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Denon 3805 v. Yamaha 2500

 

Unregistered guest
Help. Admittedly, I'm not an audiofile, and therefore I'm stuck--I cannot decide btwn the Denon 3805 and Yamaha 2500 (or Denon 2805 and Yamaha 1500). I'm willing to spend around $1000, but I also want to get the most bang for my buck. (Why does Denon not include the $65 microphone?) I watch/listen to both movies and music about equally.

After looking at all the facts/figures on the receivers, my mind hurts. It seems like comparing apples and oranges--the respective websites do not list the same facts/figures, e.g., digital to analog vice analog to digital, Brown-Burr?, etc.

I recently returned a Yamaha 1400 (long story) and liked it well enough (not the amber display), but heard that Denon is better--smoother. I'm willing to upgrade, but don't want to throw away $$.

Wish I could set both units side by side and compare, but that's just not practical. Any opinions/thoughts out there? Much onbliged . . .

Norm
 

New member
Username: Natish

India

Post Number: 7
Registered: Feb-05
Go 4 yamaha rxv-1500.Itz sounds good for both for movie and music.go for rxv-2500 if u wan to control thro any home automation,since it has rs232 interface which is not avl in rxv-1500.apart from that yamaha is user friendly and has lot of features not avl in 3805.
 

Silver Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 161
Registered: Apr-04
My vote is for the 3805. I think that it sounds better than the Yamaha, but that's a personal preference. Denon will output to the sub in stereo mode, the Yamaha does not. Denon has a better remote.
 

anon12
Unregistered guest
news flash riches1, the yamaha does output the sub in stereo mode! it does not do it when it is in straight mode or direct mode.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 95
Registered: Jan-05
Norm,

My best advice is to not over-think the decision and go with your gut instinct. I was recently in the exact same position as yourself and was down to those exact same models in my new receiver search. Both are great products and you will be happy with either.

With both receivers, you can adjust the sound acoustics and taylor make the output to your personal taste and both will produce a satisfying sound. Take a look at the features, and let that be your tiebreaker. If you cant bring both home, which most people dont, it's impossible to judge the sound of a receiver in a store while being played on 'store' speakers on the showroom floor, because after all...........it's how well it performs with 'your' speakers is what's important. The store tests are often irrelevent, IMO.

You're just going to have to take a leap of faith on one or the other and bring one of the models home. If you arent satisfied, you'll have 30 days to make an exchange.

My biggest concern while making my decision was if the model I chose could push my trusty old friends(my front speakers are large behemoths with 15's with each going down to around 24 or 25hz)and it was important to me that the receiver could drive my fronts to their fullest extent during 5.1 surround mode.

In my evaluation of the two receivers, they were in a dead heat, and I think they are comparable on most levels. I liked many of the user friendly features of the yamaha better(YPAO system, GUI menu system rocks, cinemaDSP modes)and pulled the trigger on the 2500 using my gut instinct. It's simple to set up, and very user friendly.

I've had it for 3 days now, and spent countless hours reading the manual, playing with the GUI menues, adjusting settings back and forth, and generally having a blast tinkering with my newest toy. I have to say Im pretty thrilled with the results. Over the weekend, I used 'Saving Private Ryan' as a soundtest in 5.1DTS surround mode......

WOW.....Have you seen the TV commercial with the man sitting in in front of his HT with his hair blowing back and items flying backwards through the room??

That's how I felt!! Incredible!!

Whichever you choose, I highly doubt further exchanges will be taking place.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Look4sun

Post Number: 40
Registered: Sep-04
To Paul, so you finally ended your choice with Yamaha RX-V2500 ? And you said you had compared the 2 receivers (DENON 3805 and YAMAHA 2500), could you pls describe a litte bit detail the difference in SOUND aspect between these 2 receivers ?

To Riches, yes the Yamaha can output the sub in streo mode too. Any other points that you think DENON 3805 superb ? How about the DSP MODE in movie demo compare with YAMAHA 2500 ? Do they sound same or differ ?

Thanks. (I myself still confuse too in choosing this DENON 3805 and YAMAHA2500)
 

Silver Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 164
Registered: Apr-04
Anon 12:


(I go to the Yamaha website and pull up the Owners manual - page 39 of the Yamaha RX-V1500 owners manual and pages 38-40 of the RX-V2500 in this case.)

Here is my interpretation of what I read:

You can "downmix" multichannel audio to 2 channel sound with subwoofer output - (but that's not really stereo, it's downmixing), but you cannot output PCM sources (2 channel audio) to the subwoofer.

Now, if you can tell me your model number, I will go to the Yamaha website and take a look at the manual to see if I am mistaken with your particular model.

 

Silver Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 165
Registered: Apr-04
Look4Sun:

Nothing against Yamaha, I own one those as well(RX-V3000).

I am not however, a fan of DSP's, other than the "widescreen" setting for watching TV on my ...widescreen.

All the rest of that stuff, Jazz Club, Auditorium, etc. leaves me cold. Although once, while listening to the Black Crows really loud, I did like "Studio Mix" on my old Onkyo, but I have been unable to recapture that mometary fondness of DSP's.

I listen to CD's in "Pure Direct Mode" and that seems to remove a layer of "grunge" that I hear in other modes. So I am pretty much a Pure Direct for CD's, and DTS and Dolby Digital listener for multichannel sources.
 

Silver Member
Username: Riches1

Atlanta, GA US

Post Number: 166
Registered: Apr-04
Hey, you know what? I really don't care what you buy.

I offer my opinion as someone who has been fooling around with this stuff for 30 years. I am not evagelical about any brand. I have owned Pioneer, Kenwood, Yamaha, H/K, Onkyo and Denon. They were all like old girlfriends. I loved each one at the time, and then I got tired of them and wanted to try something new. What was the best that I ever had? The one that I have now. But that's always been the answer to that question.

I think you get what you pay for. At $799 US and above, - there aren't any "bad" choices as far as I am concerned. At that price point, the sound is pretty damned refined, and really gets down more to the feature set and the cosmetics.

I think H/K has a pretty face, but I am currently hooked up with Denon. But sometimes, late at night, when I am all alone, I think about that pretty, way cool light on the H/K.......

Some people take this stuff way too seriously, like its a religion or politics. If you are "passionate" about the music , and you're not a professional musician, you need to get a life.

If I hit the Lotto tomorrow, I might buy bigger speakers, but that would be about it. Oh, and maybe a 42" LCD, but no more.
 

New member
Username: Theoilslick

VernonCanada

Post Number: 5
Registered: Feb-05
i knew it everybody wants the pretty light on the HK it is hypnotizing, it screams buy me and together we will make magic
 

New member
Username: Theoilslick

VernonCanada

Post Number: 6
Registered: Feb-05
hey riches again remeber just follow metalic from the beach to the house
 

Bronze Member
Username: Look4sun

Post Number: 41
Registered: Sep-04
Any guys want to share their opinions or experiences between DENON 3805 and YAMAHA RX-V2500 ?
We welcome everyone inputs.

Tks
 

Bronze Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 100
Registered: Jan-05
to looks....

I believe people get way too analytical and make a simple purchase into a complicated process for no reason. I listened to both in a showroom, but what does that really tell me??

How can I properly evaluate them, or why should I care about a comparison based on a pair of generic showroom-floor speakers in a stale environment that isnt my own??

I mean c'mon.......with any of these new receivers, you can taylor make and change the sound characterictics in anyway you want, so why even bother to analyze the generic factory settings played on generic speakers during a retail store visit?? Lets face it, if you wanted to, you could go into your setup menues and make both models sound identical if you wanted too.

Most of my 'shopping' time was spent researching receivers and learning the new technology and the available features of current models. Once I did that, I knew what I was looking for, and that is key to the whole process. If you dont even know what you want, how can you choose, right?

Sure, I listened to them for awhile in the store, and kicked the tires.(so to speak) Heck, they werent even hooked up to TVs so you couldnt experience the onscreen menues, or do any real type of evaluation or experimentation. The only way that can be done is to buy it, and bring it home.

I dont sweat decisions like these and usually pull the trigger once I see what I want. For me, both models were good, but the Yammi was what I wanted, so I bought it. For me, it was that simple. I was more attracted to the Yammis YPAO and Movie settings, and userfriendlyness. Their GUI menue system rocks!! BTW, I couldnt test that in the store, but read up on it during my research:-) Once I got it home, I found out how cool it really was!! As far as sound quality? To me, they were equals. As for music settings???, well........I never bothered with those because I never really listen to music, unless I count our annual BBQ cookout......"LAUGH"

I listen to music while on the computer and in my car, but never really with my HT system.


