Archive through April 21, 2008
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 23 Registered: Apr-08 | MR, I don't know how having confidence in the product I sell is "arrogant". I wouldn't sell it if I didn't believe it was as good as what the competition has to offer. And I do believe that is better than *most* things. I know in advance not everyone will love it or even respect it, but that's life. Arrogance is believing your stuff is better than everything else. I often tell people "I can't sell all the best gear, I can only sell some of it". Integrated amps are one of NAD's fortes. And have nothing but respect for Bryston (making fun of the power and transformer size was really only to get a rise out of people - there's rarely a need for massive power or over the top transformers and one of my favorite amps is a big wuss compared to the B60) Keep in mind that PRaT in a speaker can be easily achieved with some cone resonance in the upper midrange and a mid bass peak. Voila, PRaT. Never mind that it's screwed up in time and phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 24 Registered: Apr-08 | Loc, I'd put in more like NAD = VW and Audi, compared to a Mercedes, a BMW and a Porsche, the Masters being Audi. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 25 Registered: Apr-08 | David, I fully support the rationale of buying home built stuff! Of course, things are what they are, so I'd far rather sell American (including Canadian or Mexican) built in China than sell European or Japanese stuff largely built there as well. Although I've had my flings with them, I've never found them satisfying in the end and keep coming back to what we do. European gear, even when it is good, is way overpriced for my ears, except for Cambridge or Arcam on some products and maybe one or two others. I also have often considered selling Bryston, but didn't feel there was enough demand for it - most people here flat out need better speakers and room acoustics before they need to spend more money on amp. The funny thing is, I think really old NAD has that "PRaT" sound, but isn't nearly as refined as the current stuff. So, some people's punchy, dynamic, fast, etc sound is just something completely different to many of us. It's the sound we're trying to ditch, not get into. I think the sound should flow naturally from an amp, not come over and slap you in the face, unless the music absolutely calls for it. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10069 Registered: Dec-04 | I think John is Wiley...again...but with better medication. |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 857 Registered: Feb-07 | I was waiting for that... |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6707 Registered: Feb-05 | Unfortunately so was I... |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1391 Registered: Jun-07 | He makes some good points though. Unlike Wiley. Stick around John, the audio world is just one big opinion, and different opinions are welcome in my book. Dave- I am with you all the way on buying stuff made in Canada if possible. Keep er in the economy EH!? |
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Silver Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 858 Registered: Feb-07 | You got that right, Nick. Although I'm more than happy to buy stuff made in the good ole USA or Mexico. I guess you could say I'm a supporter of NAFTA. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 26 Registered: Apr-08 | What's a "Wiley"?  |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6708 Registered: Feb-05 | Don't ask, it just gets folks around here worked up... |
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Silver Member Username: JawPost Number: 201 Registered: Mar-06 | ...as in Coyote. JA, you expressed yourself perfectly. To me, you done good. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12468 Registered: May-04 | . "Keep in mind that PRaT in a speaker can be easily achieved with some cone resonance in the upper midrange and a mid bass peak. Voila, PRaT. Never mind that it's screwed up in time and phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms." Keep in mind you don't have that right, JA. Cone resonance doesn't affect "time" within a single driver. If you can explain how a speaker can get "hundreds or thousands of degrees" out of electrical phase, I'd kinda like to hear that. And what's screwed up by "quite a few ms"? What's that mean? What's it do to the sound? And how does a designer accomplish it? I have always felt people who deny PRaT and it's value are people who've never really heard it. They might think they have because someone once said, "That's PRaT", but they never heard it. Which is OK but they shouldn't be telling me what I should be hearing. Certainly not when their argument is a measurement plot. JA - Your nose is growing because you are either not telling the truth or you don't know the truth. How old are you, JA? A speaker and an amplifier are like a pair of pants. You can't put on only one leg and expect not to get laughed at. They work together and they sound together. I will admit the "watts are cheap" school of speaker design has turned out crap that cannot let a decent amplifier sound good. But this line you want to sell me is just stupid. There are classic speakers such as the Quad 57's, Altec Voice of the Theatres, Lowthers, Magnepans, Spendors, Rogers, etc. that have been good enough for the last half century or longer in some cases to always be better than the amplifier they are connected to. Hook them to a good amp and they sound great. Twenty years later hook them to a better amp and they still sound better. Same with classic amplifiers. Keep them for fifty years and they'll always sound better with a better speaker. The "no 'audiophile' has speakers good enough to resolve all of the transparency of any amplifier" is pure BS and you're pretty full of that, JA. But you probably got some measurements and a DBT you can pull out to prove me wrong. A DBT?!!! You're gonna bet people money on a DBT? Man, that's the kinda "hey, you got balls big enough to challenge me" BS I expect to hear from some punk on the South Side of Chicago. That's cheap BS, JA, that's cheap BS. Stu - You got the square wave thing all wrong. "The M3's 10hz square wave barely goes above 1, and below -1. The B60's goes almost to +2 and -2." The only thing the numbers on the side indicate is scale. It's a relative thing and not what you're looking at in a square wave. A square wave test indicates the amplfier's rise time and tendency to ringing. If the leading edge of the wave is straight and stops at the top of the sqaure wave, that's all you're concerned with as far as rise time goes. If the leading edge is tilted toward the right or curved rather than straight, the amplifier does not exhibit good rise time. The rise should stop abruptly and shift to a 90° angle at the top. If it shoots past the top of the square and then settles down to complete the square, the amplifier exhibits overshoot. Most amplifiers that overshoot the mark also ring which will be a squiggly line rather than a square top. The downside of the square wave should always be straight down. Here's some overshoot and slight ringing; http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/1006sonic/index4.html This is not a good looking square wave; http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/805cia/index4.html Kinda shaky; http://stereophile.com/solidpoweramps/304adcom/index4.html What square waves looked like fifty years ago; http://stereophile.com/integratedamps/606eico/index4.html The 10kHz here is what tube amps often look like due to the output transformers; http://stereophile.com/tubepoweramps/306yamamoto/index3.html Not much of this has anything to do really with how these amplifiers sound. Anybody who tries selling you something because it measures like something more expensive should be selling washing machines. . