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| Hello All, After reading hundreds of messages on this board, I thought the Denon (3803)is not as good as the Yamaha (2400) based simply on the responses on here. So I went to my local store tonight to compare the two because I was really liking the Kef Q series speakers. They have great clarity for the price.... BUT as I listened to the two, I noticed with the Yamaha, there was no oomph to the speaker when listening to anything with a real bass line. When I flipped it back to the Denon, there was a much broader range with similiar clarity. Was it possible that the 2400 wasn't set up correctly? It had almost no low end to the music at all... After listening to Both, the Denon I thought sounded better with those speakers. I then switched to some Klipsch speakers that were similiarly priced to the Q7s and they were very full speakers, but did not have near the clarity. They pumped out the bass lines, but the highs suffered greatly. They sounded very similarly between the two receivers though, not nearly as different as the Kefs did. I have only heard the XQ-5 series Kefs hooked up to a Denon 3803, and they rocked through the entire range with that set up, but those are pretty darn expensive speakers... about twice what I can afford. Does anyone have any explanation for the above phenomenon? Any recommendations for speakers on the above two receivers? I need speakers for between 2500 and 3000... and obviously a receiver for about 1000. Finally: a little about the room: huge room, 18x18 with 20 ft ceilings, I am currently about 80/20 movies to music and the music I do listen to is punk/hard rock/and my wife loves the 80s. All suggestions are greatly appreciated |
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Hawk | Johnnyess: I have the Denon 3803 and I have been among its leading critics on this forum. However, that said, I still think it is better than the Yamahas, so I don't think it was a question of the Yamaha not being set up properly. Part of the reason this board has not had many Denon advocates is that these things go in waves--when a product is new, a lot of people are really jazzed by it and register their excitement here. This board was covered with people crowing about the 3803 last winter when it was new, but they are gone now. You are seeing some Yamaha devotees posting now because they have a new generation out, but it will swing back when the new Denons come out. Early this week, I was at my local Yamaha dealer--I have a good relationship with the manager there as we enjoy just talking about equipment and music together. He told me that even Yamaha knows that Denon is out-performing them and it is a real concern to Yamaha engineers--he has a lot of communications from Yamaha to its dealers reflecting this concern. Biggest problem they have is that they are tied to using in-house fabricated DSPs and DACs, which are not as good as some others out there (i.e., Crystal and Cirrus Logic). Now, they do believe with their newest generation, the 1400, 2400 and 3400, have finally caught up with Denon, but they have not passed them. BTW, this guy is not a Denon dealer, so he has no incentive to tell me these things. He carries Yamaha because it is the #1 brand in HT sound, and a lot of units go out the door without him having to work very hard. So, I think what you heard was about right--the Denon should sound better than the Yamaha. As for speakers, forget the Klipsch. I have never cared much for their horn tweeters, which I do not believe are a clean as many other designs. As for KEFs, there is unfortunately a big jump in quality between the Q series and the XQs, the latter of which is very expensive. What you heard from the XQ-5s is not what you will hear from the Q-7s, unfortunately. You seem to want floorstanding speakers--are you looking for just front speakers or do you want a full 5.1 system? Let me suggest a system that will sound much better, for both movies and your music, and stay within your budget: NAD 762 receiver--priced in the same range as the Denon and the Yamaha, it is cleaner and clearer than either one. Has a more natural sound and much more power for your large room, too (figure a typical mass market receiver has about half ot the power that the manufacturer says it has, but the NAD will actually exceed its power rating). I will be replacing my Denon with an NAD soon, so I have confirmed what I am saying. Can be had for $899 right now from several on-line dealers. NHT ST-4 speakers--Very accurate, natural sounding floorstanding speaker that is very clean and yet can really rock. Beautiful for music and movies. Has a 1" dome tweeter, 6.5" mid/bass driver and an 8" side-firing woofer for low bass. Comes extremely close to the KEF XQ-5s in sound quality, but at half the price. I have priced them for under $800 a pair from Kief's (www.kiefs.com). A killer speaker for the money. NHT SC-2 Center Speaker--MSRP of $400, can be had for $325 from Kief's. It is excellent. NHT SB-3s for rear surrounds--MSRP of $600/pr., can be had for $450/pr. Sonically matched to the ST-4s, too, as it has the same tweeter and mid/woofer drivers. So good, I often recommend them for mains for people who want a bookshelf design. Hsu Research VTF-2 sub-woofer: Available online from Hsu, it cost only $499 and is better than almost any other sub out there for under a grand. Plenty powerful enough for your room, too. Hope this helps. |
