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Archive through March 06, 2005

 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1402
Registered: Aug-04
Jan,

I knew you'd deliver a well put together response to that article and I'm not qualified to argue your point - I can only go by my own experiences in trying various listening methods with what devices I have on hand - one thing though: with the hi-res surround formats (as with 5.1 DVD-Video), the lfe channel often delivers info above the 80hz crossover point, as you know, and this is also where the sub can often handle the information with better impact than the smaller drivers of the speaker imo. I can hear on some S Dan tracks and others (where the LFE instructs) the sub delivering the bass line and doing so beautifully - so no, they are not always a one note thumping machine.

As for: "I swear I can see those little Rogers speakers smile a self satisfied grin."

Well, perhaps you should take yourself to the shrink or . . .

at least cut back to about five Chevas Regals while talking to those little fellas :-)

And I agree with Rick, tubes are good, but I still prefer my beer in a good old glass.

Anyway - I'm off to the mountains for a picnic - later!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Not to prolong the matter, but I believe it was Kegger who originally made the remark about one note bass over on Old Dogs. I do tend to agree for the most part. The problem is not with what lies above the 50HZ or so bottom end of many mini monitors. It is usually the stuff that's hard to do well for most any speaker. Down beneath 35Hz.
I've generally found the bass response above 45Hz more to my liking in small speakers due to the inherently rigid cabinets vs. the inevitable flex of larger panels. The resonance of most small speaker boxes is pushed up into a higher frequency (which can have its own problems), where the larger panels tend to resonate closer to the frequency that is exciting them. The bass notes often hang on too long in most large boxes for my taste, or don't propogate properly into the room once really deep bass notes come along. The smaller driver also delivers more crisply articulated signals than I find in most 12" woofers. There are exceptions, but to bend the rules of physics which determine these things gets expensive. So down to about 45-55 HZ most small driver, small cabinet speakers do just fine for me. The doesn't mean I didn't enjoy putting Clapton on the McIntosh and Klipschorns occasionally. It just isn't what I chose to own at home.
Even with my HT system, I let the monitors do a large portion of the bass line. The crossover on my SACD player and the receiver are set at 40Hz. The satellites roll off almost entirely on their own at that point. Bringing in the subwoofer any higher than that and I tend to hear problems.
Bass has always been more one note than anything else in too many speakers to my ear. Quantity often substituting for quality. My tastes in speakers, and particularly what I like in the way of bass response, is not what I found most of my clients prefering. I'd rather give up a bit of extension, and certainly quantity, to have what I consider a cohesive, natural fall off of a smaller driver. But that's just my taste. I blame it mostly on hearing Quads. They have bass response like no other speaker I've ever heard. Not a lot, but just enough, and everything goes together so well. Unfortunately, I have neither the budget nor the room for Quads.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

The Chivas is not the problem for me, the problem is when the speakers have had one too many.


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2200
Registered: Dec-03
Yes the one note bass thing was mine.

I believe a larger driver 10" or bigger or best yet muliple smaller ones
coming from the main speakers down to about 45hz "sounds" the best as far
as supllying ample bass that is instruement dicernable with a descent volume.
Then have a sub do the rest. Most but not all subs in my opinnion give off a one
note sound that doesn't sound like an instruement.
But for the propper application "bass extension lower then the mains produce" is fine. "for me"

I believe it takes a good amp/well made and suitable cabinet along with
great drivers to make a sub "musical". To me front firing is the only way to go
and if you have quality amps and the right cabinet a sub can do more than one
note bass but it will cost you. Even as Jan has mentioned in the past the free
air design with megawatts and very expensive drivers work incredable to.

The lower the bass you ask from your sub the less you hear an instrument, just bass
the higher the frequency you ask from your sub the more you hear it and the better
quality/sinergy comes into play!

So my oppinion is if you have a single bass driver speaker with a driver that
is 8" or less I believe even an average sub is needed to help that speaker.
But a better sub may be needed for those who don't care for the one note bass.

If you have speakers with more than one bass driver or a driver that is 10"
or larger the inexpensive sub works fine because the one note bass it's providing
is only doing that, basicly "producing one note lower than the mains" so you don't
notice it because the mains are allready
at the point where the sub does
it's thing with the same authority.

The thing that many don't like and notice is a smaller speaker that doesn't
really push the bass at the lower registers then you add an inadaquite sub that
is not musical and delivers the one note bass is much easier to hear then on a
larger speaker so it takes a better sub for some people to mate to there smaller
driver speakers. In other words it's much easier to "hear" the sub on a smaller
set of speakers and some don't like that. But they like quick "accurate" bass
they get from smaller drivers. So it can get really expensive to have a sub do
it "correct" or there is a comprimize that some are and aren't going to live with!


That about sums up subs!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Yeah, I agree with that.

I think.


 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2798
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

Many thanks for the link
http://www.vacuumtubes.net/How_Vacuum_Tubes_Work.htm

All,

"There are only a handful of instruments that actually produce information beneath 50Hz and the use of those instrument's lowest registers is rather uncommon"

That is correct, and, even when the lower registers are used, you hear very little of the funadamental, and the first harmonic is of course the octave so that is twice the frquency of the fundmental. Only in really really large rooms (concert halls) do you actually get the fundamental on the lowest string of e.g. a double bass, which if I recall is 32 Hz, but even then most of what you hear starts at 64 Hz and that is the open bottom string. An electric guitar's lowest string, E, unfretted, is 44 Hz, and the same applies; most of what you hear starts at 88 Hz. The active sub comes into its own with "Low Frequency Effects".

Jan, I think one reason for the return of the bass port is to get speakers as small as possible. The same is true of the active sub; localise all the heavy-duty bass in one box and put it under a coffee table or similar. This has something to do with WAF or similar, I am told: with 5.1 etc many Ws. just hate having conspicuous boxes or panels around the place. For some reason. Probably the same ones who just love huge telescreens. I do not have this problem, fortunately. Quite on the contrary. My dear W. seems massively tolerant, even encouraging, in audio madness.

Rick,

Are you OK....? At a bit of a loss for words...? Anything to do with the new amp....?
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2201
Registered: Dec-03
John most of what I listen to is rock music and what comes out of the sub
that doesn't come out of conventional drivers very well is kick/bass drum "maybe double bass"
and the bass guitars when there really jammin. Also just plain low tones of
combined instruement sounds making a bass tone!

Electric gutairs be them bass or standard are generally run through a
processor of some sort and with those a lot of subharmoics can and do get generated.

So while maybe a sub is a mute point for what you listen to, there is a lot
of low bass info in what I listen to and without a sub it's a night and
day difference. There is so much more info that is lost without one for my music. FOR ME!

I can listen without the sub then turn it on and realize what I'm missing.

So again it's both a matter of taste and physical properties that if
one reads all of the info posted hear while understanding it, should lead you to that.

It's fine if "you" don't want to use a sub or like one but many of us do
with great results and they actually reproduce music.

RANTZ'S comment "Unless you have full range speakers - you need the sub - period"

Was a little over zellas and should have read, "for him".
 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1403
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger

Thanks, yes I was a little over zealous, maybe my comment should have read:

"Unless you have full range speakers - you need the sub - period - at least that is my opinion."

