Do you listen
Closed: New threads not accepted on this page| Thread | Last Poster | Posts | Last Post | |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Archive through August 29, 2005 | Dakulis | 100 | ||
| Archive through August 15, 2005 | John A. | 100 | ||
| Archive through August 03, 2005 | Dakulis | 100 | ||
| Archive through July 23, 2005 | Jan Vigne | 100 | ||
| Archive through July 19, 2005 | Jan Vigne | 100 | ||
| Archive through July 14, 2005 | Jan Vigne | 100 | ||
| Archive through July 10, 2005 | John A. | 100 | ||
| Archive through July 05, 2005 | bumblebee | 100 | ||
| Archive through June 29, 2005 | Walrus Man | 100 |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5376 Registered: May-04 | BYOB |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 454 Registered: May-05 | Hey Jan, I don't go anywhere without my own "Bs". |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3737 Registered: Dec-03 |  Holst and Elgar (Classical CD review). I have these. They are very good. About a tenner from HMV shop; £11 from Virg_n. |
|
Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1294 Registered: May-05 | John, I think that the same version I've ordered from "HMV" this Tuesday for £9.00 pounds, the artwork looks the same, though not sure if it did say there will be a dts six-track mix on it. So it will probably arrive late next week. Ashley |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3738 Registered: Dec-03 | Andy/Ashley, Returning to topic, recall our posts of August 22, above. Get the Elgar, and you are well placed to compare 5.1 with the real thing. For "The Planets" you would have to go to Glasgow. These two were among my first DVD-A discs. They do not have two-channel, alas, so I cannot use them to compare with CD, not just at the moment. I predict you will like the Holst disc. You may even be "blown away".... It also has the advatage of not ruining the fade-out wordless chorus of "Neptune" by overlaying the violin at beginning of "Pluto". |
|
Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Post Number: 1296 Registered: May-05 | John, Well I shall find out when "HMV" calls me to say that it's arrived, looking forward to feeling it with the power of Mars, The Bringer of War." And "Jupiter, The Bringer of Jollity. Ashley |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 462 Registered: May-05 | Mars and Jupiter are two of the better tracks on "The Planets." But, I must admit I enjoy incredible pacing in Mercury and it's somewhat of a fun piece. I GOTTA GET A NEW VERSION SOON!! |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3742 Registered: Dec-03 | "CD review" gave first place to the Atlanta Symphony, conducted by Yoel Levi (I think) on Teldec. I have not heard it, myself. The sound was the best, they said, and the interpretation, including the tempi, was closest to those on the two surviving recordings where Holst conducted it himself - only one of which, an ancient acoustic recording, is still available. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3743 Registered: Dec-03 | Not Teldec; Telarc. Sorry! Composer/Artist: HOLST, G. Title: The Planets Artist(s): Atlanta Symphony Orchestra Conductor: LEVI, Yoel Record No: TELARC CD 80466 (CD) Price Band: FULL PRICE Coupled With: Reviewer: BURTON-PAGE, Piers Review Date: 27 September 2003 |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 464 Registered: May-05 | John, Thanks, i'm going already. I'll see what i can find and I'll let you know what I hear. You are too kind, Dave. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 465 Registered: May-05 | BTW, Anyone looking at the Google adds for Glacier Nat'l Park, see me first. I've only been there about 20-25 times. Try buying a steak on the east side of the park, heading towards Alberta,CN and you'll find one of the best steaks you've ever had in your life BUT it's a little pricey by Montana standards. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 5851 Registered: May-04 | Before this thread gets archived, I'm wondering if it made anyone use any different language or think differently about what they hear now that you've been away from the thread for a few weeks. Are you still relying on "soundstage" and "imaging" when you discuss what you are hearing? |
|
Rantz Unregistered guest | I made the mistake of buying a SACD of music that I did not really know and I certainly used a different language when I listened to it. And no, "soundstage" and "imaging" were not even close to the words I chose. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 542 Registered: May-05 | Rantz, Jan and John A, Well, I thought I'd return and see what I missed. This is too comical. I went to BB and bought a new version of "The Planets", L.A. Philharmonic and Zeuben Mehta, conducting. Anyway, I came home and broke the dang CD case as I was opening it. So, I was looking for a blank or rarely used CD case and in an old CD case, voila, I found my old version of "The Planets." Way too cool. Then, it gets better, I continue looking and I find yet another version that my son bought when he was in England for two years. SO, now I have 3 versions. I've listened to them all and, actually, the L.A. Philharmonic version seems to be a better recording than the original but now I'm thinkin' I may have to check out the DVD-A version that you guys found. Where's the best place to order it and is it available in the States? If not, what's it going to cost to ship it? If it's not available here, I've got friends traveling in England right now. If I can get word to them, they could buy it, bring it back and I'd repay them. That would avoid the shipping issue. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 543 Registered: May-05 | OK, I'M STUPID!!! Hey, I clicked on John A's link and what do you know, there's a website in the U.S. of A. where you can order this DVD-A and everything, DUH!!!! Anyway, now ordered and I'll have version 4 in my hot little hands in about a week or so. John A, you're good. Thanks guys, Dave. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3772 Registered: Dec-03 | A pleasure, Dave. I think there are other DVD-A and SACD versions, but you seem to have enough to be going on with.... All the best. |
|
Silver Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 909 Registered: Sep-04 | Dak What do you think of the Mehta version in relation to the rest? I have it on record and I don't think it's up to much, but I haven't heard/read of another recording which is meant to be better. Depressingly, the Mehta is meant to be one of the better ones. It could be my pressing of course (nothing special) but I'm loathe to try the 180gm vinyl version given the cost. Actually, my system has changed significantly since last I played that record. Must try to remember to play it again just in case... Regards, Frank. |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 49 Registered: Aug-05 | Ok gentlemen Which version won? Margie |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 573 Registered: May-05 | Frank, John A and Margie, I've only listened to my original and the Mehta version thus far. The DVD-A version arrived on Monday and I've only had a few minutes to listen to it. So, here are my initial thoughts. THe original has a little warmer sound but probably is not as good a recording as the Mehta version. The Mehta version gives you a little more dynamic feel and more of a "you're really there" sound. So, for pure musical listening pleasure, I would prefer it but it doesn't have quite the emotional lift that I get from the original since it introduced me to "The Planets." I've only had a few minutes with the DVD-A so I cannot assess it just yet but it's interesting to have the music in real surround, it creates almost a surreal feel but can't say if it's better or not, musically, at this point. My son's version, I just found a couple of weeks ago, haven't listened to it, haven't even looked to see who conducted and performed. So, I need to take a look and listen there. So, the mystery remains for now as to "who won". Well, Margie, I'm sure you will remain on the edge of your seat, whether that seat is black leather covered or white feather covered, until the results are in, right? LOL John A and Frank, what are your thoughts about the original versus the DVD-A, thus far? Dave. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3783 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave and Margie, Sorry to be slow; I've been away. I am still trying to work out where to put additional speakers, so have not been able to compare the DVD-A with the "original" (I take this to mean Boult/LPO 1978 EMI stereo, but on CD...?). All I can report is that my daughter has loaded the complete "Great recordings of the century" CD (The Planets plus Elgar's Enigma Variations) on her iPod mini before going back to college. That's nice. I do not want to sound all high-minded, but there are no winners and losers in different recordings, really. They are just different. The Planets is a marvellous piece of music, for me. Get any one you happen to see. Then try another. There is a lot of interest in the different interpretations. There is no definitive recording, or performance. As I wrote, I think it must have been on another thread, the Atlanta Symphony with Yoel Levi won the CD Review recommendation, but by a whisker, and there are pros and cons. It has the nearest to Holst's own tempi, and is an outstanding preformance very well recorded, so they said. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6070 Registered: May-04 | They? |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3785 Registered: Dec-03 | "He", strictly speaking. Meaning a Mr Burton-Page, as mentioned on September 02, above. "They" stands for something such as "them folks at CD Review". |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1920 Registered: Feb-05 | I have several versions and my current favorite is the John Eliot Gardner with the Philharmonia. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 581 Registered: May-05 | Welcome back Art and to the rest of the crew, Delete my earlier reference that I had not heard my son's version. It turns out it's the 1978 Boult/LPO with a different CD case so I didn't recognize it, so I have heard it but just didn't know it. Anyway, listened to the DVD-A version with some interest over the weekend and well into the night. Tried it in 2 channel, 2.1 channel and 5.1. Definitely it is best in 5.1 and there were a couple of occasions in "Mercury" and "Jupiter" where I got goose bumps. WOW, very engaging, enjoyable listen. However, I still think the Mehta version may be a better recording slightly over the 1978 Boult recording but just barely. I could listen to any one of them all day, almost every day and be pretty happy. I would put the DVD-A on just to sit in the middle of all that incredible sound and be carried away. OK Art, poney up, I've done some research and I oculdn't find a version with Gardner conducting a Philharmonic. So, who, what, where, wheen and what label? I really need another version of this right now, LOL. So, Margie, pick one, anyone and come join the fun. |
|
New member Username: PlatoWoodbury, NJ Post Number: 5 Registered: Oct-05 | Hi guys. I'm new to this thread. I read some of the past messages and I was thinking about Jan's original question. I just listened to a pair or Martin Logan Ascent i speakers driven by a Rotel 1080 2x200 watts and Rotel RC1070 preamp. Being a classical musician and listener I have some experience about live performances. To me it's live when you hear the musicians breathe before they come in, when you feel that air movement just before they start playing caused by their bows getting close to the strings or by the bocals getting close to the mouths or by the conductor raising the baton. That's what I listen for in a speaker, the silence before the performance! And the Martin Logans were wonderful in unveiling it. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 1929 Registered: Feb-05 | The Philharmonia Orchestra, John Eliot Gardiner 1995 on DG 445 860-2. The Planets coupled with Percy Grainger's work "The Warriors". I also like the Dutoit, Orchestre symphonique de Montreal version from 1987 on Decca. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 587 Registered: May-05 | Max, Thanks for joining the fun. Fantastic visuals and I just had a friend leave who used almost identical language to describe the sound of his MacIntosh tube amp playing through some vintage Klipsch Heritage horns. He described the sounds of silence in between instruments playing as the orchestra catching its breathe and feeling that through the speakers. WOOHOO, my system isn't there, yet, but it's exciting to think about it. Art, OK, you're off the hook. Now, I know what I'm looking for. Let me see, will Mrs. Dakulis have a fit if I come home with another version of "The Planets"? Yes, that was rhetorical. BTW, it appears this thread is coming back to life and that our driver is asleep at the wheel. JAN, OH JAN, are you listening? LOL |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3788 Registered: Dec-03 | Max, Welcome! That's what I like, too. Yes, a good speaker, in conjunction with everything else, "unveils" things. That is definitely back to Jan's question, in my opinion. Dave, Art, Margie, The CD Review review had two recordings conducted by Holst himself. One was early and acoustic, I think from the 1920s, and is still available. The later, electrical, recording (1940s I think), had better sound, but is not currently available. The reviewer had the opinion that Levi/Atlanta Symphony were familiar with the Holst recordings. Trivia: there is a nice chunk of Venus in "Wallace and Gromit, Curse of the Were-Rabbit". Sunrise over the vegetable patch; very atmospheric. Thought you should know.... |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3789 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave, Posts crossed. Yes, Max, try a tube amp.....! Especially with Martin Logans or similar. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 589 Registered: May-05 | John A, It's funny how few people recognize the number of movie scores that have borrowed from "The Planets". As I was listening to Jupiter one evening, my daughter came in because she thought I was watching a movie, can't recall what it was - Apollo 13 or one of the apocalyptic meteor vs. earth movies - and she had no idea. I tried to get her to sit down and listen, then 18 years old, but not much interest I'm afraid. BTW John, take a look at my thread on Altec Lansings coming back to life and you'll see where I think I'm heading for 2 channel listening and I'm excited. I'll report more when I know more. Who's drivin' this thread anyway? We need some more direction as I don't believe that we've explored all there is to explore about "listening?" and I'm missing some of the dialogue re how we listen and what we listen for. Where's the man with the questions, Jan? |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 612 Registered: May-05 | OK, An an effort to bring order from chaos and bring this thread back to life because Jan abandoned us, I ask the following: What was your most enjoyable/memorable minute, hour or day in front of your equipment? Was it because the music was close to the real thing or was another an emotion, feeling, memory, or person that was the reason for it being so memorable? What were you listening to and do you still own it on disk or vinyl and how often do you still listen to it? Anything else you want to add, ask or interject? If no one answers, we can turn out the lights, the party's over. To quote another one of those Dallas Cowboys, Mr. Meredith, where are you? |
|
Anonymous | I'll show you mine if you show me yours. LOL |
|
Rantz Unregistered guest | "What was your most enjoyable/memorable minute, hour or day in front of your equipment?" or behind your equipment!  |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 56 Registered: Aug-05 | Red...Lace... |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6166 Registered: May-04 | I've had too many memorable moments where audio is concerned. (The first time I stuck my hand inside a tube amplifier before the power supply caps had been drained doesn't even count.) The one I've mentioned before is from the very first shop where I sold. The dealer was the highest volume Advent dealer in the West when the Original Advent was the best selling speaker in the US. The front of store display had a set of Double Advents set up with a Tandberg 2075 receiver which was a very good receiver for 1975. The Advent demo cassette was made with Dolby B processing to show off the Advent 201 cassette deck and among the selections was an excellent recording of Saint Saens Organ Symphony with a true 32Hz signal. On the wall alongside the display was a plaque from Tandberg for #1 sales in the US with a bronzed Cross Field head on the plaque. The recording was played through once with one pair of Advents in use (the top pair to have the least amount of room reinforcement). That was impressive as the Large Advents had very good deep bass response. The tape was rewound and the same selection was started again except when the low note hit, the second pair of Advents were switched in the circuit and the Tandberg receiever could produce about 190 watts into the four Ohm load. The mutual coupling of the drivers and the switch in impedance gave about an eight to nine dB boost to the 32Hz signal. It took about one second of this Double Advent system playing 32Hz before the Tandberg plaque literally jumped off the wall. The customers usually had their wallets out before the Tandberg plaque hit the floor. Other than that the times that I remember as epiphanous are the first time I heard tube amplifers driving Quad 57's and tube amplifiers driving double full Bozak Concert Grands. But neither of those instances were my system. The first Conrad Johnson PV-5 tube pre amp was a revelation and I did own that. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6167 Registered: May-04 | I'd have to add the first time I heard, and saw, the difference between an IMF Transmission line monitor and a Klipschorn reproducing the finale of the Firebird Suite on Telarc. The IMF had absolutely fabulous bass response which pegged the meters of the 300+ watt (about 500 peak) McIntosh power amp driving them. The Klipschorns produced bass that, while not nearly the quality or extension of the IMF's, rattled pantslegs at 12 feet away and used less than 20 watts. And, any time I hear a performance reproduced with three dimensional precision to the extent I think I can walk between the performers, that's a memorable experience. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 613 Registered: May-05 | Jan, great imagery, especially with the last post. Margie, thanks for the imagery BUT that's not what I had mind, BAD GIRL, BAD GIRL!! Well, I'll show you mine, anonymous. This goes back to about 1978. Picked up the Luxman tube amp and it sounded so much better than the cheap Pioneer/Kenwood/whatever I had. Then, a friend of mine from law school told me about the opportunity to pick up the Altecs for a song. No, there was no white van involved. I bought them, took them home and put on Carole King's "Tapestry" album, which I played probably to death. Listened to "I Heard the Earth Move" and it did. Just felt like Carole was in the room. Interestingly, I don't remember thinking about "soundstage", her "placement" on the stage or anything else I hear people talk about now with their systems. I just remember feeling the incredible emotion of the songs she sang on that album. Then, I put on a Mozart orchestral piece and the strings and horns just lifted me off my feet. There was no one else in the room, I closed my eyes, laid back and just was lost in the music. This experience repeated itself with more albums, "Hard Days Night", "In a Gadda Da Vida" and others and just could not believe my ears. Well, I haven't exactly repeated the experience since but I've come close. Interesting last post on the "Firebird Suite", Jan, I have been looking for a decent CD and this last weekend a doctor buddy recommended the Telarc recording. So, it's off to find that this week. Anyone else going to share? Margie, music this time, my dear. LOL |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 57 Registered: Aug-05 | My first "sound system" was a packaged deal of some off brand. I had been saving up for quite a while and finally had a couple of hundred bucks that I could spend on a stereo of my own. I bought three records: Paul Simon, Dylan, and Joni Mitchell. My fourth floor dorm room overlooked the tops of the palm trees and the freeway was just visible in the distance. I felt like I was in Heaven! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 614 Registered: May-05 | Margie, Palm trees and freeway, L.A., Santa Barbara, Santa Cruz or San Franisco area? Got to be L.A., I'm thinking - so U.S.C. (BOO), UCLA (YEAH, yep I'm a grad), CSUN (long distance if you're looking for a freeway), CSULA, Pepperdine? Fess Up. Jan, just borrowed the Telarc recording of Stravinsky's "Firebuite Suite" and I'll give a listen tonight and report. Should be fun. No one else with a story, I guess so lead us further, Jan, or we can write this thread off and move elsewhere, although I don't think we've scratched the surface of potential topics on this thread. Thanks all, Dave. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3792 Registered: Dec-03 | There are palm trees around UCB, too, especially on the north side. Palm and pine on the same campus. Amazing. Like the Empire in the East Bay I have a story, Dave; the question is how much does one want, or can one stand. The LPs were bought in Tower Records on Telegraph Ave. Which is how I know about the palms. Margie; those two posts were equally intriguing.... Margie not bad; Margie good. Judging from the named artists, the original attire was cotton and denim; just as interesting, imho. Brief post. "W and G" has not just Venus, but references to the full moon, and corresponding changes of personality. Wonder if Gromit is an Old Dog. Dave, I think it is "Firebird". |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6183 Registered: May-04 | "Firebuite Suite" is the abbreviated version of the Firebird Suite just as it is the abrreviated version of the Firebird Ballet. The "Firebuite" is only the really good parts of the others without all those annoying violins and oboes. John - Have you looked into the sky lately? |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3793 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan;- No. Scary. There must be something this full moon business. "Beware the beast within". BTW "Were-Rabbit" has a character named "PC McIntosh".... So many puns.  |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6189 Registered: May-04 | Just be careful what you say to who in the next few days, John. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 615 Registered: May-05 | OK guys, so I had a brain f@rt. Yes, it is Firebird, even if I could type and spell at the same time, it takes an awful lot of concentration AND it's Monday for heaven's sake. John A, you know you're right about UCB, although I managed to stay away from that campus. I spent a year and one-half at Univ. of Santa Clara but, primarily, dated girls at Stanford and San Jose State. The girls at UCB scared me at that poor, innocent time in my life, I'm afraid. LOL (Especially the ones in red lace.) Yes, it is a full moon, a good time to get out an howl or something. So, John, about a little sharing. |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 58 Registered: Aug-05 | Dave Carole King, what great memories. I was always fond of that LP, still am, of course it's a disk now. "In a Gadda Da Vida"...didn't that one require an altered state to fully appreciate? You asked for sharing. I meant to give you one big moment but I didn't give you enough info to explain it. My Father loved music and played it alot in my home growing up. He died suddenly when I was just starting High School. Less than a year later my only sibling, my brother was drafted (good old Viet Nam). Music was just too painful for my mother...so it stopped. My story was for me the rebirth of music. I had control of what I listened to and when I got to listen to it for the first time in years. Back about 800 posts or so we wrote about the magic being in the music not the equipment, that a crappy system could still let the magic through given the right circumstances. Well....in the hierarchy of stereo systems mine wasn't at the very bottom, you know totally sh'tty, no indeed, mine was a cut above, it was just crappy! Jan Back up this page a bit you asked if this long discussion had caused anyone to use language differently or to think differently about what we hear. My answer is yes. But before I elaborate... How 'bout a story, maybe...Why music?...Why not a Chef? John, John, John I want to hear one of your stories too. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6193 Registered: May-04 | A story about a chef? |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 60 Registered: Aug-05 | I'm curious, why did you choose to go into a music related field? You have other interest, you like fine food, you are well read. You had other options so why music? But if you have any stories about chefs you can throw them in too. sf |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3795 Registered: Dec-03 | Off to work. Will be back with a story. I enjoyed all those told so far. Thanks. No time right now. I shall also heed Jan's words. And wait for the moon to wane a little.... |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 621 Registered: May-05 | Margie, That's a sad story at the beginning but with a happy ending in a way. I've found that loss and struggles tend to define who we are and, more importantly, how we become who we are. I went off to college at Santa Clara and my dad was diagnosed with end stage lung cancer during the summer before my 2nd year. I went off to college but he died on Thanksgiving Day so I was there fortunately, and actually I was thankful in a way as pain medication was not part of the recommended treatment plan. (After all, you wouldn't want someone who is dying in incredible pain from cancer to become addicted to pain medications, right?) Well, we won't go down that road but my father's death lead me from my pre-med major to law, that's a whole 'nother story. So, that's how I ended up finishing up at UCLA and I feel your pain, just a little I suspect. As for "In a Gadda Da Vida", I'm not sure it was enjoyed in any state. It was more experienced and the experience varied depending upon your own state, normal to fully altered, I suspect. Jan, I'd love a story about a chef, especially a musical one. Maybe involving beans, OUCH that was really juvenile but I just had to throw it in to lighten up my previously dark mood. John, heck the best stories always involve full moons and music so be bold. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3796 Registered: Dec-03 | We are reaching the end of the first quarter, I think. Graphic courtesy of http://stardate.org/nightsky/moon/  I have started the story I was going to tell several times, but deleted it. Whether this has to do with the phase of the moon, too, I have no idea. More time, please! Someone else please contribute, while I try to get some perspective. It is strange how personal music is, and how much it indicates milestones, or points of reference, in one's life. It is a bit like hifi, in the sense that it is not easy to distinguish the details from the big picture. Sorry about this. I just thought I should post and say "thanks" again, and I will be back. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6291 Registered: May-04 | Is this not the "last" or third quarter when the moon is waning? The first quarter comes when the moon is waxing. http://www.angelfire.com/ny5/Gis/Cycles.html At least we know what sort of witch you would make, John. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6293 Registered: May-04 | Just in case some of you have some incense laying around and want to know when to burn what fragrance or when to slaughter the pig. http://www.mymagicshop.com/moon_cycles/moon_phases_home.htm And here you have it, it is offically a waning gibbous. (With a pre-dated calendar in case you need to plan your trip to Stonehenge.) http://www.monamagick.com/resources_moon.html |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3797 Registered: Dec-03 | Yes, Jan, it is certainly waning. So it is not in the first quarter. It must surely be in the third. I was counting quarters starting from "full" - not from "new". Ridiculous. Apologies. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6295 Registered: May-04 | Possibly some perturbed wiccan had cast a spell on you. Margie? What do you know of this affair? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6296 Registered: May-04 | I guess everyone has noticed that once we finally got Andy/Ashley to stop placing pictures into the thread to enable faster loading, the administration has begun loading video advertisements. |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 61 Registered: Aug-05 | Jan, I've been called a witch before but more often the spelling has been different. ....cast spells...a few... the moon may have been involved...even a cauldron from time to time... and music. My religious study, however, has been primarily Christian. Dave Thanks, I suspect you do too. John "It is strange how personal music is, and how much it indicates milestones, or points of reference, in ones life. ...it is not easy to distinguish the details from the big picture." Well said! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 636 Registered: May-05 | Margie, I can't believe that anyone would ever call you a "witch" no matter what the spelling. Well, maybe your kids during a mom encounter but those don't count. LOL Jan, welcome back. Now, how about a story, could include a chef or whatever, so long as it relates something about music and how it impacted you. John, WE'RE WAITING. Heck, what moon, it's now retired and we're entering the last days, here. LOL OK, I'll share another story for ya. Gordon Lightfoot concert, circa late 70s, early 80s. One of my wife and my favorite concerts. (We saw more than 5 less than 10 of his.) We're at the Universal Ampitheater in L.A., actually Studio City. At our wedding, we had planned on using the song, "Beautiful" from his "Don Quixote" album in our wedding. On the day of our wedding, the soloist shows up with laryngitis. I thought it was funny, wife to be did not think it was funny. Anyway, soloist talks her brother, her guitar acompanyiest into singing. OOOOHHHHH, BAD, not as bad as my voice, but not good. So, we're sitting at the concert and everyone is yelling at GL to sing something or other. Right at a point where he's getting a drink of water and it's fairly quiet, I yell out, "Sing "Beautiful for my wife, we used it in our wedding." He kinda looked our direction but didn't say anything. The concert went on and he didn't sing it. First curtain call, NOPE. 2nd curtain call, he sings "Beautiful" and sings part of it facing, generally, in our direction although I know he didn't know exactly where we were sitting. In all of his concerts we attended, it's the only time he sang that song. PRETTY DANG COOL!!! I can still get my wife to drop what she's doing and come into the room if I put that song on. As you know, she's not really into music listening. So, I'm excited to get the new 2 channel together and see if it sounds as good as I remember on decent components. NEXT story, please. |
|
Rantz Unregistered guest | Okay, Met Dire Straits back in the early eighties at a private after concert gathering (alright - drinking session) at their hotel - thanks to a friend who worked for a local radio station. Wife and I went with a few friends (great concert btw) and this was the first of three we attended in Brisbane over the years. Anyhow, Mark Knopfler plonked himself down on a chair beside me and we got to talking for a while. Next, in comes John Isley, hair combed, but ringing wet, and face red as a beetroot - it was summer and he looked exhausted after what was a great performance. So big mouth Rantz says to him, " Man, you look bug-gered!" He gives me this strange look and says, "I beg your pardon." I replied, "You look bug-gered - er - you know - really tired, exhausted." He grinned and said, "Phew, man that means something else where I come from." Everyone laughs and I'm red-faced. That episode virtually cured me from using that not-so-nice-term though I drop it ocassionally as it is used very freely here. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 640 Registered: May-05 | Rantz, funny story. That's what happens when you mix the Aussies and the English or the English and the Americans or the Aussies and the Americans. Who says we all speak the same langugage? Ever since my son came home from England, I tell him to keep his pants on (boxers or briefs in England as opposed to trousers), just to get a rise. LOL (I didn't know you couldn't say underwe@r on here.) |
|
Rantz Unregistered guest | Dak You say potatos - say we potatoes! This thing with your son going around with no pants - genetic maybe? LOL! Yeah, our language differences are a bit odd - you guys tend to spell words as they sound, the poms spells words using some strange old pagan code and we aussies - well, just as long as we can articulate our brand of beer. BTW - I must find a copy of GF's 'Beautiful' - see if has the same effect on my wife. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 645 Registered: May-05 | Get his Don Quixote album, I know it's on there and it's probably on one or more of his "Greatest Hits" album. It's probably one of his most simple arrangements and lyrics, but hey, it works for me, and even better on her. LOL |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 192 Registered: Dec-04 | I met Burton Cummings in Winnepeg, at the airport, and he was the most accommodating fellow I have ever met. The flight came to Toronto, and I went home. The next day, I was walking with my wife in downtown London. Rounding a corner, I litterally, physically ran into Burton Cummings! He was doing a show in London that night, and graciously offered tickets (maybe Karma?) We went to the show and were brought backstage for the event. Burton remembered that I sang (from the meeting in Winnipeg) and had me rattle off a few lines. Burton invited me to sing "these eyes" with him on Jan.16, 1995. I obliged. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 650 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, Great story, nobody has ever suggested that I sing anything, anywhere in public. Or, in private for that matter. I'm not tone deaf, just no voice to speak of. |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 194 Registered: Dec-04 | Dakulis, to sing is to live. The absolute joy of raising your voice in time with music is as timeless as dancing or music itself, I think.The quality of the singing may be questionable at times, but a good ol Elvis in the shower just can't be wrong! If sometimes people think they cant sing, perhaps the opportunity has never arisin to excel, or at least maximise their potential with the right song at the right time. An experience that lightens your heart, brightens your smile, or in my case, shows me a stage that I may never(may) see again. The joys of the song and the music will never fade, as new pleasures are released daily, while old favorites are as stalward as brothers. More like Moms, actually. The pleasures which we reap from this kinda nuts hobby we share are very much in common with the pleasures I derive from my own song. Music , and the componants producing, or reproducing it, have only one purpose. Stereo is made to produce only pleasure. There are very few things made in our lives that exist strictly for pleasure, and we share the interest and enjoyment of the finest example. Battery powered 'marital aids' may also fit, however sharing of that one is frowned upon, and illegal in 6 states. The pleasure of the sound is paramount, and sharing my story has put a smile back on my face. Thank-you. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 654 Registered: May-05 | Nuck, LOL on that last bit. But, it's not that I don't enjoy singing, I very much enjoy it. My family has suffered many a car trip with dad singing and them groaning and begging for a louder song or even silence. But, you're absolutely right that there is something for human beings about raising their voice in song that moves the soul and touches us in a way that few other things can. Geez, we're starting to sound like we may have to migrate back to the 60s. Well said, though. No, thank you!!! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 670 Registered: May-05 | OK, Shall we bury this thread, Jan? John A, we're waiting . . . Nuck, great story, made me smile, too. Margie, what happened to you ? No leather, no feather, no silk, no satin, no Margie? |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6574 Registered: May-04 | Margie's waiting for a story about lasagne and music. I haven't had time to do anything yet. This thread seems to be OK just sitting while it waits for another input. But most of what has been said, has been said. |
