Lip Sync: DVD Player or TV
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1524 Registered: Sep-04 | I just purchased a Samsung HL-R6178 and am experiencing lip sync issues while playing "The Aviator" DVD. The video is delayed slightly and since I'm not running the video output through my Receiver, but directly to the TV, I'm fairly certain its not an issue with my receiver. This leaves either the TV or the DVD player. I'm pretty sure its the player as I'm only experiencing this issue on this particular DVD, and not on any others nor on any cable broadcasts. In addition the Hollywood Video salesman I purchased the DVD from said that he's seen certain movies have this problem with specific players. We swapped out the DVD just to be sure, but the problem remained. I have a Harmon Kardon DVD 25, and although its an older model I assumed it would be a good one. Well this sync issue is simply unacceptable, but before I run out and purchase an upscaling player I was wondering what model would be a good one and whether an upscaling player would even be necessary. Since my TV is new generation 1080p I figured its scaler might actually be on par with those found in many upscaling DVD players. I know this may be the wrong section to ask, but any comments would be appreciated. thanks -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1525 Registered: Sep-04 | I'd love to get another Harmon Kardon but apparently they don't provide an upscaling player, which I found rather odd. I was looking at this particular model: It got fantastic reviews, but none are recent, all submitted in 2004. That kinda makes me think the upscaling route is the way to go. It does utilize "pixel-by-pixel" processing as opposed to line-by-line and from the reviews this seems to make a big difference, but better that an upscaling unit? -Fishy |
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Bronze Member Username: ImustbecrazyPost Number: 30 Registered: Sep-05 | Fishy; Borrow another DVD player. Determine if it's the player or the TV. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1526 Registered: Sep-04 | Ok I learned a couple things. Its definitely the TV, but seems to be source related as well. I realy wanted to enjoy "The Aviator" so after returning it for another copy with no improvement I broke down and picked up what I thought was an excellent upconverting player, the Panasonic S77. It was ranked third behind the new Oppo and the $2600 Denon 5910 according to tests performed here(its huge, dialup users beware): http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all Well either numbers don't mean anything or upconverting DVD players are overly hyped, because although lip sync issues became barely noticeable when running the DVD via hdmi, the picture went to crap. I started noticing occurences of false contouring or "clay face" everywhere, even in brightly lit scenes(maybe a dithering artifact). These artifacts were occasionally present when using the DVD 25, but were rare and really not that much of a distraction. However the movie was nearly unwatchable with the S77. I said Ok, maybe my DVD 25 is responsible for the video delay so I tried again via the S77's component outs. Although the picture still wasn't as good as my HK's, the artifacts were reduced substantially, but of course now the video delay was even worse. I know what some of you are thinking. "He's using the hdmi cable that came with the player. Those things suck." Well if thats the case then $135 Monster cables suck too, because on insistence of my Sound Advice salesman I gave in and bought a set and got the same results. I knew it wasn't going to help, but took the thing home anyways to debunk his cable worship(it goes back tomorrow). I have tried a couple of other movies with simlar results. "Alexander" even has a noticeable delay(and artifacts) using hdmi and although Pirates of the Carribean managed to "fix itself" as the movie played on the DVD 25, it had a really bad delay for the first couple of scenes. One thing that I forgot to mention was that both "Alexander" and "The Aviator" were previously viewed movies. I thought maybe that had something do with it so bought a new copy of "The Aviator" from Target. It still has a slightly noticeable delay, but was watchable once you became caught up in the story. So maybe "used" DVD's aren't a good idea, but that desn't explain the problems I had with a new copy of "Pirates". So now as the end of the return period for the Samsung draws near I'm trying to figure out what to do. Should I have a tech come out and take a look? look for a firmware update? ask for another Sammy? look into a 1080p Mitsubishi? what? I mean I know people have had similar problems with light engine technology in the past, just ask Tom Bong, but after dropping $4500 on a TV, I don't think I can just sit back and hope things will work out whenever I load a DVD. Its a shame. When this TV does work, it truly is a spectacular experience. Even SD cable broadcasts look great from 6 ft away. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1527 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh one other thing. I do remember seeing false contouring on a couple HBO HD broadcasts of "Rome" so that problem isn't only limited to the hdmi and component inputs. Happens with the cable card as well. I haven't noticed any lip sync issues with cable broadcasts however. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1528 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh forgot something else too. When using the S77's hdmi I tried all the available output settings, 480i, 480p, 720p, 1080i. Didn't seem to make any difference. Still had clay faces. -Fishy |