All.

I appreciate the comments and points of view from other old dogs here but these are my floppy old ears that give me this information. I have to trust them first.

We listen to jazz, blues and some rock mainly and then a mixture of all I guess at times. And for this music I have to agree with Kegger.



 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2799
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger, My Rantz,

Thanks and yes, I think we coming from different directions and can agree to disagree, as we have before. I am going to try some rock when I get my 5.1 back, or I visit, maybe around Easter. Yes, bass drums, kettle drums and so on go lower than that. Organ freaks also like deep bass. I think a concert grand piano has the lowest note at 25 Hz and a full-sized organ can go to 16 Hz. But if you look at the length of those pipes, I think 16 Hz is 64 ft., it sort of illustrates Jan's point. Even if you could get one of those into you listening room (!) you would never really hear it, just some harmonic or standing wave of that, and what you would be hearing would really be the resonance of your room; the sound would be completely different in different rooms, it would be the room itself making the sound. You only really hear the low notes on an organ on a huge space like a concert hall or a cathedral. It is awesome, alright, but cannot be reproduced in most people's homes, and that is just physics, not anything to do with speakers.

I remember listening to the Mercury Living Presence 1812 overture on the Corellis (50 Hz) and was completely "Blown away" by the cannon - a real one - on that recording. I am not kidding, it shook the entire house.

I am settled on a new pair of speakers which are overkill for our current small apartment. -3 dB at 40 Hz. About 86 dB/W at 1 m. Can post more on that but this is off-topic, I shall maybe go back to Old Dogs.

BTW Our current small listening room is 11' x 15.5' x 7.5'. Not a lot of scope, there. If I get it right, this room could just about accommodate a fundamental of 62 Hz. I think My Rantz and Kegger have much bigger rooms, and this is an important consideration.

Visited a HiFi shop yesterday which has all the exotic gear (from UK point of view) people have been writing about here; I had never even seen half of it "in the flesh". Martin Logans, Magnepan, a wide range of McIntosh amps and speakers. Amazing.

I enquired about valve/tube amps and the word they use is "fluid" - "more like real music". They seem to have a huge range; Quad 22, Pathos, McI., etc. I did not enquire about Jolida. For "Entry level"' the guy pointed to a Prologue One. It looked nice. Will try one, one day. There are also six-channel tube amps alright, such as Copland; one can certainly get surround tubes. I pretended not to be interested in the price. I was reminded of the legendary Bentley dealership, I think, which had the policy of telling customers "if you have to ask the price, then you can't afford it". Argh.

Rick, I am getting concerned..... RIck?
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 819
Registered: Dec-03
John,

Thank you for your concern. LOL!

All is well in TUBEVILLE, USA.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2801
Registered: Dec-03
Excellent, Rick. A glowing recommendation, if ever I read one.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 466
Registered: Feb-04
Well, I've visited Tubesville, USA, but haven't bought any real estate there yet. I plan on it though.

After auditioning tube gear, the biggest benefit I hear is the fullness and three-dimensionality of the music. The best tube gear I've heard expands the depth of the soundstage, which could add to the impression of the three-dimensional presence of musicians. SS can be detailed but can sound slightly lean compared to good tube equipment. I've also heard tube equipment that sound like ss gear, detailed and lean. I'm not sure of the point of that. So, it's important which lot one chooses in Tubesville. There is varying quality there.

As far as the subwoofer debate, I fall on the side of eschewing it if possible for music. Why make the music system more complicated than necessary? That's why I chose speakers that can go down to 35Hz, which is sufficient for the music I listen to. I don't listen to a lot of organ music or electronica or rap music where deep bass is an essential part of the music. Unless you get mini-monitors and listen to this type of music, then a subwoofer probably isn't necessary. If that's the case then you should rethink getting mini-monitors. Good monitors can get down close to 40Hz these days. But I do love the sub for watching movies with great sound mixes.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2804
Registered: Dec-03
I agree, 2c. Tubesville seems to be a mixed area, and different people have different ideas on which is the right side of the tracks.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

You may want to revisit the Old Dog's kennel. Kegger and I had this discussion back when he was getting interested in tubes. It was about old school vs. new school tube sound. I would say somewhere around the first of July.


 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 820
Registered: Dec-03
.........YEP..............

And don't be afraid to take notes, mental or otherwise. I did, and I do believe it paid off.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 823
Registered: Dec-03
I spent most of Sunday listening to music. I can see what Jan meant when we said tubes don't like to be turned off. The longer the amp was on, the better it sounded. After four to five hours the sound was holographic.
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2807
Registered: Dec-03
Thinking about subs and the rooms they are in, it seems to me the reason you hear the bass on a car system from outside the car, even with its windows closed, is much the same; the car itself is the resonator: what you hear, both inside and out, is the car, not the music. Same with houses. Some near our old place seemed to have heavy machinery operating within, from time to time. When you got close, you realized it was the bass line of something. I remember MR had neighbours like that.

Discussion of organ pipes etc does not qualify in Rick's sense of "tube talk". Sorry, Rick. Keep on tubing. I shall witter away on Old Dogs, instead.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

I found the best way to have the Macs at their best was to keep them running constantly. When they were switched off and allowed to cool completely, there were improvements in the sound for two days. The Macs have very large, heavy transformers that most tube amps don't share and there is a lot of iron to heat. (This is a problem to consider with the Quads also, John.) Allowing the Macs to run constantly is not as much of a problem as some tube amps due to their low idle voltage, the amps idle rather cool. A tube amp like the ST70, which runs hotter all the time, will need tubes replaced on a regular basis if you let it run constantly.

I've not seen a good way around this problem that doesn't either limit current or introduce noise. Since I have the 6200 for day to day listening, I've thought of trying a good quality dimmer, with RFI and EMI filtration, in the AC line with a heavy switch to quickly go from dimmer to straight AC. Even with the soft start circuit in the Macs, tubes do not like the on/off cycle. The filaments will heat and cool repeatedly until they get brittle and react to the incomming voltage just as a light bulb will. The more on/off cycles, the shorter the life of the tube. This is also true of transistors, though the solid state device benefits from not having 450 volts placed on its cathode.



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 824
Registered: Dec-03
Jolida states in their manual that they do not recommend keeping the amp on 24/7, but don't go on to say why. I have run the amp for 8-10 hour sessions, and it does not run very hot, in my opinion.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2203
Registered: Dec-03
Hey jan what about running a tube amp from a variac and when not in use
turn the variac down, also if so what would you run it at?

___________________________________

What tubes are you running in the audible illusions preamp?

6DJ8 / 7308 / 6922 and what brand?
do you have a preference? if you could get any!

I recently picked up some nos russian 6922's with a vsi label and gold pins
that sound awsome but I'm not sure what they are yet!

Anyways just curious your thoughts.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

A guess at the instruction would be it is to take some liability off Jolida. Same as a warning to not use your electric hedge clippers while in the shower. Since the Macs often found their way into laboratories, there was no warning on their on cylce. There were no warnings on cigarettes back in 1962 either.