 

anon12
Unregistered guest
Riches 1 try the Yamaha RX-V440. that is the one i currently have right now and i can have the sub output on both the analog and digital sources.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 330
Registered: Oct-04
" I mean c'mon.......with any of these new receivers, you can taylor make and change the sound characterictics in anyway you want, so why even bother to analyze the generic factory settings played on generic speakers during a retail store visit?? Lets face it, if you wanted to, you could go into your setup menues and make both models sound identical if you wanted too. "

All those DSPs, set-up options and general features should be 2nd to the actual sound of the unit. Not the sound in THEATRE, or WIDESCREEN, but the sound in Dolby Digital, DTS, and 6/8 channel direct mode. Different receivers sound different with different speakers. Different receivers stress different frequency responses, tailoring the sound to be more accurate in the low, mid and high ranges.

This is why buying one's first equipment is so difficult. It's how all the components interact with each other and the room they are in that is truly important. Don't be afraid to take stuff back to reach your end goal.

It also takes time to discover all the nuances and differences in sound equipment. At first one won't even know what they should be listening for.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 102
Registered: Jan-05
Exactly, that's why I was saying that people are wasting their time by spending countless hours 'in store' trying to soundtest receivers on 'store' speakers.

I agree that receivers sound different out of the box, but believe many of the audiophile topics are way overrated. On another thread, there are those discussing 'wire break-in'.....:rolling eyes:

I dont agree with the 'difficult' decision bit though. If buying fun related stuff like this is difficult and taxing, I'd hate to imagine the 'difficulty' of making a decision that isnt for fun. Choosing this stuff should be about as taxing as deciding the location of your next vacation. All fun and games........On friday night, will it be Pizza or Steak?? No big deal.....
 

Bronze Member
Username: Look4sun

Post Number: 42
Registered: Sep-04
Thanks guys for yr personal decision on choosing the receiver.
But for myself, I would personally do a kind of 'research' by listening to the stuff itself and also to people who already experience the receiver. If I already found the 'who's the best?', then I will stick to it.
And I think won't change the receiver again in a kind of short time (I would use it for a year to year). What bother the receiver again when in the next year there a brandnew receiver appear ? You will spend yr time again in listening this new receiver - and wasting yr time again.

So, for this moment of time, I really spend a month or less in finding a good (or best for me) the receiver. THen, after that, don't want to hear any other receivers around there if I already bought it.
.
But, I really want to hear anybody have some quantitative or qualitative experience with these DENON 3805 and YAMAHA 2500.
Better, if they could provide the internet link.
 

chAz15
Unregistered guest
The GUI menu's are pretty nice, it's very tempting, but it would kill my current Compenent / HDI hook-ups. I'd have to double back cable to my other TV upstairs cause the YAMAHA has NO Component outs in zone 2 only s-video / composite.

That is a defining feature if you are looking for one.

So if you are a HUGE gadget head like me and have HD in more than one room in your house this does make a difference.

I can't afford two HD TIVO boxes at grand a piece. Nor do I want to buy another 100 disc DVD player. So I run it into my DENON and shoot it out to both my component hook-ups on my two tv's, one in family room and one in bedroom. Quality is outstanding even with a 50-foot throw to a 30" LG lcd in the bedroom (upstairs on the other side of the house). The 6' throw to the 57" sony is as good as before.

Able to shoot DVD or HD TV to either TV using the Zone Control on the DENON.

If you run HDI you have to amp it. Component runs fine without amping.

So I would say that if you don't need this feature then save yourself the $240 difference.

Current CNET SHOPPER PRICE
Yamaha $659
Denon $898

L8R

chAz
 

chAz15
Unregistered guest
Throw some KEF KHT 2005.2 or Polk Audio's on there and you will not be able to tell a difference in sound quality.

They are both comperable. I think the Component OUT in zone two is where the money is being spent here.

Sorry for a follow up to my own post! =+)

chAz
 

Bronze Member
Username: Look4sun

Post Number: 45
Registered: Sep-04
Helo guys,
I just visited the www.digitalhomemag.com and seem they just reviewed the receiver DENON and YAMAHA in this current issue.
I don't sure the series, but it seems that head to head between DENON 3805 and YAMAHA 2500 (I just saw the magazine cover only).
Hmmm....I will rush to the book store to find this issue now - who's the winner I guess (????)
 

Chad1
Unregistered guest
Paul,

I am looking at the same receivers. Denon 3805 and Yamaha 2500. What I am having a hard time finding out is whether the on-screen displays work through the component video output like they do on the composite and S-Video.

My issue is that I am going to run a projector and I only want to run one component video cable from the reciever. While most of the receivers in this group say that they do composite and S-video upconversion to Component video, I haven't seen one that upconverts the GUI and transposes it on top of the component video signal. The Denon 3805 I saw a demo on really only used the OSD for setup and the receiver made a bunch of clicking sounds as relays inside switched the source of the video so you could see the OSD, but not the movie you were watching at the same time through the component video output.

I did see the Yamaha 2500 on display with the GUI hooked up to the composite output and the GUI displays rocked. (Intuitive, color, computer like) I have looked at the Onkyo 702 and the Denon and both of them have bland white character displays and neither could display component video input signal and the OSD at the same time.

Running a projector, I want to look a the big screen and tell where the volume is set when I turn it up and down, while watching the component video output. The same goes for seeing the other on-screen info. Does your Yamaha 2500 do this?

Thanks,
Chad
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 346
Registered: Oct-04
Off the top of my head the Harman Kardon AVR7300 is the only one that displays the OSD over component. It also upconverts composite and S-video to component which would be valuable in your application.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 130
Registered: Jan-05
Chad,

Im not sure exactly what you are asking. When I hooked up my DVD player, I used components into the receiver, and then components from the receiver to TV. That way I can easily access the GUI while a movie is playing without changing TV sources to see the OSD. There is no need to use composite or s-vhs on a separate input to access the GUI.(if that's what you're asking)When you access the GUI, you'll hear the sound, but only see the GUI menu. I hope that answers your question. The GUI menu text does not superimpose over the picture.(IE, like when you adjust TV volume while watching regular TV)

And yes, I agree, the GUI rocks and nothing else compares. Comparing the GUI to the denon OSD is like apples to oranges. I like to play around and tweak things while the movie is playing(if my wife isnt present..laugh)so this was a big benefit, and it blows competitor user interfaces clean out of the water.
 

Anonymous
 
I'm also trying to decide between these two receivers. I had an old Denon two channel receiver I was very happy with, but it fried in an electrical storm. Primarily, I'm intersted in the sound on basic two-channel stereo. I'm mating the receiver with B&W Matrix 3 fronts, B&W cc6 center and smaller B&W rears. Any comments?
 

New member
Username: Proscribe

New York, NY United States

Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-05
'm also trying to decide between these two receivers. I had an old Denon two channel receiver I was very happy with, but it fried in an electrical storm. Primarily, I'm intersted in the sound on basic two-channel stereo. I'm mating the receiver with B&W Matrix 3 fronts, B&W cc6 center and smaller B&W rears. Any comments?
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 157
Registered: Jan-05
The audiophiles wont agree, but these receivers are both good, and sound 'exactly' the same. Yea sure, they'll tell you they sound slightly different out of the box and attempt to explain their differences, but you can tweak, adjust, and equalize the sound qualities to your personal preferences. Generic 'factory' settings were irrelevent to me, and trying to sound test a receiver in a stale retail envirnment with somebody elses speakers will be enough to make you lose your hair(or more of it if that be the case).

I thought the quality of sound was a moot point when comparing these two because they're both good.

In the end, my tiebreaker was based on features and gut impression. The key is to know what you want in a receiver. I knew that I had plenty of time to make an exchange if I wasnt pleased with my choice, so it wasnt a difficult decision to make.

These are both good, and I doubt either will be exchanged regardles of the models chosen.
 

New member
Username: Blap0220

Post Number: 1
Registered: Feb-05
I was in the same exact scenario as the original post about 2 weeks ago. Denon 3805 or Yamaha 2500. But then I found the NAD T753. Same price, maybe lower. From comparison reviews, I have heard that the NAD T753 has better quality sound than the other two. The downsides are that it is only 6.1 and it might not be as user friendly. Have not used it yet. It grabbed my interest when I read the part about sound quality in the editorial reviews though. I pretty much only care about sound quality. All of the other stuff I need in receivers is usually there (eg. DTS, PLII, Stereo). Does anyone have personal experience with this receiver? Please share opinions. If I were to go and buy a receiver today, I would probably pick up this NAD instead of the Denon or Yamaha. Thanks.
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Bebopaloobop:
The only Nads I know about are the ones swinging between my legs! No, for real, Nad has gotten some good reviews but also some bad ones too. I say better to spend your dollar on name brands that you won't have a problem returning if your not satisfied.