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RandyM Unregistered guest | Keep in mind that very, very few DVD players have upconverters that are better quality than the ones in the televisions. Granted, you are using very high end players that I have not tested, but, in general, this is true. Your best picture on any component or HDMI input should be with the native scan rate used by the display, usually 720p. The "clay" faces are common with Samsung processing, which includes high levels of coring. Coring removes high frequency detail and noise. They then use extra peaking to make up for the coring, however with face detail, once it's gone, it's gone. |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 382 Registered: May-05 | My lip/sync experiences through two models of Samsung DLP sets have shown me an inconsistancy that isn't explainable by the video processing excuse I've heard others talk about. While the P models had three audio delay settings in the service menu, which did nothing to correct the occasional mismatch, the R models are absent of such adjustments. My audio is received by my Onkyo home theater receiver from two sources. The first is optical from the set for feeds from off-air through the internal ATSC tuner. The second is optical from my Direct TV receiver. The ocurrance is very rare with off-air broadcasts through the internal ATSC tuner. Observations of mismatch appeared on a 19 inch analog Sony CRT in my kitchen at the same time leading me to believe that some occurances are truly source related. It happens more often than most people are aware of, but some of us are more sensitive than others. We spend thousands of dollors and start looking for the slightest problem. My Direct TV SIR TS360 receiver will offer some occasional mismatch on HD channels, which appears to correct itself. By the same token I've witnessed a slide into mismatch again, though this is very rare. All other Direct TV channels are matched perfectly 100% of the time. Go figure! Sure seems like the source to me. My DVD player is a Samsung HD 841 upconvert with the DVI output. All DVD's are matched 100% of the time. I have heard of other players giving owners of the R series Samsung DLP's some sync trouble, but those two reported back that another player corrected the problem. It didn't seem to matter what connection method is used. According to Helpful Smurf, game lag was game specific on his HL-R5067W. Most of his games played perfectly. One seemed to be somewhat delayed. It makes me wonder about content and how much quality control goes into the massed produced CD's. My conclusion: There simply isn't enough consistancy with mismatch to make a determination that the Samsung DLP suffers from some irregular video processing delay. Off-air source content is suspect, though rare. Direct TV is suspect, but is HD channel specific. DVD mismatch appears to be component related. CD content could be suspect particularly with specific non-progressive games. I have become hyper-sensitive to all digital A/V issues. I spent big money and I want this beautiful display to be perfect in every way. I Don't want to be the lemon holder. That said, DVI/HDMI is not a perfected technology. It works well with some equipment match-ups and not so well with others. The digital world has introduced us to audio drop-out, video freeze, fragmentation, and black-out, which has taken the place of snow, grain, and herring bone patterns of the analog days. It's all cutting edge new age stuff. The evolution to the digital age is not absent of errors and growing pains. So many sources, so much variation in content quality, so many mediums of transport, so many digital processing circuits, so many interactive components, and so many display technologies makes the transition incredibley complicated. Bill Gates has created a "plug-and play" society, so, people expect to buy perfection and use it without problems. I wish it was that simple. The human factor tells me it's not. