Bookshelf Speaker Faceoff 2007 @ Audioholics

 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1261
Registered: Oct-04
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/bookshelf-speaker-faceoff- 2007
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 905
Registered: Apr-06
Interesting results to be sure.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wattsssup

Barrie, ON Canada

Post Number: 55
Registered: Aug-06
Great link Christopher. Very informative.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11165
Registered: May-04
.

"Which is better?


A?


Or, B?


A?


Or, B?"



Were they testing speakers or selling speakers? Sorry, CM, I've seldom found anything of value at Audioholics.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8416
Registered: Dec-04
Thanks, Chris.
Good info for new buyers.
 

Silver Member
Username: James_the_god

Doncaster, South Yorkshire England

Post Number: 586
Registered: Jan-05
I could have come up with a better conclusion than they did..


Perhaps they should have picked 4 'professionals' from this forum.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sukhoi30

New Zealand

Post Number: 157
Registered: Jun-06
A Resounding YES to what Jan says
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1262
Registered: Oct-04
I agree there wasn't too much value to this "shootout", but I give them credit for trying.

The problem was their results were all over the place, and the field was too spread-out price-wise.

It would have made more sense to have:

A sub-$200 shootout

A $200-$500 shootout

A $500-$1000 shootout

And a $1000+ shootout

...and then a shootout between the winners from each category.
 

Gold Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 5277
Registered: Feb-05
Not impressed, much like the folks at Sound & Vision, I don't think these folks have a clue.
 

Silver Member
Username: Leonski

Post Number: 186
Registered: Jan-07
I'm on record as being a big fan of 'double blind' testing, but the above 'test' is ridiculous.
What were they thinking? What does it 'prove'?
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 857
Registered: Nov-06
"The MC-6C's continued their excellent performance, though they also continued to fatigue my ears a bit."

Statements like that are a little counterproductive, and are indications to me that the reviewer is trying to hawk a certain brand.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1264
Registered: Oct-04
Stereomojo did a good job with their integrated amp shootout http://www.stereomojo.com/SHOOTOUT2007INTEGRATEDS.htm (I thought I posted this in this thread already, must be the booze).

They're planing a "small speaker shootout" http://www.stereomojo.com/Speaker%20shootout%20nominees/SpeakerShootoutNominees. htm , I suggested a few speakers (care to guess which?), why don't some of you guys chime it with your favorites for this battle royal.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8442
Registered: Dec-04
Psb Alpha.

If this hangover won't go away I am gonna have to try Scotch.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1265
Registered: Oct-04
Gatorade & Activated Charcoal Tablets Nuck.

If that doesn't work, then try the scotch.

Have you ever tried Bowmore 12-yr. http://www.bowmorescotch.com/html/12yearold.html

$25/bottle in NYC & worth every penny.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 2081
Registered: May-05
"If this hangover won't go away I am gonna have to try Scotch."

The best thing for a hang over is a shot. When I was bartending in college, I used to open the bar at 10AM Saturdays. I didn't even want to smell alcohol due to the previous night's excesses. I'd come in, punch in, chill a shot of Yukon Jack, and sit down. 15 minutes later I was a new man.

It wasn't too easy keeping it down though. I'd always make sure I did it near a garbage can. Not that I ever needed it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rysa3

Houston, Texas

Post Number: 203
Registered: Nov-06
Well read that too; In general, they do accurately describe some of the known issues among these various speakers.

I am not sure ANY of these speakers are particularly good overall frankly. My comment is that speakers should only do whatever it is that they are suppposed to do well, or not at all.

Bookshelfs trying to get into lower extension frequencies usually reserved for larger cabinets/woofers and more power almost always fail in that task.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8450
Registered: Dec-04
I dunno,Marc.
It depends how low is low.
I heard a pair of Psb25's driven by Bryston/Linn that played well into the low 30's.
 

Silver Member
Username: Chicomoralessxm

Dutch islesCaribbean

Post Number: 162
Registered: Feb-07
Personally, audioholics is not my favorite forum lol. Like what CM suggusted a price range speaker shoot would have been more ideal. Once a holis has a shoot out for sure you always know they will have their sponsers brands on the list
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 858
Registered: Nov-06
I believe I can locate a review where they loved the little usher, and they pretty much trashed it there.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 859
Registered: Nov-06
"As far as I'm concerned, these are THE budget bookshelf speakers to beat."

