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Yamaha RXV-2400 -versus- Denon AVR-3803??

 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2004
Any advice out there between these 2 models? I do realize the 3805 is coming soon but I can't really wait another 2 months. Thanks.
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 127
Registered: 12-2003
What speakers do you have? I had the 3803 and it was terrible. Very bright and sibilant. I have not cared for Yamaha receivers for several years and the 2400 has not changed my mind about them.
 

Don
Unregistered guest
I would venture to guess that you have listened to both for yourself and find both acceptable. That being so, does either have a feature or a price that in your mind gives it an edge? My vote goes to the Yamaha.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2004
I have Paradigms...Monitor 7, CC-350, Atoms and Titans. I had an RXV-2092 that I bought in '97 and the power supply died. Rather than sinking ~$300 in parts and labor into it I decided to upgrade. Lots more new sound formats available now since I bought the 2092. Long story on this one.

Anyway, I did find the sound quality between the 2 somewhat comparable but I think the 2400 has a few more sound formats and features that lean me towards it. The fact that the 3805 is coming out and with some of it's new features I've read it tells me Denon is looking to respond to the 2400 because of that.

I also like the Yamaha DSP modes. I have heard Denon strengths are more towards Music and Yamaha Home Theatre but everybody seems to have opinions. Such as "therealelitefan" who doesn't like Yamaha but these things are certainly a matter of preference. The 2400 has gotten pretty rave reviews so I'm leaning towards it.
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2003
James,
While it is true I do not care for Yamaha I would say that the one speaker line that works well with Yamaha is Paradigm. You have a nice Paradigm system so if you like the 2400 go for it. My experience with the 3803 was so bad I just can't recommend it to anyone. As far as reviews go, I don't pay that much attention to the text because ever review I read in the 3 mags I take always love ever piece of equipment they are reviewing. In my 30 plus years of reading these mags I can only think of two really bad reviews, those being on a Bose system in Home Theatre and the Marantz7200 in Sound & Vision.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 6
Registered: 01-2004
therealelitefan,
Just out of curiosity, can you elaborate a little on your bad 3803 experience? I honestly haven't heard much negative feedback on that receiver from 1st hand users so interested in your comments if you're so inclined. Also the 2400 seems to have pretty high accolades from users I've spoken and chatted with. Again, personal preference is a matter of individual taste.

I agree reviews need to be taken with a grain of salt. I work for an electronics manufacturer and we OEM a lot of our products and I've seen the exact same model we OEM get acolades while they bash our brand...and it's basically the same exact product! Certainly seems the advertising $$ has some influence. Don't bite the hand that feeds you I guess.
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 134
Registered: 12-2003
James,
First of all I used to have a Denon 2802 with older Def Tech DR-7 mains. I really liked that combination but wanted to upgrade my system so I figured I would go with the 3803 as it has lots of inputs and a good power supply etc, so I bought one as soon as they came out mail order as none of my local Denon dealers could seem to get ahold of one. When I got it hooked up I was stunned at it's brightness and overwhelming vocal sibilance. My DR-7's were very laid back so that was not the problem. I hooked my 2802 back up and the brightness went away. Also the 3803 is the most user unfriendly receiver I have ever experienced. Fortunatly I was able to sell it and didn't take to much of a beating. I then bought what I should have in the first place, the Elitevsx45 which is a great receiever in every repect. I then went with Monitor Audio speakers which are a perfect match with the Elite. Even though the Elite's blow away Yamaha in most areas since you have Paradigm's the Yamaha is probably a better match because the Elite and Paradigm's are both on the mellow side. Between the 3803 and 2400 I would try the 2400 first but I would consider NAD if their is a dealer in your area. My Paradigm dealer sells Yamaha and NAD and the NAD is definatly better sounding by quite a margain. Good luck.
 

New member
Username: Deepak

Post Number: 4
Registered: 01-2004
i checked out the nads with a 75 watts per speaker dont remember which model. they sound louder than other japanese's brands like the yamahas and Denon. my room is about 25 square meters is the 85 watts going to be enough. i can not go by the specs shown on the cataloges. if u can let me know more. also which type of speakers will be a good matchup with the nads. i have tried the mission with the yamaha 2400 the sound ok but not full and not sure about sound detail when watching movies. thankyou
 

New member
Username: Johnny

Post Number: 59
Registered: 12-2003
Deepak,

I think for the vast majority of people, 85 watts per channel is going to be plenty...especially coming from an NAD. NAD is known for being very conservative in their power ratings. So an NAD that is rated at 85 watts is going to have much more real power than say a Yamaha or Onkyo that is rated at the same level. Your room is not that large either, so you should be fine as long as your speakers are fairly efficient. As far as speakers go, a lot of that depends on what brands you can get in your area. Speakers seem to be much more regionalized than do receivers as far as sales region is concerned. For NAD's, I would recommend either Paradigm or PSB, both of which are Canadian brands and may not be readily available outside of North America. It would probably be more beneficial if you would tell us what brands of speakers are available in your area, and we can go from there.
 