Robert:
The big popular contenders are H/K, Onkyo, Yamaha, & Denon, Pioneer, oh yeah and Sony. All of my freinds have one or the other, all within the same price range. I have listened for hours to all of them through all sorts of material and guess what? They have all wowed me at times. Once you get into the "cruiser class" price range - ie: Denon 3805, Yamaha 2500, Onkyo 901, H/K 635 - the sound quality is great...period!! The rest is preference of features.

Power is another thing that confuses people. Rating vs output all channels driven, The H/K recievers win hands down (note I did not say output only, I said rating vs output). This is because H/K generaly under-rates its amps. I have read that the Denon 3805 has 93W output at clipping - all 7 channels driven (impresive power reserve). I have yet to see an all chanels driven rating of the Yamaha 2500. Oh and and guess what ? That doesn't matter either! Anything around 65W all channels driven will fill you room (average size) with enough volume to give you a wicked migrain before you finish your first CD no less a two hour long movie. The question is how clean and distortion free is the sound. At this level they are all within tolerances so that the human ear will not pick up the difference long enough to register.

Back to the features issue, I have done some comparisons of the two models in question and compiled a short list of +'s of the only features that really matter.

DENON'S +s:
^SUPPORTS DVD-A AND SACD DECODING.
^TRUE ONE CABLE TRANSMITION OF DVDA, SACD SIGNAL
^HDCD DECODING. (new 20 bit format).
^SUB OUTPUT ON 2CHAN DIRECT MODE.
^COMPONENT OUTPUT FOR ZONE TWO.
^100 HZ VIDEO OUTPUT (VS YAMAHA'S 60 HZ)

YAMAHA'S +'s:
^WINDOWS BASED SOFTWARE INTERFACE
(you may not use it)
^GUI INTERFACE (you will use it alot).
^THX CERTIFICATION (the denon meets the criteria).
^TRUE TO LIFE DSP MODES.
^BETTER AUTO EQ SET UP (truer sound feilds).
^MULTICHANNEL PERFORMANCE FOR PRICE IS THE TOPS.

My opinion is that the extra dollars for the denon is for the 'we got there first' prowess in terms of the one cable digital DVD-A & SACD, HDCD decoding, and for the 100 HZ video output especially on zone two. So if you want a future ready reciever that fully custom, then scratch your back pocket for the extra buck's, you won't be disapointed.

That being said, who knows if SACD OF DVD-A are going to be the longstanding contenders in high def music anyway? If your thing is great sound at a great price with near perfect flexibility and ease of use then go for the Yamaha, again, you won't be disapointed. Even if when all the bench tests are published and in the end the Denon does comes out as the most sonicly perfect reciever on paper, guess what? You will never, ever, hear the freeking difference in sonic nuances ...ever!!!
I hope this helps a little dude.

Oh! wait, did you want my opinion on which receiver to buy?
Here is what I tell myself: Save the money, buy the lesser of the two because, the next big thing is always right around the corner and you will want that too.

Migrain




 

migrain
Unregistered guest
Updates and Correction to previous note. I went to Tweeter based Sound Advice store and picked up the spects for both the Denon AVR 3805 and Yamahah RXV 2500 and noticed a few things:
1) The Denon AVR 3805 does not have a Component output for zone two! However it does have a composit output and what appears to be an Svideo output(The feature sheet only says composite). The Yamaha RXV 2500 has an Svideo output for zone two. (I'm not sure this matters to you)
2) The Denon AVR 3805 has true 8 channel external inputs and outputs while the Yamaha RXV 2500 says that it has 8 cahnnel exteral imputs, the specs tell the truth that it really has 6 channel external imputs with 8 channel "compatability" and 6 outputs. Just look at the back of the receivers and you will see that the Denon has 8 ins and outs, while the yamaha has 6. If someone out there knows what this "compatability" means and if it's relevent write back.
3) The Denon has a digital audio out for zone according to it's features list while the Yamaha does not.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 166
Registered: Jan-05
I run 7 channel surround with my 2500. I'm not sure about what your talking about when you say 'only' 6? I also have speaker inputs for two additional presence speakers in zone one, but they cant be played simultanously with the surround back.

If I were you, I'd look into the details to see if the Denon equalizes each speaker individually. From what it sounds like it doesnt, and that's a big deal. Heck, until now, I thought it did. Now im not too sure.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 367
Registered: Oct-04
Other users of this forum report that the 2 extra channels of the Denon 3805 can be used to bi-amp your mains.
 

migrain
Unregistered guest
To Paul:
I was refering to Pre-ins and outs not speaker wire outputs.
The Denon has 8 chanel analog pre-inputs for multichannel surround from compatable DVD-A / SACD players (refered to as multi-channel external decoder imputs). It also has 8 pre outputs.

The Yamaha advertizes that it has 8 channel analog imputs. Upon reading the reciever comparison chart of thier brochure however you will see that it only has 6 imputs, but is 8 channel compatable. I'm thinking this means that if you have a SACD player with 8 channel outputs the Yamaha will still be able to accept the signals only in 5.1 rather than 7.1 (5 + 1 sub = 6 channels where 7 + 1 sub = 8 channels) Anyone?

This is an odd thing for Yamaha to sacrifice on thier 2500 and 1500 when you consider that the RXV 750 and 650 each have 8 channel discrete imputs (unless they needed to make room for a larger power supply or heat sink wich would make sense, since the 650/750 and 1500/2500 all have the same size cabinets). The previous models 2400 and 1400 also only had 6 channel external imputs with 8 channel compatability, but they also boasted more power.

Also the Denon 3805 does equalize each speaker individually on its auto eq routine but it does so just a tad harsher and unrealistc than the Yamaha. That being said most who would buy the Denon are not as interested in what the receiver can do on auto, but what they can tweek it to do themselves.

To Kano:
Yes you can bi-amp the Denon 3805 main channels by looping the surround back imputs. AudioHolics review of the unit includes detailed instructions on how to do this. This is not something I would do myself since it's not mentioned in the manual. I'm just too chicken that way. I'm sure the Denon will shred my listening room just fine the way it is. That is, if I were to buy one.
Migrain
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 169
Registered: Jan-05
Kano, I really liked the bi-amp feature, and it nearly sold me on the denon, but after further review, I decided agaisnt it.

First of all, there are problems with biamping the 3805, and denon specifically says not to do it with that model. They have problems with biamping the 3805(unlike it's big brother5805)and reviews for it in bi-amp mode are pretty bad. It seems many experience feedback or humming sounds while trying to biamp the 3805. Not to mention that if you dont follow instructions during setup, you fry your amp.

Plus the fact that Denon specifically says to not do it with the 3805 caught my attention. Also, you have to bi-wire speaker wires......i dont like that Idea in the least. I guess that's a discussion for a different forum entirely.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 170
Registered: Jan-05
Migrain,
Thanks for the info. Off hand, I have no clue how many analog inputs I have because I dont have that many things to plug in. All I know is that when I look to the back, theres room for what appears to be a ton of stuff.

As for the equalization of individual speakers, the only reason I asked is that somebody on another thread said something to to make be believe that the denon did not, which caught me by surprise because I thought it did. Thanks for the clarification. I agree that it's fun to tweak the speakers manually.
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Paul: Again I'm not simply refering to analog inputs, just those that are reserved for multichanel surround decoding, But it's a mute point anyway since you seem to be using the Yamaha 2500 already.

For those that are still interested in the Denon vs Yamaha debate: One salesman at one Tweeter store said that I should go with the Denon because it has a better "punch to it". While yesterday another salesman in yet another Tweeter store said I should go with the Yamaha because I will be happier with it. When I asked why, he said because it's way easier to use.

Also, I read in the Audioholics review of the Yamaha that at high levels after a while the units internal fan kicked in. The unit was not hot to the touch but warm. However he was running 4 OHM reference speakers wich are very ineficient. Paul, have you noticed your 2500's fan kicking in at all?
Migrain
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 176
Registered: Jan-05
Migrain,
I've never noticed the fan kicking on. If it did, it wouldnt worry me unless it ran constantly.

I've pushed mine pretty hard and felt the top, and like any receiver you can feel the warmth, but at no time would I have considered it 'hot'.

As for multichannel inputs, there are 6 optical inputs, and three digital coaxial on the back. For my personal setup, Im only using two. One digital coax for DVD, and another for my satellite input. Since I only use mine for HT, I suppose I dont have as many inputs that others might use.

