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Anthony Gallo speakers with Simaudio

 

Bronze Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 98
Registered: Apr-06
I recently decided to sell my stand mount monitor speakers to move into a pair of floor stands for my 2 ch system.

I am considering a pair of Anthony Gallo 3.5's.

My front end consists of a Simaudio i7, Simaudio Supernova CD player, Wadia 170i dock and a Bryston BDA1 DAC. I browsed through the posts to see if I could find and reference of using Simaudio with the AG 3.5's, but I didn't so my apologies if I missed it. Does anyone have any experience using the Ref 3.5's speakers with Simaudio gear?

My room is approximately 11' x 33' x 8' ceilings. My system faces the long direction and I sit roughly 10 to 12 ft from the front wall. I like base, but I prefer not to overwhelm the room with an overly obtrusive speaker as well to obtain base.

I listen to a mixture of rock, pop, folk, new age. Rarely any country or classical.

What are your thoughts on using the 3.5's based on my gear/room and musical tastes?

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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17301
Registered: May-04
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The combination of Simaudio and Gallos doesn't particularly bother me. However, the width of your room bothers me when you are thinking about placing such a wide dispersion tweeter in a position so close to a highly reflective surface. With only 11' to work with - is that the correct measurement? - you would most definitely need to think about some room treatments to tame the reflection zones. That would apply to any high end speaker design with a broad dispersion tweeter.

An alternative which would mitigate a few room issues here would be a single driver, full range system which by its very nature has a more directional pattern of disperion. Or you might consider a bipole design such as a Magneplanar with a bipole high frequency driver. The bipole isn't my first choice since a bipole has less radiation to its sides than does a monopole like the Gallos but, at the least, the bipole's figure of eight radiation pattern will have far fewer very early and very strong first reflections off the immediate side wall. By limiting the side wall reflections using the natural patterns of the speaker itself rather than loading in large amounts of broadband absorption panels, you should find the sound to be much smoother with far fewer comb-filter and phase effects arriving at your listening position.


But I would strongly advice you to avoid broad dispersion tweeters in the room you describe above.



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Bronze Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 99
Registered: Apr-06
Jan:

Thanks for your comments and this was one of my concerns. I should have noted that we are building a new home, so the future home of my system will be custom designed. In the meantime, I plan on acoustically treating the room I described. Alternatively, I was curious about locating my system to face the short direction. I do have some flexibility, but not much. If I do this, the left speaker would be roughly 6 ft +/- from the left wall and the right speaker would be about 20 ft +/-. My concern in placing them along this wall is that they will need to sit closer to the front wall due to the limited 11' width. Thoughts?

My other options for speakers were PMC 23's or 24's, Salk Supercharged Songbirds or HT2-TL's, or Legacy Classic HD's or Signature SE's which I feel are too large.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17302
Registered: May-04
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First, tell me why you want floorstanding speakers. IMO their negatives far outweigh any benefits their bulk and size might provide. When you have a (full range) speaker system reproducing frequencies from 60Hz to, maybe, beneath 30Hz you are going to be forced into a situation where you must, for the sake of decent sound, position the speaker enclosure well away from the room boundaries and most expecially from tri-corners where two walls and the floor meet. In virtually every system I've set up this means you are trading all other aspects of the speaker's performance for two octaves or less of clean response. This isn't impossible to achieve as many systems have pulled this off to some degree or another. But few systems employing floorstanding speakers tend to have the transparency and lack of audible speaker position clues afforded to a monitor type standmount used in conjunction with a high quality subwoofer. Gallos sells such a sat/sub system now. The sub - two is best - is positioned where it performs to its best ability while the other eight octaves which hold the heart of all music are being reproduced by a speaker system set up for maximum fidelity and maximum transparency. Soundstaging and imaging characteristics - if those are your thing - are far superior on an equal quality standmounted monitor when compared to a large floorstander. Particular frequencies tend to not stick to the speaker cabinet with a monitor the way they do with floorstanders. Even in relatively large rooms a monitor/sub system can provide excellent sound quality when taken from a near field listening position.

So, why a floorstander?


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Bronze Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 100
Registered: Apr-06
Only because I've fiddled around with my existing monitors/sub(s) and never seemed to be able to properly integrate the two. Just when I got it set perfectly for one piece of music, I was making adjustments for the next piece and it was continuous. I tried different placements and even different rooms. Switched electronics, cables, etc. I got so frustrated in trying to integrate the two, that I finally gave up until I tried my Paradigm Signature S6's from my home theater and there it was; the full range sound I was seeking. That being said, the Lafleurs are a beautiful sounding, transparent speaker. It just didn't dig down to the depths I was seeking on its own. But to make up for the lows I was missing, I could never get a sub properly integrated so I'm not really interested in going back to a sub/monitor arrangement although perhaps it was due to the speakers/sub I was using. Now you might ask why I just don't get another pair of S6's if that is the sound that "did it for me". Only because I'm able to get a pair of 3.5's at a fair bit less than a pair of S6's will run me. And they do have fantastic reviews.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17305
Registered: May-04
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Yes, the Gallos sound is appealing to many listeners. There's really not much to dislike about the sound. I've spent many months with a Gallos owner's system making adjustments to the system, the room acoustics and the speaker's positioning to get what is a very high quality sound with a wide range of music. At times as we neared the final set up position the speaker adjustment might only be a slight tilt up or down or a bit of toe in by another 1/4". Room treatments are critical to getting the Gallos performing well but you must understand the typical absorptive type panels and traps are very broadband in their effect and can easily take more than you expect from the sound in the room. They are rather sensitive speakers, I would say, to highly critical set up. I'll go out on a limb here and say no one buys Gallos and just casually plops them down to get high quality sound though the speakers themself offer high quality in many situations and with a wide range of electronics.

If you want to buy the Gallos in hopes they will integrate properly with your new room, then you can take that gamble. In your present room I would guess the newness of the Gallos sound will begin to wear very quickly.


"I've fiddled around with my existing monitors/sub(s) and never seemed to be able to properly integrate the two. Just when I got it set perfectly for one piece of music, I was making adjustments for the next piece and it was continuous. I tried different placements and even different rooms. Switched electronics, cables, etc."


I'm not familiar with your monitors so I can't comment on why you had problems. Also without knowing the sub, I would only be guessing at any issues melding the two sonically. I can say your room is not likely to "sound good" without major work. And your present speaker position - judged by the photos - is not where I would have even thought to place the speakers. What specific speaker set up procedures have you used in your experimentation? Or, have you not used any procedure and just guessed at what you were doing? When I see someone saying they have changed equipment and moved components around etc, etc, etc, I tend to think they have missed the mark in set up or have no real priorities to aim for in sound quality and thay have therefore tried everything else trying to make up for what they lack due to poor placement and a lack of guidance from a high quality dealer or, at least, someone in the know. So, how have you gone about all of this? With a solid plan?



