What ever happened to BIG three-way speakers?
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1273 Registered: Oct-04 | When I was a kid, BIG three-way speakers dominated the mainstream electronic stores. What ever happened to those designs? C-V! still makes some http://www.cerwinvega.com/VE15F.php , but why was this design approach abandoned for the most part? Was it simply an aesthetics thing, or is was it the move to bookshelf/satellite/subwoofer combos, or was it something else? Is there a fundamental flaw in that sort of design? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1274 Registered: Oct-04 | This DIY project from PE caught my eye a while back http://www.partsexpress.com/projectshowcase/goldenboys/index.html |
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Silver Member Username: StefanomVienna, VA United States Post Number: 914 Registered: Apr-06 | Big is out for a number of reasons. Aesthetics is probably pretty high on that list, but there are design reasons as well. Narrower cabinets help reduce diffraction effects and improve imaging. Smaller cabinets are easier/cheaper to brace and damp than larger ones. Sub/sat adds to that the advantages gained by separating the bass from the midrange and treble reproduction, as the ideal spots to reproduce bass tends not to be the ideal spot for imaging/soundstaging. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11198 Registered: May-04 | . There are several reasons for the virtual disappearance of "big three ways". A few are listed above. Other than those reasons, when they are cheap, big three ways sound like week-old pounded dog crap run over on day one, left in the sun for a few days and then rained on for a few hours. Otherwise, they are still available. They just are no longer cheap. For good reasons. . |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1275 Registered: Oct-04 | How do you really feel Jan? Were there other serious two-way designs prior to the LS3/5a? Was it the LS3/5a that paved the way to modern speaker design? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11199 Registered: May-04 | . Sure, there were plenty of two way speakers before the 3/5a came along. I only go back so far in audio history but the earliest Klipschorn was a two way speaker called a short horn. JBL, Altec and others from the late 1940's through to the 1960's built two way speakers which were very successful. You must remember all of this began with a single driver covering the "full" range and two way speakers were a huge advance in the late 1930's and came into their own after WWII. Not long after Vilchur and Kloss introduced AR's sealed enclosure designs in the mid 1950's they were building two way speakers. Kloss' design of the KHL Six was the best selling speaker in the US in the early 1960's and the Six was a (not quite) ten inch two way. His later designs for the original Advent Corporation were all two way and the Large Advent again made him the most successful speaker designer in the US. The 3/5a came to market in the mid 1970's along with similar designs from Spendor and Rogers. While never commercially overwhelming during any one year the 3/5a has held on to become one of the most successful speakers in audio's brief history. A similar design which then went on to influence other designs is the Celestion SL6000 from the early 1980's. With its all aluminum enclosure and sophisticated two way design, it paved the way for many of today's high end two ways such as the Wilson Watt. The 3/5a, and other classic speakers such as the Quad "57", the original Magnepan, the Lowthers, and so on, have all influenced speaker design. Unfortunately, IMO, these speaker designs have not influenced amplifier design all that much and amplifier designers still never seem to discuss ideas with speaker designers. The introduction of the acoustic suspension enclosure with its lower sensitivity more or less coincided with the introduction of output tubes capable of higher wattage (the classic McIntosh MC275 [75 watts per channel in stereo with 6550 tubes] is a design from 1961) and the transistor which made possible higher power at a lower price. Other than that, the two worlds seem to develop in a vacuum from each other. To make matters worse, speakers manufacturers today seem more interested in same-as-all-the-others designs with only a few companies pushing the boundaries of the art. . |
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Bronze Member Username: WattsssupBarrie, ON Canada Post Number: 62 Registered: Aug-06 | Good history lesson, JV. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1276 Registered: Oct-04 | Thank you Jan, that's what I was looking for. Why have most designers/companies limited their two-way arrays to ~6.5" mid/woofers? Does a 8" driver potentially compromise too much of the mid-range? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11202 Registered: May-04 | . The simplest answer is the length of the signal's pressure wave. As the signal's wavelength grows smaller with increasing frequency it will eventually reach a peak to peak length smaller than the driver's surface diameter, at which point the reproduced signal becomes increasingly directional. The average two way crossover point is somewhere around 2,000-2,500Hz which would still allow a 6.5 inch driver to perform with adequate dispersion. As the tweeter is brought in it's dispersion is far greater than that of the larger low/mid driver and this discontinuity can result in placement problems and listening position issues. For the most part the choice is not made due to the bulk of a larger low/mid driver as the "speed" of the driver has little to do with its size. However, you should understand the difficulty in creating a large diameter cone driver voiced similar to a one inch dome tweeter. http://www.audiogearreviews.com/tech/theory/system_design/system_design.asp . |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8494 Registered: Dec-04 | I love this hobby. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4729 Registered: Dec-03 | When I first took an interest in HiFi the general word was that two-driver sealed boxes had a better chance of avoiding phase and dispersion problems than ones with 3+ drivers and/or bass reflex ports. But big things with lots of drivers looked impressive and could shake the floor of the shop on demonstration. There were nevertheless very well respected 3-way speakers such as the Spendor BC 1. http://www.spendoraudio.com/bc1history.htm Perhaps is was an LS3/5a on steroids. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 8500 Registered: Dec-04 | Will we have to refer to them with an asterisk, JA? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4731 Registered: Dec-03 | I see no forbidden words there, Nuck.... ....? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11204 Registered: May-04 | . The Spendor's were an unconventional three way which was really a simple two way system with a super tweeter. They were vast continents and oceans away from a Cerwin Vega. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1277 Registered: Oct-04 | JA, you a baseball fan? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1278 Registered: Oct-04 | It wasn't just C-V!, it was virtually every "mainstream" electronic company that I can remember like Techniques, Kenwood, Pioneer, Sony, Hitachi, etc. They all produced those giant three-ways, usually packaged with a rack-system of some sort. Those rack-systems really spelled trouble for component hi-fi, don't you think? In the late 70s-early 80s, it seemed like every household had one of those rack systems. I grew-up fairly impoverished, and I remember being a bit envious of those things. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4733 Registered: Dec-03 | CM, Ah, yes, the steroids. Thank you. I don't remember any speakers having to pass a drugs test. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5306 Registered: Feb-05 | There were a good number of very good multi way speaker systems in the 70's and early 80's. None of which I can recall came as part of rack system. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1279 Registered: Oct-04 | I said they were BIG, not necessarily good. I was 12, what the heck did I know? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11206 Registered: May-04 | . "I was 12 ... " How old I feel. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11207 Registered: May-04 | . The two times I've really, really felt old. The first time a Pl@yboy bunny was born in a later decade than I was. And the first time a Presidential candidate was born in a latter decade than I was. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1280 Registered: Oct-04 | The fist time a girl called me sir, I felt like I needed a drink. |
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Gold Member Username: WingmanaliveA pic is worth 1000 posts!! Post Number: 9762 Registered: Jun-06 | Hey I still use an old three way in my living room. Marantz. Always enjoyed it. In my younger years the towers were all the rave. When cd's hit the market I was in my mid teens? Exciting times. "High compliance woofers" and "liquid cooled dynamic tweeters" were selling systems left and right. I can see the appeal for the LP lovers out there/here. However you learned to enjoy music is most likely how you'll want to experience it today. And some of my favorite actors as I was younger are dying off day by day. I'm old enough to be my son's babysitter's father. THAT makes me feel old. We all have something to fall back on to keep us young. If not then I suggest Christopher's idea lol.  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5309 Registered: Feb-05 | Wait until your my age and guys your age are calling you sir!!! Time warp!!! Think I'll have another...... |
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Gold Member Username: WingmanaliveA pic is worth 1000 posts!! Post Number: 9771 Registered: Jun-06 | Lol. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 4735 Registered: Dec-03 | I read somewhere about a three-driver speaker whose second tweeter that was not connected to anything. It was there to make the whole unit qualify as professional, not consumer, for sales tax purposes. That link to Spencer Hughes's comments on the BC1.... Some months later BC1's were fitted with an amplifier mounted in the back panel and the 4001G super tweeter added. This addition was for purchase tax reasons, but it did have two extra gains. Firstly it improved the overall dispersion characteristics, secondly, from the broadcasting angle, it made the detection of any 625 line breakthrough more easily detected. |
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New member Username: Dmckean44San Diego, CA Post Number: 1 Registered: Sep-07 | I've always been a big fan of 3-ways and have owned them all my life. I started when I was 12 with Pioneers because they were so cheap. Then a few years later when I had a little bit of money I bought a pair of Advents. I liked the Advents at the time but not so much if I try to listen to them now. Then when I got my first real job I bought a pair of Klipsch KLF-20s, I still like to listen to these occasionally. Now I have a pair of PMC OB1s that I absolutely love! |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 892 Registered: Nov-06 | you can still buy big 3-way speakers... klipschorn la scala cornwall watt/puppy just to name a few. But, like jan said, they are going to cost you. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1309 Registered: Oct-04 | I said BIG, not G I G A N T C. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyBrooklyn, NY United States Post Number: 1310 Registered: Oct-04 | I ...sorry. |
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Silver Member Username: GavdawgUpstate, New York Post Number: 901 Registered: Nov-06 | LOL... ok... the heresy? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11299 Registered: May-04 | . You can still buy bug five way speakers. I saw a pair at the Hispanic Fiesta mart in the TV area. Stood five feet tall and they were asking $199. I didn't ask if that was per speaker or the pair price. |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 141 Registered: Jul-07 | You forgot to mention those Jentzen tri-axles. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 11306 Registered: May-04 | . They aren't that big since they have to fit on the package shelf of a purple '92 Honda Civic. |
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Silver Member Username: SkeeterheadPost Number: 146 Registered: Jul-07 | But they were a hell of a break through. |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2034 Registered: Feb-04 | I use 'em in my HT. Gigantic ones too. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 5403 Registered: Feb-05 | Break out the horns!!! |
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Gold Member Username: PetergalbraithRimouski, Quebec Canada Post Number: 2039 Registered: Feb-04 | You got that right. |
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