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Int amp, speakers and static - HELP!

 

Bronze Member
Username: Danonc

Post Number: 32
Registered: Oct-07
Hey all,

I have slowly been my system over the past few years and it currently consists of a Rega P5, Dynavector 10x5 (about 50 hours on it), a Heed Quasar phono stage, Rotel 1062 int amp and B&W 685 speakers. It's all cabled with good van Den Hull cables. My question is which to replace first, the Rotel or the B&Ws. I don't want to spend over $3500 for both speakers and an int amp but want to make sure that my investment results in a large sonic improvement.

My musical tastes range from small jazz groups to experimental rock, bluegrass and acoustic swing. I do use my system a lot to transcribe music for guitar and mandolin. So, tonality and timbre are paramount, as are PRaT.

I have spent the past few weeks experimenting with speaker placement, based on several websites (The WASP method, Cardas, etc) and think I have come up with a placement that is good as it is going to get. Same goes with cartridge alignment.

Oh, I am humidifying but static on my vinyl is a nuisance. How do folks deal with this?

Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

Dan J
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17657
Registered: May-04
.

Make the most of what you own before you begin buying new gear which will face the same limitations; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/672623.html


Static charges on LP's are at their worst during the winter months due to the dryness created by typical heating systems. IMO your best solution is a record cleaning system. A diy system exists in the archives of the "phono" section of the forum. Buying a VPI or similar is a worthwhile investment if you have a large LP collection. Keep your stylus clean and use rice paper sleeves for your LP's.

I do not recommend using a record cleaning brush when static charges are high. The dust and grime simply clings to the brush and you move dirt from one LP to the next. Use a well squeezed out microfibre towel instead and change its position regularly. If you're using the Rega felt mat, IMO, this will add static electric charges to your playback. Some people disagree with that last comment. Still, you can do better than the OEM mat.



.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 135
Registered: Dec-12
One of the myriad problems with LPs is static. This is why I got rid of my LPs ages ago. LPs suck.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2068
Registered: Oct-10
"One of the myriad problems with LPs is static. This is why I got rid of my LPs ages ago. LPs suck."

I can't believe Jan hasn't responded to this comment!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 167
Registered: Dec-12
Because it's true. Records suck.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2081
Registered: Oct-10
As far sound quality goes, whether a record or CD sounds better depends mostly on the album and partially on the system, at least for me. Either way, the differences are not all that great. I prefer CDs and CD players over records and turntables for numerous reasons. However, none of this has to do with my comment.

"Records suck!" Is not the kind of statement that Jan normally lets slide, trust me. Last time I made a comment that even hinted in that direction, the Battle Royale was on! So naturally, I was expecting a very looooooooooong response to your comment (you know the kind). I guess that's not going to happen here.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17712
Registered: May-04
.


Trying to teach a pig to sing only frustrates you and does nothing for the pig.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2082
Registered: Oct-10
You could take a lesson from your own words Jan. It's been impossible so far, to teach you to only help people who want your help. I for one don't want any help from you regardless of your knowledge. I don't care for your style of answering questions, especially when the answer has nothing to do with the question. EG: I once asked you if using tube rectification with transistors would give a transistor amp a more tube like sound. If the answer was "yes", Yes followed by a brief explanation would've been in order. If it was "no", No followed by a brief explanation and if you didn't know, just say, "I don't know." Instead, you start out with, "I don't know of anyone who would do that." Followed by a bunch of utter non-sense that had nothing to do with the question. I didn't ask you if you knew of anyone who would do that, nor do I care. That has nothing to do with the question. I got the answer from another source. There are plenty of people here you who like you and want your help Jan and there are newbies stopping by on a regular basis. Why don't you just stick to help those people and leave those of us who don't like you alone. Why is this such a difficult concept? Do you wish to continue being the pig who can't learn to sing, or would you like to show us that you still have the capacity to learn something?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17714
Registered: May-04
.


Trying to teach a pig to sing only frustrates you and does nothing for the pig.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 168
Registered: Dec-12
But records DO suck:

Scratches, non-fill, inner groove distortion, warp, eccentricity, etc.

If records could be made of something other than vinyl, something that could not be easily scratched or broken (glass, titanium, etc), they might be better. Vinyl has been used because it is cheap, not because it is good.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2083
Registered: Oct-10
"Trying to teach a pig to sing only frustrates you and does nothing for the pig."

Again, take a lesson from your own words Jan.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2085
Registered: Oct-10
Ornello

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 168
Registered: Dec-12


Ornello posted on Tuesday, February 12, 2013 - 15:12 GMT

But records DO suck:

Scratches, non-fill, inner groove distortion, warp, eccentricity, etc.

If records could be made of something other than vinyl, something that could not be easily scratched or broken (glass, titanium, etc), they might be better. Vinyl has been used because it is cheap, not because it is good.

I agree that records have many draw backs as do turntables. However, some folks just like 'em and they are not switching to CDs any time soon.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17717
Registered: May-04
.


ROTFLMAO!!!


Hint, guys ...the op hasn't checked back in weeks. Nobody cares other than you two. You're all just spitting on each other's shoes for the sake of spitting. What a f*ing waste of time you two are!







.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 171
Registered: Dec-12
Do you think I care?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2086
Registered: Oct-10
"ROTFLMAO!!!


Hint, guys ...the op hasn't checked back in weeks. Nobody cares other than you two. You're all just spitting on each other's shoes for the sake of spitting. What a f*ing waste of time you two are!"


But you keep posting here Jan. What does that say about you? NOT MUCH!

TALK ABOUT ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Danonc

Post Number: 33
Registered: Oct-07
No, I have checked back, hoping that someone would offer some real advice (other than Jan's, which was good advice). But I haven't commented on the current string of posts. I was hoping this wouldn't turn into yet another argument between Jan and a few others. So please, if you have some real advice, I would really appreciate it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 173
Registered: Dec-12
I do. Get rid of records. It's not what you want to hear, perhaps, but it's good advice.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2089
Registered: Oct-10
Ornello, I would highly recommend you stop bashing records. You hate them and that's okay, but telling everyone who likes records that records suck will only turn people against you.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Danonc

Post Number: 34
Registered: Oct-07
What the heck is wrong with you Ornello? Are you bored or just trying to be a troll? I am asking for real advice, and I like records. Please quit being an idiotic douchebag and stop posting on this thread. You are making Jan look like a forum saint.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 175
Registered: Dec-12
Dan:

I can't help it if you like records, but they suck despite your fondness for them.

What's 'wrong' with me is that I am objective and perceptive.

I had more records and spent more time with records than you ever will. I owned about 1200 LPs at the end, and I could not wait to get rid of the damned things.

They suck! get a good CD player and enjoy music!