Don
Unregistered guest
Sounds as though we all think, yourself included James, that the Yammie is the way to go for your situation. Now the best advice is to now just take this info and go with it..don't second guess yourself.
 

Lisa France
Unregistered guest
Why am I not surprised he is the first one here bashing those two excellent receivers. I have personally tried the 3803 in my home for 2 months and now own the 1400. I can easily say they are both excellent receivers. The 3803 probably sounded slightly better on the music. But the 1400 also sounds very good. The 1400 does sound better in surround sound. Also it has DPL IIx. This is the only format I listen to in surround sound multi channel and 2 channel. It is by far the best one out there. The remote on the 1400 is also much better. Dont buy a receiver with out it. I got mine for 550.00 as compared to around 850.00 for the 3803. The only difference betwwen the 1400 and the 2400 is is a little more power and surround programs.

Please see my test report of both the 3803 and the 1400 at
http://www.audioreview.com/A-V+Receivers/Yamaha+RX-V1400/PRD_288782_2718crx.aspx
 

New member
Username: Onmedic

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2004
The Yamaha and Paradign (as well as Energy) are a great combination. You will appreciate the YPAO on the 2400, will make perfect system set-up a breeze. Just be sure to set the speakers manually (ie. Small vs. Large) or the system may set them all over the map!

Enjoy!
 

Unregistered guest
James ignore this elite fan guy he'll do anything to disuade you from yamaha. In any event buy whatever sounds good to you "your" ears won't lie to you but people that are biased toward certain equipment may attempt to make other brands look horrible.
 

New member
Username: Onmedic

Post Number: 20
Registered: 01-2004
the elite fan also tries to tell me Pioneer is above all else. I do understand that is his personal opinion, and what he hears and his brain process will unique and each individual here! However, I did get him to admit that Integra is a better unit then Denon and Yamaha, yet a bit pricier. (Better = Overall sound and features vs. 2400 and 3803, but at a higher cost although you should be able to get this Onkyo Upline close to a 3803 dealer price if you shop around!)
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2003
Did you people read at all what I said? I said that since the guy already had Paradigm's that the Yamaha was ok. Some of you have incredibly selective reading skills.
 

Unregistered guest
No elite fan I did read what you said do you remember what you typed a couple of line before that? and almost every other post you've made?
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 140
Registered: 12-2003
I do not wish to argue this point with some of you who only take what you want to and don't read all of what I said to James. I told him that the Yamaha would be ok with his Paradigm's. What more do you people want me to say? I won't lie and tell anyone something I don't believe or know to be untrue. He asked me to elaberate on my experience with the Denon 3803 and I told him my whole sad story with that unit and then mentioned my further experiences with the Elite etc and even said the Yamaha would probably be a better match with his Paradigm's. Some of you people are just unbelievable.
 

Unregistered guest
okay, let Me state what you said and I'm not trying to start an argument but here goes: I have not cared for yamaha recievers for years (and thats fine)"the elites blow away the yamahas" ,"The nad sounds better by quite a margin" . Is that not what you typed? I just told him to ignore you, how are you helping him with comments like that? I'm not trying to judge you. I'm just stating what you typed, Although you did say that the yamaha was a better match for the paradigms, you cannot hide the fact you're biased toward pioneer and that you don't like yamaha. I'm not saying you're wrong but neither can you hide your disdain when talking about yamaha thats all I meant.
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 142
Registered: 12-2003
Ok, I'll buy that as far as it goes. I will also stand buy everything I said. When I said that the Elite's blow away the Yamaha's I was basically refering to the Elite's far better multichannel power output. As far as NAD I would only repeat I have heard several models of both NAD anD Yamaha compared in the same showroom with several Paradigm models over a several year period and sonically the NAD is a better sounding, much more powerful brand. Yamaha has their own nitch in the market and a loyal following and I used to be one of their biggest boosters but their receivers just don't sound like I want a receiver to sound like anymore. Believe me I am sorry to feel this way because I like the fact that Yamaha includes a rec out selector and is very generous when it comes to inputs. Just wish they didn't sound so thin and hollow. Bottom line, if you like Yamaha or any other brand, buy it and enjoy.
 

Unregistered guest
Thats the beauty of having differing opinions though. It doesnt mean that someones right or wrong. I own a yamaha but I havent heard a product that I thought sounded terrible just different. I can honestly say I don't have a bias because no amp or speaker can replace information thats missing in a recording although they can color it to ones own liking though.
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 143
Registered: 12-2003
Your last post makes me wonder how many products you have heard and over what period of time. I have heard many terrible components, the last being the Denon 3803 and two models of speakers from Phase Tech that were beyond terrible. If I do have a biasd it is because of personal experience with a specific products or brand. I have been int this stuff a long time and it hasbeen interesting to see how various manufacturers have developed products in the digital age. I laugh at the products I liked 30 years ago as my tastes have changed. Wonder what the next 20-30 years will bring. I sincerely hope you enjoy your system and get to use it as much as possible.
 

