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Plunging into Multi-channel

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Archive through May 04, 2004Gregory Stern100
Archive through May 25, 2004John A.100
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Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 317
Registered: Dec-03
john let me get this straight are you saying that
the reason why some people dismiss surround music
is because of promises of recreating a concert or
original setting and not living up to it?

because if so they are missing the point of the
surround music format.imho

unless the original performance had a unique setup.
that would require surround speakers to recreate
it.

otherwise to me its just another dimension to the
recorded music we allready have.mono,stero and now surrround.

with surround not particularly promissing anything
as far as a rule goes.

and like i said earlier i am done with this!
either you like it or you don't.
to me that's pretty much all their is to it.

and i get a sense you like it as long as it's not
to crazaly recorded.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 539
Registered: Dec-03
John A--

I guess the candy and flowery prose you sent really masked your true feelings.

Signed your former lover--DVD-A:-)

Unless you are at a concert, the medium carries the message.


You had said earlier that listening in an anechoic chamber would be ideal. Having had the experience, let me tell you--it is as far from ideal as listening inside a tin can (except that's the opposite). Anechoic chambers are great for initial speaker measurements, but they suck big time for music--heck, they suck for even having a conversation. They are acoustically dead. A concert hall would immediately be torn down if it was like an anechoic chamber. People would run from the room in your house, even if just for conversation, in an anechoic chamber. No tone sounds dulcet inside them. They are just tools for getting speaker readings without reflective sounds. They are nothing you would like to have as a media room.

I'm not sure what you are trying to say. Do you think a classical recording that isn't live is trying to recreate the sound of a studio as its goal? I think most engineers of classical music aspire to have you feel as if you are listening in Carnegie Hall--or anywhere that is acoustically excellent in the "real" world.

If you read about the birth of stereo as a medium at Bell Labs, they regarded it as a compromise from the beginning. A compromise due to the limitations of LP's having limited bandwidth and only two walls on the LP for extracting information. They even did tests with 3 speakers--a discrete center channel--and thought it far superior to stereo, nevermind the fact that they knew more speakers sounded even more realistic and better.

I don't generally subscribe to conspiracy theories. I no more think stereo was a ruse to make people jettison monaural than I think that THX rules for attempting to get good surround movie performance was a ruse to extract consumer money with little, to no, sonic improvement.

Sure, there are ruses (or just plain bad ideas) that do little or nothing to advance mankind. But I don't think good surround is any more a ruse than the automobile was a ruse to displace the horse., or the telephone a ruse to displace the telegraph.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 301
Registered: Feb-04
John A

It's too late - Orwell warned us! Let's chuck it all out! That'll teach them if they can't take a joke!

John, okay it's the music, I agree, but how long have you been buying crap and giving your money to the recording conglomerates? Maybe I'm not too bright and I may well be a mug, but I'm getting a little lost here so maybe I don't follow the deep (censored) so well. So, please, if you can, explain the message in simple terms and tell me what you would have me believe and what, if anything I should do about the conspiracy.

Because, really, all I want is to enjoy the music and the movies in the formats available without having to remortage the house and staying up all night thinking the bas---ds should have done better.

Whether it's LP's, CD's, DVD's, DVD-A's, SACD's, through one speaker or a hundred, there was and always will be that to be enjoyed and that to give the mother-in-law. And I think we're way past worrying about giving our money to the Evil Empire!

Okay, both barrels, but be nice!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1226
Registered: Dec-03
Thanks, guys. I have load of work on today. Will reply; will be back. We are all on the wrong thread. See Teaching an old dog new tricks...". that is not flowery, it is terse. Can rite how u like, Greg.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 303
Registered: Feb-04
John A

"We are all on the wrong thread." Or is what you're really saying: we are being led up the garden path? (grin)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 111
Registered: Apr-04
Gregory,

Did you know Joe Henry's "Scar" album is on DVD-A?
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 540
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia--

I only have the "Scar" cd. Thanks for the info on the DVD-A.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1234
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

Great. No, I think "up ____ creek without a paddle".

Much as I value these threads, and all the input from you on-line friends, I've just got to concentrate on some other things in the next few weeks. Maybe months, depending. In the larger scheme of things, they tip the scales. I will pop back from time to time, but no more essays. And no more attempts to sheep-dog people back onto the issue, even if we are poised to find an answer. It can seem boring. On another thread a guy wants a straight answer to something like "will the NAD T733 I've ordered hum like the rest of them?"; "Don't know" isn't good enough, and attempts to explain why that is all anyone can say produce an angry "I want an answer, not philosophy". What the guy wants is certainty, and for someone else to take responsibilty for his own decision. There are plenty of folk lining up to deliver exactly that, as I've pointed out many times. I was tempted with the obvious line "You can be absolutely sure it will be perfect, be everything you ever wanted in a receiver, and never, ever let you down", just waiting for "how can you say that?". But really, I've got my own kids to teach.

Re hi-res, multi-channnel, and music, I cannot possibly say it more clearly than I already have. Especially the point about phase and number of channels. If my style is really the issue, fine, apologies, I can do lots of others. If there is really some specific point where I seem willfully obscure, I'll have another go, if I can: clarity was my intention. However, just when we are getting to the whole darned point of these discussions, commenting on whether you like someone's style of presentation, and then changing the subject, is an old and recognisable manoevre of someone losing an argument, who wants to win more than to understand. That's you Gregory. I'd be delighted to be proved wrong; really I would.

"the medium carries the message" . Yes, but confusing it WITH the message is the whole issue, here, I think.

The message is the music. Let's make make the medium itself invisible. Let's listen to the music.

Probably Jan's given up, too. I hope not.

BTW there's another take on the power of music, currently on "Teaching and old dog..."

Must go.

Best to all.

Really.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 318
Registered: Dec-03
take care john get the important things done!

lately i think the discussions have turned towards
more of arguing than resolvement anyway!

but if you look at the overall picture you can
gather that most of us do enjoy listening to multi
channel music "maybe some listen differntly"
and i think that was the point to start with.

we all agree it has better resolution/clarity.

and some enjoy the extra channels more than others.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 305
Registered: Feb-04
John A

Well, you'll be missed. If you have taken offence to any of my comments all I can do is apologise as that certainly was not my intention.

Some of the discussions were getting into the deep --- for someone like me without a broader knowledge expressed by you, Jan and others, but I found they were interesting and there was much to be taken from them.

But, there should be no argument - only an exchange of opinions. And I think we all need to remember that written words do not always accurately convey the intent.

And as far as I'm concerned, listening to music was what we were all about. If there is any message at all John, I think it is this: We should absolutely believe in our own ears.

I hope the scales tip your way

Good Luck!
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 103
Registered: Mar-04
John A.
Take care of things and hurry back. I, for one, really enjoy reading your posts. Never forget the common bond that brought us all together here in the first place. Be well....

Peace,
Sem
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 229
Registered: Dec-03
Please don't be long, John. I'll miss the exchanges. Stay well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 541
Registered: Dec-03
John A and other parties--

I am sorry for anything I wrote that seemed offensive. I wrote the May 25th message after waking early in the morning from a restless night-3:25am. If it seemed strident--I apologize.

Not that I aim to retract my viewpoint--just wanted to set the record straight that I had no intention of doing anything other than put forth my opinion.

We have been posting a long time and it saddens me that opinions of format preference and opinions of what are the most important aspects of speakers (or is it my writing style?)seems to have created personal offense.

As many have experienced before (particularly in the e-mail format), what is jocular to one can often be offensive to others.

Sure, most people like to be right, but we learn most when we aren't. I own a chemical company and have made numerous mistakes--some of which I have literally paid for dearly.

I also post this to remind myself and others that it is alright to disagree without being disagreeable--and I certainly had no intention or desire to be disagreeable or to take an opposite opinion just for arguments sake--and certainly didn't intend to make you or anyone else feel badly.

But I have probably spent far too much time here myself.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 319
Registered: Dec-03
yes gregory we have probably spent to much time
hear lately but i think a lot of us have become
online friends and it's hard to just walk away.

and as i have stated many a time it can be fairly
easy to get rattled and rattle someone else too
on these message boards from time to time.

i think the trick is to try to not take things to
serious."that can be hard though"

i usually have my system on next to me while i am
working on things and the little email guy tells
me i have messages and i just can't ignore it.
i'm hooked and won't be going anywhere just that
i might concentrate on other things from time to
time and post less.

i think we have all learned a litte something at
times from each other and i for one look forward
to more.

so keep it comin guys we got more to learn baby!
and gals "ghia your one of us also"
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 230
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you Kegger. Yes we all have a lot more to learn, hopefully every day. We can all say we are guilty of spending too much time on this forum. But I think we do it for 2 reasons:

(1) the love of the music/hobby
(2) the personal bonds made and shared

I chose to join this forum because I saw a very diverse and knowledgeable bunch of contributors. I have always seen/read an atmosphere of comraderie and respect. From time to time, we all disagree with an opinion, but have never seen a personal attack on someone from the regulars. Gregory, I followed you post, and saw no mal-intend in it. As I recall you and I butted heads in our first exchange. By the way, did you ever try the brass iso-cones under your components? LOL!! Please keep posting, I have always counted on you for the "technical" answer and expertise.

I have watched this forum expand from the usual - what is better, Denon or Marantz, to new issues of format, music, lyrics, etc. As issues widen, so do personal emotions on the subjects. Maybe we are just experiencing growing pains. So lets just step back for a few minutes, appreciate what we have in this forum, and more forward with renewed vigor and respect for all. I for one, truly appreciate the company. Cheers to all!
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 112
Registered: Apr-04
I think some pretty eloquent points have been made in regards to John A's stepping back from the forum. The only thing I would add is this is the first time I've ever really participated in a forum to the degree that I have here. In those rare instances when I seek out a forum, I generally lurk - and usually the lurking ends once the initial fascination is over - and don't feel a need to participate because...well, frankly, there are a lot of idiots and morons out there and I just don't have the time, patience or inclination to deal with them. This forum is different. I was impressed with the level of knowledge imparted and the graciousness of that knowledge sharing. In fact, if you go the the very first post of this thread (now archived) you'll see that was the first point I made. Since then, it is clear to me that there is a group of quality individuals participating in this forum.

I enjoy the camaraderie and appreciate the feedback and value the welcome extended to me. All of you have helped me get a better understanding of the equipment (even if the physics sometimes gets a little too deep for me) and I've been introduced to some music that I otherwise might not have tried (i.e. Loretta Lynn, Samuel Barber, etc).

JohnA, I wish you well and also hope that you will continue to grace the forum with your presence.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 310
Registered: Feb-04
Guys and Gals

It's not often, (well, in my case) when one gets the opportunity to share this passion for quality sound sources and music when one has few friends or family members who have a similar bent.

To have people like yourselves, John A and a few noteable others on hand in our computer room for advice, opinions, knowledge, or just sharing thoughts is a real blessing.

And I'm sure that if John A takes a peek here and notes the sincerity expressed by all of you good folk, he'll be back as soon as his workload permits. Let's hope so.

Oh, and it's National Thanks Giving Week here in Aus - (didn't know we ever had one - another US rip off perhaps?) - so I thank you all for what I stated above and allowing me 'My Rantz' also.

 

New member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 6
Registered: Apr-04
Hi to all
I am watching this forum for some months now and I am quite impressed from the high level of knowledge and discussion culture of the various participants.
I myself belong to the old fashioned stereo believers for the classical music listener. I would not go again on the reasons because they were all discussed in details at this forum.
On the other hand we all like innovation and development and I follow the audio frontier to discover new and improved listening facilities and media.
I am also a member of opera listening club where we hold a biweekly group meeting to listen and explain famous and infamous operas recorded on DVD's.
In this club we try to arrange the best up to date audio video equipment to get the full sound and vision of a grand operas on DVD's. This is very similar to the "Home Theatre" but up to now we did not use surround or multi channels format first, because there are very few operas recorded in Dolby Digital or DTS formats and second, few members of the club have the proper audio video surround arrangements at there home.
Anyhow we get very good results from the stereo -- video set. We use a front projector on a screen and when all this is correctly arraigned I feel that may be we do not need any surround affects.
It is important for me to have the various views and impression of this forum members about DVD A and SACD and how it is connected to the classical music listener.