Your emotions do not change the facts of the matter, and the fact is that records suck! Stop acting like a child, and stop thinking that wishing something makes it come true.

Do you want to go through life with people telling you only what you want to hear? Do you think you will ever learn anything that way?

You asked for help, and I'm giving you help. Dump the damned records.

Stomping your feet and holding your breath till you turn blue won't change the fact that records suck.

Ornello the Wise
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16732
Registered: Jan-08
Ornello

Please take a sound generator then tell me the highest frequency you can hear and come back and I will tell you that for your old age you can't hear some high frequencies that we can get on a vinyl!!!

For sure the CD is much better than at the first start but the vinyl is again the reference for many of us, not so pratical and cheap as the CD but musical!

A+
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1550
Registered: Jul-07
Ignore Ornello folks. He only seeks to bestow his wisdom on us all, not to engage in any meaningful discussion. He's a Troll looking for attention. His opinions are all facts in his mind, and not subject to re-evaluation. Records suck, tube amps suck, 2-way speakers suck, etc,etc. These are all facts that we simply haven't come to grips with cuz it's not what we want to hear. Hopefully we all don't reach the same stage of enlightenment as Ornello.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 176
Registered: Dec-12
My hearing is excellent, fantastic, unlike many Baby Boomers whose hearing has been destroyed by loud music and concerts.

There is nothing 'magical' about 'vinyl'.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

See this part:

Shortcomings

At the time of the introduction of the compact disc (CD) in the mid-1980s, the stereo LP pressed in vinyl was at the high point of its development. Still, it continues to suffer from a variety of limitations:

The stereo image is not made up of fully discrete Left and Right channels; each channel's signal coming out of the magnetic cartridge contains approximately 20% of the signal from the other channel. The lack of pure channel separation makes for a sense of diminished soundstage.


LP pre echo
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The empty space before the start of the music has been amplified +15dB to reveal the pre-echo.
Problems listening to this file? See media help.

Thin, closely spaced spiral grooves that allow for increased playing time on a 33â…" rpm microgroove LP lead to a tinny pre-echo warning of upcoming loud sounds. The cutting stylus unavoidably transfers some of the subsequent groove wall's impulse signal into the previous groove wall. It is discernible by some listeners throughout certain recordings but a quiet passage followed by a loud sound will allow anyone to hear a faint pre-echo of the loud sound occurring 1.8 seconds ahead of time.[53] This problem can also appear as "post"-echo, with a tinny ghost of the sound arriving 1.8 seconds after its main impulse.
Fidelity steadily drops as playback progresses; there is more vinyl per second available for fine reproduction of high frequencies at the large-diameter beginning of the groove than at the smaller-diameter end closest to the center. The beginning of the groove on an LP gives 510 mm of vinyl per second traveling past the stylus while the ending of the groove gives 200â€"210 mm of vinyl per second â€" less than half the linear resolution.[54]
Factory problems involving incomplete hot vinyl flow within the stamper can fail to accurately recreate a small section of one side of the groove, a problem called non-fill. It usually appears on the first item on a side if present at all. Non-fill makes itself known as a tearing, grating or ripping sound.
Poor vinyl quality control can put bits of foreign material in the path of the stylus, creating a permanent "pop" or "tick".
The user setting the stylus down in the middle of a recording can cut into the groove and create a permanent "pop" or "tick".
If the needle has been "scrubbed" on a particular part of the record (repeatedly playing a short portion for cueing purposes or for "scratching") a permanent increase in noise will occur at that spot. If this happens at the beginning of the track, it is called "cue burn."
Dust or foreign matter collects on the record, making for multiple "pops" and "ticks" if not carefully cleaned.
A static electric charge can build up on the surface of the spinning record and discharge into the stylus, making a loud "pop". In very dry climates, this can happen several times per minute. Subsequent plays of the same record does not have pops in the same places in the music as the static buildup isn't tied to variations in the groove.
An off-center stamping will apply a slow 0.56 Hz modulation to the playback, affecting pitch due to the modulating speed that the groove runs under the stylus. The effect becomes gradually more acute during playback as the stylus moves closer to the centre of the record. It also affects tonality because the stylus is pressed alternately against one groove wall and then the other, making the frequency response change in each channel. This problem is often called "wow," though turntable and motor problems can also cause pitch-only "wow."
Motor problems or belt slippage can cause momentary pitch changes. If these repeat regularly, they may be called "flutter"; if they happen slowly they may be called "wow".
Turntable surface slickness, or the slickness of a stack of LPs can allow the top record to slip, causing momentary lowering of pitch in the playback.
Tracking force of the stylus is not always the same from beginning to end of the groove. Stereo balance can shift as the recording progressed.
Outside electrical interference may be amplified by the magnetic cartridge. Common household wallplate SCR dimmers sharing AC lines may put noise into the playback, as can poorly shielded electronics and strong radio transmitters.
Loud sounds in the environment may be transmitted mechanically from the turntable's sympathetic vibration into the stylus. Heavy footfalls can bounce the needle out of the groove.
Heat can warp the disk, causing pitch and tone problems if minor; tracking problems if major. Badly warped records will be rendered unplayable.
Because of a slight slope in the lead-in groove, it is possible for the stylus to skip ahead several grooves when settling into position at the start of the recording.
The LP is delicate. Any accidental fumbling with the stylus or dropping of the record onto a sharp corner can scratch the record permanently, creating a series of "ticks" and "pops" heard at subsequent playback. Heavier accidents can cause the stylus to break through the groove wall as it plays, creating a permanent skip that will cause the stylus to either skip ahead to the next groove or skip back to the previous groove. A skip going to the previous groove is called a broken record; the same section of 1.8 seconds of LP (1.3 if 45 rpm) music will repeat over and over until the stylus is lifted off the record. It is also possible to put a slight pressure on the headshell causing the stylus to stay in the desired groove, without having a playback break. This requires some skill, but is of great use when for instance digitizing a recording, as no information is skipped.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2090
Registered: Oct-10




Ornello posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 02:11 GMT

"Dan:

I can't help it if you like records, but they suck despite your fondness for them.

What's 'wrong' with me is that I am objective and perceptive.

I had more records and spent more time with records than you ever will. I owned about 1200 LPs at the end, and I could not wait to get rid of the damned things.

They suck! get a good CD player and enjoy music!

Your emotions do not change the facts of the matter, and the fact is that records suck! Stop acting like a child, and stop thinking that wishing something makes it come true.

Do you want to go through life with people telling you only what you want to hear? Do you think you will ever learn anything that way?

You asked for help, and I'm giving you help. Dump the damned records.

Stomping your feet and holding your breath till you turn blue won't change the fact that records suck.

