I've been looking at the specs and it seems that the only thing the 8300 has over the 7400 is 120w vs 105. But... the 7400 is 105x7 (not x6 like the 8300) so overall - more watts. The 7400 has the updated Dolby IIx. Very similar inputs/outputs. The 7400 has a better remote than the 7300 but perhaps not as nice as the 8300.
It also has "HD component video switching with High Quality video up conversion Speaker A and B with Multi-room with Multi-Speaker". I'm not sure what these are but they sound good and I don't believe the 8300 has these features.
So what am I missing - MSRP $1000 vs $1800?
BT Brown
Posted on
I've read on another site that the 7400 is made in China vs Japan for the 8300. Could that be the reason for the huge pricing difference?
Also, how can the 7400 produce more overall watts than the 8400 and yet weigh so much less?
Anyone care to comment? It would be greatly appreciated.
elitefan
Posted on
The 8300 has more inputs than the 7400 and more features and a better power supply as it weights 8 more pounds than the 7400. I like the Marantz line but feel they are a bit over priced vesus the competition, that being mainly H/K, Elite and NAD.
BT Brown
Posted on
More inputs? 8300/7400
SVideo in 6/5 Composite in 6/5 Component out 1/1 (7400 has upconversion) SVideo out 4/3 Analog lr out 4/5
All other inputs/outputs are the SAME! So can these differences really account for the difference in price?
Also, when you say better power supply is that quantifiable. Is it simply better weight = better supply?
Thanks
Hawk
Posted on
BT:
Again, you are confusing watts per channel with power. This confusion is understandable since everyone is required by an out-dated 35 year old FTC regulation to publish their power specs in watts per channel with (only) two channels driven. But speakers don't read watts--they are driven by current, rated in amps. The power supply on the 8300, as elitefan points out, is much larger and better, and produces a lot more current regardless of wpc rating.
Several years ago, Marantz came out with a superb receiver for the day, the 7000, a 5.1 receiver which was highly prized by auiophiles. Later, this unit was replaced with the 7200, a very troubled unit which added a sixth channel and a couple of formats, but they had put in a poor power supply. Sound & Vision tested the 7200, which Marantz rated at 100 wpc, but S&V discovered that it was only capable of 27 wpc when all 6 channels were driven at the same time. It was a good sounding receiver only if you had extremely efficient speakers.
You see, the FTC rule says that power must be tested by plugging in an 8 ohm resistor into two channels and then driving the two channels. In this case, the 7200 was very capable of driving two 8 ohm resistors into two channels at 100 wpc, but I, like most people use real speakers which have a resistance that varies by frequency. The speaker may be 8 ohm rated but it will be as low as 4 ohms at some frequencies and as high 24 ohms at other frequencies. This means the receiver must be able to produce more current than if it is simply pushing a couple of resistors
Additionally, I (and most people) will probably drive more than just two channels. A power supply which has its current divided by five, six or even seven channels, is not likely to make the 100 wpc rating which is based upon only two channels being driven. With the larger power supply of the 8300, you will get much more power to each channel because there is more current produced to be divided among the multiple channels.
The moral of the story is do not believe these spec sheets put out by manufacturers. They are more misleading than informative.
You are no doubt correct that part of the difference is in the point of origin, as the Chinese Yuan is fixed to the US Dollar, but the Yen floats and has been rising steadily agains the dollar, so the Japanese sourced models will cost a bunch more. But I am beginning to hear suggestions that the x400 series, which is the first design since Marantz was taken over by Denon, uses cheap parts and is not nearly the same quality as the older x300 series. A year ago, it was suggested that Marantz would be moving downscale below the quality of Denon so that Denon could cover the whole market. In essence, Marantz will be the low end line of DM Holdings, LLC. If this proves to be true, it will be a very sad day for audiophiles everywhere.
Oh, and one more thing--the 7400 adds Dolby Pro Logic IIx, which is merely Pro Logic II processing into 7 channels instead of just 5. So, it takes a two channel signal and converts it into a seven channel signal instead of a 5 channel signal. It really isn't that big a deal.
elitefan
Posted on
Hawk, I am sorry to hear the news about the new Marantz line being below the Denon in the DM hiearchy as the 300 series Marantz is IMO superior to the current Denon's. Very sad. This is yet another example of the consumer being the loser in yet another merger. This has happened in every area of our economy and is not a good thing at all. Mergers and deregulation have really screwed things up for the regular working guy. I guess the bottom line is if you want a Marantz buy a 300 series before it's too late. I will contact my Marantz dealer and see if he has any info on this and if he will tell me the truth either way.