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
John A. - The time has gone, the song is over, thought I'd something more to say. (DSOTM) Sorry I was unavailable recently, life's priorities, you know.
Gregory - Though I admire your ability to research the subject of speaker designer interviews, your two examples are no more convincing than Fox News' "Fair and Balanced" pundits trying to convince me by only presenting one side of the story. "All the great designers" interviewed (leaves out an awful lot of talented people, degree or not) may feel time alignment of the drivers in physical space is an insignificant item (which to an extent it is, in a conventional box w/ X-over design, since many timing/phase errors are created by the X-over and can also be manipulated by the designer in the X-over, but that gets you a speaker like the Theils that have enormously complex X-overs [1st order] that make the speaker almost impossible to drive with anything less than an arc welder) but by their insistance upon using higher order (I assume 4th order) X-overs they are admitting that phase/time is an integral part of their design as that is a very important benefit of high order X-overs. (And phase errors at high frequencies are not discernable as the wavelength of the frequency is so short.) They just are not interested in the complex cabinets that other box speaker designers use. But by presenting just their viewpoints you ignore the many other equally fine speakers that do use time alignment in their X-overs and in the consruction of their cabinets (KEF, B&W, Theil, VanDerstein, Dunlevy, Wilson and all the imitators of the Wilson Watt). A quick cruise through most of the web sites for these designs will offer an equally compelling justification for time alignment. Most of these designers will design for time/phase correctness in the whole of the system referring to phase as time in the electronics of the X-over but time is not phase in the room, as implied by your sources. To get timbre right is to get time/phase right. If that is insufficient logic for you research the designs of "boxless" speakers such as Quad, Magneplanar and other panel designs. As I have stated before, one of the most unique benefits to their designs is the inherent correctness of the time/phase relationship. In most panel speakers it is difficult to destroy this relationship (with the exception of X-over to a dynamic woofer). Once you have lived with this sound it is difficult to accept most box speakers as correct and, particularly in the case of the Quad, if possible, people return to a panel speaker once they have strayed afield. Even if you disagree with my statement you cannot throw away the contribution these designers have made to the state of the art. If nothing else, we seem to have little more in these interviews than another design philosophy (rather like a discussion between Henry Ford and Enzo Ferrari on how to build an automobile). As John A. states, phase (in the original signal) is how we differentiate the location cues of a sound (but amplitude is also included in our mechanism) in nature, not an anechoic chamber. Timing is why so many stereo systems fail to produce a correct soudstage since the designer has little to no control over the position of the speaker within the room and in relation to the reflective surfaces of the room. (Again phase is timing but timing is not phase.) The ability to control a small portion of this phase/time relationship is why companies get big bucks for closely matched components that will respond in a like fashion in both (or all) channels. As I have stated in "old dogs" the phase relationships that must go into surround sound are a prodigious arrangement of phase and timing cues that, in many real world set ups, are difficult if not impossible to deal with. John A., I have to disagreee with you when you say no one thinks stereo sounds better with more than two channels. In the early stages of developing stereo many attempts were made to demonstrate the "desirablity" of a third, center, channel. One of the most memorable was the Klipsch demonstration with a "phantom" center channel that was derived from the common signals that existed in both stereo channels. (Which is how Dobly Pro Logic [a revision to Sansui QS, remember] derives its center channel.) Many recordings were produced on a three track open reel recorder that was hoped to be the playback media for the future only to be driven out of the home by the convenience of LP's. One of the advantages of our familiar Blumlein pair is the ability to sum the input of the two capsules into a center channel to produce a better "stage". As you read through the information in the Ambisonics web site (if you can find it) you will see references to the summing of the four capsules on the Soundfield mic into a phantom channel that can be used at the engineer's discretion. Are four channels enough to reproduce surround sound in your home? Don't know. The Ambisonics web site again makes reference to as many as forty channels if needed in the future. But, in theory, yes four speakers should do most recordings. As to additional speakers they would be used as Paul Klipsch used his center channel, across a widely set pair of front speakers where a hole in the middle would result. The same idea should be applied to the rear speakers; a large room needs more speakers. How's that sound, Kegger? Do they need to be discrete information? We seem to be coming to the conclusion that surround sound is a do it if you can format. As Two Cents points out, there is still a great deal of diversity in the mixing of all those channels of information into a cohesive whole. The mutichannel recordings I have that I enjoy (yes, there are a few, read on) have significant level disparities between them so I find myself resetting the levels on center, surrounds and sub for each recording. This reminds me of the VTA battle among phonophiles and seems obsessive and conterintuitive to getting wider acceptance of multichannel recording. But where to place the listener in space has been a problem with all surround formats back to CD-4 (definitely a do it because we can format). (Two Cents, if you liked "Crumb" find a copy of "American Splendor" with Crumb as the counterpoint to the story.) And that gets us back to our issue of THE MIX. Yes, we have for years been giving our money to the record industry for crud that a mother in law wouldn't want. That is the point of "old dogs"; what are you expecting and are you satisfied with the product you are buying. The music, with few exceptions (you know, that Madonna picture disc and such), is what we buy; but, as I have stated, in my particular case, when the medium gets in the way I become distracted from the music similar to opening a door or unwrapping a piece of candy distracts me at a live performance. I can tolerate a poor (not bad) recording more than I can a recording where the engineer seemed not to have a sense of what is real and what is not. As with other things in this discussion, other people may not feel this way. Gregory, I once again find myself at odds with your assertion that surround sound is more intuitive than stereo. Neither is more intuitive but rather more convenient. I do not hear the same sound from more than one source, but, rather hear a single source and its addendant reflections. In determining what sounds real our ears seek out the largest number of auditory clues to convince our brain. If stereo, with its imaging and soundstaging capabilities, provide a higher number of clues our ears will fill in many of the blanks just as our eyes do with trompe loeil. You can walk into any high end audio store and hear a convincing image before you based on the assumptions your brain makes. As to a surround movie being better than a stereo movie we are once again discuusing the difference between better as defined to be more realistic vs. better being more exciting. I can't find many of the calssics from the 30's through 60's in anything more than mono yet I find the movie is still interesting. John A., your rant about my position in this discussion was wonderful! And you are correct, all this belongs on the "old dogs" thread. But there are several threads that have become interspersed with the same commentary. Maybe that is as good a reason as any to let things settle before we proceed. As I see it we have determined that some of us (John A. and myself) would like to see the recording and equipment manufacturers strive to adhere to a more rigid standard of conduct that sets the real experience as the goal to match. I see this as the ability of Ford and Ferrari to produce a decent automobile but until Ford understands how Ferrari bulds cars they can never produce a GT-40. You have to strive for perfection to advance the art in a meaningful fashion. On the other side of the ring are those who enjoy the excitement of surround and are quite pleased with the performance they are getting from their present set ups. We have had the Texas chain link fence battle royal of discussions and both camps are still standing to listen another day. John A. is correct that the music is the message and the medium should not get in the way. If it does interfere, there are changes to look forward to in the future and we can only hope they will please us. If, on the other hand, you are content with the present state of affairs, you are the more fortunate one among the group as you have what you need in front of you. Now you just need to enjoy what is offered. There are no conspiracy plots to uncover. (We are forty plus years out from one of the greatest of all time and there are still no answers there, we certainly cannot hope to resolve the conspiracy of capitalism in a brief discourse such as this. We might as well discuss oil prices.) When John and I started "old dogs" we wanted a thread that was more interesting than "Which cable will make my sub thump more?", and I think we have accomplished that goal with a resounding amount of enthusiasm. My compliments to all who have contributed their time and effort. We have come to know others that share our opinions and disagree with our assumptions. That is far more than most TV pundits accomplish in this politically charged year. There will be another opportunity to engage in a similar discussion. Perhaps as more of the repondents have more experience with multichannel sound this will get opened for further discussion. As of now, I think we have done a great job and I look forward to another round in the near future. If anyone would like to respond to anything I said in this last post please do so. I will continue to check for anyone who three weeks from now decides, "Yeah, but ..."
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1236
Registered: Dec-03
Guys,

Thanks. I am not going away. I just have to look at how i spend my time a bit more carefully (look at my number of posts.....!)

My Rantz, "If you have taken offence to any of my comments all I can do is apologise as that certainly was not my intention." Quite on the contrary, My Rantz, your posts have always been informative, amusing, and a real pleasure to read. Not to mention as courteous as anyone could wish.

Sem, I fully remember that original thread. It is pleaure to know you do, too. I think it was "What's the best receiver for HT and music". All these issues came up and were discussed there.

Kegger, I often come back to your points last, apologies; they are so clear they ofetn hardly need comment, and I am struggling for time. But i do not forget: going back up a bit, after my rant:

"John let me get this straight are you saying that
the reason why some people dismiss surround music
is because of promises of recreating a concert or
original setting and not living up to it? "

Yes. Exactly.

"because if so they are missing the point of the
surround music format.imho "

That is one of the points. there are many points. it is important to distinguish which is which - no amount of money can buy technology that will address them all at the same time.

"unless the original performance had a unique setup.
that would require surround speakers to recreate
it. "

That is one of the promises. All the evidence is that "the industry" has no intention at all of delivering. I submit they have a different agenda. Yes, You have to know how the recording was made; there have been good recordings and bad recordings every since the first wax cylinder, I think. There is an interview with one of the ambisonics pioneers in June HiFi new (Jan; I so warmly recommend that) and his favourite medium apart from ambisonics is 78 r.p.m. gramophone records. He is not a nut, or a Luddite. He know more about the whole technology than the rest of us put together, as far as I can see. He invented several widely-used mike techniques.

BTW if anyone is waiting to "pull the trigger" on a "universal" player (My Rantz) and is seriously rich (anybody?) read the June HFN review of the new Linn.

I have not read all posts, above, yet. Let must just say I feel I have made many good friends here, and Gregory in particular has been wonderfully generous in respondingly to my questions, some quite half-baked.

I have learned much here, and I think we are still all on " a learning curve". I have some time today and will maybe try again to give a another brief take on why I think I disagree with Jan, and believe surround has something to offer. I will think I will take it back to "Teaching and old dog" otherwise that thread lead nowhere.

I won't map out all my work commitments; it is not relevant. Sometime In June I go to London and have and hour or two when I can go and buy an LP, DVd-A, from Vir•gin or HMV. But it really ought to be off the agenda. After that, I will get close, but not be able to visit, Lorenzo's audio salon. After that, I also get a two-day trip to Beijing. I will see if I get any views on OEM from my charming hosts, but the real business (at which I must do well) has absolutely nothing whatever to do with my new passion for music in our home - grateful as I am to all you guys for fuelling it. Hope you understand. Be sure I'll report back.

Best to all.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1237
Registered: Dec-03
Jan, Very quick one. June HiF news has review of five £1000, two-driver, top-notch speakers. The question addressed is "which one mostly closely approaches the reference standard?" Meaning LS3/5a. In their case, from Rodgers. The verdict is they are all excellent, but none comes close to the reference. Apparently there IS a current production prorotype LS3/5a, but it has to use recycled or "old stock" components, unless and until KEF can be persuaded to start making the drivers and crossover again. Thought you should know!

As regards you last post. I totally agree, except on one point. (But where are the promised surround recordings you DO enjoy.....?)

The point: as regards whether more channels are an improvement, and the centre, in particular, does anything for stereo, let me back off from theory and relate.

There is a Mozart flute concertos on Naxos DVD-A. It says "5.1" on the box. It isn't. I took me a long time to realize it. The soloist is placed dead centre-stage. Good balance, good music, good playing, good everything. Recommended. My centre speaker is about two feet closer the L and R main speakers (same height, but on top of that damned big cabinet). I was listening, and could not understand how they could make it sound exactly as if the flautist was surrounded by the orchestra (for that is the effect), not stuck out in front. I fiddled with the delays. No difference. When I stoppen listening to the music, and looked at the speakers, there was the soloist, the sound of his instrument coming, with pin-point accuracy, from that centre speaker. I got up and put my ear to the centre speaker. Dead silence. The centre channel carries no signal whatever on that whole disc. It is in 4.1. For the first time, you can really tell how far away people are. Stereo can't do that.

The case rests.

After reading Jan's and other subsequent posts. You honest, wise, sceptical, and good-hearted folk, all; there is real fellowship here. Let's keep it! I shall not go away; I shall just try to keep it short. Forgive me if I do not reply to all points.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 327
Registered: Dec-03
good stuff john but i do still disagree with the
promise of recreating the event with surround.

unless like a said the original event had some
different type of arrangement that surround would be needed.

and again that is my opinion that surround music
should not promise anything.just utilize the channels
to give us a more engrosing music feeling.

and jan i definatly think descrete channels are
a major bonus to the surround affect.

and i agree with you about the fiddling with the
speaker settings being very frustating but since
i have revamped my speaker setup i find i don't
need make much if any adjustments now.

i would like to see 2 more "for now" channels to
make it 9.1 and have the two front side effect
speakers, all channels being discrete.

and the way i have my rear speakers setup works
very well but works even better when i put in a
dts or dd es or ex soundtrack the differnce is
stunning.it makes excelent use of the rear channels.

so for now i do the best i can with what we have.
but if we could get 9.1 descrete that would very
very nice.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 201
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger,

I'm not sure about the disagreement between you and John about surround sound. I think both of your positions are right. There's no question that surround sound can "give us a more engrossing music feeling," as you put it, without trying to recreate a live performance. At the same time, surround sound can come closer to a providing a "live" feel to a recording than other formats. But whoever thinks that an electronic music system can faithfully recreate a live event is seriously deluded. It's a quixotic goal, but one that works in favor of the electronics industry as audiophiles continue to upgrade their equipment to achieve that absolute sound (hey isn't there a trade publication by that name?) I would rather listen to Van Morrison on a transistor radio than Yanni on a fancy audiophile system. Amazingly, there are "audiophiles" out there who seem to get more excited about the reproduction or recording quality than the music. (Why isn't there a music software topic on this forum? Why is it all geared towards equipment?) As noted by others on the thread, the medium isn't the message. The message is the message; it's all about the music.

There's also this: an escalation of sensory stimulation everywhere--for example, every Hollywood blockbuster tries to outdo previous movies with overblown FX and car chases just to wow us. (Jan, "American Splendor" is one of the best films I saw last year. The film and Harvey Pekar are American originals.) Aren't 6.1, 7.1 and 7+x.1 surround another symptom of over-stimulation? Do you really need it to enjoy the music? I think each person has to decide for him/herself. But we're being pushed down that path by forces with an economic interest in all this (e.g., almost all new AV receivers support at least 6.1). At some point, it may be wise to stop on that path to smell the flows.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 202
Registered: Feb-04
Oops, I meant smell the flowers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 115
Registered: Apr-04
2c,

"(Why isn't there a music software topic on this forum? Why is it all geared towards equipment?) "

Good question. I started a thread called Discoveries that's mostly reflections of music I've listened to in the last couple of days. Someone else started a thread for DVD-A/SACD recommendations that looks like it might be a good place to put music software discussions.

BTW...I believe I heard Jolie Holland on WNCW today. Definitely sounds like something I'd like. The song I heard, "mad tom of bedlam", to me was more reminiscent of Erin McKeown than Gillian Welch?
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 203
Registered: Feb-04
Ghia,

Yes, I saw your thread and hope to add my own discoveries soon. Jolie Holland was definitely a surprising discovery for me this year. I went to her concert because I got in free. I had never heard of her before. Now I'm a fan. I'm not familiar with Eric McKeown, but if she sounds like Billie Holiday had she grown up in Appalachia, then Jolie Holland might sound like her.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 107
Registered: Mar-04
2c,

"I would rather listen to Van Morrison on a transistor radio than Yanni on a fancy audiophile system."