Ornello the Wise"



Plymouth posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 07:18 GMT

"Ornello

Please take a sound generator then tell me the highest frequency you can hear and come back and I will tell you that for your old age you can't hear some high frequencies that we can get on a vinyl!!!

For sure the CD is much better than at the first start but the vinyl is again the reference for many of us, not so pratical and cheap as the CD but musical!"

A


Hawkbilly posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 10:07 GMT

"Ignore Ornello folks. He only seeks to bestow his wisdom on us all, not to engage in any meaningful discussion. He's a Troll looking for attention. His opinions are all facts in his mind, and not subject to re-evaluation. Records suck, tube amps suck, 2-way speakers suck, etc,etc. These are all facts that we simply haven't come to grips with cuz it's not what we want to hear. Hopefully we all don't reach the same stage of enlightenment as Ornello."


Ornello, "Records, tubes and 2 way speakers suck." are just YOUR opinions, not facts and none of us agree with you. We have and are entitled to our own opinions. I like my 2 way speakers MUCH, MUCH better than any 3 ways I've ever heard, at least in my price range. If I ever have the funds to upgrade to a high end system, a tube preamp and MOSFET (class D) power amp are one of the routes I would consider. Many people I speak to use this combo and are very pleased with it. As for records, I don't imagine I'll ever go back to them myself, but record lovers enjoy them. You have no right to tell them that they can't or try to twist their arms onto dumping records. Again, if you do a google search on "CD sales", there are numerous websites that talk about CD sale decline. I hate to see them go, but CDs are on their way out as of now and the record may very well be the last physical media left for music. Also again, the best way to help anyone is to give them advice on what he/she wants to do, NOT on what you think he/she should do. Otherwise, to each his own. Right now, Plymouth and I are the only 2 members here who like you. I can't speak for Plym, but keep bashing records, tubes and 2 way speakers and you won't even have me on your side. So try to listen and let listen, okay?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 177
Registered: Dec-12
I used to own a Sony TA-N88B power amp, an early Class D amp. It was wonderful-sounding, but it kept failing, so I had to get rid of it.

If someone complains about problems inherent in records, all I can do is point out that those problems are inherent to records.

I have listened to tube amps, records, and two-way speakers. I used to own two-way speakers and lots of records. I know their weaknesses intimately.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2091
Registered: Oct-10
"My hearing is excellent, fantastic, unlike many Baby Boomers whose hearing has been destroyed by loud music and concerts.

There is nothing 'magical' about 'vinyl'."


Ornello! Cut it out already, will ya?

Seriously man, I mean I am not well liked around here for not getting along with Jan. You on the other hand, you're really trying to just p*ss everyone off just because some members like records, 2 ways and tubes and you don't? You need to grow up Ornello.

Btw, hearing loss is not just related to damage done by loud music or other loud sounds. Most men lose our ability to hear higher frequency sounds as we age. That's just how it is.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 178
Registered: Dec-12
Well I do think my hearing is quite good, as I can hear things quite clearly that others cannot, for instance what people are saying at another table in a crowded restaurant.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2092
Registered: Oct-10
"If someone complains about problems inherent in records, all I can do is point out that those problems are inherent to records."

Then, why not just do that, instead of bashing records and telling people to dump them? There IS a difference you know?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2093
Registered: Oct-10
"Well I do think my hearing is quite good, as I can hear things quite clearly that others cannot, for instance what people are saying at another table in a crowded restaurant."

That's fine. I was just pointing out that Plym was addressing the age thing and not the loud noise damage when it comes to hearing loss.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 179
Registered: Dec-12
The origin of the myth that 'records sound better than CDs' lies in the fact that early CDs were re-releases of very popular recordings, whose tapes were worn (Billy Joel, Genesis, Simon and Garfunkel, Dire Straits, et al.). They used masters that had been used for LPs. These tapes were worn, and were copies of copies of copies. The CDs in such cases sounded thin and distorted. Also, early CD mastering equipment had not achieved the state of perfection it has today.

Remastering is a useful tool to try to restore the original sound, and in some cases it is very successful. The Dire Straits remasters sound great, noticeably better than the original CD issues, and far better than the LPs ever did.

I recently acquired a few remastered CDs of Pentangle, David Sylvian, and a few others. The sound quality is breathtaking.

If you want to hear a spectacular CD, listen to Paul Simon's You're the One.

I have a remaster CD of Surrealistic Pillow, which definitely shows its age (1967). Despite the efforts of the RCA engineers, they have not been able to make this recording sound pristine. The tapes are just too old and worn.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17720
Registered: May-04
.

"If I ever have the funds to upgrade to a high end system, a tube preamp and MOSFET (class D) power amp are one of the routes"




MOSFet's aren't class D and class D seldom uses MOSFet's today, no matter what Wikipedia says. Class D is defined by the switching rate of the devices, nothing more. Same as all the other classes of operation, it's all about how the devices switch or don't switch.



The Sony used V-Fets which, as far as I know, no one ever tried again and no one gives a crap about today.




Back at it, boys. I'm headed out for some popcorn. Anybody want some?








.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 180
Registered: Dec-12
No, Jan:

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-TA-N88B.html
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2094
Registered: Oct-10
"MOSFet's aren't class D and class D seldom uses MOSFet's today, no matter what Wikipedia says. Class D is defined by the switching rate of the devices, nothing more. Same as all the other classes of operation, it's all about how the devices switch or don't switch."

So then, MOSFET amps could be class A, B or AB?

"I'm headed out for some popcorn. Anybody want some?"

Sure, Thanks Jan!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2095
Registered: Oct-10
Ornello, did you even look at your own link? It proves Jan right, not you. They talk about V-FETs, not MOSFETs in that Sony amp.

"The origin of the myth that 'records sound better than CDs' lies in the fact that early CDs were re-releases of very popular recordings, whose tapes were worn (Billy Joel, Genesis, Simon and Garfunkel, Dire Straits, et al.). They used masters that had been used for LPs. These tapes were worn, and were copies of copies of copies. The CDs in such cases sounded thin and distorted. Also, early CD mastering equipment had not achieved the state of perfection it has today."

Okay, but the point still remains: There are people who like records better than CDs and there are people who keep records because the albums never made it to CD and nobody wants to be told, "Your medium is crap." or "Your choice of amp is crap." or "Your choice of speakers is crap." Okay? That is what I am trying to bring accross to you. I invited you to join another forum, but now I would advise against joining that one. If you go there telling people that records, 2 way speakers or tubes are crap, you'll be banned in a heartbeat. Trust me.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2096
Registered: Oct-10
The bottomline here "Ornello the wise", is that people who like records, like them. The op, Dan, wants to listen to records and wants advice on doing so in way that'll give him satisfaction as does Newbie32, who posted in the amp section. Telling them, "Dump your records and turntable and get a CD player and CDs." is certainly not the answer they're looking for. If you can't offer these guys any advice that will help them reach their goal, then kindly bow out of this thread as well as any other turntable/record, 2 way speaker or tube related threads, okay? You'll be doing yourself and everyone else a HUGE favor. There are plenty of CD/CD player, 3 speaker and solid state amp threads for you to participate in.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 181
Registered: Dec-12
As I said, I don't just tell people what they want to hear. I am not a demagogue.

