Question for Jan Vigne

 

Bostdorf
Unregistered guest
I like your comparison of home audio to what live music actually sounds like but, without me reading through all of the posts on the board, what actually sounds good to YOUR ears?

What kind of speakers do you own? Currently and in the past?
Other equipment?
Would you recommend the new Emmas?

What other speakers/setups sound close to live music to your ears?

Just curious-your posts are always enlightening.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7134
Registered: May-04


What actually sounds good to my ears is live music. It's hard to top. It's getting damned expensive however. I have to wonder what's going on when various performers playing in Dallas get $60 for back of the auditorium seating while the acts that come into Billy Bob's over in Fort Worth (Willie Nelson, Merle Haggert, Buddy Guy, etc.) play for $10-20.


That's twenty bucks TOPS!!!!




My current "main" speakers are a pair of Rogers LS3/5a's that were manufactured sometime in 1976 according to the serial number sequence. If you are unfamiliar with the BBC monitor, here's a bit more information; http://www.ls35a.com/ I've used these speakers since I bought them second hand in the late 1980's. They were in a bedroom system for most of that time and recently became the main speakers when my systems got shifted around in rooms. Previously I had listened to a pair of Spica Angelus. The Spicas do not work as well in the new main listening room as the Rogers do. The Rogers are meant for near field listening (about 7-8 feet) which is better suited to my current set up while the Spicas prefer about 11-12 feet to the listening position for the drivers to meld.



I tend to hold on to what I own for long periods of time. My main amplifiers are two McIntosh MC240 tube amplifiers built in the early 1960's, updated in the early 1990's and working in a mono configuration to produce about 100 watts per side. I've owned these amps for about twenty five years. In my mind, I have sought out components which are basically musical and of better than average build quality which are difficult to out-do in sound quality in most (musically important) ways. The essential sound of music has not changed in the last fifty years so why should my equipment be out of date? There are some terrific bargains in audio today and there is a lot of crap. Crap will always be crap and bargains too often fade away. Anyone remember Superphon? To my ears and way of thinking, what was very good musically in the past should still be able to hold its own with the best there is today. I do not believe the magazines when they tell me yet another hallmark in music reproduction has been found this month. I've had the opportunity to compare what I own to what is considered to be very good today and I think I have an idea where my equipment shows its age and relative price.


A fifteen year old Audible Illusions tube pre amp, a twenty year old VPI/Rega/Grado turntable, a forty year old McIntosh tube tuner and a relatively new Denon 2900 universal DVD player get the signals to the Macs. I don't use tape any longer but there are some Revox and Nakamichi decks in the closets somewhere. Most of my gear has been mildy modified. I've spent a great deal of attention on the room, proper system support and set up and speaker placement. I live in one of the many "tornado alleys" so I've invested in AC conditioners/filters.


I've got receivers, integrated amps and pre and power amplifiers that I purchased over the years in various rooms. Some I give away to friends and some goes on into yet another system in yet another room. (I go into people's houses in my work and I am amazed at the number of homes where there is not even a table radio let alone anything that could be considered a high fidelity music system.) Some of my original gear that I still own goes back to 1975 when I first began selling audio (a Harman Kardon receiver and a Citation 12 Deluxe [ the one with the walnut case]). Speakers that I don't care to part with are stored in closets with the oldest pair being some original Large Advents from the mid 1970's (the woofer surrounds are shot).


Yes, I would obviously recommend Emma. You should make certain you've read what I've said about my time with the speaker and feel confident Emma does what you are trying to find in a speaker. While I was selling audio one of the most common remarks clients made when asked to explain why they preferred a particular product was they thought the sound was "clear". I sometimes agreed and most often felt they had only heard the over the top brightness of some speakers and amplifiers. I feel confident I can tell you I have not heard a speaker anywhere near Emma's price that tops her in clarity. At the same time, Emma is not the least bit fatiguing as are most other speakers which hype the "clarity" of their sound. Listening through Emma you will hear and understand words and musical phrases that have long been obscured by lesser designs. Emma is not perfect. If what she does is what you are after, you cannot find better for the same amount of money.



Another person asked me what speakers I preferred and I never got around to an answer over the holidays. My apologies to that person. I have not heard many of the current crop of high end speakers so it is difficult for me to give an answer that means much to most readers. Dallas, despite its size, is not a great hifi city and what shops there are in Dallas/Ft. Worth have been forced to deal with home theater which then eats into their floor space for two channel products. So my answer will be very incomplete for what you wish me to say.


