CableCards TW and Pioneer 1140HD voodoo
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 1 Registered: Dec-06 | Has anyone had CableCard problems with a Pioneer 1140HD? I'm new to the forum, looks like plenty of good info here. Found the forum while searching for info to solve this cablecard install issue. So here's my little story: I purchased a Pioneer Elite 1140HD back in September along with a Tivo series 3. After two visits by Time Warner techs the two cards in the Tivo were working fine and the card in the panel's tuner appreaed to be working. Most of my viewing is done via the Tivo box so I was not paying too much attention to the CC in the panel. I wanted the card in the panel active in case the Tivo box screwed up. As it turns out the CC in the Pioneer was authorized but the EMM and ECM never went up. It was passing digital stations but no premium channels. The TV Guide function seemed to work ok. Then, when TW went through the channel rebuild here in Los Angeles in October the TV Guide Info did not match the new channel lineup. On December 1st suddenly the Tivo CCs dropped all digitial channels. CSAs had no idea, just went through the basic "reseat and reboot" proceedure. Then mysteriously all channels reappeared 5 days later. During the outage the CC in the Pioneer was still showing digital channels but still did not have the proper lineup info coming to TV Guide. Confused? I was. I scheduled a service call that ended up being pointless. I don't blame the TW techs, but they are not well trained and the people that DO have the knowledge are too few, the one's that have it seem to be inaccessable. The kid that came to my house was on hold to dispatch when he arrived. We both wasted time waiting for him to get through to someone at the office. Two hours later, he had swapped out the card in the tuner, got it authorized, and I was still at square one. He had no clue as to the meaning of EMM or ECMs. He did have a supervisor call me back who kindly scheduled one of his best guys to visit. In the meantime, due to other issues with the Series 3 box (analog drop out and a tuner freeze) Tivo did a swap and sent a new box. The working cards went in to the new Series 3, all that had to be done was to change the Host ID at the TW end. That simple step was a problem. No one at dispatch knew how to change Host IDs. So, my tech tried to talk someone through how to do it on the phone. Sadly, the process failed. Back to that in a moment. The tech swapped out the card in the Pioneer, it authorized, he sent some Hits, none of which showed up on the card. So now I'm on the third card in the Pioneer, but still not seeing premium tier. It looks great right up to 412 but nothing beyond that. My knowlegable (and btw determined and helpful) tech went back to the office in Chatsworth to get on the computer himself and phoned me back. He had no problem changing the host IDs for the Tivo, those cards work fine. But he was stymied by the cablecard in the Pioneer 1140HD. The tech suggested a problem with the tv, and to check out if there is a software update. I have a call in to the shop I purchased from who is passing the question on to Pioneer rep on Monday. I did find a firmware upgrade which I installed today. I think that software just runs the media gallery though. After the upgrade I called tech support, the CSA was helpful (in Ontario, Canada) and sent a hit to the card in the Pioneer. Still no EMM. Here's the diagnostic I see: Auth status: CP Auth Received Prog#:2 CCI byte 0x00 ECM: 0 EMM: 0 Decryption Status: OK Powerkey Status : Not Ready - Waiting for EMMs EID: 0xffffffff MKS: 100 seconds KSE count: 0 Again, the Tivo Series 3 tuners work fine. There is a powered amp that TW provided which splits the signal. Is it possible that it could filter EMMs? Sounds unlikely to me and I haven't tried swapping outputs of the amp yet. I'm afraid to change anything that might upset the working cards in the Series 3! Any ideas out there? I'm happy with TW now that I have a pipeline to a supervisor who can pass my info to a knowledgable tech who has seen my setup. I know cableguy is a TW employee and I've read his posts in other threads carefully. Maybe he has some insight? Now, we just need to figure out what variable to examine next. Hope someone knows the right CC voodoo! Thanks! |
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Silver Member Username: CableguySomewhere on... U.S. Post Number: 892 Registered: Mar-05 | Have them check the balancing for all of your cable card equipment. The fact that your EMM count is at zero would indicate they didn't provision it properly. You will not get any ECM's until you have received the proper number of EMM's. Now, you guide data being wrong isn't TWC's fault, the data that dictates channel information is usually provided by Gemstar, and it would appear they aren't aware a channel change has been made yet. I do belive you have the option to manually change channel info in the guide, but don't hold me to it. Is the amp they used also feeding the Tivo? If it is, then there is nothing the amp is doing that is causing your problems. The best thing to do is deal with the Pioneer 1 on 1. Since they came out and swapped the card, and you're not getting EMM's, it would appear it's a provisioning issue. You can ask them if they can send the staging EMM's direct from their DNCS, although if there are problems with the account anything they do will be null if the billing system hits the account again. Keep us posted |