'Dump the records and get CDs and a CD player' is in fact what he should do.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2097
Registered: Oct-10
"As I said, I don't just tell people what they want to hear. I am not a demagogue."

So something as essentially frivolous as prefering records over CDs is something to get zealously evangelical about in your opinion? Why? It may very well be that Dan and Newbie have both compared numerous albums on CD and record and like the sound of records better. How do you think your preference for CDs automatically has to become their preference? If a person prefers this medium over that one, just let it be for crying out loud! Go give a person seeking CD related advice some help, okay?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2098
Registered: Oct-10
I don't know what country you live in "Ornello the wise", but I live in The United States of America. It's a free country. We enjoy freedom or religion, the right to bare or not bare arms and the right to listen to music on records, CDs, cassettes, 8-tracks, reel to reel, MP3/iPods and any other past or present format that there ever was or might be. We don't need you to come along and appoint yourself as "The Media Police". That just doesn't fly okay? If anyone here wants to listen to records, just let that person do so! I mean, what the heck does it matter to you how other folks get their tunes? Does it really screw up your day if someone else is enjoying music on records? Does that hurt you in any way? Does it take food off of your table? Again, just listen and let listen already and quit being the self righteous, self appointed dictator of musical media RIGHT THE F*** NOW!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 182
Registered: Dec-12
But there is little or nothing that can be done to help. Records have static, among other problems. The BEST advice is to get away from records.

And one certainly has the right to be wrong. But I do not have to accept those mistaken beliefs, however strongly people may cling to them. Photographers hold many mistaken beliefs: that you can push film, that the 'sharpest' lens is the best, etc.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2099
Registered: Oct-10
Well, I already have 2 way speakers, so I think at this point I am going to risk what ever kind of response I might get from Jan and ask him which turntable, tone arm, cartridge and needle he thinks would work best with a Denon DRA-397, Mirage Omnisats and a Mirage OS8 subwoofer, then go buy me some records! Then, I'll see what he recommends in the way of a tube amp if I should come into an unexpected windfall.

 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 183
Registered: Dec-12
Well good for you!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2100
Registered: Oct-10
"As I said, I don't just tell people what they want to hear. I am not a demagogue."

When discussing religion, which I won't do in an online audio forum, I don't tell people what they want to hear. It matters then. Even in audio, I wouldn't tell anyone that sticking your hand in a live amp is safe just because he/she wishes it were. However, whether you listen to music on records or CD, through SS, tube or hybrid amps or single driver, 2 way, 3way, 4 way or 85.77236798 way speakers has no baring on where or how happily you spend eternity. For that matter, outside of how much or how little you enjoy your music, it has little to do with your satisfaction in this life. If a person prefers records or something else that's not to your liking, just let them have their thing and you have your thing and enjoy. Then, you'll get along with people. Otherwise, this forum will be a lonely place for you (Hark! Do I hear the sound of wind blowing accross the barren plane where "Ornello the wise" lives?). Whether records or CDs sound better is a matter of opinion and nothing more. Yes, records do have issues. First off, record fans are well aware of those issues and are willing to deal with them. For that matter, CDs are not perfect either. They can be scatched and broken, etc. You just need to ack off and let each person listen to music as he/she pleases. Fair enough?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17721
Registered: May-04
.

You don't want any popcorn, orne? No problem, more for the rest of us.



Yep, the Sony amp used V-Fets. I sold one or two. They weren't all that good, just not typical bipolar sound is all. They virtually all blew up because they weren't well suited to the application of a switching type amplifier. Ahead of its time maybe, but dead today. MOSFets are faster than bipolars and V-Fets (Vertical field effect transistors) were somewhat faster than MOSFets. Sony claimed they had done away with the "FET haze" common to these devices. They didn't. BUT they didn't sound like a typical bipolar transistor amp of the day. That made then unique and that made, and for some folks still makes, them interesting.

Fet's (field effect transistors) were typically described as devices which made a solid state amp "sound like" a tube amp. Despite the fact that for the previous decade the amp builders had told us tubes were obsolete, many amp builders now wanted us to think their solid state amps "sounded like" tubes. It ended up Fet's sounded like Fet's - until they blew up. Then they sounded like all the other bad solid state.



Chip amps are what are commonly used for full range class D operation today; http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/class-d/

"Chip amps" more or less began with Darlington pairs used as a chip (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/circuits/transistor/darlington-pair-amplif ier.php and marketed by Kenwood in the mid'70's. Their amps with Darlington pairs were introduced about the time of the Sony V-Fets, and, once the V-Fet's proved unreliable in the application, chip type Darlington pairs successfully replaced most other output devices when it came to manufacturing cheap, high wattage audio amplifiers. They're still in use today and many of the low cost receivers on the market will have Darlington pairs.

With the exception of a few bandwidth limited subwoofer plate amplifiers with fairly high wattage output, most class D amplifiers are using chips for their output devices today. Their fullwave signal operation is what defines them as class D - in other words, the switching function of the circuit. Classes of operation are defined by how the output devices either switch on and off or do not switch at all. That's all "classes" amount to.

Class D, while still relegated largely to subwoofer use due to the high speed, high frequency switching noises created by the power supply, is the basis for amplifiers from Channel Island (http://positive-feedback.com/Issue18/ciavmb1.htm, B&O (ICE modules; http://www.icepower.bang-olufsen.com/) and PS Audio (who used the B&O modules).

The diy favorite Gainclone (http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/123255-beginners-gainclone-hifi-lm1875- amplifier-board.html is a chip (module) amp which has a very good reputation for fidelity despite its fairly low power output. The similarly low powered Tripath chip amplifiers (http://store.virtueaudio.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=27) are operating in a variation of class D operation. http://tnt-audio.com/ampli/virtue_sensation_e.html

Due to the switching technique of a class D amp, they are currently the most efficient gain systems, reaching as much as 90% efficiency. A class D/T amp is cheap and small; http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/t-amp_e.html


This high efficiency makes many of the full range class D/T amps in use today capable of running off 12VDC from a battery pack. I have two such amps in my room right now. (http://www.tbisound.com/dsp_products_millenia.asp) Both are running off a 12VDC SLA battery.

This efficiency of operation with low voltage power supplies also makes them prime candicates for car systems.