|
New member Username: RedsoxfanPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-05 | Has anyone listened to the New JBL Studio "L" series speakers? I emailed the company and stated that very few dealers have them. Any info would be greatly appreciated. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 673 Registered: May-05 | Tony, Your best bet is to start a new thread and ask this question, since I believe this thread has died. |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 345 Registered: Dec-04 | RIP 'Do you listen' And Eddie Guerrero. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3805 Registered: Dec-03 | Dave and other friends here, Another full moon has passed, and I have re-drafted the story I promised. I think I shall not post it, but perhaps send it as a private message. This thread is not yet dead. I think we may need to say the last rites for Old Dogs, though. Nuck, I agree about singing. Well said. |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 62 Registered: Aug-05 | Hi Guys I love the stories! Rantz...very funny! Nuck...good story and your comments as well. Dave...your comments too. I speak to groups and do have a presentable speaking voice. Singing is an other story. I sing in my car....when I'm alone...real loud even. Shame it doesn't sound as good as it feels. John...I've been waiting for this story will I get to read it too? Margie |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 678 Registered: May-05 | John A, We're all friends here. Post away, although I'd take it my PM if you can get my dang PM to work. Although, if it's funny, we'll laugh with you, if it's sad we'll cry with you and it's somewhere in between, we'll probably get it published and you can quit working after we negotiate you the book and screen rights. LOL Although you better talk with me first, if those crazy Americans from Hollyweird get hold of it, they will just screw up the story and dumb it down so badly that it won't have any potential meaning. LOL OK, so maybe we won't bury this thread just, yet. We've still got to hear about Jan's story about lasagne and music and consider whether we should let Rantz post an audio file so we can hear him sing. (The only audio file you get from me is one from MI where it blows up at the end.) |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 695 Registered: May-05 | HAPPY THANKSGIVING ALL!!!! Enjoy and don't eat too much, like you could avoid it if you tried. LOL |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 13 Registered: Nov-05 | You really do not want to hear me sing Dave. So this is a time when I can tell you all you guys over there to get well and truly stuffed? Enjoy. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2301 Registered: Feb-05 | Happy Thanksgiving Dave and everyone else! The bird was mighty good. Time for the apple pie....yummy! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 696 Registered: May-05 | Art, MR and others, Turkey was fantastic, the company was better and dessert was great. Hope you all enjoyed some tunes while eating. I did a little but the wife and kids wanted to talk so I complied. Yes, I'm that easy, sometimes. I'm looking forward to getting home, finding the new 2 channel system finally done and putting it together. Also, I finally resolved the issue on the amp so it's going into service next weekend in the HT system and that should really wake up the Ascends. I'll report on that in a speaker or amp thread if it's successful as I hope. I've been impressed with the musicality (? - is that a word?) of the Adcom amps I've heard so I'm hoping that it translates not just to slight improvement in HT but major improvement in DVD-A and SACDs. |
|
Bronze Member Username: MargieNapa, California Post Number: 65 Registered: Aug-05 | Hope everyones Thanksgiving was full-filling, grin, in both body and soul. I spent the day in bed with the flu. OK now. Art....apple...pumpkin, apple...pumpkin..both! Rantz One of a very few times I've been told to "get stuffed" and liked it. Dave...waiting to hear about your new,..ugh..gear? |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 701 Registered: May-05 | Margie, Me, too. I will report as soon as there is something to report. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3809 Registered: Dec-03 | Good wishes for US Thanksgiving, everyone. Dave: "I've been impressed with the musicality (? - is that a word?) of the Adcom amps". I don't think you had joined us at the time, but the question of whether audio equipment can be "musical" has been raised before. And on this very thread. There were some contrasting views, if I remember. Best wishes to all. Glad you're over the flu safely, Margie. Best wishes, MR. Same to you, Art. I heard an interview today with the new MD and head producer of Chandos Records, called Ralph Cousens. He seemed like very enlightened guy. He mentioned their Bax recordings and other things we have discussed. He said SACD was Ok, and they have produced some, but its sole purpose was surround sound; it had nothing over CD for two-channel, which was enough for most music. Argh. Back to square one. Guess I'll get a better CD player. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 19 Registered: Nov-05 | Ditto Margie Ditto John - Mr Cousens opinion is one man's however in many cases he may well be correct. I don't know how they produced their SACD's but a good pure DSD SACD stereo or otherwise, imho, is hard to beat. Chuck Ainley, who had mixed some of Knopfler's/Dire Straits recordings for hi-res multi-channel and some others believe DVD-A is a better more accurate format. http://www.highfidelityreview.com/features/brothers_in_arms_01.asp People do differ - otherwise you'd all have the same gear as me. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6721 Registered: May-04 | Heaven forbid! Not a tube in sight! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 703 Registered: May-05 | John A, Ya caught me. I was here and I believe I weighed in with the whole psycho babble, "you are what you hear theory" or relational audio as I like to call it. Your likes, dislikes, musicality? is not necessarily mine, as they say. Whoever "they" are? So, I guess I can't have it both ways, huh? LOL Actually, I can since it's another day and another thought. I've matured in my musical assessment in the last few months so I can have it any way I can afford it, I guess, which ain't very much at this point. Cheers to all not enjoying the long weekend in the UK and down under. Dave. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3810 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, guys, and Thanksgiving good wishes to you, too, Jan. MyRantz, that is an interesting link, and thanks for that, too. The next page has the interview about recording and sound formats. It would be great to read some other opinions on approaches to sound recording. I wonder how much agreement there would be between Chuck Ainlay and Brian and Ralph Couzens (this is the correst spelling - apologies for "Cousens") of Chandos. It seems to me these people are aiming for entirely different things. Ainlay is quoted as saying: "Many well-meaning observers simply don't understand what it takes to make a record such as this. For a start, the output from the microphones -- depending on where they are placed -- invariably doesn't sound like the source or the instrument. In many cases there is ambience which needs to be dealt with, such as when mic-ing a drum kit, where the microphone is unnaturally close to it. In such a situation, what that microphone hears is not what you would hear in the room." I think that is the same mistake as "musical speakers". The output from the microphone does not "sound" like anything. It is electrical. "...what the microphone hears"... Well, let it go as a figure of speech. But then it simply boils down to the microphone being in the wrong place, it seems to me. I am a simple minded guy. I thought microphones were intended to capture sound. If the microphone is unnaturally close to the drum kit, why not just move it to a natural distance? The report continues, about Ainlay: Furthermore, he stresses that recording and mixing is an 'art' which is all about allowing a sound which is actually quite loud to still sound good at a lower volumes. As for the dreaded 'EQ', what he also points out is when one sound has the same tonal spectrum as another, it would tend to mask that other sound. For example, if one would put these two full range sounds up against each other, one might well cancel-out the other. "I therefore need to use EQ to 'carve-out' a place for an instrument to 'live' in. I believe that the only way you could even conceive of doing an album without any EQ or compression is if you just put up a pair of stereo mics in the hall and leave it at that. But making a pop album -- where you have to make it exciting to hear, with many discrete sounds from several speakers -- is a wholly different creative process which takes many years to learn how to do. Moreover, compression and EQ are an essential part of that." Well... This is part of the problem, it seems to me. So, a pop album needs people like Ainlay, with his skills, to make it "exciting to hear"....? And other genres....are they exciting without being tarted up, or is it OK if jazz or classical