I see you've posted this over at audioreview also. Do you have a preference for where this gets put?




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Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14763
Registered: Dec-03
interesting commentary. Some of the best speakers I've auditioned for on and off axis imaging and soundstage, have been floor standing full-range speakers (ie, KEF Reference and Martin Logan) Environmental acoustics should be taken into consideration no matter what type of speaker you choose, though, and that setup pictured above isn't something I'd consider anywhere close to ideal.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 101
Registered: Apr-06
"I'm not familiar with your monitors so I can't comment on why you had problems. Also without knowing the sub, I would only be guessing at any issues melding the two sonically. I can say your room is not likely to "sound good" without major work. And your present speaker position - judged by the photos - is not where I would have even thought to place the speakers. What specific speaker set up procedures have you used in your experimentation? Or, have you not used any procedure and just guessed at what you were doing? When I see someone saying they have changed equipment and moved components around etc, etc, etc, I tend to think they have missed the mark in set up or have no real priorities to aim for in sound quality and thay have therefore tried everything else trying to make up for what they lack due to poor placement and a lack of guidance from a high quality dealer or, at least, someone in the know. So, how have you gone about all of this? With a solid plan?"

I'm sure it is solely due to my lack of experience and thinking just better gear will solve my problems but knowing better. Unfortunately, there is nobody in the area here that specializes in that type of work. The other factor is the WAF which I have no control over so I'm limited as to what I can do. The picture shown is actually when I had the system set up along the long wall.


"I see you've posted this over at audioreview also. Do you have a preference for where this gets put?"

I would prefer here. I've also posted it on AVS.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 102
Registered: Apr-06
interesting commentary. Some of the best speakers I've auditioned for on and off axis imaging and soundstage, have been floor standing full-range speakers (ie, KEF Reference and Martin Logan) Environmental acoustics should be taken into consideration no matter what type of speaker you choose, though, and that setup pictured above isn't something I'd consider anywhere close to ideal.

I agree with you and some of the best I've heard have not been in ideal rooms such as hotel rooms at audio shows. However, I don't know how you can make an assessment based on the picture alone that I posted above as you can't even see the full room parameters. No question that I am having issues and perhaps this is due to room acoustics, but I'm sure I've been in worst rooms where the sound has been superb (to my ears). The first time I heard the Lafleurs (same speakers I purchased) was in a hotel room in Montreal and amongst the best sounding speakers I heard that year at the show. Alone, they are incredible (but lacking bass). But, add a sub and things go to crap. I've tried a Velodyne DD15 and a Velodyne Optimum 8. As indicated above, I've tried my Paradigm Signature S6's and the sound is fantastic with and without the sub(s).
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17309
Registered: May-04
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So, what's the problem integrating the LaFleurs with a sub? I would guess the problem is more getting the sub to integrate with the room. Did you try a specific set up procedure for the sub?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17310
Registered: May-04
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There's a lot to read in these two threads but there's also a lot of information to be found; https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/698793.html#POST1985168

https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/672623.html


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Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 103
Registered: Apr-06
So, what's the problem integrating the LaFleurs with a sub? I would guess the problem is more getting the sub to integrate with the room. Did you try a specific set up procedure for the sub

I don't know. Both subs I have have the room EQ setups which I utilized. I also tried placing the subs at various locations. As indicated earlier, I tried just about everything including trying a different room. I don't know what else to say. Just figured it was time to try new "full range" speakers based on my results with the Paradigms.}
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14765
Registered: Dec-03
integrating a sub can be difficult. It takes time to find the right positioning, sometimes room treatements, and tuning or dialing in the settings for the sub (phase, XO, etc) so yeah if it isn't set just right it can sound lousy very easily, but I think Jan has it there, that the integration problem was with the setup and not just that they don't work with a sub, period.

A couple of problems I saw with the photo above are that there is no apparent sound treatment done to the room, including the wall behind the monitors for second order reflection, and the speakers are just too close together for good imaging. Do a google image search on speaker positioning and you'll see a lot of diagrams on speaker location and angle in relation to the sweet spot or seating position. They are a good starting poiint for finding the ideal spot for the speakers. Distance apart, distance from the wall and corners, and height all make a big difference in their performance in a given room.

By the way, those are some gorgeous looking monitors there. The shape reminds me a lot of my KEF Q1 monitors.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17311
Registered: May-04
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Without knowing your speakers or hearing your system set up I can only guess at what might have caused the integration problems. My first guess would be the room. My second, third, fourth and fifth guesses would be the room.

On the one thread I linked to you'll find another link which should take you to the ASC website and their page on room modes and null points. It will also discuss the position of your listening chair's influence on sound quality. Setting up a speaker system is more than just putting the speakers "X" distance from a wall. It would be worth your time to do some studying there. A room with such a long dimension in one direction and such a short dimension in another coupled with a very low ceiling height is destined for enormous peaks and valleys with obvious standing waves and slap echoes. The room surfaces are very unlikely to contain bass waves which will make for even more problems. Problems of this magnitude are not going to covered up by automatic room eq. I would guess that in another room of more audio friendly dimensions and construction the pairing would have worked out.

I have to surmise that without any real plan to set up the speakers and sub your chances of success are rather slim. You must attend to the basics of system set up before you begin throwing money at equipment. There is no doubt the room your system is in right now will require somewhat severe room treatments. In fact, any domestic room - even those built from the ground up and with the assistance of an acoustician or someone well trained in the science of sound - will require some degree of absorptive treatments to even out the response of the average domestic audio system. You might as well begin now with your present room and whatever you buy will easily transfer to a new space.



Read those links I provided unless you are still of the mindset that throwing more money at the system before you address the basic issues of the room is your better plan. IMO it is not. You'll find numerous suggestions in those threads for how to go about setting up a room and you can follow the improvements made when those instructions are taken into the room itself. There is also a link - if I remember correctly - to a Decware site which describes setting up a system with minimal room treatments by playing the system on the diagonal of the corners.


If you really want big speakers and you think that's the best way to go before you take care of the overriding room issues, then have at it. But I can't suggest the Gallos are going to be what you think they are in your room.




