First Speaker Setup...
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New member Username: DroctagonPost Number: 1 Registered: Sep-07 | Hi, I'm not sure which would be a better bet for a smallish (13'x13') room that has a fair bit of furniture (bed/desk/shelving) in it: Paradigm Studio 100s or Studio 40s w/ PW2100. My only options are Paradigm and B&W (live in a remote location) and I'm pretty much settled on the Paradigm. I'm just not sure which set of speakers would best suite my needs. I listen to a lot of bass heavy music (pop, reggae, hip hip, soul, etc), so while I initially thought of the Studio 100s (go for top of the line if you can, right?), I figured the Studio 40s with a sub like the PW-2100 might be a better bet? Thoughts? Amp selection is just as barren here...NAD, Rotel, Bryston, and not much else. My dealer has the Cambridge line coming in at the end of October. Would the Cambridge Azur 840A (I'm thinking of just an integrated for now...will watch movies on occasion with this setup, but have no intentions for a 5.1 setup anytime soon) be overkill for the Studio 40/PW-2100, and should I look lower on the chain of Cambridge amps like the 640A or 740A (guess I'll know more when I can actually hear them)? What are some used amps (via Audiogon) I should be considering for these speakers, spending no more than $1200ish? As for a source, I have a heavily modded Music Hall CD-25...but I'm more interested in computer audio. I have a Squeezebox 3 on the way, and I'll be listening to FLACs. I'm considering the Stello DA100...would it be sufficient for the Paradigm speakers and possibly the Azur 840A? I'm not really sure the ratio one should be spending on speakers : amp : source. So tentatively I'm looking at a Paradigm Studio 40 + PW2100 // Azur 840A // Stello DA100 setup...thoughts? Suggestions? Thanks! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8797 Registered: Dec-04 | Wow, Matt. Are you timid about buying used? There are a lot of Mac's out there. |
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New member Username: DroctagonPost Number: 2 Registered: Sep-07 | As far as speakers go, I'd like to buy used (just feel kind of leery of getting used speakers...plus the shipping costs ((I've explored this)) to my location would be astronomical). Sadly it makes more sense/I'm forced into buying locally...and Paradigm and B&W are about all I have to choose from. I don't really have a problem buying a used amp/DAC however. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11374 Registered: May-04 | . Just don't buy an amplifier that weighs as much as your speakers. So much for a Mac. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8800 Registered: Dec-04 | Matt, Paradigm and B&W ain't the worst choices in the world. Ain't like the choices at Box store. THe new 684/685's are being reviewed very well. Paradigm's Studio line are very capable, although some of the v3's are better than tghe v4's, it seems. Does this dealer have anything out in the back? Like trades? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 495 Registered: Jun-07 | Matt- I have heard the new Studio Line on NAD and Bryston, and I must say, bang for your buck the Studio 60's are still the speaker to get in that line. Perhaps them with a Paradigm Ultracube 10 sub(can be had for 900-1000 cdn). Unless your looking to spend less money. In that case go Studio 20's and either an Ultracube 10/12 or the large PW2200. Thats just my opinion. The studio 40's are the weak point in that line, due to the cabinet measurements. Never heard Paradigm on Cambridge, but can say they sound great on NAD and Bryston, and hear Rotel can do them justice as well. Matthew the first version (V1) of the Studio series were the best ever, like Nuck said, does he have any older stuff in the back? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 503 Registered: Dec-06 | I can vouch for the Rotel/Paradigm studio 60 combo, Nick. I love my kit! And I didn't break the bank to get here. BUT, I ain't doing a lot of pop, hip-hop or soul over here. Rush we can do. Diana Krall we're ok with as well. Bob Marley at The Roxy is pretty live in my living room. Hip-hop? I don't think the 60's are going to give you the bass you're looking for. I think a sub's going to be in order. But in my mind, the same could be said for most speakers and hip-hop. |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 504 Registered: Dec-06 | Then again, in a 13'x13' room? |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5396 Registered: Feb-05 | I owned V1, V2 and V3 and have to disagree with Nick the V3's Paradigm Reference speakers were much better than the V1. Also the PW subs aren't the most articulate...the 2200 is especially bad. I would look at the Studio 60 with the Ultracube or better yet a Hsu sub. For amps Rotel and PAradigm have some synergy...their integrated isn't very powerful however so perhaps an audition with a Cambridge or NAD may be in order. Obviously if you can swing a Bryston that's the way to go. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 496 Registered: Jun-07 | Art- The 2200 i was just thinking for RAW slam, it isnt the most accurate. I was thinking Hip-Hop in mind.lol. The Ultracube is much faster and more accurate indeed. Never heard the HSU, but I hear good things. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2117 Registered: May-05 | My first impression is that the Studio 60 will overpower the room. You'll have too much bass, therefore muddying up everything. The Studio 100 will make this worse. These speakers need a good amount of room to breathe. Especially considering that they'll most likely get placed pretty close to the corners due to the small room. I love the Rotel seperates and Studio 60 combo. I sometimes ask myself why I didn't go that route, but then step into my room and get reminded. I recommend that combo 99% of the time, but it just won't be the right system in this room IMO. In this instance, I'd go with the Rotel integrated and Studio 20. I think they're better than the Studio 40. Art said (If I remember correctly) the 20's were more cohesive, and I agree. When mating them up with a sub, the 20's make more sense to me than the 40's. If you can afford a Bryston, by all means go that route. I assume you're probably looking at the B60. Its like the Rotel on steroids. It improves on the Rotel in every way. The differences aren't subtle, especially on the Paradigm Studio line. If you're sold on the Studio 60 or 100, don't get an integrated amp, Bryston B60 included. They don't have enough power to get things going with the Studio floor standers. If it were my money, here's what I'd get, assuming this falls within budget - Bryston B60 and Paradigm Studio 20, paired up with a good sub. I haven't heard Paradigm subs too many times, but wasn't thrilled with them when I did hear them. I'd look elsewhere. Think REL, ERA, Totem or Martin Logan. Hsu if you're running low on money. B&W also pair up very well with this gear, but I prefer the Paradigm sound a lot more. Many will disagree. Its about preference. Not a fan of the Music Hall gear, sorry. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 497 Registered: Jun-07 | Rotel/Paradigm rock, but I wouldnt count out the NAD/Paradigm combo, a lot of dealers in my area carry both, just for the match up. It is also a very good pairing. I dont think either one you can really go wrong. Bryston of course as Stu and others state, will rock them all. If it is in the budget I would still give the Paradigm subs a listen, their entry level stuff leaves a lot to be desired for the money but once you get into the Ultracube/Seismic series they start to perform very well for the price. Not as good as REL and ERA. IMO ive never been a fan of anything I have ever heard from Martin Logan, but Ive never heard the subs, just speakers. The 20's and a sub should sound nice. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2119 Registered: May-05 | "IMO ive never been a fan of anything I have ever heard from Martin Logan, but Ive never heard the subs, just speakers." I don't like their speakers either. They just don't sound right to my ears. Their subs are a different matter. Very quick, deep and powerful. At first they don't sound like they go too low or have a lot of power. That's because they get rid of a lot of bloat and flab. After you hear something else next to them in an A/B, you realize how much garbage other subs are putting out. The same goes for the rest of the subs I mentioned. While they may not be as entertaining on movies, with music, there's no comparison. I'm pretty sure Martin Logan's entry level subs are cheaper than the rest I listed, and can be found in more places - Magnolia inside Best Buy has them. |
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New member Username: DroctagonPost Number: 3 Registered: Sep-07 | I'd like to be as knowledgeable as I can about what I'm looking for/what to expect when having a formal audition...the salespeople at the Paradigm dealer seem nice (I'll have to look into seeing what they have for older stock in the back at a discount as was suggested), but I don't want to get smooth talked into something I don't need...so thanks kindly for your comments so far, they're appreciated. Unfortunately I'll be forced into having my setup contained in this relatively small room, or smaller yet, for the foreseeable future. Does that pretty much rule out floorstanders from either Paradigm/B&W then (i.e. Stu mentions the Studio 60/100s need room to 'breathe', which they won't have in my environment)? I'm thinking I'd like to conserve space in my room as it is, and that's part of why I was leaning toward the smaller Studio 20/40s (+ stands?). The Bryston amps are priced a little out of my league at this point, sadly. I'm not sure how to go about talking down the price of the speakers/amp, either. The Paradigm's are carried by the dealer who stocks Marantz/Bryston and soon to be Cambridge Audio. The other dealer in town has the B&W's and NAD/Rotel gear. I haven't exactly made many sizable purchases (in my early 20s) so far, so I'm sort of unsure how to go about this. Would it be sensible to try and talk down the price of say the Studio 20s + sub from the one dealer, and then do the same at the other