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Kevin,
Viewing distance is more of a preference , but Sony tells you what they recommend in the owners manual. I sit 10 ft back because that just happens to be where my sofa sits. However, I noticed if I am closer than 7 ft, I can start to see imperfections on the screen. The ideal distance is to be far back enough to see the whole screen without having to scan the screen with you eyes. Make sure your DVD player is set to 16:9 and the progressive feature is on. Enjoy your new TV.
 

Jared Thomas
Unregistered guest
Kevin,

Thanks for your moderation, albeit unwanted. Your opinion is just that, an opinion.

LCD Guy didn't read the data or he would know that the temperature was controlled two ways. (central air and heat dispersion by auxilary fans) Sure...the lens and lamps are different, but there are adequate cooling techniques employed for each model. The basic display technology is exactly the same as RPTV.

If someone wants to imply that there were flaws affecting the results, I think they should back up what they say with facts. This thread is full of generalizations and idiotic opinions. I'm up for a healthy debate, even if Kevin is not.
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Jared,
I appreciate your seeking a heathy debate, even if Kevin doesn't approve. After all, this thread is about LCD vs. DLP.

First of all,I did read the test funded by TI. The ambient air temp was 78 deg, which is way too high for continuous operation. Even with auxilary fans, this would not provide enough cooling, as these units are not designed for continuous operation.

Secondly, front projection is NOT exactly the same as rear projection. The concept may be the same as you mentioned, but the bulbs put out a ton of heat in front projections. It's not uncommon to see 300 watt bulbs in front projection vs 120 watts for my 55" Sony. Plus, the bulb is way closer to the LCD panels compared to a rear projection,which tranfers more heat to the panels. The rear projections have the LCD panels several inches from the lamp, plus there are mirrors that the light reflects off of before reaching the panels, so the panels stay cooler than in front projection. It's really not a fair comparison.

As for as flaws with the test, who knows. The test lacks too many details. But it really doesn't matter since the test was with front projectors.

I think Kevin said it best in has previous post...

"in all these threads and forums I read the prevalent theme I keep seeing over and over again are the problems people keep having with their DLPs and NOT LCDs."

I'm not trying to sell anyone on buying and LCD proj. over a DLP or even LCoS. It doesn't matter to me. I just wouldn't base my buying decision from the test. Even Consumer Reports made no mention of the test when reviewing TV's in this month's issue.

I would buy the extended warranty no matter which type you buy. Also, a UPS with AVR will add cheap insurance against power fluctuations and surges/sags. Plus, in the event of a power outage, the TV can be properly turned off to allow the cooling fan to run for the approx 2 minutes to cool the bulb.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 13
Registered: Feb-05
LCD guy,

thanks for the info on where you sit, or how far away that is. appreciate it. yea, i'm right around 10' too and it's good.

Jared, right on brother, no problem on my unwanted opinion. The moderation part, well I just thought it might be nice to get past the "Torture Test" article at some point. Go for it though by all means, keep up the verbiage and discussion (as you wish) on the lovely torture test article that was conducted, no less, well over 3 years ago now. I'll continue to get a kick out of reading these posts where you guys say the same thing over and over and over again about the one and only test anybody ever sites in this LCD vs DLP forum. I just don't think you are going to convince anyone who already loves DLP or LCD to suddenly join the ranks of another opinion and that's all it is, infighting between DLP and LCD lovers. The average, and impartial, consumer looking at this thread (and the torture test article, and conclusion) will most likely get out of it what I did..........that there is no proof of inferiority or superiority of one technology over the other. Or, they'll say to themsleves what I did too, who the hell watches TV 24x7 and if LCD sucks so badly why do companies like Sony, Hitachi, Panasonic, etc. even continue to make em if they suck so badly? If an individual makes their buying decision off of one inconclusive test, which was no less sponsored by the maker of DLP technology, (Texas Instruments) then hey, that individual is a much more trustworhy person of major (unbiased, yea right) corporations than I am. Do you really think the test (again, sponsored by TI) was going to show anything other than a positive result for TI? Furthermore, if the test had shown better results for LCDs do you even think we would have seen it? I'll bet Sony (or other LCD manufacturer) could conduct a test and have it turn out (or spin it) the way they wanted as well.

