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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 38 Registered: Mar-04 | Some where down the line I would like to add more power to the amp section of my set-up as I will be upgrading to some speakers that could use more power. Right now I have the Arcam AVR300, which is no slouch of an AVR and has decent wattage but I would like to add more power in 2-channel listening and not necessarily for watching movies, I can only watch them so loud. For the future my dealer suggested to add a 7 channel amp and later on replace the AVR with a Pre-Amp as he knows how I think but this would be more expensive than just adding 2 channel power amp. Would it be more beneficial to go pre/pro or would using my AVR300 as a pre-amp be more than capable? Any thoughts would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9586 Registered: Dec-04 | DM, if you are considering future speakers with very low effiency, then yes, more power would be in order. However, if you would consider more efficient speakers, you Arcam would be just fine. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12045 Registered: May-04 | . If you can only listen so loud and the Arcam has "decent" wattage, whajja expect to gain from more watts? |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 39 Registered: Mar-04 | Nuck, Here are the specs of the speakers I will be getting: Frequency Response: 32 Hz - 43 KHz Sensitivity (1W@1M): 89 dB Nominal Impedance: 6 Ohms Maximum S.P.L (Per pair in room): 111 dBA Power Handling (RMS): 150 W Recommended Amplifier Requirements (RMS):40 - 150W |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 40 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, I can only listen to movies so loud, stereo is another story. More watts for those speakers means I would be maximizing the potential of the speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9587 Registered: Dec-04 | Without being short, DM, rsatings for speakers really mean squat. These figures do not address the load that the speakers will present. You might want to look a little further and see minimum impedence @ frequency, as well as the + or- phase shift under load. Those values will tell how much amp is required to drive them, not just wattage. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12047 Registered: May-04 | . "More watts for those speakers means I would be maximizing the potential of the speakers." I still don't understand. Why are you not maximizing the "potential" of the speakers with your current amplifier? It's not generally the amount of "watts" that go into the speaker but rather the quality of the signal. If you only change the speakers, there is a good likelyhood you'll not increase the quality without improving the source first. Feeding the same signal from the AVR300 isn't likely to change much either. To reach a given SPL (loudness) the speakers will require the same amount of "watts" no matter the amplifier. Doubling the loudness level in the room typically requires ten times as much "wattage". Doubling the actual wattage won't gain you much in terms of a real world loudness increase unless you're constantly clipping the lower powered amplifier. If you're constantly clipping the amplifier, you should probably be looking at a higher sensitivity speaker. As Nuck suggests, the provided specs on your speakers are not very helpful. They do not suggest how difficult the speaker will be to drive. But at 89dB @ 1 watt input, if you want lots of volume, you should be looking for a speaker with another three dB higher sensitivity. Is higher volume the only reason you're thinking about an amplifier? What quality change do you expect or want? What else has your dealer said about this? What speakers are you considering? What amplifier have you been considering? . |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1013 Registered: Jun-07 | Your Arcam is a great A/V receiver. With real world specs. It has plenty of power for your speakers. In terms of playing your movies/music loud, a power amp is not going to help you. Where I can see a two channel power amp being a benefit to you is that it takes the load from the A/V receiver off the fronts, leaving it just to power the center and rears. This could "deepen" the sound stage while watching movies. But will only benefit your system during multi-channel movies, not so much for two channel material. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 41 Registered: Mar-04 | Nuck, Just looking at ways of improving my 2 channel listening and how to get to that next level? I know the Arcam AVR300 is a very good receiver and it should be for $2k plus. If adding an external amplifier would not benefit me in this aspect then it was me thinking wrong. The dealer actually suggested changing the source, a NAD C542 cd player and moving to an Arcam FMJ CD36, an expensive move for a potentially not so big of improvement. I felt that changing the speakers would give me the biggest improvement, which would be moving from Monitor Audio RS6's & RSLCR to the GS20's & GSLCR? |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 42 Registered: Mar-04 | Pevious message was meant for Jan & Nuck!!! |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1032 Registered: May-06 | The dealer isn't looking for you to spend money needlessly Darren. The Arcam FMH CD36 could add synergy to your system which IMO is a worthy investment and may possibly be a huge improvement. See if you can demo the unit for a Sunday - Monday audition in your house. If you are thinking about "potentially not so big of improvement." then what do you think you risk by adding more watts. More watts is expensive to take things to the next level of where you are at. I understand the intention, but unless you are adding quality with those watts you are better off working with the source, again, IMO. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 14 Registered: Oct-07 | If I remember correctly, that AVR can be used to biamp with the zone 2 amps. Look in the manual. You can try that for free (or more cables - if your speakers are set up for it) and see if it does anything for you in 2 channel listening. If you like it you can get something from Niles (or other) to switch from HT to two channel easily. Most of the stuff I've read about Arcam states that it sounds a bit underpowered until you biamp. I have no idea if that has any basis in fact. You can also try using the internal DACs on the Arcam, if you aren't already. Another simple change to see if it does anything for you. These guys are right, source is king. |