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1529 Registered: Sep-04 | Keep in mind that very, very few DVD players have upconverters that are better quality than the ones in the televisions. Well apparently this is the case with the HL-R6178. Otherwise I don't understand why my PQ seems better with an older non-upconverting player. Thats great but if video processing speed seems to be vary from source to source so much whats the point? Unless an hdmi input is utilized there's no way for the TV to "intelligently" correct for this. Samsung really should have included a digital audio-in on its sets. Well anyways something ain't right here, but I'm not sure there's anything I can do about it. I've waited 3 years to take the HDTV plunge. It would be awfully hard to return this set and wait another year or so for something "better" to come along. We may have blu-ray/HD-DVD players and media out before then. I think I'll take back "Alexander" for another copy and see if things change. I didn't think it was possible, but maybe DVD's do wear out. No more "previously viewed" movies for me regardless. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1530 Registered: Sep-04 | The "clay" faces are common with Samsung processing, which includes high levels of coring. Coring removes high frequency detail and noise. They then use extra peaking to make up for the coring, however with face detail, once it's gone, it's gone. What about a 1080p Mitsu? Sound Advice has a 62" model for about $400 less. http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/televisions/details.asp?id=189 Oh I tried turning off Samsung's digital noise reduction feature. It didn't seem to help either the false contouring or lip sync problems. Lol, seems like buying any HDTV offering these days is pretty much a crap shoot. -Fishy |
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RandyM Unregistered guest | The televison manufacturers can only take care of their part of the path and insure that audio is properly time-adjusted for video individually from each input to the screen/speakers or output jacks. That's what we do at RCA (disclosure: I work in product development). I can't speak for other manufacturers. However, as you are discovering, many DVD players, set top boxes, games, etc. are putting out audio and video that are not perfecting aligned at all scan rates. Not to mention many broadcasters. . .shame on them. Very sloppy engineering. I haven't looked at the 1080p Mitsu. And, no, I don't think there is a way to reduce or remove coring on Samsung sets. Plus, I try not to make too many specific comments about other manufacturers. It's not a crap shoot, but there are many different signal processing approaches between manufacturers. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1531 Registered: Sep-04 | However, as you are discovering, many DVD players, set top boxes, games, etc. are putting out audio and video that are not perfecting aligned at all scan rates. Actually if you reread my previous posts you'll notice that I have the same lip sync issues when running two separate DVD players via component, which mysteriously diasappear when utilizing the hdmi capabilities of one. Its fairly obvious that my TV is having difficulty processing certain DVD content, but utilizes an internal audio delay feature to correct for this. Unfortunately PQ suffers when utilizing the hdmi input so I'm stuck with two choices: 1) Watch excellent DVD video via component, but suffer through lip sync issues. or 2) Utilize the hdmi port and avoid the lip sync problems yet suffer inferior PQ, not to mention the added expense of an additional, and IMO unnecessary, upconverting player. Sorry, I don't think we can get away with blaming the DVD players or even the source material this time around. There are obviously limitations inherent in the design of my 1080p set. The question is what to do about it? The problem isn't really additional video artifacts. Its the lip sync stuff and because of this I'm seriously thinking about returning this Samsung for a Mitsubishi 1080p if there is a chance this issue won't be a factor on that set. Don't get me wrong. My Sammy kickzorz in all other departments, but I like my DVD's too much to put up with this. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1532 Registered: Sep-04 | Ok to verify my "internal audio delay" hypothesis I went and did a little experiment. I ran an additional optical cable from the s77 to my receiver. I inserted "Alexander" and immediately noticed a slight lip sync issue with audio coming from the TV to my receiver after being routed there by the hdmi. However when I switched to the audio out coming dircetly from the s77, man did the lips sync get bad. It was off complete syllables even. This may be a crappy DVD which needs to be returned , but I view this as proof that Samsung uses an internal audio delay to corect for video procesing time. Not good for my DVD 25. I'm going to go pick up a "new" copy of Alexander and give it a try, but unfortunately it looks as though this otherwise wonderful HDTV will be going back. -Fishy [note] Lol, sure am glad the "Bonger" ain't still with us. He'd be all over this thread like white on rice.  |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1533 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh great. Things just keep getting better and better. I just realized I get NO Dolby Digital out from my TV when viewing Alexander via hdmi. However, its there when hooked directly from the player. This must be some type of HDCP compliant crap. In fact this seems to be the case with all DVD's. So much for utilizing the internal audio delay feature to correct for video processing delays. Maybe I have something set wrong on the s77, but I doubt it. Sorry Samsung, but I think you've just lost a customer here. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 384 Registered: May-05 | I think you're losing it! Blaming the set will be your loss. Try a Samsung HD850 with HDMI out. I hear the newer HD950 works well too. It's clear to me that different players yield different results. http://www.pricegrabber.com/search.php/catzero_id=21/form_keyword=samsung+DVD BTW, there are many incompatibilities with audio and video using HDMI between certain equipment pairings. It's not Samsung DLP specific. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1536 Registered: Sep-04 | BTW, there are many incompatibilities with audio and video using HDMI between certain equipment pairings. It's not Samsung DLP specific That doesn't explain the lip sync issues with my old DVD 25 via component. Something ain't right and I'm 99.9% sure it has something to do with my set. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 386 Registered: May-05 | What's an "old DVD 25"? Like I said before, No lag with my HD 841 and I have used both connection methods. My DVI/HDMI connection doesn't trash the picture, either. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1538 Registered: Sep-04 | Harmon Kardon DVD 25 http://www.epinions.com/pr-DVD_Players_harman_kardon_DVD_25_DVD_25/display_~full _specs Panasonic S77 http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vModelDetail?displayTab=O&st oreId=15001&catalogId=13401&itemId=89310&catGroupId=24988&modelNo=DVD-S77S&surfM odel=DVD-S77S&cacheProgram=11002&cachePartner=7000000000000005702 Neither players are "cheap", in fact the DVD 25 actually provides a better picture than the S77 ranked 3rd behind the new Oppo and the $2700 Denon 5910 here: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi Unfortunately the S77 has macroblocking issues so it goes back to Brandsmart since I'm done playing with the time delay. Apparently the new Sammy 1080p sets have awesome scalers. Too bad this one can't seem to run at a a steady space. I may just have a deffective set. After all it is one of the first HL-R6178's off the assembly line. I probably should have waited a couple more months. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 387 Registered: May-05 | By cheap I meant inexpensive. Sorry for that...didn't mean to call your stuff cheap. Pretty strange condition. No other 1080P owners are posting this problem. A Samsung tech told me that the "R" series has a processor chip set (not the DMD) operating at more than twice the speed of previous models. If it doesn't run at a steady pace with a DVD input, you would think it would be apparent with any other input. You would think it would be a steady consistant problem, but it's not. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1539 Registered: Sep-04 | If it doesn't run at a steady pace with a DVD input, you would think it would be apparent with any other input. I don't know if you would call a cable card an "input" but thats the only other source I'm utilizing and I experience no lip sync issues there. There's one other problem I have with the set that the guys at Sound Advice actually seemed interested in addressing. The image on the screen is not centered. In other words more information on the left hand side of the screen is cropped than the right. I first noticed this when viewing 4:3 content, but thought it was possibly a programing glitch with comcast cable broadcasts. However its also apparent when using the PC input, which btw makes for one heck of a 1920x1080p monitor. There's a slight amount of ghosting at the corners and top and bottom of the screen, but otherwise it looks great. Have you heard of any other 1080p owners having this centering issue? It doesn't really bother me any as my general viewing experience isn't effected by it. Was wondering if the thing might've got "dropped" somewhere along the line. That could explain a lot. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 389 Registered: May-05 | "Have you heard of any other 1080p owners having this centering issue?" Nope, but there are geometry adjustments in the service menu. I would only allow an authorized tech to make the adjustments if you plan on keeping it. 1-800 SAMSUNG, prompts 2, 1, 3, 1 will get that scheduled. They might address the DVD lag, but I'm doubtful of a positive outcome in that regard. Don't trust SA or BB monkeys during the first year. The factory warranty is the proper authority. I've heard of people losing their sets for weeks to unscrupulous store techs. Rough transport is all too common. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1540 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah, Sound Advice(Tweeter) is a little different company. They don't contract out warranty service but do everything in house. Still we are having problems with a Samsung plasma we purchased from them as well and are having a helluva time getting someone out to take a look. One of the reasons I was going crazy about these issues was that I was right at 30 days from delievry of the set, but apparently Sound Advice has a 60 day return policy in this case. I think I'll just return the set and see if they can get me out another one. It may be a lot easier than having some tech diagnose/fix the problems. I'm really happy with the picture I'm getting with the DVD 25. I have "old" but very good Harmon Kardon equipment(see profile). Unfortunately my $1000 receiver has no delay adjustments other than the minor ones used to achieve better imaging. If I could use the DVD 25 it'd be great, but the video delay thing has me worried even with a new set. I've heard of $250 dedicated time delay "black boxes". Do you know somwhere I could find one if it turns out to be necessary. I've been looking for a good DVD player that could provide this function, but other than the Sony DVP-NS975 http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all &type=&manufacturer=5&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0 all available players with this feature use the "Genesis" DCDI chip which unfortunately doesn't seem to like my TV and can have serious macroblocking issues. In fact I'm not even sure the Sony 975 would work as its time delay features only work with PCM output(not with Dolby Digital/DTS). I still haven't figured out exactly what this means and am not sure whether it would work or not with my receiver. Does this mean that decoding that takes place inside the DVD player can't be time delayed? Would my receiver be able to decode DTS or Dolby Digital from a PCM signal? Sorry for all the questions but I've had to overcome a rather steep learning curve in the past few weeks and still haven't got everything figured out. thanks -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1541 Registered: Sep-04 | Oh I appreciate the Samsung HD950 suggestion. This unit does use a different procesor that doesnt't exhibit macroblocking(Zoran), but unfortunately can fail to provide blacker-than-black(BTB) information via hdmi. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=5892463&&#post5892463 This would make dark scenes look pretty crappy. My DVD 25 seems to excel in this department which is one of the reasons I'd like to be able to use it. Maybe the 850 would be a better choice. It uses the Zoran chip as well. I'n not sure how "good" of a player it really is and how it would compare to my Harmon Kardon. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/cgi-bin/shootout.cgi?function=search&articles=all &type=&manufacturer=27&maxprice=0&deInt=0&mpeg=0 Its low MSRP($150) kinda scares me a bit. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1542 Registered: Sep-04 | Ummmm..... do you now if either 850 or 950 has a time delay feature? I didn't see this information on the Samsung website so I'm assuming neither do. I know I probably should be posing these questions in the DVD player section, but it seems to be clogged up with threads asking for DVD unlock codes. I'm not sure how much help I'd get there. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1543 Registered: Sep-04 | I found this audio delay box(Felston DD540) http://www.felston.com/ Has anyone ever used anyhing like this? $229 is a bit steep, but it looks like it'd be a lot easier to use than those delay features found on some DVD players. It was a big pain to lip-sync things using my S77. I never really could get "Alexander" to look right. I don't know if the video delay varied with the movie or if 100 msec just wasn't enough. Its also possible that 20 msec steps just isn't enough resolution. I may be picky enough to notice a mere 10 msec delay difference. -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 390 Registered: May-05 | Personally, I think any and all home theater receivers should have a variable digital audio delay adjustment. Unfortunately, the manufacturers have decided to make them available on only the high end receivers. I think the Felston is a viable alternative for those with the cash. I have seen one post where the guy was very satisfied with the unit. Dolby 5.1 cannot be decoded from a PCM signal. The HD850 and 950 do not have a delay feature. Don't let the MFRP worry you. My HD841 is a refurb I picked up from Tiger Direct for $65 in like new condition. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1545 Registered: Sep-04 | I found a 6200+ post "Samsung 1080p Owners" thread on the AVS forums and asked about the lip sync problem. Here's one of the responses: " The lip-sync issue is a well know problem with Samsung DLP sets. They appear to be more susceptible to this problem than rear projection TVs (including DLPs) from other manufacturers. This problem is especially annoying because the degree of lip-sync lag can vary throughout the movie. In addition, this problem has practically rendered Samsung DLP TVs useless for first person gaming. There are three things that you can do to minimize or perhaps solve your problem: 1) Purchase a receiver that has audio delay functionality built in or purchase an external dedicated audio delay device such as Felston. This solution is a compromise at best because the degree of lip-sync lag can vary during the same movie. If you are a perfectionist, this problem may drive you nuts. 2) Connect your computer to VGA input and use DVD-ROM drive in your computer to play movies. No lag in this case plus you get a super nice picture. 3) Replace Samsung with 1080p Sony SXRD, Mitsubishi DLP, or Toshiba DLP (but check them out first to make sure that you will be happy with the way they handle Alexander the movie). For the time being, there is absolutely nothing that you can do to your Samsung DLP TV to make this problem go away. It's a design/engineering flaw with the last three generations of Samsung DLP sets. It may be related to poorly implemented internal video processing that takes too much time to complete. Samsung has been fully aware of this flaw; however, they are unable to fix it. " from here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6374957#post6374957 I think the guy writes too well to be a tom bong reincarnation, lol. Think I'll take a good look at the Mitsubishi option. Too bad only the top of the line model has a PC input. As of now thats the only way you can get a 1080p signal to one of these sets. They also only utilize a 6 segment color wheel which might result in inferior blacks. Man this Sammy looks so good, but I bought the thing primarily for viewing DVD's and this lip sync problem is unacceptable and looks to be unfixable as well. I really don't want to have to constantly be making time delay adjustments throughout an entire movie. Regardless, thanks for the help FYI. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1546 Registered: Sep-04 | Today I regrettably arranged for the return of my 6178. I guess video delay is a common problem with the new 1080p Sammys. Many have addressed it with audio delay devices such as the Feltson, but unforunately in my case the problem varies from DVD to DVD so this isn't an option unless I plan on making adjustments every time prior to enjoying a movie. My salesman even admitted to the problem and stated that there was no way it could be fixed on my set. Maybe future 1080p's will be better, but this one is going back. Its a pity. While waiting for the paper work to be cleared. I compared the 6178 to the Mits 62628, and Sony's new 60" SXRD and the picture on the Sammy seemed a lot better. I did notice that both the Sammy and Mitsu were slightly "behind" other sets in the showroom. In other words they would "blink" when frames were changed in the store's HD feed. It probably wasn't enough delay to cause any lip sync issues, but it definitely was there. Guess now I'll sit back and wait a few months to see what develops. In the meantime I sure will miss this set. Despite the video delay problems the 6178's picture is simply outstanding. -Fishy |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1547 Registered: Sep-04 | I'm putting the return of this set on hold. I may have found a fix for the video lag. I played "Alexander" on my PC through the PC input @ 1920x1080 with zero lip sync issues. The picture is still not as good as a regular DVD player, but I'm working on it. You can find a bit of the discussion regarding my problems here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?p=6380911#post6380911 I may get to keep this bad boy after all! -Fishy |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 393 Registered: May-05 | You're up early! I hope you get it worked out. Best regards! |
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Bronze Member Username: ImustbecrazyPost Number: 35 Registered: Sep-05 | Fishy; "The Aviator" DVD wasn't a very good movie anyway. |
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New member Username: ClubmikeyPost Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | Hey Fishy, I have the Samsung hlr-6168 and I have a regular dvd player hooked to the TV. I don't have any problems with the TV. By the way, did you ever buy a upconverting dvd player? Is it worth it since the TV supposedly upconverts the signal anyway? Also, I've heard that its better to upconvert from the DVD player than from the TV because its sending a 1080i digital signal and the TV will then convert it into a 1080p. I really have no idea whats true. |
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Bronze Member Username: MystroPost Number: 67 Registered: Jan-05 | I have not had any audio/video sync problems at all. I have a Sammy 61" 1080p. I am beyond picky when it comes to tech issues. My HK AVR 7300 does have digital video sync. I have played around with it and I do'nt thing I need any time corrections?? My audio is 100% digital via coax from my sat box and HK DVD player. I do not use any analog audio sends at all. Try only digital audio output/inputs and see if your time delay goes away. |
