Big speaker.. Small room
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New member Username: Flame_rosePost Number: 4 Registered: Sep-07 | Can somebody shed some light on the disadvantages and challenges of having a large floorstander in a small room? |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 593 Registered: Jan-05 | Placement is everything! Ideally you want as much free space 'dedicated' to your speakers. Behind them, around them. My room is a bedroom (a small one) and quite honestly isnt too great. Thankfully my new uni room is actually going to be bigger! I used to have a bigger bedroom in the house and it was a bit better. But the room was cluttered with cabinets etc. Leave space for the music to spread out is what I'd do. How small is your room? What kind of sound are you after-one where you get an equal soundstage from a proposed listening position or a general sound just fills the room? |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 903 Registered: Nov-06 | large speakers in a small room can produce issues in placement, like J. Jarvis pointed out. But, in my experience, large speakers in a small room will likely overpower the room in the bass department. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11302 Registered: May-04 | . There can be several problems, the most likely being standing waves. Standing waves happen when the speaker tries to reproduce a wavelength that cannot fit easily within the room. As you walk through the room you will quite literally hear the bass peak in one location and disappear a few feet away. However, big speakers don't always produce deep bass so this may not be as much of a problem as with a speaker that can produce very low, very long soundwaves. Placement of the speakers and the listening position can go some ways toward ameliorating the problems of standing waves but a small room typically doesn't allow the flexibility in placement that can actually solve the problem. The next problem is short reflection times. These can work to your advantage or diadvantage depending on several factors. Once again placement of speakers and seating will help but cannot solve the problems. I would read the Wilson set up guide for the best possible chance at good sound in a small room. http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html This method usually results in speaker placement somewhat closer to the walls than most other methods of placement. The other problem with big speakers in small rooms will be the additional cost of acoustic treatments and their acceptability in a small room. . |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 908 Registered: Nov-06 | Jan, I read somewhere online that you can, if you wish to, get full 20Hz reproduction in a small room due to the nature of sound propogation. The article stated that bass freqnency waves can effectively "fold" on themselves. This goes against the standing wave theory AFAIK. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11303 Registered: May-04 | . Not at all. You need only one quarter the dimension of the wavelength to actually manage that frequency in an enclosed space. (Remember most modern rooms will have 8-10' ceilings.) A standing wave occurs when the pressure wave is reflected back from a boundary and meets the next wave somewhere in the room. For a given room dimension and frequency the room may have as many as two or three standing waves of varying degrees of severity. Gavin, go toss a pebble in a bucket of water (a squared bucket would be best) and then place "standing wave" in a search engine to find a written description of how this works. . |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 909 Registered: Nov-06 | Thanks for clarifying that. |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 140 Registered: Jul-07 | Dimensions of room and speaker, plus speaker design might lead to more useful information. Posters can only speculate based on your general description. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11305 Registered: May-04 | . Yeah, so you give a general answer. What a way to get you number of posts up, wiley. If you know nothing, just admit it and go away. Oh, yeah, that's right; you know so little you don't know you don't know anything. Very sad. Dennis Michael Wiley Silver Member Username: Skeeterhead Posted: Jan is correct. You can go now, wiley. . |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 594 Registered: Jan-05 | You just love to enphasise that one dont you Jan. Lmao. Half the time Jan I struggle to understand what you're on about but it usually sounds technical enough to agree with! And most the time Im the one asking questions as opposed to answering them. One thing I'll do just when I go to uni for a bit of fun is post a pic of my setup  |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 142 Registered: Jul-07 | A general answer will be of little practical usage to the poster. How much do you really think that bull you posted is going to guide the poster? Rhetorical question: I already know your answer. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 917 Registered: Nov-06 | actually, it may help quite a bit. The explanation he provided to me helps illustrate the propagation of waves, and how they interact with each other. This is something that the OP may never have heard of before. It is a much better explanation than what you provided. When I lack familiarity with a subject, I ask questions, research, or avoid it entirely as not to provide bad information to the OP. |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 145 Registered: Jul-07 | Of course. That's because if Jan told you sh!t smells sweet, you would eat it. Wake up man. I could not provide a definitive answer with the limited info provided by the poster. Can you? |