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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17312
Registered: May-04
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I just saw what is most likely a large portion of your problem integrating a sub with your current speakers, the extremely low sensitivity of the speakers; http://www.soundstagenetwork.com/measurements/speakers/lafleuraudio_x1/

At 81dB your current speakers are among the very lowest sensitivity systems in audio. They are not a difficult load for most amps but most subs you will find on the market will not mate with a speaker that is that low in output per watt. This is a similar problem those of us using LS3/5a mini-monitors faced when we wanted deeper than 50Hz bass extension. The 82dB 3/5a's did not play well with subs meant for the "average" speaker. Add to the sensitivity issues the very "fast" and tuneful sounding woofer of the monitors and subs simply sounded as if they were from another planet. There was a model specific sub eventually built for the 3/5a's.

Possibly I'm wrong about your speakers and the subs you tried but I would certainly think you would have difficulty finding a sub that was the match for $14k, 81dB speakers.


This doesn't mean your room is not in need of attention but from experience I can tell you extremely low sensivity speakers will require an almost model specific subwoofer as an effective mate.


From the on paper measurements of the speakers though, I'd say you'd be taking a step backward in sound quality even going to the Gallos.



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Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2824
Registered: Oct-07
Just based on the measures provided by the OP, the room length bein 3x the width and the length being 4x the height (nearly) are red flags to me about proper bass setup.
Perhaps a multiple sub setup?
81db, indeed. And I thought my panels were of low sensitivity......
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 104
Registered: Apr-06
Thanks for all the information guys. I have some decisions to make in what to do. Your comments have been insightful.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14774
Registered: Dec-03
Some bass management is really cheap and easy to implement as a DIY project. pillows placed in the room corners, or screwed into upper corners, felt covered MDF sheets leaned against the wall behind the speakers, etc.. all make a huge difference.. especially in a room dimensioned as above. Just a thought.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17323
Registered: May-04
Would you be open to padding down the voltage input to a subwoofer? By lowering the voltage running from the pre amp to the sub, you would have more latitude in balancing the output of the sub with the satellites. I'd have to do some digging to find the name of the company, but, if you'd like I can give you a suggestion for a plug in, in line attenuator that's relatively inexpensive - well below $100 - yet satisfactorily neutral for a sub input.

The other alternative would be to call a subwoofer manufacturer for a suggestion regarding which of their products would mate with extremely low sensitivity speakers. REL is the first to come to mind and they might have a sub that will actually work with 81dB speakers without further modification. REL isn't inexpensive but they are considered to be one of the best subwoofer manufacturers on the market today.


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Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2829
Registered: Oct-07
Jan,
could you please elaborate?
Pad DOWN a sub which is already mated to 81db speakers? I know the room's a mess, but really.... pad down?

My sub w/84 or 85db panels is set very low. My room is much less trecherous than the OP's room.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14777
Registered: Dec-03
Leo, 86dB panels? You using Maggies? Sounds like a 1.6 or 1.7
I just auditioned a pair of the big maggies yesterday. I'm thinking about a pair of 1.7s now if I can find a way to make them work in the room I have. It's those or MartinLogans. It's hard to go from my current KEF Reference speakers to panels, losing 6dB of sensitivity and superior off-axis imaging.. but I do like magenplanar and ESL panel sound, and those Maggies are attractively priced.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 105
Registered: Apr-06
My room is much less trecherous than the OP's room.
.....seriously?...... "treacherous"? I don't believe anyone's ever been injured or killed yet due to a reverberated sound wave in my room.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 106
Registered: Apr-06
Some bass management is really cheap and easy to implement as a DIY project. pillows placed in the room corners, or screwed into upper corners, felt covered MDF sheets leaned against the wall behind the speakers, etc.. all make a huge difference.. especially in a room dimensioned as above. Just a thought.

Thanks. Anyone know how to determine at what distances and locations panels are best located?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17324
Registered: May-04
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Pad down the input voltage coming to the sub, leo. The issue with mating very low sensitivity speakers to powered subs is the sub will begin at an output level which is best suited to speakers with an "average" electrical sensitivity. This places the sub's lowest output level well above that of a well out of the ordinary 81dB sensitive speaker system. Pad down the voltage into the sub and there will be more adjustable range on the powered sub's controls.




Head to those two links I gave you above. They have all the information required to start you on a path to understanding room treatments. As I said, the one thread follows another forum member as he treated his room and found the basic mistakes and successes common to room tretaments.

I have to seriously disagree with Glasswolf though about the efficacy of pillows and felt covered MDF sheets, though I fully expect he will say they worked wonders for his system. There are some very basic materials you can use to first test the placement of panels and traps but they are no stand-in for those materails which are far superior to, say, crumpled newspaper in a box. There are basic diy materials you can purchase for less money than a product from ASC if you are handy with basic tools and have the time and space to commit to their construction. However, the science of acoustic treatment is such that it is a science and screwing a pillow to your wall isn't going to accomplish the same effect as will a dedicated trap or absorption panel using the best materials available for the job. That is not to say you must turn your domestic listening room into a laboratory of acoustic treatments, use of common materials is the supplement to, but not the substitute for, real world solutions.

When it comes to low frequencies, due to the size of the pressure wave you are trying to affect size (diameter or thickness) and materials are of the highest importance. "Pillows" just are not going to be sufficient and felt on a highly reflective sheet of MDF IMO isn't going to benefit anything. On the other end of the spectrum, due to the very small wavelengths of the upper frequencies, selection of materials must be based on what will allow, say, a 15kHz wave to pass through and into the materials for absorption or diffusion rather than simply being reflected back into the room untreated. No manufacturer of pillows that I am aware of takes these values into consideration.

Also, as you'll see when you take the time to read the threads, absorption by itself is very broadband and has a tendency to remove much of the life from the music just to affect that 80Hz +24dB peak in your room's response. Effective room treatments, IMO, are a careful blending of the three values you have to work with in acoustics; reflection, absorption and diffusion. Ignore one of those values and lots of dollars put into room treatments can actually degrade the performance of your system.

Each room and each system must be taken on an individual basis and, while generic rules and laws of physics for acoustics and wave transmission apply, it is only when you take the time to consider just how your speakers react to your room at the placement you have selected for your listening position that they become more than a generic plan.

My advice, read the threads and go to the articles and websites linked in those threads. You cannot head into room treatments with a thimble full of information.


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Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1872
Registered: Oct-10
Bluemark, I've been reading this thread for a while and 2 things occurred to me.