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Gold Member Username: FishyTamarac Ft.Laud, FL USA Post Number: 1548 Registered: Sep-04 | Hmmm.... maybe I got a lemon. Although it seems a good many people on the AVS forums with 1080p Sammys have had to utilize some sort of audio time delay to get things right for watching DVD's. Anyways, there's a big buzz on the AVS forums about the new Hewlett Packard 1080p offerings. Although these sets don't support a full 1080p through the VGA input they DO support 1080p via HDMI. At the moment there are no other 1080p DLP's which can do this. This could be an important feature if the planned Blu-ray standard turns out to provide 1080p at 24 fps. After my experience I'm looking for a 1080p set that will be able to display 1080p with a minimum of internal processing. I've utilized only digital audio outs, and yes, I've tried an upconverting player, two in fact: the Pansonic S77s and the Samsung HD850. The HD850's lip sync wasn't that far off, but was there nonetheless and annoying as well. The S77 was a nightmare however, with a delay of more than 100ms which is the most that player can compensate for. Sorry, maybe I'm too picky, and maybe I just have a bad set, but this one's going back. Maybe I'll pull the trigger on a a 65" HP, but I'll be waiting at least a month or two to verify the manufacturers have gotten all the bugs out. While debating on whether to buy the HL-R6178 A little voice inside of me was whispering "Beware of brand new technology". I think I should have listened. Thanks for all the responses. -Fishy |
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New member Username: NexsenColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 1 Registered: Oct-05 | What you describe regarding the lip-sync problems with your Samsung DLP is true of almost all high end displays today including not only DLP but Plasma and LCD. The problem is that video delay is added at various stages in the broadcast chain allowing the audio to get ahead of it. A lot of delay has always been present but just not noticed since the out of sync condition was usually less than 50 to 75 ms which most people can tolerate without becoming consciously aware of it. These display technologies and even CRT projectors which add no delay when used with scalars like the Faroudja and Lumagen can add another 64 to 100 ms of video delay pushing the cumulative delay above the "threshold of recognition" and becoming very noticeable. The really strange thing that apparently isn't well understood by the industry is that "once your threshold of recognition has been exceeded" it changes and becomes much much lower. To see what I am saying, go back and look carefully at a normal CRT TV with no video processing to delay the video. I will bet you can now see video delays or lip-sync error that you never noticed before. Your Samsung isn't the "cause" of lip-sync error and the delay it adds is very likely less than delays that were already present in the signals but it is simply "the straw that broke the camel's back". It added enough video delay to push the cumulative delay high enough for you to notice it. To Samsungs credit (I am not aware of any other manufacturer who has done this yet), they do have an internal audio delay to compensate for the delay that "they add" but this only handles stereo audio intended for their internal speakers. Considering how few people use internal stereo speakers with high end displays like this I am surprised they went to the expense but they did and that accounts for why you only get 2 channels if you take that delayed signal out of your Samsung. It also explains why some people see no lip-sync problem (they are likely using internal speakers or haven't realized yet that they've lost their Dolby Digital or DTS surround if using the delayed output. Chances are if you have already noticed the lip-sync error switching back to the internal speakers will not solve your problem. It "will" reduce the lip-sync error to about the same you will see on a CRT TV - which is simply what is in the signal as it arrives from the DVD or broadcast that wasn't noticeable before and that may be OK but who wants to give up surround sound? The solution is to add a variable audio delay to compensate for whatever video delay is in your signals and that will change depending on whether you are watching a DVD or broadcast and even from program to program on the same channel in many cases. This change may be as little as few ms but many who have been sensitized to lip-sync can detect changes that small and like to "tweak" each to perfect sync. Many of the new av receivers acknowledge the problem and offer a "lip-sync delay" sometimes called "av sync" but amazingly none seem to actually grasp the problem. I say that because most have put the delay in a menu that's hard to get to where you can't even see the video and hear the audio while setting the delay. That makes it almost impossible to ever find the right delay setting for "perfect" lip-sync. And