My current system is Naim ... CD5X/Flatcap2X, Nait 5i-2, Ariva Speakers. I use Naim interconnects/Speaker Cable also.
Im wanting to move my system forward, and the amp is probably the weakest link in my system.
I demo'ed a Nait XS amp, and it was a very big jump forward. There was more of everything, especially in the bass department, tone and weight. The difference was night and day compared to the Nait5i-2. it basically was similar tone/presentation IMO but everything was very much improved over the smaller intergrated.
Then I heard the Naim Seperates, 150/122x (from memory the numbers might not be right). The seperates totally opened up the music, with a massive soundstage compared to even the XS, instruments were seperated better, much better detail etc. The presentation was perhaps leaner but only compared to the XS. Bass was very accurate and tight. Everything sounded "right".
The only thing that stopped me was at loudish volumes, with my Ariva's I'm worried I wont get the "slam" and bass of higher watt amps. The XS is only 10W difference, but something like the Super Nait or higher powered seperates.
If anyone has heard "The battle" on The Gladiator Sound Track, the Nait 5-i really cant handle this at 9-10 o'clock volume that well.
My question, for Frank and anyone who knows Naim gear.... Would a combo like Naim NAP 200 NAC122x work ok? Its the cheaper pre with the more expensive power amp? This on paper might have more grip over the Ariva's ... or is it just a waste of money over the Nap 150?
"If anyone has heard "The battle" on The Gladiator Sound Track, the Nait 5-i really cant handle this at 9-10 o'clock volume that well."
Two things; sooner or later there are limits to every component, judging a system based primarily on one selection that is difficult for the majority of components isn't being totally fair. I would suggest you look at the larger picture of what you will gain in overall quality with a broad range of material.
I assume you are stating from direct experience that one system can handle this specific sequence without apparent issue while the other can. If not, are you certain it is the amplifier that is causing the problem? If you are not comparing red delicious apples to red delicious apples on a specific track of explosions and general mayhem, you might be mistakenly concluding the amplifier is at fault when the problems could be the result of speaker or room failings, even to the point of where you are sitting within the room.
Wattage should have no real bearing on what you are hearing unless one amplifier is clearly being driven beyond its limits. A ten watt on paper difference should not be audible unless you are comparing a three watt amplifier with a thirteen watt amplifier. If there is a real difference between the sound of these two amplifiers, the difference would more than likely be in the power supply. Power supplies have long been an issue with Naim and are considered an upgrade path to better performance. What varieties are available as an upgrade for each amplifier?
Jan Vigne, Good point... I guess with some tracks Im wanting more dynamics - even though they are already pretty good.
The Nait XS and the Pre/Power 150/122x can both be upgraded with the Flatcap2x which I own. I heard both setups with the power supply. I know 10W isn't much on paper, but the XS did seem quite a bit more powerful sounding then the 5i-2 and the 150/122. Bass seemed slightly enhanced yet in a good way. The 150/122 sonically was totally superior though IMO.
Maybe its the Ariva's - they are big and dynamic at moderate volumes , but on the odd occasion you want to blast them a bit SOMETHING struggles along the way ...}
Someone more familair with the recent Naim line of speakers will have to answer that last issue. I have problems with the way too many high end loudspeakers are being designed today. They require massive amounts of current and brutalize most amplifiers with their impedance and phase angles. I generally caution against such designs, in many cases just for the reasons of the speaker's lack of drive at low volumes. However, I spend more time at low level listening than most others will.
The Arivas are what you own, however, so that becomes another issue you would need to consider in this change. Probably the best I can do is say you should judge the possible systems over what has highest priority to you and what will occupy most of your listening time. Realize every system has trade offs and take the set up that offers you - with your own concepts of reproduction values - the fewest negatives.
It's been a couple of years since I've heard Arivas. My recollection is that you're right. They do go so far but then run out of steam. That said, the top Naim system I'd recommend would be a CDX2/202/200. That's when they're the obvious weak point. Below that they should be giving you way more than most other speakers at their price point (and a bit above that) so I don't think they're your problem.
