Archive through August 15, 2005
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4795 Registered: May-04 | Dak - Since we had no particular destination in mind when we set out, it's hard to tell if we're there yet. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4796 Registered: May-04 | Dak - ha |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2560 Registered: Dec-03 | It's possable Jan but there are ways to word things so they don't sound as strong or as a complete disagreement but more of a "I'm not sure I'll have to ponder that" Instead of making the poster wish they had never posted it only to be shot down. It may make some gun shy and not want to put down there true fealings for fear of being ridiculed. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 364 Registered: May-05 | Allright, so it wasn't that funny, BUT, I can also laugh myself, especially when I miss the mark, which happens fairly often. Hey, we hit 700 Jan, well done. Anyone for 800? OK, I've tried twice to sum up, get us back on subject and made the attempt to answer outstanding (unanswered as opposed to superior -althought they may have been that too) questions. Either no one liked my summary or my answers, because the questions remain unanswered by the bulk of the crew, although John did take a run at a couple of them. So, Jan, would you like to give the "Top Ten" qualities and we could take a shot at percentages that appeal to each of us OR do you have another destination in mind? |
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Unregistered guest | Kegger I think you are right on the money. We have gotten very personal at some places along the way. And sometimes it been moving very fast so that several thoughts have over lapped. When that has happened people have felt ignored or stepped on. That's a shame. Those contributions were valid and have had their affect. If you look back through this thread you will see points people made comming back from other people, referenced in a different way etc. My point is that I think all the input has been heard wheather there was apparent exceptance at the time or not. People have been heard. OK Jan..Top Ten list....hangin a left ? OBTW....can I have that recipe? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 837 Registered: Mar-05 | Sorry to bring up bad feelings Margie. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe I don't understand? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4799 Registered: May-04 | As best as I can figure we've got words such as 1) "effortless"; 2) "engaging" and 3)"involving"; 4) "having a black background of silence"; 5-6) "allows us to envision what is (not) there"; 7)"relaxed"; 8) "allows us to relive emotions" or 9) "find new suprising moments" and, of course, 10) "sounds like the real instruments". That's our Top Ten. You'll have to ask Letterman for more than what I've provided. That's about one item for every 70 posts. Not as good as I'd hoped, but admirable none the less. This is the highest number of postings under the "Speakers" heading. What has happened, for the most part, is the civility has remained pretty high. Especially for a thread that has generated so many hard feelings. With only a few exceptions, there has been no foul language or parentage slurs. I would like to thank everyone for that. What you take away from this thread is up to you. I guess if it's only the knowledge to never participate in another thread like this, that's sufficient. I've learned a few things along the way, and want to let everyone know I appreciate your participation. There have been a lot of unanswered questions. If you feel the great, overwhelming need to revisit "Do you listen", it will be here for awhile and anyone can chime in with a response to some thing that strikes you as important. ********************* There's the list above that includes everything we have agreed upon. Everyone can put their preferences in order. If you want you can list your present system also and assign a rank according to how close you come to the bullseye with each item. So, rank each article, separating things like "is/not", from one to ten. Then rank each article for your present system from one to ten. If you want to add something like "vibrant three dimensionality" which we never got past arguing about, that's your choice. Who's first? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4800 Registered: May-04 | Margie - You certainly can have the recipe. How do you want me to send it to you? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 841 Registered: Mar-05 | Margie, you deleted the post that I was refering to , the one where you compared me to Paul, whew low blow. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe I haven't deleted any post...I wouldn't know how. I might have found something similar in things you have said but I doubt it I have no fix on who Paul is. I've never had a problem with anything you've said. In fact you are one of my favorites. I don't compare people, Joe. Could you tell me a little of what happened? This troubles me, I have never tried to poke or deliver a low blow to you at all. |
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Unregistered guest | Jan I am quilleran@sbcglobal.net. How 'bout email? Joe ? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3565 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, "The only reason I came back was to tick John A off for misrepresenting the truth about the said 'acrimony' .." He did not knowingly misrepresent the truth. If you know it, MR, please explain it. He will listen. It is what we all want. ---- Posted on Thursday, July 21, 2005 - 07:43 am: Let's just ignore the the thread and quote Shakespeare. I thought the "Old Dogs" was for our own 'whatever goes' shite. You right John, it's all about you. That about does it for me here folks. ---- What provoked this...? And "Old Dogs" had a purpose, once. I share Dakulis's puzzlement about what Art, Rick and My Rantz take exception to. Clearly they did take exception, and feel strongly about something. I do not know what it is, or even if it is the same thing. I know what I take exception to: There you go again John, telling porkies! "- distortion seems to be his forte' of late. " I see nothing I wrote that justifies these accusations. I should like to know what it might be. Anyway, I said I was leaving and for the sake of letting you all continue in harmony I will. I may appear on other threads to rate music or offer some lowly advice. Otherwise, that's it from me. So, I am a liar, and that's your last word on the subject....? If I touched a raw nerve somewhere for My Rantz, Art and Rick, or for anyone, please, can someone - anyone - explain where, and how? I agree with Kegger: ...there are ways to word things so they don't sound as strong or as a complete disagreement but more of a "I'm not sure I'll have to ponder that" Instead of making the poster wish they had never posted it only to be shot down. I don't mind complete diagreement, personally. I do mind defamation. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 845 Registered: Mar-05 | I owe Margie an apology, it was Dak making the comments about comparing me to Paul. I am sorry Margie, and Dak Your mama wears army boots! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4810 Registered: May-04 | j.c. - You need to get over this fixation with boots. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 721 Registered: Sep-04 | Geez Joe have you got a boot f3tish or what?!  Margie, your definitions of bright and warm are pretty accurate in my book. Most people dislike a bright sound. However most people like a degree of warmth, rather than a completely neutral presentation. It seems to give them a sense of security. However, as systems get better, the level of warmth required seems to reduce. Another definition is when a system sounds slow. As many of you will know, it's the bass line which drives along a piece of music, particularly jazz or modern rhythmic music. A slow system is one where the bass line seems to be following the rest of the track instead of driving it along. These are the core definitions I think. Most others are variations on the theme. The very pertinent point was also made that all systems suffer a compromise of some sort or another. ombining components is an art in order to bring a sympathetic match and get a synergistic result. Given that all systems are a compromise, I'd rather choose a system with musical attributes than one which accentuates neutrality. This is because I want to have an emotional connection, whether it's the system or not. There are others who would tell you that it's better to have the neutral system because it's more accurate. Fine, but I'm a Taurus so I'm all about emotional impact, not cerebral development. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4811 Registered: May-04 | Margie - I'll send you the recipe as soon as I can type it out. |
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Unregistered guest | Joe....No prob! Jan...No hurry. John...I've paid attention and I don't know what caused that conflict 'tween you guys. But defamation....your character has not been lessoned in my eyes! No one else eather. BTW Thanks for your help finding a copy of "Bolero". I had hoped someone knew a good recording but I guess it isn't popular. I did go online and found one at Amazon worth a gamble. It arrived yesterday. Only had time for one quick listen but I think this will do. I've loved that piece since I was a kid listening to Dads LPs. Owned a couple of recordings over the years but not very good ones and none for a long time. Anyway I'm happy, thanks for your help! Frank....good post! I hadn't connected "slow" with warm but I see your point. I liked your last paragraph (go Taurus). It's musical/neutral that is a bit of a hook for me. I have a sound in my ears that I would call musical but no words to discribe it. And neutral seems so sterile but I don't think it has to be. So I hang on a hook. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 369 Registered: May-05 | Joseph, My mother is deceased, never wore army boots and any insult was purely intentional. LOL Hey, are you a podiatrist with the whole foot thing? I'm just glad you're not a urologist, myself. Frank, great post. I'm not certain that I agree with wanting a system to be "warm" but I understand your rationale and I'll fight to protect your right to have such a system, or even wear army boots, if it suits your fancy. Jan and Margie, I'll take a stab at the whole ranking thing and system set up later. I've actually got to get some work done today because I'm leaving for a long weekend in No. Cal. to marry a niece off near Tahoe. Geez, life is tough. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 848 Registered: Mar-05 | I was introduced to boots on mothers by Jan , but I will stop now folks. Dak , I am sorry if I offended you, I didn't know though. Frank, you and I share not only star signs, but also Totems. I don't know about you, but when I first heard the Totems, I thought they were bright. I have now come to find with my ears that they are just more "accurate" in the high end than what I was used to hearing. I stayed at the store (comfortable seating helped) for two hours at two different times before purchasing mine to be sure. What got me was the fact that I couldn't find songs that impressed me, when auditioning, but I did not want to stop trying. It was then I realized I had found something that "did not impress" me and loved every minute of it. Does that mean these are the greatest speakers in the world, no. It means that these simply get me closer to music nirvana than what I have had in the past(ear training in progress). By a long shot no less. I again don't have any of you guys' (and gal) ears so my interpretation of what is "accurate" , "warm" or "bright" could be totally different. My question to you Frank is, do you find the Totems to be warm? if so would you describe warm as to be a distortion from original recording? then why is it we like warm if it's not accurate? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4814 Registered: May-04 | Frank - There's not much I would argue with from your last post. I have slightly different impression of "slow" and find it to be more in keeping with what I understand to be a "fast" or "quick" system. But, that is the problem with discussing the system; isn't it? A bit like "fair and balanced". Everyone thinks their view point is fair and balanced. How many are? It is the same with Margie's rough idea of "warm". A system that tends to put some emphasis on the bottom octaves (as I believe her definiton implied) would be "fat" in my book. Could be "fast", "quick" or "slow" as a whole system, but I wouldn't claim it to be "warm". My idea of "warm" is to turn the thermostat down a bit on the top octaves. Roll things off above 7-10kHz and you will get a "warm" system whether there is some emphasis on the bottom or not. Now "thin" is another thing all together. Lord, this gets confusing! Sympathetic? Sounds a lot like yin yang to me. Yes, all systems are compromises; and synergy, or synchronicity, are the overriding concerns in getting a system to reproduce music, as the press says, "punching above its weight class". The idea of nuetrality is a tough and touchy subject. Everyone says they want a nuertal system but few come close to that reality. Let me draw your attention to the comments I made on the "Soundstaging and imaging" thread on Wednesday, August 03, 2005 - 01:07 AM. (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/151442.html) As I've said on the forum before, once you put a speaker into a real world room, you've given up some nuetrality and each room will affect the sytem in a different manner. So there really is no such thing as truly nuetral in the domestic application. Maybe it's close; but accurate and nuetral it probably is not. Frank, you and I both know when you show a typical client a system with components whose nuetrality you could prove with lab tets, they seldom have a positive reaction to the overall sound. I can't count the number of comparisons I made between Celestion SL600's and Klipsch Cornwalls. The Celestions were a much tougher sale for many reasons. Even another salesperson had little use for the SL600's and thought the Cornwall to be an excellent "value" speaker. To draw on the photographic anologies again, not many people want a film that is honestly faithful to the subject. A Fujifilm that slightly oversaturates the colors, in a most pleasing fashion of course, is the preferred film choice. It is a problem Kodak fought for years until they finally began producing a film that can do what Fuji does and what people were buying. Even those who can compare the picture of the flower to the real thing generally prefer to have our memories slightly enhanced. The same holds true for those who can compare the sound of real instruments and live music making to the reproduction we desire in our homes. A touch of enhancement is not a bad thing in most instances. I agree most of us will prefer a system which reproduces music in a "musical" way. But, if that is all that comes out of this thread, wouldn't we have been better off asking at about post #57 "what is a musical system?" That would have been such a waste of the last 700+ posts. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4815 Registered: May-04 | On another note, I am a Libra. So I will go tit for tat with anyone on an emotional response scale. Is there such a thing? John? You always have a test to place me on some sort of scale. What's out there? We can argue over who is the most emotional of this bunch. Or have they already left? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 371 Registered: May-05 | Joseph, absolutely no offense taken, I know none was intended. I've been following along long enough to know that Jan started the "army boots" thing and it's still somewhat amusing. (Although I miss my mother, I don't miss what she was suffering through so I stated her passing merely as fact in response.) Now, she may have worn army boots in the past, after all, my father (also deceased) was in the army when he met her and I didn't really question them on their early life experiences so much. (Really didn't want to know, any more than my kids want to know about my wife's and mine.) LOL Anyway, I've got pretty tough outer skin on most things. I'm a Virgo although I have no idea what that means, don't really follow the whole "what's your sign?" thing. Takes me back to old 60s (70s?) song, "Sign, sign, everywhere a sign" and I always felt it was a poor way to judge another human being. Why would we want to presuppose how someone might be based upon their birthdate and disregard their life experience and exercise of free will? (Geez, the pysch degree is coming out again, back boy, back!) Tennis anyone? (Hey, I tried chess earlier and got no takers.) |
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Unregistered guest | Dakulis I can tell you what you being a Virgo means... You were born in September. I was born in October. That makes you older than me. I don't get into the sign thing much, just a light hearted fun thing. I agree with you, poor way to judge......For example....Jan and I are both Libra (HEEAVYY) but I suspect we don't seem alike by out post. Grin! Jan...Wow I'm going to go back and re-read this thread. Maybe it just went too fast at some points. I thought I understood what was ment by our "terms" but I guess not. Joe your ears are fine, in fact they are young and healhty. Sounds like you did a great job of choosing your speakers. I wish I had heard them and when I am a bit more mobil I will seek them out for a listen. I think one of the biggest disadvantages we have on this thread is that we all are not listening to the same music on the same equipment or the same live performance. We all are trying to discribe what we hear but quite literally we are not hearing the same thing. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4819 Registered: May-04 | Margie - I would say that goes back to the point made quite awhile ago. Describing the sound of the system is difficult because we can't all hear that exact system in that room. Hopefully, thinking about how the live performance sounds and affects us makes the idea of musical qualities a more universal experience and therefore a better way to discuss what we hear and want to hear in the reproduction of music in our homes. But, maybe not. Possibly only the 800th post will yield the validity of the concept. If then even. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4836 Registered: May-04 | Well, shut my mouth!!!!!!! https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/152972.html "Thread: List of MUSICAL bookshelf speakers for auditioning... " People really think there are such things!? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3577 Registered: Dec-03 | Margie, Thanks. No, I do not know what the conflict is about, either. I made some posts concerning qualities in music, on July 21, which I thought were relevant and might be helpful, but they were followed by the allegeation that it was "anything goes shite" and "all about you" - meaning me. I'd tried to make the point before that describing music often involves saying something about oneself. I was not saying that was a wrong thing to do, only that we could try to distinguish what is really in the music, which other people can hear, from our own reactions to it. It was the reamrks "telling porkies" , "misrepresenting the truth" and "distortion is his forte" that were asserting dishonesty on my part. I still take exception to that. It is not the case, and there are no grounds for supposing it. Jan, I can think of no emotional scale, sorry! I still think wanting musical speakers makes as much sense as wanting a musical bookshelf to put them on. Frank, I have also said before that I am lost about the idea of rhythmic bass. This applies to also to the bass driving along the music. It is just outside my realm of experience. It seems to me the bass player is either ahead, behind, or right on time. Again, I am probably taking this more literally than you intended. This seems to be a general problem I have! Can you specify any recordings as examples of what you mean...? Or systems we all might have heard that get it wrong? My old active sub might have been a bit slow to react, I am not sure. Perhaps that's the sort of thing you mean, and bass timing is particularly conspicuous in active subs? |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 852 Registered: Mar-05 | I know this is not on subject, but I am very excited. Just got a Jolida 502b tube amp today and picked it up for an amazing $600 out the door. WAAAAHOOOO!!! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3579 Registered: Dec-03 | Great, Joseph!. I am a recent convert to tubes, too. I owe it all to the crazy guys on Rick Barnes's thread Tube Talk. Rick has a Jolida, I can't remember the model. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 854 Registered: Mar-05 | I am having problems already though. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 856 Registered: Mar-05 | God it sounds good though. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2568 Registered: Dec-03 | joseph coulson If you want any info or have any questions on tube stuff you should visit and post on "tube talk" in the amp section on this board. There is a ton of info there and many who will gladly chime in on other info. See yu there, and welcome to the wonderful world of tubes! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 861 Registered: Mar-05 | TY keg. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3584 Registered: Dec-03 | Going back to August 01 and my discussion with Dakulis. He mentioned a recording of Holst's Suite "The Planets". Today's CD review had an hour on all available recordings of The Planets - currently thirty-five. Really fascinating. That program illustrated the many sorts of things of things you CAN say about music, performances, and recordings. They never discuss equipment. That is a good thing. However, the reviewer said the 1978 Boult version - yes, it is available on CD - was not up to today's standards of sound quality. He then played a clip which I thought sounded very good. So I wondered what his reference equiment was. It is amazing the diversity of recordings, approaches, and interpretations. If you would like to know the bottom line - i.e. the final, single recommendation, I can post it. It was a pleasure to learn. But if you decide to listen to the programme it might spoil the drama. http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio/aod/radio3_aod.shtml?radio3/cdreview Should I post this someplace else.....? You OK, JC.....? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3586 Registered: Dec-03 | Another topic from many posts ago: discussion with diablo about live broadcasts. For example diablo, Monday, August 01, 2005 - 08:36 pm, and posts following that. I listened on stereo FM radio last night to the Gothenberg SO doing Sibelius 5 and a great encore from Tapiola, at the Royal Albert Hall. I thought that was a brilliant broadcast. For me, there really was a sense of being there. No recording every really gets close to the feeling of participation I can get from a good live transmission. It is in "real time"'. Probably it helps if you know the venue. For any in UK, and interested, the repeat is next Friday 2 p.m. I shall try make time to tune in, partly to see if the compression is introduced during the day, as diablo suggested, if I understood correctly. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 866 Registered: Mar-05 | Great John. Don't know what was going on but it's fine now. Guess it had been sitting for a while and one of the connectors was loose. Great stuff. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4892 Registered: May-04 | Somewhat off topic, but included in our earlier discussions was this subject; "Women Want Electronics Too". The article is mostly a fill the pages with pap sort of nonthink piece, but since this thread isn't doing anything right now ... ********************* "Of course, experts also emphasize that women's desire for simplicity and elegance doesn't mean they want superficially enhanced products. "The breakdown occurs when people think they can put a pink cover on it or a cup holder on it and be done," says Paul Rand, director of Ketchum's global technology practice. Women want features that help them achieve their goals'"whatever they are. And experts note that women often heavily research CE products before they enter the showroom in order to fully understand how they work. "They just do it differently than men," says Robinson, who has helped companies ranging from Intel to Pioneer to Panasonic improve marketing to women. She says women enter retail outlets "looking for a lot of information and a confirmation of what they have learned." The problem is that salespeople sometimes fail to listen or to ask the right questions. Part of the solution also may be for stores to hire more female sales associates. Campbell, who teaches a course about selling CE products to women for corporate clientele, says the question comes a lot. "Recruiting that talent is the next best step," she says. "You can't wait for it to walk in the door." ***************** I think the picture of the cute Ikea shopper at the head of the article violates the principle stated in the first paragraph of my quote. My feeling is a picture of Ralph and Alice Kramden in mid "To the moon" stages would have been more appropriate. |
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Unregistered guest | Thanks Jan.... Maybe my next career should be in Audio Sales.. Oops...forgot.. I'm not cute and 22 anymore!! I've gone back through the first 400 post. I want to finish before trying to rank my system. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4898 Registered: May-04 | https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/products/articles/114726.html |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3588 Registered: Dec-03 | Most of those words describe ways in which the sound from the speaker differs from that of a reference of some sort; they mostly describe kinds of "colouration". I think this fits with the idea that, when all those qualities are absent, there is less you can say. Except "lifelike" and such things. This also seems to work for tube amplification. It seems to be easier for us to describe the solid-state sound when we switch back to it than it is to describe "Tube sound" when we hear it for the first time. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 875 Registered: Mar-05 | Doesn't all of this fit into the same idea of "buy what does not impress you" when describing sound from hifi setups? The less that we* can say about what qualities a certain setup has, the better. Right. WE* - We being people who have a passion for this and are not getting paid for typing in here. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3595 Registered: Dec-03 | That's very good, j.c. I never quite understood Jan's "buy what does not impress you", but I think I can see the point, now. Do not buy a component that leaps out at you: it will go on doing that even when you are trying to listen to the music. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4917 Registered: May-04 | Try it take the pebble, Grasshopper. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 891 Registered: Mar-05 | AHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! T U B E S ! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4988 Registered: May-04 | It has been a week since the suggestion was made to rank your preferences. Has everyone decided they actually have none, or are we still thinking? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 402 Registered: May-05 | Jan and Company, Geez, I'm afraid I got lost in CA., returned to the Battle in Seattle on Lings 3 and finally wandered back to see what I had missed. Well, a few interesting posts but my last suggestion remains unanswered. I thought maybe we were in the "I'll show you mine if you show me yours" mode and no one wanted to go first. LOL Margie, actually I was born in August, SO, I'm really really older than you. Joseph, just don't put those "TUBES" in your ears, you'll never get them out and they just don't sound right. How come I never get any pebbles? OK, random thoughts now gone, I'll return another time and "show you mine." Later. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 923 Registered: Mar-05 | What does eveyone listen on anyway. Everyone here probably knows mine cause I blab too much , but here goes: Totem Rainmaker on sanus 24" stands, dh labs t-14 silver speaker wire, jolida 502b 2 x 60w tube amp, Sony DVP-CX985 dvd/sacd/cd changer, apature interconnects, Monster hts-2600 power center, a hug red comfy couch in a great listening area (most important, see here:https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-theater/130160.jpg Please do tell about yours folks. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 925 Registered: Mar-05 | huge* not hug lol |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4990 Registered: May-04 | Dak - I suggested you try for the pebble in the 5803 thread (https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/152719.html) but attention was quickly diverted to how many IC's can Denon pack into a receiver and how many MIPS (millions of instructions per minute for all you folks who care) can those IC's process to allow you to virtually move your speakers instead of physically moving my chair. Oh, well. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4991 Registered: May-04 | Here's my main two channel system: VPI HW-19 III turntable w/ outboard power supply Rega RB 300 tonearm Grado TLZ moving magnet cartridge (older Grado) Sound Anchors Turntable stand. Denon 2900 DVD/SACD/DVD-A disc player Audible Illusions Modulus 2D vacuum tube pre amplifier DIY equipment stand 2 McIntosh MC240 vacuum tube power amplifiers run as monoblocks DIY amplifier stands Rogers LS3/5a BBC minimonitors Panamax 5100 surge protector/AC conditioner DIY speaker stands Assorted cables and connections, the main speaker cables are from OCOS and the interconnects are Monster, MIT, Audioquest, Straitwire and some pieces that were given to me as audition pieces in the development of other lines Tiptoes, Audioquest footers and assorted isolation devices Various room treatments The equipment has all been tweaked to some extent, but the effort was to get the most out of commercial products and not to alter the sound in any way. |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 406 Registered: May-05 | Jan, I just spent 10 minutes looking for that pebble on the other thread and all I got was this t-shirt and a rock up along side my head. OH, you mean separates, tubes and such. Well, that is giving me headaches as I wander the sites you suggested and look at the various, newer tube options. THere is a guy, actually somewhat of a friend/acquaintance who manufactures his own amps here in Spokane. These are incredibly low watt, high amp jobbies with Russian tubes that sell for $10,000 and up BUT I'm sure he'd give me a listen and I'd bet he has some suggestions and some decent sounding speakers. I'm going to make an appt. and see what I can do there. Anything to report on the Lings or are going to keep that to yourself, now? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4993 Registered: May-04 | I believe you've found the post. Sunday, August 07, 2005 - 09:07 am https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/152719.html |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 734 Registered: Sep-04 | If you're willing to say here what your system is, what's the reason for not putting your system in your profile? My system is in my profile (just click on my name to read it). Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3604 Registered: Dec-03 | I agree with Frank. My own audio profile is not complete, however. I filled it all in once and the ecoustics web server lost it. I did not know about the Denon 2900, Jan! Well, that's modern, digital equipment! Re speakers (this topic) There is a new Stirling LS3/5a "V2" reviewed very favourably in Sept HiFi News. http://www.stirlingbroadcast.net/ They cannot use the original KEF drivers but have tried a way around, using other components, to maintain the characteristics of the old. Amongst which the Rogers are one of the references, as you know. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4998 Registered: May-04 | Well, actually, no, the Rogers are not one of the references. None of the 3/5a "manufacturers" did much more than assemble the speakers with parts they acquired from other sources. Rogers made their own cabinets and put together the X-overs for their version of the BBC licensed product. All X-overs and cabinets were manufactured to BBC specifications however. Some manufacturers did less and some more (more being KEF). The drivers always came from KEF and always had to fit the BBC specs. In the early 1980's the drivers KEF was supplying had drifted far enough out of spec so that more were being rejected by the various manufacturers than were being accepted. This led to the redesign of the woofer's surround and a small change in the X-over accompanied by the change from a 15 Ohm speaker to an 11 Ohm speaker. To minimize disputes about who was responsible for deviations from BBC spec, it was agreed KEF would also manufacture the X-overs at this time. Any 11 Ohm 3/5a is required to meet the spec that it can be substituted for a single 15 Ohm unit and the pair will still meet stringent BBC specifications. To my knowledge the only "reference" that was ever employed for the "sound" of the LS3/5a was the original speaker pair #001/002, that were kept at the BBC and eventually found their way into the hands of Spencer Hughes, if I remember correctly. In the Hifi News 3/5a shootout of 2001, the #001/002 pair, however, was disqualified from competing because, being essentially hand built units, their sound was considered so far superior to the standard production units that there was no comparison. http://home.freeuk.net/pwhatton/ls35a.html For anyone interested in hifi minutia the story of the LS3/5a is an interesting tale replete with names that are legendary in audio. The manufacture of the little shoe box is responsible for corporate rise and fall and even some espionage. The Linn Kan's and the JR (Jim Rogers) 149's relationship with the BBC design are examples of how much this speaker is interwoven into the history of audio. Probably much of its appeal comes from these issues as much as its sound qualities. I was aked to provide the equipment I own for comparison. In this case, I see no reason not to supply the information. On my profile I left the issue blank for the simple reason I prefer to be judged by what I put in print on this forum. I would prefer not to be judged by what I do or do not own. Besides, I can't imagine anyone on this forum has ever heard most of the equipment I own, let alone has a true, clear concept of how it all works together. Yes, John, the 2900 is new digital equipment. I finally got tired of cranking up the Victrola to hear Caruso. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3608 Registered: Dec-03 | "I would prefer not to be judged by what I do or do not own." I agree. Strongly. I thought a basic description of my audio system would help people evaluate my point of view, that's all. By "References" I just mean that the reviewer on HiFi News has the Rogers BBC LS3/5a, Jan, along with many other people. I am glad you enjoyed the "Wannabe shootout". The following month they reviewed a PCM speaker which should have been in the comparison, they said, but was not, for some reason. The Stirling LS3/5a V2 is 11 Ohms, not 14, and it does seem Stirling has gone to great lengths, also holds a BBC licence, etc. Apparently no-one can persuade KEF to make the original drivers again, so Stirling thought he should find a substitute. The bass is a modified 5" SEAS driver. The tweeter is from ScanSpeak. Whether the speaker should truly be called and "LS3/5a" is a matter of debate, I expect. It has some early-model feature such as screws at the back that can be tightened to varying degrees, exactly the same dimensions, and even identical Tygan grill cloth. The Denon is reputed to be one of the best "universal" players, of course. How do you find DVD-A and SACD, in stereo? Is this another topic....? |