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 2 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks for the reply. Yes I plan on follow up with Pioneer once I hear anything from the local rep, then get to them one on one. The TV guide has its own setup menu. No selection obvious that has the word "rebuild" in the name, they get their own follow up re: channel lineup. Yes the amp feeds both units, so that is not suspect. Provisioning and DNCS? Terms I do no understand yet. You reference the billing system hitting the account again, so that's what triggered the outage on two cards December 1st? At the time I asked call center CSA about that and they saw no problem, but that meant little. Thanks for the input, I'll let you know what turns up next while we track this sucker down. |
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Silver Member Username: Bill984Post Number: 157 Registered: Oct-05 | when i bought my 1130 and 930 the cable guy told me( comcast) i would make 3 calls about the card, 1 it didn't work right,2 give me a box, 3 give me a dvr. he was right. |
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 3 Registered: Dec-06 | I spoke to Pioneer tech support today. There are no software or firmware updates I need. The update I did was this weekend was strictly for the Media Gallery feature. He pointed out the important CableCard diagnostic line as: Powerkey Status : Not Ready - Waiting for EMM Until TW can trigger the Powerkey Status to "Ready" the card won't read any EMM hits. So I've passed that info on to my TW Supervisor contact who will have to pass it on to his technical folk, the one helping me is on vacation until 12/27, so I wait. Any ideas cableguy? What triggers the Powerkey Status? and how can it work in the Tivo box but not on the Pioneer? btw: The Pioneer tech happens to work in So Cal and is a Time Warner customer himself and has had his own experience with the provider during since they absorbed Adelphia here. They're happy to get their guys talking to the TW guys too. |
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Silver Member Username: CableguySomewhere on... U.S. Post Number: 894 Registered: Mar-05 | There could be a number of things causing the powerkey status to read "not ready-waiting for emm" The key thing is getting the emm's to the card. If it has said "not ready-waiting for time" I could understand why you're not getting emms. Bottom line is it sounds like a provisioning issue, which is either account coding or the types of "hit's" they are sending to your card. Move to my system, I'll get you working  |
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 4 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks, I'll go in search of "provisions!" Appreciate the input. It sure helps me to at least have a better understanding of how this stuff works (or doesn't). I'll let you know if I move too. |
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New member Username: Yankee_in_scPawleys Island, SC Georgetwon Post Number: 10 Registered: May-05 | Hi Cableguy; Maybe you've been unavailable for a little while. So, thought I should probably try to post this here as well. It is Christmas... I posted this on another thread on 12-20. But, there are some things I need to add. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/276921.html I have been working with the local TWC Tech Operations for the past 2 years. I have provided your 9-12-06 comments from another thread to them but, they still cannot find the problems. Actually, I wish there was a way to arrange a conference call between you, me and TWC with them in the house and their head end. That may be the only way to finally get to the bottom of this. TWC here in Pawleys Island, (part of TWC in Columbia, SC) has told me that they have had a lot of problems with CableCards. They said that they have little confidence in the CC technology and that they are only supporting CC's because the FCC is requiring them to do it. So, Any help you could provide would be great. The TV is a Sony KD-30XS955 purchased in Jan 2004. It originally had the infamous 161-6 error message. To fix that, Sony replaced the Q-Box in Sept'05 but, there are still problems. In your 9-12-06 posting in another thread you had suggested to me; "Your cable provider should have somebody with a QAM analyzer that can connect in at your house and determine how clean the QAM signal is there. As for the channel map changing on you, I would ask your provider if they are hiding and un-hiding channels around those dates. It's not uncommon for systems to do that, but as to the regularity of it, it seems kind of odd. My opinion is either they are changing the line-up or there is a problem with the DCM (defined channel map) in your system and can only be answered by their master control." I provided the above to TWC about a month ago but, as mentioned they still cannot find anything wrong. There continues to be intermittent tiling on one