VERY early planning stage for a noob
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 1 Registered: Jun-05 | I chanced across this message board while roaming the net and saw that it looks to be home to a lot of very helpful people... so I'm hoping someone might be able to help me out. I'm VERY new to the whole Home Theater thing. I don't actually plan on "upgrading" any time in the NEAR future, but do plan on it eventually. THe "plan" is to eventually get into HDTV and a receiver 5.1 surround setup. I've self-educated myself a certain amount in regards to the HDTV aspect of it, and think I'm OK there. But I have a heck of a hard time getting my head around connecting everything via a reciever. I figure the best plan of action when I DO decide to go out and get new equipment is that I shop based on what I want to do with the gear... ie. what components I have which need "access" to the receiver. But, I always end up getting very confused when I start thinking about it all, mainly because I've never actually owned a receiver setup, and don't really know what gets connected to what, in what order, what comes first, etc, etc. It's the INPUTS and OUTPUTS that confuse me. So, I was hoping that, possibly, if I explained (more or less) what I want to connect in the system, someone might be able to help me to understand what type of inputs/outputs would be needed, and in a GENERAL sense, how they would connect. I know the actual connection would depend on the actual equipment, but perhaps a general guideline could be offered... eg. connecting the cable tv audio through the receiver first, THEN to the TV, or the other way around. The components that are (or would be) present are as follows: - TV (digital cable, hopefully HD signals in the future) Ideally I would be able to choose between surround sound and simply listening via the TV speakers. - VCR Ability to again choose between TV and receiver audio would be good - DVD/CD player (if purchased a HTIB system, the DVD player may be incorporated, but let's assume for now that it's not, just in case) - Gaming consoles (at the moment I own 3 current-generation consoles... XBox, PS2, GameCube ... in the future I would guess I'd own at least 2 next-gen consoles, so let's assume I have 2 to connect). Again, IDEALLY, I could choose whether to play through the surround sound receiver or the TV speakers, but if that isn't possible, it's not the end of the world. At the moment, with my very low-end setup (2 ch. stereo speakers on an "all-in-one" stereo system, for example) I have several components connected via a manual switch box (DVD player, Gamecube, XBox, Cable TV), and it works fine, but I'd like to avoid that. Both for better convenience, but MAINLY I'd be worried about losing functionality. ie. Wouldn't want to run an XBox 360 and PS3 (when they come out) through a switch box if that means losing the HD resolution video and surround sound. So... any input would be appreciated in order to offer me a bit of an education.... on what type of system would be needed, what type of connections would be required, in order to get the most out of these systems. I also have to say that price WILL be an issue. Likely an HTIB system would be where I would looking, for affordability. Thanks in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: Paul_ohstbucksPost Number: 1310 Registered: Jan-05 | jan will fill you in on the details She's a swell expert and full of knowledge. |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 2 Registered: Jun-05 | Looking forward to whatever advice is out there. |
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Silver Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth, Dorset United Kingdom Post Number: 363 Registered: May-05 | Shawn No don't listen to this twat, has he likes calling people "communist" Hay Paul you Redneck |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 111 Registered: Jun-05 | Hmm... if you are limiting yourself to a HTiB then your pretty much gonna have to take whatever they give you. You may want to buy in inexpensive HT speaker package and put a little money into the receiver so you can just upgrade as time goes on You want a receiver with Component Video Switching, Video Conversion, assignable digital inputs and throughputs, and high quality D/A converters. You can get most of this as well as discrete IR commands for a programable remote in an entry level model to a higher end line. I personaly recommend the Denon 1905 for this at a suggested retail of $499 US. This would allow you to plug in multiple hi def / Ext. Def sources as well as regular 480i sources and view them all through one input on your tv.   http://www.usa.denon.com/catalog/products.asp?l=1&c=2#PID534 |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4157 Registered: May-04 | Gee, thanks, Paul. No pressure here. Michael's correct in that most HTIB systems are pretty limiting in terms of upgrading. The general rule is you have to discard most or all of the HTIB to