As for the salesmen??...heh

I take everything they say with a grain of salt because they're only pushing their personal favorites no different from anyone on this forum. Im sure you'd be happy with either model.
 

Elbrento2
Unregistered guest
Does anyone recommend using external amps through the pre-outs, rather than the integrated amps on the aforementioned recdeivers? I have a pair of Carver Silver-7t mono blocks for the front mains, then a pair of Carver TFM-15CBs for the center (bridged) and the rears (R & L). The Carver amps are solid and smooth, so I do not want to sacrifice them. Moreover, I no longer have the means to go the "seperates" route. Before I purchase a receiver, I wanted your thoughts.
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Went to Sound Advice in yet another city. The custom instalations manager said I should go with the Yamaha as the Denons tend to give them problems and the customers complain about the Pioneers being difficult to use.

The sales manager said that the Denon 3805 is Denon's best yet and so far they have not had any problems...yet. The instalations manager confirmed this, but added that other Denons have been "dead out of the box" and others, "many others", have had defects after instalations. They have been giving the customers with problems Yamahas till they could get a perfect Denon to reinstal.

To the suprise of the customers, instalers and sales people - who all had high hopes for the Denons - the customers ended up liking the Yamahas way to much to give them up when the fault free Denons arrived for instal.

The Instalations manager was a reletively young and happy go lucky guy, who seemed straight forward and honest.

A younger sales person wanted to sell me the Denon bad, but had to agree with the older guys that Yamaha tends to have great longevity. He showed me that the Yamaha comes with two years parts and labor vs the Denon's one. A four year extended warranty was just 65 bucks more, not too shabby.

He still did not want to swallow deep enough on the out-the-door-price so I left, feeling that at least I have made one more honest freind in the business.

PS: The Instalations manager uses a $6,000 B&K amp and pre amp so I know he was not speaking from pride of ownership.
PPS: Look, Denon guys, I'm just repeting what 3 guys said. I do know of course that the majority of Denon owners have been using thiers for years with no problems. I'm still undecided, but only because I work hard for my money. Hell, after all is said and done, I might even go with the RXV 750 or AVR 2805 or.....?
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 183
Registered: Jan-05
Migrain,

Interesting story. I wont give mine up either...heh.

How low could you get them on the 2500?? I was all set to order mine online, but bought mine retail at the last minute. I ended up paying $785+tax after haggling. I probably could have gotten it a little lower, but I wasnt overly concerned about a few dollars. If you buy it on the web, you can knock off about $100 more.
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Paul I could not get it that low. Sound Advice went as low as $900+ tax . I dont feel like buying online and I don't know of any other store in South Florida that carries or will even order the 2500.

Anyone know of a dealer other than a Tweeter company in South Florida?
 

New member
Username: Baund007

Richardson, TX USA

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-05
To All:

I'm a fan of a good deal. Both of these units are good. Let me just say this. How many recording studio's does Denon own or have professional recording equipment. How many different pieces of musical equipment does Denon make. How many professional mixing boards, drums, guitar, keyboards...etc I think everyone gets where I'm going. My point..wouldn't you like to have a good receiver at a good price from a company that also is responsible for recording the music as well? Now I know there are better pieces of equipment out there but at a sub $1,000 price why go with someone else!

Thanks
 

Arthur Ray
Unregistered guest
Paul: quotes from you. This is not meant to bash but educate!

"Lets face it, if you wanted to, you could go into your setup menues and make both models sound identical if you wanted too.

As for music settings???, well........I never bothered with those because I never really listen to music, unless I count our annual BBQ cookout......"LAUGH"

I listen to music while on the computer and in my car, but never really with my HT system.
The audiophiles wont agree, but these receivers are both good, and sound 'exactly' the same. Yea sure, they'll tell you they sound slightly different out of the box and attempt to explain their differences, but you can tweak, adjust, and equalize the sound qualities to your personal preferences. Generic 'factory' settings were irrelevent to me, and trying to sound test a receiver in a stale retail envirnment with somebody elses speakers will be enough to make you lose your hair(or more of it if that be the case). "

If you've ever replaced the passive parts in the signal path be it in the amp or
speaker and listened to them you'd know they can sound very different.
Replacing a dayton resistor with a dale you can remove the grainieness or replacing
an inferior poly cap or electrolytic with a good quality cap and hear the voices are
much smoother. Those are things that no volume adjustment or eq will fix. Then you have transformers or the amount of current one amp has
comparred to another has an effect on the control of the drivers.

There are so many variables that contribute to the sound of an amp/reciever or
speaker then just volume or eq that yes different amps/speakers sound different
to where you can't adjust for that and many people can hear the difference.
Maybe for you and your equipment/room they sound simular but for others there can
be huge differences that you can't adjust for.


Part of this may come from the fact that you say
you don't really listen to music
on your system. If you don't listen to music but just watch movies then you probably
don't notice these differences as easily. It's much easier to hear the sound changes
on music then movies and a lot of people use there systems for music playing and
get much enjoyment from that.

This may also explain why your not sure what (Migrain) is talking about with
the multichannel inputs!

Both sacd and dvd-audio are high resolution audio formats that come from a
dvd player that supports them and they come out in 6 rca cables that plug into
your reciever to cover all the surround channels.

So you need a multichannel input section on the back of your reciever marked
as such. what (Migrain) is saying he does not believe the yamaha has the future
support of having 8 inputs on the multichannel in and only supports the 6 channels.

FR C FL RS LS SUB Those would be the inputs!

But again if you don't care to listen to music on your system then you probably
don't care about those inputs either as they are for high resolution music!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 187
Registered: Jan-05
oh puh-lease....

Please tell me that somebody didnt just come in here to discuss the yanking apart of an amp and tearing out and replacing transistors and polycaps, etc...etc.., to make a point.

It's that same kind of individual who claims to be the expert, but couldnt pick his own receiver out of a lineup during blindfolded soundtest.

Ya know, If a frog had wings, it wouldnt bump its....ohhhh, nevermind. What's the point?

Whats next, is somebody going to inform me that if you bludgeon your receiver with a sledge, and soak it in acid, that you can 'shockingly' detect a change in it's sound performance too?

Give me a break.........

These audiophile cooks crack me up.
 

Arthur Ray
Unregistered guest
paul:

So you believe all passive parts (IE) resistors/capacitors/coils and whatnot
have the same sound and effect on the music?
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 189
Registered: Jan-05
Arthur,

I agree 100% with what you said.

If you disassemble the receiver and strip quality parts and replace them with junk, the end result is the receiver will sound like garbage.

I would have never thought of that and I thank you for your input because I just so-happened to be thinking about doing that very same thing this weekend. I built a "McGuiver" FM tuner with a wire, nail, paperclip, sodapop tab, and bubblegum, and was planning on installing it into my new receiver to see if it would have an adverse affect on my FM reception.

Since you've been kind enough to bring that topic to my attention, I see the error in my ways and understand why it would be a bad idea. Heck, I would have really created a big mess, and I'll be sure to not disassemble my receiver anytime in the near future.

Mucho Gracias for saving my receiver.
 

Arthur Ray
Unregistered guest
Paul well you chose to take an educational process and turn it into
something for your own amusement. Hope you had fun with it.

As you missed the whole point.

The point wasn't to tear apart your system and put in crappy parts.
The point was to show you why amps and speakers can sound different.

Different parts sound different when used in a curcuit.
Some manufacturers use certain brand parts and some use lesser quality parts.
Those 2 things alone can change the sound of the units not to mention others.

Keep an open mind to things you don't know! And maybe one day you will understand!
Or do some research on building amps and see what the experts have to say
about the parts they use and why they make a difference!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 196
Registered: Jan-05
Arthur,

It would have helped if your response to my quote was remotely relevent to what I was talking about. It was so far out in left field and irrelevent to what I was saying, I had no rational response to offer.

And yes, at least I thought it was funny and I did had fun with it.

My original statement had nothing to do with a Yamaha or Denon(either exactly, or remotely) sounding like a lousy amp with cheap inferior construction...........Of course a cheaply buit amp built with junk components will sound like garbage. That's a given........

I realize you were trying to get at my comment about the Yammi/Denon comparison, but how you went about it was way out there.

No hard feelings.....just having a little fun here.
 

Dan R
Unregistered guest
On the confusing subject of multi-channel analog inputs:

I just got a Yamaha 2500 yesterday and was a little disappointed when I looked at the back panel and only saw a 5.1 analog input. Reading through the very thick manual, I finally discovered a short section on how to do 7.1: You plug the back surround outputs into the things labeled as "front/2nd surround" inputs, and plug the front outputs into the regular two-channel audio inputs. Then you go through the configuration menus to set multi-channel analog audio to 8-channel mode instead of 6-channel.