That was the closing sentence from the audioholics review of the usher audio s-520, which was ripped apart in the shootout.

Here is the review:
http://www.audioholics.com/reviews/speakers/bookshelf/usher-audio-s-520-bookshel f-speaker-review

I have found lots of the reviews contradictory, leaving me to take them with a grain of salt.

However, RBH and Axiom reviews are almost uniformly positive, even when loaded with backhanded comments like the one I made previously, nothing outright negative is said reguarding RBH and Axiom.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8456
Registered: Dec-04
More advertising space would have tightened up the midrange.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1266
Registered: Oct-04
HA!
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavdawg

Upstate, New York

Post Number: 860
Registered: Nov-06
Exactly Nuck... Audioholics hardly ever says anything negative about manufacturers that advertise with them, and rip on every little flaw that other manufacturers have. I am certain that they would find some minute flaw with the Wilson Audio WAMM that only a dog would hear, and make it out to be a fcuking Greek tragedy.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kevincorr

Fairbanks, Alaska Usa

Post Number: 243
Registered: Jul-07
Stereomojo: Methodology by Art Smuck.
 

Silver Member
Username: Chicomoralessxm

Dutch islesCaribbean

Post Number: 165
Registered: Feb-07
That sounds like audioholics the back axiom and Rbh to the death, hey i dont blame them back those who back you lol
 

Silver Member
Username: Quinn

Post Number: 163
Registered: Aug-05
Amazing how different the Ascend Sierra reviews are at other places. It really doesn't help Audioholics' rep as biased for their advertisers when their review is that different.

http://www.soundstageav.com/onhifi.html

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0907/ascend_acoustic_sierra_1.ht m
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8502
Registered: Dec-04
A very good example, Quinn.
 

Silver Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 148
Registered: Jun-04
add this one

http://www.affordableaudio.org/
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1283
Registered: Oct-04
Biased or not, I like http://www.affordableaudio.org/ , but I think my favorite is http://www.6moons.com/ .
 

Silver Member
Username: Chicomoralessxm

Dutch islesCaribbean

Post Number: 171
Registered: Feb-07
definately check out affordable audio.
 

New member
Username: Timbo2

Post Number: 1
Registered: Sep-07
Marc,

"I am not sure ANY of these speakers are particularly good overall frankly. My comment is that speakers should only do whatever it is that they are suppposed to do well, or not at all.
Bookshelfs trying to get into lower extension frequencies usually reserved for larger cabinets/woofers and more power almost always fail in that task."

So did you hear the Sierras and were not impressed? I had a feeling that's what you are referring to, and that they might be a little overhyped.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8532
Registered: Dec-04
Overhyped speakers???
Naw...
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 923
Registered: Apr-06
Needless to say, Sierra isn't the second coming of Christ, nor is it going to supplant your subwoofer as your primary source of deep bass response. Its measured bass response seems on par with some of its competitors along the lines of the NHT Classic 3 and the Paradigm Studio 20 in terms of depth, although distortion is notably higher in that area. This of course is somewhat understandable given that the Sierra is a smaller speaker. Physics is physics.

The interesting part to me is that Ascend seems to have given up a bit of neutrality for the Sierra in comparison with its predecessors. This of course is now making some of the old Ascend supporters finally realize that FR is not, in fact , the only component of deciding whether or not a speaker is good. While I'm sure they took much pleasure in touting how flat their speakers measured, they sure ticked off enough people here trying to claim how much better they were than anything else on the market by virtue of that one graph.
 

New member
Username: Timbo2

Post Number: 2
Registered: Sep-07
"Its measured bass response seems on par with some of its competitors along the lines of the NHT Classic 3 and the Paradigm Studio 20 in terms of depth, although distortion is notably higher in that area."