I'm running Seimens ECC88 & E88CC gold pins. They were the best of the NOS tubes sent to me almost 15 years ago when there was still a reasonable amount of NOS available. The one set of tubes that had the best sound and were the quietest are very microphonic compared to evrything else I had heard. They required a lot of work and wouldn't do well if the speakers had lots of bass and the volume was louder than normal. With the Spica's that wasn't much of a problem.
I believe the AI came with Russian tubes that were relabeled. AI was very mindful of having enough spares to go around for repairs and replacement. They have about 100 hours use and are sitting in a box for the day I finally need tubes and don't want to spend any extra cash. They're decent by all standards, better that the RAM and Groove tubes of the same time. They're just not the Seimens. What I would buy today would probably be the same if available. The 6DJ8 being an unusual tube in audio, it's hard to say.



 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 826
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger-Jan,

Do you have any experience with EI brand tubes? I am going to swap the Electro-Harmonix for the EI Elite Gold Pins this weekend.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2206
Registered: Dec-03
Rick I had posted this to a response of one of your earlier posts:

"I like the EI tubes as well , they were very well rounded on all the ones
I've used. But I get a bigger improvement/change on the preamp or small signal
input tubes then I do on the output tubes. "

Anyways I find EI to be one of the better tube manufacturers making tubes today.
Having said that, still not nos standards though!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 827
Registered: Dec-03
Sorry Kegger, I quess I'm at that senior moment age where I start to repeat myself. THE HORROR!

When I ordered the EI's, I ordered the matching preamp and driver tubes as well. I remember you saying they made a difference. I'll let you all know how they work out. Thanks again.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2207
Registered: Dec-03
I'm with yu on the memory thing rick!

Unfortunitly I can't blame mine on old age as I've allways had trouble in that area! lol!

I'm sure you'll have fun tube rollin and I hope the sonics go your way!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2209
Registered: Dec-03
Jan in your oppinion if anyone can answer it for that matter.

maybe as close as as you can please!

What tube be it preamp/input/output, brand/type gives the most "tube sound" like
rich harmonics maybe even exaggerated if you will?

What other things contribute to the luchessness and harmonic tones?
My guess resistors/caps/transformers but is there a tube type known for this?

You know me I like to experiment and evaluate, I'd like to see/hear the extreme!

And the extreme would be what amp with what tubes if at all possable?

Thanks in advance!

 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

First, the question about running my amps off a Variac to cut back the voltage at idle. When I duscussed this idea with the technicians I was working with at the time, the general feeling was it is not a good idea. The expense of a very good Variac was the main reason. The power transformer on the Mac is quite large by comparison to most tube amps. Overall the 240 weighs about twice as much as the ST70 for a gain of only five watts. Almost all of the weight is in the three transformers. The idea of running a small power transformer in the affordable Variacs in parallel with the large power transformer of the Mac didn't seem like a good idea in terms of performance. Better to just plug the 240's into a wall outlet so they had nothing in front of their p.t. to impede current flow. Not that current is a big deal with a tube amp, but the best guess was the Variac transformer should be at least three to four times the size of the transformer in the Mac to reduce output impedance on the Variac side enough to be beneficial. That put the cost rather high to find a Variac that would be acceptable. (The used market on the internet may have helped the pricing now.) At the time I discussed this, the cost of the Variac would not have saved me any money over the cost of replacing tubes in the Mac for many, many years. (The cost of tubes on the internet may have changed this also. Tubes are almost twice to three times the price for basic tubes than when I first got the Macs.) Since I've got the two amps that I run as monoblocks, the need for two Variacs made the deal even less attractive. On a smaller stereo amp, the Variac might be a consideration. In terms of voltage at idle, what you're trying to do is keep the tube's parts from heating and cooling. The AI pre amp has a standby mode that keeps the filaments above a soft glow; just enough voltage and current to keep the temp up so that cooling never really happens. That, along with bringing the voltage up slowly, would probably be sufficient to extend the life of the tube. It is that intial burst of heat that is bad for the tube. It's the idea that a lamp goes out when you flip the switch, not while you're reading the paper. I seem to remember a number that indicated a 15-25% reduction in temperature will increase tube life by 2-3 times. Lower temps are less beneficial overall. Since the Macs run cool at idle and have a soft start circuit, they already have most of the benefits of extending the tube's life. Leaving the Macs running 24/7 has resulted in tube replacement every four to five years when I'm being picky about the sound. Usually a single tube goes out, and replacing the entire set to keep things matched is the better choice. Much depends on the tube also. The Sovtek tubes I purchased were in need of replacement much sooner than most of the other tubes I've used. Their allowable plate voltage was less generous than the Sylvania NOS and clones that I've run. When I first bought the Macs, the owners both still had original Mac tubes that were over ten years old. The periodical on/off cycle the amps experienced with their original owners had taken its toll more on the twenty year old power supply caps.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

To describe a tube type as "tubey" is a difficult task. Obviously you can place a NOS tube in an updated circuit and not get old school tube sound. Some tubes are built around the model of old school designs. There are numerous tubes that claim the "sweetness" of this or that RCA, Slyvania or Mullard tube. My experience has been those tubes have a traditional sound because so many new tube designs go away from that idea and don't give all the richness of the old school tubes. That's why the NOS tubes are valuable. To find a particular tube in a given tube type, I would have to direct you to some of the tube sites that write about the sound of the various tube brands. When I bought this last set of Svetlana 6L6's, they were sold as being clones of the original Sylvania designs from the '60's. As you've said, a 6550 is generally less tubelike than most EL34's. But I'd have to say tube sound is much more dependent upon the circuit it is placed in and the transformers it works into. Going from a paper in oil cap to a poly cap is a fairly obvious example of what passive parts will do to the sound. A triode amp will be more tubelike if what you want is the immediacy of the tube sound. There a 2A3 is most often referred to as the best example of what a triode can sound like. A touch of sweetness with large dose of immediacy and harmonic richness. The simple circuits of a triode amp are what tubes are all about for most tube listeners, even if their not using triodes. As we've discussed an SET may not be for everyone. The simplicity of tubes with the power of push pull is still a hard combination to beat. With pre amp tubes I have to admit my experience is mostly with the standard tubes used in pre amps. 6DJ8's, 12AX7's and the like. I can't really tell you what tube is the most "tubey" from that lot. I can tell you the 12AX7 in a Marantz 7C or Conrad Johnson PV-5 do not give the same sound as they do in any other pre amp I've heard. If you want really "tubey" sound, you might look at some of the older gear from the '50's. There's not much around and it's either fairly high priced or not that great. The old mono amp you picked up from the repair shop this summer would be an obvious example of what tubes sounded like for most people in the '50's. By the '60's tube design had hit its heyday and was substantially better than most of what came before.