Have a great weekend everyone.

Best,

K
 

dxjnorto
Unregistered guest
Anyone else here own the Epson LS47P2? I've had mine for about two weeks. The color is amazing. Of course it doesn't have the amazing contrast of the DLP sets, but it also doesn't have a 9000 or 10,800 rpm spinning lightwheel. I don't trust those things. 3LCD has been around the longest and I put my money on it being the most reliable.

The color depth of the LCD sets makes the picture look more three dimensional to me. The contrast and black level is not bad either. Let's face it, DLP is false color because your eye or your brain is doing the color combining starting with only six or seven spinning colors.

The Epson LS47P2 is also called Livingstation because it has a lot of other features that many people may not find useful or desirable with a TV, but I've already used the camera card slots to look at digital pictures blown up on the Epson.

For $2899 I feel I got a great deal from TVAuthority including shipping and a four year extended warranty that kicks in after the two year manufacturer's warranty ends. And there's a $200 manufacturer's rebate until March 31st of this year. I'm very happy with my purchase.

I just got VOOM this week too. The HD channels look so good, I'll probably watch SD minimally or not at all.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Rar74

Post Number: 14
Registered: Feb-05
Kevin,

I have read so many recommendations on viewing distance. I've heard many differences from the sales people as well. I'd try to find an average and see how that works for you. Of course this might be easier said than done if you have room limitations or other limitations. You wouldn't want to buy the wrong size...

I agree with your comment about one group not being able to convince the other group that the particular set is better. I think you have to go with what you like for a picture and then research the makers of the particular technology. Due to my home, I'm having to research a flat panel. I've looked and looked and hands down like the Plasma over everything, especially for gaming. This comment may catch me some flaque...;)
 

Jared Thomas
Unregistered guest
I here you Kevin. I agree! The issue was digested enough when the gentleman decided to state that there were flaws or unfairness in the so called "Torture Test". I simply wanted him to state these flaws as I seem to have missed them entirely in my review of the article. He got off track and confused the issue by crossing the thing into "normal" use of LCD RPTV's. Those are his own assumptions, not mine. I think each person can take from the article what they want without trying to discredit the test by making unsubstantiated claims of flaws or saying the test was in Texas Instruments back pocket as you and others have implied, Kevin. It's clear that the Rochester Institute of Technology is an independent organization with it's own reputation to uphold. LCD people may not like the findings, but it's pethetic to confuse or attack the process. I think LCD manufacturers should bring fourth their own R & D facts.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 14
Registered: Feb-05
10-4 guys.

thank you for the feedback and what have you. appreciate it.

i would love to see another lcd vs dlp test take place one day.

off to play golf for the day. everyone have a good one.
 

LCD Guy
Unregistered guest
Kevin (or anyone else with a Sony)

I don't know if have played with the video settings on your TV yet, but I thought I would tell you what I have learned so far.

There are 3 main picture modes, vivid, standard, and pro. Sony sets the default for vivid, which I did not like from the moment the set was turned on. In vivid mode, the whites have a bluish tint, and the brightness is way too high. After experimenting, I have it in standard mode, with the brightness turned down to 27, noise reduction set to "high" for antenna/sat, and mild mode set to on for a more natural picture. Remember, you have to change the settings for each individual input, which is good because you can have different settings for DVD. With a broadcast in 1080i just off of an antenna, the picture is stunning. I'm planning on getting Directv soon with the new HD receiver model #H10S. It has an HDMI output. I can only imagine how good the picture will look then. Your tastes may be different than mine when it comes to adjustments, so you will have to try for yourself. I know this is a little off topic for this thread, but I thought I would share my findings since you have the same TV.
 

