Older vs Newer Speaker Technology

 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
I own a pair of ADS M-12 Tower speakers purchased back in 1990 (Paid $1200, retailed for $1900, currently worth $600 blue book price). They are a great musical speaker. I have recently been reading a load of rave reviews about Paradigm speakers (especially Studio 60 and 100) - they are described as having the kind of sound I like. I haven't been out auditioning speakers in 15 years and am wondering if there have been advancements in speaker technology that might make me consider changing speakers. In the case of electronics, you get more for your money now than ever, but I'm not so sure if that would be true of speakers. I would much appreciate any advice.
 

Gold Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 2718
Registered: Dec-03
I'm wondering...do you want to replace the ADS???(if you do, consider giving them to me, I'll pay shipping!:-))
And no, I don't believe that speaker technology have changed much in the last 15 years, except maybe the type of materials.

There's a fellow in these forums named Jan, he is very good at this types of inquires. I'm sure he'll se your post and give a finer view.

Again consider me when you get rid of the ADS, heh!
 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Berny, I guess you like ADS! Me too. I auditioned a whole load of speakers at the time and these these ADS towers has an incrdible level of detail in the music. Their soft dome tweeters are classics. I've been very happy with them with for home theatre too. I was just wondering if after 15+ years there have been significant advancements at the same price point ($1500). I haven't been out listening to any new stuff since I bought these.

It's too bad that ADS got out of the home speaker business. Most everything they produced was outstanding and a good value for the dollar. A company in California makes products under the ADS name, but it's mostly for autos and some home theatre. It's not the same engineers or product line. Interestingly, you don't even see the old speakers on the used market very much - could be a good reason for that!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Cornelius

Post Number: 91
Registered: Jun-04
Like Berny said, it's mostly materials, other than that I'd say the rest is marketing. I think speakers are generally brighter these days to entice people in the showroom, thinking the speaker is more detailed and exciting. Paradigm in particular makes a zingy sounding speaker and there's plastic everywhere, something you won't find in older speakers.

I lean towards speakers like Ohm, Vandersteen, Magnepan, Meadowlark, Shahinian... They are basically variations of the original models (they've outlasted many other flavor of the month speaker companies, and various product line changes from the larger companies - for years). Yes, they are always tweaking, but they don't introduce drastically new product lines to entice new customers.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

"In the case of electronics, you get more for your money now than ever."

You wound me, sir. Me with my forty some year old McIntosh tube amplifiers. Now I find out I can have 100 watts X 5 channels with Dolby Digital, DTS, Pro Logic EX II (or whatever the newest version being peddled has been named)for movies and a separate such for music, EARS I & II, 6.1 and 7.1 matrixing, 5.1 analog inputs for SACD and DVD-A, subwoofer outputs (two I hope), a bunch of digital inputs both coax and optical, S-Video switching on a half dozen sources with upscaling, two zone operation , RDS tuning, 98 presets, and best of all, a backlit universal remote. And their blowing out last year's model to make way for the new piece with HDMI connections! What a fool I feel like holding on to this old clunker tube amp. But, still, the Mac sounds pretty good. So should I consider swapping it for something new?

Kind of an interesting question to me since that's how I acquired the McIntosh pieces originally. I was selling for a Mac dealer when the orginal owners of the Mac amps came in to see what was new. Tired of having old technology, it was time for a change. After nearly twenty years of owning the McIntosh amps, the owners traded them in for a Yamaha receiver with an awfull lot of features. It took me longer to explain all the features on the new amp than it did to put my money down on the trade in amps. I won't bore you with the details as the story ends rather unhappilly for the gentlemen who gave up their McIntosh tube amps for new technology.

Of course technology rolls forward and what you buy today may, if you're lucky, be considered a classic thirty years from now. What you have to decide is what you will get and, naturally, what you will loose. It would be nice to have that '67 Mustang back, but I don't long for a '67 Rambler sedan. Even the Mustang has it's obvious points of weakness when compared to a new Honda Civic with fuel injection, disc brakes and greater safety.