In general, I love the features and sound quality of the 2500. The only complaints I have are: 1. The remote is not very good, but I use a Harmony remote for ordinary day-to-day use so this doesn't matter much. 2. The parametric equalizer really needs more bands in the 20-200 Hz range, since this is where most rooms have trouble.
 

Dan R
Unregistered guest
Elbrento2: I think you would probably be happy using either receiver as a preamp for some or all channels. Audioholics' tests found the Yamaha RX-V2500 output 20Hz to 20kHz +0/-0.1dB, adding "... the RX-V2500 would serve as a great preamp/processor to those wishing to use separate power amplifiers." I would expect the Denon to perform very well also, but I don't know as much about it.
 

Dan R
Unregistered guest
One more complaint about the Y-2500, after spending another evening with it: the only surround modes that are easily accessible are DSP modes. Watching TV with a simple Pro Logic decoder for a two-channel input without any DSP involves going through on-screen menus.

I hope I'll be able to find some easier way, but there should really be a button for it on the remote. Maybe they could have merged the "Entertainment" and "Movie" buttons, both of which cycle through DSP settings, and added a "Surround" button.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 222
Registered: Jan-05
Hi dan,

YOu can change all those modes directly with the remote. There is no need to go into your OSD.

For example, if you want to surf your DSP modes, simply press the #4 button labeled 'movie' and if you press repeatedly, it will surf through various DSP modes.

If you want THX, just press green #5 button labeled THX, and so on...and so on with all the music, movie, and various modes available.


OK, to answer your direct question......

If you are playing in 7 channel surround and want to surf various decoders for your back speakers, just press the #8 button labeled extd. sur.twice and it will manually activate your back speakers and show the format currently in use. While it's still on display, you can then hit the right arrow key to surf through various extended surround decoders...ex/es, PLIIx and so on...and so on. If it's just a TV source, I tend to use PLIIx as a default because I always use 7 channel mode for all sources. The only time I change it is Im playing a DVD recorded in DTS or DD ES/EX, and then I'll change it to that via the remote as described above.

All that stuff can be done directly with the remote once you familiarize yourself with it. Im at the point, where I can do all that stuff in the dark......LOL. Aaaaahhhhh, lifes great, isnt it?

Also, pay attention to see that the light is lit on the display for the back speakers. The receiver picks up on flags to activate them and sometimes those flags arent present and the AUTO mode wont work, and you'll have to do it manually. I guess it depends on the source.

Good luck, hope that helps.
 

Dan R
Unregistered guest
But button 4 cycles through the DSP modes. I'm looking for a way to do Pro Logic without DSP.

I'll keep trying and take your word for it that there's a way.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 227
Registered: Jan-05
Sorry dan...

when I explained swapping decoders with button 8, I thought I answered your question directly by showing how to swap from DD or DTS ES/EX, PLIIx with the remote...etc...etc...

Apparently, I had no clue what your asking. You might want to clarify. I thought you were asking how to switch DD or DTS decoders without going to the OSM.........sorry.
 

pkn25
Unregistered guest
I have a Yammi 2500. I found out that it doesn't output much (or sometimes none) to the SW in multichannel mode with SACD. Some people suggests the use of IBCM (Integrated Bass Controlled Managememt). You guys have any thoughts on this? The IBCM unit costs something like $240 US.

Also, I hooked up the 5.1 Multichannel from my player to the 5.1 Multichannel inputs of the Yammi. When listening to SACD/DVD-Audio, if I switch 6ch to 8ch MultiChannel (from OSD, is there a way to do this from the remote?), the back surround speakers are turned on, but the 2 front speakers get turned off. Can anyone help with this one? Thanks in advance.

Peter
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Dan R.
On the multichannel inputs issue:
The mutichannel inputs on the back of the 2500, as pictured in the brocure that I have, do not have any that are labbled: "front/2nd surround" as you mentioned, but do have a set labbled: "FRONT(6CH)/SB(8CH)".
Perhaps actual delivery units are labled diferently than the brochure.
Questions:
1)You mentioned the regular two-channel audio inputs as the place to plug the front channels in this configuration. Would you be refering to the DVD analog L/R inputs?

2)Once you set it up for this 8 channel option, can you toggle between 6 channel and 8 channel stereo, or do you have to rewire again to go back to 5.1?

3)In this this 8 channel option, is the receiver still able to produce the same multichannel mix as dubbed on the DVD-A/SACD (direct 7.1 to 7.1),or does it have to remaster the incoming channels with virtual procesing to mimmick a true 8 channel discrete mix?

All of these question arise from this 8channel "compatible" statement made in the brochure. A diragram in the brochure for the 2500 shows that the 8 channel etx analog signals are not passed through the DSP processing or the DACs(192khz/24bit). A review of the Denon 3805 shows that the DACs are also not engaged for the EXT inputs. The fact that I cannot engage the DSPs on the 2500 is a bit disappointing to me, I'm not sure if the 3805 bypasses the DSP modes for external decoder inputs as well.

To pnk25:
The reason why you cannot get an 8 channel output when you switch to 8ch is because you only input 6 channels. Refer to Dan R's note above to do 8ch (of course your DVD player will need 7.1 outputs)
Also, to get better bass from SACD you would need a DVD played with base management for SACD but I think it can only be passed digitaly even from the Denon 2910 and 3910. This would be a good thing to do some research on.
 

pkn25
Unregistered guest
Hi Migrain,

Thanks for your reply. I did a bit more digging and experimented with the 6ch/8ch set up. The manual did say that for 6ch analog input, all signals go to the receiver properly. However, with 8ch analog, and if the DVD player has only 6ch output, the front signals from the DVD player becomes the Surround signals on the receiver, and the front signals from the 8ch DVD player go to another audio analog input. This is why my front speakers got turned off since the front signals now go to the Surround. I have the Samsung 841 player, which only has 6ch analog output. I played around and use the analog 2ch output (Red and White) to input to the Yamaha DVD analog input (Red and White) and select this as front signals for 8ch. This seems to work fine and now I have sound coming out of all 8 channels and the whole system sounds very good. I guess I could stay with this set up to fake an 8ch from a 6ch DVD player. Toggling between 6ch and 8ch doesn't need rewiring. I think DanR probably has done the same thing. I wish I had seen his post earlier so that I didn't need to spend half of my Sunday experimenting with this :-). The only thing now that I have to go to the Yammi OSD to toggle between 6ch and 8ch. I couldn't find any information in the manual to do this on the remote. Anyone has done this and please share your opinion?

Also, regarding bass management, the Samsung has the speaker setup. This setup seems to overwrite the Yammi speaker setup and therefore I have virtually nothing going to the Sub since the Samsung setup was all LARGE speaker. I changed all speakers to SMALL instead of LARGE, although all my speakers should be large (the AxiomAudio Grand Master). This pushes the LF to the Sub now and everything sounds better now.

pkn25
 

Dan R
Unregistered guest
Paul: I was looking for the "Standard" button. I found it as soon as I got home. Problem solved. With "straight", "pure direct", and "standard" buttons all doing different things, it's not surprising I had a hard time finding the right one.

Migrain: You are correct about the labeling. I was working from memory, hoping that I was close enough to be useful. I think the way it is actually labeled makes things even clearer.

Migrain's questions:

1. Yes, you would use the analog L/R inputs, for the DVD or any other device, all the way across the back panel of the receiver. Which device's L/R inputs to use is yet another configuration option, but DVD is the default.

2. Yes, I believe that's correct. Toggling between 6 and 8 channels on the receiver would require changing connections (unless you're doing what I believe pkn25 is doing, connecting front DVD outputs on a 5.1-only player to both the front and rear channels).

3. I'm not qualified to answer that. The only SACD I have is two-channel, and I always use digital for movies.

Having spent a weekend with with the 2500, I'm even happier overall, though I believe I heard some fairly loud popping distortion, mostly during dialogue, with some of the DSP modes. Time will tell whether I'm mistaken. With non-DSP modes, the sound quality has been excellent without exception.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 233
Registered: Jan-05
I would definitely check your center channel speaker wiring. One of your wires might be either loose, or reversed. I had a loose wire once, and my first impression was that I damaged my center channel speaker.

Whenever I turned up the volume to get the bass thumping, the center channel would pop because of the vibrations in the room. Luckily, the first thing I did was check the wiring and saw that while it was still connected, one of the wires were loose. Problem fixed....
 