Unregistered guest
All I can tell U is I'll try to list as many as I can remember B&K, KRELL, DENON, PIONEER ,PIONEER ELITE,SONY, SONY ES, YAMAHA, MARANTZ, ONKYO, INTEGRA,ARCAM,HARMON KARDON,MCINTOSH, LEXICON,NAKAMICHI,SUNFIRE,CARVER,KENWOOD,TECHNICHS,MARK LEVISON, ROTEL , AND ADCOM as far as speakers B&W,MARTIN LOGAN,KLIPSCH,REVEL,ENERGY,M&K,INFINITY,MONITOR AUDIO,DEFINITIVE TECH.,MIRAGE,BOSTON ACS.,SONUS FARBER,VIENNA ACCOU.,POLK AUDIO,INFINITY,BOSE,PARADIGM,SONY SSM9'SAND 7'S,NHT,OPTIMUS,ATLANTIC TECH,BIC,CERWIN VEGA ,DCM,MB QUART,JBL,PIONEER ELITE REFERENCE,AND YAMAHA. I would say that occured over about an 8 year period. I realize however thats not a whole lot of equipment. The ones that stick out in my head thogh are: martin logan,sony ssm9's,monitor audio,mirage,atlantic tech, sonus farber,polk audio, and vienna acoustics. I guess you can tell I like whats considered non brite speakers( some people may feel differently about what I said) but I really wouldn't consider the monitors or the sonus's warm but they have an inviting directness about them(difficult to explain) I have to admit I like the martin's and the vienna's the best,just my preference. Trust me I understand completely elitefan, even more than before theirs nothing wrong with your opinion. I guess the reason I can't say I've heard anything terrible is because with certain recordings (I use Holly Cole(Don't smoke in bed) ,Diana Krall, Sade'(lovers Rock),Prince (come),(the symbol),Steely Dan (Asia, 2agstNature),Maxwell(Urban hang sweet),a Bose cd with earth sounds,Miles Davis (Kind of blue, and Sketches of spain)Buena Vista Social Club(any)Red Hot chilli peppers,and DMX.A lot of recordings but I mostly use Holly cole and sade'. Anyway some speakers seem to make certain things stand out better or make the recording sound euphoric(I guess it depends on what camp your in,Tell it like it is or warm and inviting I like a little of both depending on the recording. The problem though ,is that most recordings don't sound very good so I go for speakers that aren't considered brite. I've been into this hobby since I was nine. Watching my father had gotten me interested so I started hooking up his equipment. I hope you're enjoying your system as well elitefan, have a good one!
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2003
Chubby,
You have indeed heard alot of fine equipment which brings to mind a point that I have thought of lately, that being we are all dependent on the dealers in our areas and what they choose to sell. Case in point for me is that I would love to hear the latest speaker models from Snell but I have to travel to the Chicago area to do so which is a whole day trip both ways. Not worth it IMO as I love my Monitor Audio setup anyway. In my area unfortunatly many dealers sell the same brands[mostly Sony and Yamaha] due to name recognition. There are other excellent products around but you have to travel to see them and the dealers only carry limited numbers and models. In this lousy economy of the last 3 years my local dealers just don't stock as much as they did say, 5 to 8 years ago. It's frustrating to say theleast.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 9
Registered: 01-2004
I have read several posts of quality issues with NAD. Is there anything to this...don't beleive everything you read as you know what they say about opinions.

What NAD model(s) should be considered comparable to the Yam. 2400 or the Denon 3803/5??
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 147
Registered: 12-2003
Look at the 753 and 763.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 10
Registered: 01-2004
Sorry to keep pinging...how do you think the NAD would match with my Paradigms? I could probably get the misses to open up the purse strings a little to step up the the cost delta of the 763 but when I started having these speaker problems she immediately told me that if I had to get new speakers the receiver was OUT! She knows me pretty good after 18 years. Thanks.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 11
Registered: 01-2004
Also, I see the NAD's power rating is less than the 2400 but I recall seeing some posts that this is mis-leading (that the Yamaha rating is skewed so not necessarily superior in power). Is this true or can anyone elaborate here?
 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 150
Registered: 12-2003
As I stated earlier I have heard many combinations of NAD and Paradigm compared with Yamaha and Paradigm and both sounded good but the NAD was always better and usually by a wide margain. NAD understates their power ratings by alot and all their units more than meet their ratings with all channels driven while Yamaha [and others] are just the opposite. The 2400 is a good example and has been documented on this site by me and others. This is not to say it's a bad receiver and it's not when paired with Paradigm's. If the NAD models have enough inputs for you then go with them for their superior sonics; if not then the Yamaha is a decent fallback.
 

New member
Username: Hawk

Post Number: 126
Registered: 12-2003
JDG:

I have auditioned Paradigms many times whenver they get in a new model and my local Paradigm dealer sells both Yamaha and NAD, so I have used both. I have to agree with therealelitefan (Dude, get s shorter handle!) that the NAD is a much better match with the Paradigms. He is also correct that Yamahas overstates their power and NAD understates power. I have a 110 wpc x 7 Denon 3803, but a 50 wpc x 5 NAD 742 is audibly louder and cleaner. Go figure.