How true!!! I love it!! Nothing against Yanni, mind you. I'm sure he's almost as talented as he thinks he is. Just not my cup of tea.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 116
Registered: Apr-04
2c,

I think the jazziness in the Holland song I heard today plus her voice made me think of Erin McKeown who is folky/jazzy/poppy/loungey (but in a good way). McKeown was a find for me a couple of months ago. Hopefully, the local store has a Holland cd in stock. I'll check in the next day or so.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1302
Registered: Dec-03
True story. Following my post of May 10. Thanks for your interest, everyone. Hope you like this follow-up. I've just got back from two days in London. Bought some DVD-As, some CDs (the last...) and LPs. Anyway, the audio part.

After sending KEF an order and cheque for a matched pair of tweeter coil assemblies for my 1982 Coda 2 loudspeakers (see May 10), and hearing nothing from them, I phoned up on June 02. No record. "Sorry, we've searched all our records; nothing from you". Lost post to and from where I live is frequent. I believe them.

me: "It happens I am visiting London tomorrow and the day after - could you possibly accept payment by card now, and perhaps have the coils shipped to the following address to arrive not later that 10 a.m. Friday 04 June? I am willing to pay for courier delivery."

KEF rep: "Certainly, Sir. We are sorry your order seems to have been lost somewhere, but I can be certain it was not by us. Nevertheless we will now ship them to you tomorrow, for overnight delivery, without charge".

9 a.m. 04 June FedEx delivery to where is was staying, from KEF in Maidstone. Bring them home in my cabin baggage late Friday night. No security issue at London Heathrow, rather to my surprise (they must have looked suspicious in the X-ray, surely).

Installed by me, this morning. Took ten minutes.

Perfect sound, as good as new.

Total cost: £24.26 for two tweeter coil assemblies. No charge for delivery.

Beat that for service!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 349
Registered: Feb-04
John A

I say ol' chum, that's a turn up for the books - eh what! Blimey, 'aven't seen service like that since the blitz. To get service like that in Orstralia, be like trying to get one o' them haemophilliacs to climb through a flamin' barbwire fence in his birthday suit! (u axed 4 it!)

Bet the ol' DVD-A sounds a bit alright now that those tweeters are a-tweeting again. :-)

Hope all went well with the trip John.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1319
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

You understand completely, I see! Yes, I suppose I asked for it. I admit I am not unmoved by the legend of KEF (Kent Engineeering Foundry) starting in a Nissen hut in Maidstone, boffins in overalls with passions for music and electronics, all that. They do not go as far as B&W, who claim their founder learned his electronics in "signals", broadcasting to the French Resistance.....

I actually now have those speakers at the end of a simple two-channel system. NAD T532 direct to Sony power amp (100 wpc) which, fortunately, has a volume control, and the speakers connected to that. So, no DVD-A through those speakers, yet. Before they crashed, I was using them as surrounds. They seem too good for that, now!

I am almost, but not quite, ready to join Jan in a slogan we could adapt from "Animal Farm":

"Four speakers bad; two speakers good".

The whole trip was a pleasure, MR; thanks for enquiring. I will provide a fuller update at a later stage. I know it is along way from Queensland, but you must visit that great city one day.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 353
Registered: Feb-04
John A

Thank goodness for the French Resistance! I thought the accent might help the return to reality easier (a bit too Cockney though maybe, eh what?)

A shame it was a flying visit for you, but your tweeter story was great. It's a rare thing. And yes we must visit London one day - it's first on the agenda. Oh, and five speakers great - there's always two there when you want them.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1324
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

Thanks.

That read like Cockney as spoken by Dick van Dyke in "Mary Poppins". Not that I know so much; when angry, or "tired and emotional", I forget my veneer of civilization, and sound a bit like Antony Hopkins being strangled, played through Bose loudspeakers.

Thanks for the comments. I will keep you posted. My shopping trip trawled in: Bach Magnificat EMI DVD-A (in 4.0); Shostakovich "Leningrad" Symphony Naxos DVD-A (in 5.1 - thanks Jan V, but "5.1 good"); Shostakovich Strings Qts. Rubio Qt. BrilliantClassics 5 CD set (I vowed never to buy more CDs - these are different/wonderful/fantastic - thanks, Jan V. - have played up to No. 3); Dylan "Blonde on Blonde" SimplyVinyl LP (excellent; thanks, Ben James - have played first two sides); DVD-Vs "Breakfast at Tiffany's", "Amadeus" (thanks, 2c), "Wallace and Grommit" 3-in-1 (in Dolby 2.0). I could cheerfully have spend many more hours and almost unlimited cash in Oxford Street. I looked for "John Mayall 70th birthday concert" and Diana Krall "Live in Paris" but failed to locate them. I also failed to get a Chinese visa, because of huge queues of backpackers hoping to visit Mongolia, and a more pressing engagement. But I got my KEF tweeter coils.

If and when you come to Europe, MR, welcome, try to include a trip to Normandy, and reflect. You can get the train, now. It goes under the Channel, I am told. That would have made a difference, 60 years ago. What a weird world. As Jan V. said, once, I suddenly feel old.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 357
Registered: Feb-04
John A

I noticed on the DTS website an item about the Swedish Broadcasting Assocation and SR 5.1 - you may be interested in the DTS 5.1 wav files for downloading and trying on your system. You may already know about this but just in case here is the link: http://www.sr.se/multikanal/english/e_index.stm


Seems you picked up some good music in London. Shame about not finding Diana Kralls "Live In Paris" or John Mayall's "70th Birthday Concert" - I find in the big stores like HMV they never seem to have what I'm looking for, but then I can't stand more than one minute in the place as they usually have several crap music pieces playing at rock concert levels at once. I don't know how young people can even stand it! (perhaps I do!)

Seems the only place I can purchase DVD-A's here is on-line yet no SACD's. I may have to re think my priorities.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1348
Registered: Dec-03
Mr Rantz,

Yes, I have burned some CDs with some of those 5.1 Swedish Radio wav files. They are very good. The DTS files are twice the size of the AC-3 files, and sound a whole lot better. There are some good music clips, some radio and demo things in English, and a nice channel identification and level adjustment file in Swedish.

The Oxford Street London HMV shop is pretty good. They have separate rooms for separate genres, so you don't get blasted all the time you are trying to choose. I will get those other discs one day. I do not forget!

As regards your re-think, you already know my position! Each to his own. There is enough on DVD-A to keep me happy for years. I also suspect with the NAD T533 I got superior performance at all formats, for the price, as a result of their decision not to include SACD, which is surely an expensive feature to include. I cannot prove that, but it sounds amazing and has excellent video, too. No regrets!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 262
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

Glad to see you had a safe trip and return. I loved the tale of the replacement KEF tweeters. Glad to hear some companies still care about their customers. Stay well. Cheers!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1350
Registered: Dec-03
Rick,

My pleasure. Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 360
Registered: Feb-04
Sorry for disrupting this thread. I'm having computer troubles and have not been able to upload to this thread today. Here goes ...
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1355
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

"Sorry for disrupting this thread". You haven't. Please continue!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 364
Registered: Feb-04
John A

Finally got the problem solved. For two days the tech guys at my ISP told me the problem was on my end. I could download but not upload (emails, ftp, etc) and this started after an adsl plan upgrade. Coincidence - not on your life! So the anwser - don't believe anyone and demand they try all possible scenarios. If I believed these people, I would have paid who knows how much for a techie, then only to find the ISP was at fault. Gee, do I sound angry?

Anyway, back to the thread:

John, I am re-thinking the re-think - I think! I've now found good on-line sources here for both
hi-res formats. So it's back to a fully universal DVD player and, as many artists are on one format only, I think having a wider choice will be worthwhile.

John I don't doubt the quality of the T533 but, as yet, it's still not available in the forgotten land anyway. Seriously, I often think this great land down under is the dumping ground for superceded items and we get hoodwinked with "new" labels (it shows being on top has its benefits).

Anyhow, I think the player of choice will be Denon or Marantz and the model will depend on how much I'll be stupid enough to part with. We've already spent more than plenty building up this new system and the main reason of course is long term entertainment pleasure. Once it's all in place even my very obliging wife would not appreciate me eying any replacements so any future audio purchase will no doubt be a downgrade to a lifestyle system for some tiny abode in an old age villa! It doesn't seem far off!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1366
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

I suppose you could say one benefit of being down under is other people get to iron out all the bugs in new products.

DVD regionalization is one of the issues that makes me puzzle over the world-view of marketing people. We have a collection of region 1 and region 2 DVDs. Even within region 2, there are a large number of different territories, with strange combinations of dubbed soundtracks, subtitle options, and sound formats (Dolby various sorts, and DTS). These don't seem to have anything to do with geography. I suppose it has to do with distribution franchises. One of my real irritations is choosing subtitles "Off" and finding that one of the subtitle options is still there, burned in at the request of some distributor who knows what is good for people. We watched "Pulp Fiction" recently, and it was greatly improved by taping black cloth over the lower part of the TV.

I see you are in Region 4: Mexico, South America, Central America, Australia, New Zealand, Pacific Islands, Caribbean. What a strange mixture. Southern Hemisphere, mostly.

I just fail to understand why people can't be free to choose which disc they want, wherever they are, from all available language and subtitle options.

Good luck with the deliberations, MR. I will be really interested in what you decide, and how you like what you end up buying. Surely Brisbane has a range of quality audio dealers where you can try things out? You should maybe buy a DVD-A disc or two, get used to them in DVD-V DTS, also some SACD/CD hybrids, get used to those in CD, then take these along as audition discs, to see what the benefits of the new formats really are, and how different players shape up. That would be the ideal.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 366
Registered: Feb-04
John A and all other good folk

A funny thing happened today. We deliberated! We made up our minds and we took "the plunge into multi-channel" audio. We visited our long time friendly dealer and made him an offer on a brand new Denon DVD-2900. He did not accept it and I knew he wouldn't, however we accepted his best price and saved a couple of hundred on the deal.

I spent all afternoon pulling down the audio shelves and setting it all back up to include the new addition. I did a quick set up and tried DVD videos - darn excellent - and put on a sampler DVD-A which I thought had 7 full tracks, but had only parts thereof. With only a quick tweaking with all the settings I can only say wife and I were very impressed with what we heard. Beethoven to the Doors. So I can't give a proper review yet until we get some new recordings and do the full set-up and tweaks. The 2900 is one heavy, well built, piece of kit and it's video and audio processing, so far, seems excellent. Exciting stuff this - more to come!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 427
Registered: Dec-03
wwwhhhhoooooohhaaooo RANTZ!!!!

YOU DA MAN!!

uuuuhhh ok i'm better now.

congrats the 2900 is some piece of machinery allright.

it was a little out of my price range "darnit"
had to get the 2200 instead and have been very happy!

i think you will too! good for you!

i'll bet it looks and sounds great.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Docdat

CopenhagenDenmark

Post Number: 89
Registered: Apr-04
Congrats My Rantz :-)

Incidentally I received my replacement DVD-2900 a couple of days ago, and since then I've been in audio heaven (I the short breaks between studying for my upcoming finals).

The wait has definitely been worth it. There must have been something seriously wrong with the sound on the first one, as CD's sound much better on the new player.

Yesterday I put on the 24/96 Handel's Messiah DVD-A, and was absolutely amazed. If I closed my eyes, I could easily believe I was there at the concert! Spatial definition and resoluton is astounding and the sound is very natural. Also lesser formats sound excellent on it, and there is a huge difference in the DTS and DD decoding compared to my T760. Using the DSP and DACs in the DVD-2900 combined with just the amps in the T760, is really an awesome combination ;)

I have some music DTS CDs that I almost can't recognise now, because they sound so much better.

With redbook CD's, it's a tiny bit better than my old T550, so I won't bother with a separate CD-player.

So far I've had no problems with any of my CDs, SACDs or DVDs, so I'm happy :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 270
Registered: Dec-03
Enjoy My Rantz!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1368
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

CONGRATULATIONS! I second Kegger. Great stuff.

I formed a clear impression you were homing in on a purchase. I was about to look up quality audio dealers in you area, just out of interest, and because of the discussion Jan Vigne started re dealers. I won't bother, now. I think 2c has a Denon 2900, too, if I remember. They are rather expensive where I am. Aus$1,900; US$1,300. In comparison, my NAD 533 has just come down from US$400 to US$330. That's a whole different ball-park, for us. At least they are plugging them, finally.

Re "tweaking" remember the important of getting those speaker delays right.

All your views, reactions and opinions on the great debate are of real interest to a whole gang of us, I know. Which colour?

All the best.

Adam,

Glad you got your replacement player and it is OK. Also glad you like "Messiah". Ours is still on order - you beat us to it!

Good luck with those finals.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 367
Registered: Feb-04
Guys, thanks, although I don't know if I should be congratulated for such extravegance, and believe me, we are far from "rolling in it!" However, after a long period looking at availability, comparisons, opinions, reviews and experiences had by good people like yourselves, I finally nailed it down to either the 2200, 2900 and discounted the Marantz 8400 on it's really, really, over-top-price. Although the two Denons are very similar in specs, the look, weight and robust feel of the 2900 just screamed durability. So we live in hope that apart from it's apparent qualities, that's what we'll pay for. Will certainly report back as we learn and hear more.

John

Yes, the RRP here is $AU1990, but we got a got very good deal (time wil tell) and thanks for the tip on the delays - yes, very important! Although we've just had a brief glimpse of DVD-A, I can already understand what you've been telling us about it. BTW, color black to match the other gear.

Adam

You describe how I feel so far. The quick test runs on 5.1 movies, DVD-A sampler and CD have already shown the outstanding quality of this machine. In fact both picture and sound seem absolutely stunning. Yes, good luck with those finals, the music will wait!

Most important, my wife sees and hears the value in our purchase. Phew!

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1377
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz.

Great. Good colour, too! More, please....
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
MyRantz - Congratulations. Now let us know how often you find great sound on the new discs. We have entered a new chapter.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 369
Registered: Feb-04
Jan - thanks, it is certainly a new chapter and I've found the first one!

All - I'll post this recommendation under music. I actually found a store that has a few DVD-A and SACD titles and chose Neill Young's "Greendale" and ordered DSOTM. This is our first N.Young purchase since Harvest many, many moons ago so, although there are many of his songs I like, I am not a NY fanatic. But Greendale DVD-A in full 5.1 has absolutely superb sound as well as having many excellent songs. So how to describe the difference?