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Bronze Member Username: SnapcatPost Number: 15 Registered: Oct-07 | Also, those Monitor RS6's are listed as 91 db on their website. If you want louder, then changing to 89 db is the wrong direction. If you want a better quality 2 channel down the road, then plan for better source, power, then speakers. Source first. My 2 cents. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2632 Registered: Sep-04 | Darren, 89db and 6 ohms seems like a piece of cake to me. And as mentioned above here you can biamp the speakers with 4 of the AVR300's channels, which would equate to 200wpc and more than the speakers could cope with. I do the same at the more elevated FMJ level but I have good reason - my speakers are 85db/w/m and 4 ohm. With just 2 channels, the sound suffered but with 4 channels in use the control is better. Your speakers are much easier to drive from what I can tell. I wouldn't say that Arcam always sounds underpowered until biamped. That's stretching things. In fact there is an uncluttered clean-ness to the sound of the Arcam when a single channel is used with a speaker. Incidentally, if you decide you really must have more power for the main speakers, Arcam's FMJ P1 monoblocks are seriously good value in my opinion. However, I agree with your dealer that a change of source would probably be the better bet. The FMJ36 is a good machine, although there are others in the same ballpark such as the Naim CD5i, Rega Saturn, Creek Destiny, Naim CD5x and one or two from your side of the pond (Bryston, Classe? Simaudio, and especially Ayre) which should also be considered. Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 43 Registered: Mar-04 | Mike & Frank, Thanks for the input! My dealer is wanting a system balance and the cd player is the weakest link for sure so I see where he is coming from. Would it not make a bigger difference to change the speakers first moving from the Monitor Audio RS6's & RSLCR to the GS20's & GSLCR, then upgrade the cd player? I plan on doing both but I may only be able to do one or the other this year. If the source is the way to go the brands he carries are NAD, Cambridge Audio, Arcam, Musical Fidelity, Rega, any recommendations, I would like to keep it under $2000(CDN)? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1033 Registered: Jun-07 | Rega Apollo/Saturn. Listen to both. All the brands you mentioned make good cd players. I would say for your system stay away from the NAD players unless you listen to something from the Masters Series. Their classic cd players are great for the money but you need something better. With your setup I wouldn't recommend anything less than the Rega Apollo or Cambridge 740. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2641 Registered: Sep-04 | The RS6 is a mid-price monitor which should provide a reasonable amount of fidelity. In my view, the C542 is not in the same ballpark. Far better to be heavy on the source end than the speaker end because the better speakers will ruthlessly reveal the inadequacies of the source. |
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Silver Member Username: CcdoggyPost Number: 182 Registered: Jul-06 | I have a Arcam avr300 also and am driving a pair of NHT classic threes with a 86db sensitivity. I am more of a movie buff and the arcam gets these speakers louder then i would ever really need them to either watch a movie or listed to music. Also remember that the arcam outputs more power in just 2 channel then multichannel. its like 125 at 8 ohms in 2 channel. I am sure you dont need more power. anyways the auditory difference between 100 and 150 watts is all of like 1.5db. Also if you really like turning it up I would argue that its better to amp limit the speakers so that you dont over drive/over excursion the drivers and blow them fast. compared to mild clipping which you would hear and turn down. |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 44 Registered: Mar-04 | I appreciate all the responses. So before I go and do any upgrading, the consensus seems to be to change the source before the speakers or should it be the other way around? I'm trying to create system balance and I'm very comfortable with the Arcam AVR300, so if it is the source would the Arcam FMJ CD36 be worth the extra $400 over the Arcam CD192 which is in th DIVA range with the AVR300? My dealer seems to be offering no discount on these models so were looking at $2200 vs. $1800. I'm going to try and see if he'll take 10% off? |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9624 Registered: Dec-04 | By all means try to barter with the dealer, DM. Are these the players you want to look at? I dunno. But building from the source up is the way to go, IMHO. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12095 Registered: May-04 | . https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/435932.html |
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Bronze Member Username: DarrenmcWinnipeg, Manitoba Canada Post Number: 45 Registered: Mar-04 | Nuck, There other players I could look at like the Cambridge Audio 740C or 840C, which are in my price range. We don't have many specialty audio shops here so my choices are limited. I don't think anyone carries Naim, Creek Destiny, Ayre, maybe Classe and Simaudio? So naturally I gravitate to the Arcam as I have the AVR300 receiver. Are there better cd players out there, yes but I don't want ot spend more than $2kCDN. Thanks Jan for the link! |
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Gold Member Username: NuckPost Number: 9627 Registered: Dec-04 | DM, the Arcam is the easy choice to go with your very nice 300, BUT the Cambridge is doing quite well, tyvm. There are a couple of others from the 'peg on here as well. Forgot their names. And the usual Apollo, which I love. Not too much time with the Classe players for me, in fact. Just the trans/dac that I have. They are overpriced new. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2658 Registered: Sep-04 | Darren The FMJ36 is better value for money here in the UK than the CD192. I find the CD192 a bit of a disappointment and I even prefer the DV137 DVD player for music! That said, I would urge you to look around for a better CD player. Even the Rega Apollo at far less money than the 192 would be better in my view. The 192 is just plain uninspiring, sorry. It's the one item in Arcam's range where I wouldn't go. Regards, Frank. |