YamDen
Unregistered guest
Norm, buy the frickin' Yami 2500!!
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
I did quite a bit of digging on the 2500 vs 3805 deal and here is what I have concluded:

These two receivers should really not be pitted head to head because they are in two different catagories. Now before you go spouting, just read. On the surface they look like they would be in the same playing feild, after all they are both 7.1 recievers with 120+ Watts per channel output ratings. However in the real world the true seperator becomes build quality and features.

The build quality issue encompasses power supply and reserve. In this area the 3805 is capable of greater power reserve plain and simple. Allow me to explain.

The 3805 has a power supply of around 852AV (7.1 amp draw at 120 volts = 852 amp-volts). The yamaha 2500 clearly indicates that it has a 630AV draw (no calculation needed)

Using a popular formula to determin power output driving all 7 channels you arrive at about 78 watts per channel for the Denon, all channels driven.

Here is the formula: AV x .7 - 50 for processor overhead / # of channels).

Therefore, take the 3805's 852AV x .7 = 596.4 - 50 for overhead (approximate) = 546.4 / 7 channels = 78.05 watts per channel, all 7 channels driven.

Now take Yammie's 630AV x .7 = 441 - 50 for overhead = 391 / 7 channels = 55.85 watts per channel all 7 channels driven.

The Denon's 26 additional watts per chanel can be a nice added boost for intence surround action in movies and music. I must say however that the 2500's 55 watts per channel is plenty enough to fill even big rooms with very loud sound.

On the features issue, the Denon far outscores the Yamaha in term of both nessesary and extra features. Some of its more notable features include:
^Denon Link - 1 cable transmition of both video
and audio including DVD-A and SACD.
^DVD & SACD decoding.
^Extremelly accurate auto setup of speaker size
distance and level.
^HDCD DECODING. (new 20 bit format).
^SUB OUTPUT ON 2CHAN DIRECT MODE.
^100 HZ VIDEO OUTPUT (VS YAMAHA'S 60 HZ)
^True 8ch ext imputs
^DSP processing on 8ch ext imputs.
^8 differential DAC on all 8 channels Burr Brown
brand name.
^Display shows input channels used.
^Power output for zone 3
And some more I have forgotten.

The Yamaha is a strong receiver with some things that set it apart from the Denon like:
^THX DSP Proccessing (2 different modes).
^Presence channels (better for projection
watching than the Denon because they raise the
front sound feild).
^DSP modes are a bit (in my opinion) truer to
life.
^Button style remote (you can go by feal in the
dark).
^Better sounding auto-EQ than the Denon
(according to sources).
^"Silent Cinema" surround through headphones!
(I could not find a remark about the Denon
having this feature although it may).
^S-video output for zone 2.
And others.

The Denon does outweigh the Yamaha in term of features and power, however it also costs more.
Yamaha seems to offer bulk buyers deep discounts allowing them to sell the 2500 to the public at well under retail. The Denon however is hard to get big discounts on. You may be able to pick up the Yamaha for hundreds less than the Denon therefore the price justifies it having less features and power.

Some features on the Denon are not useable yet, such as the true SACD signal wich is still awaiting licencers approval. Also the amazing Denon 3910 DVD player still only has 6 channel outputs so you probably will never use the 3805's 8 CH EXT inputs anyway.

Tits and tats like these show me that If you like Denon, want as many possible features as can be crammed in a reciever, and have the money, go with that. However, if you are a diehard fan of Yamahs DSP or are looking for a powerfull reciever for less money, then go with Yamaha. The price justifies the decision in either direction.
Migrain
 

Anonymous
 
It would really seem that the Denon AVR-3805 would have a much, much better pre-amp section than nearly all other receivers in this price category, due to its multiple Burr-Brown 24/192 DACs per channel in differential mode. This would translate into very genuinely better, true hifi sound quality from this unit. Is this true?
 

Anonymous
 
Pioneer Elite uses Delta Sigma DACs which are considered below the Burr Brown DACs but I don!t
know about Yamaha
 

Bronze Member
Username: Dary

Sao Paulo Brazil

Post Number: 58
Registered: Apr-04
Migrain,

Audioholics has tested both and I believe they found the Yamaha is a better value for the money.

Have you actually listened to both units side by side?

Thanks
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
Dary Llha,

I have listened to them both side by side, but did not spend enough time adjusting all of the modes. The folkes at Sound Advice - a Tweeter owned Florida store, and the only place in Florida that I know of where you can hear them side by side - like to set the units up themselves. In my listening auditions the Denon definitely had more impact than the Yamaha, while the Yamaha had that sweet old warm sound that I have come to love.

I like audioholics reviews for thier objective look at all of the features. They rated both the Denon and Yamaha 4.75 out of 5 for the value aspect. Thier ratings scale is weighed heavily on price per unit. They rated the Denon 5 stars out of 5 for the build quality and the Yamaha 4 1/2 out of 5, again, based on thier price.

Audioholics - as far as I know - has not published the bench test results for the Denon 3805, while HT has not done a review of the Yamaha. Therefore I am not able to do a side by side comparison of the output, noise, or distortion levels. I read that the Audioholics tester noted very low noise levels on the Yamaha but so did the tester for HT with the Denon.

I would like to see a Lab test from HT for the Yamaha 2500 because I feel the way they communicate thier findings is more applicable to multichannel listning.

Based on Audioholics reviews alone it seems that for the money, both units are as good as they get in terms of build quality, sound quality, featurs and value.

I have created an exaustive comparison list of all of the features and specs that I could find on both units. I plan to attatch this list with a future message soon. In the mean time, a couple of nice qualities of the Yamaha that I did not incude on the above list are:
^User frendly GUI
^One button instant auto room and EQ function.
^Set up mike is included.

Anonymous:
To your question:
"due to its multiple Burr-Brown 24/192 DACs per channel in differential mode. This would translate into very genuinely better, true hifi sound quality from this unit. Is this true?"

Yes under certain modes. The Denon upgrades all of the analog inputs through the DAC's and I think this includes the multichannel ext inputs as well. I know for a fact that the Yamaha routes the mutichannel signal around the DAC's because they show the routing illustraion in their brochure.

As far as the differential factor, this does seem to allow more detail in the signal to be picked up.

Remember as far as these two units go, you get what you pay for. For the diference in price I could buy a nice HTB for another room in my house, say a spare bedroom. Best Buy has a 1,000 watt HTB from Panasonic that got a reviewers choice award from Sound and Vision Mag. The unit decodes DVD-A and HDCD in a five disc reciver and cost $399.00 (Costco has the next version down for $299.00). So I figure, why give my guests a whimpy little bookshelf radio when for the difference between the Yamaha and Denon, I could show some love and treat them to a theater in their own room. This will keep them from hanging out in my media room till all hours of the night burning my precious CRTs.


 

Bronze Member
Username: Dary

Sao Paulo Brazil

Post Number: 59
Registered: Apr-04
Thanks Migrain!

I was evaluating a NAD 773 versus the Marantz 8500, as I posted on another thread. After some research I started to consider the Yamaha 2500 or Denon 3805 provided I add a power amp after some months. Problem is that it's very difficult to audition these units where I live. I've had a NAD 773 for some time I liked very much its sound. Question is: which one (2500 or 3805) would you buy if using an external power amp?
Thanks
 

New member
Username: Baund007

Richardson, TX USA

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-05
I'm just getting ready to install a Parasound HCA-2205A unit using the Yamaha 2500 as the processor. If you are one that buys by the remote function then the Denon has a better remote. But the Denon is 100 more. For 100-200 you can go out and buy a Home Theater master remote that will blow either remote away.

Either will do well. I just have more experience with the Yamaha product.
 

Anonymous
 
I have a Carver 806X amp and have been considering these two units as processors but I have been looking real hard at the Pioneer Elite VSX56TXI over these two units and was wondering why there has been very little forum traffic about this receiver.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 307
Registered: Jan-05
If you just need the surround processors, why dont you just get a cheaper 7.1 receiver with the exact same processors????

Why on earth(besides vanity)would you spend $1500 on a receiver when there are <$400 receivers with the exact same surround processors??
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 403
Registered: Oct-04
For the same reason you can pay upwards of $10,000 for a high end processor.

It has better processing. It has better digital to analog conversion. It has better DSPs that limit white noise and distortion off analog connections. It has better quality connection points on the back panel. It has less processing noise.

Anonymous, while I disagree that $1500 receivers have the same processors of a $400 receiver, I don't understand purchasing a receiver with 7 channels of quality amplification that you plan to use in conjunction with a 6 ch power amp. Do you plan on bi-amping and using the 56TXi to power the tweeters? If not you can get better processing out of a stand-alone pre/pro such as the Outlaw 950 or NAD T163.

