My very hot amp ...
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New member Username: FreshericPost Number: 1 Registered: May-09 | Hello all ... Well, I am not particularly up on the techie side of hi-fi, but hoping maybe someone here can help me out... I have just today bought myself a new Harmon Kardon HK980 from Richer Sounds, which sounds lovely, but is getting very, very hot. When I turn the volume up (not particularly loud) the amp cuts itself off and powers down with the word 'PROTECT' on the front panel... After a couple of songs I have turned it off until I can work out what's going on! The amp is rated at 80W / channel at 8 ohms continuous average power. The speakers are old Eltax Symphony 8, which are 6 ohm speakers, rated at 110W 'Sinus Power'. The amp carries the warning that you can not connect more than one pair of speakers unless all speakers run at a minimum of 8 ohms. The Eltax are bi-wired, and I have twisted together the high and low frequency cables in to a single speaker connector on the amp ... is this OK?! I am inputting from a Logitech Squeezebox in to the Aux input. Do I have a faulty amp? Do I need to wire my speakers differently? Do I need to change my speakers? Or is it something to do with the way the Squeezebox outputs? Any advice gratefully received! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 13633 Registered: May-04 | . HK amps tend to run hot. They need plenty of ventilation space above, below and to all sides. If the amp is enclosed in a cabinet, this is probably the reason for the shutdown. If you haven't already, you should try a different speaker cable that is a simple two conductor 18 guage zip cord. You can buy short lengths of zip cord at Radio Shack or any home improvement type store for ony a few dollars. If this allows the amp to operate properly, check your currrent speaker cables for any crossed wires or breaks in the insulation that might be hiding shorted cable legs. A single conductor strand that crosses between speaker or amplifier connectors will cause the problem you are describing. I'm not at all familar with your speakers but most "6 Ohm" nominal speakers will have a dip in their impedance load that draws large amounts of current from the amplifier and current draw is, in the case of the HK receiver, what causes the amp to run very hot. If you have or can borrow another speaker set for experimentation, connect them in place of your present speakers and see if the amp continues to shut down. If so, then you probably need to provide better ventilation to the receiver. Possiby you might need new speakers. If the music you are playing has substantial bass content, this requires high voltage and high current from any amplifier even into a modest speaker load. If you have any tone controls turned up or an eq inserted into the system, disonnect all such devices and turn the tone controls to flat. See if this solves the problem. If need be, pull the receiver out onto a flat surafce that allows air flow from all sides, top and bottom, and play relatively simple, non-demanding music. Play only the FM radio with all other source components disconnected and see if the amp survives. If, after all this, the amp continues to shut down under any circumstance, call your dealer. It is not uncommon for HK amps to require this set up attention. They like to be treated well. It is uncommon for an HK amp to be defective out of the box. So do the tests and make certain it is the amp that has problems and not the set up. . |
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New member Username: FreshericPost Number: 2 Registered: May-09 | Hi Jan - Many thanks for your help ... you are a star ! It was indeed a short in my speaker cable that was causing the problem. Having fixed that, it still runs warm, but not dangerously hot - I take comfort from your assurance that warm is normal for HK. It is no longer cutting out, even when I turn it up pretty loud so I think everything is good. Thanks again, Eric |
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Silver Member Username: SoundgameRichmond Hill Toronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 775 Registered: Jun-08 | Stick around on this site Eric and you'll learn a lot more, though it's addicitve. Jan is a wonderful source of info. along with a number of other regulars on this forum. |
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New member Username: AudiohtarchitectPost Number: 5 Registered: Sep-09 | BTW get bigger speaker cable. Although I don't recommend that recdeiver on a 6 ohm nimonal load at all, larger wire can help. keep in mind "nominal" means an average at relatively reasonable listening levels, which of course is completely subjective. What's reasonable? Your receiver is using an integrated curcuit board on some part of it's output stage. This removes the surface area of a solid state board that dissipates heat in that stage. In turn the company has to use smaller capacitors in oder to prevent frying of the board. The side effect of using a smaller current limiting device ( a cap) is that the cap is also the dynamic storage facility for the current driving the output. On repeated demanding loads, the cap "empties" and no longer has the backbone to respond, which also increases trhe heat produced as the amp strives to maintain the volume you have requested without the current to back it up. As far as the speaker cable is conceredn larger is ALWAYS better, with as many strands (unless you can afford pure silver core stuff) as possible. More strands equals more surface area equals more signal with less reistance. less resistance equals less work for the amp to get the signal to your speakers. good luck, Paul |