The 122x/150x has just been replaced by the 152xs/155xs. This takes the pre/power up to the same power level as the Nait XS and opens things up in the preamp section, especially when driven by a Flatcap2x. So if you decide to go with the 122x/150x you should get around 15% off as it will be ex-demo. The 150 has almost exactly the same power level as the Nait5i-2, so it's plenty powerful enough for most purposes. Using the Flatcap2x improves the resolution and pace quite a bit in my experience. But if you heard the 152xs/155xs, that's another kettle of fish and yes, a good bit better than the Nait XS.
All that said, I'm not surprised you felt the Nait XS seemed that much more powerful than the Nait. The power supply in the Nait XS is substantially bigger and stores quite a bit more energy than that in the Nait5i-2, giving extra drive and power. The Nait XS also has that active preamp stage which I think is its real strength.
One of the most satisfyingly 'value for money' systems I play with in the shop has been the CD5x/NaitXS/n-SAT. No sub, no fancy wires, just music. There's something that just 'clicks' when this system is on. One of my very firm favourites in the shop (and we have a helluva lot more expensive systems in the shop). I would be surprised if the Arivas didn't relish the extra resolution and power of the Nait XS, and I wonder if that's what you experienced - this sweet spot of 5x/XS with the lower end Naim speakers.
Personally, if you were thinking in terms of 122x/200 I'd think again and go 202/150x. The weakness in the 5i-2 and (to a lesser extent) the pre/power is the preamp. By Naim standards, the 112 was poor, the 112x was marginally better. The 122x is where the preamp became viable and genuinely reasonable quality for the price and the new 152x is better again, but none have come close to the 202 which was a bt too good for its price (especially after the 102 it replaced). If a Naim dealer has a 122x/150x in stock he should be able to show you the difference between 122x/200 and 202/150x. I'd be surprised if you went for the former.
The other thing to bear in mind is the effectiveness of the HiLine. I know it's 'just a cable' but it's a genuine component and that's why it's the same price as a component. Normally we would say that you should go for the boxes first and then finish up with cabling, but it's still worth thinking about. The HiLine opens up the sound and provides much better resolution and slam. So another combination to consider is the CD5x/HiLine/Nait XS.
In some ways it depends on how far you see yourself going in the future. Adding a NaitXS with a HiLine gives you a nicely balanced system. Adding a 122x/150x is also nicely balanced but the pre/power has a slightly different emphasis toward the midrange, even with the Flatcap2x, but you'll have a nicely balanced maxxed out x-series system there. To really 'open the window' jump to the 202/150x. Ex-demo 202s should be around to bring the price to more sensible levels. Question is, would the 202's different size gnaw at you to upgrade the rest?
So is the 152xs/155xs much better then the 122x/150x? I only heard the older models with the flatcap not the xs ones, perhaps the new xs version with the 10w extra has a bit more grip on the Arivas?
It would be a good demo 122x/200 vs 202/150x, do you think the better pre-amp would be the way to go? 202/155xs might be an option too with the extra 10w?
Wen I had the demo the xs versions were just being talked about ... I think I need to hear these now. I wonder how much of a jump the 202 pre would be over the new xs, and how much the xs is over the older 122?
Jan Vigne - Someone more familair with the recent Naim line of speakers will have to answer that last issue. I have problems with the way too many high end loudspeakers are being designed today. They require massive amounts of current and brutalize most amplifiers with their impedance and phase angles. I generally caution against such designs, in many cases just for the reasons of the speaker's lack of drive at low volumes. However, I spend more time at low level listening than most others will.
The Arivas are what you own, however, so that becomes another issue you would need to consider in this change. Probably the best I can do is say you should judge the possible systems over what has highest priority to you and what will occupy most of your listening time. Realize every system has trade offs and take the set up that offers you - with your own concepts of reproduction values - the fewest negatives.
The Ariva's do seem to sound best at 9 o'clock on the Nait5i amp which is medium to med-loud. The bass is right and dynamics are all there at this volume. At 10-11 o'clock they sing fine too, its only with real large and dynamic music (eg The Gladiator soundtrack or some classical).