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 224 Registered: Mar-04 | "BS I expect to hear from some punk on the South Side of Chicago". Wow, Jan you spent time on the south side of Chicago? Small world indeed, I see where you acquired and honed your interpersonal skills. Forgive me Reichsmarshall Vinge. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12469 Registered: May-04 | . Wrong side of the tracks, son. Don't make me get Vito to straighten this out. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 27 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, I didn't say cone resonance affects time. I said it affects the perception of "PRaT" and is an easy way of faking it. Kevlar, for instance. I guess you haven't ever seen an impulse response of a speaker either. I've heard lots of systems that are supposed to have "PRaT", but they just sound bright and unnatural to me. The speakers you list, except maybe *seriously updated* 57s are just old, crappy speakers that, while maybe sounding better than most old speakers, still are a nowhere near today's better stuff, no matter what you put in front of them. You're a funny guy. I'm still young enough to hear well. You? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 233 Registered: Jul-07 | "The speakers you list, except maybe *seriously updated* 57s are just old, crappy speakers that, while maybe sounding better than most old speakers, still are a nowhere near today's better stuff, no matter what you put in front of them." There are many, many respected people in the audio business and just plain music fans that would disagree with that statement. But I get the feeling you're not particularly interested in keeping your argument to anything other than a series of absolutes, when, of course, in audio there are very few. Albuquerque huh. What shop ? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 225 Registered: Mar-04 | I for one would like to welcome the addition of Mr. Ashman to the board. His perspective while at odds with most on the board has revitalized this thread. I do not understand the ad hominem attacks? Jimmy Carter can meet with hamas so why not take that as an example. If he prefers the M3 to the B60 than so be it, and if you do not that is ok too. Perhaps we can learn something from each other. I have a feeling that before this thread ends shall all be holding hands and singing kumbaya. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 28 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, fortunately for most everyone here, i'm probably just visiting. I spend too much time on forums as is, just ask my wife! I just thought this thread was irresistible and it's been a lot of fun  I think people have just lost sight of the whole goal here, worrying more about brand names and the implications of those names rather than music. The whole concept of "I listened to it at some store with some speakers in some room and liked it more THEREFORE it is BETTER" concept is the exact type of illogical, emotional thinking that allows Bose to be the biggest speaker company in the world. Just because you hear a difference, doesn't make it better. Just because you *think* you hear a difference doesn't mean you did. Most of high-end is a combination of exceptional marketing and a magic act. And 95% of all your sound is your speakers, your room acoustics and your setup. I know a lot of people that have really expensive amps and horrible sound. Fortunately, it wasn't my fault. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12471 Registered: May-04 | . . "Keep in mind that PRaT in a speaker can be easily achieved with some cone resonance in the upper midrange and a mid bass peak. Voila, PRaT. Never mind that it's screwed up in time and phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms." "I didn't say cone resonance affects time." ? I guess I read your post differently than you intended. You appeared to be implying that B followed A in your first post. But now you've got me curious how time is involved in your conception of PRaT. You do know what "PRaT" stands for I assume. You tend to ignore questions that don't come with a glib reply. How about explaining that "thousands of degrees out of phase" remark? How's that possible? And the "ms" thing is still murky. Some help? I'm sure you've explained this to your customers hundreds if not thousands of times. I wouldn't be too cocky about who can hear what. Like all of us, after age 25 hearing starts to go. But, if someone in their fifties wanders into your store and says he's looking for soemthing with PRaT, you might want to use that "still hear well" line on him. It's a winner, punk. Fortunately for me, I've never had a problem hearing PRaT while at age 44 you've never heard it once. Makes me wonder what you do hear? All I've seen so far is selling NAD by measurements. You don't know much about audio if you think those speakers suck. You must be one of those salesmen who knows what the reps have told you to say, throw in some thousands of degrees out of phase junk and, as you say, Voila! You say you sold your Krell. I would have too. If things you don't like are "bright and unnatural", I can see why you landed on NAD. You never did tell me whether your shop sells anything better than NAD. . |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 29 Registered: Apr-08 | Punk? Hah. So logical and well spoken. I guess i'm not old enough to look back at old, technologically impaired speakers as though they are competitive with today's stuff. Yamaha 1000s would take out most of those pretty handily and even those are dated sounding. 12000 posts and you don't know how to read an impulse response graph? Never heard of group delay? Most speakers have huge time/phase delays in them. So, talking about their 'PRaT' is kind of funny. Amplifiers, on the other hand, don't. So saying one time/phase accurate amp has 'PRaT' and another doesn't is also ridiculous. A Quad ESL might be able to have PRaT because it is so time coherent it can reproduce a square wave at small volumes, but what you call 'PRaT" is just coloration to me. As for other brands, i've sold a lot of things more expensive than NAD, but I'm not sure how much better sounding any of it was than the new Masters stuff. Of course, C-J and YBA stuff was excellent but it doesn't have that "PRaTTy" sound either, so i'm sure you hear it as 'lacking'. There is already enough expensive electronics on the used market at reasonable prices, I don't need to add more to the pool. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 30 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, Chris I largely agree. I think there are some absolutes in audio, but when it comes to taste, there certainly aren't. That's what i'm trying to argue. One person, or even a few saying "I like it better, therefore it's better" doesn't make it so. Because you'll get one or even a few others saying the opposite, canceling it out. You can say that there are preponderances of evidence, but if one product is clearly better than another, it will also measure clearly better. And even then, people will often prefer the one that measures poorly. Just like the sound of "PRaT" does with music, the people that like that sound seem to like to beat it over other people like a weapon. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 226 Registered: Mar-04 | I know what you're thinking. "Did he fire six shots or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this excitement I kind of lost track myself. But being as this is a .44 Magnum, the most powerful handgun in the world, and would blow your head clean off, you've got to ask yourself a question: Do I feel lucky? Well, do ya, punk? |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 660 Registered: Jan-05 | Lol, lol, lol! My next thread is going to be "Modern Marantz sound vs old Marantz sound". "Like all of us, after age 25 hearing starts to go."