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New member Username: AudiohtarchitectPost Number: 6 Registered: Sep-09 | Christ I can't type. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13723 Registered: Dec-04 | 20G copper(2 runs) and 22 g silver. Apply to tape, 4" seperation, and terminate in bare wire. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14073 Registered: May-04 | . "Although I don't recommend that recdeiver on a 6 ohm nimonal load at all, larger wire can help. keep in mind "nominal" means an average at relatively reasonable listening levels, which of course is completely subjective." None of that applies to the use of "nominal" in the case of "nominal" impedance load. Doesn't refer at all to volume levels. "On repeated demanding loads, the cap "empties" and no longer has the backbone to respond " "Backbone" to respond? It has nothing to do with the cap's "backbone". " ... which also increases trhe heat produced as the amp strives to maintain the volume you have requested without the current to back it up." Actually, it's the current that does the work and is therefore responsibile for the heat in the first place. Take away the current and the heat goes with it unless the circuit has already hit thermal runaway because the "protection" circuit didn't cut in. "As far as the speaker cable is conceredn larger is ALWAYS better, with as many strands (unless you can afford pure silver core stuff) as possible." So, with silver you don't need stranded cables? But otherwise larger is "always" better? And larger (thicker I assume) cables will make up for a too low speaker load? Hmmmmm ... . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13725 Registered: Dec-04 | release the hounds... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13726 Registered: Dec-04 | I wanna follow up on Eric. |
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New member Username: AudiohtarchitectPost Number: 10 Registered: Sep-09 | Did I say "volume" in relation to nominal? No i didn't, but resistance does change with changes in demand. And demand is most notably affected with higher volumes, everything else being equal. The backbone...you'll notice it was in quotes... has to do with the amps ability to react, to POWER demanding loads which has EVERYTHING to do with the caps, for instantaneous demand. Did you eben know that a cap is a current limiting device by Definiotion? Serving as storage is a by product of the circuit. generally when something is in "quotes" its not meant to be taken literally but applied figuratively. I won't justify the rest of your comments, you're trying so hard to fild holes in my logic that your analytical proccesses are taking a back seat. Keep in mind, this post is about Eric, not your apparently fragile ego. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14076 Registered: May-04 | . And on your 10th post you prove you have sh!t for brains and a piece of crap for a personality. "Did I say "volume" in relation to nominal?" Certainly looks like you did. The load remains constant (within reason) no matter the volume level. Heating from excessive volume causes changes but not enough to affect the "nominal" load of the speaker system " ... but resistance does change with changes in demand." I believe that is called gobbledygook, it says nothing and explains even less. Seems to suit you to a "T". "And demand is most notably affected with higher volumes, everything else being equal. " Though you manage to say even less intelligent things here you'll notice the issue was a bad speaker cable which was resolved in May and neither the speaker load not the volume or "loudness" itself was a factor in the amplifier's shut down. As poor as your advice was, it was unnecessary and did not address anything that matters to this thread. "The backbone...you'll notice it was in quotes... " No, it wasn't. You can't even get that straight by going up to look for yourself. " ... has to do with the amps ability to react, to POWER demanding loads which has EVERYTHING to do with the caps, for instantaneous demand." Instantaneous current draw can occur without the caps being fully charged. But, even if that weren't the case, the caps were not the issue in this thread. The amplifier's ability to drive the speakers to a reasonably loud volume is not in question. So why provide a BS post to something that doesn't require any of what you thought you said? Ego? "Did you eben know that a cap is a current limiting device by Definiotion?" Did you even know they conduct classes for both English and typing? Don't patronize, SOB. " Serving as storage is a by product of the circuit. generally when something is in "quotes" its not meant to be taken literally but applied figuratively." They also teach proofreading for those who can't. I'm not at all interested in taking on someone with your intelligence level. I was attempting to get some clarification of your post. Possibly why you decided to respond to a six month old thread that had been resolved by inserting gibberish that as nothing to do with the issues of the thread itself. You've done nothing to clarify anything other than your ego is much larger than anyone would have thought for someone so misinformed after only ten posts. You seem as though you have a combative nature when none is called for. . |