I had really thought some CD's on our system sounded incredible and, although not doubtful of them, there was always this little niggling feeling in the back of my mind whether or not John A and some others were really onto something and that I might be just a little disappointed.

Well I can put that one to rest! I am stunned, my wife is stunned, and for those of you that had those youthful mind altering experiences with music all those years ago, I would guess [:-)] that listening to Greendale on DVD-A will take you right back!

My wife had gone shopping while I fiddled with the settings etc and when she came home and walked in while I was playing this title, not only did she comment on the smile on my dial but she could hear the it straight away. It being, the depth, the richness, the clarity. We put the groceries away, poured a drink, an immersed ourselves in the sweet spot and spent 76 minutes in audio heaven.

Okay, before you say "OH yeah, here we go" let me say we had purchased another DVD-A title: Natalie Merchant's "Tiger Lilly." While the sound was impressive, the recording was a little disappointing. So yes, the original engineering really counts in hi-res audio.

Thankyou John A and some others, stereo is fine, hi-res is sublime! More to come!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1388
Registered: Dec-03
That is just great to read, My Rantz. Looking forward to more.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 139
Registered: Apr-04
Congratulations, MR! I'm glad you finally got what you were seeking! I have the redbook version of Greendale but may go ahead and get the hi-res version too. I'm glad to hear that the WAF worked in your favor. I suspected it would.....women appreciate good sound more often than men realize, I think. :-)

I returned from vacation last night and have not yet plugged the audio equipment back in. At one point during the vacation, I realized I hadn't really missed my "creature comforts" from home...including internet access and the home audio system (!). It seems beach breezes, the smell of the ocean and good fishing will do that to you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 370
Registered: Feb-04
Ghia

Thanks, it sounds like you had a great holiday (time goes quickly when you're having fun eh?), you can't beat a seaside vacation when all is in favour.

Greendale is great. Listening to it in hi-res I can close my eyes and imagine being part of the band, although a couple of times N.Y. seemed to walk around behind us when he played the harmonica. Good trick that!

I'll give a more complete rundown on my views of these hi-res formats and the DVD-2900 after I get over the "WOW" factor - but that may be doubtful!


 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 393
Registered: Feb-04
Our Denon DVD-2900 and Hi -Res Audio Opinion.

Well, as far as our impressions of the Denon DVD-2900 go, it seems to be taking a while for the "WOW" factor to disappear - abated a little maybe - but this is one impressive player. The quality is apparent by the weight, looks and feel of the machine, hooking up the various cables to a very sturdy rear panel and, when dropping a disc soundlessly onto the tray coated with some vibration dampening protien material before it is delivered smoothly and quietly into the inner sanctum where isolated processing plants prepare for the coming task.

When viewing DVD-V movies we have not noticed one layer change (unlike our Luxman DVD player where the unit would momentarily freeze the picture) and we have played quite a few already, believe me. Colours and blackness are adjustable, though as yet, the picture quality has been wonderful (blacks are black, colours appear as they should) so the need to alter the settings has not arisen. Unfortunately, I can't comment on the progressive scan and component outputs as our older 40 inch rear projection television does not cater for them. Although S-video is also provided, we have this 2900 (European/Pacific version) hooked up via a scart cable and the interlaced picture on the 50 hz Pioneer is quite superb.

Having a 4:3 aspect TV, one disappointing feature of the 2900 is that the zoom feature has a min 2X factor rending the feature useless because of the amount of picture loss on the frame. The Luxman has a 1.5 zoom, a very handy feature especially for 2.35:1 type widescreen movies. Having said that, the difference using the 2X zoom on both machines is like chalk and cheese. Using the Luxman, the image is vitually unwatchable, with large pixelling and jagged edges. The same zoom factor with the 2900 creates an image that is just a touch blurry, but with smooth edging and no pixelling. A huge difference! But many universal and other DVD players have a minimum 2X zoom -- damn stupid thinking if you ask me! Of course, modern displays usually provide picture-sizing software to eliminate this problem.

What about the sound? So far, we have only hooked up the analogue connections and using the 2900's internal surround processing. The sound quality is excellent for DVD-V (both movies and music), DVD-A, SACD and it will even give average CD players a good run for their money. But mainly, the hi-res formats are what I wish to discuss here. The 2900's Burr Brown DAC's and Sony's second generation DSD decoder probably say it all, but with only having had this machine for a little over a week, and having purchased only a few hi-res recordings, I'm a little reluctant to compare the two formats, but I will anyway: From what we've heard so far, they are both outstanding!

The four hi-res recordings we now have in our music library are: On DVD-A "Greendale" by Neill Young & Crazy Horse, "Two Against Nature" by Steely Dan, and. "Tigerlilly" by Natalie Merchant. On SACD, we have "Dark Side Of The Moon" by Pink Floyd. Three out four ain't too bad! Taking "Tigerlilly" out of the equation, I'll make the startling revelation that the other three (5.1) recordings are absolutely wonderful. These hi-res formats (forgetting the preferred number of channels in which one wishes to listen), are really what we should have expected CD's to provide and although in more recent years they have improved, they didn't offer what we now have with the greater resolution, depth, and clarity that we, as audio connoisseurs, expect and deserve.
The 2900 really delivers these formats with great aplomb and my advice to others in considering the hi-res stakes is don't sell yourself short by purchasing a player that offers only one of these formats. Doing so will only give you less choice of artists and recordings. And while we were absolutely blown away with the incredible DSOTM 5.1 SACD, Neill Young's "Greendale" on DVD-A is both my wife's and my favourite (so far). But by no means does one seem a better quality recording than the other -- different, yes and both formats sound superb! That doesn't mean they all will of course.

To sum up my views on the DVD-2900 -- "OUTSTANDING!" Is it worth the extra over the 2200? Well, I couldn't say, but the fact that the 2200 shares many similarities and components, then it would represent great value.

Pros -- almost everything: build, sound, picture, ease of use and so on!
Cons -- not being able to back out of some menu options using the remote and quirky on the Diana Krall's "Live In Paris" DVD-V sound menu option.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 480
Registered: Dec-03
good stuff rantz.

i have a 16x9 56" hdtv so i use the component
video and have no need for the zoom.HA HA "lol"
SORRY HAD TO DO IT!

i am very glad you are enjoying your purchase as
i am also. i use my 2200 everyday and find it awsome.

the sound is so much better then anything i've had
before it, including cd's.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 395
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger - of course you did :-)

I am keeping the Luxman hooked up for 2.35:1 movies until we upgrade to a new display. We knew about the zoom factor before we bought the 2900. I envy your 56" hdtv - I'd be laughing too with one of those.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1481
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

Thanks for a great review. Anyone thinking of getting a DVD player for that sort of money, or even just wondering about any sort of upgrade, should come here, and read that!

"These hi-res formats (forgetting the preferred number of channels in which one wishes to listen), are really what we should have expected CD's to provide".

... and what we were assured they did provide.

It is a pleasure to read that you have reached the same conclusion as I did. On a different player, with different music, with a different system, on a different continent.

BTW I learn you have "SCART" in Australia, too.

I still have no problem or regret with my own decision to stick with DVD-A only, but undoubtedly you now have the best of both worlds, and you can speak from first-hand experience on the two formats; DVD-A and SACD.

I am sure I write for many in welcoming all your further experiences and thoughts.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 134
Registered: Mar-04
John A.
"I still have no problem or regret with my own decision to stick with DVD-A only, but undoubtedly you now have the best of both worlds, and you can speak from first-hand experience on the two formats; DVD-A and SACD."

Why is this? Did some past tragedy happen to you or someone you know to fuel this disdain of SACD? Perhaps a family member was run down by a Sony delivery truck? :-)

Of course I'm just kidding with you my friend. But there is a 'whole nother world out there' that you're intentionally not part of. I would hate to see you cut off your own nose to spite your face.

An inexpensive combo player could help to fulfill that need you're denying yourself. :-)
Please think about it...

(Please take this with the 'nod and a wink' in which it was intended).

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 483
Registered: Dec-03
sem i don't think john went out of his way to get
a player without sacd.

the nad is a very nice unit that just happened to
have a better price in his area.

and he had read up on dvd-a and sacd and found
dvd-a to be the superior format "technically" so
that made his desision easier.

and he believes that dvd-a will be the future format.

sorry to speak for you john and by all means i may
be wrong but that is what i have gathered from you.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 569
Registered: Dec-03
I know that John feels about Sony as many I know in Silicon Valley feel about Microsoft. I guess, with Betamax it was obvious that Sony didn't want to play well with others. They wouldn't liscense the technology and two years later JVC licensed their VHS technology.

While Betamax was pobably the superior technology, after talking to and corresponding with various audio engineers, I don't think any of them think SACD is superior to DVD-A. Not to say that one can't make an excellent recording on SACD, but they think the logic behind it is strictly for licensing purposes and not for performance. They feel that DVD-A operates so similarly to DVD-V, that it makes total sense and most engineers I talked to told me that one bit sampled hundreds of thousands of times will never be as good as 20-24 bit recording sampled from 96K to 192k times.

A great article at the following website for those interested to copy and paste:

http://sound.westhost.com/cd-sacd-dvda.htm
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1486
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

I used to feel quite loyal to Sony. We have two of their "Trinitron" TVs, a VCR, a Walkman pro, and nice, well-built stereo power amp. However, I got totally ----ed off with their "service" - they seem not to give a d*mn about anything old, including their stuff, and me, a "mature" customer. Probably any customers. Their Sony-approved dealer actually tried to talk me out of buying the Walkman Pro (one of the best ever audio cassette players) because it was not the latest model. I pointed out there would be another "latest" soon after, and the guy did not seem to take my point. I went to an non-aligned, old-fashioned audio dealer, and bought it there. When he enquired about the rest of my stuff, I told him I still had a "DIN" amplifier. He went straight out the back of his shop and soldered up some mini-jack-to-DIN in- and out- cables, for free, in two minutes, and they are still in perfect condition (but I no longer use DIN). Sony later pulled the plug in his franchise. I concluded they did not actually want dealers like that, but like the ones thay now have.

Kegger, Gregory, also Sem,

You are all dead right. I am (a) not flush (that is putting it mildly) and (b) suspicious of "hidden agendas" and (c) had a nasty experience with a CD Walkman. It is a sort of total world-view thing (Yes, Gregory, exactly as with Microsoft). A bit like not buying Kerrygold butter or drinking Guinness when their friends were putting bombs in UK pubs and restaurants (when I was a student). I was one of the last visitors to see London from the top of the GPO Tower (now telecom tower). They tried and failed to take it out completely, jjust took out one floor, but it had to be closed forever to visitors. Darned shame. You guys must now be able to relate to that, sorry to say. I have sort of forgiven them, especially now Cork is the European distribution point for Apple. You phone a local number and get Cork. Everyone there speaks the national language you are calling from, plus good English with a West of Ireland brogue. What parties they must have. Money talks. Prosperity makes people more civilised. You vote more effectively when you spend than when you vote, in our part of the world.

Things may change. If I can forgive those nice people for having friends who though I would benefit from an application of Semtex, I can surely forgive Sony, one day. If SACD really gets going, I will get a player. Who knows, I might be a bit less strapped for cash in a year or two. I would certainly wish to buy it from a real dealer, not a Sony Center.

Sorry about the rant. Nice of you to ask. Guinness is a really nice beer. Recommended. Forgive, but never forget.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 396
Registered: Feb-04
Yes, John and Sony may not wed in the near future, however, if the T533 had SACD as well I'm sure he would not have been deterred from such audio bigamy even if it meant playing favourites.

I read the article from the link kindly provided by Gman and it's the same rehash I've read elsewhere. No argument from me, but imo, it's the artists, the recording quality, the individual's ears and in the end, the music and not the medium that will sway the 'universal player' consumer.

I can see another forum war starting here that will end up going nowhere - like cables and THX. Does it matter which is technically the best format? Or is what matters is that both are available now? Albeit the sales growth may not be setting the world on fire, but with many audio companies now making the transition to 'universal players,' it's certainly not out of the realms of imagination that both formats will prevail for some time to come. The Sony/Phillips conglomerate will not be laying down too easily when one considers the ratio of that brand's owners over all others.

More formats = more choice. It's just music not war!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 285
Registered: Dec-03
Rantz,

"It's just music not war!" I wish it were that simple my friend. Market dominance equals mega dollars. Big business has always been warfare, and always will be. The consumer sometimes, sadly just becomes the cannon fodder.
 

Silver Member
Username: Gman

Mt. Pleasant, SC

Post Number: 570
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz--

I just linked the article--I wasn't making a major complaint. As a matter of fact both dvd players I have are universal *with DVD-A and SACD: the Denon 2900 and Pioneer Elite 59AVi).

So while I may feel that DVD-A makes far more sense on an engineering and (potential performance)level, I have no intention of cutting off my nose to spite my face. Meaning---there are SACD discs that I either have or want to own that aren't available in DVD-A. I am not that cranky against SACD that I will buy the cd instead.

Then again, if my financial situation was considerably worse, I am sure I would make a lot more compromises on many purchases.

And while I agree with you that the quality of the recording (and I'll add the quality of your loudspeakers and room acoustics)are far more important than the format; it strikes me that the main purpose of SACD is licensing format fees and not about whether the format is better or worse than DVD-A.


Sony is even making their recordings on multi-bit devices and Burr-Brown says these multi-bits are better than 1-bit devices for recording and playback (and they make both); so it just appears that Sony is making an older "Microsoft play" and using its music catalog clout to force market acceptance and get licensing fees. It is even reminiscent of Microsoft doing their ads on Apple computers.


Who knows--maybe Microsoft will come in with their WMA and other A/V formats and eventually take over the whole digital shooting match. I notice they appear to be making nice to both sides in the blue laser disc "showdown"--probably to make sure their applications are included on both, or whichever wins.

All the above said--I really don't have a dog in this fight. Just a sideline watcher that's only rooting interest is in having the best performing formats win. Simply a pro-consumer viewpoint.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1490
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz, Rick, Gregory

"More formats = more choice."

Therefore, "Less formats = less choice".

And, "Monopoly = no choice at all".