1. Is it possible to move the subwoofer out of the corner? That corner will re-enforce the bass BIG TIME!

2. I can't tell by the picture, but how is the sub connected? Is it at the speaker level or using a sub/LFE output via rca/coax cable? If it's the latter, there should be a subwoofer level control in your preamp that you could trim a little.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1874
Registered: Oct-10
Also Bluemark, sometimes, it just takes a while to integrate a sub. If the room acoustics are bad or the sub and speakers don't seem to like each other, it can take days. The key is to be patient and not give up. One of my neighbors has (or had last I knew) the opposite problem that you have. He had very sensitive speakers that his brother had DIYed for him. After lots of moving the sub around, adjusting, the level and adjusting the crossover, we ended up putting his sub in the corner to his left/rear, setting the crossover at 50 hz and setting the level at about 3:00 position. It sounded great! We tried quite a few pieces of music to be sure. After wasting a 3 day weekend on this, we breathed a sigh of relief. So, don't give up on the monitors just yet.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 107
Registered: Apr-06
Superjazzy:

Too late, the Lafleur monitors are gone. But, to answer your question, the location of the sub was just one of many locations tried throughout the room. I have a 25' coax cable connected to the subs LFE that allowed me to move it just about anywhere. Each time the sub was moved, I tried different crossover points and had a checklist of what sounded best at each location. The coax was connected to the line level out on my Simaudio amp. It does not have separate bass management/crossover features built into it, so I make all the adjustments on the sub. I wish I only wasted a 3 day weekend on it so I think its fair to say, I was more than patient. I think as other members have stated, it may be a matter of treating the room. I just don't want to do a great deal or spend much as the room is relatively temporary until we build.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1875
Registered: Oct-10
So, the Simaudio amp doesn't even have a level control for the sub? That's kind of odd.

I agree that it doesn't make sense to put money into a room in a house that you'll soon be vacating and I guess you have been more than patient.

I hope you have a much easier time integrating the sub with the new speakers, especially in your new house.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 108
Registered: Apr-06
Superjazzy:

Not odd at all. It is not a home theater processor/receiver. The line level out is controlled by the volume setting on the amp so once the sub is set up properly, as you adjust the volume on the amp, it proportionately controls the level fed to the sub. I'm not sure what else you would need. On the other hand, my Anthem D2v has full bass management features including x-over built into it. But it is part of my home theater system whereas my Simaudio i7 is intended only for 2 channel audio.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1876
Registered: Oct-10
Well Bluemark, my receiver is a stereo unit with sub out (2.1 channels) and it has a level control for the sub and speakers (labeled "channel balance"). So, once set, the volume of the speakers and sub go up and down together. This would come in handy with a sub that's so miss matched to the monitors. You could set the sub out lower on the amp and fine tune it with the level control on the sub.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 109
Registered: Apr-06
Superjazzy:

Not odd at all. It is not a home theater processor/receiver. The line level out is controlled by the volume setting on the amp so once the sub is set up properly, as you adjust the volume on the amp, it proportionately controls the level fed to the sub. I'm not sure what else you would need. On the other hand, my Anthem D2v has full bass management features including x-over built into it. But it is part of my home theater system whereas my Simaudio i7 is intended only for 2 channel audio.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14778
Registered: Dec-03
"Thanks. Anyone know how to determine at what distances and locations panels are best located?"

quote:
"Ultimately the Magneplanar panels were moved farther forward, now six feet away from the back wall. The speakers are approximately 8' in front of me and turned facing the sides of my chair. In this is set up the speakers are less affected by the room boundaries and the objects in the room. They are now toed inward about 10 degrees and still 8 feet in front of me. The imaging at the center stage is rock solid. Even standing directly in the center between the speakers, I could clearly hear the center portion of the stereo image."

source
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0511/magnepan_mg_1_7.htm

This is some good advice for a starting point. 6' in, 10 degree toe-in, They need space bbetween the back of the panel, and the first order reflective surface behind them in order for the di-pole function to work properly.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14779
Registered: Dec-03
Also, It sounds like the sub confusion is possibly stemming from the term "level control on the sub" actually meaning "on the plate amp built into the sub" and what sounds like bluemark may be using a sub with an external rack-mount type amp to drive it. Just a mix-up in communication, but the amp itself does have the level control in either case, yes.

Jan, the pillows and board were just some overly simplified examples, neither of which I personalyl use. The point wasjust that you can do bass management and acoustic treatment on the cheap with a little DIY effort. No need to drop thousands of dollars on bass traps and what not from audio-specific companies and dealers, and you can still get similar results in most cses with a little research on materials and placement specific to your situation.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2830
Registered: Oct-07
Get it.....

Glass.... maggies may be low sensitivity, but don't let that fool 'ya. Because of the nature of the beast they actually couple into a room differently than a box. The side node 'nulls' mean the radiation pattern is kind of a figure '8'. Add to that the backwave, and maggies really do not act like whatever they are rated at. The loudness also doesn't decay as quickly as box speakers with distance.
Setup is a PIA, so make sure you can get 4' or 5' behind 'em. Than the discussion about tweeters 'in' or 'out' and even pole piece forward or back, can begin.
Maggies will never be considered hi sensitivity, but it's not as bad as the (approx) Magnepan measure. Also, most panel owners over estimate how much power they'll need. The big 'd' amps are popular, but many owners report fine results with tubes. They are an 'easy' load of low reactivity.

My stereo integrated has no bass management, either....just a pair of pre-outs for either sub or full-range.
I think you'll find that the majority of stereo..integrateds and preamps do not have such bass management features. The first pre so equiped that I saw a picture of, was the Emotiva preamp.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 110
Registered: Apr-06
Well Bluemark, my receiver is a stereo unit with sub out (2.1 channels) and it has a level control for the sub and speakers (labeled "channel balance"). So, once set, the volume of the speakers and sub go up and down together. This would come in handy with a sub that's so miss matched to the monitors. You could set the sub out lower on the amp and fine tune it with the level control on the sub.

So it's really no difference that the line level out that I'm using, other than it's labeled differently and it sounds like you can set the sub level on your receiver where I do it on the sub. In both our cases, once set, both are controlled through the amp or receiver's volume control. Most of the higher end 2 ch amps I'm familiar with have the line level out similar to what's on my Sim, but again, not much different from what you describe on yours.

This is no different than the Pathos amp I had prior to the Sim.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1877
Registered: Oct-10
Actually GW, by "on the sub", I was refering to the level control at the input of the sub's amp.

Bluemark, I know this is probably a little confusing, but I am refering to 2 subwoofer level controls. My receiver is NOT a HT receiver, but a 2 channel (or 2.1) designed and used primarily for music, not movies. It has a subwoofer level control built into it. Again, this is STEREO, as in TWO channels, NOT 5.1 or more.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1878
Registered: Oct-10
Okay, I guess disregard my last post. I didn't see your last till after posting my last.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 111
Registered: Apr-06
Super:

Oh boy, I think I know the difference between 2 ch and 5.1 or more. I certainly did not mean to be rude in my response, as that seems to be the way you took it based on your reply. I am merely stating what my amp has. Perhaps it is not as feature laden as what yours has, but I did not purposely go looking for an amp with a sub level control built into it as both my subs have that capability (Velodyne DD15 and Optimum 8) and with a line level out, I did not feel the need. I am using the Optimum 8 in my 2 channel (STEREO) system but I have tried the DD15 for kicks as well. As indicated earlier, I am using a single coax cable from one of the line level outs on my 2 ch STEREO amp to the LFE in on my sub. Once the x-over is set, I can manually set the sub up by ear or use it's auto room EQ setting. Once set, I should not have to set anything else other than adjust the volume on my 2 ch STEREO amp which will adjust the volume to my speakers and sub together.

