Toshiba 57HLX82

 

Craig
Anyone have any hands on information about the new Toshiba 57HLX82 television. Sounds like a great TV. Have been looking at the new Sony Grand Vegas, but now considering waiting. Any responses ??
 

George Ross
http://www.avguide.com/newsletter/2002.12/toshiba57.jsp
 

Craig
Hey . . thanks for the additional information. This looks like it will change everything.

Would love to hear from someone who has seen the unit first hand.
 

Thomas Tranpark
Check out these threads on AVSForum. There's a guy who already owns one and fully loves it. He even took several photos w/ his digicam.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=221101&highlight=57hlx82

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=210099&highlight=57hlx82

--Thomas Tranpark
 

Craig
Thank you for the information about this board . . . very helpful. I will be watching as this unfolds.
 

I saw this Toshiba 2-Mpixel LCOS TV at the CES where
it was playing a Japanese test loop video. The picture
was very finely detailed, but a little dark (I would
never buy an HDTV with under 2 mega pixels - so at
least this TV fits the bill in this respect!)

Brightness is quoted at 400cd/m - same as Samsung DLP
- not bad,but not real good either(Plasmas can be over
500cd/m bright)
One becomes suspicious of its "anti-reflective"
shield (which could be helping "black-level"
performance at the expense of brightness)
 

C Wood,
you said "I would never buy an HDTV with under 2 mega pixels" and I had heard that there were only about 3 of them in the world, all over $20,000. Top H res. is 1080 and V res. is 1920 (native scan) but so few supposedly meet the 1920 spec prefering to hover in the 1500 range and only giving you around 1.5 MP and many are closer to 1.2 MP.
If there are some other diplays under $20,000 that you know of that do the full 2.07 MP please let me know.
 

Oh and if any of them are 1080 Progressive PLEASE let me know.
 

Derek
Hey Miguel, from what I understand, it takes a 9" CRT to produce a 1080i picture. No manufacturer I know of is producing those tubes on rear projectors. Zenith and Mitsubishi once had models and Sony one had a direct view model but these things have been gone for at least 3 years. I'm sure that DLP, D-ILA, LCOS and LCD will chase the CRTs away with the next round of HDTVs.

There are lots of front projectors though. Just about everyone makes data grade units. I remember seeing native 1080i HDTV up to 10 years ago when CES was in Chicago. The company was Barcovison. Try thier site - www.barco.com (I know, no one has heard of them). They make expensive [85K] projectors with more than twice the total pixels of the 57HLX82.
 

Derek
There is a quick review of Toshiba's LCOS TV in next months Sound and Vision Magazine.
 

C Wood
Miguel:
Most "HDTVs" only offer compromised resolution which
is one reason I have not purchased one. Direct-view
LCD is the next big thing like the soon to be
released Samsung 54". These beat everything else
so far and are 20% brighter than the Tosh. R/P LCOS!
Worth waiting for but don't buy a crappy Plasma
in the meantime as LCDs are about eat Plasmas for
lunch!
 

Hard to say about the LCDs. Most of the LCDs I've seen were ok, the best was the sony XBR. I like LCD for several reasons, no burn in and less fragile, but they haven't wow'd me with picture quality yet (except for the XBR) but they still lag in size and viewing angle. Of course it's only a matter of time before LCD gets big enough for all but Fujitsu has already announced 100" plasma.
The next Mits 65" Diamond will have 9" CRTs. Yay!! Also on the way from Mits is 82" LCOS! Hmph.
But are you sure that you need 9" to get 1080? If so every manufacturer out there is lying about their RPTVs HDTV status. According to ATSC the display must do either 1080i or 720p in order do be called HDTV(no standard set for vertical res even though native scan is up to 1920). Otherwise it can only be called EDTV or just DTV.
 

C Wood
Miguel:
The new Samsung 54" LCD (not yet released) is 1080 lines
vertical by 1920 lines horizontal or approx 2 million pixels
This is the full resolution of broadcast HDTV.

I think its picture looks better than the Sony XBR LCD
but does crush white detail a bit (no display is
perfect)

A RP TV with 9" tubes would be big and heavy - this
is not the future , but the past. They don't
necessarily need 9" tubes to achieve 1920 H resolution,
but it's easier to achieve because CRTs are limited
by "Aperture Distortion" that is, the spot size
on the target surface tends to "bloom"
or increase in size with inreased beam current
(causing a defocusing of highlights) - it's just
that 9" CRTs do this less.
Also RP sets suffer from registration & lens distortion
errors.
Mits should get out of CRTs -- but they Can't !!!!
Because Japan cannot compete with Korea on LCDs!!!!
So they must persue niche products - even if it's
yesterday's technology!
Like General Motors selling trucks & Cadillacs
because they can't build hybrids etc.
 