 

New member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 152
Registered: 12-2003
Hawk,
Sorry about longer handle but some a.hole stole my original on the old format. Go ahead and just call me "elitefan" as usual. Nice to see you back my friend.
 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 12
Registered: 01-2004
Hawk,
Can I ask why you went w/the 3803 over a NAD?
 

New member
Username: Hawk

Post Number: 130
Registered: 12-2003
Elitefan:

I just had to rib ya' a little, good buddy. Thanks--it is nice to be back!

JDG:

I went with the Denon because of the following (in no particular order):

1. Has a Phono input;
2. Has very wide bandwidth through the component video jacks (100 Mhz);
3. Has all of the formats I wanted;
4. Denon reputation;
5. I didn't even know where an NAD dealer was as I had moved to a new city.

After I bought it, I went shopping for speakers. While shopping for new speakers, I stumbled upon a blind testing of four different receivers, and was amazed at how different they sounded. Well, the clear winner was the "lowest powered" least expensive one being tested--an NAD T742. It was more realistic sounding, had greater impact, and when playing DVDs,you could hear more sounds that were either muffled or totally non-existant when played through other receivers. CDs sounding like the performers where actually in the room. I have had my Denon almost a year now and it just is not engaging to listen to. All of the sound is there, or so it seems, but it absolutely does not stir any emotion from me, so I am replacing it.

I get my new NAD next week, I hope.
 

BUCK
Unregistered guest
Hello I'm new to this forum.
I chose this popular thread bcause I'm an owner of a Yamaha 2095 looking to update. I have been reading various threads indicating a "new" sound for Yamahas 1400/2400 and someday the 3400. Yamahas have the reputation for being bright or detailed and I'm wondering if the sound leans more towards warm in the new Yamaha lineup.
I've had a chance to listen to a Pioneer Elite 47tx and I was greatly impressed with its smooth warmth. My chances to go and shop for sound are limited due to the fact I live 100 miles away both Pittsburgh and Cleveland.
For those who would say why bother with Yamaha and buy the Pioneer Elite. It comes down to video up conversion and only the 49txi and the 59txi provide that feature at $4000. I'm ballpark $1500-2000.
Looking forward to chatting about this query.
 

Don
Unregistered guest
Buck, if you need the upconversion then you don't need to ask you question as the Elites are not an option for you. But seriously, I don't consider the upconversion too important anyway (in truth I don't have need for it, but I have never seen it as a 'must have' feature, only a 'that would be nice all other considerations being equal' feature). And the Pioneer elites in that price range while now lacking some gadgets/features compared to the newest Yamahas still have better build and guts in them. I don't think everyone will find the internal difference significant in fact most people won't need the power that Elites, NADs, Rotels, etc. offer, but it's of higher consideration on my list than video upconversion (Now if upconversion was capable of actually improving the original video signal up to component then I would consider it a Holy Grail.:-))

On a side note I am finding myself on this forum more and more lately. Maybe I should register. What should my handle be...
 

Anonymous
 
Lots of good system's out there but I went with the paradigm moniter 7s with pw2200 sub. I have it powered by an old RXV 870 but want to upgrade to the Rxv 3300 or the Rxv2400. Anyone have any information they want to share ? It's a hard choice.
 

Bobby Big Boots
Unregistered guest
Go with the rxv 3300. It's awesome! Lots of power to drive your paradigms. Very heavy receiver. In weight that is.
 

New member
Username: E1kad2

Post Number: 7
Registered: 12-2003
I've auditioned the elite VSX-55Txi model of pioneer and Yamaha's 2400, believe me, the 2400 kicks the elite model. The elite model sucks. I pity those who bought elite models and keep bragging it as far better than Yamaha. Hey, but that's just me...
 

New member
Username: Joe650

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2004
James,
I just ordered the 3803 (PCMall - refirbished). I'm hooking them up to Klipsch speakers. I'll let you know how it turns out. I've been researching receivers for over a year now and for the money the 3803 seems to be a good choice. I don't have any favorites (this will be my first Denon - all others were Sony) and I really can't tell you much about the Yamaha. Pick up a copy of the Sound and Vision 2004 Buyers Guide and do a comparison of the two, Then check them out at a store near by. Honestly the best way to do it is buy the 3803, hook it up and try it out for a few months. If it's not what you wanted sell it on E-bay and move on.
 

jonk
Unregistered guest
I can honestly say that the Denon AVR-3803--with current street prices around $700 or so--is an absolute steal. It is the best built, best sounding, most well-rounded product available at this price point. I just replaced my old Marantz SR8000 with one after looking at the higher-priced Pioneer Elite, NAD, Marantz and Integra models, and I could not be happier.

I've noticed a bit of an anti-Denon bias on this board, and it made me almost reconsider my decision. But I can confirm now from experience that, both on paper and in real-world application, the 3803 is one of the finest receivers available--at any price point.