I don't believe I am confused.

As leo also indicated: I think you'll find that the majority of stereo..integrateds and preamps do not have such bass management features. .....so I don't believe my amp is unusual or perhaps I am confused.

Are we off topic or what?
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 112
Registered: Apr-06
Ditto
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1879
Registered: Oct-10
Actually Bluemark, I did not feel that you were being rude at all. Unfortunately, tone of voice does not translate in typed form.

Your one post shows up twice for some reason (internet glitch?) which led me to believe you'd missed the point about my system being stereo. Btw, one of the reasons I chose this receiver is because it's NOT feature laden. The signal path is quite simple. Otherwise, it just a little confusion caused by bad timing.

Cheerio!
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1880
Registered: Oct-10
Another issue is that every time I tried to emphasize a point using italics, bold or underline, I got some hoaky message about code such 'n' such needs a valid arguement. So, I was forced to use caps.

The only reason I can even post today is because it's a super dead day. I could access this forum via the computer on my desk, but the company has blocks on "non-essential" sites. My choices were post here or stare out the office window at my house (yeah, I live that close to work) wishing I was there, but in order to get paid, I gotta be here. So, I have to post via "smart" phone. IMO, rotary dial was much smarter. It only ever tried to be a phone. Nothing more.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 113
Registered: Apr-06
No worries...agree with loss of tone in written form. Out of curiosity, what receiver do you have?
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1881
Registered: Oct-10
Denon, DRA-397
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17326
Registered: May-04
.

May I ask how we got onto Magneplanars? I see no reference to Magneplanars as the new speaker in the system.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1884
Registered: Oct-10
Leo, if I ever get a chance to audition Magnaplanars, I'll jump at it. Whether I'll like sound or not, I'm sure they are an interesting listen if nothing else.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 114
Registered: Apr-06
Jan:

That seems to be a quite common occurrence. Might as well change topics though as I don't know how much more of "my room is crap" that I can take!
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2831
Registered: Oct-07
I was responding to GW #14777 and later to #14778

My point was that while Maggies are considered low sensitivity, and they are, it is not that bad because of the line source behavior.
Give 'em room to breathe, too, and above all you should experiment with setup. The Sole hard /fast rule is to keep 'em away from the back wall and DO use some toe.
This isn't meant to be the maggie setup guide, but following the above rule is a good start....than you must optimize for YOUR space.

And Super, yes, by all means try to listen to some. They've been in production with continuous refinement for about 40 years. The new stuff is clearly related to the originals. Also, the Timpani series are considered classic speakers and will hold up well against most recent speakers. The DIY guys have a field day with Magnepan, too.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14780
Registered: Dec-03
I do find it a bit hard to believe that maggies are not a highly reactive, difficult load on an amp, since they work much the same way as an electrostatic panel, which is by definition about the most reactive, difficult load you'll find as speakers go.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1888
Registered: Oct-10
"That seems to be a quite common occurrence. Might as well change topics though as I don't know how much more of "my room is crap" that I can take!"

I agree! Subjects do change within a thread often and there's no sense continuing to bash a room that you won't even have much longer.

"I do find it a bit hard to believe that maggies are not a highly reactive, difficult load on an amp, since they work much the same way as an electrostatic panel, which is by definition about the most reactive, difficult load you'll find as speakers go."

I've heard stranger truths GW.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17327
Registered: May-04
.

"I do find it a bit hard to believe that maggies are not a highly reactive, difficult load on an amp, since they work much the same way as an electrostatic panel, which is by definition about the most reactive, difficult load you'll find as speakers go."


No, they don't operate in any significant way like an electrostatic panel beyond the fact they are large, thin and radiate in a (generally) bipolar pattern. Magneplanars are "magnetic planars", which means they are essentially a conventional loudspeaker diaphragm flattened out with the voice coil un-rolled. There is no constant charge on a magnetic planar's surface and, hence, no ultra high voltages, arcing, power supplies or input transformers to screw with the amp. The ribbon mid/high frequerncy drivers are not always kind to every amplifier, but they are a consistent load - if a rising inductive load - unlike most ESL's which are a combination of inductive and capacitive loading. Compared to an electrostatic system, magnetic planars are a rather simple load on even a decent high quality, high current receiver.




.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17328
Registered: May-04
.

What speakers are going to replace the monitors?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2832
Registered: Oct-07
Maggies, with the (only) possible exception of the 2 hi-end models, which are priced at 5500$ and 13000$ respectively, ARE indeed a fairly easy, if somewhat low sensitivity load. The Ribbon tweeter on the 2 upper models being somewhat 'rising inductive', as Jan states, is mitigated by the lower power requirement as frequency rises.

Everything below the flagship ribbon models are easy to drive.

My orignal MG-1s were almost 5 ohm resistive.....and could be driven fairly by a 60x2 (@8) Kenwood integrated of the '80s. Later, when I went for power, I used a Carver Cube to great effect.

And while maggies do indeed radiate in a 'bipole pattern', they are Dipole in that they front/rear wave 180's out of phase. This produces the notorious side cancelation whereby if you put your ear to the edge of the panel, you hear ........NOTHING since the front / rear wave cancels at that point.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 115
Registered: Apr-06
What speakers are going to replace the monitors?

Jan: I assume that is directed to me? If so, I pulled the trigger on the Anthony Gallo 3.5's yesterday. We'll wait and see how they fair in my "treacherous" room.

I may regret it in the short term, but I have to think down the road for the new house. I think there are likely some relatively cheap things I can do in the meantime to improve the acoustics of my existing room. I have also sent a drawing of my room to AG to get their comments/feedback/suggestions.}
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1891
Registered: Oct-10
I find it amazing how many different ways there to get sound that pleases at least some people.

My Omnisats, a very different design from the Maggies to be sure, incorporate a top firing hard dome tweeter with a dispersion unit directly above it. The tweeter is mounted in a dispersion unit that sits directly above the bass/mid driver's phase plug. This design gives the speaker 360° dispersion. They're less than. 3 feet apart and I sit about 10 feet from them, but the stereo imaging is great! I just have to keep them away from highly reflective surfaces.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14782
Registered: Dec-03
Magnetic planars and electrostatics are fairly similar in operating prinicple. I suspect the reason for the difference in load complexity is most likely either due to the mag-planar speakers using a 3-way design with separate tweeters, whereas the ESL panels cover everything from about 500Hz up on their own, or due to the need for the electrostatic high-voltage charge required by the ESL. I'll definitely look into it more, however.