dealer for a NAD/Rotel integrated amp? Or do dealers usually only lower their prices if one buys lots of gear/a full setup? And so the Studio 20s are a better bet than the 40s hey? I guess I just naturally assumed the higher up the product line I go, the 'better' sound I'd be getting for my money. But if you guys think the 20s are a better bet, I believe you (of course I'll still give both a listen to discern the difference for myself too). I presume I'll have to get stands...on the Paradigm site I see the Studio 20s atop the J-29 stand, and while I can't find much info on pricing for Paradigm brand stands, I found one sight quoting the price of the J-29 at $350 US??? Wow...I hope I have other options (or might consider enlisting my old man to help me build my own...). I hadn't looked into subs a great deal (again, painfully limited options here), but I'll likely go with a matching Paradigm sub...I'll investigate the Ultracube 10. Thanks again! |
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New member Username: DroctagonPost Number: 4 Registered: Sep-07 | Also, perhaps I'd be better served asking the source questions on a different forum than the speaker one, but what do you guys think about my possibly going for the April Music Stello DA100? Will it be of the same ilk as the Paradigms, or should I look elsewhere for a DAC (as mentioned I've gotten into listening to FLACs almost exclusively now...my modded Music Hall CD-25 has been collecting dust for some time...)? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 505 Registered: Dec-06 | That room size, Matt, I would shy away from floor standers. And the Studio 20's sounded fantastic when I auditioned. I just prefer the looks of a floor stander. My room size needed the 60's too. Go listen to the 20's. A nice pair of stands and you're a chevelle....you're off. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2121 Registered: May-05 | No one can tell you what is better. That's up to you to decide. I like the 20's better. Some may like the 40's better. But don't assume one is better strictly due to price. I was throwing the Bryston B60 out there because I thought if you were looking into the Studio 100 and Rotel integrated amp, that the Studio 20 and Bryston B60 total price may be near the same price. Correct me if I'm wrong - Rotel RA-1062 - $600 Studio 100 - $2800 Total - $3400 Studio 20 - $1000 B60 - $2400 Total - $3400 Maybe my numbers are off. The stands will add to the overall cost, but I'm pretty sure you can get good stands for a good deal less than $350. Also, don't forget the cost of cables. I'm not saying to go crazy, but get something good. See what the dealers carry and suggest. We'll give you feedback. But, its a sensitive subject. Take the arguements that'll ensue with a grain of salt. As far as a discount goes, don't be pushy about it. Ask in a kind way. If you buy the amp and speakers together, a lot of dealers will give you a break. 10% is the standard discount if they're willing. Don't worry about asking questions in different areas of the forum. Its your thread. Ask whatever you want right here. Most of us look into the different areas, so we'd just be following you around. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 740 Registered: May-06 | Use a couple or three concrete blocks stacked under each speaker until you can upgrade to stands if you need to. Putting small wood tiles under the front of the speakers can provide tilt so you can experiment with that aspect of placement. Magnet wire and RCAs at Radio Shack for ICs, magnet wire for speaker cables is a really really cheap solution. It's what I use, click on my name, this solution is listed in my profile. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/accessories/342576.html |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8805 Registered: Dec-04 | Mike, as I read down this thread a few posts, that was gonna be my suggestion for MM as well. Perfect time, Matt seems capable and qualified, let's hope Matt is into it. Those cables are rather amazing, and if they work for Matthew, that would free up some money that Matt might not have considered before Stu reminded us all. Check that out Matthew, let us know. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2122 Registered: May-05 | Then again, in my theoretical mathmatical equation, I forgot about the subwoofer. But, you never know, he may not need one in the room he's got. 13x13 is not a big room, and may be a bedroom - he mentioned bed, desk, and shelving. Matt, Don't worry about matching the sub to the speakers. Subs not need to be matched and aren't voiced, so to speak. But, the sub should be equally as good as the speakers. For speakers that pride themselves as being fast, a fast sub is needed. You're not going to need a monster sized and powered sub, if at all. Your room is on the smaller side, and the stuff in it takes up a ton of volume. If you're intent on the Paradigm or B&W floor standers, you're going to underwhelm them with an integrated amp. They need far more current and a stronger power supply than the integrated amps here can swing. They've got very low impedence dips, and are erratic in this regard. The power supply of the integrateds isn't up to the task. I still stand by my B60 and Studio 20's recommendation wholeheartedly if it can be done financially. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2123 Registered: May-05 | One other thing - I'm assuming you're not going to be able to crank up the stereo to insane volume levels too often. Early 20's, small room now and for the forseeable future, leads me to believe that you live at home or at college. The Bryston/Studio 20 combo will sound better at lower volumes than the Rotel/Studio 60 or 100. How oftem are you really going to open up the system before everyone else around is annoyed? It also has a very good headphone section, which is a very underated thing. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8811 Registered: Dec-04 | Excellent point, Stu. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 5 Registered: Sep-07 | I'm heading back to the Paradigm/Bryston dealer tomorrow to have a better look at the gear. I don't recall seeing a B60 there (just the B100, and separates that were way out of my league, price wise). Considering they charge $4K Cdn (more than twice what I was hoping to spend on an amp) for the B100, I wonder what the B60 goes for there... Funny how as a Canuck I'm looking into buying Canadian made gear, and will end up paying a premium for it compared to my American neighbors... I guess I neglected to mention that yes, this rig will be set up in my bedroom. Looks as though it will in fact be the Studio 20s I end up with at this point. I simply don't have the ability to stretch my budget for preamp and power amp separates for the more expensive floor standing speakers at this point...oh well. Considering my speaker setup is a ghetto Logitech computer 2.1 setup, anything I end up with is going to be a revelation at this point. I was initially looking at somehow having the Studio 100s as the focal point of my rig (the bigger, the more expensive, the better? My logic is pretty flawed I know...), without having done any research/asking any questions about their performance in a small environment with what I now know would be underwhelming amps. I don't blast my music to deafening levels either, no. My music will be played at moderate to quiet levels (even with the hip hop...but I still plan on going after a sub to handle my bass needs). I'm living at home presently, and don't think my family would appreciate the house rattling to the beat of my music. Is it really sensible to spend $2400 US as Stu suggested on an amp, only to drive $1000 US speakers? If the Studio 20s really would benefit that much from an amp 2.5x their price, then I'd certainly consider it. I just have a hard time processing the idea of spending that much more on an amp than the speakers themselves... Everything I've read over the years about Rega equipment leads me to believe their signature sound would be RIGHT up my alley. The Rega Mira 3 has me intrigued. I don't know about/understand a lot of the speaker/amp specifications and power requirement info...would the Mira have sufficient power to drive the Studio 20/40s effectively? If they do I'd like to give the Mira some serious consideration, unless I'm doing the Paradigms a disservice by doing so. http://www.rega.co.uk/html/mira.htm http://www.paradigm.com/en/reference/speaker_only-specification-26-1-2-13.paradi gm For as many Paradigm owners as there are out there, I've had a hard time finding information about synergy between such amps as the Brystons and Regas with the speakers I'm looking at. To me I'm going to be spending a fortune with all the equipment I'm considering for this rig, and I know I'm supposed to trust my ears for passing judgment, but I'll more than likely be buying blindly here...which is okay with me (as crazy as it might sound to some people). For interconnects, I've got two pairs of Audiogeek Nitrogens (made by a Head-Fi.org member) and a pair of VH Audio cryo'd Pulsars that I quite like. As for speaker cables, that magnet wire option sounds mighty tempting, so I'll have to check it out. I wish I wasn't a believer in cables making a difference (they have in my headphone rig), but 'settling' even for a pair of Signal Cable or Blue Jeans speaker cables is something else I'd probably look at too. Thanks once again for your input guys...I'd be lost without your help. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5404 Registered: Feb-05 | Here's a thought, Rega Mira 3's and Rega R3's or R5's. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 6 Registered: Sep-07 | Knowing that I have no understanding of the technical side of power requirements, would the Mira 3 be adept at driving the Paradigm Studio 20/40s, Art? Or would I be better served springing for the Bryston B-60 (who's headphone output looks mighty interesting...if it's to my liking I could unload my Headamp GS-1, which would lighten the load of the B-60 purchase considerably)? Part of the reason the Rega's intrigue me is their strong sense of PRaT, which I value highly. I'm not especially analytical when it comes to my listening; as mentioned I do like a refined and accurate reproduction of the original recording, but if it is flat and lifeless (too neutral/cold/sterile) then I just can't get involved...I'd sacrifice detail if it meant having an involving/engaging and warm/liquid smooth sound as the Rega's appear to have. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2126 Registered: May-05 | Matt, Rega is great gear. I own an Apollo and was planning on adding a Mira 3 and R5 speakers until I stumbled upon my B60. I could only afford the B60 used. As to whether or not it'll drive the Studio 20 or 40, I don't know. I think it shouldn't have any problems. But then there's the question of synergy. I don't think they'll sound bad together by any means, but I don't know if they'll be the most synergistic match either. Rega has a unique presentation. Some love it, some just don't get it. It can be polarizing yet very few if any people will argue that it isn't very good at what it does. It focuses on the music, not the equipment. It doesn't try to sacrifice that last bit or any bit of musical flow for so-called hifi stuff like imaging, soundstaging, last bit of detail, and so on. Its a music lover's system, not a system lover's system. I'm not trying to push Bryston down your throat. I love the Rega sound and what it does, but this is why I went with a B60 over a Mira 3 and a Naim Nait 5i (which takes PRaT and 'flat earth' audio to the next level) - - Its more transparent. Its sonically a lot harder to pick out of a line up than a Mira 3. - Synergy is very important, probably more important than any other aspect to get the sound right. Bryston has a far greater range of options when it comes to matching up speakers from a synergy standpoint. I wouldn't have any problems pairing up Rega speakers and components with a B60. Rega wouldn't match up very well with a number of options that the B60 gives me. - Bryston sounds a lot closer to Naim and Rega than a lot of people think. I brought my B60 into my local Naim/Rega dealer's shop. We all loved it. It never seemed out of place synergistically or any other way. Compared to Naim, its missing that very last bit of PRaT. It has about 99.9% of it. But it does things the Naim and Rega doesn't do. The only criticism, and he was admittedly "reaching" was the B60 "is a little too imagey" meaning it sacrificed that last 0.5% of PRaT for a little more imaging and spacing. - Bryston also has a 20 year transferrable warantee. Think about it this way - If you're 23, the B60 will be under warantee until you're 43. And when the warantee is up it doesn't mean it can't be fixed for a realistic price. How's that for an investment? This isn't just a paper warantee that when the time comes to fix it, everything is excluded somehow. Its the real deal. Rega is very well built, but doesn't have the same warantee. Is it supid or overkill to pair a $2400 integrated amp with a $1000 pair of speakers? IMO not really. If and when your preferences change, the B60 should fit into more systems better than the others. If in 10 years you decide you're tired of what your system sounds like, the B60 will be more than good enough to show you the differences between other speakers and sources. It'll also still have 10 years of warantee left. If its the B60 that isn't right, the resale value will be very good - how comfortable will a buyer feel when buying a used product that has a lot more warantee time left than a new product that has the standard 3 years? Again, I'm not trying to push the B60 down your throat. Just because it works out perfectly for me doesn't mean it will for everyone else. It has its detracters like everything else. If you have a Rega dealer within a day trip's distance, its definitely worth going to hear it. Bring some of your own music, and make some plans for the rest of the day. You may walk out with the perfect system for you and drive straight home because you can't wait to set it up. If you're buying a Mira 3, buy Rega speakers. That's really the best way to go. They have a great synergy and obviously were designed to pair up together. A Mira 3 and R5, R3, or even R1 speakers is an awsome system. It'll also save you a good chunk of change to buy the most important part of any system - more music. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 7 Registered: Sep-07 | I made the mistake of going to the dealer today pretty close to closing time. The gentleman I had been talking with previously was occupied with another customer, so some young guy helped me out. After briefly going over my scenario and stating I was eying the Studio 20s or 40s, he instinctively said 'dude the 40s are so much more than the 20s' and didn't have a whole lot to add about the difference between the two beyond that general statement... He wasn't able to give me an estimated cost on the B60 (B100 and separates are all they carry indeed...but they CAN get the B60 in...I presume it'd be expected I'd buy it though...), telling me I could come back next week and he'd have a price for me (they charge $3500 Cdn for the B100). Strange. Kimber cables seem to be their brand of choice for the Paradigm level speakers there. I didn't