I have been planning to buy the Marantz SR5400. I hope this is not a Denon downgraded unit since Marantz has had a strong reputation for good high current amplifiers in their home video centers.
I am interested in any Marantz news updates or opinions on this or alternative receivers in the $500-$600 range.
The Onkyo 601 that I just received is going back in the box.
Would you categorize the Infinity Entra as a forward/bright speaker?
Are Entras a good match with a H/K receiver?
JL
Posted on
hawk
any confirmation on the x400 series being inferior (quality speaking and not features) to their x300 counterpart, as ive an order of a 7400 (2wks overdue by the way grrr) at the moment and if what you're saying is true, then i just might get a 7300 before its too late. your posts are really well appreciated by the way
elitefan a little off topic, but are you from the US? coz you mentioned that marantz are way overpriced compared to HK and NAD, but from where im standing (UK soil), it seems HK are way too overpriced, NAD are priced quite well and Marantz are actually bargains (if u know where to get), Denons are even more expensive that Marantz here. looks like we're being ripped off of NAD and HK products here :-( cheers
elitefan
Posted on
I talked to my Marantz dealer yesterday and he has had the 7400 in stock for a while and said he can't see any decrease in build or sound quality from the 7300. Of course he is trying to sell products but he knows I am not in the market for a receiver and he made the point that since Denon and Marantz have different dealer networks that it doesn't make sense for the Marantz line to be downgraded. I guess we will have to see for ourselves and read the reviews etc. JL, Yes I live in the US. In my area the Marantz are more expensive than their Elite and NAD competition but these brands all have price points that vary a few hundred dollars or so. Locally the Marantz dealers are not willing to discount much at all, maybe 10% at most while I got a 33% discount on my Elite 45. I am talking local dealers only, not mail order.
JL
Posted on
thanks for the heads-up elitefan
cmm
Unregistered guest
Posted on
this was taken from the NHT website forum and was written by Jack Hidely director of engineering for NHT......
"The Marantz website has virtually no power output specifications for the SR7400 model. All it says is what you have posted. As John pointed out, there is no way that this receiver puts out 130W/channel into all 7 channels simultaneously. This would mean that the total power output would be 910W. Assuming 60% amplifier efficiency, which is very good, this would mean that the receiver would need to draw a maximum of 1,517W from the wall. I'll bet you that the back of the unit indicates a maximum power draw of something like 600W. This translates to about 50W RMS with all channels driven.
The link that John posted has some very incorrect information posted by the Hawk individual. This person doesn't understand basic physics. They are correct about the FTC regulations on the power output for stereo home amplifiers. At this time, they do not apply to home amplifiers with more than 2 channels. The FTC has asked for comment on extending these rules to multichannel amplifiers. Currently they are waiting for CEMA to offer up a specification for power output specifications. I fully expect for CEMA to send some BS spec to the FTC that says "All channels driven with an alternating duty cycle of 5% at 50% THD into a dead short." As soon as CEMA submits this to the FTC, NHT will submit an objection to it along with a number of other speaker manufacturers. I fully expect the rule to change to something virtually the same as the stereo amplifier rule.
The L5 has an average impedance of 6 ohms and a minimum impedance of about 3.5 ohms. This means that at some frequencies the impedance is 10-12 ohms. Your receiver should not be getting that hot and shutting down. One of the threads I found on the 7400 indicated that even when no speaker loads were connected to the receiver outputs, it got very hot. This indicates something is very wrong with the receiver.
There is almost no correlation between the angular position of the volume control on the receiver and the power output of the amplifier. The only correlation that exists is that as the volume control is rotated counter clockwise, the power output from the receiver will decrease and that as the volume control is rotated clockwise, the power output of the receiver will go up UNLESS you have already reached the maximum power output that the receiver has. Then all it will do is clip the tops of the signal off and sound very bad.
The volume control on a receiver is really a gain control. Gain refers to the number of times the amplitude of the signal is amplified. If the gain is 5, that means the incoming signal is amplified by a factor of 5. As the volume control is rotated clockwise, the amount of gain increases. Typical receivers have a gain of about 50 when the volume control is set at maximum. If a CD player is putting out a voltage of 1V into the receiver and the volume control of the receiver is set to maximum, the receiver will attempt to apply 50V across the speaker. If the speaker is an 8 ohm load, the amplifier will attempt to deliver 6.25A of current to the speaker (50V/8ohms=6.25A). 50V across an 8ohm load is 312.5W of power delivered to the load(50V*6.25A=312.5W). If the receiver can only put out 4A of current, it will start clipping the tops of the waveform off once they exceed 32V (4A*8ohms=32V). If the volume control is turned down until the gain of the receiver is 32, then the output of the receiver will only put a maximum of 32V across the speaker. This is equal to 128W (32V*4A=128W). "
cmm, According to the review of the Marantz 5400 in the January Sound &Vision it has the following power spec as tested. Output at clipping with 1 channel driven at 8 ohms is 171 watts. 5 channels driven is 103 watts. Based on these bench test results the 7400 will obviously output more than this as it has an even bigger power supply. For the above person to guess that the 7400 might put out only 50 watts is irresponsible and misleading. The rest of it is interesting. The main point is that Marantz owners do not have to worry about having enough power as their receivers excell in this area.
