Archive through June 06, 2005
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3843 Registered: May-04 | Hmmm ... from a world long, long ago and far, far away he is. By the dark side of practicality, young jedi, do not be swayed! Think only of the sound, you must. Your guide, the Quads must be! Hmmmmmm .......... |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 613 Registered: Feb-04 | John A. Happy to read that you're enjoying the Primaluna amp. Sounds like a keeper to me. The improvement in sound isn't in-yer-face as noted, but it's certainly there. The music has more dimensionality (for lack of a better word) and notes seem fuller and deeper. The amp takes about half-an-hour from start-up to open up. To improve the WAF, I suggest taking the cage off at night with the lights turned low, a nice bottle of cabernet, and Al Green playing on the stereo. Good luck, man! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1888 Registered: Aug-04 | "I get a bit queasy at the thought of the more sensible things we could do with it." Me too, John. Me too. LOL! But hey, if this beast is your thing, then congrats and enyoy. If you get half the enjoyment we are getting from our system and hi-res surround music then you'll be plenty pleased. And who knows, maybe the astute Mrs A will warm up to the Prologue 2 come winter. Pun intended. [grin] And cheers to all you other odd retrogressionists. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3144 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Two Cents. Yes, I agree. I find it difficult to find words for sounds. "Dimensionality" indeed. Yes, I suppose so! Your recommendation was a factor in my decision. I went to two dealers, and both recommended the Two for use with my speakers. The first dealer (playing Hildegard of Bingen from LP on horns...!) even directed me to the second, since they only had a One in stock (the price of which has just gone up £50 here). The One might be OK with horns, but probably not with Quad ESLs, they said. The HiFi News review of the Two says the One can be preferable, with a "Sweeter" but less "Gutsy" sound, depending on speakers used, and tastes. As always, the adjectives those guys use mean little to me. I am no poet. Thanks for the tips. I dare not remove the cage, we have children (responsible ones, but why risk it?). The cabernet is a good idea. I assume the model I have is run-in, having been used in the shop. Apart from all this about tube sound, I can confirm the power is ample. The max sensible volume ever needed is about 12 o'clock on the control. This is true of both CD and tuner. The Sony ES needed a lift for the tuner, up to 1 o'clock. So, as people have indicated, a 40 W valve amp has the muscle of a 100 W solid state. I shall rig up the old amp and do a rough A/B later today, a holiday, here. Mrs A is actually an astute and sensible person, a fellow sceptic. If I can hear it, she will. The absence of pain from high, loud violins on CD was the first thing I noticed. This will not be enough, on its own. One does not fork out a grand (in pounds sterling) for a tone control. There is just altogether much more there to listen to. One can hear phrasing as never before, particularly in inner parts, also timbre, e.g. the vibrato of individual cellos, not previously separated easily from the mush of low strings. I will have to listen to the comparison myself to make quite sure this is not all wishful thinking. BTW The second shop demo was Diana Krall through some Martin Logans. In their big room, it was just like a real performance. Exemplary. And from CD, too! I did not take my own advice and take a familiar CD. Anyway, it is how it sounds here that matters, and over an extended listen, and with diverse and familiar material. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3145 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, MR! Posts crossed. I will confess to you that all I really know is this amp is better than the previous one. There are some tempting sold-state machines for a similar price; I have not made a real valve vs transistor comparison. I guess I have moved up a notch in mid-range hifi, at least for stereo, and that could be about the sum of it. Re money, there is this strange phrase "Entry-level". The shop I bought from sells stuff I shall never consider, even for a moment. Not even at exit-level. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3852 Registered: May-04 | John - I think 2c was suggesting the amp will sound its best after it has warmed up for at least 30 minutes before listening. As Rick has discovered the transformers have a lot of iron and copper to bring to temperature. I believe his epiphany was at around 4 hours of use. I normally leave my amps on 24/7 for the best sound. You may feel uncomfortable leaving the amps on while you're not in the room, but if you let the amps warm up with some background music or BBC news for at least an hour before listening, I think you will find more there to hear. As to the volume control setting; it is dependent on the taper the manufacturer selects for their pots and the input sensitivity. Yes, tubes sound more powerful than solid state in most cases, but the position of the volume control is not a relevant way to judge. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 614 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, Even though we've diverged paths in the formats we've chosen, I think you're right on: It's all about the enjoyment of the music. Whichever format or equipment delivers the enjoyment is the right one. John A., I too am aghast at what passes as entry-level in the commercial world of hi-fi. Rest assured, the Primaluna amp, although not the best amp I heard, comes pretty close to much more expensive gear. When I was auditioning amps, I first listened to amps that were above my price range. The benchmark was the Conrad Johnson MV60SE amp and Premier 17 preamp (total cost of about 10 grand). The Primaluna isn't nearly as good, but delivers about 90% percent of the performance for about 15% of the cost of the CJ gear. I know trying to quantify performance is absurd, but it's useful in making the point. This isn't to try to convince to get the amp. You should only get it if you're completely comfortable with the decision and you know it'll make you happy in the long run. If you end up second guessing you're decision, then it's probably a bad one. There are always good amps in the market. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1144 Registered: Dec-03 | John, It sounds like you are on your way to becoming a TUBEOPHILE. LOL! I can only smile reading about what you are experiencing. The attacks and decays of the notes. Jan said it best. The inner resolution of low level detail. The liquid flow of the music. You can hear and feel wood instruments resonate. To me there is a harmonic richness and integrity, you can only get with tubes. I like turning on my amp at least an hour before listening. I find the longer it's on the better it sounds. As far as my CD player goes, I never turn it off. It takes decades for transistors to warm up. LOL! Enjoy John, and welcome to a new musical awakening. As you venture into tube rolling, it only gets better. Cheers! Oh, yes...... Jan you are much too modest on this one. We all owe you a debt of gratitude. Without your insight and experience, I doubt any of us would be listening through tubes. THANK YOU! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3146 Registered: Dec-03 | Wonderful feedback, friends. Many thanks. Waiting an hour for warm-up does not exactly facilitate A-B comparisons. I have to switch everything off to re-connect cables etc. WIth the PL Prologue 2, I think I am getting into mild distortion of massed sopranos in loud choral stuff at about 12.30 o'clock. As people have repeatedly said, it is not as painful as the transistor variety. I'll try it again with a warm-up amp. Quick question; could this be "microphonics"? Of necessity, right now, I have the amp a few feet away from the right speaker. Not in its path, to one side, but the floor is suspended, and things do vibrate in the room at certain frequencies. I would have to refer to my test discs to illustrate the point. There are trade-offs. Voices can be a little more distinct on the Sony. It could be a flaw, if sibilants are exaggerated, but it is always good to hear the words. In contast, blazing brass in painful (literally) on the Sony, and sounds more like the real thing on the PrimaLuna. Then one wonders about the recording etc. Which is more "Accurate"? - impossible to tell without having been there. The other thing to consider is that the Sony is a power amp, getting a signal straight from the CD player (I took out the RCA switch box for this test). The Prologue 2 is an integrated amp. Who knows what a valve pre-amp would do for the Sony. It would be good to go back to the shop with some test discs and my old amp, to see if the differences are still there. That's probably asking a lot. I'll say one thing for sure; this "All amps sound the same" proposition is total nonsense. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1889 Registered: Aug-04 | "It would be good to go back to the shop with some test discs and my old amp, to see if the differences are still there. That's probably asking a lot." If the dealer is worth his salt I don't believe it would be asking a lot John. You are thinking about spending a reasonable sum of money there. And it is you who has to live with your decision - and your family. And most probably your neighbours. And the dog. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1890 Registered: Aug-04 | http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=14973%26item%3D5778161 959%26 John, and other tube lovers The above tube amp has been sold on Ebay here in Aus lately. I think it usually goes for around $1200au at closing bid (but don't quote me) and I thought I'd post the link here for your interest and maybe a comparison for your PL John. John, as much as I would like to get you back on the right track, may I suggest that if the PL isn't up to your expectations, why not try out some others with similar specs and price? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3854 Registered: May-04 | First: "Waiting an hour for warm-up does not exactly facilitate A-B comparisons. I have to switch everything off to re-connect cables etc." Then: "I'll say one thing for sure; this "All amps sound the same" proposition is total nonsense." Geezers! For a while I thought you had slipped back into Gregory Stern's "I hear nuthingk!!!" ideology. In case you have not read or do not remember reading; never leave a tube power amplifier turned on when there is no load present. The speakers must be connected when the amp is powered up. To do otherwise is risking damage to the amplifier. John, now that you've tried something new in the way of amplification, why not try something new in the way of listening. Forget the A - B stuff. Trying to switch out gear from a power amp to an integrated tube amp is tedious to say the least. Dangerous to state the most extreme. Listen to the tubes for a few hours and then plug the Sony back in. No need to listen to this phrase on A and then the same phrase on B. Just listen to the music not the amplifiers. If neither one makes you smile, don't spend the money for a new amp. Very simple. Amplifiers should not be placed in petri dishes and observed for activity. Forget the hifi and think as if you were judging two performances of the same work. No more, no less. And remember; a jedi is never in doubt. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3147 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thanks. I've already done most of that. Yes, I remembered not to disconnect the cables with the amp switched on. I did some extensive listening using both amps today. Not exactly A-B, but as close as practical; trying to keep everything else constant, trying to change just one thing in order to see if it, on its own, makes a difference. This I think is just common sense - "scientific" in the best sense. Anyway, I have a conclusion from subjective evaluation which I am not completely sure about, and cannot explain. As follows. Sony 55ES. Clear speech on radio. Brittle and harsh on CD. Music on radio variable. Excessive high frequencies maybe cut by FM rolloff; "less harsh on radio" has been my consistent experience. Prologue Two. 8 Ohm taps. Smooth, rich, detailed, etc, predominantly dark, with speech indistinct. Prologue Two 4 Ohm taps. The best. More treble, but never harsh. The best of both worlds. Now, - am I imaging this? (It required some hours and one's mood and attention wanders). The Quads are nominally 8 Ohms, but dip to 4 Ohms at around 10 kHz. Could this explain a loss of treble using 8 Ohm amp output? I do not see how. Concerning which speaker outputs to use, the Prologue manual says effectively: "experiment - let your ears decide". Like Gregory, perhaps, I am always suspicious of my own perceptions, and am more inclined to accept something if I can understand why it appears as it does. But I do not reject things I cannot explain. That would be just as irrational, IMHO. Anyway, Jan - is there any sense in this first report on Prologue Two vs. Sony ES? MR, Many thanks! Will reply. I was tempted by Musical Fidelity, but thought I would try this "entry-level" tube amp, and from a dealer, not direct sale (which I also considered). The dealer seems in a special league ("We stock what we consider to be the best") without the distributor packages which I always saw in the other place. E.g. these guys sell both KEF and B&W- I have not encountered that before. We'll see. Jan again, "And remember; a jedi is never in doubt." Yes, and always right! That is the extreme Right I have always thought was embedded in Star Wars. Like John Wayne but with special effects. What we need is a blockbuster with a universal role model who doubts everything, including himself, and so seeks evidence for conclusions, never assuming other people are wrong because of who they are. Do you think it would sell? Not much escapist fantasy potential, there, that's the problem. More fun to imagine being born one of the elect, who can do no wrong, and who will lead others to fight on a side that deserves to win, and will. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3148 Registered: Dec-03 | Sorry to ramble off again. I do not know MUS amps, MR, but it generally looks impressive. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3862 Registered: May-04 | Your response to the Sony is your own response. I'm very familiar with the ES line but have never heard any of their amps on Quads. I have to say, the shops I worked in wouldn't suggest that combination. The valve unit will respond to the reactive qualities of the circuit created by the amp and the speakers. Valve amps inherently have a somewhat higher output impedance than a solid state amp (an obvious sign of solid state superiority according to some - again a jedi is never in doubt, this is hogwash). As with transistor amps, how high is a function of the quality of the design and construction, most specifically the transformer design when dealing with valve power amplifiers. The higher the output impedance from the amplifier, i.e. 8 Ohm tap vs. 4 Ohm tap, the more reactive this circuit becomes. As the impedance of the speaker rises and falls in relation to the output impedance of the amplifier, the frequency response, damping factor and the distortion product will change accordingly. This is the great failure of many SET valve amplifiers. The output impedance of a SET will often be higher and less well controlled than a push pull valve amp. Its design is weakened in its ability to drive a reactive speaker load successfully by the lack of feedback (local and global) which is normally not applied to a SET design. When this nonfeedback design, with its high output impedance, meets an unfriendly speaker load which dips and rises and places multiple capacitors, resistors and inductors in the path of the amplifier, the frequency response can be drastically off kilter. When the same amp is connected to a simpler load or a full range speaker with no X-over, the amplifier is much more stable in its response. By comparison to many dynamic speakers, the Quads are a fairly reactive load. They show a good deal of capacitance to the amplifier's output stages and an inductive load as well, though resistance is minimal by comparison to most dynamic designs. This combination of high capacitance with high inductance is normally self exclusive (or at least minimized) in a dynamic speaker and so many amps will not deal with this load very well. The best bet on most valve amps would be keeping the output impedance of the amplifier as low as possible to avoid as many interactions as possible. The fashion in which the Quads operate makes good valves a desirable match over many solid state amplifiers, though the high wattage, brute power solid state designs are often more suited to the rigors of driving a pair of Quads to full volume. (That's a pretty broad statement that can be refuted on several levels.) It is another paradox of owning Quads. The desire to market low or no feedback amplifiers has made speakers such as the Quad a more difficult speaker to drive than need be. While these no feedback designs have some benefits, they also have many limitations when put in real world systems. I don't know the amount of feedback the PrimaLuna employs to even begin to guess whether that is affecting the sound you are hearing. A modest amount of feedback should be a benefit when driving a speaker such as the Quad. The short answer to your question is what you are describing should be the reaction of the amplifier to the load of the speakers when utilizing the higher output impedance from the 8 Ohm tap. For the transfer function to work properly, it is almost always the best choice to judge which tap to use by the minimum impedance of the system rather than the "nominal" impedance load. In most cases the Quads should be considered a 4 Ohm load. When matching output taps to speaker load, you will also find the tube amplifier beginning to sound more and less like a valve amp in the sense of what many people consider "tube sound". In this case, on the 8 Ohm tap you have the more typical sound associated with valves by people who have never heard valves done well. As you drop to the 4 Ohm tap, you will hear the amplifer reacting more like a s.s. design since its output impedance is now closer to a s.s. design. Fortunately you should not loose the sense of valves being the amplification of choice. This ability of valves to acquire the benefits of solid state is far and away more desirable in my opinion than the ability of solid state to only sound like solid state. As you listen more to the choice of taps, consider which tap gives the most dynamic power. In large scale pieces or densely orchestrated works, the wrong tap will not have the same openess when the amplifier is asked to give its all. It is not uncommon, however, for the overall sound to be best on one tap and the power transfer to be best on another tap. This is merely a reflection of the complexity of the speaker load. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1147 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Please explain why certain small signal tubes "flash" when first powered up. I have had this with a few of the driver tubes (12AX7) in my amp. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3865 Registered: May-04 | Is this the first time you use the tube or repeatedly when you power up the amplifier? If this is the first time you plug the tube into a circuit, the most common cause is a small bit of gas remains in the bottle and the flash you see is the vacuum being completed by burning that gas. The black and/or silver at the top of the tube is what remains of the gas (Argon, I think. Will have to check.) that has been heated to form the vacuum. The discoloration is the inert materials that are left behind. If this happens frequently when you power up the amp, there could be several causes. If the amp has a slow start circuit, there could be a problem with arcing in the ciruit. The more common cause is still just some inert material being burned off as the tube reaches equilibrium. If the flash is minor and goes away I wouldn't be too concerned unless it is creating a signal through your speakers. If the whole tube botle glows blue as if gas is being burned in the tube, there may be a tube that is loosing vacuum. If the filament of the tube is flashing and glowing a hotter red than the other tubes, there is probably a resistor that has shifted value or a tube that is going to fail soon. Look at the amp in a darkened room to make certain all the filaments glow at the same level of red. Cherry red or orange is too hot; soft glowing red is correct on most amps. If this is something that occurs and seems to be more than just burning off gas, I would call the dealer where you bought the amp and ask if they feel you should have the amp looked over. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3149 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Many thanks for that description of what is going on. I shall have to read it again, and think about it. Also do some more comparisons of the 4 Ohm and 8 Ohm output from the amp. I listened to something quite different (a string quartet on CD) on the 4 Ohm late last night, and indeed it sounded more "open", as you predict. Wish I had time and space to experiment with different speakers and so on. I may try the KEFs, out of curiosity. Will have to get the others to go out for an hour or two. There is still a trade-off, it seems to me, between clarity of speech and, as it were, emotional involvement in music. This seems very odd - I have always sought "Accuracy". On Saturday, watching TV on 8 Ohm, I was asked to turn the volume UP - unprecedented! This was because of indistinct dialogue with the respect to the Sony SS, to which we are accustomed. On the Prologue, speech is clearer on 4 Ohm tham 8 Ohm, but still not as crisp as with the S.S. Perhaps we are all used to exaggerated treble. [[BTW totally an aside - Did Sony EVER make tube amps? -I can't remember one]] Really, the String Quartet on 4 Ohm Prologue Two was just luscious, dripping with interest and nuance -so much better than on the Sony. A bit like driving on tarmac, instead of concrete. Or unprotected you-know what compared with the insulated variety (KK in HFN uses this sort of crappy metaphor; I think he is boasting, and is probably insecure in that department). Maybe we need two different systems: one for music and one for speech/radio/TV etc. It would be good to separate them, anyway. But I still have a difficult time understanding why that should be. As I have said several times, and I believe it, "Sound is sound". Whether or not it counts as music, and what sort, is in one's imagination, not in the air pressure waves. On this, I tend to agree with G-Man. I think. Interim conclusion; keep the Prologue, use 4 Ohm taps, buy a fire extinguisher, enjoy the music. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3150 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW Jan, the high-volume mild distortion of massed sopranos seemed to be LESS with 4 Ohm, too. Is this possible? Am I imagining things? It is so difficult to make a fair comparison.... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3151 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW 2, the US distributor sales pitch is on http://www.upscaleaudio.com/view_category.asp?cat=36 I can wholly endorse their remarks on build quality. Amazing. I am now afraid my NAD player might blow away in the breeze, like a sheet of paper. BTW 3, what happened to Taz? Taz...? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2470 Registered: Dec-03 | The one thing you need to keep in mind John is that voices are generally in the mid range area. Think about a tv and it's speaker system. They generally do not get much bass or have much in the way of shimmering high end because for the most part they do not need to, they need good solid midrange so the voices are not overshadowed by other sounds. So if your trying to use a good sounding stereo setup without a center channel and the system is playing flat "unlike a tv" there's a good chance you may need to turn up the volume to get the voices to be heard clearer. When you listen to music the voices are quite loud as the singer is singing and not being drowned out by the music. So it very well may be the sony is exaggerating the midrange area where most of your voices are coming from when listening to the tv. If that is the case then the sony would make a much better amp for that purpose. There are times when something that is not playing flat is more beneficial for a certain application and a midrange heavy amp plus speaker system like most tv's have is a great example. Just think about what type of speakers are in the tv's you've seen, generally you have 1 fullrange driver that is rolled off at both of the frequency extremes. Or how about a PA system for doing announcments which is mainly carrying voice material, you wouldn't call that a great hifi system would yu? But it will do a better job of what is asked of it then a stereo system would. So I wouldn't be concerened with which amp sounds better for your tv but which sounds better for your music, as you said you may need/want a different setup for each to do the things they are doing to best of there abilities. A stereo amp and speaker systems needs are quite different from the needs of the TV! |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2471 Registered: Dec-03 | Also about the taps on the output of the amp. I generally use the lower tap then the speakers I'm using. usually for an 8 ohm speaker I use the 4 ohm tap. From what I've seemed to learn is your increasing the damping factor for the amp and generally that is welcomed by the amp. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2472 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick basically the reason why a tube flashes and only when voltage is first applied is because there are gasses in the tube which burn up instantly once the tube is energized. If you shut the tube off and turn it on again fairly fast it won't flash because the gas hasn't built back up again but if let sit and the gas builds up then it will flash as the tube burns up this gas again. Allmost all tubes do it at least a little if you look real close but tubes like mullard and amperex do it quite a bit. My guess would be the materail the inards are made from on those tubes give off more gas as the tubes metal cools down, then when eneregiized again it burns up this gas. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1148 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks for the explaination. Yes it only happens when voltage is first applied, and flashes very briefly. John-Keep your eyes open. I'll take all the NOS Mullard's you can find. I'll send a bunch to Kegger. I think he's trying to corner the market in the Mid-West. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3153 Registered: Dec-03 | Thank you, Kegger. That is a good way of looking at frequencies - I had not thought of that. However, I think it is the high frequencies that give most of the sibillants that make words intelligible. While the vowels are mostly mid-range or upper, most consonants contain high-frequency transients which we use all the time to distinguish between "shave" and "save"; "train" and "drain" and things like that. Classically-trained singers - all singers before microphones were invented - project their voices and exaggerate consonants so that they can be understood by someone litening a long way away; some consants fall off in energy with distance more than others. For example, they sometimes say "joy" as "choy". Also they trill "r"s often, for the same reason. Anyhow, I am beginning to feel very comfortable with the PrimaLuna feeding the Quad ESLs through 4 Ohm taps. The Quad manual gives the curve of impedance plotted against frequency and it is like a mountain range, with 4 Ohms the bottom of a wide valley centred on 10 kHz. How they get "nominally 8 Ohms" from that I do not know. I shall have to think some more about Jan's distiction between different sorts of speaker loads. "Increasing the damping factor on the amp" is graphic and I think I understand that. I think you, Kegger, and Jan, touched on the question of which taps to use, before. I am learning things all the time. Thanks, all! Where else would I get all this outstanding advice....?! The dealers I went to seemed to have time for customers, that's something. I shall go back and ask about these things. This all another reason to support dealers and not go mail-order. I have often found myself saying "friends on an audio internet forum tell me that...." Usually they agree, and have something specific to add concerning the gear under discussion. BTW I have not seem any flashing tubes yet. Will look out for it. I like the gentle glow; it takes 30 seconds or so to come on. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3154 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Rick, for the tip. Crossed post, again. Yes, I will look out for spares and replacements. I remember "Mullard" was the standard over here in the days when everything was valves. I must say I am not itching to start tube rolling. There is quite enough to think about with the standard set. However, I will take the cage off and try to see exactly what they are. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3867 Registered: May-04 | John - Forget for a moment "accuracy" and think "enjoyable". Not to actually deviate from the sense of how did the original sound as much as how do I think this sounds. I remember when Kegger and I first began discussing tubes and got around to tube rolling, you made the comment "that way madness lies". I agree with reservations. I don't know what the valves in the PrimaLuna sound like. Any amp is voiced to what the designer assumes is correct for the widest range of systems the amp might go into. The valves in your amp may be selected for a bit of warmth that will not change unless the valves are changed. Fortunately (depending on how you judge tube rolling) changing the voicing of a valve amp is only a tube or so away. The replacement of a 12AX7 might easily bring the amp up to the standards you are desiring without altering the basic nature of the amplifier. As you have likely noticed on this thread, the change of a tube or two can make some stunning alterations. Some input from 2c, the shop where you borrowed the amp, or even the manufacturer might be helpful here since I personally don't know the specifics of this amplifier. This is not a sales pitch for keeping the amplifier merely a possible way to achieve what you desire from what appears to be a highly rated amplifier. At this point I honestly can't tell you why you are hearing what you describe. It seems to go somewhat against the reviews I've read of the unit. Though I don't remember a review of the amplifier using ESL speakers of any sort. I can suggest several things: The cables might be worth upgrading. What are you using? The room itself. While working well with the Sony, there might be a bit of difference between the two amps that is being spotlighted by the valve amp. Repositioning the speakers might solve this, though I realize in the present house this is difficult to achieve on a permanent basis. But this is a room you essentially "plopped" the speakers into, is it not? Of course, the easiest thing to do is blame the Sony. I won't do that, it is a well made amplifier. But I will point out the Sony ES line has a sound that is noticeably unlike most other, non-Japanese products. It only requires a minimal lift in the presence region to have customers saying the amplifier is "so clear". Overall I'm getting the impression the PrimaLuna is geting you more of what you desire and the problem is somewhat minimal on a decent source. I'm assuming you listened to the amplifier at the dealer before you brought it home. Did you experience any of the muddiness through the midrange when you listened in the shop? |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2473 Registered: Dec-03 | Rick did you find a stash of mullards? If so I would certainly take some! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3871 Registered: May-04 | Yeah, Rick, if you want to get rid of any of those nasty ol' NOS tubes with their dirty boxes and those heavy, heavy plates and grids you know you can count on us to help out a fellow Old Dog. I mean come on! Mullard?! RCA is much easier to spell and shorter when telling someone what you're listening to. Mullard!? They're going to think you're listening to a duck!!! Rick, just think of this as those of us who care about you being willing to take this burden on ourselves. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2474 Registered: Dec-03 | Well said Jan and I hope rick understands it's all for his benefit! __________________________________ I underatand what your saying John and if you read just about any hifi review one of the the things they do is listen to female voices to see how the sibillance is and a good hifi system will not have over emphasys in that area where many lesser systems will sound very bad and give you the extended sssss's. That is the very upper end of the midrange and the start of the high end as some mens voices range from the end of the bass region into the mid. And that should again be right where a PA system or a tv should have it's best frequency response, in that middle area rolled off at the extremes, probably about 1000hz to 10k, not good for hifi. Anyway you get the point and happy listening. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3155 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, Kegger. I take your point. It is a good one. Yes, the shrieking female voice is something some of us might have to go into detox from, before we come fully to this higher plane of listening wisdom. Thanks also for the understanding, Jan. Many questions; I shall not write another ramble. I did not audition the PL in the shop - it was Saturday afternoon, I just about had the time, and could not see much point since their stuff was all different from mine. They had Quad 988s which are supposed to be close to the ESL 63s, but they were not rigged up. Their room was huge, too. I know it would have taken me many hours to get used to that. I had a longish chat, they boxed it up, and I hailed a cab. I had to lug it a couple of blocks at the other end. Man, is it heavy. I am actually delighted with the Prologue Two. It sounds much more natural and musical. The Sony was bought without much thought, in a foreign land, just because I needed a replacement amp, saw it in a window, and thought it was a good buy in Watts per unit cash, and a reputable make. I know better, now! It was being cut off from trusted dealers and friends whose opinions count. I think I shall just write that off. Actually, it was superceded by the NAD 5.1 T760 for most purposes. Whether that sounds equally shrill - I shall have to listen again, when I get it back. It did not notice much difference between those two amps, Sony ES and NAD, in stereo mode, to be honest. In time I am inclined to think the family can have the NAD and all the KEFs, and the sub, for movies, and I shall regress into a stereo world with Quad, PrimaLuna, and my Rega P3, and perhaps a (SA)CD player. This is assuming we can get enough domestic lebensraum. If I am still agonizing, it is around the cost "is it worth it?" - and you guys can't answer that, I know! The Quads are toed-in about 30º and a little way in from the end wall, either side of a curtain, drawn over a window, in front of which is this naff LCD TV. Talk about a clash of styles with the Prologue Two.... Also, I have found the Quads benefit from the front feet each being on a stack of four 2p pieces, tilting them up a few degrees. I may investigate stands, eventually. I promised a pic and maybe will be able to do this in a couple of weeks. I still think the Quads are the only speakers I shall ever want. Probably I am slowly discovering that they reveal too much of an inferior, top-heavy amplifier, designed to grab attention with its bright sound. I listened to the CD reissue of the famous Elgar cello concerto recording. Jeez, it is is SO much better with the Prologue Two. The top register of the cello was screaming like a chalk on glass on the Sony, and, again, the brass was just painful. Here's another rub, though - Mrs A is in "well, if that's what you want" mode. Rick, fellow family man - how do the Barneses relate to Jolida and Spendor? Do they listen? Or is it watching a passing train again.....?! Must keep a sense of proportion in all this (repeat over to oneself many times). |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1150 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan-Kegger, If and when I find that stash of Mullards, It will be my pleasure to share the wealth. You are all too kind not to let me carry that burden alone. If John comes through, we're in. John, I think Jan is on the right track. I don't think your problem is with the amp or speakers. Now that you have come to believe all amps don't sound the same, it's time to understand all wire does not sound the same. I think you once stated you use the interconnects that come with the component? I think just a good pair of interconnects will solve the problem. You now have gear that can be maximized by upgraded wire. If you are still skeptical, I'll ship you a pair of interconnects. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3156 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW there are currently five consumer reviews on this forum: http://www.audioreview.com/pscAudioReview/Amplification/Integrated+Amplifiers/Prologue,Two/PRD_324081_2717crx.aspx#reviews I gather I can get and install a phono board, for one of the inputs, in due course. That's a plus. Just to try and lighten up, here is a pic from the UK distributor mentioned above, somewhere.  |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3157 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks again, Rick. I have recently installed some very short (0.5 m) quality-looking, sturdy, but unbranded interconnects with gold plugs etc. This could be another factor; I don't know. My tuner has a DIN output, and a DIN-to-RCA adapter. BTW the gold sockets and speaker terminals on the PL2 are a work of art. See below. Source, as above: http://www.pistolmusic.co.uk/product_info.php?product_id=2  |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3872 Registered: May-04 | I had wondered whether you had seen those reviews and assumed you had done some research. "My Sony XA7es was driving me crazy with its digital hardness, so the Primaluna just helps take that bite out of the digital and keeps me engaged without a headache from long listening." "And if you like to tweak your hi-fi gear, there is nothing more funnier than a tube amplifier :-)) Let me be clear: the original tubes sound great already. I simply have had some fun by tuning the sound of it with some tube swapping experiment (and for a couple of them I eventually went back to the original tubes )." Does anyone else have any experience with the KT-88 valve? As I've stated the tube will sound like the circuit it is placed within, but I've always found the KT-88, and most particularly its relative the 6550, to be a bit less appealing than a KT-66 or EL-34. A bit of brute force strength compared to the sweeter sounds from the smaller valves. I may be muddling the waters even more for John, but I'm beginning to feel the specific tube selection might be worth looking into. John - I think my advice is mostly as I posted above. I would spend some time listening in the shop before I purchased unless there is a generous trade policy. Or unless I am misreading your posts. The time to go beyond generic cables has come when you own valves and ESL's, John. You need to know what manufacturer's brand is on your cables. Even if it is Black and Decker, the extension cord transformare speaker cable which the US Quad rep is stated to use for shows. I'm certain the shop can assist you with some value priced options. Don't use the cables as tone controls or filters but instead as a talented espresso barista to eliminate the undesirable elements and enhance the delicate flavors of the original brew. Think Florence, John, Naples, Bologna and Turin. Dining at the foot of Monte Blanc in Susa, the town of my ancestors. SCREW THE HIFI, TAKE A TRIP TO ITALY!!! Sorry, that just came out. Personal desires got the better of me. Go for the amp, John, you won't regret the adventure. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 616 Registered: Feb-04 | John A., I don't have much to add to Rick, Kegger and Jan's comments. They have much more knowledge and experience than I with tubes. I can share my personal experience with the Primaluna though. Regarding the speaker taps, if you have the same instruction manual as I, it recommends you experiment with the different taps despite your speaker rating. When the amp was breaking in, I actually preferred the sound using the 8 ohm taps (my speakers have a 4 ohm load), which helped with the slightly dry and hard sound during break-in. It sounded more tube-like on the 8 ohm taps. After about 60 hours, I tried switching over to the 4 ohm taps. There was noticeable improvement in the bass and the amp just seemed to have a better grip on the music, especially rock. I now stick to the 4 ohm taps. As I mentioned in an earlier post, the stock tubes sound very good. They are Electro Harmonix 12ax7 and 12au7 tubes and Genalex-type KT88s. My sense is that the stock tubes were selected to give the best performance at a price point appropriate for an "entry level" amp. The N.A. distributor also recommends the following set of tubes for those inclined to roll: Sylvania 12ax7, Mullard 12au7, and Svetlana KT88. I've had the amp for a few months now and have been satisfied with the stock tubes, but now curiosity is getting the better of me. I'm going to start rolling tubes, starting with the 12ax7's. After all, the ability to tailor the sound to suit your taste is one of the benefits of a tube amp. Someday, I'll try EL34's, which, as Jan mentioned, are supposed to give a more a more tubey, "sweeter" sound than the KT88's. I've been listening to a lot of rock music lately, so the punch and bass of the KT88's seem to fit the bill. If I start listening to more chamber music and female jazz vocals, I'll be tempted to switch over to the EL34's. Finally, I completely support going with separate home theater and stereo systems, if you have the room. I've got my P2 powering my VPI tt, CAL cd player, and Denon universal player to my AP speakers in one room. In another room, I have the telly, NAD receiver, Toshiba DVD player, and KEF surround speakers. There is something psychologically right about separating pure music from the AV stuff. But that's me. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1894 Registered: Aug-04 | Well I don't have much to add either. I heard rumours that Spielberg is doing Jurassic Park IV so I suggest all you guys might want to role up for the auditions - his stock dinosaurs are a bit old hat now. John - I love Mrs A's response - "well, if that's what you want." LOL! Two Cents "There is something psychologically right about separating pure music from the AV stuff. But that's me." I can't agree, but as you said - that's you. But does not a system need to deliver sound regardless of the source. Because whether it is a/v or just music - it is still just sound - and if the quality of the gear is there, all sound should be reproduced to deliver a pleasurable experience. When we listen to music in our house, I can assure you we do not go into a depression or develop some bi-polar tendencies or become psychotic because of the blank screen against the wall. As you said a few posts back: "It's all about the enjoyment of the music." I couldn't agree more. But from what I have gleaned from this thread, it seems it is more about the quest in getting these ancient contraptions to get the music right. At the end, I hope you all do - because music is the one thing about which so many people can differ and yet feel the same. I get the feeling sometimes that if one is going to get involved in 'tubes' it might be just as easy to get a Meccano set - or play-dough perhaps. But hey guys, if a psuedo hearth/room heater audio device that emits strange flashes and glows red and needs fencing off from the kids is your thing - then please enjoy - for who am I to question the sanity of others. :-) |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 617 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, Play-dough is fun! Lego is funner! Tube amp is funnest! ;-) We could have a very interesting discussion on whether there are any differences in the characteristics between an all-audio system and an AV system. I'd like to, but right now I'm short on time. So will post later. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3875 Registered: May-04 | As I've said before, I don't know of a pure two channel audio system with a large box that glows and emits strange images from a cathode ray tube which needs fencing off from everyone sitting between the two speakers. The difference seems obvious. |