And Paul : Here is another example of the difference straight off the NAD T163 specs :

" Pre-amp Outputs employ discrete component buffer amps for ultra-low output impedance and high current drive"
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 309
Registered: Jan-05
Kano,
That's all BS and you know it.....For one who wants to spend 10k on a surround processor, that's one thing. Im sure there's plenty of snake oil included to make it worthy of such a cost.

But to use as my example......
The person who spends the money for a Yammi2500 for only it's processor is interested in nothing other than vanity. Are you trying to tell me that the PLIIx decoders in a $1000-1500 yammi/Pioneer are superior to the same decoders in a lesser model?? C'mon......total hogwash.

The processor in less expensive models is not inferior in anyway. If you enjoy listening to music in PLIIxEX/ES......you wont find a difference between the Yammi650, or 2500. Nothing but vanity and BS.......If he plays golf, he's probably carries a 20HC and has the latest best $500 driver too. Sometimes, you waaaaay overanalyze things and turn a simple purchase into an extended science project. let your ears be judge.......and pick the winner. The rest is BS.

 

RAK
Unregistered guest
I see both of your points. I currently sold my Sony 9000ES pre-amp and am looking for the most up to date processing. My only dilemna is I am running my 806 in 3 ch x 350. My main speakers (Amrita Pillars) are power hungry and need the power, trust me I have run my 806 individually and I can tell the difference in dynamics, both ST and HT. So what I need is some amplification for the rears and some processing that has an auto feature for HT.
I have numerous test disks and a radio shack spl meter, so I tend to tweak my system but the new technology is getting so good it is hard to match especially when you have differnt brands of speakers (Def Tech CLR3000 center & BPVX rears).
I have not done enough homework but are there some manufacturers with mic phone auto setup?
Thanks again for your input.
 

Unregistered guest
I live in Nova Scotia Canada. My small town dealer suggested 2803 for $ 1100 and Yahama 2500 for $950.
After reading all your expert advice, I think I am going for 2500.
Am I right?. Reassure me guys!
 

Anonymous
 
Tweeter has 15% off on receivers until March 31st
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 406
Registered: Oct-04
Paul, you seem to be under the impression that surround processing is universal. Do you believe the only difference between the Yamaha RXV-650 and 2500 is the power per channel?

Every step in the process can affect the overall presentation. When I purchased a Denon DVD 2910 I expected to see an improvement in PQ, CD, SACD, and DVD-A through the 6 channel direct output. I was surprised that there was a major improvement in Dolby Digital and DTS playback as well. Since all the player is doing is reading the digital track and transporting it to the optical out this should illustrate my point well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 310
Registered: Jan-05
No, what I'm saying is that PLIIx, and other various surround modes common to both models are the same between the 650 & 2500. To suggest that the PLIIx mode on the 2500 is superior to the PLIIx mode on the 650 is ludicrous.

Also to suggest that the the DD or DTS output is technically superior between various DVD players in a similar price range is more subjective and placebo effect than anything else. Sure, if you buy junk that doesnt do what it's designed to do....well, that's a given that it's output will be flawed, but cheaply built flawed components is not what Im talking about.

I'll get a little facetious with my next statement....Now that 7.1 surround is becoming a staple.

In each new model year, receiver manufacturers will continue to reinvent the same darn wheel to sell product.

Next year, it will be the super-PLIIx, and the following year the 'in' thing will be the super-duper-PLIIx. All marketing hype trying to convince people they need to buy a new receiver. In reality, it's merely marketing presentation and hype. Not until DD or DTS become obsolete(like Pro logic recorded movies), will there be a real reason to upgrade your surround processing. The rest is audiophile BS right up there with speakerwire break-in and the other many silly topics. Until recording formats change in a revolutionary way, they're just putting a fresh coat of paint on the same old wheel.

PS...I hardly believe you can hear a difference between the obsolete DolbyPL from a quality 1990 model receiver, and a DolbyPL processor sold with todays receivers. No matter how you slice or dice it.....it's the same old obsolete processing method.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 311
Registered: Jan-05
Dr,
Be sure to negotiate price. I negotiated my 2500 from $999 down to $785. I probably could have gotten them a little lower but I was satisfied with the price. For me, it's not really getting the lowest possible price that matters, but the fun of haggling, and getting what I think is a fair price.

Make it crystal clear that if they cant work on the price, that they'll be getting no sale. For me, I low balled them and offered $750. I told them if they couldnt sell it for that, that I'd take my chances and order one from an unauthorized dealer on the web. They came back with $785, and I thought it was fair. They'll try to say why you should buy from a dealer etc, etc, etc, but I cut them short by telling them I didnt care about all that....LOL

Make a deal, or bye bye. They'll make a deal every time. How good of one is up to you. For me, thats the fun part of shopping:-) Making them sweat a little for my cash.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 312
Registered: Jan-05
Do you believe the only difference between the Yamaha
RXV-650 and 2500 is the power per channel?
====================
Im sorry, I should have addressed this statement more directly.

To further clairify........NO, because there are several differences between those receivers.

How they decode PLIIx isnt one of them though.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 407
Registered: Oct-04
Your most qualitative comparison between units is how they play back Dolby Pro Logic? Personally I've listened to the Dolby DPSs for about 5 minutes total, that was enough to tell me HK's Logic 7 is far superior... At least to my ears.

"Also to suggest that the the DD or DTS output is technically superior between various DVD players in a similar price range is more subjective and placebo effect than anything else."

Hard to notice in good recordings. But older and badly recorded material has 90% less white noise on the Denon versus the Panasonic F65 it replaced. The Panasonic is a $150 player while the Denon is $650. Although they are not really in the same price range there is a definite improvement in all levels of playback with the Denon, even when the function is as simple as a straight transport of a digital signal.

My point is that two receivers may perform exactly same Dolby Prologic I,II,IIx processing, but the output will vary between different levels of equipment due to the other components in play, even when the function is just to process the signal before exporting to a power amp.

 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 321
Registered: Jan-05
So you're telling me a $650 Denons output is cleaner than this model??

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=61237%26item%3D5757661720 %26%26

Why am I not surprised? I thought I made it clear that I was not trying to compare apples to oranges.

I apologize because I didnt notice in your previous post that you were comparing two products at completely different ends of the spectrum. Now that I have realized that, Im not in the least bit surprised that you can hear a cleaner output on your new player. I would never suggest that a 'cheapo' model is equal to the high end market. I thought that was a clear in my previous statement.

Heck, if I believed that, I'd own a $20 Sears DVD player, and power my system with a $150 JCPenney receiver.

I say that tongue in cheek, because I did own a MCS receiver once many, many years ago. BTW, MCS is(or was) JCPenney brand. I have no clue if they even still exist. Anyone know? It was the first receiver that I ever bought, and it was financed with paper route money. :laugh:

Another hilarious and even further off topic comment...........I built my first speaker, and it was a huge massive tower created from raw speaker parts that my dad had laying around the house, and we installed them into a refridgerator box as a cabinet. I used that until I saved up enough pennies to buy real speakers. I will never claim that speaker was equal to Axiom towers..........Heh
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 329
Registered: Jan-05
BTW......saying your old DVD player cost $150 doesnt really say much.

My previous DVD player cost nearly $500, and was only 2 channel DolbyPL.

Blehh.....Great quality Pro Logic though, if that's what you're into.....Heh
 

Paul X
Unregistered guest
I have had the 2500 for about 8 months, I made this choice because I was converting from a traditional stereo to surround sound and I wanted to keep my Vanderstein 2Cs as my mains. The salesman showed me a test comparison with the parameter of all channels driven and the Yamaha power supply showed very little drop off.(which is the ussual culprit when output falls off into all channels)He showed me some units that were better but at $1500 and I was not willing to go there.

I brought it home and used it in 7.1 mode for the past 8 months and was very satisfied. A few weeks ago I got the bug to play so I pulled out my old NAD stand alone Amp (circa 1990) and hooked the Vandersteins to it via the pre amp out on the 2500. The differnce of a dedicted amplifier was very noticable which you would expect and the amp was just sitting in the basement anyway.

I made a few mistakes, I told my wife that we now have 1400 watts of surround sound pleasure, she just shakes her head every time she comes in the room. The other problem is I can't get my oldest son to go home to his own place, I have to throw him out several times a week.

I did have an issue early on with the 2500, they had to resolder the processor chip which was handled under warranty but it put a concern in the back of my mind for the life expectancy of the 2500. (Remeber I'm using speakers I bought in the late 80's and an amp I bought a few years after that. But all in all I am very satisfied with the 2500. Good luck!