Anonymous
 
10 feet on a 50 inch screen w/b ok for (480p) dvd, however for high quality hi def 720p/1080i sourced material displayed on a hi def set, with any distance much beyond 1.0 to 1.3 x screen diagnonal seating distance - you will be missing a fair amount of the detail, and detracting from the entire hi def viewing experience

That would be approx 4 to 5.5 feet max for a 50 inch screen

The old viwing distance ratios for non-HD are all obsolete now

 

DLP for Me!
Unregistered guest
dxjnorto,

I'm cool with you being happy with your Epson LCD. I take issue with you saying that DLP is false color, though. This is why!

"The color wheel offers a number of major advantages: Darkest black-level and highest Dynamic Range of all the flat-panels • Closest match to CRT Gamma and primary colors • Perfect color registration for units with a color wheel • High pixel fill factor of 90 percent produces a smooth yet sharp image with no apparent pixelation except close up to the screen • Pixel intensities generated by the digital DMD chip are digitally precise, stable and reproducible • Very fast pixel response times and few motion artifacts."

Quoted by: Dr. Raymond Soneira

http://www.extremetech.com/author_bio/0,1589,a=3255,00.asp
 

Bronze Member
Username: Overwhelmed

Ventura, Ca

Post Number: 15
Registered: Feb-05
great feedback on the viewing distances guys, appreciate it. i'm at like 10' and all seems pretty cool with dvd progressive scan on (of course). hidef gets installed next week (adelphia) and can't wait.

LCD Guy, thanks for the feedback on the color settings. yes, i noticed the different settings but out of the box the tv color looked good but i think i'll try what you recommended on the color settings and see how that works for me as well.

k
 

New member
Username: Gingerbaker

Post Number: 6
Registered: Feb-05
Dear Jared Thomas

Thank you for referring to me as a gentleman.

That you previously referenced me as someone without enough brains to understand something simple, as having no credibility, as having no capacity for logical thinking, and as a "complete fool" does take a bit of the shine off the apple, but don't don't think I don't appreciate the effort! :-)

Even though you call me "pethetic" [sic] in the next breath. It doesn't matter - what is important is that you are working on your people skills instead of trying to win internet arguments by casting aspersions. Kudos!

Because, frankly, Jared, in the absence of viscious name-calling, your efforts to marshall consistently cogent debate seem curiously flaccid.

On Friday, in the "was the torture test cooked" thread, my initial comment was

" My problem is that too many have been too quick to accept these torture test results ( of home theater or office a/v *projectors*) and apply them as a "normal condition" to be associated with home LCD rear projection *televisions*.

Televisions were not tested here, yet people are concluding that DLP makes a better choice for a television because of this test.

I don't think that conclusion is warranted."

You reply immediately, and talk about how the technology of the tested units and home TV's is "exactly the same" - that only a "complete fool" would think they were different.

Now, the casual reader might see your rebuttal to my point as being just that - a rebuttal. It's hard to imagine you - of all people ;)- calling someone "a complete fool" if you agreed with them.

Which means you were arguing against my point.

Which means you felt that the torture test had something relevant to say to purchasers of LCD home televion sets.

I may be wrong, however.

It IS a little difficult for my evidently illogical, intellectually-challenged, and completely foolish brain to keep track of the delicate nuances of your chameleon-like arguments and keep them straight.

For example, on Friday in this thread you state:

"You talk about tv's and projectors being different when everybody knows the display technology is exactly the same."

as well as:

" The basic display technology is exactly the same as RPTV."

And on Saturday, you say:

"You're a complete fool if you think the core display technologies are different. They are exactly the same."

Yet, you also admit - and this is where it gets confusing, that:

"Sure...the lens and lamps are different"


as well as :

"The lens may change and the lumins or lamp wattage may be different".

Now, here is where I really get confused.

All this newfound honesty of yours comes after LCD GUY provides information on precisely how the tested *projector* systems differ substantially from the untested home *televions* that are being discussed in this and other threads.

Differences that would have enormous physical consequences on the torture test's Authors hypthesis for LCD failure. Differences that make the test possibly completely irrelevant. Differences that, at the very least, would make a properly scientifically sceptical observer very hesitant to see any equivalency at all between the tested units and home LCD RP TV's.