Your question was about speakers though, so we should get around to that subject. The technology of speaker design is vastly improved over what went into your ADS in 1990. Most importantly computers have entered the field and replaced quite a bit of what amounted to the cut and try method of speaker design that dominated the market in the 1950-80's. The ability to see and predict the break up in a driver or a cabinet has meant much better speakers at lower prices. The Canadian speakers have benefitted from this tremendously as Canada sank lots of money into their national research faciltiies. Who would have considered a Canadian speaker in 1975? The Theile-Small work on vented cabinets means today who'll seldom see a sealed cabinet such as your ADS uses. (Advantages and dsiadvantages there, in my opinion.) The ability to predict what will happen before a single panel of a cabinet is cut has dramaticaly changed the way speakers are made. The understanding of the speaker in the home environment has improved over the years as have the manufacturing techniques for building and molding speakers. I think if you go out shopping for speakers today, you'll be suprised at some of the technology stories that a salesperson can tell.

When I was still selling I decided speakers were the most evolutionary part of the hifi market. About every ten years it seemed there was a shift in the overall technology of speakers that made a significant difference in what I was selling. Speakers can get better because the material and technology that go into building a speaker gets much better. The portion of the market that shows this most dramatically is the less expensive speakers. It is much easier to find a truly good small speaker for less than $500 a pair than it has been previously. The other side of all this technology is how easy it is for someone with no design knowledge to plug a program into their computer and get a design of a decent speaker. This has led to an explosion on the market of speaker companies. There are literally thousands of speakers you can listen to before making your decision.

What hasn't changed much in the last fifty or so years is the sound of a musical instrument. A symphony still sounds pretty much like a symphony and an electric guitar still sounds more or less like the one Buddy Holly played. If what you purchased in 1990 had the basics of playing music correct, you may discover there is little you can find that really improves upon your old speakers. You may, however, find a speaker that does do something your speakers never got exactly right. Tighter bass from better design. Better extension at the high frequencies due to better muanufacturing techniques. Or maybe just a smoother presentation with less contributed by the cabinet.

Go out and listen. You'll never know what's out there unless you do. Don't be suprised if you see speakers costing as much as you paid for your first house. One of the remarkable things that technology has brought, along with unique economic expansion in some people's income, is the $80,000 speaker. The cutting edge of technology is quite well represented in this segment of the market.

Ask to listen to the new speakers in your home before making a final purchase. Only change one item at a time when you make a change. Don't hook up the new speaker cable until you're certain the new speakers are going to stay. If you decide to keep the new speakers, you'll have a bit of return on your investment in the ADS. Try to find another speaker that will give you that same return on investment.

Either way renew your subscription to the magazines. They're interesting and informative. But keep in mind, no matter what their stated editorial policy, they are trying to sell a product. Not any particular gear as some suspect. They are trying to sell a magazine. There will always be something out there that reads like it is better than you have any right imagining. The "in the next issue" section will tell you there is something that will be better than what they put in this month's issue. Nobody would keep reading if most reviews ended with, "Bottom line this amp is OK, but I'll keep my old McIntosh tube amps."




 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Thank you J. Vigne for your thoughtful response. I especially appreciate your comments about playing music correctly. I enjoy reading about and toying with the equipment, but I have neither the time nor the money to pursue it as a hobby. However, I love music - one of my greatest passions. It's part of my life - kind of like breathing and eating. My ADS's play music well, but it will be interesting to hear if these developments your describe will make any difference to my ear. Of course, the only way to find out is to go out and listen. It'll be fun to explore again (minus the sales hype!).

I remember also being impressed with speakers from Theil, Snell, and KEF when I last did auditioning, but felt ADS had equal sound for less bucks. Besides Paradigm Studio's, are there other brands in the $1500 range that, like the ADS, really play the music? Thanks again.
 