move to a better system. If you think you will be owning this system for a period of ten years before you move forward to anything better, then I would shop for a HTIB based primarily on sound and with an eye toward upgradeability when the time comes. Read some of the reviews offered by eCoustics and shop around before buying anything. Make the sound the highest priority and make certain you can return anything that you get home and find it sounds different in your room. If you buy a HTIB there isn't much to tell as far as connectivity; everything is usually laid out for you the way the maufacturer sees the pieces going together. Ask the salesperson how to hook in your game systems before you make a purchase. If you can move to a system with a receiver that allows some expandability you will benefit in the long run. This is advice given while knowing the low end receivers are not much better than a typical HTIB. Buying a slightly better quality receiver on the used market and paring this with some new speakers you have chosen would be a way to save enough money and still allow good quality components into the system. There are several brands which consistently get high marks on the forum; Harman Kardon (HK) and NAD can almost always be counted on to give good sound and decent reliability. Buying a four year old receiver won't leave out many items that are important to a beginning system and can be resold for about the same amount of money in another four years. On the other hand, buying a HTIB is deciding you don't want to ever resell the system as they are worth nothing on the used market. DVD players are cheap enough to buy new and I would suggest you not buy any speakers until you have listened to them with the music you prefer. As to how all this goes together: http://www.prillaman.net/ht_info_8-wiring.html You might also want to look over this link: http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/index.shtml How'd I do, Paul? |
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Silver Member Username: ClaudermilkPost Number: 169 Registered: Sep-04 | Shawn, I know how you feel, I was there not too long ago. One thing I did that helped a lot in getting my bearings on how the receivers work is I downloaded a few manuals and read their hookup instructions until it made sense. A large part of what the receiver will od is replace that switch box you have (I used to need one of those too). For audio, I don't think you will end up using the TV speakers since the audio outs on all your sources should be going to the receiver anyway. In a nutshell, the audio & video sources will send their outputs to the receiver inputs. From the receiver the monitor output will go to your TV and the speaker outs wil go to your speakers. Set the receiver source to whatever source unit you are using & it will take care of the rest. BTW, there are some users on this forum you're best off just ignoring |
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Silver Member Username: Joe_cOakwood, Ga Post Number: 456 Registered: Mar-05 | Jan is not one of them |
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Silver Member Username: ClaudermilkPost Number: 171 Registered: Sep-04 | Definitely not! He was not one of those I was referring to. |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 3 Registered: Jun-05 | Thanks for the input all (or most ;) ). After doing a bit of window shopping I did come to the conclusion that I don't think a HTIB set is what I would want. I wasn't able to find any HTIB that had a decent number of inputs/outputs. And after reading some advice here and elsewhere, then actually going out and looking at the back of some receivers, things started to make a bit more sense. The unfortunate thing is that going the route of a standalone receiver + speakers is definitely a fair amount more $$ compared to a HTIB. But... there would be little point in me saving a couple hindred dollars, getting a HTIB, then not being able to connect my equipment to it. Another question. I THINK I understand the basic concept behind "surround sound", but could someone clarify it for me. My current DVD player can utilize an optical digital audio cable to output it's audio. If I were to use that on a receiver that can accept it, I'd get distinct 5.1 channel audio surround, right? However, what if I were to use standard analog audio cables on that same DVD player, into the same reciever. WOuld I still get surround sound... like... a "faked" surround sound? Is that involved with the difference between the different audio "formats" (Pro Logic II vs Dolby Digital/DTS) Also. For some reason I'm a bit "stuck" on being able to have the option of listening either through the TV speakers, or the receiver. (I just have a mental problem with watching the 5:00 news, or Saturday morning cartoons, through the full speaker setup) Is that a big "no no" in the Home Theater world? If so, how come? Is it difficult to set a system up with that ability? Is there a way