I found this board three days ago in hopes of researching a possible purchase, and was astounded first by the (uncontested)claims that LCD RP TV's were inherently flawed, and then by the irrelevancy of the proof source for such a claim.

When I posted my thoughts about the fallacy of such claims in light of the inapplicability of the test subject itself, and the enormous contrary empirical track record of LCD RP TV's in the marketplace over the past half decade (?), I was treated to ad hominem attacks by you and POST READER.

And to ascribed by you, of arguments I never made! You accuse me of dismissing the torture test study because of it flaws. I did no such thing.

I dismissed the torure test study because I found it irrelevant and misapplied by many here.

I DID say the study has flaws. Guess what - all studies have flaws.

I should know - I used to do reasearch biolgy and I published (flawed) studies. I deal with clinical studies every day in my current work.

The authors of the study admit to at least one flaw of their study ( too small an "n" ) openly in the discussion. So what?

I did not hinge my arguments on any flaws of the study and you darned well know it, I think. You use this as a straw man. No matter.

What is important here, I think is the following:

People come here to this board hoping to find solid information and advice when making decisions involving quite expensive equipment.

When overzealous advocates present patently unproven and likely false disparaging claims against an entire class of TV's, and these statements go unchallenged, the entire value of this board, it seems to me, is diminished.

Now maybe there is a board history about this issue I am completely oblivious of, and I am missing the boat.

But I can tell you that I was nearly put off LCD RP TV's altogether until I actually read the article myself and put two and two together.

If this board is going to function as a valuable resource, then more careful analysis and less namecalling would be helpful.






 

Jared Thomas
Unregistered guest
Gingerbaker,

Your intellect shows!
I agree mostly with everything you say!

I did say on several occasions that the "displays" are the same, meaning the DMD chip technology itself in DLP is the same in all projectors, front and rear, as is the liquid crystal panel display technology is the same in all LCD projectors. There is nothing confusing about this.
We can agree that the lens and lumins are different. We can agree that the test is not indicative of RPTV's in normal every day use. We can agree that name calling and degrading remarks don't accomplish much of anything.

My intention is to keep the "Torture Test" in a vaccume of it's own circumstances. What happened there killed the LCD displays and didn't kill the DLP displays under those specific circumstances. I believe the test was impartial and the units were treated equally. Just because the display technology is the same in the test vaccume and the RPTV normal use enviroment doesn't mean I'm inferring similar results in a similar timeframe. That is where you kept getting confused. I do however, find the results very interesting for my own personal reasons and people can take from it what they will.

My own experience will LCD is with a Compaq Armada laptop, which lost it's blue. Other colors are affected and everything has a yellow tint. It's a 99 model and I wanted it to last longer. I didn't use it every day and only a few hours at a time. The "test" results of LCD failures are strikingly similar to my own experience with the laptop. It still works, but it looks like crap. Six years is probably ok for most people, though. It's a P3 800mhz and works perfectly, otherwise. It will be cheaper to attach a seperate display at this point. When I read that the organic matter in liquid crystals were altered by light it struck home with me. I never had any stuck pixel issues, but this forum is full of them.
You attacked a test that I found to be telling in my regard. Then a general misunderstanding ensued.

You have my sincere apologies for my lack of respect. After all, you're entitled to your opinion. That's what keeps the board going.
 

New member
Username: Gingerbaker

Post Number: 7
Registered: Feb-05
Thank you, Jared. I appreciate your response. :-)

The torture test, as you say, is an interesting study. I think it is safe to say that it shows, using a small number of units, operated under specific conditions, that there was degradation of the panels in LCD units not seen in DLP technology.

This may have important implications for the potential purchasers of home televisions. And it may not.

I think it does not, because of the lack of the crucial evidence that the problems inherent in a/v or FP projectors are also present in LCD RP televisions.

According to LCD GUY, the spacial geometry of the bulb to the LCD panel in LCD RP is further away. Even small incremental differences here would have huge consequences, as heat falls off exponentially by distance. And there is less heat to begin with, as the lamps are less powerful.