Let me put it thus: nothing Sony-Philips have to say THEMSELVES suggests to me that they really believe they have "built a better mousetrap".

if they had, they could start by releasing the same mixes on CD and SACD, so we could judge for ourselves. I conclude they do not wish us to be able to do that. I conclude there is a reason for that.

I could be wrong. If SACD turns out to be better, really, I will get a player, and buy some discs.

I am with Gregory, let the best format win. But when it is clear the playing field is not level, I prefer to back the side playing uphill. It just feels better.

And, as I've said before, I am knocked out by DVD-A. It is just obviously better than CD - better, indeed, than "perfect sound that lasts forever" (Sony-Philips, c. 1983). If I really discover I am missing something important, I will certainly get SACD.

Or whatever else lies in store.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 136
Registered: Mar-04
Well that's good John A. I really didn't mean to cause a scuff, well...ok I did, in a joking sort of way.
I don't know where this high-rez journey will lead but I do know that I'll be "surrounded" with great music and flicks along the way. :-)
And who knows, I may even give classical music a whirl....
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 290
Registered: Dec-03
John,

I totally agree with you, let the best format win, BUT that doesn't always happen now does it? People sometimes make bad choices. Remember BETA vs VHS?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 487
Registered: Dec-03
well the only i want to say is sacd is definatly
better than standard cd.

however they reach it.

it just sounds so much better than cd's do!

that's what brought me to want it.
heard it at a friends house and was blown away so
i had to have it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 291
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

Please give classical music a go, in ANY format.
Cheers!
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 238
Registered: Feb-04
SACD vs DVD-A?
VHS vs Betamax
PC vs Mac
Atari vs Commodore 64
Walmart vs your favorite store that went out of business
Bush vs Gore
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 397
Registered: Feb-04
Gregory,

Sorry, I didn't mean for you to get the impression that I thought you were making a major complaint. I was just forseeing what would follow and it obviously has. I agree that DVD-A appears to be technically a better format, but so far, my ears don't necessarilly agree. While some substance in the article may be on the money, some of the conclusions are a bit off, imo, because clearly, SACD is far superior to CD.

Rick

Agreed! We are fodder - always will be. But I'm more interested in music than worrying about who'll get my money.

"It's just music not war!" This was meant for us, not the conglomerates. Just trying to head off the esculation. Didn't work of course!

Sem

Bet you played with matches as a kid :-)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Easy choice on several of those above.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 13
Registered: Jun-04
I'll opine that, since I am just deciding now on a player, I am reading from all of you who already have the equipment in order to enjoy the benefits. I also have a strict budget and need to choose between buying a mahcine and buying source material (the stuff I actually want to listen to). Some of you do not have that limitation. I would LOVE to buy, say, a Denon 2900, but that means foregoing the purchase of about 25 discs! As a discriminating consumer, I want the best quality for the least money (for example, check out my new thread on the Pioneer DV-563A in DVD Players).
https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-video/56777.html

Therefore, if both formats (DVD-A and SACD) are sonically equal to my ears, I know I will want to go after content and the artists and performances that make up a good experience for me. And the corporate execs know this about me - I guess I have to limit the damage done to my bank account even though I am "fodder".

And thanks for all your thoughts!
:-)

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 138
Registered: Mar-04
My Rantz,
"Bet you played with matches as a kid :-)"
Now that's funny, especially if you knew me as a kid.

Rick,
"Please give classical music a go, in ANY format.
Cheers!"
I'm sure I will eventually. Though I never thought, growing up a product of the 60's-70's, that I would ever hear myself say such a thing. Heck - I'm becoming my parents: one of my DVD-A's is Frank Sinatra Live at the Sands. I can't stop playing it, I love it!! Holy buckets, what's next!?!?

John A.
Think of Sony, not as being spelled with three 6's, but more as that weird uncle in your family that no one else in the family talks about. That weird guy that is always trying to scam everyone.
There, they sound much less hostile that way, don't they?
BTW, I watched "Invasion of the Body Snatchers" on TV this past weekend. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 491
Registered: Dec-03
mr. rantz.

i usually end up agreeing with you and i do again.

yes dvd-a may have a technical advantage but it
doesn't matter as long as sacd is an upgrade from
cd than i want both.as having both gives me more
choices of better sounding media.

it's just that simple for me!

it doesn't matter who is superior or wins in the
end as long as i get better media to play.

and for me, you and many others we benifet from
both so let them fight it out as long as they
want to.

the longer the better!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1493
Registered: Dec-03
Sem,

Thanks! By the standards of this forum, we are old friends here. Both you and My Rantz know me well enough to know I quite enjoy being ignited from time to time, and it isn't so difficult to do.

The only single argument I see, speaking personally, for getting SACD is the Dark Side of the Moon. Thanks for the recommendation! But, to judge from all the previous versions, a DVD-A version will around before too long. Probably several. I would guess there will be a standard, new one, then "the original quad mix"; maybe others.

I am with golden arrow. I can't really afford discs, not at the rate I used to buy LPs and CDs. Having a family is great, but heavens, it costs. A Denon 2900 would certainly have been an unjustifiable self-indulgence, if you look at the A family economy. I am totally delighted with the NAD T533, as I have vaguely hinted in about several hundred posts. It was a great decision to go that way. I already have more new audio opportunities than time, or money.

I am actually enjoying the restricted DVD-A catalogue. With exactly 15 discs, now (I only just counted), there are maybe three I might just have bought on CD, and two of those would have been duplicates, actually fourth or fifth versions, of things I already have. how many versions of DSOTM do you have? All by Pink Floyd...?. Only one of my fifteen (Elgar Symph No. 3) is something I had vaguely had my eye on, for while, anyway, but had never heard, or owned, in any form.

Of my 15 DVD-As, the remaining 12 discs are things I would never have bought if it had not been for the DVD-A format. One Shostakovich DVD-A (never, ever had anything by him, before) led to another, then I went and bought his complete String Quartets, on CD.

Market Researchers please note! Here is the boost to the record industry you are hoping for. Not that they are interested in me; I am broke. The hostility is mutual.

So I guess I was in a bit of a musical rut, not much interested in anything I did not already know, and not much interested in things I did not already know.

I don't see the category "Classical", except in the musical sense (meaning Haydn, Mozart, very early Beethoven etc., and that is pretty frayed at the edges). I am tempted to put "Classical" on Jan's "Definitions and descriptions". I suspect it means, roughly, "everything I don't like" for a lot of people. Anyway, I don't advise anyone to start with Shostakovich.

Sony is no weird uncle. I think of him more as Big Brother. Though not as big as Microsoft....

2c, Rick, Jan,

Wouldn't you agree about "Classical"?

My Rantz,

More about the Denon 5900, please!

Rick,

Anything about DVD-A on the Cambridge Audio Azur player, please! How have you resisted the temptation this long....?! There are a couple of very good Naxos Mozart DVD-As. One is called "Don Giovanni: excerpts" or similar. Probably, like me you don't go for excerpts.

Or, unlike me, for budget labels?

[Throws away dead match; puts away matchbox]
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 15
Registered: Jun-04
John A., Sen, and all,

Yes, I am "Plunging into Multi-channel" in a way strongly influenced by economics. However, I see another benefit by this - the longer we take to upgrade and just learn to listen carefully to our music, the cheaper the technology gets. I used to work for a non-profit company and they were always behind the technology curve, but when they did buy, it was 50% less and more mature than if they bought at the early-adopter stage and the technology actually WORKED when installed. It does not mean we cannot experiement, but it should temper our initial purchases.

Also, my ears are not atuned to the new sound. I personally need a kind of organic growth period to understand why something sounds better than another and to actually have experiences to hear it myself.

I might actually keep the Pioneer unit I just bought (not sure, just started testing it). I might look at the NAD T533, too. At this stage, I am not sure my ears would hear much of a difference.

Another economic reason is that I am testing out a T752 (busted my budget)! THAT sounds way better than the SO-666-NY AV receiver it is replacing - from the first phrase of music on CD, I could tell. It is like the difference between a cloudy day and a sunny day! Funny, I have a slight problem with tinnitus in my right ear. With the T752, I don't think I have had a problem - very curious! Could it be that listening to inferior electronics and encoding formats cause health problems???

Now with testing the NAD receiver and Pioneer universal player, just from listening to one SACD (Yo-Yo Ma "Silk Road Journeys"), I now have to adjust when I listen to CD - its all mish-MASH (pun intended)! I was watching "The Mask of Zorro" and I could actually hear the ringing of the clashing swords! Amazing; I got goosebumps.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 401
Registered: Feb-04
John A

Thanks. That's Denon 2900 btw and even my self- indulgence and shameful extravagence would not permit parting with $4000 for a universal player.

By expressing my opinion that people should really consider both formats if contemplating a universal player, I am not being critical of your purchasing the T533. That was a decision you gave much thought about and the fact that you are happy with that decision is all that should matter to anyone.

But to everyone else, I'll reiterate, you'd be crazy not to consider both formats :-)

Another nice touch with the Denon is the faceplate SACD switch that allows selecting either, multi-channel, stereo, or CD tracks without having to go into the player's set-up menu. On the weekend, we really gave this thing a severe workout with DVD-V's, CD's, DVD-A's and SACD's and it operated smoothly and efficiently without pause. Apart from its excellent video and audio processing, the internal DD and DTS decoders seem to be of excellent quality also.

Again, we could not be happier with the 2900. For me it represents real value and although a little on the expensive side, it did not come without a sacrifice or two (have to wait until next year before we upgrade the Carrera)and, it has last us for quite a while. So far, there is no evidence to the contrary!

Looking forward to some more DVD-A and SACD titles! Hey, it's only money!




 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1497
Registered: Dec-03
goldenarrow,

Not many people here spend money for the sake of it. You've read my treatise on the NAD T533; I cannot possible say any more. One thing that surprises me about your latest post is the "night and day" difference between the Sony and NAD receivers (not arguing with that, but it is subtle), but you seem unsure about the Pioneer player (DVD-A/SACD?). Now, if you did not think, immediately, "Wow - that is miles better than CD ever was" then you should continue to think about a player. That was the effect of DVD-A on me. And on My Rantz, I think. There is much more resolution in DVD-A/SACD. Perhaps you heard that (Mish-Mash of CD) but just have less confidence when it comes to sources? Sound to me from the NAD/Sony comparison that you can trust your ears, they are doing fine!

My Rantz,

Great. "Only money". Sigh....
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 403
Registered: Feb-04
Great. "Only money". Sigh....

Joking - just like the Carrera thing! And you are a right about the 'wow' factor. If it is not evident with the hi-res formats, then it's either a poor recording or something is amiss with the equipment.
 

New member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 8
Registered: Apr-04
Ghia

Have not seen you on the board for a while. I wonder if after plunging into multi-channel adventure you are disappointed from your new multi channel combination and longing for the classic NAD stereo only set
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 18
Registered: Jun-04
John A,

Good thoughts! I think I meant to say that the NAD made my old CD's come alive just a little bit more that was surprising to me, and stereo FM radio, too, especially in Matrix 7.1 or EARS. I think it was also the tinnitus problem that got my attention.

I did not parse out the distinction between a CD player and the resolution of, in this example, an SACD disc. That too is a world of difference, more so. That analogy would be more like night vs. day, than cloudy vs. sunny day. My hesitance comes from at least two things.

One, I am already familiar with NAD. I have a T712 stereo receiver for the last ten years. When I bought the Sony two years ago, I had this itch to get a more "updated" machine (formats and features) and I also added the NHT SuperTwo's at the same time (I already had NHT, too). So, when I heard the T752 in 5-channel, I immediately, viscerally, heard that which I had been missing for two years. I should have bought NAD then. Proper thinking can sometimes help avoid future problems and I was regretting my past decision. Its not wrong to buy Sony, unless it is something I know was not best for me. I had the money at the time but chose to try to economize.

Two, the Pioneer model in question represents new technology. This goes back to the point I was trying to make earlier about cheaper technology and it maturing and implementing it right. I recognize that DVD Players, HT, HD formats in general are much more a moving target than a good receiver. For instance, I have an old Proton stereo power amp, part of which I use to power a homemade subwoofer. The amp is 15 years old and shows no sign of obsolescence. However, the Sony DVD Player I bought a little over a year ago is ready to be traded in to help defray the cost of the T752. Which makes more sense to sink money into now? I would say the receiver/amplifiers. I am not doubting the sound of the Pioneer so much as I am debating within myself how much do I allocate now to a higher end Player? I originally was going to audition a NAD T742 and Denon DVD-2200. But when I got to Saturday Audio and saw a stack of 742's and only one 752 left, something clicked in my little brain and said - go for the amps and the 7.1 input. The 7.1 input may not end up being a big deal (because of technology again, HDMI is coming out and may make the analog inputs obsolete if companies can agree on an encryption scheme). But the amps I will always use.

I hope this helps explain my decision-making. I appreciate the collective discussions. What we need in this new Multi-channel environment is more discernment and wisdom! How to think must be as important as fickle-formats-of-the-day.

I would agree with someone like KEGGER who said something about wanting some flexibility in choice and have the best of both worlds. I think I am doing the same and trying to stay true to what my heart (and my ears) are telling me. BTW, my ears say "thanks" for the encouragement.

goldenarrow

 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 148
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

I haven't posted much lately due to being on vacation and away from computer (and audio system) plus the topics recently have been such that I haven't felt I could make any worthwhile contributions.

I've got to go off to work now but will post later about my experience....MR has left me in the dust in sharing feedback so I need to try to catch up with him. ;-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 149
Registered: Apr-04
Who is it that is the Joe Henry fan? I'm thinking Gregory perhaps? I just found out today that he's producing Aimee Mann's new record. Sounds like an interesting collaboration.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 142
Registered: Mar-04
Ghia,
Welcome back. How was the OBX? I'd like to hear your impressions of Corolla and areas north.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 150
Registered: Apr-04
Sem,

OBX was great! I was a little apprehensive about the amount of growth I would encounter since the last visit. There are more houses now than my first visit but not as much commercial developement as I expected - except for a little strip south of Corolla and in Duck.