it makes it very difficult to change during a program. Also some do not have enough total delay to achieve lip-sync. One of the better ones for example only has a total of 80 ms delay which isn't enough today and definitely won't be enough if audio goes to 96 KHz as some think it will since that 80 would drop to 40 ms. I think the av receiver manufacturers will eventually get it right but there are 3 other solutions available today that work with your existing digital receiver to add the audio delay. There is the Felston DD540 (and DD340 which came out last year) which sell for $230 and $204 respectively, the Primare Delay Box which sells for $375 I think, and another one that doesn't even have a remote control that sells for $399 but I have forgotten its name. You absolutely need a remote control which both the Felston and Primare Delay Box have. The Felston (I have both their models) and the Primare are both excellent products. The Felston has more delay, more presets, and more IR remote controlled functions with complete discreet codes for use in macro controllers like the Pronto, Harmony, etc. whereas the Primare features RS232 control which the Felston does not offer. So, unless you need RS232 (which I did not) the Felston DD540 is a lot less expensive. You can go to their websites to make your own comparison: www.felston.com and www.Primare.com (search for "delay box" at Primare). Either of these should solve your lip-sync problems no matter what their source. |
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Silver Member Username: FyiDallas, Texas Post Number: 401 Registered: May-05 | Fine post there NJ! It pretty much explains my intermittant occurrances. It's not happening often enough for me to justify spending a couple of hundred bucks, but it's nice to know there is a fix for those who are severely bothered by it. Thanks very much! |
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Rustyd100 Unregistered guest | Greetings. Happy to report that excessive noise reduction on the Sammy caused by coring ciruits CAN be reduced. Lets go to the serviced menu. With the power off, select MUTE-1-8-2-POWER. A long menu will appear on the left. Go to the DNLe menu line and select it. A new list of adjustments appear. Move down to Coring and the item below it (something like NDOR - both will be on) and turn each off. Wa-la...colored surface textures are returned! Power off and back on to leave service mode. I don't recommend messing with any other adjustments. Although you'll find H and V centering settings here, somewhere. My HD tuner was 20 lines low and a little left...and it was a pleasure to center it up! Afterwards, all inputs return to default values...so your custom picture settings will need to be reset for each input (contrast, picture setting, brightness, color, etc.). I also use an external audio delay for DTV. A new model by Alchemy2...but it is similar to the others. Provides up to a couple of seconds of delay...more than enough (I only needed 75ms). No lag problems from Sammy DVD-HD950 upscaled to screen res though HDMI. Cheers! |
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New member Username: NexsenColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 2 Registered: Oct-05 | That's the one I forgot. I saw a review but couldn't find out anything else about it. The article seemed complimentary even though it said it did not have a remote control but I noticed that the magazine also was selling it. It's just that I can't imagine not having a remote as I tweak my Felston Dd540 for perfect lip-sync during every program I watch. Maybe I've gotten too fixated on perfect lip-sync. The review also indicated its smallest delay increment was about 5 ms at 48 KHz sampling and that it did not display the delay time in ms but the numbers it displays mean different delay intervals at different sample rates. I haven't been able to find anything else on it but since you have one can you tell me if those things are true? Do they give any reason for their extremely long delay - 2 seconds? The earlier Felston DD340 had 340ms which was more than enough and their reason for doubling that to 680 ms in the DD540 was to insure it would still have 340 ms if audio goes to 96 KHZ as some expect. Do they have a website with more information? I haven't been able to find one. |
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Rustyd100 Unregistered guest | All true about the Achemy2. Felston is a better buy. Afraid to say primary attribute of Achemy2 is a fabulous face plate. Believe me, 5ms is fine enough for sync'ing audio. A single frame of 29.97 video passes in 33.4 ms...so 5 ms is less than one seventh a frame. My DTV delay is constant...so the lack of a remote doesn't matter. As mentioned, there is no delay from the upscaling DVD...so all-in-all, I'm good! The Alchemy was unveiled at an electronics show (CEDIA) and I decided to give it a try. But the Felston is a superior product due to the remote...and the two input model. |
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