That the technologies are different makes sense, I think, because the tested units must throw their light across a room to illuminate a large screen, while televisions must illuminate a smaller screen which is only inches away.

Different designs, different geometries. And no proof of similar design flaws.

And the burdon of proof is a large one...

LCD RP TV's have been in the marketplace, large numbers of them, for a long time. Easily surpassing the time frames where trouble cropped up in the study.

Evidently without a single problem. Though, do we really have any data on this?

I sure wish we did!

I sure wish a 60" hard panel LCD with a super contrast ratio and instant refresh would come out for $500.00 too :D :D

Anyway - thank you for your kind response - you were gracious in the face of my bitter onslaught!

Well done. :-)
 

aNONYMOUS2
Unregistered guest
Wow, I should have know when the page took a few seconds to load. I can only conclude there is a deep phsycological need to defend against buyers remourse. The fact that so much time and effort has been put into discussing the Pro's and Con's, and that I took the 3 hours to read it, proves it. Alot of great information and Kevin summed it up best for me. I have a Panisonic PT50LC rp LCD. ANYONE GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT?
 

New member
Username: Gingerbaker

Post Number: 8
Registered: Feb-05
I have a 17 year-old Sony XBR CRT TV on its last legs.

Can I come over to watch your TV? :D
 

Bronze Member
Username: Hampersnow

Post Number: 24
Registered: Dec-04
to those of you with the Sony "wf" series LCDs.how much adjustment does this series allow you to do as far as correction ,color ,black levels etc ?from my reading i see that Sony has another more expensive series that lets you adjust the picture in ways only available in service menus on their other sets.can you get to the service menu or is this only available to technicians ? i like to tweak settings myself. as i am also interested in the Hitachi sets ,if anyone could tell me how much tweaking can be done on this set ,i'd appreciate it.
i would like to add that after taking a DVD to look at DLP sets (toshiba and samsung) and the Hitachi LCD ,i know it will be the LCD for me. personally i felt the DLP sets ,in 2 different stores ,both gave the DVD a "smeary' look. the LCD set looked much closer to the sharp image i have on my 35" CRT.thanks
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
I don't know about the wf but I have the 42WE655 and I really didn't have to do any adjustments to this tv other than setting the brightness and contrast to my liking. I've been a tech in TV for 30 years and know a good picture when I see one and Sony has a good one in this model. Yes, we buy a lot of Sony at the station but there is good reason. I see plenty of detail in the blacks when they are not crushed by unskilled techs during production of the program. I know where analog and digital black levels are set and how different that looks on a monitor set up for one or the other. SD signals are not going to look great on a big 16X9 monitor but the LCD monitor by Sony does a better job than the DLP by Samsung. It's only my opinion. I know everybody has a different eye and they know what they like. It is hard to just tell people what to look for. You have to show them. I can't do that here. All I kinow is, out of the box, Sony looked great, Samsung DLP needed a lot of work.
 

messenger
Unregistered guest
To all:

I was doing some internet shopping and stumbled on a Sony flat panel LCD that uses the WXGA panels, which is the same as whats used in the projection models and it says that the panels have a 60,000 hr panel life. Maybe this will put an end to the panel fade issue I have been reading about. Then again, maybe it won't:-) Here's the link
http://www.activelight.com/products/productdetails.asp?chPartNumber=SON-FWD-42LX 1&MFR=SONY
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
Let's see...that's maybe 8 years.
Oh boy...where's the line!
 

messenger
Unregistered guest
Are you saying you watch 20.5 hrs of television a day? Wow, you must not have a job or a life.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
Are you saying you believe the display will actually last 60k hours? Sure...right!

I have a job. I work at home. My wife doesn't work. She likes to stay up late. It's 18.7 hours per day according to my lamp meter.

DMD chips will last beyond 30 years! Lamp please!
The LCD panel won't last 10 years. New TV time!
 

