Ok 2 use bi-wire wire on non-biwire speakers?

 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 80
Registered: Dec-05
Is it?

Bi-wire is all I have a the moment. Would it make any difference if I used the light or heavy terminations at the speakers?

Seems to me either should be just fine, but the heavier terms makes a bit more sense.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 733
Registered: Feb-05
what?

light or heavy as in how much it weighs?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 81
Registered: Dec-05
bi-wire has two speaker-end pairs, one light and one heavier. Normally, on a bi-wirable speaker, the lighter guage goes to the tops posts and the heavy to the lower.

My question pertains to which of the two to use when using a bi-wire cable on non-bi-wirable speakers.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Eld

Texas

Post Number: 66
Registered: Dec-05
Thicker gauge at both speakers and Amp/Receiver.

I would leave the lighter gauge completely off the system.

 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 734
Registered: Feb-05
I think I would know what a bi-wire speaker is paul. I have been around here long enough, and have had enough experience with them.

and no, that isnt what you usually do with a bi-wire speaker (using two differnt gauge wires). I have NEVER heard that. All the dealers that I deal with use a single gauge wire (MartinLogan, VA, Magnepan, B&W, etc. etc. etc)

and I agree with elderion, use heavier gauge wire if that is what you are asking.

 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 735
Registered: Feb-05
boy... is it just me or does good music sound especially good to me tonight...

I have Al Jarreau's "all I got" album playing and MAN does it hit the spot!
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 737
Registered: Feb-05
boy... is it just me or does good music sound especially good tonight...

I have Al Jarreau's "all I got" album playing and MAN does it hit the spot!
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 739
Registered: Feb-05
LOL! sorry for that double post, and my apologies if the response to the cables sounded rude.

are there any members that can confirm using different gauge wires? or is it just my dealer trying to sell more expensive speaker cables (one of them sells kimber)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 82
Registered: Dec-05
Didn't mean to insult ya, Gavin.

My wire is Nordost Solar Wind. It does indeed use two different size wires - actually it is not a difference of 'guage', as they are multiple-strand bundles.

At the amp-end, there is only one set of terminations, but at the speaker end there are two.

This would just be temporary, for auditioning; if I swapped out my bi-wirable speakers I'd sell the cable too and get single-wire cable.

Paul
 

Silver Member
Username: Gavincumm

New York USA

Post Number: 740
Registered: Feb-05
OH!!!!

Im sorry myself! I apologise! I read that like you were using two different gauges! Lately I have been jumpy prepping for a research project that I will turn in monday to see if it will be approved... time for me to calm down... lol

ok now I understand.

Personally, I would sell the cable, and get a killer set of single wire cable, and use a piece of it as a jumper if need be.

that is what I would do.
 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 321
Registered: Nov-05
Paul try connecting it to your speaker as it is connected to your amp so there are no bare ends hanging around to cause trouble. With bi-wiring, it is often acceptable to use a thinner wire (or less strands) for the tweeter if that is the design as they draw less power. Using some different brands/guages may possibly result in slight phasing problems I've read somewhere.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7689
Registered: May-04


Just wondering ... If it makes sense to use the thickest guage cable available, wouldn't it make sense to connect both sets of cables to your non-biwireable speakers and gain from the added amount of wire? If you do it correctly, the speaker won't know the difference between one spade lug and two being used on its binding posts. PF, I think you're expecting something is going on with this biwireable cable that just isn't going to happen.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 83
Registered: Dec-05
Jan,

I'd do just that cept that these are bananas - the speakers can only take one pair. It has to be one or the other. Probably it makes little difference which ones I use. Once again, this is for auditioning only, though I'm starting to think that for a fair audition I really need some single-wire cable.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7693
Registered: May-04


Why? If you only use one side of your cable, you have single wire cable. What does Nordost tell you about these cables that makes you think you need something other than this to connect a set of speakers?


 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 84
Registered: Dec-05
Maybe you're totally right about that. Bi-wiring isn't based on any valid science!

Buying this cable gave me great benefits when I did it but I've no way of knowing what part of that is the bi-wiring and what is the cable itself. It replaced simple, $2' Kimber cable, no bi-wire.
 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 323
Registered: Nov-05
I can't see the problem using this cable permantly or for just "auditioning" Paul. I think you misunderstand Jan, just use the wires that you used for the low frequencies (if this is the thickest or with the most strands) and be careful not to let the unused plugs short against anything. If the wires aren't long runs it probably won't make a difference which you use, but "thicker the better" is the usual rule of thumb.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 86
Registered: Dec-05
I suppose my question would have been better phrased as "would this be *less than ideal*?". I think it probably would be - some of the strands go unused. Yes, of course it's less than ideal. So, this speaker would be at some (theoretical) disadvantage over the competing, bi-wired speaker, and to make a balanced audition I should procure some single-wire cable of equal quality.

Cept this stuff ain't cheap and I'm not buying another cable just to audition.

Are there sources of free Nordost speaker cable?

There should be.