Happy shopping...
 

Soundsuggestions
Unregistered guest
Wow, I can't believe what I'm reading here boys n Girls. why don't we just drop our pants and see who's got the biggest one..(HA HA) just joking...lets see where do I start,...lets go back to 2001 where I finally upgraded from Dolby Pro logic to Dolby Digital (Wife factor). I decided to buy a Yamaha RXV 800 since I was upgrading from a Yamaha Pro Logic, that only failed on me after 6 faithfull years. my system consisted of Monitor 7's for fronts, cc370 for center, Mini Monitors for the rears and a Ps 1000 to sum it all up. Ok here it is the Yami was aggressive and one dimentional (I'm sorry but that's my opinion) 2 friends of mine had Denons Avr1800 and a 1801 (less featured and considerable less wattage then my Yami) their speaker setup..Titan all around cc270 for center and also a Ps 1000 yet their sound so much more natural, how do I discribe...I couldn't believe it, I had spent so much more money but yet I couln't get the sound that would satisfy me, Ok lets face it everyone's ears are different so go for what you prefer. Anyway to make along story short out whent the Yami and here came a Denon Avr 2802 into my life, and what a difference.. the soundstage comes to life.. what your listening to is detailled sound that does'nt fatigue your ears (I hate bleeding ears) anyways why Am responding to this particular message board... For the Last 4 months I have been spending a considerable amount of time auditioning multiple different manufacturer...reasons...a lot has changed since 2001 lets face it my Denon 2802 doesn't have all the current formats and decoding devices. I have listen to:

Pioneer Elite both 53/55
Yamaha 2400 very disapointed (my opinion)
Marantz 7300/7300ose/8200
Denon 4802r/3803
Onkyo 900/901/801/601
Nad 773/763/762

The results...
the Yamaha, the Pioneers and the Onkyo I find are all laidback (boring sounding) fine hate me all you want thats my opinion..

the Nad...in a class by itself, very detailled but yet so smooth...the only problem the 763 at the price point is only 6.1 if your looking for a 7.1 setup look to the much more expensive 773

the Marantz and the Denon...What can I say I still find the Sound of the Denon more seductive (7300/8200 vs 3803)but very close.

Of all the receiver that I have sampled I have to say the Nad 763/773 blows them all away.
 

Silver Member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 175
Registered: 12-2003
Sound...,
Your post points out a very important factor and that's matching receivers to speakers. While I love the Elite and H/K I would not buy either one if I had a Paradigm system such as yours.You have hit on the best brand for your Paradigms by far IMO, that being the NAD. Congrats on doing a logical, systematic search and posting such a well thoughtout message. Are you planning to buy one of the NAD models? That I did not understand.
 

Soundsuggestions
Unregistered guest
Therealelitefan,

After listening to the above receivers, I did find the Nads (763,773) to be the most natural yet exciting of the others. Now I did say above that the Nad blow all the others away, I think that way a little harsh, I just meant I like them better, lets face it most of these brands being discussed in this discussion are all pretty competitive to one another...my final decision will come after I can listen to the new to be released:

Marantz SR 8400 (out early March)
Denon AVR 3805 (out early March)
Yamaha RXV 3400 (not sure when it is to be out)

As much as I love the Nad 763 and 773 they do lack some of the features that I am looking for, lets face it after spending over $2000 Cdn hopefully that will be it for a while...

Some of the features that I am looking for are and not limited to...

-Dbl IIx (mind you most signals will all be digital soon enough)
-THX
-Front optical (possible Xbox, Digital Camera quick hook ups)
-That automatic calibration system...(Elite,Yamis and the new Denon 3805)

The problem is the 773 is closer to what I'm looking for when it comes to a balance between sound quality and features...but it's around $2500 + 15% tax in Canada...that alone makes the Denon 3805 (net $2000), Marantz 8400 (net $2200) and the Pioneer Elite 55 at $1800 net. makes them all that much more acheivable...

I always say, jump for the highest branch of a tree but if you can't reach it grab one on the way down...see the above receivers

 

New member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 15
Registered: 01-2004
Just wanted to let everyone know since I started this thread that I went for a NAD T773 (Thanks for the tip EliteFan!!). My local NAD dealer let me take a demo T763 home to try it out with my Paradigms and I was extremely satisfied. Truely a matter of personal preference but the sound difference to me with it versus the Yamaha RX-V2400 I had was significant.

The price delta between the 2400 and the T773 was of course significant but fortunately I can swing it and I'm looking for the sound quality for the long haul.

Eventually I'll upgrade my speakers too but for now I found the NAD to be a good match with my Paradigms. I go to pick up my T773 today.

I am just glad to finally arrive at a decision and be comfortable and confident with it.

My recommendation to anybody considering a reciever and/or speaker purchase is listen for yourself and compare. I made the mistake in this reciever search initially by jumping at a brand because it was what I had before (Yamaha RX-V2092). I am glad I was able to rectify it and learned my lesson.