on some recievers to have an audio out going from the receiver to the TV, so that if you want you can mute the receiver and use the TV for audio? Or would that make it so that the TV audio is always on? (that wouldn't be good either). |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4189 Registered: May-04 | Shawn - If you think either http://search.yahoo.com/bin/search?p=foghorn%20leghorn or http://www.toonopedia.com/yosemite.htm sound right through TV speakers after hearing them through a system capable of 15Hz to 58kHz response at 128dBC, then you have no business buying a HT of any type. Take my advice, you will not be listening through your TV speakers once you hear http://www.wavsite.com/sounds.asp?ID=104 through a 18" subwoofer. Surround questions get complicated and boring. The link I sent you to has tutorials on surround sound which supply the Zen version of give a man a remote and you have let him switch between DPL and DTS-EXII; give a man a tutorial on surround sound and you have given him the ability to understand why NEO 6: cinema sounds so bad: http://timefordvd.com/tutorial/index.shtml Read and you shall find your answer, Grasshopper. And what's this, "And after reading some advice here and elsewhere". Shawn, you been steppin' out on us? (http://www.geocities.com/be_alternative/coyote_vs_acme.html) "Brilliance! That's all I can say, sheer, unadulterated brilliance!" |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 4 Registered: Jun-05 | Jan, thanks again. Re: My apparently evil desire to be able to choose to listen via the TV speakers. I still don't quite get it. THere's gotta be times when you don't want/need to have so much "oomph" in your audio. Maybe the baby is sleeping in the next room. Or the Mrs. is on the phone while I'm watching Firefly. Who knows. I can appreciate the audiophiles "need" to have the best sound, all the time. But I'm not an audiophile. Are there technical reasons to not be able to choose between audio via the receiver or TV? Or is it simply about what is deemed "best" by the audio crowd (ie. doing what all the cool kids are doing :p ) Re: your lin showing various wiring diagrams... in the "Advanced Home Theater" diagram, why whould video be run from the DVD to BOTH the receiver AND the TV? Also... in the same diagram, given a similar setup... if a person had HDTV via cable where would the VCR fit? Wouldn't passing the video through the VCR result in losing the video quality? I don't recall ever seeing a VCR that has component video in and out. I assume that's what would be necessary? |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 125 Registered: Jun-05 | ok, with less melodrama and a bit more realism... (Jan, lay off the acid man, i've told you, "just because you see them dont mean they are real") Shawn, You can: A: use the volume knob on your receiver. B: still use the speakers on your tv when you want. C: realise that tv speakers will still get loud enough to wake the baby or the widow woman next door. Oh, and by the way, I LOVE LISTINING TO EAR BLEEDING CARTOONS... so piss off! Its all a matter of the hookup, just because you hook something up to be able to listen to it one way, doesn't mean you cant still hook up an alternate path to listen to it another. Hook everything up to your home theater, i dont have the specifics, so what follows is purely speculative. DVD component video 480p progressive scan into your receiver. High Def Cable box Component video 1080i hi def into your receiver. Vcr S-video into your receiver. Game console composite video into your receivers front input. Digital audio in from DVD to receiver. Digital audio in from hi def cable box into receiver. Analog audio in from Vcr to receiver Analog audio in from game to receiver. Composite video (provided your receiver does video conversion, i recommend it), out to TV _________________________________________________ Now... your HT system is hooked up, you're all good. BUT... you also want tv & dvd sound through the tv without the home theater being turned on. NP. Once you hook up the above, Run composite audio and video out from the cable box and dvd to the tv's inputs 1 and 2 on the rear. Now, again hypothetical input numbers since i dont have your exact model, but... You watch the home theater on component input (5) WHen you want to watch tv without HT you switch the tv to Input (2). When you want to watch dvd without HT you switch the tv to input (1). how simple is that? |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 5 Registered: Jun-05 | Aye. Very simple. Funny how the simplest things sometimes elude people. I had completely discounted the potential availability of empty inputs on the TV itself. I also hadn't really considered the ability to wire a single component two ways at the same time (ie. digital audio/component to receiver AND analog audio/video to TV simultaneously). Thanks. Still waiting for answers to: Re: your link showing various wiring diagrams... in the "Advanced Home Theater" diagram, why