Proper intergrate for Totems (i know discussed before)
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New member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 1 Registered: Apr-08 | Hi everyone, I realize that this topic has been discussed in the past, however I have made a few conclusions of which I would like some opinions upon. After sending some emails back and through to a few stores & even totem themselves... it appears that the Totem line, specifically the Arros that I own and the Hawks that I plan on buying shortly do have a strange power requirement. Being inefficient, running rated @ mid 80db I was also told that the impedance drive really varies even at the rated 4ohms... Being that with the cabinet and crossover design attribute further even to the Dynaudio/peerless etc.. drivers chosen So the recommendations from Totem appear to been: Naim 5I Simaudio I3 Ayre AX-7 Plinius 9100 and ultimately going to a full Bi-Amping dual monoblock with a passive pre-amp is ideal... again pointing more towards Plinius or Byston gear On the tube side of things... I was told that the Arros and any of the Hawks/Forrest/Model 1's require significant current to bold well, or else resulting in higher though harmonic, distortions I was contemplaiting going to a setup utilizing a local company called "Grant Fidelity" so I'll do a demo sometime and see how they work out Otherwise, basically I'm looking at a higher end setup by either Jolida/Conrad Johnson or Rogue (Rogue being the best alternative) Presently my setup is: Totem Arros Conrad Johnson CAV-50 Jolida JD100A stage 1 mods Taralabs RSC Prime 1000 Volex Power Cables 17504 Outlaw Audio PCA IC's The sound is fabulous with this setup at low volume registers, however whenever pushed, definitely the dynamics compress significantly So more power to give me the dynamic headroom would be ideal, which points to the CAV-50 being the weakest part of my system I can tell, as I have an old Luxman LV103 that I kept around as it's phono stage is quite good, and it powers the Arros with a bit sharper and resolved sound yet with more power. However the CAV in triode does sing far sweeter. P.S. Anyone ever seen the new Yamaha A-s2000 line? Apparently they are getting back into the game, I'll post another new topic to shed some light into the specs of this amp, but it is apparently a "winner" though no official reviews have been performed yet. |
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New member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 3 Registered: Apr-08 | Oh & if a "tube" is recommended I usually prefer EL34s to KT88s or 300Bs In fact I'm a fan of the Mullards, and have heard a setup from Grant Fidelity which uses primarily EL34s and 12AX7s for the input stage I'm a electro harmonics guy usually, but do like rolling to others such as Mullards, Solvtec and Svtlana |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2864 Registered: Sep-04 | Paul, If you like the sound of tubes so much why not choose a different speaker which has a more sympathetic impedance and sensitivity? Most Totems work best with high current delivery amplifiers which usually means solid state. If you want to stick with tubes, buy yourself a pair of Klipsch, Impulse, Audio Note, anything with more than 90db/w/m (Focal even!). Then you'll have your pick of tube amps... Regards, Frank. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 836 Registered: Feb-07 | Focal seems to be coming up an awful lot lately. Never heard 'em. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 221 Registered: Jul-07 | I partly agree with Frank. If tubes are your thing, why build around your speakers. If you've already got the amp you love, change out your speakers. That being said, don't judge an amps compatibility with speakers based on the speakers sensitivity rating. It means very little in the first place, and is probably misstated by the manufacturer in the second. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2623 Registered: May-05 | The SS integrateds you mentioned are very good integrateds. I'd add Arcam and a Bryston B60 to that list. The B60 can be found second hand below your budget. If you're really into tube integrateds, research the Manley Stingray. I believe you can get one second for your budget, and it probably should be more than sufficient to drive the Arros. If the Stingray doesn't work and you still want tubes, maybe a hybrid integrated? |