And not dogging any Yamaha owners out there either. If you have one and your happy then great. This is certainly a matter of personal taste, just like food. In my room with my Paradigms and my ears, the difference between the NAD and the 2400 was dramatic. Good luck!
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawk

Post Number: 182
Registered: 12-2003
Soundsuggestions:

I also agree that the NAD sounds better. I have dumped my Denon 3803 and I await delivery of my NAD T753. I have listened to everything $1500 and less and nothing is as satisfying as the NAD to listen to.

However, there is a way to get 7.1 cheaply in the NAD line without buying the T773. Get a T752 and a C270 separate amp. The T752 is set up to process all 7.1 sound formats, and you can add an external two channel amp (such as the C270 which is being closed out at $449 by several dealers) to power your front mains and use the remaining internal amps to run the center and surrounds. Cost of this set-up is ~$1150 ($699 for the 752 and $449 for the C270). FYI.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 17
Registered: 01-2004
Another option is to hook your speakers in series or paralell to the 6th channel. This definitely does NOT give you a genuine 7.1 DISCRETE channel but utilizes the 7 speakers. I did this when I tested mine at home with the T763.

I don't think there is much if any 7.1 discrete media out there anyway...hardly any 6.1 so right now it probably wouldn't be worth the extra investment just to get 7.1. There may be some out there with some unique applications on this but for the most part this is what I have been told and think it should be pretty sound.

Using an external amp down the road when more 7.1 applications are available as you suggest would always be an option.
 

hfx2004
Unregistered guest
I am looking to buy A/V Receiver. i was looking at specs of Denon 3803/5, Yamaha2400, NAD 753 but open to consider others too.
My budget is $1500 and less.

I presently have B&W speakers which i intend to keep.

Appreciate suggestions with regard to models, makes which would be compatible with my B&W speakers.
I thought it would be a good idea to narrow down the models before i go to hear them around.





 

Anonymous
 
Guys, I am a novice to the audio world. Need your Help.

I am interested in 5.1 system, Speakers and Receiver. I have looked at DENON AVR-1804 with Paradigm Monitor 7 (front), Sub DR 8 + center. I have listened to Energy, Definity, Klipsh.

Can somebody help recommend a speaker receiver combination ? (Primaraly music but Homer Theater as well). Appreciate your help.
 

New member
Username: W9cw

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2004
This is an interesting thread. As one who has used a number of receivers since the late '50s (yes, I'm old!), I would like to reflect on my experience with some of the brands. Note: I'm old enough to have owned the "real" Marantz of yesteryear, the old Mac's, old Fisher and Sherwood, etc. - all of these were great components before other companies purchased their brand names.

But, on to the 21st century . . . I've had mixed experience with NAD products. I love their design and sound, but lately their build-quality and long-term reliability is suspect. My first NAD was in the early '80s when they were still built in Japan. I have seen a linear pattern of problems as they moved their production from Japan, to Singapore, and on to other countries. Interestingly, Rotel manufactures their RSX-series of receivers in China (at their own plant, not a contract facility), and their quality is excellent. Except for bells-and-whistles, and some limitations on I/O's, the Rotel RSX-1055 is a superlative receiver, not only to look at, but to listen to.

The Denon AVR-3803 is an excellent receiver and still manufactured by Denon in Japan, unlike their lower-end products. The Yamaha, manufactured in Malaysia, is also a good one, with very decent build-quality and tremendous features for the price. The newer generation Yamaha's have excellent dynamic headroom in the power supply and amp department. In fact, the 1400/2400 series have almost the same level (in decibels) of dynamic headroom as the NAD or Rotel. The final amp section of any amplifier is limited in output power, dependent on what speaker impedance it's looking into, by the design of the amp stage and the dynamic range capability of the power supply. The 1400/2400 have an excellent power supply section.

The Denon AVR-3803, without comparing the features/bells-and-whistles, is on paper and in audio performance an excellent product. One area that Denon needs to improve is ergonomics (user-friendliness), especially with their front panel switching and remote. BTW . . I would like to know where to find a -3803 at a "street price" of $700. Given Denon's very strict warranty policy, the best price I've seen from an authorized dealer is still over $900, typically $999. Buy a Denon from an unauthorized internet or brick-and-mortar dealer, and you're on your own - no Denon factory warranty.

The Yamaha 1400/2400 is much easier to use from the front panel, and much more intuitive than the Denon. Its remote is an improvement over the Denon's, but it could use some improvement as well. Probably the best remotes on "mainstream" equipment come from Onkyo. And, one of the best remotes I've seen is with the Rotel RSX-1055 and -1065.

Yamaha does not use Burr/Brown A/D converters as does the AVR-3803 and higher-end Denon products. However, Yamaha's D/A and other chips (main CPU, DSP CPU, etc.) are excellent. Why? Denon is a small company compared to the megalith of Yamaha. Yamaha, due to its corporate size and diversity, has the ability to manufacture its own CPU's, DSP engines, D/A converters, etc. at a very high quality level, and at economies of scale (read less costly). Denon, NAD, etc. must purchase on the open market many of thier components. Sometimes, as with Yamaha, their corporate size and diversity positively trickle down into many of their mainstrean products. For example, the fan system for their heatsink design on their latest receivers was actually done by thier engineering staff for their motorcycle division. These people are super experienced on designing low-noise systems and ducting. Another example of corporate diversity that many small companies can't hope to match.