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Gold Member Username: KeggerWarren, MICHIGAN Post Number: 2475 Registered: Dec-03 | I have one! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1895 Registered: Aug-04 | Cathode Ray Tube - those things were around back in the old days of tube amps - weren't they? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3159 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks again, all. Two Cents - thanks. I will file all this away. I had sort of decided a Prologue One with its EL34s would be OK to try, and I hear good recommendations of the EL34 sound (such as Jan's) but the dealers agreed, and I do think the Quads probably need that bit extra power. I think the Two is also more versatile in which valves/tubes you can use; it does not have to be KT88s. I will let you know. Yes, my manual says the same as yours - I mentioned this, above. I am still breaking myself in, and will go back to 8 Ohm to compare, at some stage. It sounds as if we have similar general approaches to all this. I will probably aquire the PrimaLuna phono stage board at some point, and will be interested to compare it with the one in my NAD stereo pre-amp. Jan, My interconnects are branded but I cannot remember the brand - they are not the "Designer-label" ones, but well-made, thick, screened, and good and solid. I can examine the case if you are interested. I will bear this all in mind. I have lots of cables to play around with when I get the whole system back. I bought these to get me going in the new regime. The speaker cables are from my original system. I do not know the gauge, but the cores are about right for the diameter of the holes in the PrimaLuna, Sony, NAD binding posts. They are too thick for the DIN plugs that are one option on the old KEFs (alongside banana plugs, which I prefered, anyway). The insulation is tranlucent, and the polarity is marked by the cores, which appear to be copper and silver strands. They were recommended by the same dealer from which I bought the Rega and the KEFs all those years ago. (Please do not tell me that cables "wear out"....!) BTW I found that using real component video cables instead of three-way RCAs improved picture quality on the LCD TV. This is to be expected. Yes, Italy. Of course it has different parts... Last week I was in Catalonia, which seemed just as magical. There is something about the light down on the Mediterranean coast. MR, For me, there seems to be an improved dynamic range with the Prologue Two, meaning the quietest music is still detailed and in focus, while "loud" is still loud. I am not of nervous disposition; I thrill to great waves of sound. With "loud", however, you can still sort of hear quiet things underneath; nothing seems to drown out anything else. I.e. "loud" does not mean "deafening". This again may be one of there areas where measured dynamic range does not correspond with what is actually useful to know for music. This "specs vs. sound quality" is a contentious issue, I know. (Jan rises to the bait....!) I understand your sceptical outlook, MR - it is a good thing! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1896 Registered: Aug-04 | John and other 'Tuboes' I am not sceptical of tube amps or tube related components in their ability to deliver excellent sound, but they do seem to induce some sort of obsessive behaviour [grin]. Two Cents, My previous post, I think, may have been misunderstood. Yes, sometimes there may be a difference in the sound from A/V sources vs pure music sources, but my point was more a jocular response to your comment - "There is something psychologically right about separating pure music from the AV stuff. But that's me." - being that not all of us are fortunate in having seperate listening areas for the enjoyment of both and that those of who aren't, don't suffer psychological effects (at least I don't believe so - do I?). So all I can state, is that I do not believe I can improve upon our listening experiences at present (mainly hi-res surround and even stereo via quality cd recordings) without starting another massive spend-a-thon of which the chances of that happening are less likely than a pair of diamond tweeter B&W 800 series floorstanders falling softly from the heavens onto our living room floor. And I would not be so lucky to hear a similar response to the one you received John from your lovely better half should I show interest in any more sound components in the near (or even distant) future. Sceptical - moi? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3890 Registered: May-04 | Autumn is coming in your land, is it not? Wouldn't a nice space heater be an easy sell? |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1899 Registered: Aug-04 | Actually it is the second day of our winter - and our winters are too mild and too short for such excessively expensive heating appliances. Besides all I'd need do is to turn off the little fan above the Marantz receiver. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 618 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz, That's one of the problems of online communication--misunderstandings are more common. But I think I got the kidding tone of your post. All, Some thoughts on cables and tweaks. I've always been skeptical about the value of cables. I thought I'd try some brand name cables to replace my Radio Shack cables. I tried Audioquest and Kimber cables and really didn't notice a dramative improvement in sound. (I'm not saying others don't hear a difference, but it just wasn't apparent to my ears.) What did make a difference was replacing my Belkin surge protector with a Monster Power power conditioner. The improvement in sound was dramatic with digital playback. If I were to describe the difference using hackneyed audiophile lingo, I would say the background became quieter (lower noise floor), the sound stage became deeper and wider, and the image became more focused. I was skeptical about the value of a power conditioner, but now I'm convinced it makes a big difference. The improvement in analog playback was more subtle, i.e., I'm not certain it's real or imagined. Now the large gap in sound quality between cds and lps on my system have narrowed. My next tweak will be replacing the stock EH 12ax7 tubes on the P2 with vintage Sylvania 12ax7 tubes, which I just bought on ebay. I'll post my findings once I plug and play them. Cheers! BTW has anyone heard from Larry R? If you're still with us, Larry, please drop us a line. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1900 Registered: Aug-04 | Two Cents Larry and Mer have been away quite a lot to care for sick relatives. I was concened myself and sent an email. I guess Larry will be back when things settle down for them. Re: cables A while back I changed interconnects from our version of your radioshack ones to some more (but not overly) expensive ones and didn't notice much (if any) difference, but the Kimber speaker wire was a noticable improvement over some old monster I was using. One day I'd like to lash out and buy a set of recommended interconnects but I'd be nervous of spending big money for little return. Just the Monster for 5.1 interconnects would cost me around $450AUD here and there's better stuff around than that - apparantly. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 620 Registered: Feb-04 | Rantz - Thanks for the update on Larry and Mer. Much appreciated. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3163 Registered: Dec-03 | Agreed, 2c. I was wondering, too. My Rantz - thanks for comment on the NAD T533 thread. I feel I should add some qualifications over there. Where to start would be a big problem. I remember Rick was keen to stress the value of quality CD players. How the T533 shapes up as a CD player, I really do not know. There are a number of players with tube output stages. My dealer recommended a Unison, made in Italy, and costing about the same as the PL PL2. Argh. "I am not sceptical of tube amps.. but they do seem to induce some sort of obsessive behaviour". "Obsessive"? Surely not. Good grief. Ask any wife, and she will readily confirm, I am sure, how reasonable and well-balanced is a natural and wholesome concern, in a middle-aged man, for such questions as the relative merits of 4 and 8 Ohm taps. There is a completely insane tweak described in June HiFi News. You lay a credit-card-shaped object on top of your CD player, and it removes jitter from the CD in the tray. Permanently. You then give the CD to five of your friends, and three say "Wow, what a great CD". Reviews of this type often end with the words "Go figure". I have, and I know what I think. This is not to call into question power conditioners, cables, and so on. Still less tubes. Missed all serious listening yesterday. Visited the Tower of London with Mrs A, children, and their friends. Recommended. Tried unsuccessfully to identify the loudspeakers in the jewel room. "Obsessive"? Really! I think I'd like to be a Beefeater when I grow up. They have very cool red uniforms. |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 621 Registered: Feb-04 | They make good gin |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3166 Registered: Dec-03 | That, too. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3891 Registered: May-04 | Anyone who cannot understand the value of contemplating the virutes of 4 and 8 Ohm taps has their priorities misplaced. I'll take your suggestion for the visit to the Tower of London. Have they built that in Las Vegas yet? Beefeater? Cool red uniforms? http://www.cs.umd.edu/~jfoster/Photos/London/pages/R30-25.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SWGUARD.JPG I'll leave the decision to you. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1152 Registered: Dec-03 | I vote thumbs down on the uniforms. As far as the gin goes, I'll drink to that! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3169 Registered: Dec-03 | No, not like that. That first guy is in fancy dress, surely. The real McCoy all looked serious, and had grey beards: http://www.hrp.org.uk/webcode/tower_home.asp I wouldn't want to meet one of those ravens on a dark night, either. The Swiss Guards (second link) are quite different. I wouldn't join that lot. Phew. There were also three simple players at The Tower, two male, one female, who did a terrific, satirical, and historically convincing story of Guy Fawkes with a minimum of props - mostly a hand cart and different hats. Plus a noose, and one barrel, labelled "GUNPOWDER". All in the open air, too. No amplification. They completely engaged the audience. Magical. The Globe must have been like that. I still can't decide what to do about this amp. It sounds nicer than the Sony. I cannot repeatably confirm the distortion. If I could be sure it was not me, it would have to go back. I have been playing various loud stuff for some hours, and am no longer listening to the music. I was sure I would get it with the climax of Barber's Adagio for Strings, on 1 o'clock. It didn't show up. It was sweet, sublime, penetrating. Maybe the cause is occasional feedback into the player, sitting on a glass shelf. Maybe it is the small room. It doesn't show up on radio, either. But neither does it, with CD through the Sony, which is unformly "detailed but harsh". Definitely much brighter, and seemingly missing something in the bass and lower mid-range. Have changed the taps a few more times. I should not be spending so much time on this. What a complicated business. The neighbours will soon be calling the psychiatric clinic, if not the police. Sorry to ramble, folks. This is becoming another Old Dogs. Will henceforth try to stick to the point. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3897 Registered: May-04 | "I cannot repeatably confirm the distortion." ??? "I have been playing various loud stuff for some hours, and am no longer listening to the music." ?????! Are you listening for something that will talk you out of buying the amp, John? If you are uncertain, pass on the purchase for now. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3170 Registered: Dec-03 | "Are you listening for something that will talk you out of buying the amp, John?" Well, listening for things I know I would not be able to live with. Distortion, for example. "If you are uncertain, pass on the purchase for now." Good advice, Jan. Except I would never purchase anything; I am always uncertain! I look for faults everywhere. Some deep-seated problem there, no doubt. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1153 Registered: Dec-03 | "It was sweet, sublime, penetrating." Sounds like the way tubes are suppose to sound! I knew tubes were for me, when I first got the amp and suddenly started to tap my toes and get involved in some CD tracks I never cared for in the past.................... |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1905 Registered: Aug-04 | "It was sweet, sublime, penetrating." What are we talkin' about here? |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1154 Registered: Dec-03 | LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1919 Registered: Aug-04 | John A Primaluna Two - to be or not to be? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3173 Registered: Dec-03 | My Rantz, To be. I've told them I'll a take new, complete box. The one I have is good, but minus the white gloves, and a power cable. Also I guess I'll have to run in a new one. (Two Cents; does your PL manual also have real signatures of the two PrimaLuna guys, written with ball-point pen? Ah, the vanity of audiophiles. I suppose one can't expect that from the multinationals, the poor MD would be doing nothing else). I bought a cheap and cheerful kettle cable to get the demo unit going, and fitted the plug with a 3A fuse - you can do that in UK. The salesman apologised for forgetting the cable, and said the standard one is "Fairly basic". I refuse to read reviews of audiophile mains cables in HiFi News. My question would be "Do they still work if attached to a conventional extension cable? If "yes", then what, exactly, are they doing to the 240 V 50 Hz? If "no", then how do you know their effect will be not wiped out by the wiring on the other side of the wall socket, connecting it, ultimately, with the power station?". As regards the white gloves, I am mystified. Heat-proof, and I could make a guess. But white? There we are, then. Count me in as a member of the tube amp club. I am finally qualified to post on this thread. I do not know whether there are solid-state amps, at the same price, that sound as good, but there you go. I have never heard, nor read, a recommendation of a tube amp which says it sounds as good as solid state; only the other way around. I consider my descision to "pull the trigger" as making good for my hasty decision, on amps, years ago. Not that I would have considered a tube amp then. I had a chance to buy a Quad valve amp once, but was put off by the dinosaur factor and the feeling that 20 W p.c, was probably not enough. Also by the free set of spare valves. A bit like buying car that comes with a spare gearbox, I thought. I would now consider the new Quad valve amp (50 W p.c.) but it is three to four times the price of the Prologue Two. And self-consciously "retro" in design. The PL2 is about as self-conscious as a fire hydrant. I have some time to decide where to put the PL2. At present the demo unit is on the lowest glass shelf, of three, of the stand that we bought with the TV. This give about 2" above the unit for ventilation, and it is right at the edge, for convection. But everything gets darned hot and I think 2" is not enough. As it were.... Which reminds me. "It was sweet, sublime, penetrating." What are we talkin' about here? Los Angeles Philharmonic playing Samuel Barber's "Adagio for Strings", conducted by Leonard Bernstein. On DG - one of their better ones. It is a bit like Mahler's Adagietto from Symphony number 5; about ten minutes, with big climax thingey just about four-fifths through. Thought you'd like this bit of musicological insight. Whether Barber had an Alma to get him going, I have no idea. I can also now contemplate getting back to surround, using the Sony amp and KEF speakers as surrounds. Here we have a room problem. Mrs A's opinion is that surround is nice for hearing rain falling all around you, but does not greatly enhance the cinematic experience. I think the real issue is the size of the KEFs, where to put them, and where to put the cables. For music, I will be happy with 4.0, as I said long ago, on Old Dogs. And two-channel is just fabulous, at present. Even from CD. We'll see. All the best. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3913 Registered: May-04 | So you bought the fire hydrant/steam engine refugee?! Well, if that's what you want. Congratulations! The gloves are to keep finger prints off the tube envelopes. Running at the temperatures they do, any oil from your finger would be burned onto the glass, thereby destroying the aesthethics of the devices. Why white? Because adding colorants is unaccecptable (and would add another $50 to the retail pricing). John, I am a bit suprised by you occasionally. At times your curiousity seems to be lagging far behind your stoginess. Even if you are not in the market for a mains cable, why not read what is advanced as the theory for their existence in the cable matket? The link Rick provided above has something to say about mains cables as do many other sites. Most often you will find the aftermarket mains cables trying to provide additional shielding from RFI in a very RF rich environment. But look for yourself, it won't kill you to know what is being said. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1155 Registered: Dec-03 | Hi All, In reference to the above post, let me share with you that I have made my final tweak to my stereo system. I have just put new power cables on my amp and CD player. I went with PS Audio power punch. When I first purchased my Jolida, Bill Baker from Response Audio, said one of the best tweaks I could do was upgrade the stock power cable. I won't bore you with the change in sonic quality. I urge you to experiment if interested. I asked myself the hard question recently: Could I live with my present system forever? I can say without hesitation, YES. If anyone is interested in the details of the components or complete tweaks, let me know. Cheers and happy listening! Larry, If you are checking in, please return soon. You are missed. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3921 Registered: May-04 | Rick - You must know it is impossible to live with any system forever. New music, the most important component, must be added on a regular basis. Certainly we would like to know what you have done to tweak your system and the results you've achieved. You think we read this stuff for the humor? Kegger has dropped from sight without any more information on any of his recent acquisitions. I get the image of him sitting among all of his components trying to decide what combination to try today. Kegger, are you OK? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3174 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Thank you. I ran "find" and the relevant part of the site Rick linked seems to be http://www.guerillaaudio.com/power_cable.html Life is short. I have scanned it. It starts: I've got miles and miles of power cable coming into my house. How can the last 6 feet possibly make a difference???? I get this question almost daily. And it's a great question! Let me answer it, before we go any further. The short answer is, "it does matter". Let me tell you why. Great. I am impatient to know! When electricity passes through any cable, that cable will generate a magnetic field around itself. The strength of this field depends on ... Agreed. This field (which is noise-garbage for your music) will be picked up by anything in the area. Well, anything responding to a magnetic field... With the correct geometry, this field of noise is restricted to a very small area. Our cable. called the Juice, prevents your equipment from picking up this garbage. Wait a minute: we were just talking about PRODUCING "the garbage", not picking it up. So I have to re-wire everything electrical at $100 per 1.5 meters...? And within what distance of my amp...? And what about the stuff behind the power socket...? (Question unanswered). And what control do I have over the cables used in the next room, next house, next street...? Let us assume this is a lapse of English, or logic, and the guy is actually talking about PICKING UP the electromagnetic field, not producing it in the first place. The power cable will be the least affected part of the system, as far as I can see. And hum is hum; there is a transformer and voltage stabiliser right behind where you plug the power cable into your unit. If that does not deliver DC into the circuit, there is nothing you can do. Except replace it. Again - where does this amazing cable have to be in the supply circuit? Nearest the amp? If so, why? Can I use one of these cables to feed all my hi-fi, or do I need one for each component? Will it work if separated from the amp by say 10 m of extension cable? Will it work of separated from the wall socket by say 10 m of extension cable? Is this "what is advanced as the theory for their existence in the cable matket" or is there something else? I do think in the end, a bit of common sense and "what if?" thought experiments will get us a long way. I am actually totally annoyed with this LCD TV which indeed gives off RF interference, audible on any input into either of my current amps. It is even there when it is on standby. In my view it should never have been allowed onto the market, chucking out RF like that. The only solution is to disconnect the broadcasting TV completely. To get rid of the "garbage" you have to eliminate it at source. There was supposed to be an air-raid warden in the black-out who said it would help if everyone at ground level wore sunglasses, to make things look darker. He was joking, of course. Also, to paraphrase: I've got miles and miles of power cable coming into my house. How can ADDING another 1.5 meters of any passive conductor, however well constructed, possibly make a difference???? Now, I do not disbelieve you, Rick, and yes, I do read these reviews by apparently sane (well, almost) guys in magazines. But tell me, please, before I shell out - How is it supposed work....?! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3175 Registered: Dec-03 | I have read on (above link). C'mon, guys, please help. Quote:- What can you do to make it even better? Our Juice cable is a fantastic value as is, but for those of you with ultra-demanding systems we have something extra. We offer the ultimate in power upgrades, the Wattgate Audio Grade Terminations. These connectors use every advantage possible to extract the best from the cable. Highly conductive elements incorporated into high pressure, large surface area contacts reduce overall resistance-which improves energy transfer. All the contact elements share a 3-layer plating process which ends with 24k gold plating to improve conductivity even further and also prevents corrosion. You can add the Audio Grade 330i plug and 350i IEC terminations to any Juice cable for just $160. That's way less than the MSRP! Guerrilla Style, Baby Take a look behind the power input on ANY piece of audio equipment. Or take apart your wall socket and see what is inside. Remember all these things are connected in series. "reduce overall resistance-which improves energy transfer" Honesty....! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1157 Registered: Dec-03 | John, I have always been one of those I don't really care what, how, or why it works. I have only relied on my ears over the years. I either hear it or I don't. Simple as that my friend. I leave all the other stuff to the engineers, designers, and manufacturers. This has been my basic view of audio in general. I am not just talking about wire or cable. I have heard $10,000 USD components that sounded no better than the $1000 component, and the $200 component that was a screaming bargain. I quess I am just the experimenting type. I'll try it and form my own opinion. Jan, Now you tell me! I, for one, only posted here for the humor. LOL! I will post my system in detail, perhaps tonight. No time now. Must run........ |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3926 Registered: May-04 | Rick - Well then I hope you have found as much to interest you in our posts as we have in yours. John - I didn't send you to that site for a critique of grammar, my friend. God knows the American education system is turning out people who can't tell the difference between someone producing something and someone finding something. And we don't seem to be getting any smarter. I don't want you to put $1,000 power cables on every component. I would prefer you put as good a cable as you think you require and nothing more. The various cable designers will have their schpiel about why their cables do this or that. I'm in no position to defend anyone who wishes to charge you $160 for a better plug any more than I am to sell you a power cable for $20 or $2,000. I think you can make up your own mind where the B.S. begins and the plausibility stops. I would think you would look questioningly at anyone who told you $4,000 tires would make your Ford Escort hatchback perform better. Yet if you owned a Ford GT40, you're response to the suggestion might be different. The product you are wishing to upgrade must be of sufficient quality to benefit from the upgrade. If you are only now getting around to owning that higher performance product, there may be some assumptions which will be displaced. Shall I remind you only 10 days ago you believed all amplifiers to sound the same. Here's a basic concept to consider. When all the rules concerning which cable required shielding were established, the amount of RF in the environment was rather minimal. Today we are awash in RF and there is the possibility those old rules need to be re-examined. If we are trying to minimize the pick up of RF, the cable which is at the largest source of RF should be the cable which receives the most attention. In the context of your system and what you can control this is the cable closest to all the components in your system as each will generate its own RF field. The RF field will be present to some extent around the entire system depending on the strength of the RF generated and the amount of shielding provided. This would indicate the best location for a better power cable is at the equipment itself. Yes, there is a transformer and filter capacitors, and yet there is evidence the AC ripple on a common house system can still affect the DC voltages in the component. If eliminating the AC ripple can help, why not the RFI the cable picks up and introduces to each component? This means the shielded cable will benefit those cables downstream but only if they don't introduce RFI. The shielded cable cannot filter out the RFI which has been introduced by the cable ahead of it. It can only shield against further contamination. Now we are talking power line conditioners to do that job. Each step is incremental and each step will reach a point of diminishing returns. John, I can only, as Rick has suggested, tell you to try a cable. I would guess the dealer has a loaner stock. You are under no pressure to do anything other than return the cable and get your deposit back. Shall I remind you only 10 days ago you believed all amplifiers to sound the same. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1158 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, I have truly enjoyed every word an "old dog" has ever written. Speaking of comedy, I am currently enjoying some of the zany, slapstick advice and opinions being offered on some of the speaker threads. I see you are endearing yourself to the resident clueless over there. Keep up the good work. I find it a constant source of entertainment. Truly hysterical stuff, frightening in their suggestions, but funny....... |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3928 Registered: May-04 | They seem to have the answers; don't they? They are very predictable in what they will recommend - what they own. It doesn't matter much what anyone says they might want or need, they get a recommendation that suits the one doing the recommending. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1920 Registered: Aug-04 | John - you did it, I knew it. Guys just send the cheques to my P.O. Box. Thanks. And John, keep the comedy going, it's good for us. "Now, I don't disblieve you, Rick . . . But tell me, please, before I shell out - How is it supposed work....?!" Hey, we all have to shell out just to live you know, John - and God only knows how we do that! LOL! I asked my dealer this weekend, "Apart from the 500% mark up, is there good reason for people to purchase high quality cables?" He replied, "What better reason is there than 500% mark up?" When the tittering subsided, he acknowledged that yes quality cables can make an improvement as can many tweaks. Up to the point before absurdity set in. Jan and Rick, Seems there's some on the other threads aiming to set records in reaching Gold member status. I have never read so much crap in all my life and it makes mke wonder why I spend some of it reading it in the first place. The point is it doesn't matter what anyone wants or needs - if everyone had a SR-7300 Marantz receiver (or later/higher model), a Denon Universal DVD player, a Krakatoa sub and a bevy of B&W 602's all questions of recommendations, tubes, power cables, etc would be moot. People should wake up to themselves! And oh yeah - those people who just recommend the stuff they have really pizz me off! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3930 Registered: May-04 | Me too! By the way, when are you guys going to buy McIntosh tubes? They're GRRRRREAT!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1159 Registered: Dec-03 | Ok kids, here goes. The system that only took 35 years to put together. Jolida JD102B integrated amp. Electro-Harmonix EL84 output tubes. 2 5965 NOS General Electric 5 Star Broadcast 1960's cleartops (direct 12AT7 replacements). 1 NOS 1959 Mullard Longplate 12Ax7 driver. California Audio Labs CL20 CD player. Spendor S3/5 monitors. Modified 10" stands with Mapleshade brass isolation cones (3) between bottom of stand and hardwood floor. 1 Mapleshade brass cone under front of speaker for time alignment puropses. Top plate of stand is 1/2" maple. One set of 3 Mapleshade brass iso cones under amp and CD player for vibration control. 1 iso cone placed upside down on top of CD player (Placed over the power transformer). 1 8' pair of Mapleshade Golden Helix speaker cable and jumper cables. The speakers are not bi-wired. 1 - 1/2 meter pair of Kimber PBJ copper interconnects. I tried my Transparent Audio copper and Kimber Silver Streaks, but settled on the PBJ's. I have found that tube selection will have a big influence on interconnect choices. 2 PS Audio Power Punch power cables to replace the stock cables for the amp and CD. This is the most musically satisfying system I have ever owned. I am totally convinced that to get a system that would sound significantly better, I would have to spend another $15-20k. I have spend 5x that over the years and didn'y get a combo that sounded this good. IMHO, it's not the amount spent, but putting together components that work well together. I thank all those who helped me find that combination. Do you want to come over and listen? Great! You are all welcome. Love you guys........Cheers! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1160 Registered: Dec-03 | BTW, the amp and CD sit on a Sanus Euro Foundations rack...................... |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1921 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick You win - you have the best combo. Congratulations buddy! Everyone else eat your hearts out. But, it was the Sanus Euro Foundations rack that tipped you over the edge. LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1922 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick " . . . I would have to spend another $15-20k. I have spend 5x that over the years and didn'y get a combo that sounded this good." Geez man - they must have seen you coming! LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1161 Registered: Dec-03 | Rantz, I never thought of it as winning anything. I was just searching for great sound. I don't think of it as they saw me coming........I think I just did more talking than listening. I quess you do get wiser with old age. LOL! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 622 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick, Without having listened to our system, I have no doubt of its high quality. I've heard Jolida and CAL equipment and they are definitely very musical. But the bottom line is what our ears tell you. John A., My manual did come with handwritten signatures of two principal PL guys. I take it as a sign of their commitment to the product. And an excellent one it is. It's one of those audio kits that makes you wonder why everything else is so expensive. (Jolida is another example of affordable, great-sounding gear.) I had an occasion to use the white gloves as I switched out the EH driver tubes for vintage 50's Sylvania tubes. First, the EH tubes are excellent, especially considering their modest price. I would've been happy living with them. The Sylvanias just kick it up a notch. Not a whole lot, but they enhance all the great qualities of a tube amp, giving you more of the you-are-there sound. Can't really say anything about power cords, since I've never tried experimenting with them. I suspect that they may make difference in sound. I also suspect that they are overpriced for the amount of improvement they offer. Must be a busy time for computer folks as there haven't much from Kegger and SM. I miss them. Happy listening, everyone! |