cmm
Unregistered guest
Posted on
Elitefan, I totally agree with you, the 7400 is a great receiver and does excell in this area.
I thought this was an interesting post from NHT, although misleading.
So, are you saying that on paper the 8300 and 7400 are close, but in real life they are not?
If so, then here is my follow-up question:
If I was trying to sell 2 receivers that are not close (in real life) why would my marketing dept. make them appear to be so close on paper? Do they think that people will hear the difference in the store? Do they think that their customers know better? Why don't they just spell it out in the same way you did?
Just got my copy of Sound & vision, which has a nice review of the 5400. As always, one must read betwen the lines, but it appears to be a good one, so I will be spending time at my local Marantz dealer (that groan you just heard was from the Marantz dealer) to check it out.
I also hope, like elitefan, that the business plan of DM Holdings was either not true or has been scrapped as I have felt that marantz is one of the true good brands out there. Not many left. With the holidays, and all of the things that must get done, I have not had a chance to check these products out, but I will because I want to know for myself if the Marantz's are going to be a stripped down Denon or remain a quality near audiophile product.
As for not knowing what I am talking about, the fact remains that most of the audio companies comply with the FTC rule for their multi-channels receivers. Pick up a product sheet from Denon, Yamaha, Onkyo, etc., and they will specify their receivers power two channels at a time. As the large Japanese comglomerates are used to following Japanese government regulations from MITI (that govern almost everything), they generally follow FTC regulations here regardless of whether it is truly applicable. Yes, the FTC has invited comment, but the manufacturers have followed this practice for 30 years, so they aren't going to change until the FTC puts out a new rule.
I truly hope that NHT and the other speaker manufacturers will be able to convince the FTC that the rule needs drastic change. Although I apparently "do not understand basic physics," Mr. Hidely's comments about what CEMA will likely do confirm what I said. I never knew I was so famous!
Just got my copy of Sound & vision, which has a nice review of the 5400. As always, one must read betwen the lines, but it appears to be a good one, so I will be spending time at my local Marantz dealer (that groan you just heard was from the Marantz dealer) to check it out.
I also hope, like elitefan, that the business plan of DM Holdings was either not true or has been scrapped as I have felt that marantz is one of the true good brands out there. Not many left. With the holidays, and all of the things that must get done, I have not had a chance to check these products out, but I will because I want to know for myself if the Marantz's are going to be a stripped down Denon or remain a quality "music first" product.
Hawk, and others, I'm considering purchasing a new receiver to upgrade my Carver HTR-880. I can get either a Denon or Marantz at Dealer cost, but only the professional line, which is very limited. The nicest models that are available for me are the Denon 1083 (it's a 3803 that's been relabeled and has rack mounts) or a Marantz 7400P (SR-7400 with Rack mounts) The Denon is about 120 dollars more than the Marantz, but on paper, appears to be .03 percent cleaner in THD. Would this difference in THD be noticeable? Considering this, which receiver would you recommend? I'll listen to about 50 percent music and 50% HT. I'd also like to drive my ADS L810s (4 Ohm) if possible. (The Carver pushes them well) Thanks for your knowledgeable input. Dave
I'm in Canada and both the Denon's and especially the HK's seem to be WAY overpriced. However, we can get pretty sweet prices on both Marantz and NAD -- which I personally like better anyhow.
All,
It would seem that there has been NO downgrade in Marantz product quality, basd on observations and tests conducted by Sound and Vision mag, various Marantz dealers AND product specs.
From my observations, it appears that the new Marantz series weigh almost exactly the same as the x300 models they're replacing, as well as using better DAC's. Plus, it's hard to argue with scientifically-correct test results like that done by S&V mag on the 5400 -- 103w with all channels driven is great.
Also, from what I've read, Marantz is issuing a 70% power with all channels driven guarantee with all of their new x400 models. Sounds good to me!
Another reason why the 8300 is almost twice the price of the 7400 is undoubtedly because it is a THX certified unit, which always seems to boost prices.