 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 838
Registered: Dec-03
Hi All,

I did my first tube rolling this weekend, and thought I would post some observations. I swapped out both the power and preamp Electro-Harmonix tubes for a complete set of Ei Elite Gold Pins. Although the tubes are far from opening up, there is a very noticable difference in sound character.
The EH have a much smoother and fuller bottom end and a more laid back, or as it has been said by others, a darker sounding mid-range. The Ei's on the other hand have a much sweeter and forward mid range, with a very open breathing high end. The bottom however is not as defined and full as the EH. I can't say which I like better at this point. I think in all fairness, I'll have to give the Ei's a week or so as I did for the EH's.

I have found this very interesting so far, and I can see down the road, that the key will be to find the right combo of output and preamp tubes to your taste.

A quick word to the critics who say all this tube stuff amounts to tone controls; Is tube rolling any different than matching a warm amp or receiver to bright speakers, or vice versa?

I welcome any/all comments.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

I think you'll find the pre amp tubes you prefer can exert a strong influence on the overall sound of the amp as a whole.


 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

It might be interesting to separate the pre amp & power amp for a bit of listening to see where differences are most evident. Does the amp have pre out/main in?



 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2216
Registered: Dec-03
Rick!

"I have found this very interesting so far, and I can see down the road, that the key will be to find the right combo of output and preamp tubes to your taste.

A quick word to the critics who say all this tube stuff amounts to tone controls; Is tube rolling any different than matching a warm amp or receiver to bright speakers, or vice versa?"


Yes rick you hit my observations head on.
You can have your own taste and match your tubes to your components.

Just think if you had solid state and they did not match your components
and or your liking, your either stuck with it or sell it.
Where with tubes you can dial it right in!

THAT'S ALLMOST MY FAVORITE PART ABOUT TUBES.

I've got tubes in my cd buffer deal , in my preamp and my amp. So with a few
different tubes for each unit I can pretty much match any speaker or other component
to my system and have it suit my needs and wants!

I LOVE IT! NOW TO MENTION THE SOUND!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 839
Registered: Dec-03
Jan,

I don't have the flexibility to seperate the amp from the preamp. But I can already hear that the preamp tubes may have an even bigger sonic effect on the overall sound than the output tubes. This is great stuff.

Kegger,

Thanks! It's nice to know I'm on my way to being a tubeophile. LOL!
 

Unregistered guest
I'm hoping this will make sense to someone who knows about this stuff. I stumbled onto this website doing some research for my very ill, hopefully not fatally ill, TV.

I have a toshiba 24af42. Its just your standard flat screen digital tv. nothing fancy but a great tv - sharp picture, no problems since we've had it (a couple of years now). Anyway, my husband walked over to it, just touched the side and static electricity blew it. At first nothing would turn on. He unplugged it for a while, plugged it back in again and the power light does come on, but no picture - no sound. Ever hear of something like this. We've had it plugged into a surge protector since we've had it. Aren't these things grounded inside?

I'd appreciate any knowledge/feedback. Thanks so much.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

TV's are grounded through the AC line. There is merely a grounding point inside the TV which is connected to the AC ground. I would guess you have experienced a coming together of coincidences that would make it appear the static charge blew out the TV's circuits. There isn't much to do except take it to a repair shop. TV's have dangerously high voltages across many points in their circuitry and tube. If you are not a trained technician, you should not attempt to remove the cover.



 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Anything going on in TubeLand today?




 

New member
Username: Vicky

Paso robels, Ca USA

Post Number: 3
Registered: Feb-05
what!? do u like full house?
 

New member
Username: Vicky

Paso robels, Ca USA

Post Number: 4
Registered: Feb-05
i uv full house!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 854
Registered: Dec-03
I have the day off, and think I'm going to listen to some music, and hang out here. I'll try to keep quiet and stay out of trouble for a while....
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Rick, shouldn't you be cleaning the cave?


 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 855
Registered: Dec-03
Yes, yes, you're right. A mans work is never done. LOL! I'll clean first, then listen. If the meteor strikes while I'm cleaning, I gonna be pissed...........
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2222
Registered: Dec-03
Well I'm still going crazy with gathering amps! Sheez the madness!

I picked up an antique sound labs av20 mono block for my center channel.
Brand new for $150 plus $40 shipping. 20 watt amp with 2 6l6/5881's output
tubes and a 12at7 driver tube with manual bias setting. Seems pretty nice.

Then I won an auction for a mono block (H-AO-39) from a Hammond A100 organ.
Runs 2 el84's and a 12ax7 driver tube, cheap.

Then by next week wednesday I may be the owner of an antique sound labs 300b amp
with a 300b per side and 4 12au7 driver tubes for a wopping 8watts a channel.

The guy is local and we should be able to work a trade of appox $500 value and
$500 cash. This guy seems pretty cool , he suposably knows the guys who
started and run audiogon. "maybe not a bad contact" He's a big vinyl sellar!

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?ampstube&1111622703
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2223
Registered: Dec-03
I've been doing a lot of testing and reading and researching.

On the 12a based tubes, yu know 12at7,12ax7,12au7.
And have found some some very intrigueing info.
As you know Jan there basically the same tube with different gains.

12ax7 mu gain factor of 100
12at7 mu gain factor of 60
12au7 mu gain factor of 20

Well there are many more where those come from.
The 12av7 is basically the same also with an mu of 40 so right in between a
12at7 and 12au7 and generally can be sustituted without any issues.

seems going down in gain is allmost allways possable while going up is
generaly not a problem but can be if went to far or curcuit/parts are close to tolerence!

Then you have all kinds of sustitute tubes in that range.

6414 mu 43
5965 mu 48
6829 mu 47
7062 mu 48
e180cc mu 48

then the

12ay7 mu 45
5751 mu 70
6211 mu 30

So you can cover whatever range you need/want and I'm sure theres many many more!

Well all this comes about as I've gotten quite a few of these tubes collected
and I like to tinker/see what happens. Well you sure can change the sound with
these babies and what I find realy interesting is when you go down in gain you
not only loose some power output but the noise drops also not to mention sound change!

Well as some may know when you run speakers with a higher efficency they also
tend to amplify the amplifier noise easier then speakers of less efficeny. you
can get some irritating noise. What I've been doing lately becausae I run very
efficent speakers and don't need the extra power is run driver tubes of less gain
which drops output power but also the amps produce much much less noise if at all!

With a descent spectrum of these tubes you can dial any speaker into your system.

And the more places you have tubes the more tweaking you can do!

With my setup I run the z-man tube buffer which uses one tube and you change
that the whole system changes, along with my preamp which uses 4 tubes you
can change the whole system.

I run out of my preamp to 3 seperate amps 2 solid state's doing bass
and sub then a tube doing midbass on up to my klipsch speakers. so I can
change the tubes in my amp to change just the klipsch and not the rest.

So I've been tweaking the z-man and preamp for best bass response!
"without severely deteriating my midbass on up"
Then tweaking the amps tubes for the klipsch. both solid state amps running bass
have adjustable outputs so I can dial them in.
It can be a lot of work but it's also very very flexable.