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Silver Member Username: Two_centsPost Number: 623 Registered: Feb-04 | Rick, Oops. It doesn't matter what "our" ears tell you. I meant YOUR ears. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3936 Registered: May-04 | "I quess you do get wiser with old age." See, Rantz, you do have something to look forward to. smiley face |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1923 Registered: Aug-04 | Rick - I know you know I was joking - 'cause I know my combo is the real winner LOL x 2! And if they did see you coming, I'm sure they ran like heck! [grin] Jan, I'm already way too old to get any wiser. WYSIWYG! Cheers all - I'm rewiring speakers so I can use the rears on the 'B' selector for listening in 'stereo' from the dining table (when we have guests etc) all I'll need to do is swap banana plugs. Instead of bi-wiring, I am making jumpers from decent guage wire. Also, I have to exchange the new 602's. On the rear baffle at the very top a tiny section of the vinyl (cheapskates) is lifting. My dealer talked to the disributors and they said to definately swap for another new pair as this was the first such complaint and would not comply to the high B&W standard. Good customer service from dealer and service/pr from B&W. That's the way to do it! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3939 Registered: May-04 | "I'm already way too old to get any wiser." Better than the other way around, I suppose. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1924 Registered: Aug-04 | LOL - Jan! Okay, have rewired all speakers, and now (to validate my incursion into this thread), my system has that 'tube' sound. Wow, think of the money I saved! [grin] |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3177 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, all. I imagine Kegger busy with soldering iron and oscilloscope, systematically trying every combination of everything; leaving no stone unturned. SM is back! See "Old Dogs". Two Cents:- many thanks. Yes, I have to admit I was flattered a little by having two Dutch guys' real signatures in the manual. The PL2 is really an excellent piece of kit. It has two drawbacks I can live with. One is cross-talk between input channels. I have to switch off the FM tuner on "tuner" (input 2) otherwise I can hear the radio on "CD" (input 1). I assume this is the amp; I never noticed it before. The other is that the left channel disappears sometimes when I switch radio stations - on the tuner. Very odd. This is corrected by re-setting the amplifier input, or just moving the control slightly, so that it returns to "tuner". Do you notice either of these? Rick, thank you a thousand times for your enthusiasm, and this thread! Personally, I think there is value in trying to understand how things work. When people offer phoney explanations, it does not mean the effect is not real, just that they do not understand it, either. Or else, the effect does not exist, and they are lying. Or bullshitting. You have to allow that there is a fair amount of this in HiFi. Jan:- I am still not convinced. A chain is as strong as its weakest link. I very much doubt that the production of electromagnetic fields by the power cable into the amp is ever the weakest link. Actually, you can notice the effect of changing tyres even on cheap cars. I would liken this issue more to having an aerodynamic spoiler to help a tractor cling to the road better at 5 m.p.h. Which it will do. But not much. There are usually more sensible issues to address. But I promise to try a designer power cable. I will sound out the dealer, when I return the amp. " people who can't tell the difference between someone producing something and someone finding something." Yes, exactly! It's over here, too. BTW ten months ago I thought I could probably go along with Gregory's assertion that all amps sound the same if under-driven. Ten days ago I had been reading you guys for months, and thought I should try it. So, I have now changed my mind. THANK YOU! FWIW, The programme booklet for the concert I went to last night (see Old Dogs) has ads for:- HiFi. Five: Audio Reference; KSL-Kegon; Chord; Nagra; EAR/Yoshino. Cables. Two: CrystalCable; Siltech. Power conditioners. One: ISOL-8. DAB Radio (surely they are joking?). One: PURE. Record labels. One: Warner Classics. Instruments (pianos). Two: Yamaha; Steinway. Now, there is brand positioning in action. MyRantz:- What can I say? These guys are crazy, n'est-ce pas? Remember the great "Vivid" debate?! Cables. Honestly. Next, they'll be saying we should all pay attention to the colour of the carpet. Or play vinyl LPs. Or worry about the baggage retrieval system at Heathrow. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1925 Registered: Aug-04 | Well, today I proved to myself once and for all that at least different speaker wire, speakercable vs gold jumper bars, biwiring vs not biwiring makes a difference to the sound. But then the atmospheric pressure could have changed, or I had a sudden freeing of wax in my ears or something - who knows - it's spooky stuff LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3178 Registered: Dec-03 | ...plus the resonant cavity produced by peeling-off vinyl covering. One never had this problem with wood veneer. I think the phase of the moon is also a factor to consider.... |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3179 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, There seems to be some Italian influence in PrimaLunacy. A signatory is one "Ricardo Franassovici", and "Primaluna" is apparently a small town, north of Milano, near lake Como. The manual says "see attached map" but there isn't one. 2c...? No white gloves; no map of Italy. Tut. |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1926 Registered: Aug-04 | John, Primaluna - First moon/ new moon? "One never had this problem with wood veneer." Actually, when I was first researching which speakers to buy a couple of years back, I went to a small local manufacturer and a few peeling timber veneered floorstanders he had sitting around waiting for repairs truly put me off his wares. The vinyl is the only thing I have against the 602's but I bought them for the sound not the veneer. In fact the wee small hidden area where the vinyl had lifted almost made it too embarrassing to mention. But you pay good money . . . . . . which should encourage you to chat to your dealer about the couple of problems with the PL you mentioned before committing - maybe? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3940 Registered: May-04 | http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mapshells/europe/italy/italy.htm |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3941 Registered: May-04 | Of course the moon has an affect. Hence - Prima Luna! Soon you too will be dancing nekked in the full moon light. Have Mrs. A guard the cats! |
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Gold Member Username: MyrantzThe Land Dow... Post Number: 1928 Registered: Aug-04 | Seems like the radiation from these tube amps are a bit of a worry. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1163 Registered: Dec-03 | Only when you too, start to glow in the dark! |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3945 Registered: May-04 | John - After careful consideration of my previous post, I must admit that tube amps alone do not make one want to dance nekked or clothed in the full or half moonlight. They do help, but the Chianti is the true devil. |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1164 Registered: Dec-03 | I thought it was dat demon rum mon? |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3946 Registered: May-04 | The cross talk between sources is a problem I've seen mentioned in reviews of the PrimaLuna, though not the drop out problem. Both would seem to be an issue with the selector switch chosen and the drop out is likely a bad contact finger on the switch. I assume you experienced this on the loaner amp. Should this be a problem on your new unit, it might be a curable fix with a bit of very fine grit emory paper between the contacts of the switch. (You might even ask Larry for a drop of his contact enhancer.) Though that shouldn't happen on a new amp, it isn't unheard of when discussing products built to a budget. I would inquire at the dealer whether the manufacturer has established a policy for upgrades to certain parts should the issue be addressed in the near future. Otherwise with the popularity of this amlifier worldwide I can envision someone making a new and better part available in the near future. |
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Gold Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 3947 Registered: May-04 | Yes, yes, that's it!!! Thank you, Rick. RUM - BAD!!!!! CHIANTI - GOOOOOD!!!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1165 Registered: Dec-03 | The chianti just helps the seafood fra diavlo over pasta, go down nice and easy. Mangia! |
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Gold Member Username: Rick_bNew York USA Post Number: 1167 Registered: Dec-03 | Jan, Now that summer is here, I want to put a little forced air on the tubes. Can you recommend a fan that is TRULY quiet? I have never been able to find one that is silent. Thanks. |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3180 Registered: Dec-03 | All noted, and with thanks. Some work to do next few days. Will be back. Yes, Jan, it is the loaned unit. Will take these issues up with the dealer. It still sounds wonderful. PS How can switching preset stations on the TUNER affect the AMP left channel...? |
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Gold Member Username: John_aLondonU.K. Post Number: 3181 Registered: Dec-03 | Thanks, too MR! 2c, fellow Primalunatic:- any take on issues raised? |
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