... So I only have 6 years left of good hearing. Now thats dismall. -I think John is Wiley...again...but with better medication. -I was waiting for that... -Unfortunately so was I... -What's a "Wiley"? I couldn't help laughing at that one. Right now I should be revising for my exams coming up May/June. Instead I spend all my time thinking about audio, reading stuff, buying stuff, this forum and getting bollocked by the porters for having it too loud. If I fail this year at university I'm off to work for a hifi dealer. Maybe even set my own shop up! Hmm the possibilities. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 235 Registered: Jul-07 | "but if one product is clearly better than another, it will also measure clearly better." Again with the absolutes. Again, there are a great number of people that would disagree with you. Many tube amps will not measure as well some SS amps, but some prefer them. Does that mean they prefer an inferior sound ? No. It's really about making music. Sure, measurements are important, and a critical tool in designing and developing an amp, speakers, or anything else. However I don't believe you can point to any one measurement and say it proves superiority. Or the size of the transformers, or the brand of caps, make of drivers, etc, etc. The beauty is in the sum of the parts, the overall execution, and the optimal mating of components. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12474 Registered: May-04 | . "reproduce a square wave" ROTFLMAO Nothing on the thousands of degrees out of phase, eh? No "ms" explanation? Yamaha 1000's!!!!!! Geezobeezo! You got a lot o' BS in you and you just can't help but let it spill out, eh, JA? Try again on the phase and ms stuff. This is getting good. kinda funny really . |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 32 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, that's the whole point. People disagree about sound. It's like saying "I like blondes, therefore blondes are better than brunettes". And someone else says "you're high, brunettes are clearly better because I like them". Or arguing over which is 'better', Pepsi or Coke, McDonald's burgers or Burger King burgers. If one product were clearly better, *everyone* would agree on it! In order to be truly better, then you have to be scientifically better and that doesn't happen that often as even then there are so many variables. You can't have 100 different products that are all "better" simultaneously! All you have in that case is "I like it better", not "better". If everyone on the planet lines up and says "this sounds better", then we have a winner, everyone else can go out of business, call it a day and get a job at 7/11. You can prefer any product you want, regardless of how it measures, but you can't say that it is therefore intrinsically better. People have such frail egos. None of the stuff that I own is "the best" or even necessarily "better" except to me, I picked it because I liked it. When I recommend an NAD AVR to someone, it's not because it's "the best sounding receiver". No, it's because it's designed well, has a modular chassis w/card slots, is extremely easy to use and setup, has oodles of power, a nice remote, an room correction system with improved response curves and I know it really well so I can talk them through most any issues over the phone. And then they tell me whether any of that is even important to them or is worth it. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 33 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, Most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift, but some are worse, which is obvious in the impulse response. And much of the bass lags several *milliseconds* (for those that don't understand the scientific abbreviation), which is why subwoofers are often pegged by auto setup algorithms as being 10 or more feet further away than they really are. I may be getting funny, but you're getting pathetic! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 236 Registered: Jul-07 | "You can prefer any product you want, regardless of how it measures, but you can't say that it is therefore intrinsically better. " Then stop saying it. Go through your posts and count how many times you've said "this is" or words to that effect. Absolutes. You can't argue on both sides of the issue. If you're really saying that it's all about preference, then you've picked an odd way to make that point. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 34 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, aside from my dramatized Yamaha quip, could you give me an example or two? I don't recall saying anything was intrinsically better anywhere. And I certainly didn't say "it's all about preference". If you want to get actually better sound, you can't design simply to preference, you have to build a product that is scientifically, measurably better. Now, how to measure that is a bit sketchy, but it's better than having people fight over the subjective part. What I did say that, if you are going to claim something actually "sounds better", then the measurements should reflect it. It's hard to say that an amp with really bizarre measurements has better "PRaT" and therefore is "better". Likewise, you can't just say "this car is better" unless it is better in almost every way you can measure a car. Fortunately, people are more reasonable about cars and car reviews reflect that and they don't start making up new words or talk about intangible BS. Of course, audio attracts very strange people for some reason. |
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Gold Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 6712 Registered: Feb-05 | Actually they do John. Not only do cars talk about and show measurements they also talk about how it feels to drive the car...purely subjective. Just as there are enough different auto designs to suit nearly every driver there also enough different designs in audio to suit nearly all subjective preferences. As all audio gear is some way colored, that is to say, varies in some way from the original source (if anyone really knows what that was and how many variables play into it's sound) all we as consumers are doing is choosing the color that best suits our taste...not really much more complicated than that. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12475 Registered: May-04 | . "Most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift but some are worse, which is obvious in the impulse response." "Hundreds of phase shift"? Hundreds of what? ms's? (milliseconds - for those that don't understand the scientific abbreviation) How do "most speakers" get hundreds of phase shift? What causes this? How many degrees can those other worser speakers get? Thousands? Really? How's that happen and why is that worse? What sorts of phase shifts are these? Acoustic? Mechanical? Electrical? Moon? Or all of the above? Or none of the above? Got a clue? Want to buy a vowel? "And much of the bass lags several *milliseconds* (for those that don't understand the scientific abbreviation)" Lags what milliseconds? Something's leading but much of the bass is lagging? But only "much" of the bass? Not all of the bass? Does much of the bass lag more if the driver is bigger or smaller? What part lags and what part leads? How do they decide who leads and who lags? Do they have like guy bass and gal bass and the guy bass always leads? But all of the bass is coming from one driver? Which way does it move when it lags? "which is why subwoofers are often pegged by auto setup algorithms as being 10 or more feet further away than they really are." Never used anything like an algorithm to set up my speakers. I just listen. So I'll give you this one. Any more on time getting messed with in PRaT? Any more on what PRaT stands for? If you do have more, then I'll move on to how PRaT can make a speaker "bright and unnatural". "Bright" ain't nowhere near what affects PRaT. So how's that happen? MS's? Right? While we're at it,what's "bright"? What's it mean? Did you pick the Yamaha 100- because it's "natural sounding"? It says so right in its name, you know? It a Yamaha NS-1000. The "NS" stands for "natural sound". So it doesn't have any PRaT I assume? Pathetic? I'd have to agree, someone here's pathetic. JA