Cerwin Vega V-12F's, EQ settings/Power
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 964 Registered: Aug-05 |     Ok, here goes, I got my V-12F's. I'm running them from a Kenwood KR-6600 at the moment, 60WPC. Sounds great. I'm upgrading to a Behringer EP-1500 Power Amp as soon as I can, however, until now, that's how I'm running them. I realize when I run the Behringer amp, my SPL's will jump dramatically as I'll be more than doubling the power they get in RMS ratings. But I'm wondering about my EQ settings. Can someone tell me if those are pretty suffice for these speakers? They are ported to 28Hz. 16 32 64 125 250 1000 2000 4000 6000 8000 16000 32000 - All in Hz, from left to right. Those are the set frequencies I can adjust. +12dB +8dB +4dB 0dB 0dB +2dB +2dB +2dB 0dB 0dB +2dB 0dB Those are my current adjustments from left to right in coordination with the frequencies listed previously, again from left to right. If someone could suggest something, it would be much appreciated. I run the CV's alone before you ask. The yellow Sony's alone, and the Pioneers with Sony sattelites on top alone, so three different setups. Obviously I'd need three separate EQ's but the CV's are what I use mainly now. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7182 Registered: May-04 | What a set up. Why all the different speakers? To begin with, doubling the RMS power will not "dramatically" jump the amount of SPL's you will hear. Though the quality of the new amp will make a substantial difference in sound quality, doubling the amount of wattage will only gain you about +3dB. So set you expectations down a bit if volume is what you are after. Why in the world do you have the 16Hz slider set to +12dB? What do you play that has information down at the very deepest frequencies? Most music is not going to have much below about 50Hz, so you are wasting amplifier power and introducing distortion and noise by asking the amplifier to boost the circuit crud that exists below 30Hz. I can only assume you are trying to get as much bass quantity as possible and there is no other reason for the way you have set the EQ. If that's the case, I don't know what you expect us to do. You are the only person who can decide what amount of bass boost is sufficient when bass boost is all you are after. If you were trying to smooth out room problems, then I could possibly have an answer for you. As is, there isn't much to tell you other than boosting frequencies with an EQ adds distortion and noise and will ultimately overdrive your amplifier. Try taking the center area down and leaving the bass flat. You have a tremendous amount of comb filtering going on with that set up and there really is no one right answer to what you want. If I have misunderstood your desires for the EQ settings, let me know and I'll try to help. But, this would appear to be nothing more than boosting the bass for the sake of boosting the bass and how the rest of the system sounds is irrelevant. How did you arrive at these settings in the first place? |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 969 Registered: Aug-05 | Well basically, I'm only listening to the CV's alone. So I have the EQ set to adhere to THEIR needs, and theirs alone. What I'm wanting to know is do I have the EQ set right in coordination to the port tuning on these speakers. I'm not sheerly after volume (I know doubling gives +3dB and that a ported system already has a +6dB gain over sealed) but the cleaner power with more headroom will still sound much better I'm hoping. I have the bass/treble knobs on my Kenwood set to +2 for bass and 0 for treble. What I need to know is basically what would be proper settings for the EQ for the CV speakers. I listen to a lot of music that drops down to 25-30Hz, but nothing any lower than that, other than some bass tests. Any help would be appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7193 Registered: May-04 | Then the first thing I'd do is get the other speakers out of the room, that will help the CV's if anything will. I have no concept of what you mean by adjusting the EQ to the needs of the speaker. The designer did that when they built the speaker. You do not adjust an EQ to the port tuning of a speaker. Once you reach the resonant frequency of the speaker system the bass rolls of at 24dB per octave in a bass reflex design. Trying to boost the bass when it is falling at this rate is simply not going to achieve anything other than distortion. While you might think the music you listen to has usable response benath 30Hz, it is really unlikely. Trying to boost what is not there is a futile endeavour. You either adjust EQ to the needs of the recording, the needs of the room or just to make things sound like you want them to sound. I would say your situation definitely falls into the last category. So there is no right or wrong in that sense. What you are doing, however, is creating the wildest ride imaginable of ups and downs in the frequency response of your system. Your speaker location is horrible. It is adding a lump in the botom end response. The bass control on your receiver is affecting everything beneath 500 Hz or so with the boost you've added there. Each of the center frequencies on your EQ is just that, a center frequency and the transition from one center to the next includes a dip in between the two centers. This creates what is called a "comb filter". In short, there is no rhyme nor reason to what you have done other than you want more bass. The only help I could provide, other than the suggestion I made in my first post here, is to remove the EQ entirely and read about speaker set up. Otherwise, you are merely pushing sliders until you get what you are happy with. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 986 Registered: Aug-05 | Ok, I'll go with the "how I want them to sound" choice. Question though. How does removing inactive speakers from the room affect the sound? I mean, if they're not playing while the CV's are, I don't see how the sound is affected, and I DEFINANTLY don't see any cancellation being caused. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7197 Registered: May-04 | Then don't do it. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 990 Registered: Aug-05 | I'm not disagreeing with you, but if you could explain how a bunch of inactive speakers near the CV's affects SQ/SPL it would be appreciated. It's mostly because I've never heard of that before, but I have no obligations to trying something new... |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 991 Registered: Aug-05 | I got rid of the Pioneers and the small Sonys on top of them. Now all that's left is a pair of MTX DJ speakers next to the CV's and the four Sony's. Bad part, running out of closet space. I think I'll be keeping the four yellow Sony's out though, I use them as a secondary system for lighter listening. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7202 Registered: May-04 | Speakers make sound by moving air. Speakers move air by being mounted on a compliant suspension.When the air surrounding the speaker's compliant suspension moves, the speaker moves. By having additional speakers in the room you are trying to drive all the speakers and they all produce some sound. It probably is not that noticeable, but having just the driven speakers in the room is best. |
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Silver Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 992 Registered: Aug-05 | Well that's done. Maybe it's me, or I tricked myself, but I think the SQ and SPL has increased. Although it's probably just my mind. Is there anything else I can do? My entire house is almost 200 years old and made of solid plaster walls, so basically not many rooms are "acoustically" endowed. They don't necessarily SOUND bad, but are VERY hard to fill with lots of sound. Oh, and about my "setting the EQ to the speaker" thing. What I mean is what would be some EQ setting so that I will see optimal performance from the speakers in both SQ/SPL? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7211 Registered: May-04 | If you have a house that old, your walls are plaster over lathing. This is similar to using a double layer of drywall. You should have fairly good potential for sound in such a solid room. Having a solid room is just the beginning of getting good sound in that room. Since I don't know what you consider good sound, and can only assume given your choice of equipment and how you use the EQ settings that you and I are not even close to agreement in that regard, there's not much else I can say. Adjust the controls to your liking and realize that you are not making the sound accurate. Far from it. To gain optimal SPl from the speakers, remove the EQ entirely. Boosting the bass frequencies in the manner you have done will eat up tremendous amounts of power to produce nothing but noise and distortion. Playing the system flat should allow all the power your amplifier can muster to be directed to the speaker as the recording requires. If you think sound quality suffers when the EQ is not in the system, then I don't have an answer for you. |
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Gold Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 1021 Registered: Aug-05 | Hold on. You're saying to gain SPL, remove the EQ. So to maintain SQ, use the EQ? An EQ is just meant for correcting acoustical problems in a given environment, correct? "Since I don't know what you consider good sound, and can only assume given your choice of equipment and how you use the EQ settings that you and I are not even close to agreement in that regard, there's not much else I can say. Adjust the controls to your liking and realize that you are not making the sound accurate. Far from it. " My choice of equipment? Just what is wrong with my "choice of equipment"? I don't happen to be insanely wealthy and can spend thousands of dollars on a sing pair of speakers just so they can be extremely accurate and loud at the same time. I happen to be 18 years old, still in high school, and going to college in the coming fall semester. You may have excessive money to spend in such ways, I don't. All I wanted was a LITTLE bit of advice on some EQ settings that would create some extra fullness in the sound. I don't think though, sitting here and criticizing my choice of equipment is what I asked for OR helping for that matter. I reduced the lowest of bass frequencies down to +6dB and the others to around +4dB. All the other settings now are either 0 or +2dB. If you would like to quit being a smart (you know what) and give me what YOU think is a good idea of sound, I'd be more than willing to hear it. Also, it's not just inactive speakers that absorb sound. It's anything in the room, my CAT absorbs sound! Do you suggest (now it's my turn to be sarcastic) I remove everything from my room (including all furniture), as well as myself when I decide to listen to my sound system? Seriously...So if you're done being excessively picky, could you give me your idea of good sound (which in reality is probably not far from mine), but rather I just don't know how to achieve it, and by posing these questions I was hoping you could tell me, without being, sarcastic and going to extremes such as completely removing the EQ for strictly SPL. |