Messenger
Unregistered guest
There is no reason to believe the panels wont last 60,000 hrs.Are you saying that you believe the DMD chip will last 30 years? Yeah right! Show me proof. I happen to work in the semiconductor business, and know for a fact that chips can and will eventually fail. You will start to see a few cells fail to activate the mirrors,leaving you with dead pixels. Before long, you will have so many inactive mirrors, your screen will become unwatchable. Anyway, I was just passing by when I read this forum and I'm not getting involved in all the hoopla. Besides, I would never buy a DLP. Too many moving parts and a lousy reliability record. Yes the chip is a micro mechanical device. And refering to the color wheel, anything spinning at 9K RPMs is gonna wear out. Thats 4.7 BILLION revolutions per year of continuous running. No thanks. I would definitely consider LCD projection, but was looking for something more compact. I'm looking at flat panel displays (plasma or LCD) which I think are superior. At the place I work, we use flat panel LCD's for all the computers in the manufacturing fabs. These computers are on 24/7 and most have been in place for over 7 years now. Some of them have lost a bit of their brightness, but still have all their colors.
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
If I can get 7 or 8 years out of my Sony WE655 LCD TV I bought almost 6 months ago, I will be happy. By then, can you imagine what will be available and at what price. I bought my TV because I'm a tech in TV and wanted to watch our station and the others for free. I also need to see that we are looking good from time to time. I say you take your chances on whatever YOU feel looks the best. Use your eyes and not someone elses. It's your TV and your house. I took my Sony DV camcorder to CC and looked at all the TVs I was interested in and that's why I picked Sony. I also had the Samsung DLP in my house for a few weeks and had to send it back to Best Buy. These places give you 30 days. Take them up on it and take your time. One thing I have noticed though. I see a lot of people complaining about problems with Samsung DLPs. I don't see too many problems with the Sony LCD.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
You guys are so easy to raz!

"If I can get 7 or 8 years...I'll be happy."
Ah...members of the "throw away" society!

"Show me proof" you say?
That proves you haven't read this thread!
There is a link to a T.I. "white paper" (pdf) report on the R&D for failure assessment, but you're too busy. You just want to make unsubstantiated comments when you know nothing about the DMD chip. You're no expert on "Air Bearing" frictionless technology either, with your baseless comment on color wheels.

Here's a message for the "Messenger", get your facts straight before coming in on the end of a thread making foolish statements.
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
I didn't say I would throw my TV away. I still have CRT TV's that I've used for almost 20 years. I might use it for something. Things are going to change in the next 5 or 6 years and these TVs are just like computers. You're going to want the best they have by then. Yes, the TV cost me $2300. My car cost me $22000. I don't expect to keep that 30 years. Please don't quote TI in all of this. They make the chip. I've read the paper. It's the only test that was done though. What about all the people that are having problems with the DLP sets. Read the board. I would have kept my DLP set if I wasn't unhappy with the picture quality a first but after reading this board, I wouldn't buy one today. I might the next time I buy a big screen in 7 or 8 years but not today.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
Wrong paper! I'm not talking about the test!

The actual DMD chip has never failed in anyone's set. The N series and the P63 series had lamp and color wheel issues that were easily resolved under warranty. Even the screen smudge issue has been addressed. Some pissy people sent theirs back instead of working through the issue. Their loss! It's the best picture of any display on the market. Those who stuck it out are thrilled with theirs.

I'm glad you like to keep things for a long time. Me too! If it works, don't replace it.

I'll look for the "whitepaper" so you can see.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
Found it!

http://www.dlp.com/dlp_technology/images/dynamic/white_papers/153_Reliability_pa per.pdf

*************************************************
 

ogbuehi1
Unregistered guest
What is it with this 30 year lifespan stuff? There is not much that anybody likes to keep for 30 years, especially a tv. Even if the wheel itself lasts 30 years, I'm pretty sure everything else that's part of the tv isn't going to last 30 years. I just finished going through an indepth physics course and there is no such thing as "frictionless" technology. Unless this thing is in a perfect vacuum there's got to be some friction somewhere. And we know it's not a vacuum because it's an air bearing. At the speeds that this wheel spins at there's bound to be noticable amounts of friction, even in air. I think that each technology has it's plus' and minus' and that each individual has determine which type suits his taste. Alot of previous owners of the Samsung DLP have been giving it a bad rap, but I haven't heard of alot complaints about other DLP tv's......
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
These are your opinions! They are not based on fact.