________________________________________

Here's a couple of quotes from websites:

One simple tweak that is favored by tube amp users is to plug in a pre-amp tube with a slightly different gain factor. (Important: this only works for tubes that are pinout and plate voltage compatible, such as the types listed)


The gain factor of a tube simply measures how much it amplifies the input signal. For example, the common 12AX7 type has a gain factor of 100, while a 5751 (which is often used in place of a 12AX7) has a gain factor of 70. This means that if you plug a 5751 into a socket that expects a 12AX7, the pre-amp will have about 30% less gain. Not only will this make the amp quieter, but it can also alter the sound by making the power section work harder when you turn it up. Many guitar amp users (particularly harmonica players) like to reduce the gain to get a different sound or calm the amp down to prevent feedback.

In some cases, you can also go the other way and increase the gain factor. It is generally more risky to increase the gain factor rather than decrease it as the added gain may be too much for the rest of the amplifier circuit. An example of an acceptable up-swap can be found in tube amps that use a 12AT7 (with a gain factor of 60) as a "input driver" tube. You can sub in a 5751 to increase the gain by just a touch.

The tubes we list here also have several alternate names, which we list below. Note that the alternates do not have significantly different gain factors, they are simply a different name for the same thing.
12AX7 - ECC83, 7025, ECC803, E83CC, 6681
12AT7 - ECC81, 6201, 6679
12AY7 - 6072
12AV7 - 5965
12AU7 - ECC82, 5963, 5814, 6189

Before you discover the new possibilities in your amp, let us give a disclaimer. Your amp was originally designed for a certain type, and although tube amps are often forgiving, it may not have a tone that you like with a different tube type. For instance, changing the tube type doesn't only change the gain factor; there are other variables as well and your amp may have a circuit that is more particular than others. As a general rule, the substitutions we describe here should work well but there are exceptions and we don't warranty any problems that result from trying mismatched tube types. For the best results, find other people on the net who have experience swapping tubes with the amp you use.

_______________________________________________


So with some educated guesses I've been getting some awsome results.

The other things that "can" happen when you change these tubes gain factor
in your equipment is by goiung down in gain the sound may get more mellow to help
out that speaker or system that's a little to sharp. and by going up in gain
"may" get the oppisite reaction to help out a dull system!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 857
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

You are a wildman. More tube amps? I have been doing more tube rolling, and the best combo so far is the EHEL84's with the EH12AT7X's and the Ei 12AX7. Sounding very liquid at the moment. I can see why this could be very addicting.

My biggest fear is I'm going to hear a pair of Macs or Lamms or something like that down the road. I think I'll just stay home instead. Let me know your impressions of the EL84 tube when you get the amp.

Stay well!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2224
Registered: Dec-03
Rick!

"I can see why this could be very addicting."

Yes agreed but I love the flexability! Don't you?


"My biggest fear is I'm going to hear a pair of Macs or Lamms or something like that down the road"

I don't think it's just a matter of brand of the amp,
as many of the good amps have the same curcuitry.

It's the quality of the parts used or reused/rebuilt.

As long as you've got good iron then it's the curcuitry along with the parts used.
Of course tube quality and type with the tone you like that fits your system will
make a difference to!

While I'm sure mac and lamm use quality iron so do many of the amps out there!
That mono I found earlier last year has acrosound iron on it and people go nuts for just
the transformers on ebay!

My guess would be if you heard something that made you just say "yah I want that"
it would be a certain tube tybe in a certain curcuit on a quality built unit.

That's my reason for collecting all these amps!
I don't want to have to take someones word for it as to how they sound/perform.

So I'm trying to get a little of as many as I can and ofcourse ask oppinions.

I allmost bought a beard amp that sometimes I wish I would of. NEED MORE MONEY!
It was el84 based with 6 el84's a side! and 2 12at7's driver tubes a side.
Put out 35 a channel and I think I'll like the el84 tube sound, just a feeling.

But now I've tried so many of the usual suspects I NEED to hear the true set "magic".
And I'll have tried just about as many designs and types as one can in the short
period of time I've been doing this. I want to get as many under my belt as quickly
as I can to get the evaluating period somewhat finished "although never truly done"
and settle on what I want like Jan has.

Wish people like us lived in the same neighborhood so we could swap some
gear for periods of time to listen too. That would be killer! I'd love to hear
your amp and then your spendors then Jans macs along with his preamp if he'd let
them go out the door that is "lol" and whatever else he's got hiding! Just to go
listen to these setups on a regular basis would be enough to form a pretty good oppinion.

I use to go over a friends house and listen to his gear but now I've passed him up.
But he's in the middle of redoing his basement and setup to where when he's done
I'll want be over there again. And yes he will be going tube on the front three of his
speakers! He runs Aerial's the big 10t's up front with matching center and then some
other Aerial rears/surrounds. I love his speakers but they "NEED" power there like
85db and very very power hungry. He's looking at a pair of rouge 150 mono blocks
for the fronts and a rogue 88 for his center! Then he'll run solid state for the rest.
Not sure what prepro yet but he's looking at anthem's new one. Then maybe a 2
channel tube preamp with surround passthrough simular to what I got.

Well rick hope your listening went great today!

 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 478
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger, that's a lot of tubular info you've posted. Thanks. If your friend is looking at Rogue 150s, he may also want to check out the ASL Hurricanes. I've listened to the Hurricanes driving power-hungry electrostats with ease. They sounded very neutral, whereas the Rogues sounded more tubey (warm). It comes down to taste I suppose. I'm entering your wide world of tubes by way of the lil primaluna prologue two. Delivery is expected tomorrow. More later.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 863
Registered: Dec-03
2C,
Congrats on the new amp and welcome to the world of tubes. I wish you many hours of listening pleasure. Please give us your evaluation of the Prologue Two, in due time. Will look forward to it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2227
Registered: Dec-03
Two Cents : The ASL Hurricanes are definatly impressive and I wouldn't mind
seeing my friend get a pair of those but he's got a price point in mind and
the used price of the rogue 150's is a lot more attractive one must admit!

Good to see more getting into the tubeness. I hope yours turns out nice.
Saw a primaluna prologue "1" I believe on audiogon a while back in my area.
They've gotten pretty good press , hope they live up to it for you and I believe
John A would be interested in your findings also, make sure you let us know!
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 479
Registered: Feb-04
Kegger and Rick--Thanks. I'll post my impressions of the PL2 after I spend some time with it. Kegger, it's hard to beat the Rogues for price/performance. I just thought the Hurricanes sounded amazing, but I fully understand the price side of the p/p ratio.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2230
Registered: Dec-03
------------------ "Pleasing Harmonics" --------------

Humans have become accustomed with various types of sounds. Some we find pleasing, and some appear harsh and un-natural. This is because of harmonics. A simple explanation of harmonics is when a guitar sounds different from a piano. Both may have a few strings of the same length, but when hit, make completely different sounds. The shape, construction and materials of the object add different resonances and reflections which give it a specific sound. Electronics work the same way.

Allow me to quote from Dave Gumienny's articles on the Phaze Audio web page.