I have never heard a McIntosh product displayed that didn't catch my ear for just being musical. The only other current line of electronics I would recommend would be Rowland Research. I think Bryston, Berning and VTL are probably still excellent lines but I haven't seen or heard them in years. Though I was never a fan of Threshold when Nelson Pass owned it (class A amps shouldn't be that bright), I would love to hear his First Watt products. No one in this area currently has a S.E.T. and full range driver set up to audition. Other than that, I can live without hearing most of what's out there. That does however leave out far too many products that should be given some consideration; but they just do no exist in Dallas/Ft. Worth for me to audition.


I think everyone interested in audio should own, before they die, a Dynaco Stereo 70, a Marantz 7C and a Conrad Johnson PV-5. If these three classic components do not convince you, despite their many faults, there is something absolutely magical in the way they reproduce music, then you should go ahead and die or, at the very least, get a new hobby. If you are really interested in audio as a hobby, I think you should get back to the roots of the Golden Age of audio and put together a pre amp and power amp kit on your kitchen table. Everyone should know how to solder properly. You will learn more about audio by doing that than by reading twenty years worth of audio magazines or buying a dozen receivers.


I really have to say the only other speakers I have always wanted to own for their fidelity to live music are Quad electrostatics. I have never had a room I thought could do them justice in the set up I prefer. Once again, despite their flaws, there is no other speaker I have ever heard that reproduces what is on the source as convincingly and in as compelling a fashion as any generation of the Quad electrostatics. The first time I heard the original Quad 57's is my most memorable moment in audio. At that point, everything I had thought about music in my home changed completely.


The Rogers and the Spicas both were compared to the Quads for what they all did well. Since I don't change out my equipment on a regular basis, I have decided that unless I can get the Quads, which I still can't due to space limitations, then I'll just stick with what I presently own. This isn't to say there aren't other good speakers out there; I just haven't heard anything that gives me goosebumps and sticks in my memory like the Quads.


Against what I remember the sound of McIntosh tubes and perfectly set up Quad panels to be, everything else is a distant second.


Finally, I think everyone should hear live music every chance they get. Go to free concerts, buy cheap seats or listen from the lawn. But you really have to know what live music sounds like before you can put its reproduction in your home.




 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7135
Registered: May-04


One more thing, constantly ask yourself questions about what you are hearing. Figure out what is important to you and what you can live without. As I have indicated elsewhere, you are after whatever represents to you the essence of live music.


 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 778
Registered: May-05
Another Couple of Questions For Jan, eventually anyway:

Jan, one of your better, more thoughtful responses to this question, I think.

But now that you've raised the Quads, what do you think about the Dahlquist DQ-10s (the originals not the repros), I've got a chance to preview a pair, which I may take, even though they're fairly substantial on their stands, I think I can find space to set them up. Have you heard these before and, if so, what is your opinion of how they would stack up to the Emmas? I may get a chance to A/B them but it will depend when I get the Emmas from Tim.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7145
Registered: May-04


Dak - The DQ10's have become a cult speaker at best. I've not heard a pair since they were current production back in the late 1970's. I don't know how to compare them to Emma since the Dalhquist cannot reproduce any bass beneath about 70-80Hz in most rooms. What the DQ10 did was unique for its time and spawned a new way of thinking about speakers. That they were bettered in transparency by almost any electrostatic of the day and most of today's current crop is not an accident. There are dozens of vintage speakers I can think of owning before I'd get around to the Dahlquist. I'm sure that will offend anyone who really likes what the DQ10's manage to do, but I just never found them that interesting against the other dipole designs of the day and certainly not against what's available today.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7149
Registered: May-04


I would also add the DQ10's are spectacularly inefficient (this from someone using 15 Ohm, 84dB speakers) and love/absolutely require high power, high current dumping amplifiers. The amp of choice when the DQ10 was current would have typically been the Ampzilla. The DQ10's also break easily when used with high power, high current amplifiers. In a peculiar twist of fate, the Ampzilla also broke down on a regular basis when presented with the load the Dahlquist showed to its outputs. Unless you've snuck something into your system without telling us, I don't think any amplifier you own would do particularly well on the DQ10's.


While the comment about insufficient extension in the bass region might again seem unusual from anyone using a speaker the size of a shoe box, the issue of mating a subwoofer to the DQ10 is even more problematic than trying the same with the Quads or the 3/5a's, two other speakers with limited bass extension and power and not too usual sound quality in the lower octaves.


And, I assume you understand the positioning problems associated with the Dahlquist design. Where were you considering placing the Dahlquist?