But MOSFet's are not automatically class D amps, most actually run in a typical class AB configuration; http://www.bkcomp.com/products/amplifiers/

Class D amps are most likely to use a chip today.

And I know of no one who cares about V-Fets today.



Now, what does any of this have to to with Dan's original post?







.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 184
Registered: Dec-12
Somebody mentioned Class D amps, and I used to have the Sony TA-N88B, which is a kind of Class D amp.

I listened to several amps before buying that one, but it kept blowing up. It sounded better than anything else I had heard at that time in the $500-$800 price range (Hafler, H-K, PS Audio, etc.).

After that I bought a used Sony TA-8550, V-FET amp (100 wpc) but eventually sold it and bought the Denon POA-1500 which I still am using.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2101
Registered: Oct-10
"And I know of no one who cares about V-Fets today."

Ornello seems to care about V-FETS!

Thanks for the info Jan. I thought class D and MOSFET were sinonimos. Thanks for clearing that up.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 185
Registered: Dec-12
Care about V-FETs? Huh? What do you mean?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2102
Registered: Oct-10
"Care about V-FETs? Huh? What do you mean?"

What do you think I mean?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16733
Registered: Jan-08
Ornello


I doubt of you now with your so called reference like Yamaha and Sony, those Cie are not in the vocabular of Hi-fi acording to my own opinion!

Don't forget to test your ears to know which frequency you are able to get!

Sorry!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 186
Registered: Dec-12
My system is outstanding: CD player (Sony ES) + power amp (Denon POA-1500) + Yamaha NS-1000M speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2103
Registered: Oct-10
Honestly Plym? I'd bet he thinks his system sounds better than a system that consists of McIntosch, B&K, Avant Garde and other high end gear and that because it sounds better to him, by law, it HAS to sound better to everyone else on the entire planet.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16734
Registered: Jan-08
The Denon is not a reference for me with those spec:
150 WPC @ 8 ohms, 220 @ 4 ohms, 300 @ 2 ohms!

The lack of the power supply is the problem, for me the power @ 4 ohms must be near the 300 watts not 2 ohms!

This amp fail to control the woofer especially with the lack of good resonant chamber of the enclosure to be neutral!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Plymouth

Canada

Post Number: 16735
Registered: Jan-08
Yes Super!


I fairly doubt of his ears problem espacially if he can not hear the difference between Cd and Vinyl then can not understand why the vinyl is again the reference, the CD cutting the subtle details!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2104
Registered: Oct-10
I agree Plym. I am quite fond of my Denon receiver, but the power should double when the impedence is cut as you say. 150 wpc into 8 ohms should equal 300 into 4 ohms and 600 into ohms. Otherwise, the power supply, the transformer in particular is not adequet.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 187
Registered: Dec-12
I don't need more power at 2 ohms, as the speakers are 8 ohms.

The amplifier is more than adequate for those speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2105
Registered: Oct-10
"I fairly doubt of his ears problem espacially if he can not hear the difference between Cd and Vinyl then can not understand why the vinyl is again the reference, the CD cutting the subtle details!"

But he is "Ornello the wise", so he must be right!

 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 188
Registered: Dec-12
No way do records give you more 'details'. What a laugh!

Most people cannot hear above 15K even when they are young. Another myth! Cartridges don't respond above about 17K, and neither do most speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2106
Registered: Oct-10
"I don't need more power at 2 ohms, as the speakers are 8 ohms.

The amplifier is more than adequate for those speakers."


How does it sound with records? How do 2 way speakers sound with it?

"...as the speakers are 8 ohms."

Really? That's just the nominal impedence. They might go down to 4 ohms or lower at different parts of the spectrum for all you know.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2107
Registered: Oct-10
"No way do records give you more 'details'. What a laugh!

Most people cannot hear above 15K even when they are young. Another myth! Cartridges don't respond above about 17K, and neither do most speakers."


NOT TRUE!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 189
Registered: Dec-12
Yes, I know that the impedance of speakers can vary, but the amp is more than sufficient for those speakers.

"The impedance curve for the NS1000 is actually quite benign and spends most of its time around the 8-ohm mark; the phase response also shows no major issues. Being a sealed enclosure rather than a bass reflex design you also get good bass damping with no major impedance swings at system resonance. The 90 db sensitivity also means that you won’t need 100 Kilo-watts to get any sort of volume, I have a sales brochure that suggests 15 watts is enough to make the NS1000’s fill an average sized room, and that’s just what the QUAD II’s can deliver."

http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=40452

"The thing I like the most the most about the NS1000 is the ease of drive, it’s a nice easy 8 ohms with a minimum impedance of about 6 with no sharp changes in the impedance curve or phase response and it has a nice practical 90db efficiency."

http://www.pinkfishmedia.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-124774.html
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 190
Registered: Dec-12
True, all-too-true....

Records do not have the capability of recording frequencies much above 15Khz, especially at the inner grooves.

But even if they could, we could not hear them:

"Humans can generally hear sounds with frequencies between 20 Hz and 20,000 Hz (the audio range or hearing range) although this range varies significantly with age, occupational hearing damage, and gender. The majority of people can no longer hear 20,000 Hz by the time they are teenagers, and progressively lose the ability to hear higher frequencies as they get older.

Most human speech communication takes place between 200 and 8,000 Hz and the human ear is most sensitive to frequencies around 1,000-3,500 Hz."

http://www.egopont.com/hearing_tests.php
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2108
Registered: Oct-10
"True, all-too-true.... "

NOPE!

Remember Ornello, just because you prefer a particular thing over another, that does not mean anyone else at all has to feel the same way. On another note, I know a few people who've measured 25 KHz coming from their records. These are folks between 20 and 52 who can hear up to 20 KHz just fine. Okay?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 191
Registered: Dec-12
LQTM
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2994
Registered: Oct-07
Pass is experimenting w/ V-FETs.

http://www.firstwatt.com/sitintro.html

'd' amps have indeed come a LONG way. The DIY crowd, however, while likeing the 'chip' amps have also gone heavy for HYPEX the peak of which is the NEW N-core stuff.....NOT available to OEM or commercial builders.

http://www.hypex.nl/product/2012-11-23-13-41-35/nc400.html

The Ncore400 has kind of an odd form factor, but it is also small enough for compact stereo amps or, as I'd use it if so inclined, to biamp mypanels.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2109
Registered: Oct-10
What does the "V" in V-FET stand for Leo?
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 192
Registered: Dec-12
Vertical Field-Effect Transistor
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 193
Registered: Dec-12
I love it!

See:

"QUOTE (almostmitch @ Nov 28 2012, 02:43) *
I'm 20 years old and have never truly experienced vinyl.


Lucky you. I have experienced it and it is awful.