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New member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 4 Registered: Apr-08 | I must admit that I had never made the intent to go with Tube gear The first time I had a listen to the Totems was with a Myriad/Rega Saturn combo and it really was "music" to my ears And even with my current equipment Nothing I find has the tonality, imaging, spacial depth and refined top end like this speaker in it's price range and size That alone sold me on these, as the profile was plesant to the "other half" and to me, they were one of the most musical speakers I've heard. That being said though, it is likely better to go with SS as I already do have a Jolida JD100A and my setup is possibly warmer than it should be. Just, I'm a bit silly and I find it hard to justify the $$$$ around a solid stage amp, when these beautiful glowing tube amps can be had within the same price rnage. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2624 Registered: May-05 | A problem with the Arros is that while they're inexpensive, they require expensive amplification to shine. That doesn't mean huge amounts of power, it means a very stable and clean power supply. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 837 Registered: Feb-07 | How do you think the Arros would fare with my Bryston monos? They're rated at 120 watts, but I guess at 4 ohms they could peak around 160. I considered buying the Arros before, but I was concerned that the room I wanted to put them in would to large of an area for them. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6679 Registered: Feb-05 | You have plenty of power David. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 222 Registered: Jul-07 | I think with the Arros though, trying to fill too large a room could be a problem. Even with the horsepower to drive them, they aren't at their best trying to fill a large room. That's just my experience with them though. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 838 Registered: Feb-07 | That's what I had heard, Chris. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6680 Registered: Feb-05 | Agreed...but if I had the scratch I'd have a pair just for the office or late night listeng in the main system....that kind of speaker. |
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Bronze Member Username: BetamaxCanada Post Number: 32 Registered: May-07 | Hey Stu, I just bought a B60R. I'm looking forward to hooking it up, but it could be a couple of weeks before I get it (depends on customs bottleneck). Would it have enough power to drive the Hawks or Model Ones? I live in a condo, so I can't really crank up the volume anyway. That's part of the reason I decided to get the B60 and sell my NAD 162/272 combo: I'd like something with slightly more clarity, and I don't really need the power of the 272 as I never get past 1/4 volume. I tend to do my close listening on headphones, and I've read that the B60 is great for phones. I've never auditioned one, but I've been impressed with other Brystons, so I'm taking a chance. I'll hang on to my B&W 602's for a while (i.e. till my wife gets over me buying the B60), but I'm thinking I'll probably buy Totems when I eventually upgrade. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2625 Registered: May-05 | Frank, Post your questions in my Bryston B60 thread in the integrated amps section. I've got a bunch of insight, but don't want to cut it short or hijack this thread. I'll be back sometime tomorrow. Running on about 9 hours sleep total in 3 nights. |
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New member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 5 Registered: Apr-08 | I've had an intresting day... I've hit up a couple audio places and each and every have came to a common conclusion that Totems are a speaker of virtue, however requiring the supporting electronics to make them sing. As Stu mentioned, they just are demanding to having proper clean current running through them to drive them to their potential. I talked to a Non-Bias'd cable designer who happened to be at a store I was at. Boy was this guy a walking encyclopedia... He went into all the secrets of Hi-Fi and how essentially once you reach a certain level of performance, everything comes down to flavor... Whether you are particular to the fairly neutral B&Ws or like a more musical reference such as a setup utialzing Sonus Faber Everything comes down to tonal accuracy, pace, resolution, imaging and wha tI think is most imporant Transparency. Once you reach a level of speakers that can reproduce those reqiurements, whether typical dynamic, horn, ribbon or electrostatic... it really becomes all preference When it comes down to power & cable, it again is simular, however the ideal is to find equipment to suit your power demands to provide the "dyanmica headroom" and most importantly find the most transparent way to power! The less the better? In alot of ways Transparency is "goal" You want