Here is a quote from just one manufacturer.

"These ultra-smooth bearings glide on a pressurized thin film of air to support an applied normal load. Repeatable precision is achieved by maintaining a constant air gap, only microns thick, using a variety of highly stable preloading techniques. Since air bearings distribute their load over a relatively large and extremely flat area, they have built-in averaging effect that compensates for any minor irregularities in the reference surface. This enables extremely accurate, virtually frictionless motion, for extraordinary control of precision positioning and scanning processes."

I have a 72 Buick convertible. It drives as good as it looks and still hauls people and cargo from A to B. It's just one of many examples.

Don't be like "Messenger" and say things without having first hand knowledge.
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
As I stated before, you have to like what you see and only you can see it. SD programming is going to be around for some time to come and if your TV doesn't display it well..... That's the down fall of Samsung. It's not the DMD chip, it's the rest of the process. I saw a lot of DLP monitors at the CES in Vegas and really wanted a DLP TV but, at the time, there was only Samsung and RCA in the stores. I did my research and had both Samsung and Sony at home. I hope my Sony lasts for years. I don't want to buy another $2300 TV. I'll open yet another savings account to save for my next TV just in case though.
 

New member
Username: Patsrockon

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-05
I actually took back my Sony wf55 for the Sammy 5674. Only because i'm a perfection Geek. The LCD was terrific. Right out of the box. I saw the Sammy DLP and "just" liked the picture a little better. Better contrast, no screen door effect from 5 feet or more out. I sit about 9 feet out. There's an inherent brightness in the lCD's that certain people like, but I think the DLP is more lifelike. Whatever, I loved the Sony, my wife thought I was nuts for obsessing about the BEST picture, but she's reluctantly acknowledged the acurate video reproduction of the Sammy.
The "problems" with the DLP's simply are not there with the 5674. I've read about the rainbows occasionally, not like with the earlier models though. I've never seen one, but the screen door effect of the LCD bugged me if I let it, and unfortunately being the Geek that I am, I let it. But to those happy LCD owners, good for you.
 

New member
Username: Patsrockon

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-05
Fortunately, almost all the stuff I watch is HD, it's so addicting why bother with SD. The SD is tolerable, but was a little better on the Sony wf55. But DVD's are better on the Sammy, and that's simply a fact. DVD or SD??? Hmmm.
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
I can't wait to go back to the CES in 2006 to see what's new. We'll just have to wait a year or 2 to see how the LCDs hold up. If they have problems after 2 or 3 years, we'll all hear about it and I will be right here complaining if it happens to me. So, Samsung shook out the peoblems so I bet next year there will be something else we will all want to buy and hate ourselves for buying what we did.

As I said before, I work in TV and we ain't doin our news in HD any time soon. There are going to be a lot of things we air in SD. Network will probabaly be the only thing for a good year or two. I bought my TV to watch TV. Not to play games or watch DVDs all the time. You can't wait forever to make a TV purchase so if I bought the wrong one, I'll do the same thing I did when I bought the Hitachi Hi8 camcorder.
 

Henry CA
Unregistered guest
I am so glad to find this place. Here are my questions:
1) By 60k hours, does it mean half life? if it is, I am worried since at 30K it will degrade to a somewhat very noticeable level. This is what happened to plasma TV. The phousphros cell's half life is now at 6-8k, so in 4-5 year your set will shine at 50% of its original brightness.
2)Is DLP a better way in sense of contrast and brightness by default? will this alone gives DLP a winner?
3)DMD has much less 'blind space' between the micromirrors than that of LCD pixels(there is terminology for this). Thus 20-30% more light reflecting area than LCD transmissive area.
4) There is no defect on single micromirror. But LCD pixels can have up to 12 pixels defect which is still within the quality spec., as for laptop display. The pixel can die out as time goes by. I learned this from a Panasonic sale person.
5)How bad is the color wheel problem? I don't think it can be replaced by yourself.