Technically, and Musically Speaking

Music consists of musical tones or notes. A scale in its basic form has eight tones. The sound of an instrument consists of much more than single notes. Each note is a complex collection of a fundamental, overtones and harmonics. Let's break this down a little further. The basic sound characteristic of an instrument is determined by the strength of the first few harmonics. Each of the lower harmonics produces its own characteristic effect when it is dominant or it can modify the effect of another dominant harmonic if it is loud enough. In the simplest classification, the lower harmonics are divided into two groups. The odd harmonics (third and fifth) produce a "stopped" or "covered" sound. The even harmonics (second, fourth, and sixth) produce "choral" or "singing" sounds.

It is generally accepted that tubes are musically superior audio devices because they produce a higher portion of even rather than odd-ordered harmonics. Transistors, on the other hand, tend to emphasize the odd-ordered harmonics. Even-ordered harmonics are musically related to a given frequency in terms of octaves, while odd-ordered harmonics are dissonant. A higher proportion of even-ordered harmonics more closely resemble the natural harmonies in music. A signal passing through a tube will be automatically altered in such a way as to be in sympathy with the normal characteristics of music. Thus, tube amplifiers are commonly called "musical" or "warm" sounding.

The second and third harmonics are the most important. Musically the second is an octave above the fundamental and is almost inaudible; yet it adds body to the sound, making it fuller. The third is termed a musical twelfth. It produces a sound many musicians refer to as "blanketed". Instead of making the tone fuller, a strong third actually makes the tone softer. Adding a fifth to a strong third gives the sound a metallic quality that gets annoying as the music gets louder. A strong second with a strong third tends to open up the "covered" effect. Adding the fourth and the fifth to this gives the sound a more "open" quality.

Higher harmonics, above the seventh, give the tone "edge" or "bite". Therefore too much edge can produce a raspy, slightly out-of-tune quality. Since the ear is very sensitive to the edge harmonics, controlling their volume is very important.

The basic cause of the difference in tube and transistor sound is the weighing of harmonic distortion characteristics. Transistor amplifiers exhibit a strong component of third harmonic distortion producing a "covered" or restricted sound when driven hard. Alternatively a tube amplifier when overloaded generates a whole spectrum of harmonics. Particularly strong are the second, third, fourth, and fifth overtones which give a full-bodied "brassy" quality to the sound. Tubes sound louder and have a better signal-to-noise ratio because of the extra subjective headroom that transistor amplifiers do not have. Tubes get punch from their naturally brassy overload characteristics. The feeling of more bass response is directly related to the strong second and third harmonic components which reinforce the "natural" bass.

In addition to these somewhat classical statements about tubes, B.K. Butler notes a lesser known but significant characteristic of tubes which also relates to their musical enhancement ability. This characteristic is the soft damping factor inherent in tube amplification which results in slight and pleasing deviations in both time domains and dynamics the key ingredients of musicality. This quality adds a psycho acoustic nature to the signal passing through a tube which the mind interprets as being spatially "expanded". The result is a "live" vs. a "canned" or "processed" sound. Therefore tubes enhance and improve the rather sterile nature of digitally-sourced and transistorised sound. For this reason, most professional musicians not only prefer to record and perform live with tube equipment, but they also favour tube amplification systems in their homes. There is perhaps no more qualified judges of sound than professional musicians, whose very livelihood directly depends on the quality of their sound.

Psychco-acoustically speaking, musicians make more objective subjects than engineers. While they're terms may not be expressed in standard units, the musician's method of measuring "by ear" is extremely valid. Consider the possibility that the ear's response may be quite different than an oscilliscope's. Tube preamplifiers are still the equipment of choice in modern recording studios. "Tubes have more bass it actually sounds an octave lower", says one rock guitarist. "Transistor recordings are very clean but they lack the 'air' of a good tube recording", "With tubes there is a space between the instruments even when they play loud transistors make a lot of buzzing", say many recording engineers. A number of musicians comment that transistors add a lot of musically unrelated harmonics or white noise especially on attack transients. The result of this research has indicated two areas where vacuum-tube circuitry makes an audible difference in sound quality: recording studio microphone preamplifiers and power amplifiers driving speakers.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2233
Registered: Dec-03
A little tube changing and voltage adjusting!

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 864
Registered: Dec-03
Don't hurt yourself Kegman! LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 866
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Great post on harmonics!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2837
Registered: Dec-03
"Great post on harmonics!" - I agree. Jan was telling us very similar things a while back, I believe.

Yes, 2c, Kegger is correct; I am interested to know how you get on with the Prologue 2. So will others here I am sure. I can send a scanned recent short review: it will make you feel good about your decision, if nothing else.

I am still inclined to go, first, for my electrostatic speakers, partly because I will want any amp I get to work with them.

But I am quite convinced about tubes (valves). I learned it here. Thanks, guys!

2c, if you write something on the prologue 2 on another thread, or start your own (why not?) then please just flag it here, too.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2234
Registered: Dec-03
""Great post on harmonics!" - I agree. Jan was telling us very similar things a while back, I believe."

Agreed I thought it was expanding upon what jan has been saying and sheds a
little light on the question of why are tubes considered better for audio!

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 870
Registered: Dec-03
To an audiophile, being bathed in second order harmonics, is like a Christian being bathed in the River Jordan. Sweet and liquid.
 

Anonymous
 
12AX7 vs 6DJ8

J.Vigne: Huh? The gain of a 12AX7 is approximately 100 vs 6DJ8 gain of around 20.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jakdaxtersgirl

USA

Post Number: 66
Registered: Feb-05
What r u guys talking about? What is this stuff??
Jeez, so much complicated crap...
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2840
Registered: Dec-03
J&D'sgirl,

This thread was started by Rich Barnes to discuss "tube", also known as "valve", amplifiiers and amplification in home audio. The first post on December 3 on Archive through December 09, 2004 began:

I thought I would move the tube discussions off "Old Dogs", so the ones with no interest in tubes would not be distracted.

"Old Dogs" is a reference to another thread, Teaching an old dog new tricks..., which is concerned with whether stereo is better than surround sound for music, and is even more complicated a wide-ranging. It usually has at least five subjects running at any time and Rick did a good job by trying to keep this controversial topic separate from the others.

Most of the writers on these threads have got to know each other, and their views and preferences, quite well, just by posting on this forum. And learned a lot (well, I have). I think I would react like you if I had just dipped in for the first time. Oh, yes, some of the contributors have changed their names, just to add interest....

"If you are not thoroughly confused then you have not understood the problem".
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2841
Registered: Dec-03
Should have been "Rick Barnes" but the slip is understandable, I hope he forgives me...
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2842
Registered: Dec-03
Yesterday I finally tracked down "Walrus Systems". I recommend it to anyone interested in this thread, or Old Dogs, if they find themselves in London with some time to spend. An Aladdin's Cave of tubes/valves and vinyl. Very knowledgable guy. They have some classy equipment. I put the hypothetical question "what is a good valve amp to go with with ESL 63 speakers I do not yet have?" and got a nice a reasoned resumé even on a busy Saturday afternoon. Also "when you've got them, just bring them in and you can try some". I really got the impression the guy was interested to know, himself.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Yes, quite a good response. Just sling an ESL-63 under each arm and stroll through the shop. Maybe he confused ESL-63 with LS3/5a, they sound a lot alike.