 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 779
Registered: May-05
Jan,

No, I hadn't considered any positioning problem other than their size. Fortunately, in the room where I've placed the 2 channel system I have several options BUT it's a very live room, little carpeting, hard wood floors and windows on two sides. That aside, I can move them any distance from the wall and place them on the floor or stands up to 2 feet in height.

However, two things you've said make me a little less enthusiastic with trying these speakers. One, most of my speakers are fairly efficient and I don't drive them to frightening levels although I do like music somewhat loud (remember my fun, high level hearing loss) and I'm not certain the 25 wpc Fisher has enough oomph to drive them from what you're saying.

Secondly, I cannot imagine liking any speaker that's half the side of a refrigerator that can't manage decent bass. Yes, I love my Ascends as HT speakers because of their crystal clear, neutral highs and well-defined, smooth midrange BUT I knew I would need a sub with them. Generally, I prefer no subs in my 2 channel sound and speakers that are closer to full range. So, I may give them a listen but I suspect that I won't like what I hear.

Heck, the Klipsch Heredias, or whatever they are, lack some bass compared to the ALs and that was immediately an issue for me although I've come to enjoy the many things that they do well. When and if I get around to listening to these, I may contact you further to discuss set-up thoughts. The same on the Emmas when I get those from Tim.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7154
Registered: May-04


Do listen to them. It's always a good idea to know where the audio industry has been and have an idea about what products changed the direction the industry took. The DQ10's did change many things in high end audio as they were the first multiple driver speaker I was aware of that went for time alignment of the drivers. This was at a time when most engineers still used slide rules and computers were a few years away from playing Pong; so the resulting design is impressive if just for that peculiarity. I wouldn't prejudge the Dahlquist though. There are things to like about them, I just could not make them a speaker I was willing to put up with. That and I thought the original Quads and most of the electrostats from that time period were much better at what the Dahlquist tried to achieve. This was also the beginning of Magnepan which made a dent in Dahlquist's sales.


Most certainly twenty five watts of anything, tubes, solid state or dynamite would not be enough for the DQ10's.

If you ever get a chance to hear any of the GAS products (Ampzilla, Son of Ampzilla, Grandson, etc.) do make sure you take advantage of the opportunity. They, like the Dahlquist and the Magnepans set the stage for many products to follow over the next thirty years. They are also similar to the DQ10's in that they are being revived by another company to make money on the name and the success of the original designer.

http://www.davidsaudio.com/html/gas_sumo.html

http://www.ampzilla2000.com/Amp_History.html


No doubt about it, Bongiorno was (is) a very talented designer.



You'll have to tell me what you hear that the Heresy's do well. I sold that speaker for many years and never could figure it out.


 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7155
Registered: May-04


I happen to have the original white paper Paul Klipsch wrote on the introduction of the Heresy included in my collection of "Dope From Hope". It makes a very interesting read.

 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 781
Registered: May-05
Jan,

At first, the Heresys did not sound very good to my ears. Place them on or near the floor and the bass booms badly. Place them above the floor - 18" to 24" and you got rid of the boomy bass and replace it with a lack of bass, not completely gone but certainly pretty dang close to gone. (Given the size of the speakers and the 12" woofer, which is the same as the ALs, I couldn't figure out how these speakers could provide so little low end.)

Then, I listened to several CDs that I know well, Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Eagles, an old Harry Chapin live concert and I still had real problems with liking the Heresys. My friend recommended against busier classical pieces but I thought I'd try "The Planets."

Most of what I heard from the Heresys during this CD was average or only a little better than average. The Ascends are clearer, more distinct and more neutral in the highs and mids, although someone might call them "bright" with my Denon upstairs, I liked what they did musically better than the Heresys.

But, I believe it is during Mars and Saturn, there are a couple of passages of horns and winds and the Heresys voiced these parts of passages incredibly well. Granted that during the same passages, the strings were indistinct, not very real and almost impossible to separate but the horn drivers did a wonderful job on the horns and winds during these passages.

So, that brings me to the bottome line. I guess the question you asked with the Emmas is could you live with the shortcomings in exchange for the things that she did well. The answer for me with the Heresys is a resounding "no" but, at least, I figured out what my friend seems to like about the Heresys.

As for me, I like my speakers to be a little bit more of an all around athelete and not so much a specialist. I would be willing to give up some bass response for crystal clear highs and creamy, smooth mids, which is what I believe that the Ascends give me.

Unfortunately, the Heresys are limited in this regard and they do not make up for their bass problems with incredibly clear, distinct and smooth highs and mids. Generally, I do not listen to individual instruments in order to determine realism in my music while ignoring the parts that do not come across as "live" but I did that here in order to find what my friend "liked" about the Heresys. So, that's the long story to your short question.