Hwy 12 still dead ends at the beach north of Corolla's town "center" so I believe the far north part of the island is still remote and relatively undeveloped except for the houses of fishermen. On my first visit, I had a 4wd Explorer and drove on the beach to explore the northern tip of the island and the trails in the Preserve. I now have an AWD Passat - I'm sure the AWD would navigate the sand ok but had concerns about the lower clearance of the Passat. So, I ended up not exploring the northern tip and I didn't sign up for one of the tours. We did talk about it but there were 3 kids under age 4 with us and we ended up going to the aquarium instead.

The "mid-Currituck" bridge has not been built. Personally, I hope it never is because that would probably spur a level of developement that would completely ruin the area.

The beaches were not too crowded, the fishing at Oregon Inlet was great and it was a very relaxing trip. Wish I could afford to do it fulltime! :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 152
Registered: Apr-04
Sem,

Almost forgot....the house we rented was ocean front and next to us, there was about a mile of dunes and brush that has not been developed. Two nights we saw a herd of 6-7 deer grazing and lazing at dusk.

Unfortunately, there was one roadkill deer on Hwy 12 close to Southern Shores. And, there were a couple of red foxes that had been hit. One morning on the way to fish, we saw a turtle right in the middle of the road. We stopped and I moved it off the road to the brush (in the direction it was heading - hope it got where it wanted to go).

Of course, this is just a tip of the iceberg. Before Hwy 12 was paved to Corolla, wild horses roamed the island. After the paving and the subsequent growth and traffic, most of the horses were moved off the island after an accident in which 3 pregnant mares were killed. There are still some horses on the far tip of the island and they are "contained" by a fence that stretches from the sound to the beach.

The price of human "progress" is very heavy for nature.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 153
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

Despite my lack of pontification, I'm getting a great deal of enjoyment out of my audio system. The NAD T763 is working flawlessly (and I'm not afraid/ashamed to say that, N.A.D) and plays beautifully with the Monitor GR10's (thanks AGAIN Gregory). I haven't used the Denon 2200 much with video yet (sorry, Kegger - I will one of the days) but love the DVD-A and SACD output of it.

To my ear, I can't tell whether DVD-A or SACD is the superior format. I think both are excellent. As My Rantz and others have pointed out, the quality will differ from recording to recording. And, as is evident from the many debates, stereo vs multichannel is a very subjective experience/perspective. On first listen, I think I enjoyed the stereo slightly more than multichannel. But, I'm leaning more towards multichannel, swayed in part by the Buena Vista Social Club DVD-A, Heart "Alive in Seattle" SACD and the DSOTM SACD.

Personally, I'm glad I have a universal player and can choose the formats/recordings and not have to miss out on anything. I have found one problem in the hi-res experience and that is the inability/difficulty in ripping the recordings (in stereo) to computer so I can download to my iPod. Because of this, I give a slight advantage to hybrid SACD over DVD-A because of the redbook track it has. This is discussed on this thread. But, this is a technicality - an irony that's caused some consternation for JohnA.

To my ear, SACD is clearly superior to CD, even in stereo. It is a fuller, richer, warmer sound in everyway. Although, apparently my interpretation on this is flawed since evidently a "true comparison" can't be made because the source recordings are different. Did I get that right, JohnA?

One thing I haven't reported on at all is the "old NAD stereo" is now setup in the bedroom. The c350 integrated amp is paired with my old Energy sub and a pair of Energy Take Two speakers. The source is the iPod! And, I can't get over how good it sounds even with compressed files (320kbps AAC). Is it as good as the system in the living room? No way! But, damn! It certainly serves a purpose.

All in all, I have no regrets over "plunging into multichannel" and believe I will get years of listening pleasure out of this system. I think this system will allow me to resist that "planned obsolescence" beast - except for the fact that I need/want another pair of GR10's for the surrounds but can't yet afford them....unless I sell the B&W speakers and my guitar (which I don't know how to play.)
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 143
Registered: Mar-04
Ghia,
Thanks!! I'm so glad you had a great time there. Its so heartwarming to hear that there's not as much development as I'd feared. It is such a special place and to see it ruined by "progress" would be quite wrong. When we started going there we stayed in and around Corolla Light area, but never further north where you stayed. I bet its beautiful there. We always seemed to have a bunch of teenage kids in tow that wanted a little more action than the isolated beaches would give them. Little did they know :-)

I hope to someday go back, though our last few summer vacations have been in the Caymen Islands and St Thomas/St. Johns, which are beautiful in there own right.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1519
Registered: Dec-03
Ghia,

Yes, welcome back to your thread!

"Did I get that right, JohnA? " That is what I read. I am inclining to Kegger's view. Who cares? One may as well lie back and enjoy it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 161
Registered: Apr-04
Sem,

The Corolla Light area is where we stayed too. This area has more houses than last time....but isn't dramatically different. Probably the most distressing thing about the commercial developement that has happened is the presence of the WINGS crapola stores in both Corolla (the store is south of Corolla Light, closer to Ocean Sands where there was already a strip shopping center) AND in Duck! The Duck store has some exterior aesthetic differences to blend in with the village architecture of that area - but, it still sticks out like a sore thumb!

If you return, get those teenagers into a 4 wheel drive and go north! It's pretty neat on the trails - even if you don't come across any wild horses (I saw three the time I was there), there's plenty of wildlife (snakes, egrets, strange insects, etc) and some great views of both the coast and the sound.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 23
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

Went to Saturday Audio recently to drop off my trade-in stuff. While waiting, I listened to the PSB Image T6 - what a beautiful sound! What kind did you get??? I would buy a complete set but have no more moola. That's the thing about this Multichannel thing, one has to buy at least the front three speakers in order to avoid any annoyance factor in timbre and voice characteristics. If I did not *have* to buy that stupid center channel speaker, I think I could swing getting a pair of the smaller towers. Oh well, there's always next year. :-(

This reminds me of one of the threads where someone was complaining that the center channel is all but useless and even detrimental to music reproduction. Some audio engineers use it, some don't. I suppose I could try bringing my center channel speaker with me and asking to hook it up and listen to it in the showroom.

Anyone out there have any suggestions for buying replacement speakers - slowly, maybe two at a time?(I currently have older NHT's which a fairly accurate but also unforgiving and a bit "mechanical" sounding")

The setup I listened to was the new Denon 3805 (with room EQ) and Denon DVD-2200. Natalie Cole's "Unforgettable" was a regular CD and sounded very sweet. Also heard a Bach Toccata and Fugue organ that was superb, might have been a Telarc label but not sure. I'm sure that the Denon hardware and the good recording quality of the CD and 5-channel discs had something to do with the sound, too!

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 153
Registered: Mar-04
goldenarrow,

I ended up getting the 4T/8C/1B combo from Saturday Audio. I listened to the 5T's,4T's, and 3LR's, then settled on the 4T's for my mains. I was afraid to listen to the 6T's because I'm sure I would have loved them.

Advice: buy as much as you can afford. If it means buying better fronts and then waiting a bit for the center channel, do it. Down the road you'll thank yourself. :-)
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 24
Registered: Jun-04
Sem,

You're right, you would have died and gone to heaven if you had listened to the 6T's. But, one person's heaven can be another's hell. So I might just be going back to listen to the 4T's and do an A/B comparison of the 5T's.

I also thought of using a pair of 1B's as center, its the same price but should yield better tweeter dispersion. I also have a pair of the PSB Ambient 1's (a dipole speaker that uses a wierd crossover that makes it in phase at lower frequencies, I guess below 3000 Hz and which pre-dates PSB's "bi-pole" speakers). I turned them just right so that the back speaker bounces off the side wall into the room). Sounds OK so far, I might not have to buy surrounds.

Thanks for your opinion!

goldenarrow
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1583
Registered: Dec-03
Personally I prefer "mono-pole" surrounds, for imaging. This "ambient sound" idea, with bi-pole speakers, are hangovers from attempts to bring movie theaters into the home, but with fewer speakers.

My Rantz has recently posted a very nice Telarc "how to" link, on
https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/61641.html

For upgrading in a cost-effective way, large L and R front speakers mean you really don't need an active sub at all, in most cases - it can still add something extra, but it is certainly the lowest priority, in my opinion.

I also think a centre speaker is likely to stick out like a sore thumb whatever you do, so there may be little advantage in worrying about timbre matching etc. for the centre. The first priority is to get the main four speakers right.
 

New member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 9
Registered: Apr-04
Ghia
Thanks for detailed description of your AV upgrade and your impression about the sound.
I follow your AV upgrading because it looks like my wishful set if I decide to go to multi channels. I am not yet convinced about superiority of the multi-channels formats on stereo for the classical music enthusiasts.
I read good reviews about NAD T763 and more about NAD T163 T973 combination. I also saw a cooperation of NAD with the leading speakers manufacturer DYNAUDIO in Munich AV exhibition. All that mean that NAD multi channels amplifier should be very good choice.
I have an impression that the big improvement in your upgrade was the Monitor audio GR10 speakers. Are they much better then the B&W CDM1 NT?
I still wonder what will happen if you connect the NAD C350 to the Monitor Audio GR10 speakers.

 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 25
Registered: Jun-04
John A,

Thanks for the tip from My Rantz about the Telarc web site. It has some great setup info, mainly because they explain where some of this "how-to" stuff comes from. I like the part that talks about the ITU publishing recommended specs for multichannel audio. It sets a good standard to start with. Then, Telarc uses those specs to do their sound mixing sessions so we know what we are getting when we buy a Telarc label surround disc. Also, I never would have known that the recommendation for home cinema is to set the surrounds at -3dB with respect to the front channels. Cool stuff.

It also reiterates your point of using front-firing speakers for surrounds, not the older dipoles. However, they do mention the future use of dipoles as a "height channel" speaker placed mid-way between front and surrounds mounted up high.

Right now, I have a complete matched set of NHT's that gives me the full-range bass response I want from all channels. These are not the greatest sounding speakers but not bad either. If I buy different speakers, I think I really want them to sound good together which means that I should buy a whole set of 4 at once (front and surrounds) instead of piecemeal and have it sound uneven for long periods of time. We'll see. I think a good way to start in multichannel is to follow what the Telarc engineers are doing and then experimenting a little along the way.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 606
Registered: Dec-03
golden arrow just like you said a good starting
point then tweek from their.

personally i have my surrounds "up" 2 db on music
and movies.

while i have my center up 2 db for movies but even
for music.

like many have said to each their own.
this setup just happens to work for me.

and placement of the rear speakers can benefit
from trial and error.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 165
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

I've only recently begun to listen to "classical" music with more frequency so I'm probably not qualified to comment on whether it is better as stereo or multichannel. I have only 1 SACD classical recording and the rest of my limited library are stereo CD's.

The SACD I have is Borenboim conducting a Beethoven symphony. At the moment, I can 't recall which one - so that must tell you something. ;-) I think it may be the performance rather than the medium that left me less than enthusiastic.

I have some Mahler symphonies and Beethoven symphonies on my DVD-A/SACD wishlist so, hopefully, I will become better versed over time as I get exposed to more recordings in different formats. After hearing 2c's description of a recent concert experience at the SFO performing Mahler, I'm inspired to try to attend some live performances, too. I'm embarrassed to say, I've never been to the symphony.

Yes, I believe the GR10's are a big factor in the satisfaction I have with my system. They have a greater range than the B&W's, especially in the low end. The low end and mid-range sound tighter to me. I was afraid that the high end might sound "closed" compared to the B&W's but that fear was unfounded. When I have some available time, I'm going to try to sell the B&W's so I can get another pair of the GR10's for the rear. Until then, I'll use the B&W's for the rear.

I briefly had the GR10's hooked up to the c350 right after taking them out of the box. To me, they sound great right away, even though I know they need break-in time. If I remember correctly, the B&W's took awhile to break-in and sounded better and better as they got used. The same is happening with the GR-10's.

It would be nice if I could setup a A/B test of the GR10's to compare the T763 and c350. But, I know I'll never do that. I'm just interested in enjoying the music and using each system for the purpose it is currently serving. :-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 166
Registered: Apr-04
Hoping someone can help me determine a piece of music I heard recently....going on few details.

It was an adagio. The adagio originally had a name that started with a "g" but later was renamed with a name starting with "a". I thought the announcer said the composer was Albion....but haven't found anything that "looks" like what I "heard". I know this isn't much but hoping one of the experts here can figure it out. Thanks!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 619
Registered: Dec-03
i have not really listend to much classical myself.

what recomendations for the new listener on sacd
or dvd-audio that is well recorded and good music.


GHIA any word on that beck yet!
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 247
Registered: Feb-04
It could be the Adagio in G minor by Albinoni
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1592
Registered: Dec-03
"Adagio" just means "slow" in Italian. Albinoni was one of these baroque guys (roughly 17th and early 18th century) who probably wrote dozens, even hundreds of concertos ("concerti") and sonatas with a slow movement marked "Adagio".

Ghia,

many radio stations now publish their playlists on the web; if you heard something you liked, try to track it. They usually publish the record label, performers etc. as well. If you heard it somewhere else, just ask the person who played it.

Kegger,

It is impossible to recommend something from nowhere. What I would suggest is maybe to examine movie soundtracks and see if there is something in one you particularly liked. Usually they include just a short cut of something, and it is always good to hear it again, but the whole thing, and therefore in the context the composer intended. For my money, "Master and Commander" is just stuffed with great music. There are countless other movies with "classical" that is easy to find and get a recording of. For example "Clockwork Orange" had bits of Beethoven's 9th Symphony, "Kramer vs. Kramer" a Vivaldi concerto for two mandolins, some Mahler in "Death in Venice"; it goes on and on. There are compilations called things like "music from from the movies", but none on DVD-A or SACD yet, as far as I know.

BTW apart from "baroque" (Bach, Handel etc; both born in 1685; also Albinoni, Vivaldo, Corelli - it was "made in Italy")), there is strict "classical" which came after (late 18th to early 19th C. like Mozart, Haydn). Beethoven dragged everyone out of "classical" pretty well single-handedly, with his Symphony no. 3, the "Eroica" symphony ("heroic" - originally dedicated to Napolean, but dedication crossed out when Beethoven realised what an a$$hole magalomaniac Boney was). Anyway, Beethoven started "romantic" (for which he got booed and the slow handclap, at the time). All the "eroica" imitators (!) started "romantic" which comes after classical, and lasted pretty well whole 19th Century.