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Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 409 Registered: May-05 | I'll update my profile and keep updating it as things change, which thanks to all you folks, they surely will change and change and . . . |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 929 Registered: Mar-05 | I didn't want to judge anyone by seeing what they own. I hope you guys know that. I was just curious with all the stuff available out there, what direction all of you went. So if I have offended , I am sorry. John, I was going to audition that prima luna before I was rewarded with the amazing price on the Jolida. Those speakers are quite intriguing Jan. They look simular in build to Harbeths no? The tube is a wonderful thing though, and Frank, GO TOTEM!! RAH RAH |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5012 Registered: May-04 | Harbeth was a manufacturer of the 11 Ohm LS3/5a's. Their version scored very well in the shootout. They never made a 15 Ohm version. If you look around at the companies that have sprung from the engineering department of the BBC, you will see numerous companies that hold to many of the same concepts that guided them while employed at the Beeb. Harbeth is just one among several. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 935 Registered: Mar-05 | lol where did you hear "the beeb". I am originally from Birmingham England and have not heard that since I have been over there, and that was 19 years ago! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5019 Registered: May-04 | As I once told a \i[very close friend}. I read a lot. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5020 Registered: May-04 | That's all balled up. Let's try that again. As I once told a very close friend. I read a lot. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5021 Registered: May-04 | Better. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 653 Registered: Jun-05 | Isnt Spender one of them? |
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Anonymous | Yes Tawaun, Spendor was one of the original companies. |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 752 Registered: Sep-04 | I could be wrong about this, but isn't there someone who's making 'original' LS3/5as again. Something about him having been able to get his mitts on the original tooling of the drive units or something... Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5030 Registered: May-04 | To my knowledge, Frank, there are only a few people working with the 3/5a. They are, for the most part, working on supplying replacement parts. Richard Allan is doing "new" 3/5a's by repairing and reconing old drivers. Stirling is supplying new speakers with the non-KEF drivers and their business sprung from rebuilding and then supplying new "reference grade" cabinets for the existing speaker. Cicable has been building replacement/upgrade X-overs for several years. If someone were to get their hands on the original equipment to manufacture new B110's and SP1003's, it would be a seismic shift in the business policies of the cottage industry that has been built around the 3/5a. Of course, it wouldn't be the first time the speaker has changed the course of the audio market. As far as I know from this side of the Pond, the use of the original euqipment to manufacture new drivers would be similar to the use of the original Richardson vacuum tube equipment being shipped to China. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 669 Registered: Jun-05 | It is a totally redsigned model Rogers out, I saw the review in HiFi News a couple months ago,I dont know who is making it but it seems to be a more conventional design either 8 ohm or 4 ohm load.I dont know if we are gona get it in the states or what,but they have it in the UK. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3623 Registered: Dec-03 | Dakulis, Going back to August 1st and "The Planets", I tracked down and bought that 1978 recording, on CD re-issue. It was released by EMI in its "Great Recordings of the Century" series, EMI 7243 5 67748 2 7. It is ADD, and "remastered at Abbey Road Studios and noise shaped via the Prism SNS system for optimum sound quality". It really is a tremendous performance, and also recording, in my opinion. I do not know what that reviewer found lacking in the sound quality. Tawaun, I saw that HiFi News review, and have tracked that, too. It is in the June 2005 issue, page 30. The speaker is called a Rogers LS3a. It is 8 Ohms. They are supplied in the UK by something called Royal Hi-Fi. They are apparently "built in Germany for the Hong Kong-based company that now owns Rogers International" so you are just as likely to find them in the US, I should think. They could be cashing in on the reputation. But the reviewer, who is an genuine LS3/5a freak, still thought they were really something. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5052 Registered: May-04 | There have been many 3/5a clones over the years. Very few have had the DNA patterns of the original. More often than not, they ended up being five legged frogs. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5053 Registered: May-04 | As an example of that DNA material, the Stirling reference cabinets are extra "lossy" with screw on backs instead of glued up boxes with a screwed on front baffle only. And, I can testify from experience, the amount of torque on the screws in the front baffle and holding the drivers makes a very noticeable difference in the 3/5a sound. Too tight, as you would expect by today's standards, and the sound dries up into a tiny little box. Just the right amount of torque and the speakers grow twenty fold in apparent size. I know that goes against your concepts of "there should be no room for wriggling", John. But, that's the 3/5a. I really don't know of a conventional box speaker where every component that goes into the speaker makes so much difference in the sound as it does in the 3/5a. The original 3/5a had a ladder type section in the high pass X-over. This was used to fine tune each speaker system by hand. A large portion of the problem with producing a 3/5a from the original plans is today's manufacturing techniques financially cannot replicate the hand work that went into the original design. (The cost of the Stirling speakers is evidence of that.) It is like trying to rebuild St. Peter's Basilica with today's building codes. There are small speakers that come close to the spirit of the original 3/5a. Spendor and Harbeth both make models that are similar in design; but I don't think anyone claims to be an exact duplicate. Most say the old style design and manufacturing techniques of the original 3/5a have been surpassed by today's materials and knowledge. They write off the 3/5a as a polite little Beeb box. Other listeners (Ken Kessler among them) think the sound of the original can never be duplicated. Some things are best left to stand on their own. God save the Queen! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3624 Registered: Dec-03 | I'll drink to that. Kessler is unhinged. As you may know, he reviewed the "new" Rogers LS3a. The problem is trying to find meaning in the words he uses. He may know a few things about loudspeakers. Who knows. Personally, I buy HFN to read the ads. Also John Crabbe. BTW Top of the pops for The Planets, according to the recent beeb Radio 3 review, was Joel Levy and the Atlanta Symphony, on Telarc. Eyebrows were raised, they said. Good thing. Great sound, and closest in interpretation to Holst conducting it himself - on his second, electrical recording, unfortunately not currently available. The Planets is a searching HiFi test, for sure. Also just great to listen to. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 202 Registered: Dec-04 | I don't know the state of Kessler's hinges, but he thinks that the tooling to produce the KEF drive units was passed on to Harbeth, according to his piece in this newsletter. I think there may be a lot of orignal B110 and T27s around in other speakers. They were popular drive units at the time and turned up in a few models, they were even available to DIY loudspeaker builders. I have read somewhere that the BBC got the pick of the crop and everyone else got the rejects. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 691 Registered: Jun-05 | John A., I looked all over the net I could not find anything about them. |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 203 Registered: Dec-04 | I think this is the new 'Rogers' model. I don't remember the originals having a port. |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 694 Registered: Jun-05 | Wow I didnt realize they looked that good. I wonder who are their us distributor. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5057 Registered: May-04 | "I have read somewhere that the BBC got the pick of the crop and everyone else got the rejects." Yep! More or less. The BBC lisenced manufacturers got the pick of the crop and then sorted through those units to find the pairs that would fit the especially stringent BBC specs. That so many units were falling outside of the spec caused the redesign by KEF in the early 1980's to the 11 Ohm model. Other than the prototypes, my understanding is the BBC never actually built any amount of 3/5a's. They passed the production on to the lisencees and took their speakers from those groups. The BBC did keep production runs of KEF drivers for repairs in the field when needed. And, the BBC allowed the plans for the speaker to be published as DIY kits early in production. This was where the 3/5a began to gain popularity with the consumer market. I'd have to check if anyone was truly interested, but I seem to remember a going price for a DIY 3/5a at approximately 67 Pounds in 1975. I sold the KEF B110/T27 (with X-over) kit as DIY and installed quite a few in homes as early in-wall designs. I should have bought a few spares, but since they would likely have fallen outside of the BBC spec, I didn't bother at the time. This must be terribly interesting to the other folks that were on this thread. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5058 Registered: May-04 | The original LS3/5a did not have a port. It is a sealed enclosure. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3625 Registered: Dec-03 | Tawaun, Yes, diablo has it with the E-Bay link. I can also find http://www.rogers.com.hk/ENG/spec-LS3A.php http://www.rogers.com.hk/brochure/LS3A-ENG.pdf To me, it does not look at all like an LS3/5a. As an aside, it is a good rule that when you see "British" on HiFi, it isn't. I really do not mind, but if the maker starts to mislead you with big letters on the box, it is not a good sign, in my opinion. Then the "LS3a" is just as likely to be misleading. Which it seems to be. Those people are selling words, not speakers. If I were in the market for speakers, I would definitely be interested in the Stirling LS3/5a V2. That looks much more like the genuine article. As Jan said, Richard Allan makes one with the original KEF drivers. See the web link http://www.ls35a.com/ (also below). diablo, Thanks for that Stereophile link. KK reads almost as if he is sober, there. He still plays with words (what are "tifosi"?) and makes in-jokes all the time. There are some useful links in that newsletter. I find myself questioning that man's judgement a lot. A few issues ago he seemed to fall for the magic card you lay on top of your CD player to permanently remove jitter from any CD in the tray. BTW the "LS3/5A support group" link in that newsletter is wrong. What they meant was http://www.ls35a.com/ Jan, "This must be terribly interesting to the other folks that were on this thread." Personally, I like details, and your posts are full of good information. This thread is under "Speakers" so we can't be far off topic. Then there is the reputation of those LS3/5a speakers, amounting to a cult. I wonder how many people have taken the trouble to register a domain name based on a speaker? Which reminds me, as Kessler might say, meaning "Now some more about me" http://www.quadesl.org http://www.quadesl.com Now, there's another legendary design.... (smiley). |
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Silver Member Username: DiabloFylde Coast, England Post Number: 205 Registered: Dec-04 | "KK reads almost as if he is sober, there. He still plays with words (what are "tifosi"?) and makes in-jokes all the time. " Maybe, as KK lives in Somerset, he is also called upon to review scrumpy on a daily basis, but missed out for once? Tifoso in italian means a 'passionate supporter', tifosi is the plural. When used outside Italy, it refers to Ferrari and Formula One. The term doesn't mean much unless you are either Italian or an F1 nut. Though maybe I've fallen into a similar trap. What will American readers make of 'scrumpy'?  Maybe this specific loudspeaker discussion should have got its own thread. Probably a bit late to start one now! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3629 Registered: Dec-03 | diablo, I suspect only the time zone difference prevented Jan getting with "tifoso". Thank you! Scrumpy. Arrrrrrr..... Yes, let's start an LS3/5a and ESL thread. Or two separate ones. It would be failing in my duty not to recommend the ESLs to go with your Quad IIs with passive pre-amp! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5062 Registered: May-04 | "It would be failing in my duty not to recommend the ESLs to go with your Quad IIs with passive pre-amp!" Genuine LS3/5a's would sound much better! How can the BBC lisence an 8 Ohm, ported enclosure with flat frequency response as a 3/5a replacement? Are they also considering the original product to be nothing more than a "polite Beeb box" from yesteryear? History is no longer meant to be relived; it is allowed to be rewritten. Is this just another commercial sell out to get some cash into a financially strapped organization? "The term doesn't mean much unless you are either Italian or an F1 nut." I stopped following F1 a few years back. It's probably just me longing for Scuderia Ferrari once again, but the amount of corporate sponsorship has changed the game from when I was younger. This is as much about advertising as it is about winning. The idea "race it on Sunday, sell it on Monday" has extended too far for my interests. http://auto.howstuffworks.com/enzo.htm So, if you don't mind; "The term doesn't mean much unless you are a nutty Italian." KK; he's an American. You know how those guys are. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3630 Registered: Dec-03 | "How can the BBC lisence an 8 Ohm, ported enclosure with flat frequency response as a 3/5a replacement?" The BBC did not do that. The Hong Kong company bought the name "Rogers", and is now hoping customers will not notice that "LS3A" is not the same as "LS3/5a". Their lawyers are probably quite happy about that, and also their sales and advertising division. Personally, I'd call that a scam. The Stirling LS3/5a V2 is a different case. I would take that much more seriously. Look here, Vigne, my speakers are bigger than your speakers.... |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 950 Registered: Mar-05 | Now is the perfect time to get back into F1 Jan, Shumy is not doing well at all and it's more competitive now. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5069 Registered: May-04 | "Look here, Vigne, my speakers are bigger than your speakers.... " And that means what, fella? Huh? Huh? That means what? Awww, your mother wears Army boots! |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 952 Registered: Mar-05 | OOOHHHH man see! Jan is the one who has the boot fetlsh. My tubes are bigger than all of ya's! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3633 Registered: Dec-03 | I do not understand this recurring reference to mothers and army boots..... OK, the LS3/5a vs ESL shootout. I will not need a flak jacket, I can take cover behind the panels. You can't so that with titchy little speakers. shaped like shoe-boxes.... With LS3/5a, you also have the problem of which is the best sub-woofer cable to use.... Otherwise, how do you get accurate thermonuclear explosions in, say, Mahler....? (Big smiley). |
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Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 755 Registered: Sep-04 | KK makes for a fun read, but I don't believe a word he says. After all, how can a reviewer who states publicly that there's no such thing as timing in a system be anything but deaf. He writes well but he's a novelist, not a reviewer. Oh and of course anything imported by Absolute Sounds (and Pistol as their subsidiary is called)is always fantastic. FYI, Ab Sounds and Pistol import Krell, Martin Logan, Audio Research, Sonus Faber, Koetsu, Copland, Wilson Audio, Theta, Jadis, Crystal Cable, Transparent and Prima Luna. Sound familiar? And yes, all products with around 100% markup over their home country prices. Take Ken seriously? Never. Enjoy his prose? Absolutely. Regards, Frank. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5082 Registered: May-04 | My 3/5a's may not be large enough to provide cover from what you are slinging at me, John, but they are not so arrogant that when they sense danger they take out the amplifier to spare themself. As someone's speakers would prefer to do. I'm sorry you are so totally oblivous to the facts of living with a true "monitor" loudspeaker that you do not realize the 3/5a's do not take kindly to the introduction of a subwoofer. In all actuality, they are quite opposed to the idea of another speaker trying to take over their responsibilities. Right honourable of them, I would say! |
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Silver Member Username: T_bomb25Dayton, Ohio United States Post Number: 705 Registered: Jun-05 | Wow! thats kinda ruthless a shot at the Quads,I think its a good idea to make that thread,along with Magnapans,Ohms,and Acoustic energy AE 1,its time some of these people on here learn about legendary speakers,and the impact they have had on the speaker industry. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3634 Registered: Dec-03 | Frank, Thanks. That is the same conclusion I have come to about Ken K. And, yes, I wonder about the vested interests. His Prima Luna reviews are OTT and do not really say anything. I bought one anyway. I am very pleased with it and think it is good value, whatever the breakdown of the fixed retail price. I do not begrudge dealers a markup for the service they provide, especially for low-volume items. If a share goes as backhanders to reviewers, then I do object. I also wonder why HFN lauds Icon Audio, for direct sale, and have never, to my knowledge, given space to the Affordable Valve Company, except for paid-for ads. Jan, You have forgotten we agree on subwoofers! They can be a good and cheap addition for computer speakers with cut-offs of 120 Hz or so; I had one on my computer and it was good. I think the whole "5.1" scheme was designed for this strategy - making music and movies better on very small speakers only any good, on their own, for speech. This is most Home Theater systems. Adding a sub to full-range speakers is fairly pointless. And can cause more problems than it solves, I agree. Of course I am winding you up about the LS3/5as. I wish I had a pair. With ESL 63s as mains, I am sure LS3/5as would make perfectly adequate surrrounds.... . Tawaun, That's a good idea for a thread. I said my bit about Quad ESLs on Quad Electrostatic Loudspeaker 63 but it was a short-lived thread. It's OK.....That JV guy is entitled to his opinions. I suppose. In theory. "Which subwoofer cable should I get?" was a sort of standing joke on Old Dogs, so I admit I was trying to stir things up a bit. Things will only get really rough if I find an Italian subwoofer cable manufacturer, or claim that McIntosh makes donations to a certain US political party. Peace, Jan. But, yes, I remember, now; the newer LS3/5a speakers have terminals for biwiring..... (Takes cover behind panels). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5085 Registered: May-04 | "With ESL 63s as mains, I am sure LS3/5as would make perfectly adequate surrrounds.... ." My dear, sir, I shall have you know in that instance the 3/5a's would pull up their Tygan grill cloths and stomp politely out of the room. Might I suggest you reverse the direction of your subwoofer cable in an attempt to restore some clarity to your thoughts. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3638 Registered: Dec-03 | Well, "adequate" - yes, perhaps in a smallish room. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5088 Registered: May-04 | Is that "adequate" in reference to your own desires or your speakers' capabilities? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3639 Registered: Dec-03 | I was thinking of "adequate" for getting the precise sound of a circling Apache helicopter. Not that I have the reference with which to compare. Perhaps fortunately. Come out from behind that shoe box, man. You heard Innocenti tanks had a factory re-call, but it was a false alarm; they were designed like that? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5090 Registered: May-04 | Italians like 'em so much, they design 'em twice. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3642 Registered: Dec-03 | No, it was the gearboxes. |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cAtlanta, GA Post Number: 955 Registered: Mar-05 | You got a problem with my shoe boxes????!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3644 Registered: Dec-03 | OK, I'd better finish it. The tanks has one forward and five reverse gears. Take that, Vigne. joe, please, what's this thing you guys have about army boots....? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3645 Registered: Dec-03 | "had". Apologies. I learned to type on an Olivetti. |
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