Are you saying the Sierras have muddier bass? If yes, do you base that on hearing them yourself or through some sort of specs you've seen?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 924
Registered: Apr-06
That is based on simple objective data.

http://www.soundstageav.com/speakermeasurements.html

THD+N @ 90dB Average Output

Ascend @ 50Hz : 72dB distortion for 80dB Output
Paradigm @ 50Hz: 59dB distortion for 84dB Output
NHT @ 50Hz: 68dB distortion for 84dB Output
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 925
Registered: Apr-06
Note that the Sierra at that point is putting out over 30% distortion. Not exactly something I'd really endorse running full range for anything approaching "spirited" listening.
 

New member
Username: Timbo2

Post Number: 3
Registered: Sep-07
Interesting...I wonder what 13db in extra distortion sounds like, how noticeable I mean. Doesn't seem like a good sign. Wonder if it's due to the 5.25" woofer size. Are the Paradigm and NHT models 6.5" models?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8537
Registered: Dec-04
SM, way to stir this pot a bit.

Quinn?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8538
Registered: Dec-04
Remembering, of course, that THD is more a measure of amplification than speakers, and is a moot point anyhow, as the most bastardized number since the number one.
And the noise factor is based on what?

Useless numbers for sales guys.

Try 'em and find out.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 927
Registered: Apr-06
Nuck: No one ever said that THD+Noise was the only determinant of speaker quality. However, like most measurements, it does tell you one or two things. And no, these aren't sales figures; these are figures from the NRC. Besides, where would we be if the pot didn't get stirred from time to time


Anyways, there are any number of people over on other forums claiming that these speakers don't need subs for music, and how their bass is so much cleaner than that of their subwoofers. I'd like some kind of objective data out there, so people actually know what these speakers can and cannot do. Running them full range at high levels is one thing they can't do well.

Timbo: It isn't about dBs, its about percentages; Soundstage provides a good explanation. If you drive the Sierra full range to moderately high volumes, a sizeable chunk of its output will be distortion. If you don't listen at loud volumes, then it doesn't matter. If you use them with a subwoofer crossed at about 80Hz, it doesn't matter *as much*.

As far as woofer sizes go, all other things being equal, a 6.5 will move more air than a 5.25, but that doesn't automatically guarantee anything. Nonetheless, the final results speak for themselves. The Ascends put out more than 30% distortion under the specified conditions, whereas the Paradigm puts out under 10%. If running these speakers full range and at high volumes is on your list of things to do, the Paradigm has a significant advantage, period. And if you can't hear that a speaker is putting out that much distortion, you probably shouldn't be spending $800 on a pair of bookshelves in the first place.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Brooklyn, NY United States

Post Number: 1284
Registered: Oct-04
Oy Vey!

I can see the smoke-signals going up as I type.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11216
Registered: May-04
.

I'm gonna guess most people never imagined their speakers were producing 10% or more harmonic distortion. They would be appalled if they knew their 0.001% receiver was running through a speaker with 10% or more T.H.D. Just goes to show ya.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8545
Registered: Dec-04
Steve, I ain't gonna jump up and say that THD is important to anyone, but I will say that it shouldn't be since ABBA.
Trash numbers from a THD fairy.

But, hey, it got me a quarter!
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 11218
Registered: May-04
.

"But, hey, it got me a quarter!"


What did you do? Put a blown tweeter under your pillow?
 

Silver Member
Username: Leonski

Post Number: 194
Registered: Jan-07
Isn't it true that the ear has variable sensitivity to distortion based on frequency?
5->10%@50hz is much easier to take than 2%@5Khz, no?
and 10%@5Khz is intolerable.
This is speaker distortion, not amp distortion.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 928
Registered: Apr-06
Leo: There are some papers that indicate that given that our hearing in general is less sensitive at bass frequencies, our ability to detect distortion is less also.

However, with the levels of distortion we are talking about (-8dB / >30%), along with the average output level it was taken (90dB anechoic), and the 10dB down point (roughly 50Hz), Sierra is not a speaker I would use without a good subwoofer, in spite of what some are saying.

Anyways, enough pot stirring for now.
 

New member
Username: Davidfab

Post Number: 9
Registered: Aug-05
Hi Christopher,

You bring up a good point here but there are a few things worth mentioning.