to be able to optimize the potential of "2" things Your source & your speakers So ultimately the lest amount of drivers you require, the better. The more drivers, the more cross-overs and the more manufactorying accuracy is required to match the drivers. Speakers such as Paradigm, and other tall towers have a tenancy to lose the sence of "emersion" Sure the studio 6's are fantastically quick, image well, and are tonally accurate But when you hear the crash symbols, you can register where the speakers are located and which part of the tower is doing the work. Another mention is the myth regarding cables. This person, though hand builds his cables, is a person who does not belive in companies whom offer multiple lines of compentancy within their product. Ultimately the more pure the "base metals" are, the better the flow of electrons. Once found, whether the cable was made through a Cryo (frozen) technique, which is quite common, the most important parts are: 1. Choosing the correct cable guage to deliver the adiqute current levels 2. The termination, and particuarally the soider chosen to make the termination (if so chosen) Whether you choose Spades, WBT or Banana's, either a top choice silver soider is ideal, due to a lower flux compound. However if you can crimp, do it! Banana's generally have better contact areas, which results in less impedance. So yes everything plays a factor, however ultimately you want to be able to choose your cables and power to ultimatelly remain as transparent as possible to optimize the potential of your source & speakers. The recommendations for mine, remains simular to the the mentioned above, however a newly added is the 840A cambridge, due to it's linear neutality. So: Naim I5 Bryston B100 Ayre AX7 Cambridge 840A Simaudio i3 of which of the above, the Ayre & Cambridge might be best for "solid state" When it comes down to tubes... is wheter the mating of what you think is musical to your ears.. Problem is now you're adding further factors, as tube rolling is again another nieche that I might just move away from. I was proven that my favorite tubes (Mullards, in the 12AX7, KT88 and EL34s) do not all fit all well. In one case, I had a listen to audio space's KT88 beauty with their stockers (I think which are electro harmonics) and it beat the pants off of the same setup utilizing RCA NOS and Mullards However in other systems, such as my Conrad and Rogue amps, the Mullards are premier in them. Ugh, all fun times |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 223 Registered: Jul-07 | Sounds like you had quite a chat. It can get complicated if you let it. But really, it's just a matter of finding something that meets your objectives....how you want the music to be presented. Not that it matters much, but in your list of Solid State amps above, I would not be anything in the Cambridge line above Sim Moon I-3. But that's just my ears. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1244 Registered: May-06 | Hey Vinge, you weren't up in Calgary, Alberta in the last couple of days or so were you? |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2869 Registered: Sep-04 | In my opinion you're way off the mark for drive. The Forests need an amlpifier in their price bracket or better. In the case of Naim, we're talking about the Naim SuperNAIT ($4500 or so). The Bryston B100 might be able to do it, but you'd have to hear it with your speakers before deciding. The Simaudio Moon i-3 is similar in power and drive to the Naim Nait5i so not in the right ballpark I think. Worth a listen but not really got the nuts for it probably. I don't know the Ayre, but by all accounts it is a very capable amplifier - it may be worth a look. The Cambridge Audio is not in the right ballpark - not enough drive and not enough quality. In my view of course...  |
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New member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 9 Registered: Apr-08 | I for some silly reason am still contemplating tube setups as I have heard these speakers on not only my CAV, but also with a Jolida 502 KT88 integrate. However, most of the KT88s I know of, when ran in Triode, still do not provide the "tube" sound that is possible out of EL34s. Frank, if possible and I did open another thread, explain how the differences of root mean squared is measured differently between push/pull ab vs. class A? I was "told" that a 10 watt Class A amp, running 300B output tubes has enough "balls" or torque to drive my speakers... I'm a skeptic, but I guess the only way to know is to demo it. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2886 Registered: Sep-04 | Yeah right...no |