you got words. That's all, just words and a few concepts. But the words don't go with the concepts and the words alone don't make any sense. I'd rather be my age with my hearing and know what I know than to be your age and still not know jackshit. I suspect if you stick around I'm going to spend my days going, "Aww no, not again!" "It's hard to say that an amp with really bizarre measurements has better "PRaT" and therefore is "better"." All you keep talking about is measurements, JA. So like what measurements are important - other than several phases and ms's? "When I recommend an NAD AVR to someone, it's not because it's "the best sounding receiver". No, it's because it's designed well, has a modular chassis w/card slots, is extremely easy to use and setup, has oodles of power, a nice remote, an room correction system with improved response curves and I know it really well so I can talk them through most any issues over the phone. And then they tell me whether any of that is even important to them or is worth it. When do you let them listen? . |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 35 Registered: Apr-08 | Art, yes but there's a big difference. You don't have people arguing that a car is faster if the data doesn't support it. They might say that it "feels faster, yet isn't". And the subjective impressions are far more consistent than in audio. If car reviews were like audio reviews, a company would put nicer hubcaps or platinum spark plugs on the "Tercel II SE" and reviewers would go nuts about how much better it performs with zero measurable improvement. And they'd say that the Tercel II SE is clearly better than cars half the price and almost, but not quite as good as cars costing twice as much.  |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 227 Registered: Mar-04 | What we need is a uniter, someone to bring us together. Anybody have Obama's number? |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 36 Registered: Apr-08 | Degrees, Jan, degrees. Have you heard of a crossover? Do you know anything about speakers? Or do you just move air through your lips?  I let people "listen" all the time, but tell me, are you one of those magical people that can listen through different speakers in a different room, with different cables, a different CD player and even different music and tell me how my amplifier sounds? If you think so, it sure explains a lot. A lot of people surprisingly think they can. I think if I stick around, you'll be one frustrated "big fish" in your little pond as someone might challenge you on your BS. I think I'd rather be my age, be able to hear still, and not sound like a frustrated old guy who thinks he knows way more than he does about audio, desperately hoping people will listen to his stories around the internet fire. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 37 Registered: Apr-08 | Obama? But, uhhhh, I come from one of those small PA towns where we desperately cling to our guns and religion and hate other people for no reason........... |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 228 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, you do sound a little uptight. I recommend Yoga, I am getting back into it (well I purchased a book at least). Or maybe yogurt, it's loaded with probiotics: Yogurt May Help Prevent Osteoporosis, Yogurt May Reduce the Risk of High Blood Pressure, Yogurt With Active Cultures Helps the Gut, Yogurt With Active Cultures May Discourage Vaginal Infections (does this one apply?), Yogurt May Help You Feel Fuller. Well, you can't say I haven't tried to help. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 237 Registered: Jul-07 | " could you give me an example or two?" Okey doke. "Rega is a bit eccentric, but Naim is downright daffy. Linn? Goodness, talk about cheap, low grade electronics sprinkled with pixie dust." "57s are just old, crappy speakers that, while maybe sounding better than most old speakers, still are a nowhere near today's better stuff, no matter what you put in front of them." "And 95% of all your sound is your speakers, your room acoustics and your setup. " These sound like pretty entrenched remarks to me. And BTW I really don't give a rats behind what you think, but if you're going to make a statement, back it up and stop meandering all over the place. And, what shop in Albuquerque again ? I think I missed that response. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1393 Registered: Jun-07 | Lets see, Guns?, BS Religion?, Do you like oil as well? WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!Bush Supporter I bet. LOL!! Thanks for the great price on my recent mortgage. lol. What are we talking about here? All I see is a lot of stuff about Phase angles. My speakers play music, and sound good...lol Who give a flying f u c k about Phase angles. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1394 Registered: Jun-07 | John- FWIW, Jan's recent speakers are speakers he built himself. And from what I hear they sound pretty good to boot. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 38 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, I said eccentric and/or daffy, as in design or what they're selling. I didn't say they sounded intrinsically worse, though Linn is intrinsically expensive for the internal parts quality. You are misquoting me on the 57s. I have heard a lot of those "amazing" speakers and they don't sound all that great compared to many, if not most <$500 speakers and I'm willing to lay money on the measurements backing that up, if anyone were to go back and measure speakers that old seriously - FR, distortion, dispersion, spectral decay, etc. 95% of all your sound *is* your room acoustics, speakers, setup. Well, technically, it's much more than that, but you can't put an exact number. Could be 99.9% unless the amp or something is close to defective. Feel free to insert your own number. 80% is fine too. Nick, I love oil and war in all its forms Not talking about phase angles, i'm talking about inherent delay in most analog speakers, many of which are supposed to have 'pace, rhythm and timing' (there, i said it for you Jan). You, uhhhh, believe everything you hear, do you Nick?  I'll wait til I hear them next to a reference or til the reviews and measurements all come out  |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 39 Registered: Apr-08 | BTW, i think there's a *bit* more leeway to talk smack about 40 or 50 year old speakers. Ask any speaker engineer and they'll tell you that the parts quality, knowledge base and CAD available today put older speakers clearly out of the game, even though there are plenty of low grade speakers available today. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 229 Registered: Mar-04 | John, you have to take into consideration the Jan is the lead lemming here. Forget the Yoga, how about a round of high colonics? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10074 Registered: Dec-04 | Has Wiley written all over this schmuck. Good luck, schmuck. I missed 1; your reference material as per testing 2; your store in NM 3; your responses to Stu's numerous requests 4; your point NAD is NAD, and not among the first choices in the price range of the M series for most people. If you cannot hear real live music, then you cannot draw a reference to it, which is the most common reference of all. Out. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 230 Registered: Mar-04 | "And BTW I really don't give a rats behind what you think" You must to some degree, otherwise you would resist the urge to respond. Chris your Vista Audio I84 Amplifier looks like a really nice piece and you seem to enjoy it. Who cares what Johh, myself, or the neighborhood bums definition of high fidelity is. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1395 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck-I dunno bout you, but I am sure enjoying this nice weather today. Shrimp and steak on the barby, a beer in hand, new Jack Johnson cd playing in the background, and packing slowly for the big move. You get your kit back up and running yet? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 231 Registered: Mar-04 | How about we play that Costello tune peace, love, & understanding, then hit the repeat button? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1396 Registered: Jun-07 | John- Nuck wanted to know what you thought of Classe...lol is NAD STILL better than that? LOL Nuck- your not done here yet my friend.lol Couldn't resist man. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 40 Registered: Apr-08 | Ah, more name calling! 1. Everything and anything 2. Why does it matter? 3. I've answered Stu's questions several times 4. That someone's 'say so' isn't necessarily the same as objective fact NAD is very often the choice for people who care more about real performance rather than imagined performance. An amplifier can only provide life like performance if attached to a transparent speaker and playing music that was recorded on a transparent microphone and those don't exist. And even if they did, stereo sound is inherently flawed. So all this 'sounds live' thing is just people fooling themselves because none of it does. All we can do is get closer and closer. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 41 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, I like Classe quite a bit. Would definitely sell it though it doesn't quite pull me away from NAD. I legitimately think Masters is as good as anybody can really hear, at least through existing speakers. As I said, digital active speakers are the next big evolution of audio, so why worry about microscopic differences between good amps? What's the point in "My good amp is better than your good amp!" ??? A beer does sound nice. I am going to put in some more ceiling speakers in the house and outside. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 232 Registered: Mar-04 | Oh yea John, what about Halcro. Take that you swine! |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 43 Registered: Apr-08 | One of the few amps in the world with a S/N ratio greater than that of the M3 |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 233 Registered: Mar-04 | You see "Gentlemen", you catch more flies with honey than vinegar. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 238 Registered: Jul-07 | ""And BTW I really don't give a rats behind what you think" You must to some degree, otherwise you would resist the urge to respond. Chris your Vista Audio I84 Amplifier looks like a really nice piece and you seem to enjoy it. Who cares what Johh, myself, or the neighborhood bums definition of high fidelity is." Uh, I don't. I don't respond because I care what anyone thinks. Usually it's because I'm interested as to what people think. However, this isn't the case with JA. I'm only responding because it's fun. He has been here before and it's oddly enjoyable watching him talk in circles. And JA, it is difficult to misquote the typed word. You just sort of cut and paste. Your sentence is pretty clear, so why try to weasle around the words again. Your latest proposition seems to be that NAD is better than anyone can hear, so why buy better. There again, you're going to find more people that disagree with that than agree. Feel free to back away from that statement as well. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 234 Registered: Mar-04 | "Uh, I don't. I don't respond because I care what anyone thinks. Usually it's because I'm interested as to what people think". Are you feeling lightheaded today? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1397 Registered: Jun-07 | JA- I have at one time owned 4 pieces of NAD equipment. I can't disagree with you on the fact that NAD is a nice flat(Neutral) sound, because I too feel it is. But I might add there is companies out there that also make very very Neutral, great sounding products as well. Such as Bryston, Sim Audio and a few others. I think the M3 is a great product IMO. And would any day live with it in my system. I do, for now, prefer the presentation of the Bryston stuff(especially their power amps) so will settle for quite sometime with a two channel system consisting of Bryston. But I will never let my T763 AVR go for the surround sound purposes. Hows that for a truce? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 235 Registered: Mar-04 | "Your latest proposition seems to be that NAD is better than anyone can hear". Now Chris, let's look at what was really said ok. "I legitimately think Masters is AS GOOD as anybody can really hear." Semantics, perhaps, but the devil is in the details no? |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 44 Registered: Apr-08 | Chris, your 'quoting' made it seem like I said the Quad 57 was crap when I'd really said that it was the best speaker of the bunch, if properly updated. We don't know for sure if the M3 best amp anyone can hear since we don't have speakers transparent enough to demonstrate any substantial difference between it and a $50K amp. "Listening" for the sound "quality" of something that is thousands of times more pure than your listening device is pretty silly when you think about it. There's not an amp in production today that's as bad as the best speaker. Not even close. But, hey, I'll slap money down if you want to try to prove me wrong in a DBT. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 45 Registered: Apr-08 | Nick, that was very well said. I didn't say NAD was better than everything, just that it is as good as anything in its price range, +/- an extremely small amount. I still have a couple of Audio Innovations Altos that I can't get rid off because I like them so much. Emotional? Probably. But what the heck. I'm sure I would enjoy the Bryston as much as an M3. Might be a tiny bit different in sound, but probably every bit as enjoyable to me, except that I actually do use the tilt feature and other capabilities of the M3 that I find rather useful. I'm really a music lover. Audio gear is largely just a means to an end. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 661 Registered: Jan-05 | "Do they have like guy bass and gal bass and the guy bass always leads?" HAHAHAhahahahaha!! Anyway. A defintion of bright was requested. I believe I know what that is. And its different to the definition of tinny for those thinking of silly cheap ipod speakers and laptop built in speakers. Bright is cambridge audio (as one example). It's very subtle at first, infact you wont notice it, but obviously apparent when you're listening for extended periods. Bright refers to the upper end of the audio frequencies that are accentuated to give a boost of air in the soundstage and jump out more. The soundstage is prominent and thin. Bright can be an excuse for giving the illusion of more detail than there really is. If somethings bright its not enjoyable. Bright music is not music at all. That is one reason why I bought my Marantz, yes its still very good. "WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION!!!" Nick, Faithless are the BEST band in the world. I found it ironic as when I read that, I was listening to Faithless (but not that song). "So all this 'sounds live' thing is just people fooling themselves because none of it does. All we can do is get closer and closer." Thats a good line. I was going to say it but you beat me to it. There is no such thing as a system good enough to equal that of live music. There simply isnt, no speakers, amp etc can be like that of a real concert or gig. JA, it must seem like you're being hard done to and on a one man team but really its the way it sometimes in ecoustics. For a start some of us have had some big squabbles with Jan, including myself. Jan can be hot headed no doubt about that, but thats just Jan, like NAD is just a reputable amplifier company. Soon enough, the thread will come to an end, maybe anyway.. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1398 Registered: Jun-07 | "I'm really a music lover. Audio gear is largely just a means to an end." Also, well said. Yeah both can be enjoyed equally giving the right music and setting. I see that you are selling the new Modular set line up of NAD AVR's. From what my ears heard a few weekends ago they seem to sound a bit better than their last lineup of AVR's. I went to a local Hi Fi shop a few weekends ago who carry, Bryston,NAD,Arcam,Onkyo Integra,Rotel and Yamaha components. I listened to everything like a kid in a candy store. Heard a T765 on a full B&W setup and must say it impressed. Also got to listen to a Bryston/B&w setup and a Arcam 350/Tanyo setup. All three sounded good, in totally different ways. The Bryston/B&W setup impressed the most but was nowhere near a fair comparison considering it was a 26b/7B pre pro combo with the big 803's.(Yikes). The other two setups were just smaller setups. When you start to bring on other brands, any ideas of what brands you like to carry? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1399 Registered: Jun-07 | "Bright is cambridge audio (as one example)" I would say, giving the room, the speaker matup, and source, than yes Cambridge could be bright. I have heard CA a few times and thought it was alright. Every amp can sound bright if mismatched in the synergy department with the other gear. Sounds like your Marantz, to your ears, is a much better match with your MA speakers. Congrats J. Jarvis. Enjoy the music. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 46 Registered: Apr-08 | JJ, Bright is simply too much treble. And many products measure flat, yet seem bright. That is then harshness, rather than brightness. There is usually more harshness in the world than brightness, including in people. Borrow a C315BEE, I'd be curious what you think. I haven't brought them in yet. The newer units are smoother, less "attacky" than older NADs, but they vary very slightly from model to model, year to year. Nick, I don't know what other electronics I might carry. For the most part, these days, it has to be really innovative, not just a straight wire with gain. For instance, we brought in the Peachtree Decco and we sell Sonos by the dozen. Again, more of a means to an end thing. Sonos helps me enjoy music far more than the differences in amps. That's what I'm doing between posting - setting up more Sonos zones in the house. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 10076 Registered: Dec-04 | Thanks, Nick. The Classe is running fine. The ca300 is running the 90's 'awful' speakers ok. Remember these speakers have an impedence dip to 3.1, a response of about 87 and a phase swing of 22 degrees(single degrees), mind you). Luckily, the amp is around 600 watts there. With a slewrate below 30us, a response time to match, a flat square waveform and a bullitproof build. It cost 2000$, but needs a preamp. I really cannot comment further on integrateds. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 662 Registered: Jan-05 | Thanks Nick! "Bright is simply too much treble." Its definatley not simply too much treble. I'd say it is peaks in the treble, treble in my books essentially being the range that the is mostly covered by the tweeter, which is different for various speakers. It can also be peaks in other frequencies too as I found out messing about with many frequencies, with different octaves whilst playing music. And of course synergy as you may have mentioned. And are you saying that harshness is a flat reponse mistaken for brightness. Because I'd tend to disagree with that too. I'd borrow a 315 if I could but my dealer doesnt have them in yet either. I heard a sonos in the store, playing with some odd shaped looking Missions. Thought it sounded wanck. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 2655 Registered: May-05 | John, I've asked several questions that you did not answer. You still haven't answered the question of how does the M3 measure better than the B60. Please objectively point to where the M3 measured better. The THD+Noise graphs can not be refered to because they were not performed under the same parameters. One may look at them and infer that the M3 would measure better if the exact parameters were used, but no one can say definitively. The rest of the graphs can be directly compared objectively, because they were measured under the exact same parameters. You said the M3 has a more extended frequency response. Please explain how, because under the same parameters, the graphs clearly show the B60's high frequency response rolls off at the same point, and its bass rolls off at a lower point. Actually, its bass doesn't roll of at the lowest point measured, which is 10 hz. Furthermore, in the same graph, the B60's frequency response is clearly flatter across the entire bandwidth. There are more than enough tests that Stereophile performed under the same parameters to both the M3 and B60. The THD+Noise was the only test not performed the same way. Please point out how the M3 objectively measured better than the B60. For example - 'Graphs x, y, and z were all measured the same way for both integrated amps. The M3 clearly measured better in these tests.' That's not so hard to do if the M3 objectively measured better. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1400 Registered: Jun-07 | Nuck- sweet stuff. Those speakers sound like a doozy to power. But im sure the Classe amps are up to it. Your saying you need a SECOND pre amp?lol |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 236 Registered: Mar-04 | Nuck/Stu, your both sounding as uptight (almost) as Jan. Maybe it is a function of passing the 10000 and 2000 post marks. Go back a bit and see what I recommended for Jan's condition, it may help you. It seems my altruistic side is getting the better of me today, to the benefit of the ecoustics community. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 47 Registered: Apr-08 | JJ - how about "too much treble in any given place"? As in, a peak? Harshness is when accuracy doesn't sound good. Because accuracy with low distortion sounds quite good. It's that "too detailed" sound that many speakers now have. Cone resonance. Distortion peaks, etc when you can't blame a lift in the upper midrange or treble. What is "wanck"? Sonos is pretty cool, though for audiophile purposes, you need to run it through a nice DAC and amp, rather than their integrated, hence the attraction to the Peachtree Decco. Tube preamp is a bit on the overly warm side, but they told me they were trying to cover for mp3s. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 48 Registered: Apr-08 | Stu, I've already pointed it out. There's no sense pointing again to things you refuse to see or accept or claim is invalid. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 237 Registered: Mar-04 | Stu, have you ever seen the movie groundhog day? Oh, why bother, your living it right here and now. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 663 Registered: Jan-05 | You know bloudy well what wanck is. It was WANK!! Wank wank wank. Its a cool idea but as I said, it didnt sound good so therefore turns out not be a very good idea for anyone serious about good sound. Its a good idea for making money. "JJ - how about "too much treble in any given place"? As in, a peak?" What does that mean? How about what? Surely you know the defintion of a peak! I think I summed up bright pretty well. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 238 Registered: Mar-04 | "You know bloudy well what wanck is". Actually, were not all hip to your lingo across the pond. |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 49 Registered: Apr-08 | Especially when the British can't even spell it right! As I said, Sonos sounds just fine when running through a DAC and a good amp, especially when using lossless files. In fact, some think its better than taking it right off an optical disc. Isn't a peak basically too much of something in one place? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 1401 Registered: Jun-07 | "Actually, were not all hip to your lingo across the pond." Who said its Lingo? Because an American doesn't say it must mean its Lingo.lol Perhaps it is Lingo. I kind of like it. EH!!! lol. |