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Bronze Member Username: AudiohtarchitectPost Number: 16 Registered: Sep-09 | I have never seen such ignorance disguised as "knowledge". The very fact you believe resistance doesn't change proves that point. And of course insntaneous current draw can occur without the caps being fully charged, but if they are in fact "empty" on the output stage then the amps ability to provide needed current falls short. Ok so i'm not a great typist. and in fact, that has little to do with the point I was making and yes, it was a shorted wire but I was speaking to his concern for resistance. I only have a combative nature when self-important pseudo-intellectuals attempt to make themselves feel even more important to those who aren't as experienced as they are at the expense of someone that was trying to help. Yes, only a few posts. But I don't live my life in an audio forum, so I think I'm ok with that. Instead of trying to justify what you don't know, you might ask.."hmmm I wonder if he actually might know something I don't" you arrogant a$s. And if that's too much for your ego just go buy a book on basic amplifier design. Then maybe you can have a coherent discussion on the topic instead of you making things up to justify your pre-conclusions. HAHAHA you might just be the most ignorant smart person I've ever come across on one of these forums |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13730 Registered: Dec-04 | resistance does change with changes in demand. How does resistance change with demand? An instantaneous spike in demand will not create heat sufficient to change reststance by much, such as would be expected with continuous demand. Your typing is fine, PDN, but you come off as a prik, why not relax? |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2167 Registered: May-06 | https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?1/576037 |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 13741 Registered: Dec-04 | Priks don't last forever, the little blue pill wears off sooner or later. Or his arm... |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14081 Registered: May-04 | . "The very fact you believe resistance doesn't change proves that point." Sorry, did I say that? Don't post that I said anything unless I actually said it, that's super troll BS to the hilt. However, " ... resistance does change with changes in demand" is still gobbledygook and says nothing. Load impedance changes as parts heat up and values shift somewhat so, yes, resistance being a component of impedance you could say what you posted but without any further explanation you haven't said anything and probably done a good job of confusing the reader with your BS gobbledygook. As Nuck points out, what you have said is (depending on how charitable someone might be) still either wrong or at best highly misleading to any newbie. You were the one complaining on another thread about Nuck not being helpful to newbies, right? You haven't assisted anyone and the post still has nothing to do with a thread that has been dead for six months. On several levels here, you have been anything but helpful. "And of course insntaneous current draw can occur without the caps being fully charged, but if they are in fact "empty" on the output stage then the amps ability to provide needed current falls short." I'm going to assume you mean "empty" to be something other than empty since you put it in quotation marks. If the amp is plugged into the AC outlet, the caps are never "empty", it is their nature to have a charge and they are constantly recharging. And the storage caps do not reside on or at the "output stage" of the amplifier, they are a portion of the power supply on the input side of the amp, before the pre amp or driver stage. The actual output stage is a very different circuit and at the other end of the amplifier, almost (bi)polar opposites is more like it. You've not described why the ps caps would drain, what would "empty" them or how they would recharge or what part current plays in sound reproduction so you've pretty well given a halfassed answer to a non-existent question.  "Ok so i'm not a great typist. and in fact, that has little to do with the point I was making and yes, it was a shorted wire but I was speaking to his concern for resistance." I sorta expect posts that make some kind of sense, OK? And, if that is actually what you were speaking to, you should have done a much better job of it. You have so little of this right that what you've posted is not much help and could easily confuse anyone reading your stuff. "I only have a combative nature when self-important pseudo-intellectuals attempt to make themselves feel even more important to those who aren't as experienced as they are at the expense of someone that was trying to help." Nah! Nuck's right, you're a prik. You've decided to insult me rather than carry on a conversation about what you posted that was either in complete error or so toatlly assbackwards that it made no sense. That is what I initially responded to but you thought it best to insult me. Instead of discussing what I had asked, you became a prik. This is the second thread you've done that on. Second out of what? two? "Instead of trying to justify what you don't know, you might ask.."hmmm I wonder if he actually might know something I don't" you arrogant a$s." Why would I ask myself that when it's quite obvious you don't have much of an idea about any of this audio stuff? You have just enough sh!t between your ears to be quite dangerous in fact. You've been provided an opportunity to discuss this rationally though you replied to a thread that had its problems resolved six months ago - and the problems have nothing to do with resistance as you describe it - but instead you decided to be a prik. And a rather stunningly dumb prik at that. "Then maybe you can have a coherent discussion on the topic instead of you making things up to justify your pre-conclusions." I'm sure you've seen someone say that on another forum you've trolled because coming from you it's ROTFLMF'ingAO funnnnneeeeeeey!!!!! Why not try to do a post without the personal insults, eh? You won't survive here long if you don't. No brag, just fact. . |
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