These categories "baroque", "classical" and "romantic" are easy to tell once you've listened to a few things, not cut and dried, they can overlap, and of course there were things before and after. But they encompass most mainstream "classical" in the broad sense. Most baroque usually has some stonking good tunes in there somewhere, and was written for cash, mostly, not for posterity, so is fairly accessible, and not a bad way in.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 621
Registered: Dec-03
i guess i was just hoping that maybe there was a
standout among some. that maybe a few of the educated
listeners had come across.

as i know nothing of the music and what titles
are out.

i was wondering if anyone had found anything truly
exceptional/a must buy or just plain really glad
they found that title.

and i could take it for granted that it was recorded
well and others found it good music.

basically i was leaving it in others hands to point
me at something "wonderful" if it was possable!

yu know save me the trouble of researching basically.

i can listen to just about anything except country. "yu know john" lol

so is this possable? if not oh well!
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 249
Registered: Feb-04
John A.

While you're right about Albinoni having composed probably several adagios, there's one that is particularly famous. It's included in several baroque collections with Pachelbel's Canon (yeah, the famous one) and Bach's Air on the G string (not as lascivious as the title suggests).

Kegger,

I'd recommend starting with one of these baroque music collections and Carlos Kleiber conducting Beethoven's 5th and 7th symphonies (available on SACD).
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 316
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

I suggest you get the soundtrack from "AMADEUS". I think it will give you a good cross section of different things. Pick out the selections you like. You may find you like concertos more than symphonies and so on. I love classical music, and who knows, you may even love opera! Have fun......
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger - Give these a try: (not in any particular order)

Tchaikovsky; "Symphony #4"

Holst; "The Planets"

Struass; "Also Sprach Zarathustra"

Mussorgsky; "Night on Bald Mountain"

Stravinsky; "The Firebird (suite)"

Tchaikovsky; "Concerto in D for Violin and
Orchestra, Op. 35"

Aaron Copeland; anything, "Rodeo" is a good start

Bernard Hermann; not classical but symphonic.
Try to find a compilation disc.

Beethoven; "Symphony #5"

Gershwin; "Rhapsody in Blue" and/or "An American
In Paris"

Shostakovich; "Symphony #5"

Most of these are 20th century pieces, and will have enough happening in the music to hold your interest. Can't tell you artists and labels as there are too many to choose from and you may not be able to find something I suggest that I own but is now out of print. Most big cities have a record store with someone who knows classical music. Ask for recommendations. If you can't find help I would say you should stay with Telarc, Philips, EMI or Deutsche Grammophone. Some of the small labels have excellent sound and performances but are generally a 50/50 chance unless you have a recommendation.
If you want something "pretty" try one of the compilation discs. Look under things like "Music to relax to", "Music for two", "Music to drink with coffee and still fall asleep to". Get some composers names and then check out the section they are in. I'll probably rile someone here but if you want "p-r-e-t-t-y!!!" get anything by Mozart.
If I had to pick one piece to start most people into classical music, I would suggest "The Planets".
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 250
Registered: Feb-04
Oh, thought of another movie with a fantastic "classical" music soundtrack: Disney's "Fantasia."

My favorite use of classical music in a cartoon, though, is Elmer Fudd and Bugs singing Wagner ("Kill da wabbit! Kill da wabbit!"), followed closely by Bugs and Daffy performing "The Barber of Seville." I'm chuckling as I type. Pure genius.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 317
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Mozart??? "p-r-e-t-t-y"!!! WAZZZATMEAN???? LOL!

Let's just start Kegger off with Berlios, and scare him off............

Let's compromise... how about light instead of pretty?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1595
Registered: Dec-03
I second Jan's shortlist.

After my suggestion about movies, everyone surely knows ""Also Sprach Zarathustra", the opening of which was the opening theme of "2001".

As regards hi-res etc., there is a brilliant and inexpensive Naxos DVD-A of "The Planets" by Holst. Full of good tunes. "Mars" is good. "Neptune" has a long and famous bassoon quote from "the Sorcerer's Apprentice" by Dukas, which was in "Fantasia" (good one, 2c). There was once a cover version of "Jupiter" by a group called Manfred Mann. How old I feel....

"The Planets" is also a rare "classical" piece since it has a fade-out ending, like The Everley Brothers, and lots of pop. On "the Planets" DVD-A you can actually hear when they stop singing. I'd never heard that before, even in live performance.
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 167
Registered: Apr-04
Kegger,

Nothing on Beck yet! Maybe tonight. Some of my fave recordings so far (haven't gotten in multichannel yet):

Mahler's 5th Symphony (conducted by Leonard Bernstein)
Beethoven's 5th - will provide performer/conductor info tonight
Beethoven's 9th - will provide performer/conductor tonight

JohnA - will check to see if the station has a playlist...it was several days ago that I heard it and can't remember what time of day...feeling like an old dog.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1596
Registered: Dec-03
The movie "Amadeus" is excellent, especially the extended DVD; better than the original cinema release, I thought. The basic idea is the story of the worthy, hard-working, pious Salieri, a musical hack, who finds the only composer whose stuff he can see immediately is beyond anything he has ever thought of is a foul-mouthed, spoilt, self-centred and generally obnoxious YOUNGER guy (!) named Mozart. Salieri is right on all counts. As we might say today, Salieri has a tough time coming to terms with that. Hope this is not a spoiler. Great music. If anything can get me into opera (nothing has so far) it will be that. I have a new "Magic Flute" DVD still in its shrink-wrap.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 624
Registered: Dec-03
might be the wrong expression hear but!

you guy's "and gals" rock!
i knew i was in the right spot.

thanks ($00.02/rick/jan/john/ghia) for all of your help.
much appreciated.

i think i can find something amungst those choices.

is their anything really bass heavy, give the old
sub's a work out and or the (4)12" drivers i got pumpin!
(just trying to make up for small member) lol

just haven't really found something with extreme
bass!


yo $00.02 the cartoon stuff is funny.

john. rapped up like a douche the runner in the night!

 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 251
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger, if you're looking for floor-shaking classical music, try some organ music. I don't like organ music so can't give you a specific recommendation, but have heard some get very low.

I just watched T3 last night, which had my house rumbling. The movie is OK (totally predictable) but the sound will give your home theater system a great workout.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 625
Registered: Dec-03
oh yah i have plenty of movies that do it.

but no music.

just figured classical might have some organs or
horns or big Bass Guitars or something that gave
you some cool/different bass than i'm use too.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 318
Registered: Dec-03
JohnA.,

Take it out of the wrapper already.......please!

Opera is fantastic.....give it a go!

Cheers!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 27
Registered: Jun-04
KEGGER,

If you want to exercise your subwoofer, try the Telarc-label 1812 Overture by Tchaikovsky. Pretty much an old standard in the classical arena (usually played at outdoor town concerts during the 4th of July fireworks) - firing of real cannons off stage, voices, bells. I believe it was recorded by the Cincinnati Pops Orchestra and comes in both DVD-A and SACD. I don't own it but I own another good recording on old fashioned CD by the Stockholm Orchestra.

Also, I believe you said way back that you own a Pioneer 563A? I was wondering if you want to experiment with something regarding that player. I have a small thread going in DVD Players: Pioneer 563A Capabilities/Comparisons where I discuss the lousy PCM conversion if bass management is turned on while playing an SACD. Let me know (on that thread) what you think.

Oh yes, and thanks for your thoughts a few days ago about multichannel setup. This whole multichannel thing gets pretty confusing at times and it is good to have knowledgable input to keep from buying into some marketing line that really won't be satisfying in the long run. I have also tweaked with the center (I tend to want to reduce it by a couple of dB for music but leave it at a normal level for movies). I am still undecided about getting new speakers but I do have a few cables to buy and other bills to pay so it may answer itself.

goldenarrow
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 627
Registered: Dec-03
yo golden thanks for the info i will look at that
other thread also.

and yes to me the key to this whole multichannel
music thing is experimentation with both levels
and placement of speakers. it can make such a difference
when you get it just right. "for you"
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 28
Registered: Jun-04
Anyone know if any old ELO (Electric Light Orchestra) has come out in multichannel? That would be interesting to hear. They were the first rock band to play an electrified/amplified viola.

goldenarrow
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 29
Registered: Jun-04
John A.,

You mentioned a ways back that you tried to find Diana Krall: Live in Paris. I just bought the DVD from Amazon.com at a decent discount. I'm not used to listening to much jazz/blues but she has a wonderful style. Pretty good piano improv, not as great a singer (she seems preoccupied with playing piano sometimes) but a really great production all around. The sound reproduction is nice and balanced (using DTS), the bass player and drums come through especially well.

goldenarrow
 

New member
Username: Asimo

Post Number: 10
Registered: Apr-04
Ghia

May be you are right. We, the pseudo audiophiles just waste precious time on checking, adjusting and calibrating our system. ( Why pseudo, because the real audiophile have some 50.000 $ systems). Are you familiar with the endless debate about the influence of different cables ? Probably you just had the feeling in your last upgrading.
Listen to the music not to the electronics.

John A

As a relatively new comer to the opera world I think that you missing a lot.
I was a classical music enthusiast for years and just ignored the operas until a friend of mine that organize DVD operas club sessions introduce me into this phenomenal media.
There is all in the opera: great orchestral pieces, solo instrument and of course great singing. If you like as I assume cantatas, requiems, vocal Mahler and Beethoven symphonies you must like operas.
On top of that there are now the excellent DVD's with subtitles. No more guessing what going on the stage.
The opera DVD's are also best way to enjoy your multi-channels DTS, DOLBEY DIGITAL system if you have a wide screen TV or better a front projector and a screen it is a festival.
From all the operas Mozart Magic Flute is my favorite one. Listen to the Queen of night aria and you will see how talent an opera singer must be.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1597
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

If you want to give your sub a work-out "The Planets" DVD-A is pretty good; when the big percussion kicks in at end of "Mars, bringer of war" it is frightening, which is exactly what Holst intended.

2c is correct about organ. Bach's organ "Toccata and fugue in D minor" is famous, there are lots of versions. I think there is a (Telarc?) Bach organ DVD-A, which probably has that, and the performer is a great Dutch keyboard guy called Ton Koopman. Some large real organ pipes look like factory chimneys and really do go down to 16 Hz, I think. With surround - I am referring to "holophonic" - you get the reverberation in most organ music, usually it was written to be played in a huge building. I have an EMI Bach Magnificat DVD-A which has no sub or center channel (it is 4.0) and even then the organ bits shake the whole house, and clearly require all of my 60 W "continuous all channels driven" - it is the only disc I have on which I can get clipping distortion, and you could fry an egg on the receiver at the end. Musically speaking, organ can be a bit of an acquired taste, and Bach is not the easiest baroque composer, not at first hearing. He was not writing for posterity or for cash, he was servant whose job was to write and perform stuff to please his masters. He was one of the greatest, no question, but not the most approachable, imho, not starting from modern times and tastes. In his day, he was totally eclipsed by Telemann, who churned out huge quantities of tuneful and catchy stuff, and ran his own publishing company to sell it, with great success. It is weird that Bach is today the big name.

goldenarrow,

Thanks. My Rantz and John S recommended Diana Krall. I will look out for it. I have two open internet orders already which seem to have stalled indefinitely, one from Amazon. I hope to get some more time near real record shops in a few months. Since days of LP, I always like to browse, and look at the cover. I believe she is attractive...

Rick, Asimo,

Thank you. I know, I know! "Grand Opera" is just one of things that has never grabbed me so much. I have been to some operas (usually dragged along by friends with far more money than I shall ever have), and have a few on CD, including The Magic Flute (Norrington/London Classical Players).

I am working on this, though! One obstacle is the sound alone is not enough, not until you know an opera really well, I think. This is where DVD-Video surely has something to offer; opera was intended to be seen, as well as listened to. My other problem is language; I really don't understand the words, unless it is in English. Crass, uneducated, I know, but it is where I am, and there is only so much you can do. I have one or two English-language operas on CD but it is still sort of hard work, just listening. With the Magic Flute DVD (Colin Davies/Royal Opera House Covent Garden; birthday present!) I have now viewed the extra material and love all the stuff they have to say. I am looking forward to it. I just need three hours and a crash course in German. It has subtitles.

However, I really want to not need subtitles.

Can anyone relate to that....?

I envy J.V. his Italian. There is a good bit in Amadeus where the heavy guys are arguing about whether opera should be in German or Italian, and Mozart can't see the point; he just goes with whoever he wants to flatter.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 429
Registered: Feb-04
John A

Telarc has only two DVD-A's, one is:

Artist: Erich Kunzel/ Cincinnati Pops Orchestra/ Kiev Symphony Orchestra
Recording: Tchaikovsky: 1812 Overture:The New Recording

From the Telarc website:
You only have two DVD-A releases listed on Telarc.com. When will more product be available?

Presently, we are not planning any further releases of DVD-A format discs. There are industry trends that lead us to put our support firmly behind the SACD format. We have long believed in the superiority of the DSD technology on which SACD is based, and for the ability to produce a backwards compatible (hybrid) product. We will continue to evaluate this developing market and keep our customers informed of new developments by way of our audiophile newsletter.

Interesting?

 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1599
Registered: Dec-03
My Rantz,

Yes, very interesting. Many thanks!

"Superiority of DSD technology" superiority for what, and compared with what......?

"and for the ability to...." ? So what was the first thing it was good for?

Ah, well.

BTW I got my "Tels" mixed up! The Ton Koopman is on Teldec not Telarc; quite different. Here is a breathless review.

Ton Koopman: Organ Spectacular -- Famous Organ Works by Bach (DVD-Audio).

As regards the subwoofer workout, Kegger, the reviewer recommends this disc for removing plaster from your walls....
 

Silver Member
Username: Ghiacabriolet

NC

Post Number: 169
Registered: Apr-04
Asimo,

I took a leap of faith in buying the Monitor Audio speakers. I bought them without so much as a single listen since I didn't find any local dealers. Gregory recommended them and I did some research of reviews on the web and decided to take the chance. The dealer I purchased them from did have a 10-day return window so, if they had not immediately sounded at least as good as the B&W's I would have returned them - having to pay extra shipping charges, of course. Happily, that wasn't necessary.