C Wood
Advantages of Direct View LCD:
*Low power consumption
*No phosphor burning
*Better colorimetry than phosphor-sourced light
*No age-deterioration of focus & luminosity
*No 'Aperture Distortion'
*No refraction errors (caused by projection lenses)
*No registration errors (caused by multi-panel/tube misalignment
*No R/P translucent screen (causing losses & distortion)
 

Derek
It's only a matter of time...
 

Great list of advantages Wood. Thanks!

"*Better colorimetry than phosphor-sourced light "

Please explain colorimetry. Do you mean color accuracy?

Looking back on previous comments you said
"One becomes suspicious of its "anti-reflective" shield (which could be helping "black-level" performance at the expense of brightness)"

Previous Toshiba's with anti-reflective screens have tended to be a little dark as well as a little magenta tinted, so you are probably correct though with less reflection brightness becomes less of a concern since it is all relative.

Cost and size are still a factor but as you say Derek, only a matter of time.
 

C have you got the model number on that Samsung yet?
 

C Wood
Samsung 54" LCD is LNT545W and available '04 for around $10,000.
Colorimetry would include the spectral bandwidth and
balance in the various primary colors etc. ( whites,
reds, greens, yellows etc look richer and more vivid
than colors from phosphor dots on CRTs)
For example, in the 1960s picture tubes switched to
"rare-earth phosphors" which gave increased light
output for the troublesome red. But this red was not as
rich and deep as the older dimmer picture tubes. I
have an old RCA CTC-55 color TV from 1955 with a
21" round picture tube and it has much richer reds
& greens!
 

Someone pointed out to me and since then I have spent alot of time studying the apparent greyscale problems on all current LCD TVs, direct view or otherwise. When watching a darker scene on every LCD I can lay eyes on the objects become muddled and hard to distiguish. Even the cheapest Sony, Mitsubishi or Toshiba RPTVs do a better job in the darker scenes. I have tried all kinds of setting changes to possibly correct but the only time it gets any better is when the brightness is too high and contrast suffers. Hopefully the samsung does better with this.
 

C Wood
I think this is the weakest point with LCDs - greyscale
linearity. CRTs have very linear greyscales . The
Samsung does compress the luminance gradations near
peak white and probably near black too - though I
don't notice it too much near absolute black - I'm
too busy being wowed by that super sharp picture.
Samsung seems to have solved the "black" problem
better than the Japanese makes (also looks better
than DLP and the Sony Wega RP LCD).
I was looking at the 20" Samsung LCD at Best Buy and
it looked better than the other LCDs and direct view
CRTs but you could see a lack of tonal shading
gradations on the white petals of a flower close-up.
What you could do is take one of those DVD Test-discs
into the store and play the Greyscale test portion
(it may have 10 or 12 grey scale steps from black
to white). This way you could compare objectivly
CRTs to RP & direct LCDs and DLPs, LCOS etc.
All magazine reviews of these new technologies
should use more of these objective tests (multiburst
for resolution & "stairstep" for greyscale linearity).
Sencore has an instrument that generates these signals
for HD formats. That way they could actually tell
us how many lines of resolution etc a receiver is
actually making !
 

Derek
I just saw the 57HLX82 at a Tweeters in Chicago and boy was I disapointed. The outside of the set looks great but the picture was no brighter than a typical rear projector. DLPs are much brighter. There was a TON of ringing in the picture that I could not get rid of by turning the sharpness all the way down. I could not find control for the SVM. The picture had a blue/grey haze to the blacks like and LCD and when I tried to push it down by lowering the black level, the picture lost detail. Lowering the color temperature from High to Warm had no effect of the haze. The picture looked almost like Sony's first LCD rear-projectors - it sucked.

Tweeters was showing what looked like DirecTV HD. It couldn't be real HDTV because the macroblocks were blatently aparent and I know DirecTV uses more compression that terrestial HDTV. I switched to regular DirecTV and the picture was much softer but with an unusual amount of noise. I guess the noise and the macroblocks could be interperated as a sharp picture.?

I tried looking at sharpness by bringing up the TVs menu but Toshiba uses dither and anti-aliasing to smooth the text out. This thing did have about 8 different inputs though.

I would have to spend some time with a computer and a test DVD to know for sure but at this point my three year-old Proscan could run rings around that thing in every but sharpness. I will reserve final judgement for a second look when they come to Florida.

To be continued...
 

LCW
Derek:
I also dropped into Tweeter on Golf Rd on Wednesday.
I saw this same Toshiba monster which was playing a
DVD of Antz and it was terrible. It was defocused
slightly to the point that the pixels were not delineated!
Why are they even demo-ing this set as it is obviously
a dud.
The units as CES had a very finely detailed picture
and good apparent blacks but, as I said before, were
disappointing in their lack of brightness.

The sales assistant did not attempt to defend this
$7,999 TV as he seemed to know it was a lost cause.
I thought at least TWEETER should put on a good demo
as they are supposed to be high end.