 

Bronze Member
Username: Jakdaxtersgirl

USA

Post Number: 72
Registered: Feb-05
Huh? What's a ESL-63 & L53/5a? & 2 J. Vigne it looks like you've been here alot, have u ever thought of signing up?
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2845
Registered: Dec-03
J.V.,

He did look doubtful and say "perhaps you have a car or something...?". He certainly knew what an ESL-63 was. We had a short discussion of surround sound vs stereo.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jakdaxtersgirl

USA

Post Number: 76
Registered: Feb-05
?
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

???




 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2848
Registered: Dec-03
,,
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2248
Registered: Dec-03
.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 880
Registered: Dec-03
!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

*%##@*&!! %&%$#*%#!!!




 

Gold Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 1452
Registered: Aug-04
And quite often I'd say!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Here's a possible cheapo tube tweak. Kevlar Tube Sox are sold as an aftermarket accessory to damp microphonics in tubes. Some tubes such as 6DJ8's can be quite microphonic since they were not originally designed for use in an audio pre amp. To check for microphonics, turn the gain of your pre amp up to a listenable level and tap on the tube with a pencil eraser. Some tubes are microphonic enough that when you get close to the tube and shout, you can hear your voice amplified through the system.

http://herbiesaudiolab.home.att.net/halofaqs.htm

Wall Mart sells product called an "Ove-Glove" in their housewares department. Made of Kevlar and Nomex, the fingers should easily fit on a small signal tube. If you can, cut the finger off the glove and cut the tip of the finger off for ventilation. Slip the finger over the tube and listen for the results.







 

Bronze Member
Username: Jakdaxtersgirl

USA

Post Number: 92
Registered: Feb-05
I just wanna know, how old r u guys? Not 2 b rude...lol, I like Wal Mart, it's fun, especially the supa center!! Yeah!! :-O
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Apparently we are all older than you.


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2251
Registered: Dec-03
Well I got my mono el84 based amp at 12watts from ups today.
She seems to work fine and the guy says he has a second which I'll pick up.
So that will be a pair of 12watt el84 monos for $100 shipped. Not to bad!

Upload
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 882
Registered: Dec-03
Kegman,

Congrats! The only question is what socket do the Fig Newtons plug into??????????LOL!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2252
Registered: Dec-03
Good one rick!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2254
Registered: Dec-03
Well My match to the el84 mono is on it's way.

And now for the grand prize!

Just brought er home today and were hookin er up!

Upload

That completes the collection! "for now" I think it covers most bases! LOL
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2255
Registered: Dec-03
Now well See what 8watt 300B is all about!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 886
Registered: Dec-03
Kegman,

I will look forward to your thoughts on the sound of the ASL-SET amp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2259
Registered: Dec-03
OOOOOOHHHHH 300 bees are following me in mY sleep!
They want me to go to there hive and jive!
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 888
Registered: Dec-03
On the subject of tube rolling, it's been said that the preamp tubes can play as much a part in the sound as the power output tubes. How does the driver tube play a part in the sound role if any? My amp uses (2)12AT7's and (1) 12AX7 driver.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2260
Registered: Dec-03
Actually rick I believe the driver tubes make more difference than the outputs!

Typically the first in the path makes the most!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

My experience has been the tubes that make the most difference in sound quality will depend on the circuit around the tube. The drivers are gain stages just as the output tubes are gain stages. Amplifiers such as my Macs use three tubes in each driver/input gain stage per channel, and each tube is pushed a bit less than an amplifier that uses one or two tubes to perform the same function. Changing one driver tube in the Mac amp is less likely to make the type of change that would occur in an amplifier such as the Dynaco ST70.

Obviously if you follow the idea that the front of the system is the most important place to make improvements, it would make sense that changing input tubes would have an affect on the sound of the output tubes. A faster tube will lend its character to the outputs where a softer tube will also change the results.




 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2265
Registered: Dec-03
Yes rick I'm actually suprised Jan and myself never mentioned the input tubes!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2266
Registered: Dec-03
Rick don't know if your still interested in omega speakers or if these ones even
appealed to you but here is a link to a pair on audiogon that look pretty inexpensive!

Omega TS2 Upgraded

http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrmoni&1115014739

 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 892
Registered: Dec-03
Kegger,

Thanks for the link. I'm thinking along the lines of finding a 98dB or better speaker, so the Jolida will run in pure class A. I also want to send the amp back to Response Audio for the mods, but don't want to give it up just yet. LOL! I'm also looking at some NOS preamp tubes. I need a pair of 12AT7 and one 12AX7. What have you got laying around for sale if anything?


BTW-I checked my amp for the Fig Newton socket and couldn't find one, so I put one under each of the iso conepoints. WOW! Talk about mid range warmth and clarity.....................
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Sweet!


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2270
Registered: Dec-03
Rick:

"I'm thinking along the lines of finding a 98dB or better speaker, so the Jolida will run in pure class A"

Don't know if your a horn guy or would consider or how much you want to spend.
But the klipsch I'm running are 98 and sound awsome with tubes to me!

There about $800 a piece new but can find them sometimes for about half that used.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2271
Registered: Dec-03
By the way the fig newton thing cracks me up!
They do work though too, can't beat um!
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

"A horn guy"? Hmmm? Well, Rick?


 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2272
Registered: Dec-03
Rick:

"I need a pair of 12AT7 and one 12AX7. What have you got laying around for sale if anything?"

I recently made a trade with a local guy and at the moment I'm pretty much at the
point of the least amount I'd like to have for rolling in all of my amps. But!

___________________________________

I would suggest ebay as I'm very very happy with the selection I've come up with
for very little cash in todays market of nos tubes!

I'd say on average I spend including shipping about $4 a tube for the small input tubes.

You really get better deals on the bulk auctions and with a tube tester your all set.
out of all the tubes I've gotten I have 3 bad tubes.
And I've bought more than 150 tubes.

I only bid on auctions that take paypal for payment and setup an account
at a local flagstar just for my online purchases as flagstar has unlimited transactions.

Then I just blast a bunch of auctions on the minmum side of what I'd like
get them for "taking into account shipping" and let em go! Works for me.

Or a little trick I learned is type in what your looking for then click "buy it now"
but now change the timing to newly listed and see everything that was just posted.
See something you like for the right price including shipping that takes
paypal and your in business my friend.

Know all the substitute #'s for the tubes you want and check them all.

Lately I've been picking up some of the in between tubes with good results.

If you are scared off by ebay or just don't want to do it email me and maybe
we can work something out as I do have a few tubes, "my prized posessions"

Take care rick and I highly recomend ebay, huge amounts of tubes sometimes!
 

New member
Username: Larry_hill

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-05
A good article on the 6DJ8 for use in preamps by Roger Modjeski, who designed the Beveridge RM-1. It appeared originally in Glass Audio, in 1995.

http://store.electron-valve.com/suof6dforau.html#
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2274
Registered: Dec-03
Hey a new member welcome to the team! Larry!

Care to share with us what your using these days or any other info?

Thanks for chimmin in.
 