whould video be run from the DVD to BOTH the receiver AND the TV? (EDIT: If it was the video as well, it would fit into the above description Michael just gave... but it isn't... it's just the video) Also... in the same diagram, given a similar setup... if a person had HDTV via cable where would the VCR fit? Wouldn't passing the video through the VCR result in losing the video quality? I don't recall ever seeing a VCR that has component video in and out. I assume that's what would be necessary? (EDIT: In the example Michael just gave, the VCR is "out of the loop", thus unable to record, correct? ) |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 6 Registered: Jun-05 | Oh, also... --"Composite video (provided your receiver does video conversion, i recommend it)"-- I assume what this means is the ability to take in video of various formats (component, s-video, composite) and output all of them in a single format compatable with the TV? ie. So that you could plug in various components with different video capabilities, and have them all work (such as VCR via composite, combined with DVD via component). So am I to understand that not ALL receivers that have video switching capabilities are able to do such a conversion? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4200 Registered: May-04 | Shawn - I suggested the sample hook ups, I didn't draw them. So I can't give the reasons that might have been in someone else's head. If I were to run video to the TV and receiver, it would be for the purpose of using the receiver as a distribtuion point to send video to other sources such as VCR, DVR or DVD recorder. I tend to ignore the receiver in most hook ups since the quality of the video switching in most receivers is still less than what I find acceptable in terms of quality. With lower priced receivers the switching is bad to poor and will not do any sort of conversion. As the price of the receiver increases so does the flexibility and functionality of the video inputs. For the most part, the point where video switching becomes useful and not just convenient is more than I would put into a receiver. Convenience means you have the ability to push one button and route the signals wherever you wish. By that point the receiver's remote should provide macro commands which can do the same thing in most cases and still allow the direct connection to the video sources without using the receiver. Everyone has a different opinion of course, but to me most receivers above the low to mid priced products are a collection of buttons, lights, switches and features that are fairly worthless and only add to the complexity of operation and the cost. |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 130 Registered: Jun-05 | Nay, the video conversion feature is available in almost no HTiB's atm, the feature was this years model on most of your middle to upper brands Entry level receivers for the first time. As for my most unfortunate typo (quote) when i wrote "Composite video (provided your receiver...)" I actually meant Component video, not composite. and yes, Video conversion, upscaling, upconversion (called different things by different brands), is, by a long shot, not available on all units. It is in fact available only on the base units of high priced brands, and middle to upper units of medium priced brands atm. Addressing Jan's comment regarding the quality of video switching, that holds true on the middle to lower end brands of receivers, look for a company that started with D/A processing and moved into amps to counter this, As before i will recommend the Denon 1905, same D/A converter as thier $5800 dvd player. Regarding the VCR: In a receiver like the denon 1905, or any similar, the VCR input is adjacent to the record loop output. Right next to where you plug video and audio from the vcr into the receiver, you can plug a loop out to its input. From this loop your vcr will receive audio and video from any source you currently have selected on the receiver. You can also run an RF loop (coaxial cable) (cablevison thread on type) out of your hi def cable box into the vcr, so you can set it up to record a specific channel, (or use VCR+ codes) to record the channel while away from home without the system being on. |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 7 Registered: Jun-05 | Jan: Re: The wiring diagram and the DVD... I realize you didn't make the drawings, I was just wondering if there was an obvious reason why someone would do that. Thanks for the suggestions. Re: "ignoring the receiver" due to video quality degredation... so you are connecting the video (component I assume) directly to inputs on the TV, and the audio to the receiver? --"In a receiver like the denon 1905, or any similar, the VCR input is adjacent to the record loop output. Right next to where you plug video and audio from the vcr into the receiver, you can plug a loop out to its input. From this loop your vcr will receive audio and video from any source