Hi everyone. I've inquired about this before, but am still a bit confused. I KNOW that a digital connection between my receiver and player means I am using the receiver's DACs and an analog connection means using the player's DAC's. That's easy to understand. BUT... If my speakers are bookshelfs and I use a sub, then by using an analog connection doesn't the receiver have to convert the signal to digital in order to extract info (below the receiver's x-over setting) to be sent to the sub THEN convert it back to analog to be sent to the speakers? Thus adding an additional DA/AD convrersion using the receiver's DAC's and elliminating any advantage the player's DAC's may have? The only advantage I see that an analog connection could have is if the receiver is just used as an amplifier with no sub crossover setting and speakers set to "large." What am I not understanding? Thanks!
I agree, with the caveat that you may still use a sub but set the mains to large (and the sub to L/R+LFE). If properly designed, then the signal going to the mains should have bypassed the extra conversion.
You're missing the point. Firstly, digital is perfect. Aww, sh!t, nobody much believes that line anymore. OK, try this one. If the converters in your receiver are better than the converter in your player, you would want to use the better converter; correct? Vice versa if the converter situation is reversed. Additionally, should the analog output section of your player be less than stellar, why put the signal through what amounts to a $0.50 IC when you at least have the $1.50 version in your receiver?
There are several reasons for using one connection to access the various sections of your system. However, you'll have to spend some time listening to music through the various combinations to decide which gives the best performance. If you don't want to go to that much work, just use whichever cable you already have that reaches to the right connection point. If you aren't listening, it doesn't really matter.
Sure, use the better DACs. But his point is that if you'll going to set speakers to small and split signals with a sub, then you're using the receiver DACs anyway. So there can't be any benefit in using the player's DAC as well. Use digital in that case.
Then you and I read the question differently. I read, "The only advantage I see that an analog connection could have is if the receiver is just used as an amplifier with no sub crossover setting and speakers set to 'large'."
Once you use any DSP processing in the pre amp/processor stages to set speakers to "large" or "small", you're going to run through the DAC's of the receiver. Not the DAC's which take the signal "directly" from the CD player's laser feed but the DSP processing units which establish speaker settings. The signal has to be in the digital domain to allow those settings no matter whether you indicate "large" or "small" speakers. Even if you set your speakers to "large", you do not obviate the signal running through DAC's somewhere in the receiver's signal path. There is no way around the signal being converted to analog, then to digital, then to analog, then to digital and so on. You can only control how long the signal stays in the digital domain. Modern processors don't just shut themself off when you indicate your speakers are "large". There is the potential for other processing in even the most rudimentary HT receivers nowdays. It is simpler to let the receiver run the signal through all the processors it employs than telling it to bypass the DSP processing. This "digital is perfect" and it won't screw with my signal is all too pervasive in all HT receivers today. Offhand I don't know of any receiver intended for HT use which won't send the signal through a DAC for DSP'ing somewhere along the line no matter how you set your speakers. The very act of setting your speakers will intiate the functions of the DSP and therefore a set of DAC's and possibly a set of ADC's will be in play.
However, if you are running the system in stereo and set the speakers to large, you still get to decide which converter does the better job for the actual conversion from the digital signal that comes off the laser. The processor which does all the DSP functions of speaker size, placement and roll-off are different chipsets than those which do the conversion from the player. I'm not certain any longer but I don't believe the two pieces even run at the same bit rate and sampling rate which would introduce some form of upsampling into the signal chain. However, since I don't pay that much attention to what is available in HT receivers, I could be wrong on this.
Nope, you're right. That's pretty much the way it works in combo rx'er. To give a real-world example, my 635 will only upsample on an analog signal, not digital (which of course makes sense), so some of the functions avail on my rx'er will only work if I use both connection types. I.E, I cannot use stereo if only an digital connection, and I cannot use Logic 7 if only an analog. I get all the functionalities avail if I use both connections. I use to think this was a way of making me buy more wire, but this thread awoke a chain of thought that paints a different picture...
"I cannot use stereo if only a digital connection..". That's very strange since I have both my DVD player and CD player connected via coaxial digital to my AVR 335 and am able to use Logic 7 with the digital feed from CD. Stereo is also fine with the coax digital connection. It should be noted that any time you use a digital connection coax,or Toslink you will activate the DSP of the receiver,pre/pro. In the HK receivers Logic 7 processing WILL in fact work with either a digital or analog connection, I tried this when I set mine up eventually and decided on the digital connection for CD which sounded better. The DAC in the CD player is a Burr Brown,very good but found that letting the receiver do the conversion sounded better, although marginally. There was also a more pronounced noise floor with the analog connection,although very subtle.
For the CD connection, I use "analog, surround off" on an h/k receiver, as well as mains set to large and sub set to also get the signal from L+R. It's possible that Jan is right and that the signal path for the main speakers goes through the DSP, but it's certainly not a given since it's not necessary.