QAM frequency (609, channels 193 to 197). Errors appear on the Diagnostics screen and occasionally unlocks. TWC agrees that all readings are within acceptable levels. Two weeks ago, TWC swapped out the CableCard but there has been no improvement and actually created another problem. There is now constant severe tiling on the channels listed below that did not exist prior to the card swap. Unlike the above problem though, no errors appear on the Diagnostics screen. Additionally, the severe tiling appears to be effected by audio, the more voices, the more tiling. Temperature and/or time of day also seem to be a factor. The tiling occurs as early as 7:30 AM but, goes away later in the day, 9:30 PM yesterday, 4:15 PM today.. Below are the channels effected by this latest condition. Chan / QAM 127 / 633 140 / 681 159 663 169 / 609 - also shows errors on the Diagnostics screen (original problem) 368 / 681 TWC has already checked all cabeling within the house and all is fine. Both the TV with the CC and the STB are using dedicated cables from the block outside the As far as hiding and unhiding channels, the occurrence of that has at least been reduced. TWC has admitted that they are moving QAM frequencies around but, they are saying that the problem will not go away until they are done. None of these problems occur when using the STB. Please comment. Thanks, Dave Robson aka, Yankee in SC |
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Bronze Member Username: Yankee_in_scPawleys Island, SC Georgetwon Post Number: 11 Registered: May-05 | Cableguy; TWC was here again today and did another CC swap. This one eliminated the severe tiling that the other card had apparently caused. Not sure if it was a bad card or the way it was set up 2 weeks ago. Is it necessary to unplug the TV power cord? That was done today but not before. Now, the only problem that remains is the intermittent tiling on one QAM frequency (609, channels 193 to 197). Errors appear on the Diagnostics screen and occasionally unlocks. TWC thinks this might get corrected when the two-way cards become available. Please let me know your thoughts. Thanks, |
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Bronze Member Username: WanabtechPost Number: 53 Registered: Apr-06 | Have you showed them the issue specific to 609 mhz that you mentioned? If so, what was their reply? I'm not a TWC employee, but most techs carry meters capable of reading BER, MER, for both the FDC & RDC. It is not uncommon to see a particular frequency to have an ingress issue, but the surrounding frequencies be ok. I would have them check that. I would also ask them to install a box and look at that frequency on the box as well. The box will have the ability to show BER as well. This would eliminate the tv if the box tiled as well. |
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Bronze Member Username: Yankee_in_scPawleys Island, SC Georgetwon Post Number: 12 Registered: May-05 | Wanabtech; Thanks for the response. There is a box (STB) at the same location as the TV with the CC. Both have dedicated cables going to them. There is no tiling on the box and switching the cables between the TV and the box gives the same results. The box is ok but the TV tiles on QAM freq 609. Yes, TWC did connect a QAM analyzer and all looks ok. The problem is, they cannot locate the source. They say their system is fine and the cabeling in the house is good too. I agree that does not make any sense but, that is what TWC is saying. |
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New member Username: DrahcirPost Number: 1 Registered: Dec-06 | Our new Panasonic HT-42PX600U was delivered on 9/1/06. Comcast service and Motorola CableCard installed on 10/3/07. Channels 25, 27, 28, 66 of the requested channels could not be received. Visit the next day by a tech and his supervisor, with swapping of several cards did not resolve the problem. Super thought the problem was the codes being sent from the dispatcher and had it looked into. Over the ensuing weeks sometimes the missing channels would appear, but behavior was erratic: e.g., lose it if tune away from it; or here one day and gone the next; or only attainable if tuning 'down channel' I called Panasonic customer service about he problem. He had me run a diagnostic giving (among other things) the SNR's. There were no SNR's for the missing channels. He thought that meant low signals from Comcast for those channels and said that they didn't trust the cable companies service men's signal strength meters. He also said that the software version was the latest one. A couple of weeks ago we suddenly had a week with those channels behaving normally and showing SNR's and 256QAM. Then as suddenly as it appeared, it disappeared. I subsequently observed that there were 12 channels with no SNR's. All of them had 64QAM instead of the requisite 256QAM, and all of them had a frequency of 609 mc. I began to think that there might be a problem with the tuner and called Panasonic about it. They said they would have their local service rep check it out and put him on the phone. After explaining the problem he said he would call me after the Christmas holiday. He called as he promised but said that after researching the problem there is nothing he could do about the problem. He said he thought it was a CableCard issue. Advice of any kind would be greatly appreciated. |