you currently have selected on the receiver. "-- Ahhh... I see. I did not know that. Makes sense, I'll know now to look out for that feature. Re: video upscaling (or whatever term :p ) ... for lower-end receivers, I've seen many will accept composite, s-video, or component in various combinations in the various inputs, along with, say, a component video output to the monitor. If these lower-end receivers aren't able to convert the video, what is happening to the various forms of video input? I'm assuming that even on these lower-end receivers you are able to "mix and match" various video inputs (such as component from DVD and HDTV, composite from VCR, s-video from game console, etc)... if I had all those plugged INto a receiver that doesn't convert, what would be sent OUT of the receiver through the component video cables? |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 132 Registered: Jun-05 | Most of these you see have component video switching, not conversion, meaning you have to run both a component cable out to the tv AND a composite cable and switch inputs on the tv depending on whether what you are watching is being fed into the receiver on component or composite. Thats why video conversion is such a nice feature, you're not constantly having to switch inputs on the tv. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 4202 Registered: May-04 | Shawn - "Re: "ignoring the receiver" due to video quality degredation... so you are connecting the video (component I assume) directly to inputs on the TV, and the audio to the receiver?" You are correct. In my own HT system I have a HD satellite system which sends component video directly to the TV's Video 1 input. The VCR is connected to the TV via a composite cable to Video 2. The DVD player is into the TV's Video 3 connection by way of component cables. Video 4 has a composite cable from the receiver exclusively for the menu operations of the receiver which require a TV monitor for set up. A cable is run from the TV audio out to the receiver in case I need to use the TV's tuner for anything. The outdoor antenna is into Antenna A in case of an outage from the satellite during a storm (only used to check whether the local broadcasters are telling me to take cover) and also fed to the satellite box for local HD programming. (Just for clarity, both satellite and antenna come in through a substantial surge protector. This is an indispensable piece of equipment.) All audio inputs from these sources are run directly to the receiver/processor. My TV allows me to turn off the inputs I don't use so, all total, as I switch between inputs I toggle only through (3) inputs I have designated to be live connections (SAT/VCR/DVD). I use a universal remote which allows three macro settings. Macro settings are combined commands that operate in sequence at the push of one button. They are programmed to be any sequence the operator desires. The remote cost me $49. The first macro switches on the TV; switches the TV to Video 1 (satellite); switches the receiver to satellite input for audio; takes the receiver off mute (my receiver stays on 24/7 unless there is a storm) and finally places the remote in a position to direct commands to the satellite receiver. I am watching and listening to satellite programming with the ability to change channels. The remote's volume control for the receiver is on an override ("punch through") so it will always adjust volume even when the remote is set to satellite or DVD. Pushing this button again turns off the TV and returns the receiver to mute. This works because the TV power and receiver mute functions are the same electronic command to toggle on or off. The next macro button toggles through the inputs on the TV until it reaches Video 3 (DVD); sets the receiver to DVD audio in and sets the remote to DVD commands. The final macro goes back to satellite functions on the TV, receiver and remote. Since I hardly ever use the VCR any longer, these three macros do what I actually need 99.9% of the time. If I had two more macro commands, I would set them for switching for the VCR. I don't have them but also don't miss them. That's how I have my system connected. In other systems I've done otherwise. As HT systems become more complicated, the ways to connect the systems also increase. If I feel a client requires a simpler or more complex system connection, I'll run video through the receiver if it doesn't compromise the video quality. Part of your desire to learn the multiple methods to make a system go together will be thwarted by the multiple ways a system can go together. As an installer I have to know the equipment and the customer's usage. Then I plot the best method to get from point A to point B. Though it's an over simplification, no two systems go together exactly the same because no two clients have exactly the same situation. Audio and video loops are available on every receiver to use as directional road maps. Switching audio is fairly basic and any receiver