You make a few good points about priotys etc. The Ariva's are hear to stay! Iv heard them on a much better source (turntable Rega i think) and they were amazing!
Out of curiousity - are the Ariva's a difficult load to drive?
I don't think they are difficult to drive. I heard a 35 watt tube amp drive them with ease. Probably could've been a little more control over the bass...but sounded fabulous
How many "watts" are required to drive a speaker is not the real issue here. Sensitivity is your normal consideration when discussing watts, in that regard the Naim speakers are, from what I see, about average in sensitivity. What you are asking is more a question of how much amplifier will be required to drive the speakers with adequate sound quality - the issue of "more control in the bass" for instance.
An amplifier that is overmatched by the speaker will begin to be driven by the speaker and the bass is the most common place for this to happen due to the high back EMF from the low frequency driver and through the crossover. You have to judge from experience whether the speaker is not paired to the right amplifier or whether the speaker designer simply chose a rather underdamped alignment for his system as both sound very much like a speaker with loosey-goosey bass control. If the alignment of the speaker is underdamped by the designer, there isn't much you can do with an amplifier to change that fact - you either accept the wooly bass response or you don't. The typical solution of choosing a "super tight" amplifier often has other trade offs that will make the pairing less than ideal. If the amplifier is not up to the task of adequately driving a properly aligned speaker, then you should be looking for an amplifier that has better current delivery.
I can't find a review of the Ariva that measures the impedance curve and the electrical phase angle, those are the two most important items when assessing how much amplifier you will require beyond just the watts per channel. You have experience with the speakers so you should be in a better position than most to judge what is happening with the speakers and your amplifier.
If you really care to find out just what the speakers require beyond that rather silly "10 watts minimum/150 watts max" that many manufacturers still cling to, you should give Naim a call. Ask specifically about the low impedance point(s) and the electrical phase angle plot of the speaker system. An impedance point beneath five Ohms begins to ask for substantial amounts of current from the amplifier. A phase angle that climbs into the "+" or "-" 35° range means the amplifier must sustain that current delivery for more than an instantaneous burst. Where in the frequency range these points occur will also determine just how difficult the speakers are to drive. If both of these points occur at low to mid frequencies, then the speakers would, by most people's measure, be somewhat difficult to drive and will require a high current amplifier. Lower impedance and/or high phase angle numbers would only make the problems more pronounced.
Interesting - I was surprised to find that the Arivas are a nominal 4 ohm load. This makes them unusually difficult to drive for a Naim speaker. Most are 6 ohms nominal with few dipping below 5 ohms. Also, there was a change in mid-life of the Ariva where the quoted numbers are slightly different. The early version quoted 100W power handling, 88db/1W/1m and 30 - 20khz whereas the later version quotes 150W music program, 90db/1W/1m and 35 - 20khz response indicating some minor changes had been made. I suspect the later version was easier to drive, but unfortunately the later model is not identified separately in the product history on the Naim site. That said, if you look in your manual and check the numbers, you'll know which one you've got.
Even so, Naim design their speakers to work sympathetically with their amps. Arivas and n-SATs were specifically designed as low cost (!) speakers to work with the 5 series level equipment. Of course, the speakers work brilliantly with better kit, but they were designed with the lower level electronics in mind.
I should point out that with a CD player as source, the 12 o'clock position is pretty much maxxing out the Nait5i, so you're getting pretty close at 11 o'clock. The extra 10W afforded by the NaitXS or 155XS may not seem much but in Naim terms it's quite a bit. I still don't think this is the issue because you found the 122x/150x so much better. That reflects the preamp stage's better capabilties I think since the 150 is the same power rating as the Nait5i-2.
I haven't done the direct comparison between the 122x/150x and 152xs/155xs. I would expect the new pair to be a good improvement since the NaitXS was making it very hard to sell 122x/150x pairings.
I still think the better preamp is the way to go between the 152xs/200 and 202/155xs or 122x/200 vs 202/150x. It's an easy demo for most Naim dealers.