QUOTE (almostmitch @ Nov 28 2012, 02:43) *
...how do you like the vinyl experience compared to the CD experience?


The "vinyl experience" is a lot noisier than the "CD experience."
Vinyl is destroyed as it is played.
Vinyl is heavier and takes more space than CDs.
CDs have an error correction system that makes them "damage resistant" (they can still play without noticeable quality losses even when damaged).
CDs can handle a larger dynamic range than LPs.

QUOTE (almostmitch @ Nov 28 2012, 02:43) *
Can the added complexities with vinyl add to the experience?


The only complexities vinyl adds to the experience are: noise and distortion. Vinyl is a very primitive and obsolete type of media. It's main disadvantage when compared to CD is that vinyl discs are NOT digital."

http://www.hydrogenaudio.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=98090
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2111
Registered: Oct-10
Oh, nevermind Leo. I re-read Jan's post. V stands for "verticle".

Interesting that someone is taking interest in V-FETs again after all these years.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2112
Registered: Oct-10
All that proves Ornello, is that you've apparently managed to influence almostmitch, an impressionable young man, not to check out records for himself. You did him a dis-service, not a favor. Why not let him experience them for himself and make up his own mind? Seriously Ornello, there's something wrong with you. You have an inferiority/superiority complex. That's where you feel inferior to everyone else, so you act like your superior to everyone else and that your opinions are facts and they're not. We all have the right to listen to music from which ever medium/media we choose through which ever type of amp and speakers we choose. We also have the right to do so without being harrassed by you for it. Go see a shrink you insecure child!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 194
Registered: Dec-12
I just found that, I did not write it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2113
Registered: Oct-10
Whether it was you or someone else, it was a sick and wrong thing to do.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 195
Registered: Dec-12
Why do you say that? Read the thread...and see how many are against it!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2114
Registered: Oct-10
So, bunch of anti-record sickos got together and disueded the young man away from the "forbidden fruit" known as vinyl? That's seriously messed up. I'll be sure to avoid that forum like the plague. It should be called "Audio Forum for the Mentally Disturbed". You and your fellow know it alls can stay in that forum while you agree about how records suck.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1551
Registered: Jul-07
"Read the thread...and see how many are against it!

Sure, cuz everyone knows nobody is still listening to LP's, right Ornello ? That one thread on that single forum (a haven for vinyl fans I'm sure) is more evidence you are right than anyone should need, right ? We should have just taken your word for it really, but that one quoted passage was the deal breaker for me. I'm selling my records and my turntable.

Why don't you pop over to the Vinyl Circle at Audiocircle and bestow upon them your edict of a vinyl-less world as well. Stupid records. Perhaps a constitutional ammendment is in order.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 196
Registered: Dec-12
The points made by the contributors are well taken.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2115
Registered: Oct-10
How about the point being made here? Is that well taken? That point being: You need to let the rest of us pick our own media, amps and speakers! Can you grasp that? Huh? Can you?...Or should I just ask the obvious question? What the f*** is wrong with you Ornello?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2116
Registered: Oct-10
"Do it, almostmitch.

The Pro-Ject Debut III is a decent turntable...especially so for someone who doesn't want to throw a small fortune at analogue hardware. Mine (pre-"carbon tone arm") has a bit of rumble but it's not really noticeable unless listening to quiet passages on headphones. Good news is that can be filtered out if you plan on digitizing.

You'll likely be told by a lot of people here to not bother. The general consensus around here is that records are crap. I am not here to try to minimize their often legitimate complaints about the format, but I don't think you'll be doing wrong. Especially if you buy a decent, but not overpriced TT like the Debut Carbon. As long as you take care of the equipment and the medium it's a solid investment. You can sell the TT later if you decide it's not for you. Trade-in value of LPs at my local indie store far exceeds that of CDs.

I have a love/hate relationship with vinyl LPs: when they're good they're great. When they're bad it really irritates me. Be prepared to get about one shitty record out of every fifteen new ones you buy. If you're into metal, Century Media and Back on Black have always been above average pressings for me. Earache, OTOH, is has been IME an example of crappy quality control (that actually surprises me for a British company.)

Appreciating and collecting music, on any format, is about fun and what's right for the individual. Your system doesn't have to "measure well" as long as the sound is pleasing to your ears. Some people are understandably sick of records and have long moved on to digital. I personally am grateful for both. Just today I listened to music on my home stereo that consisted of two records, a CD, a DVD-A, and a full album that I downloaded from iTunes. Long story short: I don't care about the format as much as I do about the music.

Make sure you get a decent carbon-fibre brush and keep your needle clean."


Here is a post from that same thread. I guess not everyone in that forum is an anti-record sick, just most of them. Matter of fact Ornello, there are a lot of good points made in this post. The same things I've been telling you are voiced here Ornello. Take a look.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Danonc

Post Number: 35
Registered: Oct-07
All I can say is "wow". Ornello, you truly are an as$ and you and superjazzy have hijacked what was an attempt for real honest advice. I remember when this board was populated with folks that had a lot of experience with different hifi manufacturers and formats and had informed opinions (I'm thinking in particular of Nuck and Art, and Jan, who was argumentative, but informed). Thanks for taking over my post, offering nothing of value and turning this into an overall shitty experience. All posts are now going into my spam box.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 198
Registered: Dec-12
Why anyone would use records when there is a vastly better alternative is beyond comprehension and just perverse.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 199
Registered: Dec-12
Dan:

What do you want me to tell you?

My advice is valuable and honest: dump records! There is no 'answer' to the static and every other limitation of the phonograph record. Trust me, I know! There is no magic wand I can wave to make the bad stuff go away. I bought my first turntable in 1972! Don't ask me to tell you lies, to tell you what you want to hear. I'm telling you the truth. The CD is VASTLY superior to records in EVERY WAY! That's why the CD was invented!

I was so happy the day I sold all 1200 of my records!

Get a big box, put all your records in it, and take them out and burn the damned things!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17723
Registered: May-04
.


"(I'm thinking in particular of Nuck and Art, and Jan ... "





FYI: Nuck passed away 11/9/12.




.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2118
Registered: Oct-10
"FYI: Nuck passed away 11/9/12."

Sorry to hear it. Nuck was a good guy. I had been wondering why he hadn't been around. My condolences to all of his friends.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2119
Registered: Oct-10
"Thanks for taking over my post, offering nothing of value and turning this into an overall shitty experience. All posts are now going into my spam box."

Sorry Dan, that wasn't my intent. I was just trying to get Ornello to stop bashing records.

"Dan:

What do you want me to tell you?