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Bronze Member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 11 Registered: Apr-08 | Intresting... so I managed to Pawn off my CAV-50 for about the price I paid a few days ago, and pulled out my old Amp, a Luxman LV-103 60wpc hybrid amp... Dusted her off, opened it up and replaced the input tubes with some NOS 6CG7 Tung Sols... and whether people think it's snake oil or not, it sounded quite good. Unfortunately I never did mod the connectors on the back, so my Tara's bananas are just squeezed into where the spade poles should be placed... but it still sounded surprisingly good This is the first time I've heard the Lux with my Tara Labs RSC prime 1000s, and what I found different than the CAV was, more low end punch, resolution and I think depth to the imaging. What I lost, was that smooth midrange, but gained again is more bottom end and resolution... Not necessarily a loss However, after talking to my friend's Dad who is an electrician who gave me this amp in the first place, mentioned that the amp is definitely not designed for hard driving 4 ohm loads, which likely will result in heat and distortion at higher listening levels Going back to the whole "tube" thing, as ultimately the tube is what provides the voltage to power the speakers, the transformer is the most important part of the amplifier. Based upon the years of experience... he concluded that Bob Carver's silver series of tube hybrid amps, are what he thinks was one of the most revolutionary designs, and utilized some of the best circuitry he's seen in a long while. Too bad those amps are long gone and hard to fine. |
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Gold Member Username: Frank_abelaBerkshire UK Post Number: 2899 Registered: Sep-04 | hmmm, Remember what Jan said about voltage - it's the potential to do work, not the actual work itself. Voltage is like sitting at the top of a cliff. You have the potential to fall a long way, but you won't as long as there is infinite resistance (the cliff) holding you up there. Of course once you step off, the energy displayed is immense. This is the equivalent of current. If you can control it (ie - with a parachute), you do a whole heap of workand enjoy the experience. If you don't it's all over very quickly... So, an EL34 can maintain the same volts but the current delivery is lower than a KT88 which is why the KT88 is a more powerful output device. At least, as far as I know (Jan?). Regards, Frank. |
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Bronze Member Username: R3cc0sCalgary, Alberta Canada Post Number: 18 Registered: Apr-08 | I picked up a traditional KT-88 based Chinese Amp from Grant Fidelity. www.grantfidelity.com It's the A-88 model, a tube intergrate/dual mono design utilizing Shuguang grade 6 tubes 4 x KT88-98 Output 4 x 6N7S Driver 2 x 12AX7 Pre-Amp Half the tubes run off of each circuit comrpising of 2 Output Transformers 2 Power Transformers Tweaked to Ian Grant's specifications with power transformers for our 110v market. Power: 32wpc Triode/65 wpc Pentode (UL) off of 8 ohms (with 4ohm outputs as well) How does it sound? Everything that I finally wanted my system to. How does it sound? Everything that I finally wanted my system to. Like the CAV, this amp in Triode retains sweet tube warmth. Whats improved? Spacial Imaging in both Width & Depth. Resolution and detail Bass - Punchier, more visceral and far better controlled Effortless power even in Triode. In pentode, you lose some warmth and stage, but you gain more resolution and solid state sound. Even more power This amp really brings out my Totem Arros. Those inefficient speakers really needed power to bring the "best" out of them, and this A-88 does everything I want and fits the bill. My present setup: Totem Arro (& Hawks but prefer Arro) RSC Prime 1000 Bi-wired 8ft runs A-88 Grant Fidelity w/ stock Shuguang grade 6 tubes running on Grant Fidelity PC 1.5 power cord Eichmann eXpress 6 series 2 interconnects Jolida JD100A stage 1 mods w/ Electro Harmonics Gold 12AX7s also running on Grants PC 1.5 power cord. My system is now sweet, resolved and transparent My subjective tastes. Oh & Ian Grant's PC 1.5 power cords are out of this world. they are 16awg inside a nice shielded skin and they have outperformed everything I've tried, though just a fraction of the price. Most noticeable was running the cord on my Jolida, brining out all sorts of nuances and harmonics that just weren't there. Cheers! p.s. compared to what I remeber of the Audiospace 3.1 & Jolida 502 This amp easily keeps in pace if not out exceeds what I heard and saw (build) from Jolida and right on par with Audio Space for 1/3 the cost |
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