albums, say, end up "boring to hear....?" Then, Ainlay's opinion on remastering BIA for surround: "It is worth noting that listeners generally become pretty used to the speakers in the rear, and in terms of our human auditory perception, they start 'going away' -- unless there is activity which moves around, such as percussive hits," observes Ainlay. "This is illustrated when you take a synth pad and place it in a rear speaker, and pretty soon you just don't hear it in the rear anymore. This phenomenon occurs in real life where we are just so used to hearing things in front of us and turning our head to find out where that sound is coming from, so your mind just tends to start ignoring sounds that are continuous from the rear. So what I have accomplished, hopefully, makes for a lot of entertaining movement." It seems to me this guy gets quickly bored by music. He thinks eveyone else does, too. His mission is to provide an entertaining diversion. Ah, well. I raise the old questions yet again. I guess we've been there, done that. Cheers. John (Old Dog). |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 20 Registered: Nov-05 | Yes John thanks, I read the next page also. While i'm not experienced in such matters of mike placement etc, etc, I will give Ainly his due for an excellent result with the Strait's BIA (of which I have the SACD) and Knopfler's Shrangrila (DVD-A) while the latter is not making as much use of the surrounds as BIA, it is however an excellent example of the resolution of this format. I'll just add that I am enjoying our redbook cd's tremendously with the C162/C272. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6737 Registered: May-04 | "It seems to me this guy gets quickly bored by music. He thinks eveyone else does, too. His mission is to provide an entertaining diversion." What comes to mind is, "Location, location, location!!!!!" Unfortunately it is true; most people do get bored easily when they have nothing of value to interest them. My opinion would be this guy's never been to a concert. Of course he probably has been, but he apparently can convince himself of truths he wishes to belief. Not that different from most people in that regard. While the Dire Straits crowd (several years ago)was a bit more rowdy (they were standing up from the first song until the end of the concert) than the group at the chamber music performance yesterday (quite dull and very "walk outable"), my experience at concerts is people generally look at what is happening on stage and only turn their heads when startled from behind. This, of course, goes back to my old comments about "doors slamming" on surround formats to keep me interested and convinced I was listening to surround sound. "I think that is the same mistake as "musical speakers". The output from the microphone does not "sound" like anything. It is electrical." I don't think the two are at all the same issue. Here, John, you are being quite literal again when reading a figurative passage. The phrase "output from the microphones ... invariably doesn't sound" is as much a figure of speech as what the microphone "hears". "But then it simply boils down to the microphone being in the wrong place, it seems to me. I am a simple minded guy. I thought microphones were intended to capture sound. If the microphone is unnaturally close to the drum kit, why not just move it to a natural distance?" The answer to your question is literally in the quotation. "In many cases there is ambience which needs to be dealt with ... In such a situation, what that microphone hears is not what you would hear in the room." John, I thought you were a bit more savvy regarding recording techniques. How is the engineer supposed to get what the audience in the room would hear when there is no room to hear it from? This is an engineer who obviously believes a half dozen or more microphones on a drum set is the approriate way to capture the sound he wants. This is not about realism. This is about sales and money. You seriously do not expect a "pop" recording to be made with the techniques of recording a string quartet; do you? |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 508 Registered: Dec-04 | The mic's are set up unnaturally close to the drums to retrieve the snap of the snare, as well as the raspy scrape of a stick or brush across the rough surface of the snare skin. As well, the springs underneath do not transfer sound well through the body to the head, and a seperate mic right at the lower springs is also used, at times. The immediacy of the drum strike is almost always recorded at startlingly high levels, and them biased down to a mix to retain the sound you might hear in front of my drum kit. Although better, I hope. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6742 Registered: May-04 | Not only in front of your kit but sometimes inside your kit. Modern recording techniques for drums (and most other instruments which get plugged directly into the mixing board) have not been created to obtain a "natural" sound. I take Mr. Ainlay's reference to "well-meaning observers" to be a fairly direct swat at "audiophiles" who would prefer the simple set up of two or three microphones as opposed to the "artistic" control he wishes. "Moreover, compression and EQ are an essential part of that." |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3814 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, all. As we have agreed before, there is no "right" and "wrong" in this. "I believe that the only way you could even conceive of doing an album without any EQ or compression is if you just put up a pair of stereo mics in the hall and leave it at that." I'd buy that one, personally. Even a pair of mono mics. If I listen to Dire Straights, I want to hear Dire Straights, not Chuck Ainlay. To me, it seems ridiculous to put a microphone right next to the drum kit, or anything else, unless you want to record the sound someone would hear if that is where he/she was located. That would be a strange place to choose to sit, or stand. But, again, it's a free world. Ainlay starts with problems of balance that don't need to be there. He is just trying to get in on the act. " This is not about realism. This is about sales and money." OK. Are they different? If so, what is it that people want from recordings, when they buy them? "You seriously do not expect a "pop" recording to be made with the techniques of recording a string quartet; do you?" I really do not see why not. It's all sound. Good sound recording would work just as well for the sounds of a car engine or an espresso machine. I do not want someone telling me the most interesting parts are the tappets or the lever opening the flow of steam, and these therefore need their own spot microphones, plus his artistic control over how much from those "mics" goes into the final mix. I just want an faithful reproduction original sound. Why is this so controversial.....?! |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 509 Registered: Dec-04 | Jan, do you want to listen to Woodstock Live via 2 mono mics placed behind the outhouse? Or do you you want to hear a recording of how it sounded at the stage? With numerous amps and channels combined to deliver the band. Of course Woodstock is not for everyone, that is the example I picked. Last cd I would ever buy, titled'sounds like it did from my cheap seats' |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 21 Registered: Nov-05 | "Why is this so controversial.....?!" John, because you're making it so. [grin] I think recording a pop album is totally different to recording an album with a string quartet. One can go to a concert hall and listen to a string quartet without anyone fiddling with slide controls on a mixing/level console. I have not been to a rock (electronic) concert whether it be in an auditorium, open arena or a pub where there is no techie controlling the sound that the audience hears. Hence, in my view, I would think the same (or similar applications) needs to apply to the studio recording. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6745 Registered: May-04 | Rantz - You only need listen to some of the early rock or jazz recordings (try Elvis, Johnny Cash or Bill Evans), or even earlier big band groups (Frank Sinatra and Tommy Dorsey or Count Basie), to hear that your supposition may not be correct. Sticking to stereo recordings, the very simple techniques of studio recording with no more than three channels of inputs on a very crude "mixer" meant there were no spot mics. The drums were recorded as they sat in the studio with the piano, bass and guitar. Playing back these recordings gives an impression of a vocalist standing with the backing band in as natural a venue as a "studio session" could enable. Of course, this technique meant that whenever any one member made a mistake the entire recording of that song had to be re-started from the beginning. Money, and supposed "artistic expression" changed how the studios made recordings very quickly once stereo came along. Nuck - As whacked out as most of the particpants of Woodstock happened to be (what was it? don't eat the yellow acid?), I have a difficult time imagining the mics would have been placed behind the Port-a-Potty's. Given the recording quality that emerged from that concert though, I can't imagine that three mics hung above the stage would have done any worse in the hands of a skilled engineer. Of course, by that time, that just was not accepted practice in recording a rock group. Too bad. I'm with John on this one. I would much prefer the engineers get out of the way. That hardly ever happens though. And no Dire Straits album could ever be made to sound the way they do without a heavy hand from an engineer. |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 511 Registered: Dec-04 | Indeed, agreed, and no zztop or Van Halen or american Idol as well. Music for the masses, who listen with their @sses. However, technology does not stop, and sound now is better in most cases than ever before, Aerosmith never intended to be Holly Cole, and the producer knows it. If a small club sound is the object of your affections, so be it. However stadium and live recordings are the whim of the producer, and if 55 mics are required to achieve the product to mix, so be it. AC/DC live on the SARS stock dvd sound deceivingly like the live show in Toronto. Very good. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 22 Registered: Nov-05 | "You only need listen to some of the early rock or jazz recordings (try Elvis, Johnny Cash or Bill Evans), or even earlier big band groups (Frank Sinatra and Tommy Dorsey or Count Basie), to hear that your supposition may not be correct. Sticking to stereo recordings, the very simple techniques of studio recording with no more than three channels of inputs on a very crude "mixer" meant there were no spot mics." Agreed - but that was then and this is now. Back then they used little more than their instruments (ie no sound fx tools, synthesizers etc). And as good as a lot of it was back then, the music in some of those recordings was a bit lifeless imo. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6752 Registered: May-04 | Well they didn't have Mr. Ainlay to add compression and EQ for a really entertaining product. They did the best they could however. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 24 Registered: Nov-05 | :-) |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3815 Registered: Dec-03 | I have just noticed that my e-mail notifications take days to arrive (the last I received was the post from Art, Thursday, November 24, 2005 - 05:52 pm). I was accustomed to rely on e-mails. So, please excuse me for being slow. I was going to reply to My Rantz in much the same way that Jan did. The Beatles, for example, could, and did, perform most of their numbers up to about Sgt. Pepper, in 1967, I think. The producer was George Martin, and he just got them to perform in a studio, instead of on stage. Martin became part of the act because he was also their arranger, and played piano and anything else that was required to fill in. Then they all got together to make that album, with no pretence that it had ever been a live performance. Except that it is the first "concept album" (correct...?) and is through-composed to create the feeling there is a show going on. A surreal show, for sure. So we are back to "Do you listen". If there never was, or could be, a live performance, it becomes difficult to make the comparison of recorded with live. But one can still argue that the recording has to sound like something, not just like a recording. Also, the question of genre does not really come into in, as far as I can see. There are string quartet recordings with more microphones than players. I once saw a TV program on Bernstein recording "West Side Story" in a studio, for Deutches Gramophon (never can spell that). Each player in the orchestra had a microphone, and was wearing headphones. I don't recall whether the singers were wearing headphones, but they certainly had a microphone each. Bernstein was conducting, wearing headphones. I imagine this gives the producer maximum "artistic control". You can see similar set-ups for recording movie sound tracks. Again, there is not "right" and "wrong" way - it is just a question of what people prefer. Where I don't subscribe to "anything goes" is with Mr Ainlay. A moment's thought is all that is required. For example "when one sound has the same tonal spectrum as another, it would tend to mask that other sound. For example, if one would put these two full range sounds up against each other, one might well cancel-out the other" OK.....Perhaps. ("Tonal spectrum"...?). But it still makes no sense:- if the "full range sounds" cancel each other out, then that is what you hear. Simple as that. So why is he trying to capture things you can't hear? What is he trying to achieve, actually....? There are other examples in those quotes. Yours, puzzled. |
|
Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 2327 Registered: Feb-05 | Firts concept album - The Beach Boys "Pet Sounds" "Recorded and released in 1966, not long after the sunny, textural experiments of "California Girls", "Pet Sounds", aside from its importance as Brian Wilson's evolutionary compositional master piece, was the first rock record that can be considered a "concept album"; from first cut to last we were treated to an intense, linear personal vision of the vagaries of a love affair and the painful, introverted anxieties that are the wrenching precipitates of the unstable chemistry of any love relationship. This trenchant cycle of love songs has the emotional impact of a shatteringly evocative novel, and by God if this little record didn't change only the course of popular music, but the course of a few lives in the bargain. It sure as hell changed its creator, Brian, who by 1966 had been cruising along at the forefront of American popular music for four years, doling out a constant river of hit songs and producing that tough yet mellifluouis sound that was the only intelligent innovation in pop music between Chuck Berry and the Beatles" Rolling Stone |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 25 Registered: Nov-05 | "So why is he trying to capture things you can't hear?" John, where does it state he is doing that? Not here: "when one sound has the same tonal spectrum as another, it would tend to mask that other sound. For example, if one would put these two full range sounds up against each other, one might well cancel-out the other" He does say "if" does he not? I don't know if Mr Ainley is smoking something or not, but maybe, just maybe his forte is mixing sound and not articulation. He obviously knows what he's doing judging by the results - whether or not that music is your cup of Twinings or not, but perhaps we should be criticizing Mr Claptons record engineers/mixers because his last effort really was quite a noisy mess. Unforunately I don't have the recording/mixing experience that you guys seem to have so there's not too much I can say in defence of Mr Ainlay, but at least Mr Knopfler seems to believe he does more than a half decent job - time and time again. And of course, guys like him are only in it for the money - and the music be damned. Well, there's nothing wrong with making money as far as I'm concerned, but I can't say these guys do it to the detriment of the music though you may beg to differ |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3816 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Art! Excellent. I stand corrected. My Rantz. Thanks, too. Obviously Mr Ainlay is a producer of commercially successful recordings. But I think he is inventing reasons for doing it that way; he seems to justify his approach as putting right things that don't have to be wrong in the first place. Such as microphone positioning. Now he is let loose with surround sound, he has a whole new box of tricks at his disposal. I just don't see what they have to do with music. The "excitement" we want is in there, or it ain't. If it's there, his job is to let it out, it seems to me. I am not claiming any special expertise. I just like arguments to make sense, so I can understand what is being said. Yes, perhaps Ainlay does a good job without being able to explain how and why. That's OK. It's still interesting to know what he thinks he is doing, and see if other producers and engineers have other ideas, and ways of recording. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 26 Registered: Nov-05 | "The "excitement" we want is in there, or it ain't. If it's there, his job is to let it out, it seems to me." John, I believe that is precisely what he has done with the surround mixes. Seems like he knows his stuff maybe he just can't explain it: http://chuckainlay.com/bio.php Cheers |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3817 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, My Rantz! Yes, an impressive bio. He knows what he is doing, obviously. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3818 Registered: Dec-03 | Especially the link to the AES The Challenges Ahead. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6756 Registered: May-04 | He obviously knows his stuff and I'm sure, to anyone familiar with how he goes about his work, he makes perfect sense. The problem here is ... "Many well-meaning observers simply don't understand ... " We are looking at the process as if we had found a recipe for roasted duck which begins with, "Go find a duck's egg." As to "tonal Spectrum", while his language may appear clumsy, he has essentially described M-Peg compression. In the M-Peg format signals which are masked by louder or similar signals are dropped from the recording in order to make room for more of what the theorists contend we actually hear in a live performance. We are unhappy with M-PEG compression because it leaves out what we say we want (whether we can hear it or not). Are we now going to be unhappy with Mr. Ainlay for "carving out" a spot for that signal to actually be heard? John - Somehow I knew DG would come up in any discussion of over mic'd recordings. |