My advice is valuable and honest: dump records! There is no 'answer' to the static and every other limitation of the phonograph record. Trust me, I know! There is no magic wand I can wave to make the bad stuff go away. I bought my first turntable in 1972! Don't ask me to tell you lies, to tell you what you want to hear. I'm telling you the truth. The CD is VASTLY superior to records in EVERY WAY! That's why the CD was invented!

I was so happy the day I sold all 1200 of my records!

Get a big box, put all your records in it, and take them out and burn the damned things!"


Hey Orenllo! Idiot, d-bag, f***ed up moron! Cut it out already! Dan likes records. Get over it! Why do you feel the need to keep pushing your agenda? What would you do if CDs dissappeared and records remained? Tell people not listen to music? Knock it off you sick f***! How is telling Dan to give up what he enjoys helpful? It's NOT bone head!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 200
Registered: Dec-12
Some people are stubborn and can't deal with reality.

Emotions don't enter into it.

There is nothing that can be done to remedy the weaknesses of records.

Nothing.

Be polite, like I am. Don't use foul language. It frightens the geese.

I insist.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2121
Registered: Oct-10
Hey Ornello, F*** YOU!

Dump your f***ing 3 way Yamahas, they suck!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2122
Registered: Oct-10
"Be polite, like I am"

Listen Miss Manners, you're not being polite at all. "Dump your records, they suck." is NOT a polite thing to say and you're an idiot. Go learn how to be respectful of others' tastes that would be a start on the road to being polite.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2123
Registered: Oct-10
Btw Ornello, saying "Emotions don't enter into it." is stupid. Of course emotions enter. No one enjoys being told that his/her favorite medium, band, sports team, make of car, etc sucks. In my estimation, you are a childish idiot with nothing better to do than troll around audio forums telling people that what they like sucks if it's not to your liking. Do you even post in threads where CDs, 3 way speakers or SS amps are discussed? No! Why? Because doing so has the potential to be helpful.

Ornello, 3 way speakers suck, Yamaha sucks, Sony sucks and YOU SUCK!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17724
Registered: May-04
.


"Be polite, like I am"


Orne, post #25;
https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/713635.html#POST2008191


"Polite" seems to be a relative thing.





.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2124
Registered: Oct-10
"
Ornello

Bronze Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 25
Registered: Dec-12


Ornello posted on Thursday, January 03, 2013 - 00:53 GMT

1) Everything you know is wrong.

2) Everything you think is wrong.

3) Before you were even conceived, you were wrong

So, do us all a favour and get off this forum. You have nothing to contribute but falsehoods and myths."


Not polite Orne, not polite at all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2125
Registered: Oct-10
"
Jan Vigne

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17724
Registered: May-04


Jan_b_vigne posted on Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 15:47 GMT

.


"Be polite, like I am"


Orne, post #25;
https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/713635.html#POST2008191


"Polite" seems to be a relative thing."


No, it's a matter of convenience, as in what's convemient for "Ornello the wise". If Orne says it's polite, it's polite. If Orne says it's not polite, then it's not polite. If Orne had his way, everyone who likes records, tubes and/or 2 way speakers would be in jail for life!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 201
Registered: Dec-12
I'm just trying to give the OP an honest answer, not necessarily the one he wants to hear. If you want to know the limitations of records, go here, and scroll down to 'Limitations':

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramophone_record

Static issues are discussed there.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2126
Registered: Oct-10
"I'm just trying to give the OP an honest answer, not necessarily the one he wants to hear. If you want to know the limitations of records, go here, and scroll down to 'Limitations':"

Who gives a dirty dead rat's hind quarters? If the op wants to listen to records, just let him do so and get off his back already!
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1552
Registered: Jul-07
"Why anyone would use records when there is a vastly better alternative is beyond comprehension and just perverse"

I still haven't quite gotten over this one. Um....wow. Listening to records.......is perverse. Hmmmm. What's perverse is your desire to ram your misguided and uninformed opinions down people's throats. Every....single....time you've offered "advice" it has been rejected. You've p!ssed off every.....single.....person you've offered your "opinions" and "advice" to. Nobody agrees with you. Not one....single....person.

See a pattern ? I thought not. You'd have to step out of your own perverse reality to see it.

Here's an idea. Start your own thread and write in it all of these opinions you have (you know, tube amps suck, 2-way speakers suck, LP's really suck, etc). Take all the time you need. Make it very, very detailed. Add in lots of those classic anecdotes where you tell people what they don't want to hear and how they ALWAYS come back and say "Ya know Orney, you were right all along." I love those stories *sniff*. It's really what you're best at....one way dialogue. Just a man and his opinions. It'll be a classic that I'm sure any audiophile would love to read and learn from *cough*. When you're done (like I said, take your time.....no really.....take all the time you need) people can choose to engage you in that thread (or not). But, stay the heck out of all other threads, cuz you're just.....not....helping. And don't just take my word for it. ASK AROUND!
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1553
Registered: Jul-07
"If you want to know the limitations of records, go here, and scroll down to 'Limitations': "

So, the redbook format has no 'limitations' ? Limitless you say ? Really ? Not a single compromise ?

Put that in your new thread. I wasn't aware of that.

What 'limitations' do you suppose your Sony CD player has Orney ? Any at all ?

This new thread of yours is going to be GREAT!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 202
Registered: Dec-12
What is 'helping', Chris? Telling people what they want to hear?

"Yes, this cream will restore your youthful looks and make your hair grow back and make you lose that weight! Only $159.99 per bottle! Two for one special if you order with your credit card NOW!"
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2127
Registered: Oct-10
"Why anyone would use records when there is a vastly better alternative is beyond comprehension and just perverse"

Exactly my question too! What is perverse about a person listening to music on his/her medium of choice?

"What's perverse is your desire to ram your misguided and uninformed opinions down people's throats. Every....single....time you've offered "advice" it has been rejected. You've p!ssed off every.....single.....person you've offered your "opinions" and "advice" to. Nobody agrees with you. Not one....single....person.

See a pattern ? I thought not. You'd have to step out of your own perverse reality to see it"


I couldn't agree more! Again Orny, listen and let listen!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2128
Registered: Oct-10
"What is 'helping', Chris? Telling people what they want to hear?"

NO! Giving the op advice on how to get the most enjoyment from his records. Yes, you could mention some of the drawbacks of records, even recommend giving CDs a try HAD HE NO DONE SO ALREADY! However, if the op prefers records, let him have and listen to his records. If you don't have any advice that will help him toward that end, then don't paricipate in the thread at all!

Btw Orny, dump your 3 way Ymamhas. They SUCK!

Also Orny, Don't trust what you read on wikipedia. It's not the most reliable source of info.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 203
Registered: Dec-12
Sorry, if you ask about a problem inherent in records, one that cannot be overcome, the only answer is to use something else. It's that simple. I had all kinds of record cleaning brushes and cleaning solutions...they never worked right. Left residue and created static.