Since we are all ethusiasts or audiophiles (otherwise we wouldn't be reading this, right!), we tend to be overly concerned with specs and others aspects of equipment. I say, just use the gear and find what's best for you. If something looks nice to you, and sounds nice, buy it! Don't worry about what others may say, because in the end what's important is if you personally like the product.
 

Silver Member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 202
Registered: 12-2003
Don,
Does 43.5 watts into 8 ohms at .1% distortion with 5 channels driven sound like a good power supply for a receiver billed as 120 x7 ? To me it does not. To say that the 2400 has as much headroom as a NAD or Rotel is simply not true. It may be a fine receiver in many respects but not in multichannel power. I do agree with your conclusion about buying what we like personally and find your post interesting and nice to see an "old timer" like me as this site is populated by many who have no perspective on the history of these various companies and their products and changes etc. I long for the good old days when Yamaha really did make good mainstream products and maybe the 1400 and 2400 are a step in the right direction but the last 15 years or so of Yamaha has been a total disappointment for someone who loved their great products of the late 70's or so. My 1978 CA-810 integrated amp kicks the crap out of anything they have made under $2000 in 12-15 years. Keep posting, we need more older posters on this board.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 31
Registered: 01-2004
Don et al,

I hope I don't end up being another complainer in the future about NAD since I now proudly own one.

I am not sure what empirical data you have to show NAD's quality degrading but I would sure like to see some facts. I am genuinely intersted in some data and not meaning to come off the wrong way. I would like to see some genuine quality data on ALL brands that isn't tainted with advertising dollars or what not.

I have heard the very same negative talk about Japanese companies from others (they have cheapened their power supplies over the past 2 decades for example). And these statements have come from some very reliable people I know.

I just see so much of people bashing this and that on these forums and while I know some folks are having genuine problems, I question how to formulate this into information which is genuine and usable to guide decisions.

I made a post on a similar subject about and automobile forum which told me either I have had a fortunate experience with my car that I've had for 2-1/2 years, the others have been less fortunate than I, both, or they are just full of it.

Anyway, as far as country of manufacture I will say this. I personally work for a company that now manufactures in China. I have manufactured products in several countries over the past 15 years and by far, China has the most disciplined workers I have ever observed.

I rememeber a few decades ago we used to associate Japan with cheap labor and poor quality. Now we use them for a benchmark of quality manufacturing.

So what I think (and have learned) is more important than the country of manufacture is the company's (1) design and (2) their processes and support for manufacturing that they have transferred to the country of origin. Unless you work or have worked for one of these companies, this type of info is unforunately proprietary so we just don't know.

Virtually all manufacturing has moved to these 3rd world countries so now it is needed for survival. Remember when Mexico was the first big move for US companies? Now Mexico can't compete with China. If you don't move you don't compete. Don't compete and your business is sunk. Consumers are so used to cheap electronics now there is no turning back.

You can even see that the trend is moving away from countries like Korea, Taiwan, etc. to China for cost reasons. I have personally experienced this.

So I would actually QUESTION a product that is currently manufactured in Japan versus one that is manufactured in China for example, WHEN THEY ARE COMPAREABLY SPEC'D and FEATURED. They absolutely MUST get their cost from somewhere to compete. So if they're not getting it in their labor, where are they getting it? I am not saying Denon is sub standard by any means since they still manufacture in Japan, but I know the facts in this business. If their comparable model to Yamaha in features and price is made in Japan, this would personally lean me to Yamaha. And again, not meaning to bash Denon at all because I just don't know. But I do know about why manufacturing has moved to China. I have a Denon DVD-2200 which is an awesome unit but I think it was manufactured in Singapore, not Japan. Maybe irrelevant but I'll verify that.

Anyway, there is so much flying around about this brand and that, where this brand is manufactured and that, I had to chime in (and I started this mess at least on this thread :0). It is all very confusing as I started down this path looking for some advice.

From what my EARS tell me I got good advice. Time will tell I guess if the quality is there coupled with the sound.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 32
Registered: 01-2004
...and btw my NAD T773 was built in China...
 

New member
Username: Joe650

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2004
Don Allen
You can find the 3803 at $500 to $600 - but refirbished. I called Denon on this and the rep said almost everyone that works for Denon has a refirbished unit for the most obvious reason - they're less expensive than the NIB units. As long as the site selling the unit is an authorized Denon dealer Denon will give you a 90 day warranty on the refirbished unit. Usually you can get an extended 2 year warranty for an additional cost. I just bought one through PCMall.com - With the 2 year warranty, tax and shipping (which they give you a $30 mail-in rebate on the shipping) I paid $610. I will warn you that it is on backorder so if you have patience it's not a bad way to go. Also check out a site called Dakmart.com - they are authorized Denon dealers who sell refirbished for around $700.
 