"The term Quasi Ribbon refers to a fabrication technique that differs from a true ribbon in that the conductive metal is laminated to a thin sheet of Mylar film. The super tweeter in the [Magnepan0 is improved by bonding the conductive aluminum foil to a much thinner Mylar backing. The Magneplanar concept is similar to an electrostatic speaker in that both produce sound by moving a membrane of (Mylar) film to generate pressure waves. Both of these designs are referred to as Dipole speakers. This is because the sound emanating from the speaker radiates in equal amounts from both the front and the back of the panels. The most important difference is that the Magneplanar design does not require a Hi-Voltage electrostatic charge to move the Mylar film. [An] Electrostatic speaker has a separate Hi-Voltage transformer power supply in the base of each speaker. In the Magneplanar design, the magnetic field is generated by an array of closely spaced permanent magnets. The Mylar film has thin conductive wires or metal foil ribbon attached directly to the Mylar surface. The audio signal that moves the Mylar membrane in all of the [Magneplanar] designs is applied directly to the now conductive metalized Mylar film."
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 116
Registered: Apr-06
Wow, I guess I best change the topic of this post.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17329
Registered: May-04
.
"What speakers are going to replace the monitors?

Jan: I assume that is directed to me?"



Yeah, I was hoping to get the discussion back on something that mattered to the thread rather than spending time discussing speakers you don't own and don't intend to own.




And, while I hate to do this, "Magnetic planars and electrostatics are fairly similar in operating prinicple."



Only in that they are both large panels. Beyond that, there are no significant similarities. Pay attention to what Maneplanar says are the similarities and differences between the two systems.

Glasswolf, read your copy again and you might detect the distinct differences which I pointed out earlier; the magnetic planars require no power supply, no high voltage and no transformers or capacitors at the input of the speaker to screw with the amplifier's loading. The similarities are; the two systems are both (generally) dipole radiators, they are large and they are thin panels. Beyond those three "like" values, there is no similarity between an electrostatic driver and a magnetic planar driver. The low frequency panel of the magnetic planar is a very simple and benign load since it represents nothing more than a single dynamic driver. The ribbons which reproduce upper frequencies in most Magneplanar systems are somewhere between the two concepts and they represent the more difficult portion of the system's load.

Additionally, the Quad ESL's have been unlike the Martin Logans for about three decades now in that they are divided into segments which cover specific frequency bands. Other lesser known and past electrostatic designs have done more or less what Quad has designed since the distribution of frequency bands over specific areas of the electrosatic panels aids in the preservation of time and phase information. I won't say Martin Logan is the only electrostatic design which is run essentially full range from its low frequency limits to its upper frequency limits without this segmentation of work but it is the only electrostatic I am presently aware of which does so.


If you would care to discuss the differences between speakers types, how about another thread instead of pulling this one apart with stuff that doesn't matter to the op?



.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1892
Registered: Oct-10
I've heard the Martin Logans and they sound good at high volumes. Unfortunately, at the low to moderate volumes that I like, they're rather dead. Provided Maggies sound good in the low to mod range, I'd choose them over MLs any day!
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 117
Registered: Apr-06
Yup, ordered the 3.5's.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 118
Registered: Apr-06
Didn't get the Maggies or the ML. Didn't much care for either so AG 3.5's it is.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1894
Registered: Oct-10
So Bluemark, what didn't like about Magnaplanars? Just out of curiousity.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1895
Registered: Oct-10
Oops! What didn't you like about them?
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 119
Registered: Apr-06
I'm sure this will spark some angry comments, but you asked, and this is my opinion only. They are very popular for a reason, but just not for me.
First of all, and total matter of taste, ugly as anything. Although I must admit, they are getting better looking.
Second, placement. As you know, I don't have much room to play with placement of speakers.
Third, I found they were lacking lower bass detail.
Fourth, to me, they lacked dynamics and therefore were void of emotion. Keep in mind, I enjoy rock music as well.
Upper detail and imagining are captivating and they are incredibly coherent.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1896
Registered: Oct-10
Nothing wrong with stating your opinion. We all have opinions. Your take on Maggies is very different from Leo's, but it also seems that Leo's room is much more accomodating of them than yours is. Thanks for your thoughts on them though. I always like to hear from both sides (those that like a given product and those who don't).

How speaker looks has little to do with how it sounds or whether or not I would buy it, as long as it doesn't look like a big old pile of cow p**p. That would be going too far. Lol! I wouldn't have chosen my omnisats based on their looks. They're neat looking now that I am used to them. First time I saw them, I thought they were downright weird! I don't care what other people think about how they look. I am the only audiophile in the house. My wife and sons are rarely in the music room at all. If guest don't like them, they know where the front door is.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 120
Registered: Apr-06
Super:

I did not hear the Maggies in my living space. The last time I heard them, was in a dedicated room in an audio shop. I also listened to a pair of ML's on the weekend which I liked until I heard a pair of totem Tribes they had on hand next to them. What a dynamic, detailed and fun speaker. If you have a chance, I recommend a listen, but only after they are broken in as I also heard a brand new pair of the Totem Earth's that were very tight and congested. The salesman indicated the Tribes were much the same at first, so if the Earths are anything like the Tribes once broken in, I can only imagine how good they are. It was the first time I saw the Totem Element line in person and until then, I questioned the look. However, in person, they are actually quite stunning.

That being said, the looks of the speaker is important to me, although they have to sound great too. I suspect the AG's are not the prettiest speakers to many, but I (and my wife), think they are downright cool looking. To each his own though.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1898
Registered: Oct-10
Okay, wrong term used. Those are deflectors dispersing the sound on the Omnisats.

Personally, I find the Omnis to be quite amazing. I'd recommend anyone give them a listen.

Bluemark, I'm guessing those Totems were out of your price range? Or were they too large for your current room. Perhaps in the new house?
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 121
Registered: Apr-06
Actually, the Totem Earths were one of the speakers I was interested in. My budget was $10,000. I did not have a chance to compare the Totems with the AG's but did discuss them with a couple of places that sold both. Both recommended the AG's over the Totems as well as others they carried at much higher price tags. So, if the AG's are better than what I heard coming from the Totems, I will be very very pleased.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1900
Registered: Oct-10
I hope they do sound great! Enjoy!
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 122
Registered: Apr-06
I previously asked a question about placement of acoustical panels. I found this on ATS Acoustics website for anyone that is interested:

Q: Where should I place the panels in the room?