First off, the graph that you refer to is 90dB spl at 2 meters in an anechoic chamber from a single loudspeaker. This is easily equivalent to about 100dB output from a single loudspeaker in-room at 1 meter away, or 103dB output from a pair of speakers. It is also a swept sine wave source, in other words, about as abusive to a loudspeaker as you can get - and not reflective of actual music listening. (far too loud for most people)

Additionally, the graph posted is misleading and requires explanation... Because these measurements are taken in a true anechoic chamber and this is a rear ported loudspeaker, bass response in the port range is not correctly reflected in the frequency response measurement. Much of the bass output of the port is actually absorbed in the wall treatments. THD measurement techniques at the NRC have also changed since the B&W CM1 was tested (about 3 or 4 speakers ago) They did not inform me exactly what changed so I am not sure if comparing newer graphs to older ones is valid.

If you look at any recent measurements of rear ported speakers, you will see that the low end response does not match manufacturers specifications (usually not even close). For example, look at the B&W CM1 (http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/bw_cm1/) B&W's spec is -3dB at 55Hz while the graph indicates about -12, -13dB down at 55 Hz. A 10Hz difference. You will also notice that same huge jump in distortion at this frequency, the same with our Sierra-1 and also about the same level of discrepancy in the low frequency response compared to our published spec...

There is a very real explanation why the distortion measurement is so high at this frequency and why it increases so dramatically. As I am sure you know, as you approach the port tune frequency, less output is produced by the woofer and more is produced from the port. In fact, at port tune frequency, the woofer is barely even moving -- with almost 100% of output being produced from the port. As mentioned above, because this is a rear ported speaker and being tested in a true anechoic chamber (I believe tuned to about 50Hz) -- the majority of the output of the rear port is being absorbed in the 3-4 foot thick foam wedges behind the speaker and since there is barely any output from the woofer at all, all that is left to measure is pure noise (the graph is THD + noise). Try placing 5-6 pillows directly behind the port of a rear ported speaker --- where'd the bass go?

I have had a few discussions with some of the people over there regarding this, especially when it comes to including the output of the port in the frequency response measurements (simply a matter of turning the speaker around so the port faces the mic and then averaging this into the measurement) but their response was that since it is the same for all speakers, they are not willing to change. I don't agree with this though, as front ported speakers will provide better looking THD+noise graphs and deeper extension in the frequency response graph.

Here is a link to some deep bass torture tests of the Sierra-1 conducted by Craig Chase in a large room at 3 meters away:

http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=sierra45hzox5.jpg

Craig measured 90dB of output at 45 Hz with 2nd order disortion at 7%. Which is much more reflective of how the speaker is truly performing.

While I am all for crossing over at around 60Hz and using a subwoofer, for music listening I think many (even most?) will find the bass of the Sierra-1 cleaner and tighter (more musical) than many subwoofers. I know I do, as do hundreds of Sierra-1 owners. Personally, I haven't used a subwoofer in quite some time. Although I felt a sub was missing when I watched 300 last night. Definitely consider adding a sub for home theater usage...

I am not here to "ruffle any feathers", but there is a reason those distortion measurements are high and they are certainly not reflective of actual performance. Note: The NHT classic 3 you mentioned is a sealed speaker so all bass response is being reproduced by the woofer in the front and the Paradigm Signature you mentioned is front ported (the majority of port output will reach the mic before it is absorbed by the wall treatments). I would say that the only fair way to compare distortion between all three of the speakers is in a frequency range where the port is producing minimal output, from 100Hz on up. Due to the measurement technique employed, distortion and response comparisons at frequencies where the port tube is contributing to output are simply not valid.

Believe me, I wish the NRC did things differently as I use there measurements as one point of reference for calibration of our own engineering gear...

Hope you find this useful...
 

New member
Username: Davidfab

Post Number: 10
Registered: Aug-05
Christopher, my apologies, my post should have been more directed towards Stephen. Is there anyway to edit a post?
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 941
Registered: Apr-06
Dave: Click on "Your Account" by the Search feature.
 

Silver Member
Username: Stefanom

Vienna, VA United States

Post Number: 942
Registered: Apr-06
Good response, by the way. Certainly makes sense to me in any event.