Paul
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7697
Registered: May-04


Unless the speaker is unreasonably inexpensive, it is a safe bet any current speaker not capable of biwiring was designed by someone who did not want the speaker biwired. The crossover configuration will largely determine whether a speaker might benefit from biwiring. If the designer feels the speaker is competitive with only single post wiring, it shouldn't be considered to be operating at a deficit.


Due to the complexity of the Thiel Xo's, Jim Thiel does not recommend biwiring and makes no provisions for such a connection. Due to the simplicity of a first order XO on the tweeter of a two way system, there would be no benefit that could logically be claimed for biwiring such a beast, if the speaker was connected properly internally.


You're making this much harder than it needs to be, PF.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 87
Registered: Dec-05
Well, I think you missed the point, Jan. The point's not whether a bi-wire vs single-wire speaker is a "fair" comparison (that's silly - as you note that's up to the designer), it's whether using a bi-wire cable in single-wire application (meaning not all the conductor is used) is going to let that single-wire speaker perform to its limits. Or to the same level that the bi-wire speaker, using all of the same conductor, will.

But, you're right, this is already waaay too much discussion for such a simple issue!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7699
Registered: May-04


" ... it's whether using a bi-wire cable in single-wire application (meaning not all the conductor is used) is going to let that single-wire speaker perform to its limits."


What does "all the conductors being used" have to do with anything!? You seem to think guage is the only function you should consider in a cable. The signal will get to the speaker, PF, one wire or two, 10 AWG or 22AWG. It may not work well in the circuit of this particular amplifier and speaker, but that has to do with electrical properties other than what the guage of the cable determines. Guage is basically giving you lower or higher resistance. In the length your cables run, adding more conductors is not going to even be measurable when it comes to resistance. The output impedance of your amplifier will be higher than the resistance of your speaker cables. Don't worry about whether "all the conductors" are being used.


And, for the record, there might be a cable which works better than the Nordost with your current amplifier/speaker circuit, particularly when you run a tubed power amplifier. But, it will not be a function of guage/resistance which alters the circuit.


"Or to the same level that the bi-wire speaker, using all of the same conductor, will."


Sorry, PF, but you don't seem to be "getting" it here. If it is "all the same conductor", it is not a true biwire. Get it out of your head that guage will determine anything here.




PF, one of us is not understanding the situation at hand. I suggest you call Nordost and ask them your question.



 

Gold Member
Username: Frank_abela

Berkshire UK

Post Number: 1219
Registered: Sep-04
Nordost - yeuch, not my taste. (Excellent resolution and transparency, no pace, rhtyhm and timing.)

However, Paul, there is no problem with wiring one or other set to the speaker. In fact, I'd be surprised if you couldn't connect both sets even though using bananas. Most speakers use WBT sockets or Chinese copies of WBT sockets. You should be able to unscrew the banana socket part way and expose a hole in the side. Plug one of your bananas in there (sideways on) and tighten the socket up, then plug the second banana (same colour please) into the socket in the usual place.

If you can't do this then I'd use the bass/main set of connections since I love a tight bass, but I would also try the treble wires too just in case. Make sure the free ends never meet though...

It is 'fair' to use whatever you've got since that's what you've got and Solar Wind ain't cheap! After all, if you find that you really like these speakers and buy them, you'll probably have to live with them wired up like this for a while.

Regards,
Frank.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 88
Registered: Dec-05
What speaker cables do you prefer, Frank? I bought this Nordost run as a demo special which is how I get most of my gear (demo or used).

If I swap out my speakers (Joseph Audio Rm25) for the ones I'm going to audition (used Gallo Ref 3) I may at some point sell my Solar Wind as well, though it seems there's nothing lost in using it, especially if I remove one pair of bananas and use all the wire as suggested.

I loved what this cable did for my system over the cheapy (but entirely adequate) Kimber. "Audtioning" speaker cables is something I've never really done. It's enough of a pain with interconnects. If you don't have a dealer nearby that gives loaners or allows returns and carries a lot of brands, there's no way to do it without buying.

(But since when you buy demo or used you can usually recover most or all of your money, that's not the worst method in the world.)

Anyway, FWIW, what do you prefer over Nordost?

(It's a mystery to me how a cable could affect things like "rythem" and "timing", but I'd like to hear what your opinions are.)

Paul
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dobyblue

St. Catharines, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 49
Registered: Oct-05
My speakers are bi-ampable but if I bi-amp them I lose my rear surround channels.
I went with the Excelsion 2.4 cable which allows me to bi-wire my speakers from a single post on the receiver.
Is this preferrable to using a single cable and allowing the speakers metal coupling to send the signal to the high ports on the speaker?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7703
Registered: May-04


~
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 90
Registered: Dec-05
Jan,

Would the wire still work adequately if I cut it in half and tied one end to my equipment rack?

Thx,
Paul
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7707
Registered: May-04


What were you planning to do with the cable at that point, PF?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7708
Registered: May-04


Sorry, I guess I should have asked; lengthwise or crosscut? Are you going to use the longer half or the shorter?
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paulfolbrecht

Post Number: 91
Registered: Dec-05
Pros and cons to each?

Ok, shall we end the thread now?
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7711
Registered: May-04


Good night and good luck.
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