Gold Member
Username: Project6

Post Number: 2721
Registered: Dec-03
See, what did I tell ya?:-)
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest

Sorry, I don't as a rule make product recommendations. I don't know what you like and I am not in your position to decide. That is your job now.

If you read this forum you will find many speakers that play music better than any other speaker made. At least that's what the owners think.

Before you go shopping go to the pantry and get that grain of salt to take with you.


 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Thanks much J - I've got that salt in hand! If anyone else reading has thoughts about musical speakers, like the old ADS's, in the $1500 range, I'd love to hear it.
 

Silver Member
Username: Timn8ter

Seattle, WA USA

Post Number: 134
Registered: Dec-03
In addition to software simulation programs for enclosure development, magnet circuit design has improved, although we rarely see AlNiCo magnets anymore (too expensive). Neodymium is a wonderful magnet material and designers are very creative with their use of it. Aurasound and Adire Audio are two I'm familiar with that are very impressive.
 

Unregistered guest
Typically, this site provides a good overview:
http://www.hifichoice.co.uk/buyersguide_list.asp?category=SPK&subcategory=LSPKS

You mentioned the Snells, which I own - page 2. Also, would suggest auditioning the higly regarded Dynaudios.

In the end, you ears, budget, system and room acoustics will probably be all that matters.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 19
Registered: Dec-04
Having read the very informative comments already expressed in this thread, especially the tour de force by J Vigne, I'm not sure I can add much of value. But, as usual, that will not prevent me from expressing some random thoughts -

1) Computer programs to design loudspeakers. I'm not sure it's as easy as that. Unless I've missed something, I can't think of many Japanese loudspeakers which have received international acclaim. The likes of Sony and Matsushita have been trying to get recognition in the speaker field for many years. In spite of their massive resources they have failed to do so. Perhaps the oriental ear is different to the Western one? Or is that a racist comment?

2) For some listening, I use a 25 year old JVC Class A amp. It was reviewed badly at the time I bought it, but I thought it sounded good. I have bought much more expensive and better reviewed amps since then, but still prefer the sound of the JVC, with the newer purchases either consigned to a marginal role or sold on. Maybe I'm a weirdo for hanging on to this old-tech monster, but even if I paste the super reviews onto the 'superior' equipment it doesn't make them sound any better. I also have a Quad II valve system, made in the sixties - apparently worth over £1,000 according to Ebay pricings, but don't use it as the sound isn't as good as I like. Not everything old and revered is good.

3) My modern Castle Conway speakers have huge super magnets and high-tech carbon fibre drive cones which give enormous stiffness combined with light weight and sound really good. My parents have some 30 year old Castle speakers which use less efficient and smaller magnets and use some sort of plastic for the cones. They sound great too!

4) I assume that you live in the US, Rusin. I hope you have some good hifi suppliers where you can hear the products. We used to have decent hifi stores in the UK a few years ago, but they seem to have disappeared (around my area anyway). Anything I might want to have a demonstration of is usually a 2 hour drive away. Although my job has 6 weeks paid holiday per year, I don't like using a weeks worth of it to hear equipment 150 miles away. Hope it is more convenient for you to actually hear stuff before you buy it. :-)

: end of random thoughts :
Regards,
diablo
 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Thanks Diablo. I live in Tampa, FL but am a relative newcomer having recently moved from Massachusetts. There are some suppliers here, but I don't think I'll get as wide a variety here as in the Boston area. You and J. Vigne both make a critical point: older speakers, much the same as newer ones, can sound good or bad. The new technology can make a difference but engineers had some impressive results with older technologies. Your points about Japanese speaker technology are interesting - maybe they have a different ear. However, I recently read a review on an Australian website of a high-end Yamaha home theatre speaker system that was a rave. The reviewer runs a shop and usually is quite frank in his assessment and without any sales agendas. So maybe that will change.