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Anonymous | I'll see if I can help this conversation out a bit... "Hold on. You're saying to gain SPL, remove the EQ. " To some degree yes. You will lose some SPL in the bass region (which soaks a lot up more amplifier power than say, treble), but gain improved dynamics (punch, ability to change volume quickly) and a little extra headroom on your amplifier from not having to reproduce excessive amounts of bass. "My choice of equipment? Just what is wrong with my "choice of equipment"? I don't happen to be insanely wealthy and can spend thousands of dollars on a sing pair of speakers just so they can be extremely accurate and loud at the same time." I'm not insanely wealthy either, but in hifi circles pioneer and cv are not considered very good except for party speakers (not to be mean or anything). If you want to see a speaker that does high SPL and high quality at the same time, check out Klipsch products, as an example. "All I wanted was a LITTLE bit of advice on some EQ settings that would create some extra fullness in the sound... If you would like to quit being a smart (you know what) and give me what YOU think is a good idea of sound, I'd be more than willing to hear it. " The only suggestion we can give is go with what sounds good to you, which we can't really tell. If you really want a suggestion based on what we can tell from your tastes, turn 16 and 32 Hz to 0 and bump up 64, 125, and 250 a bit. This *should* add a bit more fullness to the sound. "Also, it's not just inactive speakers that absorb sound. It's anything in the room, my CAT absorbs sound! Do you suggest (now it's my turn to be sarcastic) I remove everything from my room (including all furniture), as well as myself when I decide to listen to my sound system?" Its not that they absorb sound, its that the inactive speaker cones resonate and make their own sound, which deteriorates the overall sound quality slightly. |
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Gold Member Username: TdbdadrummerPost Number: 1023 Registered: Aug-05 | I'm plenty aware of brands such as Klipsch and their amazing abilities, but I just don't have the $$$ to afford such amazing pieces of audio equipment. I really don't know how Pioneer and CV are classified in a similar category considering the many build quality errors Pioneers and Sonys alike, have. But regardless I'll try out those settings suggestions. The only reason I have the 32Hz up as high as it is, was to promote the port's tuning frequency of 28Hz (I like the sound and feel of the very low and less audible frequencies). |
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Anonymous | "I'm plenty aware of brands such as Klipsch and their amazing abilities, but I just don't have the $$$ to afford such amazing pieces of audio equipment. " Well it depends on your budget but even as low as 400 bucks you can find quality floorstanders from companies like Athena. There is always the used route as well. Ebay is a magical place! In any event, good luck with the settings and have a good night. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7213 Registered: May-04 | Hold on; why don't you calm yourself down and stop being insulted by a simple statement of fact. What you own is not what I would own. There are a lot of people who own things I wouldn't care to own. So what's your problem with that? If you want to be touchy and insecure about your system, that's your business. Just don't blame it on me. I never indicated I thought your equipment was anything other than different from what I happen to own. Our tastes are obviously not the same. OK? Now, get over yourself. "You're saying to gain SPL, remove the EQ." Yes, that's what I said. You are wasting wattage by boosting the lowest frequencies to an excessive amount. With few exceptions an amplifier is clipped by the amount of power it is asked to produce in the bass region not in the mids or highs. If a 100 watt amplifier is clipped, there is every chance the tweeter in the speakers will be seeing no more than about 10 watts even though it gets most of the distortion. Ditch the EQ and you will have more power available to the frequencies that matter. And, no comb filtering. "So to maintain SQ, use the EQ?" That's hardly what I said. You seem to be asking the same question over and over even though I've given the same answer over and over. You want to use the EQ because you think it makes the speakers sound better. I would ditch the EQ totally. If we are this far apart and you are not going to do what I suggest, what is the purpose of continuing? "An EQ is just meant for correcting acoustical problems in a given environment, correct?" No, an EQ is meant to do the various functions I mentioned above. Furthermore, what you own is a graphic EQ with set frequency centers and bells. If you are trying to correct a room problem, you first need to know where the problem exists. It is in the room not in the porting of the speaker. You need to know at what frequencies the room has peaks and dips. Then, if the room has a +12db peak at 70Hz, you have to take the 70hz center down by 12dB. If the peak has a high Q, you need to make a very shallow bell. If the peak has a low Q, you need to create a very wide bell. You cannot do this with a graphic EQ with set frequency centers and bells. So, with what you have to work with, not even counting the bass boost to everything below 500 hz that you've added at the receiver, you cannot make room corrections that mean anything even if you knew where the room problems exist. Now, after all this, you want to give me instructions on how to get good sound? No, your cat does not absord sound. Your cat selectively absorbs sound. There's a difference. Far more bounces off your cat than is absorbed. I've told you repeatedly how to get what I consider good sound. Take out the EQ, turn off the bass control and set the speakers up to get the most evenly balanced sound the designer has put into the speakers. That apparently isn't what you want to hear. You would prefer I tell you to jack up the EQ and turn up the bass in some manner you consider helping the porting of the speaker. I can't do that because there is no such effect and that's not what I consider good sound. Now, what's the point of going through this again? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 7216 Registered: May-04 | For the record; how big is your cat? Any frequency with a wavelength larger than your cat acts as if your cat does not exist. http://www.maximacar.com/system_design2.htm |
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Gold Member Username: TdbdadrummerWellsburg, WV USA Post Number: 1037 Registered: Aug-05 | My cat weighs about 16 lbs. lol. Kinda chubby, but not that chubby. I was just being sarcastic. |
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