I got really tired of all of that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2129
Registered: Oct-10
"
So, the redbook format has no 'limitations' ? Limitless you say ? Really ? Not a single compromise ?"


That's right Chris, the redbook fromat has NO limits at all! It can carry a 1 Hz to infinity Hz signal with no loss at all. It's truly magical (chuckle, chuckle). I mean the CD not only has absolutely no defects, faults or limitations as a music medium, it can also cook all of your meals and clean your house for you! Just buy 1, that's right just 1 CD Chris doesn't matter what it is. It can even be a blank CD-R, no CD player required, and you can tell your wife she's on easy street. The CD will do all of the work for her! Hey! Today is Valentine's Day. WHAT A GIFT!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2130
Registered: Oct-10
"Sorry, if you ask about a problem inherent in records, one that cannot be overcome, the only answer is to use something else. It's that simple. I had all kinds of record cleaning brushes and cleaning solutions...they never worked right. Left residue and created static.

I got really tired of all of that."


That's fine for you! Don't want records and a TT? Don't have 'em and let those who want 'em have 'em. What in tarnation is so hard about that??????????????????????
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17725
Registered: May-04
.


Hawkbilly posted on Wednesday, February 13, 2013 - 10:07 GMT



Ignore Ornello folks.





That was more than 80 posts back.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4Z5Of7qcEY






.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 204
Registered: Dec-12
The CD has 'limitations' but it doesn't wear out, have problems with static, clicks, pops, etc. Sure, they can be scratched and rendered unusable, but they are not nearly as delicate as records. Frequency response, channel separation and S/N ratios are vastly superior. Noise is basically non-existent, as is distortion. You don't have to replace styli and worry about how many hours are on the one you have.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2131
Registered: Oct-10
Know what Jan? You & Chris are right. Ornello the turd doesn't deserve anymore attention. I hope he enjoys his solitude.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ornello

Post Number: 206
Registered: Dec-12
It's amazing how rude everyone else is. Have I ever said anything like this? Have I ever called anyone names? All I have ever done is to disagree.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 3001
Registered: Oct-07
Orn, It is ok to disagree.
However, keep in mind the different types of 'disagree'.

1. Ornery. Just to be different. Obstinate
2. Disagree for reason other than opinion.

Example: It is a fact that multi-way systems compound design and execution problems faster than the number of 'ways'. Solutions can get expensive and lead to compromise. ALL systems are compromise in one sense or another. Even very expensive stuff.
Nothing in the world of hifi is 'best'. The subjective experience trumps ALL measures, though headway is being made in psychoacoustics and related fields.

Your inability or unwillingness to come to grips with some fine links which have been provided in support of other views have been uniformly ignored. That makes you a 'category #1 disagreer'.

I'm out of the loop now, too.
Enjoy the hobby. Enjoy the music. Just don't think that your solution is THE solution.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 3002
Registered: Oct-07
For the OP:
I was never able to be happy with vinyl. I went over to the CD side when they became available in the early 80s. I never looked back.

However, I DO have a very interesting product made for digital camera sensor plate cleaning.

It is called an 'Arctic Butterfly'. It consists of a handle holding a pair of 'AA' batteries and a tiny, very high speed motor. The motor is connected to a long brush head which when spun acquires a huge static charge. I use it to clean the sensor of my digital camera.

It may do the same for vinyl.....and may be worth an experiment to find out if it DOES actually do any good?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2148
Registered: Oct-10
"Orn, It is ok to disagree.
However, keep in mind the different types of 'disagree'.

1. Ornery. Just to be different. Obstinate
2. Disagree for reason other than opinion.

Example: It is a fact that multi-way systems compound design and execution problems faster than the number of 'ways'. Solutions can get expensive and lead to compromise. ALL systems are compromise in one sense or another. Even very expensive stuff.
Nothing in the world of hifi is 'best'. The subjective experience trumps ALL measures, though headway is being made in psychoacoustics and related fields.

Your inability or unwillingness to come to grips with some fine links which have been provided in support of other views have been uniformly ignored. That makes you a 'category #1 disagreer'.

I'm out of the loop now, too.
Enjoy the hobby. Enjoy the music. Just don't think that your solution is THE solution."


Forget it Leo, you'd get further trying to explain astrophysics to my son's cat. I am putting the cat on a plane right now and sending him to you. Have any experience with ragdolls? Very unique bread of cat! I am counting on you to teach this cat all about space, time gravity, etc, I'll test him when he gets home.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2154
Registered: Oct-10
Upload

He'll probably be the only solo kitty at the airport, but thought I'd include a pic just to make sure you know him when you see him.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 3008
Registered: Oct-07
Please include cats favorite food /treats and playthings.

MY cats learned lots, but seemed to have an inherent grasp of gravity (always feet DOWN upon landing), time (slepts lots) and time management...making demands for door open/closed.....attention and so forth.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2160
Registered: Oct-10
Sending food & treats w/him.

Lol! This cat knows about gravity too. He likes to push things off of the ends of tables and watch them hit the floor! He likes to demand that the door to the patio be open so that he can spy on the neighborhood.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 3012
Registered: Oct-07
While on my walk today I was set upon by the neighbor cat. Darn thing ran across the road and fell over on its side.....in my path. What am I supposed to do? Ignore a request for attention like that? Cat is very mello and even lets me touch and pick him up by his tail. He does all the usual cat stuff...rubbing and so forth. I can even rub the tummy, generally a cat no-no.
OOOPS! Times up. Other stuff to do....and it runs off back across the street. Funny cat, and clearly mistreated by its owners.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2179
Registered: Oct-10
"Funny cat, and clearly mistreated by its owners."

It's both sad and aggrivating when people abuse and neglect their pets.

Speaking of sad, my wife and I found our neighbor's cat deat Saturday night. He'd been sick, got shots from the vet and was getting better. Then, he got worse...We're just glad we were able to take care of him before her kids saw him.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 3013
Registered: Oct-07
I was being smart .
Cat is very clean...the sign of an indoor cat, and clearly a feline petstitute for being petted.......and in no way mistreated.
I've seen the owners and they are cat people.....but the cat obviously needs lots of attention. I'd get it a companion dog...maybe a Pug?

My old cat, Renfield, had a buddy named Nimba..a big Sheperd / Lab mixThey'd eat from the same dish sometimes and Renfield would chase other dogs off the property. Meanest cat I ever saw.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 2207
Registered: Oct-10
Okay, guess I missed that you were being smart because one of my neighbors back in NJ had a very friendly orange tabby whom he neglected and that's what came to mind. Also, a friend of mine died Sunday Morning and I could not attend her funeral, so I guess a lot of negative emotions were present when I saw that.
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