However, I'm sure my friend (and me, too for that matter) would enjoy reading Paul Klipsch's comments on this speaker, if you're willing to share a copy.

Thanks, Dave
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 782
Registered: May-05
Jan,

At first, the Heresys did not sound very good to my ears. Place them on or near the floor and the bass booms badly. Place them above the floor - 18" to 24" and you got rid of the boomy bass and replace it with a lack of bass, not completely gone but certainly pretty dang close to gone. (Given the size of the speakers and the 12" woofer, which is the same as the ALs, I couldn't figure out how these speakers could provide so little low end.)

Then, I listened to several CDs that I know well, Diana Krall, Norah Jones, Eagles, an old Harry Chapin live concert and I still had real problems with liking the Heresys. My friend recommended against busier classical pieces but I thought I'd try "The Planets."

Most of what I heard from the Heresys during this CD was average or only a little better than average. The Ascends are clearer, more distinct and more neutral in the highs and mids, although someone might call them "bright" with my Denon upstairs, I liked what they did musically better than the Heresys.

But, I believe it is during Mars and Saturn, there are a couple of passages of horns and winds and the Heresys voiced these parts of passages incredibly well. Granted that during the same passages, the strings were indistinct, not very real and almost impossible to separate but the horn drivers did a wonderful job on the horns and winds during these passages.

So, that brings me to the bottome line. I guess the question you asked with the Emmas is could you live with the shortcomings in exchange for the things that she did well. The answer for me with the Heresys is a resounding "no" but, at least, I figured out what my friend seems to like about the Heresys.

As for me, I like my speakers to be a little bit more of an all around athelete and not so much a specialist. I would be willing to give up some bass response for crystal clear highs and creamy, smooth mids, which is what I believe that the Ascends give me.

Unfortunately, the Heresys are limited in this regard and they do not make up for their bass problems with incredibly clear, distinct and smooth highs and mids. Generally, I do not listen to individual instruments in order to determine realism in my music while ignoring the parts that do not come across as "live" but I did that here in order to find what my friend "liked" about the Heresys. So, that's the long story to your short question.

However, I'm sure my friend (and me, too for that matter) would enjoy reading Paul Klipsch's comments on this speaker, if you're willing to share a copy.

Thanks, Dave
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 783
Registered: May-05
Sorry about the double post, oops.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7157
Registered: May-04


Yeah, horn loaded drivers make sounds very much like horns. Too bad when the rest of the sound is not very interesting.
 

Silver Member
Username: My_rantz

Australia

Post Number: 145
Registered: Nov-05
Jan, I have another question for you - actually a favour.

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/189097.html

M.R.
 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 784
Registered: May-05
Jan,

Well, I really wanted to like these little puppies. My friend was basically keeping me in music while he tried to repair the one AL speaker for nothing. Anyway, it beats listening to nothing, that's for sure.

But, it just didn't work for me. Anyway, I'm waiting for my ALs to return in full function. More to come whe, and if, they do.
 

Gold Member
Username: Nuck

Parkhill, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1028
Registered: Dec-04
Dave, you are on the loong thread for AL repairs.
Well I guess these units aren't make like CHevy's.
The Hereseys sound like you describe them from here. Good description, thanks.

Sometimes, it's NOT the good ol' days!

Good luck and let us know!
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7164
Registered: May-04


One thing to say about the Heresy, which my clients never quite understood when I made the comment; the Heresy's "bass" is one of the most unique in the entire audio world.


 

Silver Member
Username: Dakulis

Spokane, Washington United States

Post Number: 785
Registered: May-05
Jan,

That's an understatement. It ranges from booming to almost not there. It's almost like the bass from a decent small monitor, it's there but it's not very convincing unless you really work on placement. (This is not what I'm used to with the ALs, just plop them down anywhere and you get bass.) Now, the imaging and soundstage take a little more set-up work on the ALs but how would I know, they're gone again.

With the Heresys, lower the speaker a few inches and the bass changes, lower it a foot and it changes dramatically. I've been playing with the set-up height on them and you can really impact the bass on these speakers more than just about anything I've heard before. VERY INTERESTING!!!

Nuck, LOL. Yeah, I'm hoping they get repaired before we move onto another music format and i have to buy a different player to hear them.
 

Gold Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 7170
Registered: May-04


A little something on McIntosh, VTL, Marantz, Pass and Conrad Johnson: http://www.1388.com/articles/ampdesign-english/index.html

This page wanders around a bit. I'm sure you'll find something to catch your attention.


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