New member
Username: W9cw

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2004
JDG,

I didn't join this group to raise my or anyone's else's blood pressure, because after all it's only a hobby. But, I wanted to have a change to empart my 47 years of experience in hi-fi. I'm actually a fan of NAD, and have been since the early '80s. I bought my first Rotel in 1977 and my first NAD in 1981. For what its worth, both were manufactured in Japan. I currently own 5 NAD components, and 2 NAD receivers.

Our (former) NAD dealer chose not to continue to carry the product because the large number of problems and returns in the past couple of years. Note: Another local dealer has now picked up NAD just a couple of months ago. Both of these dealers are long-time high-end stereo shops. I've known the ex-NAD dealer's owner since 1976, when he became the first real high-end dealer in our area. Since he is a small, but very focused hi-fi dealer, he must keep his customers happy. What differentiates the small shops (Boutiques, if you will) is the customer service they offer to their demographic. This is the most improtant item they have to offer, as compared to the big-box stores. Once his customers start having problems with a certain product line, the small shops have to address this head on. Of course, this is only one example and hard fact to back up my concern.

One must be objective on all of this. I've worked in manufacturing, on the engineering end, since 1968. And, I certainly can appreciate the financial pressures these companies face when trying to bring a product to market at a certain price point. The better companies own their manufacturing companies, whether it is in China, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. However, some companies choose to use contract manufacturers, and this is generally where the QC and build-quality problem arises.

I wish you luck with your new NAD. For what it's worth, I am considering a new T753, RSX-1055/1056, or maybe even a Marantz!

And, thanks to Joe650 for the heads up on the refurbished Denon AVR-3803 sources.
 

New member
Username: Bsprtsgrp

Post Number: 2
Registered: 02-2004
What receiver would match up best with Boston Acoustic VR950's? I've been looking at the 2400 and the 3803 but had not considered the Elite's, NAD, or the Marantz.
 

Silver Member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 205
Registered: 12-2003
Chris,
I would not only consider Elite, NAD, and Marantz I would choose from those brands for your Bostons. Better options sonically with BA's than others. Good luck.
 

New member
Username: Bsprtsgrp

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2004
Choose from which brands? Not quite understanding your response. Thanks
 

Silver Member
Username: Elitefan1

Post Number: 208
Registered: 12-2003
Choose from Elite, NAD,Marantz and I should have added H/K.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Buckeyeshine

Post Number: 37
Registered: 01-2004
Don,
I appreciate the input and understand your perspective. My BP is fine by the way so didn't mean to raise anybody else's if I did. Just giving some of my personal input which is what this is all about.

Contract Manufacturing is one of the fastest growing segments out there so becoming harder to avoid. A lot of it's growth is through acquisitions which can be dangerous. Another cost benefit in the business. I have seen and worked with exceptional ones that actually do better than their original manufacturers did (Really!) and some miserable ones.

Unfortunately most consumers aren't privy to this information. NAD may have a bad manufacturer, a bad support structure, or not, or who knows what. I have no idea. I have heard many folks complain here about a design flaw in their components with humm.

I don't know what is fact or fiction but to hear people say NAD has a design flaw which has been carried on down through their generations of the T7xx seems unfathomable to me. If NAD is doing so they absolutely deserve the rap they are getting but I can tell you as you probably know, that a company's key focus on quality is warranty reduction. Warranty returns and repair cost them big $$ not to mention unhappy customers which can result in lost future sales.

To have customers returning units for a humm problem down through the product generations and to not address it, I just find that difficult to beleive a reputable audio manufacturer would ignore a prevalent issue as such. Their business is after all audio so they certainly have the engineering means to resolve a humm problem in design.

Like has been said here, we more often read about people's problems and issues here than their accolades so it can lead to some skewed perspectives.

All that aside, I respect and value your input...especially with so many years of insight in the business to fall back on.
 

Bronze Member
Username: E1kad2

Post Number: 16
Registered: 12-2003
Chris,

Just a recommendation, Never on Pioneer Elite models. The sound sucks and too costly when compared with other receivers.
 

New member
Username: Lawcpt

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2004
I am just putting together a HT system and need advice on a receiver. I am using 4 Vienna Acoustics Haydns + the Theatro center channel. I have listened to the Denon 3803, the Yamaha RX-V2400, and the NAD T752. The Denon and the NAD sounded great with a slight edge going to the NAD, but I have read so many negative comments about reliability issues with the NADs that I am more than a little hesitant to go that way. Any advice and/or suggestions? Thanks!
 

New member
Username: Lawcpt

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2004
I also remembered that I had listened to the Rotel 1055, but not with my Viennas. They were hooked up to B&Ws. This receiver sounded nice too. From my readings of some of the postings there are receivers that match up particularly well with certain speakers. Any feelings on which one would go better with Vienna Acoustics? I chose these speakers because they had a much warmer sound to them. I want to listen to music as well as movies.
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