A: In general, where you place the panels in the room is not critical. A visually pleasant appearance is often the guiding factor in placement. The most important thing is simply to get the total square footage of panels into the room somewhere. No matter where you place them, the panels will soak up the extra sound that is bouncing off every surface in the room.

That said, we do have a couple of non-critical guidelines for acoustic panel placement. First, you get more absorption per square foot of panel when the panel is placed in or near a corner. Said another way, you'll need slightly fewer panels in your room if you place some of them in or near corners.

Second, if there is a primary source of sound in the room, such as speakers at one place in the room, it's a good idea to place panels at first reflection points. These are places where the sound can come from the source, bounce once, and reach the listener. For example, on the side walls of a listening room approximately midway between the listener and the speakers. This is because sound that reaches the listener after traveling an indirect path arrives just a little later than sound that came directly. This means your brain has to sort out multiple copies of the same sound, making things sound less clear and making speech more difficult to understand. Adding panels at the first reflection points reduces the late-arriving sound so your brain can focus on one clear copy of the sound.
}
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 123
Registered: Apr-06
And here is an excellent article:

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_4/feature-article-acoustic-treatment-me thods-and-materials-12-2004-part-1.html
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17331
Registered: May-04
.


You're offering that basically incorrect informaton for approval? Comment? Our education?





A "panel" located in a corner is all but ineffective unless the high frequency content you are trying to affect is congesting in the corner. The chances of that happening are extremely small. In most situations, by the time the high frequency pressure wave actually encounters a corner, it's amplitude will have diminished significantly and probably to the point where a panel is totally unnecessary and competely ineffective on a cost per benefit basis.

Corners represent a conjunction of surfaces which primarily reflect the longest waves of the bass region. Due to the tri-corner effect of floor/wall/wall or ceiling/wall/wall the pressure waves are reflected not directly back toward the listening space but rather toward each other which creates a series of high/low pressure zones boosting selected frequencies by as much as +30dB and cutting other frequencies by an equal amount. While it is virtually impossible to treat the average domestic listening room for adequate control of frequencies lower than approx. 80Hz (most domestic rooms will be hard pressed to actually control frequency response beneath about 150Hz), you will none the less need a very large (48"+ trap) to begin to deal with the 20'-30' wavelengths created by the lowest three octaves of music. Possibly you read the information differently than I do but I see the issue as one of strategic placement of the most minimal amount of traps and panels carefully and thoughtfully mixed with effective diffusion systems to create; first, a "frequency neutral" room which has minimal variations in response at the listener's ears (unless you stand and walk around while listening, I don't care about any room location other than the selected listening area), and, second, a space which is not so overwhelmed by absorption materials that it lacks the information captured in the recording which brings the life, detail and emotional connection to the performance.

Therefore, I read, "No matter where you place them, the panels will soak up the extra sound that is bouncing off every surface in the room", as less than an intelligent guide to proper room design. I want to preserve the "extra sound", not remove it as an afterthought nor treat it as a casualty of shock and awe war.

The only statement in that group of ideas which I can have agreement with is ... uh ... um ... well, reading it again I can find nothing I can actually agree with.


My advice here is to be very careful about where you gather your information. Take even my advice with a large, large container of rock salt. However, having worked with acoustians on projects large and small and having been responsible for setting up numerous systems over the years for clients, I have seen more hocus-pocus BS in room treatments than I have in any other area of audio including cables and isolation products, both of which are rife with solutions to problems which could not occur in a consumer audio system or are absolutelty ineffective and overpriced. Please note, I am a firm believer in both cables and isolation systems as a path to better quality music reproduction. However, I see most people buying a product without making the slightest effort to understand what might actually work in their specific situation and instead relying on the "that looks good" methodlogy of making purchasing decisions. My responsibility has been to use other people's money in the most effective manner and the "that looks good" school of lowest bidder wasn't how I went about doing my job.

ASC began the serious efffort of bringing acoustic treatments into the consumer audio field and, based upon their financial and product success, many imitators have followed. For the most part these imitators have no background in the science of acoustics, they are merely taking the products which ASC created and trying to sell a cheap copy for less money. Fine as far as money goes, the ASC products are not magic and a diy'er can replicate them with good results for less money. But give ASC their due please. I am personally aware of one company's owner who lacks any formal education in acoustics yet has set himself up as the self-described guru of the art. I am not trying to make acoustics out to be something mysterious or difficult to understand, overall the rules are rather simple and repeatable from system to system. But when you have companies which suggest a quantity will eventually absorb whatever "extra sound" is in the room approach over a well planned and strategic placement of appropriate materials, then I have a problem with that thinking.

I would once again suggest you read those two linked threads. They are not the be-all and end-all of acoustics advice but they are carefully chosen to keep you away from the hucksters and the know nothings.

I would further advise you to consider the obvious fact the Gallos are substantially dissimilar speakers to anything presently on the market and, therefore, require a speaker/room specific approach to achieving good integration into any room if the final desire remains the highest quality of music reproduction. Not to be snarky but, you've rather mindlessly thrown money at a problem you either refused to acknowledge or did not undertand how to solve since you began, well, throwing money at your system. You've now taken your $10k budget and purchased speakers without a careful audition? Is that correct?

I understand you have other threads in other forums and I suspect there are folks over on those other forums who would be happy to assist you in spending even more of your money. I am personally running out of suggestions if you won't take the time to read those two threads.








.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 124
Registered: Apr-06
Jan:
I appreciate the time you have taken to provide the information you have and I HAVE read the information in the links you provided. But, those are not the only bits of information I have read and I thought it was fair to post some of the other information I've read up on as well. I guess it is up to each individual to take from it what they will. Obviously, from your comments, you do not think it is worthwhile.

In terms of auditioning speakers, it is not an easy task for me as I live in a city that only has the big box store type of cheaper audio gear. So to have an in house audition of various speakers or gear that might be available to someone like yourself, in a city the size of Dallas, with probably many hi-end audio stores, well, it just doesn't happen here. The nearest store to me that carries higher end gear is a 5 to 6 hour drive away and they are just not willing to see their gear leave the city for in house auditions. And I'm not willing to make multiple trips to do so.

Other than the reasons mentioned above in integrating my existing speakers into the room, the other factor at play for me was the WAF. The Lafleurs were not her favourite item to look at to put it mildly, which I could never figure out. Therefore, to keep the peace and since I was having difficulty integrating them anyway, I agreed to find a speaker that met the WAF. Surprisingly, the AG's did.