The analog CD signal must go through the DSP to get the low frequency content for the sub, but there's no reason not to use the original analog signal for the main speakers (prior to DSP treatment) since they are set to large. I don't know how the receiver is designed to know if it does the right thing or not. It was certainly my assumption that it did.
I use the 6 CH DIRECT mode of my HK AVR430 for listening to CDs from a Denon 2910. The speakers are all set to large and cannot be changed on the receiver. You can set the speakers to small on the player, but if I leave everything to large is there no conversion or DSPing being done?
I can select any DSP I like from a PCM or LPCM stream to the receiver through digital, however if the signal is a Dolby Digital 2.0 stream for instance, I am limited to the Dolby DSPs or VMax, perhaps this is what Michael was referring to, if listening to music off my DCT this is the case.
Great stuff guys. Thanks! Here's my conclusion: If you are setting your front speakers to "small" and using a sub, then you should use a digital connection to avoid the extra DA/AD conversion the receiver must put the signal through in order to send info to the sub. The exception being if your receiver has lower quality DACs. It doesn't matter how good the DACs are in a player, if it is connected via analog and the front speakers are set to "small," because the receiver takes the signal and digitizes it using the receiver's DAC's in order to send a signal to the sub. So why not just skip the extra conversion and send the signal directly to the receiver in the first place? Happy listening!
Yessir Kano that is also a posibillity to run the RCA analogs from CD directly to the 6 Ch. in. HK receivers still have that annoying bug where the tone controls are defeated with the 6 ch. inputs and the sound is rather flat which is not ideal judging by the sound of some DVD-A titles out there a little adjustment is in order imo. HK's manual for the AVR 335 receiver states" When the front speakers are set to the large option and the surround mode is set to "surround off", or pure two channel stereo,when an analog signal source is present it will be routed directly from the input to the volume control without being digitized or processed.If you have full range front speakers and wish to remove all digital processing from the circuit path select this configuration." Well fellas there is the answer straight from the horses mouth. With an analog input no dsp is applied if the the speakers are set to small or large, however with the small speaker setting a sub is rather mandatory since the low frequency sounds will be routed directly to the sub and no low frequency sounds will be heard in the front speakers which without a sub would sound strange if the signal had frequencies lower than the cut-off point of the main speakers which could easily occur with some types of music. I have all my speakers set to large and turn my sub off manually when I listen to two channel music. The sub output from the receiver is an analog mono signal. Speaker settings are probably incorporated in the power mgt. circuit of the receiver not DSP since speaker settings are independent of source signal type(analog or digital). The sub output signal,which is also available with two channel analog stereo receivers which do not have DAC sets or DSP, is accomplished through a low pass filter which is constructed of discrete devices instead of ic's so the use of a DAC chipset would seem unecessary for this purpose.
"Yessir Kano that is also a posibillity to run the RCA analogs from CD directly to the 6 Ch. in. HK receivers still have that annoying bug where the tone controls are defeated with the 6 ch. inputs and the sound is rather flat which is not ideal judging by the sound of some DVD-A titles out there a little adjustment is in order imo."
Haven't experienced this, I think this would be the player's fault not the receiver's, or just the difference between analog and digital. I like the sound for music, and even use this setting with certain movies with pleasing results.
No. It's not the players fault, the tone controls are in fact defeated when you use the 6 ch. inputs and the resultant sound is flat and dull, not to my taste but of course this is a matter of personal preference.
Ahhhh. I think I learned something here. With an analog connection and using the 2 channel stereo mode, a "low pass filter" is used to send a signal to the sub (when the speakers are set to small and sub to on of course). Therefore, the receiver's DACs are NOT used. Right? If true, my above conclusions are incorrect. That would make sense because subs have low pass filters and I don't think they have DACs. Conclusion: When a signal is "filtered" it is not going through a conversion via the receiver's DACs.
Then again maybe not. Wow is this confusing. I must be totally dense. All I'm trying to figure out is the best way to get a signal from the player to the speakers with the fewest D/A A/D conversions and still get the best sound when using bookshelf size speakers and a sub. My bookshelfs go down to 50 so maybe I should just use "direct bypass" and forget about incorporating a sub at all when listening to music?
Remember, the example ER gave applies only to the HK line and specifically only to the 335 at this time. It is probably safe to assume the largest portion of the HK line of HT receivers operates in a similar fashion, but shouldn't necessarily be accepted as thruth unless proof is provided. This means the routing of the signal isn't always going to be a straight through-pass and judging from HK's language they make the exception known in order to draw attention to how they differ from other receivers on the market.
I would only take this to mean some receivers will run through DSP circuits and some will not. And, once again, remember the DAC used to place the signal in the DSP domain is probably not the same DAC that would be used for the digital to analog conversion from a CD player. I cannot say for certain since I am not in touch with how the market is working at the moment, but I would guess that a conversion to digital is done for any analog input signal to allow DSProcessing and the switch between "large" and "small" speakers is merely an either/or not an on/off.