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Silver Member Username: StryvnPost Number: 483 Registered: Dec-06 | Because the answer is too technically difficult for you to understand does not mean it's too difficult for all of us, wiley. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11314 Registered: May-04 | . OK, wiley. Let's say the speakers are Wilson Maxx and the room is 12X10X8'. Give us your answer. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 919 Registered: Nov-06 | actually... I provided as best an answer that I could with the information I had to work with and with my experience. I told him that he may have an issue with the room being overloaded if placement is not taken into careful consideration. This is useful to the OP, letting him know that placement issues may exist, and Jan explained why, furthering the explanation with the additional explanation directed at myself. I think that is pretty darn direct for a general question. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11316 Registered: May-04 | . "Dennis Michael Wiley Silver Member Username: Skeeterhead Post Number: 145 Registered: Jul-07 Posted on Thursday, September 20, 2007 - 08:20 am: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Of course. That's because if Jan told you sh!t smells sweet, you would eat it. I have never told anyone that you don't stink, wiley. Eat me! . |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 922 Registered: Nov-06 | As I posted in another thread, I think Wiley was finally outsmarted by his Tivoli radio. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11319 Registered: May-04 | . Hey. Hey, wiley. Heeeeeey, wiley. wiley!!! Ferchrissake! Pay attention, wiley, we're doing business here no matter where you have your head. While you're at this computation stuff, do a pair of Legacy Whispers in a 14'3" x 15'7" x 8'7" room, with a pier and beam foundation. Two doors and three windows. Central HVAC with floor vents. Sparsely furnished. With a 50" TV in an entertainment center. And a single REL Stadium III subwoofer placed in the rear corner. There's a two foot soffit that drops down at the rear of the room and the seating position is behind this soffit. Single drywalled interior. (You can figure the numbers for double drywall too, just to show us you care.) A thin area rug on the floor and a cat on the back of the sofa (which is not the main listening position). . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11320 Registered: May-04 | . Or, if it's easier, just tell us about your gigantic Radio Shack speakers in your single wide mobile trailer. How's your Mom feel about having to push her walker and oxygen tanks around those suckers? Bet she yells at you, huh? |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 147 Registered: Jul-07 | Or, if it's easier, just tell us about your gigantic Radio Shack speakers in your single wide mobile trailer. How's your Mom feel about having to push her walker and oxygen tanks around those suckers? Bet she yells at you, huh?" Jan Vigne If this doesn't tell you what a despicable creature Vigne is, nothing will. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 596 Registered: Jan-05 | Jan, I didnt think you was that nasty.. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8702 Registered: Dec-04 | I find it rather appropriate. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11323 Registered: May-04 | . Is that your answer, wiley? I thought you were going to give us specifics about the interface of room and speaker if only you were provided details. There's the details. And that's your answer?! WHAT HAPPENED? Or is this just another one of those "premature clipping" things? Dennis Michael Wiley Silver Member Username: Skeeterhead Post Number: 128 Jan is correct. AGAIN!!! 'nuff said! You can leave now, wiley. . |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 597 Registered: Jan-05 | If you say sorry to Wiley, Jan I'll give you a brand new pair of completely un-used still boxed vintage preserved Rogers Ls3/5a. Not a scratch. Not a hint of ageing. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11326 Registered: May-04 | . What is this? Some sort of trick? How do I know you have new 3/5a's? I'm gonna need some proof. Send 'em out and then we'll talk. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzAustralia Post Number: 1600 Registered: Nov-05 | You've done it now James, Jan's got lots of witnesses. and you put it in writing! Jan, make sure you get insurance with the shipping even if you have to pay for it. Brand new Rogers 3/5a's are pretty hard to come by. Anyhow Jan, why not give 'em to Wiley. You never know - his personality might change if he gets a real pair of speakers.  |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11328 Registered: May-04 | . ROTFL, Rantz. ROTFL. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 598 Registered: Jan-05 |   Ye I do wish. Its a good job there isnt any binding contract here. Truth is I dont have any proof because its just something I wish I had. I guess it sort of broke up the Wiley rant. I wonder if there are any brand new pairs of ls3/5s around!! It's one of those things I HAVE to try, that and the t-amp. (not togeter, necessarily). |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 599 Registered: Jan-05 | Holy what the heck!! Look at those prices... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROGERS-LS3-5A-SPEAKERS-11-OHMS_W0QQitemZ290161360209QQcmdZ ViewItem?hash=item290161360209 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Rogers-LS3-5a-BBC-Matched-Pair-15ohm-White-Belly-99p-NR_W0 QQitemZ110169186160QQcmdZViewItem?hash=item110169186160 Mighty fine condition! |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 150 Registered: Jul-07 | "Or, if it's easier, just tell us about your gigantic Radio Shack speakers in your single wide mobile trailer. How's your Mom feel about having to push her walker and oxygen tanks around those suckers? Bet she yells at you, huh?" Jan Vigne On behalf of the disabled and poor citizens you constantly demean and insult, no way will you drive me from this forum a$shole. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 601 Registered: Jan-05 | I like your sterness to stay Wiley! |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 154 Registered: Jul-07 | Vigne has no idea. He's so used to people like Nuck and Gavin genuflecting to him. He is the King of the Bull. I'll give him that much. But when he insults the helpless, that's crossing a line. Take care. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11333 Registered: May-04 | . Give it a rest, wiley. This one isn't playing in Peoria. You insult the helpless by pretending your not mentally insufficient. Now, answer the question. Or, can you? You asked for specifics and I gave you specifics. Pick either system or both, your RS speakers don't count since they can't do bass. Don't change the subject, don't blubber. Just answer the friggin' question you wanted to answer so badly a few posts up. If you can't ... Dennis Michael Wiley Silver Member Username: Skeeterhead Post Number: 128 Jan is correct. AGAIN!!! And you can go now, wiley. Please, stay away this time. . |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 157 Registered: Jul-07 | "Or, if it's easier, just tell us about your gigantic Radio Shack speakers in your single wide mobile trailer. How's your Mom feel about having to push her walker and oxygen tanks around those suckers? Bet she yells at you, huh?" Jan Vigne |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11334 Registered: May-04 | . Here's the thing, wiley. You can either be helpful and answer the questions you demanded be answered. Or, you can stop being a pain. Or, you can admit once again, "JAN IS CORRECT" and then leave. But this latest mumbo-jumbo of yours is getting old. Believe me I both blame your mother for carelessness and extend my sympathies. I would have kept the puppies and drowned you. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11339 Registered: May-04 | . Stop posting, wiley. You've ruined enough threads for one day. |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 160 Registered: Jul-07 | And you haven't, of course? What a sap. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11340 Registered: May-04 | . What an answer. You got nothin', eh, wiley? |
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Gold Member Username: Thx_3417Bournemouth ... Post Number: 4552 Registered: May-05 | Jan Hmm, question! Will it or will it not work if you where to use an active crossover like the DCX2496 and addressed the loudspeaker with a different frequency cut-off point wouldn't that reduce the standing wave phenomena yes or no or maybe? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8727 Registered: Dec-04 | Coon, we have seen your room. The answer is yes, on several counts. The active XO will seperate the frequencies fully, due in part to the XO and moreso due to the seperate amps to run the drivers. I have not seen the unit that you mention, I am looking at some Behringer XO's at the moment, before moving to proper units. Also note that these XO's are balanced(as most are) and taking advantage of that will lower te noise floor by 6db if the XO's are transformer based. There is a hell of a lot to like about active XO's. Look at the specs for the units you are considering. There should be timers, debounce adjustments and a lot of other stuff in there. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11345 Registered: May-04 | . "Will it or will it not work if you where to use an active crossover like the DCX2496 and addressed the loudspeaker with a different frequency cut-off point wouldn't that reduce the standing wave phenomena yes or no or maybe?" Use a crossover where? "Address the loudspeaker"? Hellllo, loudspeaker! OK, got the Norton stuff out of the way. I don't unerstand the question. What are you trying to do with the crossover? And why would you assume it would affect standing waves? Are you trying to roll the low frequencies off before they reach a point where standing waves occur within the room? Well, yes, if there are no low frequencies, there probably won't be standing waves. But, depending on the dimensions of the room, you might have to roll bass response off at 60Hz to avoid standing waves. What's the rate of roll out in your filter? 12dB will place the first octave signal just beneath useful levels. Figure that room/pair gain will extend the low frequency response of your speakers a bit beyond their semi-anechoic manufacturer's spec and you'll need to severely curtail the response of most "full range" speakers in the average size room in order to eliminate the signals that would create standing waves. I'm not at all certain why you would spend the money for a speaker that could produce reasonably deep bass response and then intentionally reduce that bass response with a filter. The wiser choice would be to buy speakers that fit the situation. Maybe I'm missing something from the question. I really don't understand this response either; "The answer is yes, on several counts. The active XO will seperate the frequencies fully, due in part to the XO and moreso due to the seperate amps to run the drivers." Nuck, you seem to be speaking of using the crossover as a replacement for the passive Xo's normally found inside a speaker. Using an active Xo as a crossover at 2.5kHz will have no affect on standing waves occurring at 35Hz. Once again, maybe I'm not understanding what you wanted to say. But seperate amplifiers will have no affect on standing waves either since this is a problem of room dimensions vs. low frequency response wave length. This comes down to ten pounds of potatoes in a five pound sack and an active filter with separate amplifiers does not change the size of the container. All you can do is use less potatoes. . |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2033 Registered: Feb-04 | Can somebody shed some light on the disadvantages and challenges of having a large floorstander in a small room? I'm not sure why the thread evolved into a flame fest about standing waves, given that the question was about speaker size and not frequency response. I gather someone with tiny sats and a big sub would also face the same frequency response issues. Nevertheless, waves don't need to "fit" into a room. I can hear low frequencies fine and my ear is tiny. High frequencies bounce off off walls too; they are just easier to damp than lower frequencies. But all this is a red herring. The very first answer about speaker placement is the greater issue relative to speaker size. |
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