For people that are curious, myself included, what kind of limits would you personally place on Sierra in terms of bass response/volume levels?
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8600
Registered: Dec-04
DF, thank you for dropping by to clarify things.
With a lot of bashing and carrying on, the music seems to be lost by the wayside at times.
The port issue comes up now and again, and your description of the port action is juuuust a little beyond my ken.
The driver is basically unmoving, and the port takes over? If you have a 'for dummies' version of this one, I need to read it.

Congrats on your successes so far, looking forward to all your new stuff.

Again, thank you for stopping by!Leadership by example.
I miss Tim, love the Lings.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Davidfab

Post Number: 11
Registered: Aug-05
Hi Stephen,

>For people that are curious, myself included, what kind of limits would you personally place on Sierra in terms of bass response/volume levels?

I would say that in most rooms, the -3dB point is in the low 40Hz range. I have measured -3dB at 39Hz in a few different rooms but the speaker was within 18 inches of the rear wall (subject to some bass reinforcement). The limitations as far as maximum output at low frequencies are fairly close to what Craig Chase measured. At 2 meters away, with a pair of speakers, I have measured about 98dB output with a sine-wave at 44Hz, with less than 10% THD. Maximum output will decrease rather dramatically below this frequency as the woofer is now unloaded (frequencies below port tuning). For a speaker of this size and in my experience, this is impressive. I should mention that this is with a sine wave. I should probably take some measurements with our pulse generator, which is closer to music or home theater listening but I have been somewhat lazy lately.

We do a few trick things in this woofer and the result is that the quality of the bass is very good, tight and "fast" (although I hate to use that term, but it is descriptive). A more technically correct term would be an exceptional transient response, which is why I feel many Sierra-1 owners are turning off their subs for 2-channel music; there is a more coherent and detailed sound. That is NOT to say that a quality subwoofer can not keep up with the sound quality, I am receiving reports that many can -- but they are not your typical large cabinet volume, wide-diameter ported subwoofers, which can knock a wall down, these generally sacrifice transient reproduction and phase accuracy to deliver such deep bass.

Personally, I want to try one those Fathoms ;)

Nuck -

>DF, thank you for dropping by to clarify things. With a lot of bashing and carrying on, the music seems to be lost by the wayside at times.

Most welcome -- and yes, so much bashing everywhere. It is the nature of forums though since we are not face to face. It is quite an experience when audio hobbyists who typically bash each other online meet face to face for the first time --- It is usually all hugs and high-fives (often followed by too much alcohol) I have seen it and been part of it many times now. Imagine how BORING the forums would be if it was all this is great, that is great, great post -- you are great, who wants that? The bashings, criticisms, complements, raves -- it is all good :-) Keeps things going and growing.....

>The port issue comes up now and again, and your description of the port action is juuuust a little beyond my ken. The driver is basically unmoving, and the port takes over? If you have a 'for dummies' version of this one, I need to read it.

That is correct, as you approach the port tune frequency, the woofer contributes less and port contributes more. At port tune, the woofer will be moving very little if at all, while it is at this frequency that the most air will be moving in and out of the port. At frequencies below the port tune, things start to change however, both woofer and port are unloaded and the woofer will act as if it is being used in free-air (no air spring to limit excursion) The neat thing about a ported loudspeaker is that because the woofer excursion decreases as you approach the port tune frequency, distortion decreases as well. Typically, the lowest distortion point for a ported loudspeaker (at least in the woofer bandwidth) is at port tune frequency because the woofer itself is barely even moving. This is one of the key advantages of a ported loudspeaker, and probably one of the most overlooked.

Here is a very good explanation with a diagram of how it works: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_5_2/cmilleressayporting.html

>>Again, thank you for stopping by!Leadership by example. I miss Tim, love the Lings.

You are most welcome. Yes, I was sad to learn that Tim was moving on. This is a brutally competitive industry and it is very difficult to just pay the monthly bills, not overlooking the fact that we must try and make a few dollars too. Tim and I had a rather infamous "public" feud, but we shared many very friendly emails behind the scenes about various things, from measurement techniques to the industry in general, I shared any advice I could offer. He is the genuine article.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 8621
Registered: Dec-04
DF, thanks for the link.
I think my sub is wooly.

Tim has gone underground for a while I think. Probably a good paying job with a firm, making sure that the college fund is up to speed.
You just know he is gonna show up again, though.
And yes, he is the real deal!
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