Silver Member
Username: Rick_b

New York USA

Post Number: 893
Registered: Dec-03
"a horn guy"




we're friends and all, but I can't help you with that one..........................LOL!
 

Silver Member
Username: Jakdaxtersgirl

USA

Post Number: 112
Registered: Feb-05
On the picture: u guys r very unorganized....
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 2862
Registered: Dec-03
I wonder if anyone has any knowledge or view on the Papworth TVA50. There seem to be no reviews out there.

Quote: It can deliver 50 watts into either four or eight ohms, from its McIntosh output stage, using EL34 pentode valves in class AB1 push pull. The original circuit and transformer winding detail has been carefully maintained over the years, so that the purchaser can be certain of getting the true formula of one of the famous all time great tube amplifiers.
 

New member
Username: Larry_hill

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-05
Hi Kegger, you asked for some info about me, so her goes.

The newest addition to my system is a homebrew tube preamp based on the dyna pas, but heavaly moded. There are no original pas parts involved. It started with a set of fiberglass pc boards off e-bay, and and old California Audio Labs SLC-1 preamp chassis. I stuffed the boards with Dale metal film resistors, and polypropyline caps from Wima and Solen. Tone controls and loudness contour were not included. I also incorporated some of the mods in Norman L. Koren's article 'SPICE and the art of preamplifier design' where he uses PSPICE to correct a the flaws in the orriginal PAS design.
http://www.normankoren.com/Audio/Spice_preamp.html

I then built up a power supply using Triode Electronics replacement transformer, which has a 50% higher current rating than the stock tranny, a 10uf Solen polyprop, followed by 3 330uf el's. Having a good stiff, low impeadance supply helps a lot. On the filament supply, I used a 317 regulator to keep from overvolting the heaters. I plan on keeping it powered on at all times. I have a larger transformer that I want to use to build a fully regulated external supply later, and I am going to upgrade the current ps with hexfreds as soon as they arrive. Later I will add more of the mods in the Koren article, like the cathode follower stage, but only on the line stage and I will parallel the two halfs of the triode to increase current drive and lower output impedance. I will probably use 12AU7 instead of 12AX7 for this, because the lower mu 12AU7 tends to be more stable in cathode follower configuration.

Of course it is just breaking in now, but so far, is sounds very good. I was running passive before, and this deffinitely has more presence and authority, and with the mods it has fer more and better controlled bass than any stock dyna. Plus it has that good old tube magic, which was missing from my system.

I missed not having tubes, except for the SuperIt, and looked at picking up an old Dyna on e-Bay, but the prices were getting higher than I thought a 40 year old piece was worth, and I knew that I would want to mod it out anyway, so I decided to just build my own from scratch, instead of cutting up a pristine older unit, or having to overhaul a beater. So I now have the Dyna which is not a Dyna.

The rest of the system consists of a Hafler DH-200 power amp with a few mods like double the PS capacitance, and polyprop dc blocking cap instead of EL. Analog front end is AR table, Premier MMT arm, Grado cart, and NYAL SuperIt phono amp. Digital source is a Sony NS755 SACD player, and a California Audio Labs Gamma DAC for CD and DVD playback. Speakers are an old pair of Mirage 550's that have been around since the Regan administration.

My start in audio came whith the purchase of a NAD 3020 in 1981, and my first piece of tube gear was an old mono FM tuner someone gave me. The transformer laminations hummed, but boy was it fun to listen to. In the late 80's I went to work for California Audio Labs as an Electronics Technician, and had an orriginal Tempest CD player for a few months on loan, until I built an Aria for myself, which I later sold off. This was followed by the long dry spell with no new tube gear until I built the preamp.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 2275
Registered: Dec-03
Wow what a story larry I'm impressed and glad to see another modder and builder
such as yourself in here maybe we can learn a thing or two.

I'm a hack modder at best myself, that's learned along the way with some
electrical/electronics background. Also I've been tinkering with stuff all my life.

I figure everything can be improved so that's my aproach, "Get something descent
and try to make it better/improve it"

Lately I'm realing liking what pio caps do in place of poly's.
"just like the sound of them" They really seem to mate well with my horns.

Then I usually beef up the power supply capacitance.
And of course a good dose of nos tubes!

I've been in colection mode lately trying to gather as many different
pieces of tube gear I can get my hands on.

From an:
eico preamp 12ax7 (rebuilding)
dynaco preamp 12ax7 (tore 2 apart to make one)
dared preamp 12at7 fairly new
anthem preamp 6DJ8 (replaced coupling caps with pios and beefed up the power supply)

3 st-70's ,,, el34 based 1 modded with 12at7's
2 golden tube audio se-40's,,, 5881/6l6gc based, (rebuilt by me with parts from soniccraft)
rogue 88 ,,, kt88/6550 based fairly new
hammond organ ,,, el84 based rebuilding
antique sound labs ,,, 300B based fairly new
(replacing the poly's with pio's shortly, 4 caps in the signal path)

Plus some other variuos straglers.

Just acquired the el84 and 300B amps so I'll stop for awhile and do some listening.
Figure I got the bases covered pretty good.
I've been building speakers to so I've got plenty there also to test on the amps.


Some of the amps and speakers are still being worked on but I've got more
then my share of completly working and finished pieces.
Keeps me busy pretty much all the time. Yes I'm hooked you could say.

Jan Is the long time tube guy here in our little comunity who brings a lot of knowlage!

Some are just getting started with tubes while others are leering with a
lot of interest in what there going to do.

So any and all info/thoughts on the subject of tubes is more than welcome.
 

New member
Username: Larry_hill

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-05
PIO caps? Paper in Oil I'm guessing. I've heard they can be good, but they definitely have a use by date, which is about 20 years after manufacture, so be sure to get fresh newly manufactured caps. If you have an oil cap that was made the same time as your ST-70, the oil is long gone and it is just a dry paper cap at this point. On the shelf or in the circuit, they still age out. Same for electrolytics. NOS is a good thing for tubes, but a bad thing for caps. Teflon is supposed to be really good too, it is what Conrad Johnson is using in their new super preamp, the Act 2. CJ reports it takes exactly 100 hours of play for teflon caps to break in, and Stereophile confirmded it in their review.

My personal view on caps is any good polypropyline will do nicely, and I refuse to spend extra on magic caps. Wima, Solen, and Sprague Orange Drops work nicely for me. Not that I doubt they can improve the sound, (but not always, sometimes the magic in magic caps is black magic) but they are deffinitely way past the point of diminishing returns, and at a certain point you have to turn off the soldering iron and turn up the volume.
Frank VanAlstine, who has worked wonders with old dyna gear, regularly uses Orange Drops, and at one point tested WonderCaps, and found they were as microphonic as a bad 6DJ8! See his Audio Basics, 1/83: http://www.avahifi.com/root/audio_basics/ab_pdf/ab1983.pdf
By the way, AVA's web site is a wealth of good info, by someone who appreciates good sound and follows sound engineering principles.

Keep up the posts on the power amps, I have not gotten into that area myself, mostly because the cost of good power tubes is outside my budget, but I still like reading about them.
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