DLP is a newcomer, I don't think it gonna replace LCD, but LC on Silicon maybe. It is a new technique which also uses reflective light to project.

Cheers!
 

Jared Thomas
Unregistered guest
grfunk,

If you had an SD signal problem you must have been watching cable with splits. A direct tv signal on an SIR TS360 receiver using component cables is crystal clear. Sorry you had the signal problem, but it wasn't the set. Some DTV converters are better than others too! SD looks very good to me on my HLP5063. Wow...I'm a rhym'n Simon today!
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
No. I had cable piped right into both the DLP and LCD using the tuner inside. I also had a digital cable set-top box and used the component outputs. The direct RF input looked better. I had DishNetwork for awhile but I hated the compression. I would see it during basketball games mostly. Didn't have Dish for football. HD looked great on both DLP and LCD. I think I had the HLP4663. Sorry, but SD looked waxy on the Samsung and looked a lot better on the Sony.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
Henry CA,

I don't know about the 60k half life thing, but it sounds reasonable.

DLP's don't loose contrast and only loose brightness as the lamp reaches it's end. Pop in a new lamp every few years and enjoy a like-new display for decades.

You are correct about the pixel spacing in DLP being less than LCD. That's why LCD's have the screen door effect.

If there is a defective micro-mirror, and I'm not saying it's ever happened or ever will, it won't be ignored by the manufacturer like LCD is. It will be repaired under warranty.

The new DLP models are using an "Air Bearing" frictionless color wheel. It's a non-issue! Older models are having these new wheels installed as the old one wears out.

As for thinking that DLP won't replace LCD you are clearly mistaken! Here is one poll. There are others I'm sure.

http://www.digitalhomecanada.com/forum/showthread.php?t=21206

****************************************************************
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
grfunk,

Cable sucks in Dallas! Especially the STB's.

I have DTV Sat and nothing looks waxy on component cables, but DVI from the STB messes with the color, so, I use component cables.

Which Sony did you go with?
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
One thing I haven't thought about but decided to go take a look at was our Sony Plasma monitor we have hanging in our lobby. It's a SD widescreen but it has been hanging there in a brightly lit lobby for the past 6 years and it still looks great. We run it at least 9 hours a day, a least 5 days a week. I'm not counting the hours the night shift turns that thing on. That's over 14,000 hours of use. How long are plasmas suppose to last before they look like crap? This thing still looks really good.
 

Henry CA
Unregistered guest
DLP4me, too.

I am leaning towards DMD for its intrinsic advantage over LCD RP. But since it's still relatively new, there are problem in Sammy's 63/65 sets.
DLP4me, I read that you live in Dallas home of TI. What do you say about HD2+ vs. HD3 vs. xHD3? Sammy's next generation will have xHD3, but will it have air bearing color wheel?
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
The wheel is an R&D production change.

The xHD3 will be awesome when the price drops next year.

Klaus loves his HD2+ Mustang in his 74.

I love my HD3 in my 63.

To each, his own! No 65's, though.
If price matters it's a 63.
For a few hundred more it's a 74 or 85.
For those with deep pockets, wait for the xHD3.
 

grfunk
Unregistered guest
I have the Sony KDF-42WE655. I tried using the "Digital" cable box with component cables and the SD signals still looked waxy on the Samsung. I used the S-Video input on the monitors at CC when I brought my DVcam into the store to see what all of them looked like. At the time of purchase last October, Samsung did not have the digital tuners like the Sony. I run basic cable into the RF input and pick up digital channels that carry VOD. I call it video on someone else's demand. I was going to switch back to Dish or DirectTV but then I wouldn't have my free movies.
 

DLP4me!
Unregistered guest
I here that! You're not the first person that I've heard of who can pull in digital signals on a basic hook-up. I think it's great. Makes it almost worth the price!
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