JAW, Thanks for the link to the Hi-Fi choice listing. That will help great deal.
 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Update: Well I went out and auditioned the Paradigm speakers and it was very interesting indeed. My ADS M-12 towers, to my ears, are easily a match for the Studio 60's and 100's. The biggest difference (advantage to the Paradigm's) is less of a need to sit in the sweet spot. They are both great speakers, but nothing that would move me to make a change. I also auditioned the Signature Series S2, 4 and 8. Now that's another story. The S4's with a sub and the S8's alone were really impressive: massive soundstage, detailed, smooth/seamless bass to mid bass to mid. The speakers essentially disappear as you're enveloped in the sound. They blew me away! Ah, but the price! The S8's are 6K and the S4's are 3K, plus I was listening on a 3K Paradigm sub. I don't know how they stack up agaist the competition in that price range, but I'll bet pretty well.

So the bottom line is, I can get better sound than my old ADS's, but I would have to spend 3 to 6K to get it. My current price point is around $1,500. My question has been answered and my curiosity satisfied. I now realize that for my ears, I made a great purchase 15 years ago. I'd be nuts to sell these at the $600 book price when they sound as good as speakers costing over $2,000!

One thing that struck me is that the ADS sealed cabinets create a different qualtiy in the bass and mid-bass. Not better or worse than the Paradigm's - maybe a bit warmer. I'd have to do a direct comparison to better distinguish the sound. One thing I can say, if you're on a budget and need good speakers, used ADS can be an outstanding value.

Thanks to all who posted to provide your input. The HiFi and music world can be lots of fun.

All the best,

Jim

 

Bronze Member
Username: Diablo

Fylde Coast, England

Post Number: 29
Registered: Dec-04
Congratulations! Sounds like you have made a wise decision to stick with ADS speakers on the evidence of your ears. Many would have given in to new tech.

And, of course, you can always reconsider the Signature series if a windfall comes your way.

Always nice to get feedback.:-)

Regards,
diablo

 

Hamilton Va
Unregistered guest
I'm a newby and don't know if this is a good place to toss in another speaker/amp related question. But speaking of older speakers, I have a pair of Polk SDA 1Bs which I have been driving with a 10 year old Sony 100W amp. The speakers sound wonderful. My question is what type of receiver would you recommend to pair with these speakers. I primarily listen to cd's and that is my main interest but am looking at an A/V receiver at around $1,000. Any thoughts.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Rusin,
ADS may well be out of the speaker biz, but the designer, Mr Kelly is not. He started his own company called Ariel. Not hard to find. Glad your still enjoying yours. I'd look into something with a well executed 1st order crossover as your next speaker. Less phase problems. More musical. Easier load. For half what the Paradigm Ref line costs, you can get a MUCH better speaker with Green Mountain Audio's Europa Plus. One listen and you'll be saying "who's Paradigm?"
 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
Mauimusician,
Thanks for the tip on the Europa Plus. I'll look into it.

By the way, are you from Maui? It's my favorite place on earth. I also love Hawiian slack key guitar.
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Rusin, i'm not from Maui but I live here. One of my favorite places too. You'll love the GMA speakers. Hawaiian music is very special indeed. I'm a musician so i'm bud's with a lot of the local artists. Are you familiar with Keali'i Reichel? Nice stuff. Also got an AMAZING female vocalist from near by Molokai named Riatea Helm that knocks my socks off. There are many others. Look me up next time your out this way.
 

Rusin
Unregistered guest
I am familiar with Reichel (excellent). Will check out Helm. I really love the guitar players such as Gabby Pahanui (and sons), Atta Issacs, Leaonard Kwan, Sonny Chillingsworth, Ray Kane and others. They each have their own voice. The music is so much a part of the environment, the spirit and culture. I've been to the Islands on two occasions and would love to go back - some day I hope. You're blessed to be able to live there and play music. Thanks for the note,
 

mauimusicman
Unregistered guest
Rusin,
Do check out the GMA line. You'll be very pleased. And, mahalo nui loa for your kind words. I realize i'm blessed to live here and do what I love doing.
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