|
Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3820 Registered: Dec-03 | I did not understand that CA was talking abvout MPEG compression. I don't mind MPEG leaving out things I can't hear. The problem with MPEG 3, at least, is that it leaves out things I can hear. DG and microphones is a knee-jerk reflex, I suppose. Actually, I have that "West Side Story" CD and it is not bad. I looked for a graphic and found Leonard Bernstein Conducts West Side Story (1985) which must be what I saw, and remember. By the way, the 5.1 version of the 1957 "West Side Story" is very good, imho. I don't recall who mixed and edited it. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 28 Registered: Nov-05 | " . . . He knows what he is doing, obviously." Now that I know Chucky does a lot of his work in the country music genre, I'm not so sure anymore. |
|
Silver Member Username: NuckParkhill, Ontario Canada Post Number: 521 Registered: Dec-04 | Just wondering, If Mr. Ainsley sucessfully captures the sounds yor can't hear, would you hear them. I mean really sucessfully. In an empty forest type of thing. Oh man, I may not sleep tonight, now. |
|
Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 6764 Registered: May-04 | "If Mr. Ainsley sucessfully captures the sounds yor can't hear, would you hear them." Well, yes, I think that's his point - he "carves out" a spot for them so you are never without a virtual door slamming behind you or an instrument you normally wouldn't hear that you now are aware is present. His forest is never without something falling and there is always someone to hear what he has sent crashing to the ground. I've not heard the 5.1 version of Brothers in Arms so I can't comment on how successful I consider his work. I get the feeling Rantz might find the surround effects the essence of why he owns more than two speakers. On the other hand, not being a fan of gratuitous effects to justify additonal channels, I might find the constant exercise of someone wanting me to turn my head because of the noises behind me to be quite bothersome. I don't think Mr. A was describing exactly M-PEG compression when he described the recording technique he employs. But, that would appear to be what he is thinking about as he tries to retrieve the sounds masked by those of a similar "tonal spectrum". (And certainly M-PEG deals more with level masking more so than "tonal spectrum" masking.) He does sound as though he wants to create a carnival of sounds that have no reality base but are none the less overwhelmingly entertaining. Obviously he has been very successful with his approach. It would be interesting to know what he could do with only three microphones. His approach is a bit like building a cost no object amplifier. You really should be able to produce a decent sounding $20k amp. It is when you have to manufacture an outstanding $700 amplifier that you are tested. Or, so I've heard. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 33 Registered: Nov-05 | Regardless of the Mr A article, it seems to me that he keeps himself under control when it comes to surround mixing. BIA definately lends itself to much use of the rear speakers (the head turning comment is really just fluff) and Mr A, imo, did an excellent job. With Shrangrila, the sound eminating from the rears is much more subtle and this suits the music on this album. To me, it shows that Mr A, is not a surround for surrounds sake engineer, but someone who seems to have an idea of what is expected of him. I certainly like stereo (more so now with the new NAD gear) and I love hi-res surround. Even when there is a lot going on in the rear speakers I am yet to suffer from whiplash. Some people like to hear music as if they are sitting in the audience in a hall and some like to hear it as if they are situated with the musicians. I put no one down for their preferences. Surround sound is natural - it's what we live with every day. It's not the "effects" in surround that do it for me, it's the overall dynamics of being enclosed within the music. Effects are for movies and my rear speakers of course serve both purposes. |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 720 Registered: May-05 | John A and My Rantz, Tell em about the DVD-Audio of "The Planets." Now, that's 5.1 worth having although I haven't tried it yet with the new Arcam in the mix so see if it punches out some of the horns and background that was a bit understated with just the Denon doing the work. We'll see. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 37 Registered: Nov-05 | Dave, I've got no idea where you read that I have the 'Planets" DVD-A, but I may order it someday soon. Which version do you recommend? I am using the Nad power amp to drive my front mains for surround (saves switching speaker wires) and find an improvement while allowing the Marantz to take it a bit easier. LOL! |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 721 Registered: May-05 | My Rantz, I don't know MR, I thought you indicated somewhere in the above posts you had it. I know John A does and I thought you were the other person. I ordered it off Arkiv Music. Here's the link and it was the top item on this page. It's a reasonably good recording and very cool in 5 channel, although I do believe the 2 channel L.A. Symphony recording is better quality. Enjoy. http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/Namedrill?album_group=6&name_id=5516&name_ro le=1 Now, on the new equipment, I saw your post in "Amps" and posted briefly. I'm looking forward to your follow-up posts on what you're hearing and how you like it. As I indicated, I just put an Arcam 7607, 7 channel, 125 wpc into my HT system and it has changed what I'm hearing and how I hear it in an interesting way, although it's somewhat hard to explain and quantify as my lovely wife will tell you. Her comment, "do you hear a $____ inmprovement in the sound, I don't!" LOL |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 722 Registered: May-05 | Earlier on this page of the thread, Jan wrote: "Before this thread gets archived, I'm wondering if it made anyone use any different language or think differently about what they hear now that you've been away from the thread for a few weeks. Are you still relying on "soundstage" and "imaging" when you discuss what you are hearing?" I am trying to put into words what I'm hearing with the Arcam in my system and I'm just not getting there. I may need to play back through the Denon and then back to the Arcam, although that's about an hour take down, set up and take down, which leads me to believe my synapses won't remember the point of the exercise, anyway. But, I am not using "soundstage" or "imaging" as the words to describe what I'm hearing but I'm having an awfully difficult time finding the right words and that's a real pickle, given what I'm supposed to do for a living. LOL |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 42 Registered: Nov-05 | Dave, I have had the same problem in not using those terms when describing my system. However, a man in your position could try this: "All evidence points to the fact that the said Arcam receiver justifies the amount spent. The music reproduction was, your Honor, a very credible portrayal of instuments used in music genres such as jazz, rock and classical. The prosecution will have us believe that terms such as "imaging" and "soundstage" etc should not be used to describe the listening experience, however, if such terminologly is unacceptable in this court, then how can the jury possibly bring down a fair verdict when such terminology has been used by many an audiophile since the dawn of musical reproduction equipment. Unless your Honor suggests that we take the jury to a live performance at a venue where I may set up my audio kit for comparitive testing, I suggest the use of such terminolgy be allowed in this courtroom." |
|
Silver Member Username: DakulisSpokane, Washington United States Post Number: 725 Registered: May-05 | My Rantz, As usual, you've put it better than I ever could and you've got me ROTFL WMCOMN. You may not recognize the second part of that expression although I am in the midst of deciding whether to copyright it. It stands for "With Milk Cominn Out My Nose," which is a much more expressive form of laughter than just ROTFL. You may use it at your discretion of course. |
|
Bronze Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 49 Registered: Nov-05 | Dave "WMCOMN" LMHO |
Main Forums
Today's Posts- Home Audio Forum
- A/V Receivers Forum
- Amps Forum
- Cassette Forum
- CD Players Forum
- CD Recorders Forum
- DAC & Transports Forum
- DVD-Audio & SACD Forum
- Equalizers Forum
- Integrated Amps Forum
- iPod Docks Forum
- MiniDisc Forum
- Mini Systems Forum
- Digital Music Systems Forum
- Phono Forum
- Preamps Forum
- Speakers Forum
- Subwoofers Forum
- Tuners Forum
- Home Video Forum
- Home Theater Forum
- Car Audio Forum
- Accessories Forum
- All Forum Topics