But then the salesman dropped the bomb: He said that
this model has been discontinued and they will be
dumping stock !!!
(though $7,999 is not quite the dump price yet)

So it appears that there are quality problems as
S&A magazine said their early production sample
was good but had misaligned lcos panels .
Obviously the one in Chicago has bad optics and/or
alignment problems - so good luck to early adopters!
 

Anonymous
TO DEREK:LCOS UNITS DO NOT SCAN,SO YOU WOULD NOT FIND A CONTROL SVM,FUTHERMORE ANYONE WHO SPENDS ANYTIME AT DOING RESEARCH OR HAS EXPERIENCE WITH,WILL KNOW ELECTRICAL INTERFERANCE WILL CAUSE RINGING/GHOSTING EFFECTS I.E MULTIPLE ELECTRICAL SOURCES NEARBY SUCH AS A SHOWROOM,ALSO I MIGHT ADD I SAW THE 57HLX82 AT A TWEETERS SIDE BY SIDE WITH A MIT.DIAMOND SERIES AND SONYS TOP OF LINE RPTV AND NO MATTER WHAT SOURCE WE TRIED WHEATHER IT WAS DIRECT TV,OVER THE AIR,HD MATERIAL THE 57HLX HAD THE BETTER OVERALL PICTURE.I KNOW THERE PROBLEMS WITH CONVERGENCE,CONTRAST,BLACK LEVELS,BUT THIS WAS THE FIRST PRODUCTION,AND THE PLUSES ARE MANY : STAY TUNED
 

LCW
Annoymous & Derek:

If you want to read plenty of 57HLX82 horror stories,
check out the AVS Forum under this model - you wouldn't
believe the problems . And they say no one has ever
seen a service manual - Toshiba just swaps them out!
Though if you can get a trouble-free one, they are
liked by these 'bleeding-edge' early adopters.
As for me, I'll stand aside for a while!
 

Derek
Anan

"TO DEREK:LCOS UNITS DO NOT SCAN,SO YOU WOULD NOT FIND A CONTROL SVM."

Duhh! You're right. I saw the ringing and automaticly thought SVM. The ringing was in the sets internally generated menu though.

I must say, one advantage I have recently noticed with fixed pixel displays is that they don't bloom when the brightness is turned up too high (If you think about it, they can't). I first noticed it with movie credits and TV station info at the bottom of the screen which is usually modulated at 100 % white. Go see that new Samsung DLP RPTV and compare it to a cheap 32 inch Sharp direct view. It will be very obvious. I can't wait for TI to introduce a 1920x1080 DLP.

Thanks.
 

LCW
The SGHT site has a report on the Sony SXRD demo in
San Francisco. The picture is awesome and the production
yields on these SXRD chips is much better than LCoS.
So forget Toshiba , I'm waiting to see the Sony.
http://www.guidetohometheater.com
 

Derek
See this article about Sonys new high-end brand.

http://www.cnn.com/2003/TECH/ptech/06/10/sony.qualia.reut/index.html
 

Derek
Here's another review http://www.theperfectvision.com/newsletter/tpv48/toshiba.html.
 

Derek
Whoops! Wrong link. You'll have to buy the magazine as I had to.
 

Anonymous
I'm a bit of a beginner in this area, so please pardon the elementary question. Does LCOS technology suffer from the same dead pixel problems that seem to plague the new Sony Grand Wega?
 

Derek
It could. It is afterall based on LCD. It's a QC issue.
 

Have they truely discontinued the Toshiba 57hlx82? If so, Is there a newer version to come? Finally, what is the projected cost of the Sony SXRD rear projection sets and will they have 3 chips? Thanks!
 

John Greer
Two new Toshiba LCoS models coming out soon, according to The Perfect Vision. Saleman at Best Buy told me they would have one in October. We'll see! The 57" model costs $5499 don't recall model number.
 

Anonymous
Just looked at the Sony site regarding the SXRD projector - looks nice, but $25000 nice, i dunno.
 

matt
Do any of you know anything about the Philips Cenos series? Goods, bads and all that jazz?? Do they compete at all. Also, do you feel that the HD2+ chips will make that much of a difference on the rear projections? Namely the Samsung 46? thanks
 

Simple, which has a better picture: DLP, lcos or something else? I almost bought the Samsung dlp HLN, but the Sony LCOS looked better. I am confused. To me, plasma is not worth it since it has to be replaced in 10 years. At least with the other TVs, in 10 years, I can use them as a secondary TV.

Thank you for your responses.
 

Anonymous
Purchased my grand wega KF-50WE610 on 11/22/03. As I write this there are two dead pixels on the screen. It seems that Sony makes too much of there stuff in taiwan. I won't bother using the warranty, will return for a full refund. Looks like it (KF-50WE610) will continue to have problems, so I figure why bother with the warranty. I've been having various problems with Sony products. It's a @#%$ shame, the picture looks great.

As with the Playstation it appears that Sony just can't get it right!

Let this be a warning to all. Wait till Sony sells the more units, they will eventually get it right!!!
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