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Bronze Member Username: Yankee_in_scPawleys Island, SC Georgetwon Post Number: 13 Registered: May-05 | It is interesting that we both have a problem with the same QAM Freq, 609. But, my Sony shows 256 QAM and a SNR reading on all digital & HD channels. I have e-mailed the link to this thread to the Tech Operations Mgr at TWC. It could be just coincidence but, it is worth checking out. He plans to come out again next Tuesday. The plan is to have a QAM analyzer connected to the cable going to the box while the TV has the CC diagnostics screen up on a channel with the 609 QAM freq. This will determine if there is anything showing on the meter when an error appears on the TV diagnostics screen. TWC is saying that either there is something from local radio waves that is causing some kind of interference or there is still a problem with the TV. Sure hope it is not the latter. |
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Bronze Member Username: WanabtechPost Number: 55 Registered: Apr-06 | David, what is the value of the SNR for the problematic channel? |
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Bronze Member Username: Yankee_in_scPawleys Island, SC Georgetwon Post Number: 14 Registered: May-05 | Thanks for asking. The SNR value and AGC% for the problem QAM freq. is the same as all other channels and QAM Freq's...SNR = 32 to 34, AGC% = 20 to 22. SNR's on all channels actively fluctuate within this range as well. The errors on the problem QAM, 609 (channels 193 to 197) range from 20 to 500+. I have also suggested to TWC that they replace QAM 609 with another frequency to see if that fixes the problem. That would probably be a last resort though. |
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Silver Member Username: CableguySomewhere on... U.S. Post Number: 896 Registered: Mar-05 | I doubt they are going to change frequencies. The problem is not going to be solved without a little leg work. |
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 5 Registered: Dec-06 | Back to the beginning of this thread. My situation with Pioneer Elite and cable card is resolved. The short story is that the solution was swapping cards until one worked. The longer story is that I ended up with three "senior" TW techs on scene (each showed up one at a time with their own truck, I wonder what the neighbors thought?) One of the three had made the last visit here and was suspicious of the Pioneer tuner. I explained to him that Pioneer had no firmware or software issures and would be happy to talk to TW techs. Meanwhile, the two more senior techs watched as tech #3 swapped out cards. He was the 5th card when I noticed it displayed "Power Key ready" and I pointed out that that was the only time a card in that tuner gave that report. At first the card was not responding, finally it authorized, and the most senior tech wanted the office to send encryption hits. I presume this meant to force some ECMs. After a few minutes delay the turner began to pass the HD encrypted tier. The key appears to be that the card that worked was out of a new batch and had never been used. (all SA cards) Of the other cards, which they said worked at the shop, a couple started to do a firmware update on installation. The tech shook his head at that said "that's not good," and would pull that card right away. This all began back in September. Including the cards installed before this final TW visit it took a total of at least nine cards to find one that worked. Voodoo indeed. |
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Silver Member Username: CableguySomewhere on... U.S. Post Number: 911 Registered: Mar-05 | Steve D.~ Thanks for updating us, I'm a little unsure of why "newer" cards would have played any difference in the process. I prefer newer cards to older cards. I've also seen some cards where the powerkey status said "not ready waiting for time", even though the card took the hits and was working properly. Either way, glad it is finally working for you! |
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New member Username: CookiedusterThe Valley, CA Post Number: 7 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks. The voodoo is maddening. There does seem to be something going on with the cards that modifies the firmware once they are put in to use. Evidence to that is the automatic "firmware update" on some of the cards. But how nutty is it that one tuner on the same feed as my Tivo dual tuner took many cards before it found one that it liked? Even nuttier is having three techs standing around and NO ONE has any clue as to what is going on. Wacky. So what happens when the next generation of cards comes out? Even though I am usually an early adopter, I for one will NOT be on the bleeding edge this time. These cards are too finicky and there is too little understanding of how to make them work. Now that I'm up an running I just want to finish my installation without messing with the cards. thanks again for your attention! |
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