can manage that function. Switching video is far more complicated for many reasons and not all receivers can manage the job well. To make matters worse, the industry is constantly introducing new connection points (HDMI, composite, optical, digital, etc.) which allow the manufacturer to market new features. In some systems these features allow a simplified connection through a minimum of cabling. In other systems the amount of connections increases (needlessly in my opinion). I prefer the simplest, most direct route for all the signals. Whether that is accomplished through HDMI or a composite cable to the TV is a matter of what system I am connecting. I would suggest you plan out the amount of ins and outs you think your system will contain in the next five years. Look for a receiver which can handle that plus one. By the time that receiver no longer fits the bill, you will be readly for the new features the industry has planned for tomorrow. |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 8 Registered: Jun-05 | You guys have been great! Thanks for your patience. Jan, your latest post was very informative... I sometimes can understand things better if given "real world" examples, and yours did it wonderfully. Michael: Re: "...meaning you have to run both a component cable out to the tv AND a composite cable and switch inputs on the tv depending on whether what you are watching is being fed into the receiver on component or composite. " Hmm. I can see why video conversion is such a great feature. Say a person had a DVD and cable TV each with component video going to the receiver. And a gaming console with s-video going to the receiver. And a VCR with composite going to the receiver. Am I understanding correctly that if the receiver was NOT capable of video conversion, that person would have to run component video out from the receiver to (for example) the TV's Video 1 input... and run s-video or composite out from the receiver to the TV's Video 2? [seems to me that most receivers I've looked at only have the two video outs (one component, one composite/s-video)] And then the receiver would "decide" for itself which video output to use, based on what it is getting sent through it? So in this case, the DVD and cable TV (component video) would automatically be "routed" by the receiver to the TV's input 1, while the VCR (composite input) and gaming console (s-video input) would be routed by the receiver to the TV's input 2? Meanwhile, I would have to manually tell the TV which video input to watch. I understand that I may be better off wiring the video sources directly to the TV, but I'm just trying to understand this other way (not to mention the TV likely may not have enough video inputs for all of those components) |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 134 Registered: Jun-05 | aye, you are correct, you would have to manualy switch inputs on the tv without the video conversion. With the video conversion, all sources would come out of the component video output. Another plus is that you can run multiple extended definition sources to one input, say your hi def sat box and your progressive scan dvd, and the tv will sense and format to whatever you are sending it without having to have a second component video input used on the TV. |
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New member Username: MothmanPost Number: 9 Registered: Jun-05 | Isn't your last paragraph the same issue? DIfferent video formats going into the Receiver, which is converting it to a single format? One thing I hadn't considered however, is that the DVD may be different from the hi def sat/cable in regards to the video format. |
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Silver Member Username: DaedilusPost Number: 140 Registered: Jun-05 | Yes, it is, your DVD is putting out Progressinve Scan 480p Your Cable box is putting out Hi Def 1080i The amp will pass whatever "Native" component video format is sent to it, in addition it will take in non component sources, such as NTSC 480i from your VCR and game cube, and convert them to a 16:9 aspect ratio (meaning it will stretch them to fit the screen), and send them out to your tv using the same component video cable. My main point is showing the tv is auto sensing the format coming to it from the receiver. All of your programs can be viewed in the correct format using one cable, without having to pay for the added cost of that second component video input being located on the tv, or the madness from swapping aspect ratios constantly while changing between sources. |
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Yosemite Sam Unregistered guest | Hey Mothman - if I lit this match... and threw it in the oven...... you might rabbit you might.. Cut...bring in the double. Color code the cables and jam them into the box.. if that doesn't work ... call Tweeter Etc and pay 25K like I did to wire it for you... ...now back to lurking |
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