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Silver Member Username: James_the_godDoncaster, South Yorkshire England Post Number: 664 Registered: Jan-05 | I put wanck incase there was a block on the word. As we now know there isnt. I clearly know how to spell unbridled. Bloudy was blocked. Maybe sonos can sound good with a DAC, it just didnt impress me. Yes a peak is that, but I think its the combination of peaks which is more important than a single peak. I think I'm done in this thread, its getting off hand. And thanks for that Nick p.s. "Across the pond" is becoming quite a cliche. JJ |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 239 Registered: Mar-04 | p.s. "Across the pond" is becoming quite a cliche. That's a load of old bollocks! |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 50 Registered: Apr-08 | Well, you did say the Sonos was attached to Missions and speakers aren't exactly their strong suit. I have mine attached directly to NHT's Xd and the sound is exceptional. Not quite as good as with a good DAC, but close enough til I can find a good one I want. Never blame the electronics for the sound of a speaker. Well, almost never. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12478 Registered: May-04 | . "JJ, Bright is simply too much treble." I'd say that's wrong. "bright, brilliant The most often misused terms in audio, these describe the degree to which reproduced sound has a hard, crisp edge to it. Brightness relates to the energy content in the 4kHz-8kHz band. It is not related to output in the extreme-high-frequency range. All live sound has brightness; it is a problem only when it is excessive." http://www.stereophile.com/reference/50/index2.html Now we can quibble over context but why should we? "Degrees, Jan, degrees. Have you heard of a crossover?" I've heard of crosovers, built a few and seen many. I just don't like most of them. What's your excuse? Well, you finally got "degrees" right, JA. One answer out of eighteen questions. Now wouldn't it have been simpler if you'd asked somebody for that answer before you posted "Most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift, but some are worse ... " We can agree phase is measured in degrees, you just haven't told me what kind of degrees. What happens in a crossover has different effects on different types of phase relationships - not phase "shifts". Until you know what phase relationship you are discussing we are still just barely out of the harbor. However, just knowing phase is measured in degrees should tell you "Most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift, but some are worse" is laughable and there cannot be a phase shift of thousands of degrees. How many degrees in a circle, JA? If the acoustic phase of two drivers is 360° out of phase, the correct electrical polarity of the two drivers is intact and there are no problems to discuss. Even your favorite graphs will show a speaker that is operating correctly. The thing is, this is at the crossover point between the two drivers which is typically in the 2-3kHz range and has no effect on the frequencies that are responsible for PRaT which we hear in the deep bass to mid bass. "Rhythm", JA, where does the music get it's rhythm? Not from anything above 3kHz. If I take two drivers and reverse the electrical polarity to one driver, the two will operate 180° out of acoustic phase and no sound will result in the areas where the drivers interact. (That's part of how you design a crossover for those who don't understand these technical things.) It's called hooking your speakers up out of phase. The bass response goes away due to the length of the pressure wave and the mids and highs become diffuse because they are out of phase as they reach our ears. None of which has anything to do with PRaT. No sound when drivers are out of phase? Now how could that contribute to PRaT? Well, it doesn't unless you want me to believe speakers that are connected out of phase are the ones that have PRaT. That would solve a lot of problems if it were only true. Even when the drivers are 180°, or as you call it, JA, "most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift" out of acoustic phase. If you want to discuss electrical phase angle which is a function of a typical crossover, there too you will find a limit. At 90° phase angle - the most a crossover can actually accomplish (check the Stereophile graphs, -45° one direction and +45° the other direction), the voltage and current are out of phase and no work gets done. No work? No sound? PRaT? Don't think so. Cone resonance is not a factor of "time" and doesn't screw with time. And "much of the bass lags several *milliseconds*" is also incorrect. Go back and ask the shop's smart guy how this really works. You got words, JA. And they don't make sense no matter how many times who've thrown them at and tried to intimidate people with your words. "I let people "listen" all the time, but tell me, are you one of those magical people that can listen through different speakers in a different room, with different cables, a different CD player and even different music and tell me how my amplifier sounds? If you think so, it sure explains a lot. A lot of people surprisingly think they can." And you're one of those people who doesn't believe what "a lot of people" tell you. I am one of those people. If you have a real reference for what live music sounds like and you don't look at a spec sheet to decide what to buy, it's pretty easy really. Start listening to your clients, JA, they know what they are hearing - you don't. "I think if I stick around, you'll be one frustrated "big fish" in your little pond as someone might challenge you on your BS. I think I'd rather be my age, be able to hear still, and not sound like a frustrated old guy who thinks he knows way more than he does about audio, desperately hoping people will listen to his stories around the internet fire." I don't have to hope anyone will believe me. I always hope they won't. That's why I usually supply links to what I claim so they can check it out for themself. I let them make up their own mind and I encourage them to think. So just cut the "old guy" crap - quite a few of these members are my age - and stop spouting BS and outright lies just to make yourself look good to the young guys. If you stick around, my frustration will be in constantly correcting the things you get wrong. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12479 Registered: May-04 | . "Never blame the electronics for the sound of a speaker." You intend to keep me busy correcting you, don't you, JA? The above sentence is ludicrous and everyone who has followed the discussions on this forum should understand why. Just remember, an amplifier and speakers form a circuit. If you believe all amplifiers always sound the same with any speaker and speakers are the only thing that matter in a system, follow the path of JA's logic. Otherwise, figure it out for yourself. That is one stupid statement. If you believe how an amplifier performs on a test bench into a purely resistive load is how it works in the real world, believe JA. If you understand that all speakers are a reactive load, follow what you have learned on this forum. JA's path is simple, look at a spec sheet. It doesn't require thinking and obviously he's actively engaged in not thinking. The other way to think about a system is more difficult and requires you understand what's happening in the system and that you listen for yourself. Tough choice! . |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 239 Registered: Jul-07 | "Uh, I don't. I don't respond because I care what anyone thinks. Usually it's because I'm interested as to what people think". Are you feeling lightheaded today?" One of us is. Read it again. Being interested in what somebody thinks, and caring what their opinion is aren't the same. ""Your latest proposition seems to be that NAD is better than anyone can hear". Now Chris, let's look at what was really said ok. "I legitimately think Masters is AS GOOD as anybody can really hear." Semantics, perhaps, but the devil is in the details no?" Really, is that material to the supposition of the statement ? Either way, the claim was that the NAD was at or near the limit of what we can hear (> or =, you choose). My point remains, most would disagree with this, in either manifestation. Circular arguments of the finest form. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12480 Registered: May-04 | . "Now Chris, let's look at what was really said ok. 'I legitimately think Masters is AS GOOD as anybody can really hear'." "JA - Do you ever sell anything more expensive than NAD? Or do you always downsell to the cheapest product? You know, to do your client a favor. "Hellsbells, it's good enough for me, why should you want anything more? I can't hear PRaT, why should you want it?" . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 240 Registered: Mar-04 | FWIW, Jan's recent speakers are speakers he built himself". Nice going Jan, I can imagine your attempting to find the perfect amplifier for them... all ashen white with your eyes bulging out of your head. No, no, no. This sucker's electrical, but I need a nuclear reaction to generate the 1.21 gigawatts of electricity I need! 1.21 gigawatts? 1.21 gigawatts? Great Scott! |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 241 Registered: Mar-04 | Circular arguments of the finest form. Chris, now just take it easy. Why don't you take a deep breath and slowly count to 400. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12481 Registered: May-04 | . I have no idea what that's supposed to mean. Maybe you need to try some Yoga, id. You are reading this stuff, aren't you? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 242 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, your such a salty old sea dog you don't see a compliment when it hits you in the face. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 243 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan the man, I understand this Ashman character has you keyed up a bit (not much, nothing a man of your caliber cannot handle). But like Denzel said in training day "let me quarterback this $hit"! I mean, I did mention Halcro didn't I. Ok Ashman, here is one I know you have NEVER heard before: NAD = nearly always defective, HA! Very clever, well, except I haven't read any issues with the masters series... Hmmm, Ok Ashman, SAD= sometimes always defective (not the masters series just the Classic series and I don't know the percentage on that). Well, so much for the quarterback gig, I am from Chicago and we do have our quarterback issues. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12482 Registered: May-04 | . Uh huh! |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 51 Registered: Apr-08 | Jan, I legitimately think you are insane, something on the order of Ron Paul, possibly worse. You think you understand the world, it's just not in a way anyone else can understand or relate to, it's a world populated by one giant ego, no space left for reason or discussion, so I'll let you go on with your meaningless, senseless diatribes. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 240 Registered: Jul-07 | JA, you can hardly chastise anyone for meaningless, senseless diatribes. You argue in circles without a single solitary nucleus of reason. Only post upon post of disjointed unsubstantiated nonsense. Make a point, back it up, or move on. Your focus on JV is removing the already thin veil of who you really are, Mr. Precipitously. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 244 Registered: Mar-04 | "JA, you can hardly chastise anyone for meaningless, senseless diatribes. You argue in circles without a single solitary nucleus of reason". Chris, your lexicon is most impressive. Hey John you just argue in circles but I employ "Circular arguments of the finest form", jealous? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 245 Registered: Mar-04 | "Jan, I legitimately think you are insane, something on the order of Ron Paul, possibly worse". Go easy on Jan, he's still working on powering those homemade speakers. On a related note John, since Jan and Mr. Paul share many character traits let us christen a Jan Vinge blimp as the Paulistenaian's did for Ron Paul. I'll take the Hindenburg for 600 Alex! |
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Bronze Member Username: John_ashmanAlbuquerque, NM United States Post Number: 52 Registered: Apr-08 | I think I've been quite clear and quite consistent. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 12483 Registered: May-04 | . I think you've been quite clearly misinformed and consistently wrong. "Most speakers are only hundreds of phase shift ... " LOL . |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 246 Registered: Mar-04 | "Your focus on JV is removing the already thin veil of who you really are". I think that Jan, perhaps due to his workload is projecting his angst outward and John is a convenient target. As I stated before, I understand that Jan is lead lemming here Chris, so your statement above is no surprise. However, I don't believe you took my advice about that deep breath and long count. If you had you might practice some objectivity and welcome those whose point of view differs from yours and those you follow and admire. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1255 Registered: May-06 | id - tell me you are from the north side of Chicago...LOL JA, while you may have some interesting opinions your general lack of facts is just that. I did note you accurately represented a couple of things to which no one questioned you on. We all can have opinions, some of us can provide facts to support our opinions. I suppose it is ok to have an opinion, I just don't know why you feel the need to go on attack when it is pointed out your opinions are just that and you don't really know much about what you are saying. This has been a "Wiley" trait of sorts, like you would not already have known, er, I mean guessed. So continue, for nothing else, the entertainment value, as you certainly are well short on credibility. "phase by hundreds or thousands of degrees and quite a few ms.", "the speakers you list are just old crappy speakers", "IMO, PRaT is marketing speak for an amp that is bright and has no bass. Old NAD amps had PRaT. There is not such thing in engineering as PRaT.", "My attitude is that you can get "PRaT" on the cheap and you can get "refined" on the cheap, so why spend a lot to get it. I have a few Audio Innovations Altos that I just love - smooth, refined, enjoyable. Not too "PRaTTy", but I don't care." Good grief, just admit you do not know what you are talking about and move on already. Answering questions with metaphors is pretty much saying that you have no clue but want to continue to be a huckster at best, shyster at least. I can't help but think what your customers have to endure with you. Are you the only game in your part of town? |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 247 Registered: Mar-04 | Oh Mike your from Texas huh. Ok... |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 248 Registered: Mar-04 | Mike you sound colicky today. How about rubbing a little Monistat on that itch, should fix you right up. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 249 Registered: Mar-04 | Jan, I have to give you credit. They follow your lead like your the Pied Piper, preach on from your compound down in Texas Jan! (must be something in the water down there?) |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 1256 Registered: May-06 | All that because I asked if you were from the North side of town? That sums it up fairly well, thanks id. |
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Silver Member Username: Unbridled_idChicagoUsa Post Number: 250 Registered: Mar-04 | No, all that because you are a lemming. When did the judge release you from the custody of Child Protective Services? |
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