 

Paul X
Unregistered guest
Correction-My unit is the 2400
 

RAK
Unregistered guest
Not to change the subject of the difference between the 3805 & 2500 but why not the Pioneer Elite VSX56TXI???? I mean they are all in the same price range. If any one can enlighten me on this subject please! I have no brand preference.
Thanks
 

Unregistered guest
I glad to see such an active discussion on the Denon 3805 vs. anything!
I picked up the 3805 because of the number of video inputs (6 on back, and 1 in the front), but I am currently having an issue with the Zone 2 output (btw, Zone 2 only has composite).

Any help would be appreciated - I want to use Zone 2 composite output to my video capture device, however I cannot seem to get a video/audio signal to show. I have a composite cable from the Zone 2 video out to an input on my VCR (for testing). When I select the Zone2 button on the remote, then select my TV input (which is a satellite receiver signal), I get nothing. When I also hook up the Zone 2 audio outputs, my VCR registers no signal.

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

I will also have to take a harder look at the Yamaha 2500.

Thanks.
 

Unregistered guest
Updated question for all the Denon 2805/3805 users:

Has anyone gotten the audio AND video for Zone 2 to output? If so, how did you do it?

I'm not a complete moron, but the manual sucks and while I'm usually good at poking/proding to figure most things out.

Thanks!
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
To answer RAK:
For two reasons:
1) The Pioneer Elite VSX56TXI is in a higher price range, slightly higher than the Denon 3805 (I think). At the same time though, it probably would compare closer to the 3805 because it has a firewire connection. And yes, you are changing the subject.
2)Because this is a thread for discussing the
Denon 3805 VS the Yamaha 2500.

drconner:
You are changing the subject also. Why not start a thread that asks your questions about the 3805. No offense, I'm just saying you may get your answers faster than waiting for someone to get to the bottom of this thread.

Along this line Paul,(not Paul X) why don't you start a thread on the subject of how much you hate audiophiles. You could title it "Why I hate audiophiles". This way you could get to spell out all of your anger without detracting from the subject of this thread which is the pros and cons of the Denon 3805 and Yamaha 2500.

I'm not sure what you have against audiopiles. (please don't waste our time on this thread explaining) The word audiophile simply means a lover of audio. I am a lover of audio, therefore I am by definition an audiophile. I don't know as much as the experts in electronics but I enjoy learning and I don't find thier input offensive in anyway. I started engaging in this thread hoping to get educated by those who are into all the technical aspects of receivers. By insulting such ones you may have already kept some from contributing the very things that I am hoping to get out of his hread

You happen to be a proud owner of a Yamaha 2500. You happen to love it. That's a score on the Yamaha side of the page. That however in no way entiles you to insult others who have joined in the discusion and happen to have input which they feel to be relevant.

Migrain

PS: To any who are still interested in the discussion,I will post a list of comparisons as soon as I get to my home computer.
 

Unregistered guest
Migrain,

Thanks for the input. I only added to this discussion as there were several posts related to Zone 2 on the Denon.
 

scuttlebutt
Unregistered guest
I have owned both receivers. I can say one thing, if you love music buy the yamaha, if you love movies buy the denon. If you love both buy the yamaha 2500, its $200 cheaper and sounds great. The denon is nice but your paying the extra money for the remote! If you are hung up on the denon remote and don't mind flushing $200 down the crapped buy it!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 379
Registered: Jan-05
scuttle,

Interesting comment....

I virtually exclusively use my 2500 for Movies, and preferred it over the denon. The general concensus has been the other way around, but I wouldnt know since I dont listen to music on that system.

BTW, tonight is movie night!!

I have two new ones to watch.....
'The Incredibles' to watch with the family, and 'the saw' to watch once I send them upstars......:-)
 

Migrain
Unregistered guest
drcronner:
Actually, by saying that the manual for the 3805 sucks, you made a valuable contribution to this discusion. I have read others with the same complaint. Some have replied that the manual is not all that bad, but let's face it, we are not all gifted with a high level tech vocabulary.
Can you tell us what it is about the manual that makes using the 3805 difficult. Also, would you say you are very satisfied with the Denon? Any reliability issues or complaints? Is there anything that you wished it would do, especially compaired to the Yamaha 2500?

Scuddlebutt:
Cool name!!!! You said that you have owned both the Yamaha 2500 and the Denon 3805. My guess is that you owned them for a short time since the 2500 is a relitively new release. Did you happen to notice the manufacturing dates on the back of each unit?

Wich one did you own first? Why did you return it?
Did you own both at the same time for a period? Which model did you end up sticking with or do you a have a different unit alltogether? Are you glad with the choice you made in the end?

What makes you say go with the Denon for movies? Is it because the Denon has more reserve power for surround, noticeable enough to spend the extra dough? I tend to lean towards Paul's choice only because of what one reveiwer said about the Yamahas Cinema DSP especially the Dialog Lift feature and those thoughtfull presence channels that can deepen the front sound feild.

Paul, how was The Incredibles on your new Yammi?!!?

 

Unregistered guest
I have the 3805 and love the thing. I'm pushing 6 matched Mordaunt-Short 912's and two MS 907 (10" subs) with it and the effect is incredible. I also was annoyed that Denon doesn't include the setup mike, but I was able to borrow one from my local retailer. Always helps to get in good with those guys.

For me, the Denon or Yamaha decision was the digital video up-processing which can save you a little money on component connections (but not DVI for your DVD or Cable). Also, Since I also have a DENON DVD-A, SACD player, I was able to connect the two with their proprietary DENON line 3 connection which I must say...is nice.

Oh...I BOUGHT MY MS's before they came out with that "What to buy" feature. Kinda annoyed me. I was thinking that now EVERYONE will have my setup!

Oh...if anyone is thinking about Mordaunt-Short...stop thinking. Buy. Check out their new performance line and be awed.
 

sofakinglazyboy
Unregistered guest
Correction... Its called the DENON LINK 3.

and one other thing Migrain. I loved the dialogue lift feature and presence modes in the 2500, but its designed to assist a Center Channel which I dont have...Im a believer in matched speakers because I listen to music a lot as well as watching movies. Denon's Pure Direct Mode for cd music or my XM radio is really something nice.

I have to confess though, I have never heard a 2500 paired up with my speakers in order to make a proper comparison.

On the comments about the Manual. Yeah. Its a bit difficult. I'm not using the Zone 2 or Zone 3 feature though, so I have not run into that problem. If I were to point out to one specific weakness in the manual it would be its rather skimpy explanation of mode defaults for different sources. Depending on the source, certain sound modes arbitrarily become unavailable and the manual does an astonishing job of being extrodinairily non-commmital on the subject. It kind of shrugs really. I've more or less given up on trying to figure it out and actually have come to view it as a charming idiosyncrasy and I am pleasantly surprised when a new option becomes available.

Anyway, I SERIOUSLY doubt you'e be disappointed with EITHER reciever. You'll probably become a hard fast brand loyalist and speak vociferously about the fine purchase that you made all the while secretly wondering if you should have gotten something else.

For example. Now that the MS performance line is out...I want THEM instead of my classic 912's.

They're so pretty... and new...and I would probably be the only person in all of Indiana to own them.

see? its a disease.
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 383
Registered: Jan-05
the Incredibles????


It was in-freakin-credible......:-)

I blew my first speaker-fuse in 15 years.......LOL

I had to finish the finish the movie minus one front speaker since I havnt bought fuses in so darn long. It's not like I have those things laying around, right??

I spent $1.50 for four-4amp fuses, and I'm set for movies tonight:-)
 

New member
Username: Deeman

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-05
Just out of curiousity, the 2500 does not offer iLINK connectivity, aka IEEE 1394 for digital interfacing with other universal DVD players. The firewire connection allows for complete digital connection and recognition of SACD Surround, DVD-A, etc. Denon offers the D-link which is propriatory for Denon DVD players. Ironically, the latest Yamaha DVD-S2500 DVD-A and SA-CD player MSRP $749.95 has iLINK connection. So, you cannot connect the latest Yamaha universal DVD player with the latest Yamaha receiver...too bad!
 

Silver Member
Username: Paul_ohstbucks

Post Number: 455
Registered: Jan-05
Darrin,
Those that own $900 receivers dont buy $800 DVD players connect to them.

The DVD mentioned is obviously geared to those who own the $4500 XZ9. Sometimes inserting a little common sense helps eliminate such confusion.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kano

Post Number: 437
Registered: Oct-04
My DVD player and receiver both cost $1000
 

Bronze Member
Username: Jbecvar

Post Number: 36
Registered: Mar-05
I have a denon 3910 dvd player and a pioneer vsx 1014 receiver, so explain that one.
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