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| Hawk, Thank you for such a greatly detailed reply! I have a friend who works at the dealer of the Kefs, which is why I am considering them.... he says he can hook me up at about 50% of normal cost (we were college buddies). So, I was actually thinking it would be worth my while to spend a couple hundred extra and get the XQ-5s for about 750 each.... but given the fact that I have not been impressed by the Kef surrounds, and don't want bookshelf speakers for the rear since I have to mount them on the wall, I will definitely go take a listen to the NHT and Nads before I make a decision. Its hard to start from scratch on this stuff. My current HT is so old, I don't even have digital inputs on my receiver... and I can never ever hear the center channel without really cranking the volume (big room, satellite speakers) |
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| Hello, don't know if anyone will read this, but today I went and listened to the NAD 762 with JM Labs 700 Series speakers (Center CC700S 450 ea, Main 726S 1400/pair, Rear 705s 350/pair and the SW700S Sub) I must say that these are the best sounding speakers I have heard for less than 3000 for the entire setup. Granted, I have yet to go listen to NHTs (on tomorrow's things to do list) but musically, they are some of the best valued speakers I have heard, they blew the doors off the Kef Q series and the DM Series B&Ws I've listened to. Has anyone else listed to these? I am having a hard time understanding why they aren't more popular. Please advise |
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Hawk | Johnnyess: JMlabs does not have the best distribution in North America, thus they can be hard to find. Many dealers are not happy with the North American distributor (the speaker company is French) and word gets around. As their name is not widely recognizable, they are changing their name to Focal/JMlabs with the intention of just becoming Focal in the not too distant future. Focal is the name of the parent company that produces raw speaker drivers and is well known among audio circles for making quality drivers. |
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| How does the coda series , specifically coda 70 compare with Q series, i heard, codas have been largely ignored due to higher range Q and aboves. |
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New member Username: BlackcabbagePost Number: 1 Registered: 12-2003 | I A/B'd the Denon 3803 and Yamaha 2400, and there was no comparison when it came to punch, clarity, oomph, or whatever you want to call it. The Denon sounded rich, while the Yamaha sounded flat (in a bad way) and lifeless. I also noted that the EQ section in the 3803 allowed much more control over the sound than the Yamaha. Someone had mentioned the quality of the DACs (which are Burr-Brown in the 3803), and that may be part of it as well, but from my perspective, the major difference is in the EQ section and thus, the pre-amp in the Denon seems to be outperforming the Yamaha. By a mile I might add. I am not an "audiophile," but I am a professional musician and record producer (see www.gnappyfunk.com). I know what good, compelling sound is, and the Denon has it. My only regret with the Denon is that it doesn't have convenience jacks on the front for hooking up your cam-corder. Other than that, it's a no brainer. The Denon is the clear winner. In a last minute pang of buyer's guilt, I opted for the slightly less expensive 2803 at check-out, and picked up the new Denon universal DVD/CD player as well - the 2500. I've decided that I'm going to take the 2803 back and upgrade to the 3803, but it isn't because the 2803 sounds bad. To the contrary. The DAC's are different than the 3803, but presumably, the pre-amp section is identical. I have it hooked-up to my 25 year old Polks, and the sound is amazing. I've never been sure of the model of these speakers - I got them through a friend as a hand-me-down. The seriel number seems to indicate that they may be a "12B" - but I've never found any info on any such speaker. Anyway, they are incredible - the most life-like speakers I've ever heard. I don't know what happened to that company, as every Polk I've heard since sounds terrible, but these old horses are the deal. The towers are massive - loaded with 1 12" speakers each, two 8" mids and a seperate, open tweeter section on top, with an active crossover. Combined with the Denon, the sound is amazing for music and movies. Warm, yet very detailed. Listening to Miles Davis at the Plugged Nickle, or Brad Meldhau at the Vanguard - you're there. Joe Lovano's Nonet "54th Street" is punchy and alive. A CD I love - Ahmad Jamal "Live in Paris" - is absolutely gorgeous through this system. It was recordeed in a concert hall - very wet (as opposed to most US live jazz recordings in small rooms like the Village Vanguard which sound intimate, but dry). Just beautiful. No comment on surround as I have not yet purchased rear speakers. But for stereo, the 3803 works very well. Anyway - my two cents worth. To my ears, the Denon killed the Yamaha, and in my set-up, I have been really, really impressed with the sound. |
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New member Username: EdisonPost Number: 46 Registered: 12-2003 | Johnny, You can also pick an upscale denon model used on ebay for $250. I prefer the sound of NAD - This place has good price on NAD dvd-receiver combo. https://dmc-electronics.com/Default.htm I would go with the kef Qs - especially since you get half off. They are a respected name in speakers, and sound good (I have an older model I love). |