I have seen the great debates over cables and find it difficult to believe the amount of money being charged for some. I would love to have someone bring in those cables and see if they made a difference in my system. It's difficult to imagine they would.

Based on a recommendation by Hawk, I went with cables from Dayton Audio. They have a build quality similar to Monster Cable and are cheaper. My system sounds great with them. I can't tell you if switching cables would improve it even more. I doubt it would be enough of an audible difference to justify the extra costs. Actually..now that I think about it, I have a $100 Kimber Kable connecting the NAD cd player. I suppose I could compare the Dayton Audio to that....nah, that cuts into the limited time available for enjoying the music! ;-)
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 635
Registered: Dec-03
well i'm off to best buy to find some disks!

i hope i find some good stuff,if not i'm blaming
you guys if i don't like it. lol
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1600
Registered: Dec-03
Tell is what you find, Kegger!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 319
Registered: Dec-03
Yes Kegger, please do.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 637
Registered: Dec-03
allright i ended up going to media play instead.

i tried to follow recomendations and read between
the lines of many posts i have seen regarding the
hi rez media and this is the recent purchase.


telarc tchaikovsky 1812 overture kuntzel / cincinnati pops
sacd surround.

emi: holst: the planets, etc previn.
dvd-a surround

steely dan: 2 against nature
dvd-a surround

the doobie brothers / the captain and me.
dvd-a surround

telarc classical brubeck. floyd. london symphony
orchestra . london voices.opie 2 disk set
sacd surround.

telarc classical sacd sampler II.
sacd surround.

tell me what you think!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Kegger - For bass:

Tchaikovsky; "Symphony #4"

Mussorgsky; "Night on Bald Mountain"

Stravinsky; "The Firebird (suite)"

I picked those because they give the whole system a workout. The Shostakovich and Hermann are great to see how good the dynamic range of your system is.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1603
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Looking forward to your opinions. You've got a good couple of weeks' serious listening there!
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 638
Registered: Dec-03
holy toledo i just got done playing the 1812 op.49

and i had it pretty cranked when the freekin canon's
went off i thought a speaker blew and popped until
i realized what it was. wwhhoooeeeehhww.

then i looked at the back of the cd jacket.

WARNING! THE CANNONS OF THE TELARC DIGITAL "1812"
ARE RECORDED AT A VERY HIGH LEVEL. LOWER LEVELS
ARE RECOMMENDED FOR INITIAL PLAYBACK UNTIL A SAFE
LEVEL CAN BE DETERMINED FOR YOUR EQUIPMENT.


maybe i should have read that first! yu think?


or maybe that should be on the front in bold letters.
insted of on the back.


jan.
thanks i will check them out.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 640
Registered: Dec-03
hey if anyone cares their are 1 minute a piece
test tones for 6 channels on the.

telarc tchaikovsky 1812 overture kuntzel / cincinnati pops
sacd surround. sacd-60541


i think it was rantz who was looking for some!

if you can get this disk you get sacd playback
multi channel test tones for setup.(pretty cool)
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1605
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Nah, warnings are for cissies. Telarc is just beating its chest.

You did say you wanted to check out your sub....
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 641
Registered: Dec-03
oh yah it does more than check out the sub.

when those cannons go off it has a crack to it.
like a gun.so it goes to your main speakers too!
thats what i heard which is very very sinular to
a speaker pop when youv'e pushed them to far.

trust me i know!
i've blown many a speaker in my day.

i was just glad it was suppose to be their because
i was worried at first.

 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 645
Registered: Dec-03
JOHN:

you never said anything about the end of my post:

Friday, July 02, 2004 - 05:56 pm:

i was hoping you would get the reference.
do you?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1611
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

"john. rapped up like a douche the runner in the night!".

No, no idea. Something to do with shrink-wrap? How long have I got?! Anybody.....?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 648
Registered: Dec-03
john it's refering to something you said on this
thread somewhere between july 1st and now.

one word is slghly changed but sounds the same!

so you can't do a google search to find out.

you guy's can give him hints if you know.
but please don't just give it to him.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Goldenarrow

Post Number: 37
Registered: Jun-04
Kegger,
Was it from a late 1970's song?
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 432
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger,

You changed more than one word - you changed 3! The Boss did a cover of this as well! I learnt what a calliope was when the Mann said it crashed to the ground!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1617
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you, My Rantz. Several heavy hints there, suggesting I will not know this one, even when told. And, then, I hope someone will kindly explain your clues. Something about Bruce Springstein and Van Morrison, I fancy, so I think goldenarrow is on the right track. I am right out of my depth, there, never having escaped from the 60s as regards pop.

Speaking of which, there was a great Desert Island Discs yesterday. The eight records were, if I recall,

- All You Need is Love (Beatles)
- Cwm Rhondda (Morriston Orpheus Choir)
- Long Tall Sally (Little Richard)
- You'll never walk alone (Gerry & the pacemakers)
- Mozart Piano Concerto No. 21 ("Elvira Madigan" Alfred Brendel)
- ...[A really cool blues whose name I did not catch recorded live at a café] (Thelonius Monk)
- ...[Something about "You're right, I'm left"] Elvis Presley
- Whiter Shade of Pale (Procol Harem; I STILL can't hear the words; it is definitely Bach's Air on the G String)
- Everything I do I do it for you (Brian Adams)

It was a politician and, Mrs A (with strongly opposing political views) is deeply worried her husband might vote for him purely on the basis of his taste in music. The guy's book was a yet unfinished biography of Lyndon B. Johnson. I like things like that.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 433
Registered: Feb-04
Sorry John - Van Morrison is the Man - I said Mann! You'll know it - or you were once dead :-)

You ever have a thing for some brimstone barritones?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 660
Registered: Dec-03
rantz your basically right 3.

but it also depends on who's version your talking
about. as you know their have been a few.

but i figured with what john said he would be able
to decipher.


john if you want to keep trying to figure it out
that's cool.

but if you want the awnser just knock the boulder
off of my shoulder cuz im Feeling kinda older
and
I'll trip that darn merrygoround for yu.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1620
Registered: Dec-03
Must be Aimee, then. Probably not Manfred, Thomas etc. I am completely out of my depth, here. Clues from all directions. No idea. Someone will eventually have to spell it out, which will be very boring, and I probably still won't get it. See if anyone else knows. Never been dead; not into baritones. Withdraws, goes into a sulk. Will bounce out of it. Perhaps make some coffee. Teasing from the land of Shirley Abercair, what next. Little Boy Fishing. Wow, that zither. Betcha never heard her, Kegger....
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 434
Registered: Feb-04
What do you mean probably not - you know when that light bulb above your head flashes and all of a sudden you get it? Well, don't get blinded by the . . .

This is Kegger's game so I can't give it all way!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New york Usa

Post Number: 320
Registered: Dec-03
Do Wah Diddy Diddy Do......John.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1621
Registered: Dec-03
Thank you, Rick! Oldies can get there in the end if they help each other, I think it is called parallel processing or similar.

Blinded by the Light - Manfred Mann (1976) tells us the song was actually by "The Boss", so his was not a cover version, MR.

I really thought/hoped Manfred Mann had faded into decent obscurity sometime about 1967. "5,4,3,2,1" I remember, also "Pretty Flamingo". I seem vaguely to recall they did a cover version of "With God on our side" (tremendous song; terrible version), about the same time as The Byrds "Mr Tambourine Man" (ditto), but no-one does Dylan songs like Dylan.

Jeez they were bad. I can see Paul Jones now, on "Top of the Pops", with Tattersall check hipsters, marracas, and a manic grin. Mr Mann with chinstrap beard, black polo-neck shirt, thick-rimmed rectangular-framed glasses, and an invisible hat with "intellectual" written in large letters on the brim. What posers, honestly. What a mis-spent youth I had. There are some early-mid 60s stuff I am deeply ashamed to know, and try to hide, like being good at Trivial Pursuit.

Mr Mann once wrote a letter to The Times, saying it was not true that cannabis led on to hard drugs, like heroin. Great controversy, and free publicity. As regards UK legislation, he was about 40 years ahead of his time. Now half the Government has owned up to that (not mention Bill Clinton), and to other things you could be imprisoned for in the 60s, I suppose you have to give them some credit for changing things, along with Sir Mick Jagger, Sir Paul McCartney, etc. None of them claim to have experimented with duodecaphony whilst at Cambridge, that's something. Though I was always fairly sure where Jonathan King was coming from, and the only surprise to me was it took people 40 yrs to find the evidence. It was on his hard disc, if I recall.

Oh, yes, Manfred Mann's take on "Jupiter" from "The Planets" was called "Joy-bringer" or some similar 60s touchy-feely stuff. I get it now. The penny has finally dropped. That was bad, too, imho.

See, I've been working backwards all these years. By 1976 I was into Bach's Brandenburg Concertos, and was deeply disappointed to find there were only six.

They are really, really, good, by the way. Get them played on "original instruments" if possible. This DVD-A does not qualify, but otherwise looks pretty good Bach: The Brandenburg Concertos. Recorded in Sydney Opera House, MR, local interest?

And you don't have to watch Paul Jones.

Thanks, Kegger. Thanks, everyone.

As someone else said, here, "how old I feel".
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1622
Registered: Dec-03
Not to mention "Do wah diddy diddy dum diddy doo" (thanks again Rick) and other inspired lyrics of that time.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 661
Registered: Dec-03
i thought that was fun!

and the only reason i started it was when you
mentioned them that song came right in my head.

i actually really like that song.

and allways sang it like that. (for fun)

and it's interesting seeing the different lyrics
between versions.

one says wrapped and another says revved.

but hey the things we do for entertainment!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 435
Registered: Feb-04
John A/Kegger

Nah - Springsteen may have written it but his version always sounded like the cover to me. Oh all right, I was wrong! But at least the song was educational - I never knew what a calliope was until that number came out. Think of my disappointment when I looked it up in the dictionary.

 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

Post Number: 159
Registered: Mar-04
Hi all. I take a couple days off and this thread seems to have taken more twists and turns than an angry eel. :-)
I always liked Manfred Man's (Chris Thompson on vocals)cover of the Boss' "Blinded by the Light" more than the original but maybe that's because I heard it a lot more. Didn't they also cover, "Spirit in the Night?" Not sure. I believe they also covered a Dylan song, "Mighty Quinn."
Speaking of Chris Thompson and covers, He wrote an anthem-like song called "You're the Voice" which was covered quite nicely by Heart quite a few years ago. Thompson also toured as a featured vocalist with the Alan Parsons Project's first US tour in 1995 where "You're the Voice" was performed as part of the encore, (to standing ovations - its a great song). This studio version of "You're the Voice" can be found as one of three bonus tracks on Parsons' live cd from around the same year.
 

New member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 9
Registered: Jun-04
Any news about Parsons' album, due for this summer?

Saw him play in Madrid in May, turning a medieval plaza to a Floydian soundstage. The man looks vital enough to keep on techno-rocking, and band contains some younger reinforcements.

Foreplay was Bonnie Tyler (yep, the lady who discovered the relationship between harmonic distortion and Highland malt). And would you believe it - he brought her back on stage to sing along. Truly surrealistic.
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 162
Registered: Mar-04
Arnold Layne,

Love the handle :-)
Looks like an August 24th release date for the new cd followed by a release of the DVD-A some time later. Its a new direction for Parsons, a move to electronica but with help on one song from David Gilmour on guitar, which I guess would make you happy. I've been fortunate enough to hear cuts a few months ago of four of the still in progress songs that will appear on the cd. A bit of a change from most of his work in some regards, although not so much if you like "Apollo" from The Time Machine cd. Actually some of the songs reminded me of a kicked up Kraftwerk.
Check out:

http://www.mysimon.com/A_Valid_Path_8_24/4004-4182_8-666968324.html?tag=txt&q=pa rsons

http://www.theavenueonline.info/site3/hot-news.htm
 

Silver Member
Username: Sem

New York USA

Post Number: 163
Registered: Mar-04
Arnold Layne,

Love the handle :-)
Looks like an August 24th release date for the new cd followed by a release of the DVD-A some time later. Its a new direction for Parsons, a move to electronica but with help on one song from David Gilmour on guitar, which I guess would make you happy. I've been fortunate enough to hear cuts a few months ago of four of the still in progress songs that will appear on the cd. A bit of a change from most of his work in some regards, although not so much if you like "Apollo" from The Time Machine cd. Actually some of the songs reminded me of a kicked up Kraftwerk.
Check out:

http://www.mysimon.com/A_Valid_Path_8_24/4004-4182_8-666968324.html?tag=txt&q=pa rsons

http://www.theavenueonline.info/site3/hot-news.htm
 

Bronze Member
Username: Arnold_layne

MadridSpain

Post Number: 13
Registered: Jun-04
When posting about that concert, I had troubles finding words to describe the music. "kicked up Kraftwerk", should've thought about that! Right on the spot. Can't wait until DVD-A release arrives...

Somebody else've noticed that hi-rez brings about revival for advanced music? Back in the vinyl age, I used to listen to Floyd, Crimson, PG, Zappa etc. Entering the 90s, when LP was no longer to be found in my home town close to the arctic circle, I plunged into mainstream and stayed there for quite a while. It was like red book just didn't handle the sung poetry and sensitive woodwinds, reducing progressive to dinosaur. Then there was remasterization, and hope. The future brought DSoTM, first SACD experience for me. And there it was: the distinguishable complexity, all those instruments, a slight tremble of nervousness in the voice... Does anybody see what I mean, or am I standing by the gates of delirium?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 737
Registered: Dec-03
i'm right their with yu arnold!

you could probably even hear each one of those
furry rodents jamming.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1663
Registered: Dec-03
I see exactly what you mean, Arnold. "the distinguishable complexity, all those instruments, a slight tremble of nervousness in the voice" could be written to apply to classical DVD-A, too. It is the resolution. I now go back to LP and just hear that we guessed right about CD being a "Dumbed down" medium.
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