get a price, but I think if I can save money on this system it might be on cables...might go the magnet wire/Signal Cable route instead. I'm going to call the gentleman I was dealing with before to inquire about a formal audition in the coming days; maybe he'll have some more answers. While it looks like I'll get to hear the Bryston series first hand, I might end up buying the B60 blindly (which is why I'm considering buying something like the Mira 3 unheard as well...). What I tried to get an answer for, but the salesman seemed unable to give me a definitive answer, is how the sub integrates into the system, connection wise. The Ultracube 10 specifically. It has an RCA out from the reciever, but where on earth do I plug this in into the integrated amp, B60, Rega Mira, Cambridge 840A or otherwise? Thank you sirs. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 749 Registered: May-06 | Matt, Audiogon may provide a cheaper used option for you if you read Stu's post carefully. I would trust what Stu is telling you. You could move, expand into a real media / audio room and not have to upgrade your amp as you upgrade your speakers. Not to mention the better SQ now. BTW it will cost you about $10 to try the magnet wire options for ICs and speakers plus tape. Not too much down side eh? If you decide to go that route send me a PM and I can hook you up with some .999 pure silver wire. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2132 Registered: May-05 | The B60 is very rarely on Audiogon. Its by far the hardest Bryston product to find second hand. I've got a few more thoughts, but have to cut this short due to work. More later on today... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2136 Registered: May-05 | Matt, It seems odd that he couldn't give you a price on the B60. As far as I know, every manufacturer/distributer gives the dealer a price sheet for everything made by the brand. A Bryston dealer should have a price sheet that has the price of every Bryston product. I'd deal with the original guy rather than the younger one from what you've said. If you're serious about buying a B60, let the dealer know. They should be able to get one in to audition without making you pay for it up front. If they think you're wasting their time or just want to hear it for kicks, then they may not get it in. If they know you're serious about buying it, there shouldn't be any issues. Its not like its a pair of $100K speakers that they can't afford to get in. The Bryston sound is very consistant from top to bottom, just as most good audio manufacturers products are. Its not going to be much different than what you've already heard. Obviously the stuff you heard is better, but the B60 isn't very different from it. If at all possible, you should really make it a point to track down a Rega or Naim dealer. They make great stuff that you may very well be interested in. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 8 Registered: Sep-07 | I was about to head back down to the Paradigm dealer to talk about the B60 and them possibly getting it in for me to audition, when I checked up on another similar thread to this I started on AudioCircle... A poster suggested that because of the poor room acoustics (square, small, busy environment) being my biggest challenge to get good sound, as well as suggesting that Paradigms aren't all they're hyped up to be (lackluster/lifeless performance), that it simply isn't worth investing heavily into this setup (considering I'm set on getting Paradigms/staying in this room for a good long while). He suggested 'settling' for a Cambridge Azur 640A amp rather than the Bryston is in my best interest (like floorstanders, I'm probably not doing the Bryston justice for the use it'll be seeing?). If only a Rega/Naim dealer was close enough for an audition... I'll be buying the amp/DAC blindly (if I don't go for a Cambridge or spring for the Bryston)...I've heard good things about and had it suggested that I investigate the Outlaw RR2150 amp. Looks tempting, especially for the price. Off to the Paradigm dealer to see what more I can find out. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 527 Registered: Jun-07 | Matt-I totally disagree with that guys suggestion that Paradigm are lackluster and lifeless and that your best interest is to settle for Cambridge rather than the Bryston. I guess your ears will tell you what you think. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 9 Registered: Sep-07 | Argh, the Paradigm dealer was closed today for some reason. I did get to hear the B&W 685s today through a Rotel/NAD (some giant Rotel 7.1 surround reciever with an NAD T514 as source). Sounded too forward and much to lean for my liking...was also quite sibilant. I think the other poster's comments about my over-investing in the system were directed more at the room I'll have my gear in. The room my setup will be in simply won't be conducive to having whatever components I buy sound their very best, so I think his rationale was why bother spending that much more money when the room is likely going to be quite detrimental to the quality of the sound regardless of what I purchase. Makes sense, I suppose...I don't know. I still have my sights set on the Studio 20s (wish I could just hear them with the gear I'm curious about...any day now I hope) with accompanying sub (likely the Ultracube 10, for space considerations if nothing else). Since I'm pretty touchy when it comes to sibilance (who isn't) and a bright or forward sound in general, so I might look into getting a tubed DAC to take the edge off those digital recordings I'll be listening to...an Mhdt Labs Paradisea or a Scott Nixon tubed DAC have piqued my curiosity. The Paradigm guys (from previous visits) had seemed pretty adamant that anything less than their Kimber speaker cables they also carried would be unjust for the Paradigms...are the magnet wires still a safe bet? I don't really want to cut corners, but any way I can save a few bucks here and there without hurting the setup would be nice... |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 530 Registered: Jun-07 | Your magnet wires are fine, your sales guy is trying to make a F$#! load of money off of you. Cables is where a lot of audio stores, when your not looking, take u long and hard on the cable purchase.lol. Not saying cables are not important. But don't worry so much about it. Rotel is a very forward and on the bright side type of sound. Doesn't sound like the Rotel sound is what your looking for. Try some warm gear, like NAD and Anthem. The paradigm guys should be able to set you up with a Paradigm/Anthem demo. Tell them to swap their Kimber cables with something cheaper and see if you can hear the difference.lol. Cheers. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2142 Registered: May-05 | "Matt-I totally disagree with that guys suggestion that Paradigm are lackluster and lifeless and that your best interest is to settle for Cambridge rather than the Bryston. I guess your ears will tell you what you think." I couldn't agree more with that post. Keep in mind that anything can sound bad if its in the wrong system. This is what system synergy is all about. I've heard some great components and speakers sound awful because of the pairing. Can anyone honestly say that Naim is lifeless? I've actually hear a Naim component sound that way due to poor matching. Same for Rega, McIntosh, and the list goes on. Everyone will have a different opinion and be willing to spend your money different ways. Don't let anyone tell you what is worth it, what isn't, what sounds bad, and what sounds good. The best way to get your salesman's attention is to make an appointment with him. Tell him what components you want to hear. Bring in your own music. While there's no obligation to buy, make sure you're prepared to spend the money if what you hear is what you're looking for. Don't waste the guy's time. I keep bringing up the Bryston for several reasons. It'll outlast everything else in the system. From an investment perspective, why not put more of the overall budget into the piece that'll be the most flexable by fitting into the most changes? Speakers will come and go. They'll almost always have a lot shorter lifespan than an amp, especially a Bryston. Your room size and shape will change several times, and will play a big role on what speakers work best. Sources come and go. Formats change constantly. CD players have a short lifespan. By the time they break down, they're pretty much obsolete. It seems DACs change about as often as computers do. Has amplification really changed that much? Bryston is capable of fixing just about anything they've ever produced. In some cases, it sounds better than it did when brand new. If a Rotel amp breaks down in 10 years, it won't be worth the cost to get it fixed if it can be fixed. In 10 years, you'll still have another 10 years of warantee left on a Bryston. Forget about sound quality for a second. Think about those points. No one has a perfect room. Every room is compromised in one way or another. No half way decent system in any real room is ever going to sound its absolute best. This shouldn't mean scrap the whole idea. If your room isn't worth a Bryston, why would it be worth a Cambridge? Why not go with a boombox? I'm not trying to be sarcastic. I'm willing to bet you can easily hear the differences between them, even in your room. Forget everyone else's opinion, mine included. Your's is the only one that counts. Its your money and system, not our's. |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 532 Registered: Jun-07 | Exactly. Stu makes very good points in his last post. Especially the comment about a Bryston, and how they hold their value, due to Warranty and amazing build quality. I have seen my dealer re-sell 5 year old Bryston amps for almost full price they retailed for, because its a Bryston.lol. A 5 year old Bryston is practically considered new to most who know what a Bryston amp is. A 5 year old Rotel sells for 30 percent of what it retailed for originally. Look at it like its a car, perhaps I will piss a lot of people off on this next comment. But its true so deal with it.lol. Think of a Bryston like it is a Japanese Engineered vehicle, like Honda, Nissan and Toyota.It holds its value, and as long as you keep it clean and cool you shouldn't have to put any big repairs into it. The Rotel is a solid performing North American car, warranty stinks, always have to fix it after 5 years, and it isnt worth anything after 3.LOL!!! Come on people have a sense of humor. Anyway, if its in the Budget consider the Bryston, if its not and you want warm sound, consider NAD/Anthem/Arcam. Cheers. Stu- Although partnered with Ford, Volvo is Germain engineering at its finest. Nice car.  |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2147 Registered: May-05 | Volvo is Swedish  . I'd more liken the analogy to a Chevy vs Porsche. A Chevy is a decent reliable car. It doesn't last forever, and doesn't have the best resale value, but it gets the job done adequately. As there a such thing as a Porsche that's too old? One that isn't worth fixing? One that has a bad resale value? |
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Silver Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 533 Registered: Jun-07 | LOL ahhhhhhh damn. Shows how much I actually know about vehicles, I even asked a fellow worker, and he said German. I wouldn't call Rotel a Chevy...lol..give it at least a little respect. HAHA. I would say a Bryston is a porche. Although I rather have a Bryston. |
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Silver Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 767 Registered: May-06 | MM, the magnet wires will work and to prove it to yourself you have to spend all of $10. If you buy the Kimber first can you return them for cash back or store credit? Risk the $10 then if you think it sucks you're out what? BTW I am confident you will be happy with them. Just be careful with the handling. They are not made to be fiddled with constantly so take that into consideration too. As to Bryston, I agree with Stu, it will last and you like the sound, but the 60s won't give you all you heard on the 100s. Here's an example of what I mean. I was running a recapped rebuilt Carver 400 wpc and loved it. A friend dropped an 80 wpc MAC 6100 integrated on me which I used amp only and it kicked my Carver's but sound quality (SQ) wise. I never put the Carver back in. I ended up buying a MAC 7300 Amp at 300 wpc (my speakers like power). If I did not buy it I still would have left the 80 wpc MAC in place and not put the Carver back in. The MAC was a MAC and there was no way anything else was going to sound like it. |
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New member Username: DroctagonSaskatoon, SK Canada Post Number: 10 Registered: Sep-07 | I'm just not sure I can spring for the B60 at this point, financially. Would an NAD integrated such as the C352 do the Studio 20s justice? It's been suggested to me that I invest in a Paradigm X-30 high pass/subwoofer control unit to optimize my system, directing the bass to the subwoofer and taking the load off the main speakers. What is your guys' take on this? I went back to the Paradigm dealer today, and while the only notable amp brand they carry aside from Bryston is Cambridge, I see that the Cambridge amps don't have a main amp in on the back (thus I couldn't use the X-30 w/ Cambridge, but I can with NAD as it has these inputs, for example). The salesman was pretty high and mighty about the new lineup of Cambridge, but I couldn't even audition one...as they don't even have them in stock. Weird... So again I'm pretty much set on the Studio 20s, just need to match them with a sub and settle on an amp (and at this point, I'll be buying it unheard...I know this is a major no-no, but it looks like that's how it's going to go in my situation). So do you guys feel a Paradigm Studio 20/Nad C352/Ultracube 10 setup will mesh well (or will the NAD even have the power neccessary to drive the Studio 20s)? In reading archived threads I've found that Paradigm/NAD sounds to have a synergy up my alley, which along with affordability, is why I'm leaning in the NAD direction now)? Again it's been suggested to me I invest in not only the X-30 control unit, but upgrade to a Seismic 10...but in doing this, I'm essentially doubling what I'd otherwise be spending on a sub in the Ultracube 10. Or should I still consider the X-30 with the Ultracube? Still a little lost on where to go... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2168 Registered: May-05 | I'm not really sure how the subwoofer stuff works or what would be best. The only way is to hear them set up. The NAD 352 is a very good integrated amp. Its won a lot of awards, and deserves all of them. Personally, I'm not the biggest NAD/Paradigm fan. I like both companies individually a lot. They sound very good together, but it isn't my cup of tea. I personally prefer the Rotel/Paradigm combo far better. But that's all personal preference. The best bet is to hear them yourself. The new Cambridge gear is supposed to be very good. You may want to wait until they get some stuff in and hear it before you buy anything. If its as good as people are saying, its definitely worth waiting to hear it and compare against the competition. |
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