So its easy to sit back and say I blindly throw money at my system in the hopes that I magically hit the jackpot of audio nirvana and I guess I'm fortunate enough to be able to do it, but believe me, there are other factors at play that I have to consider when purchasing a system and access to audition gear, let alone the ability to get gear are big ones, with the WAF being the biggest in my household. So, this is where I try to gain some knowledge and information through forums such as this. I will admit, you have been the ONLY one on here that has provided any worthwhile information while others all go off on a tangent without providing any constructive information other than my room sucks! I have not even approached the topic of placing panels on the walls yet, but I suspect that is not going to have a high WAF either. It's funny how rooms that have been designated as a guys music room migrates into a family room that must have female decorating input. Why do you think I started this post? It is because I do acknowledge I have a room problem.....some would even call it "treacherous".

One of the reasons I purchased the Gallos is that the dealer, knowing my situation, is offering to take them back in exchange for something else if they don't work out. Not many of the other dealers that I was in discussions with would offer such a deal.

So let's be fair here. I don't have the benefits of the big city access, nor the freedom to do what I want or purchase anything I want, so I work with the parameters I'm confined to and do the best I can.

Also, don't assume that because I posted other information I happened to find online, that I didn't read the information you obviously took the time to provide to me. You, yourself indicated they are not the be-all, end-all on the topic, so I have also read other articles. Perhaps they all don't provide all the correct information, but at least I'm reading what I can in an attempt to learn and improve things where I can.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Glasswolf

Columbia, South Carolina America

Post Number: 14784
Registered: Dec-03
In regards to your auditioning of the MartinLogans, Superjazzy, which model did you audition? I've found your commentary on them to be relevant to the smaller models that do not have integrated amplifiers for the low-end portion of the speakers. The larger models with the self-amplified woofer cabinets are much stronger, even at low volumes. I'm just curious.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1901
Registered: Oct-10
GW,

I don't recall which model the MLs were, but they only about 2 1/2 to 3 feet tall and I don't recall any mention of the woofer's being powered. All I can tell you is that the model I heard wasn't for me.

If the larger models do well at low volumes, that would make them candidates if I ever have a larger music room. Right now, the little Omnisats and little S8 sub are just the ticket.

Bluemark,

Sounds to me like you need a room that is not attached to your house like a one room building out back or something. This could be expensive and may not be feasible, but if you can get such an arrangement, it would be good. Aside from playing music that my wife doesn't like and being more into music than TV, I also listen at low to moderate volumes. Moderate is too loud for her. I also keep the room what is in her opinion, ugly. Doing this maintains the music room as what is. We have a family room in which we all watch movies together. Over more than 20 years married, we worked all this out.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17333
Registered: May-04
.

Then I appreciate the time you took to do some reading. That however makes the information you copied seem all the more ... remarkable. Not that I or others can't be wrong but that those who have done this for long periods of time and have had substantial success in their endeavors would be unlikely to agree with the concept of "extra sound" being absorbed as a good plan. There are numerous methods for achieving "good sound" just as there are numerous descriptions of "good sound" from various listeners. In those linked articles I provided I mentioned the company RealTraps. Having personally dealt with the owner of the company I understand the goal of acoustic treatments for RealTraps is to have the flattest overall frequency response which can be accomplished in any domestic or professional situation. Due to my personal experience with this company and their particular relationship with a few magazine editors I have heard on more than one occasion and from listener's whose ears I trust the sentiments expressed in this review of RealTrap's products, "I've visited Ethan Winer's main listening room and studio, and my suspicion is that both are overdampedâ€"his living room, which serves as a demonstration venue for every product RealTraps makes, more so than his studio. Maybe it's just me, but in Winer's living room, I wondered if I could detect differences between components, so powerfully was I aware of the acoustic environment."; http://www.stereophile.com/content/realtraps-room-treatments-page-2 As a side note, Winer is a pure objectivist who believes in measurements as the only arbitter of "good sound"; cables are cables and anyone who buys into cables is an "audiophool" and his pre amp of choce is a $150 Pioneer receiver - a fact he is quite proud to announce to anyone willing to give him the time of day. Look at the photos of his completed projects and you be the judge as to whether this would meet the SAF you face.



There is little need for domestic rooms to be overwhelmed by acoustic treatments though the acceptance of some degree of room correction is required for any domestic listening environment.

That is a fact anyone seeking high quality music reproduction in a domestic listening room must sooner or later face.


Many of the requirements for good sound can be designed into a room being built from the ground up. Once you are trying to retro-fit to an existing room the need for some assitance becomes more pressing. And, the simple question you need to consider is; after investing multiples of tens of thousands of dollars in equipment and speakers, what is the weakest link in your search for high quality music reproduction? The answer will always be, the room. Either you address those problems head on or you do not. If you select not to look for the quality of music you have paid for in your equipment selection, then you will never have truly high quality sound no matter how much more money you spend or how many more changes you make to the system.

I can't help you with spouse acceptance factor though I can tell you this is a consistent issue with all but the most ardent man cave owners. As I have said, domestic rooms can be assisted by domestic equivalents to certain materials but they are not a substitute for the science of well applied acoustics. In your purchase of the Gallos you have selected, IMO, one of the more difficult to get right speakers on the high end market. I am only here to give you guidance on equipment and, possibly, how to think about certain issues facing most audio enthusiasts. Everything else is up to you. Again, not to be snarky but you've purchased the Gallos with the hope of good sound. What are you expecting from a speaker you have not auditioned in your room?

It's great to have a dealer who is willing to work with a client. Most of that sort of customer service has been driven out of the market by the on line price cutters. Sadly, you are wrong about the number of decent audio shops in a "big city" such as Dallas. Many Dallas residents with the means to purchase high end audio gear would rather do so in New York, Los Angeles or Chicago and then have someone come down to Dallas for two weeks of installation and set up which will impress their friends. For the seventh largest city in the US, Dallas lacks many things and decent audio dealers would be among the items we could use more of. But, then I used to sell high end audio in Dallas and possibly I am just being overly critical of a market affected by the economics of Dallas. I don't think so, and I am constantly reminded of the shop which would not hook up a DAC for audition until they had checked my past buying record with their company. "Maybe" if I brought in my equipment, they could find the time to make a comparison. That sort of assistance is worse than none.



"So its easy to sit back and say I blindly throw money at my system in the hopes that I magically hit the jackpot of audio nirvana and I guess I'm fortunate enough to be able to do it, but believe me, there are other factors at play that I have to consider when purchasing a system and access to audition gear, let alone the ability to get gear are big ones, with the WAF being the biggest in my household."


"So let's be fair here. I don't have the benefits of the big city access, nor the freedom to do what I want or purchase anything I want, so I work with the parameters I'm confined to and do the best I can."



So let's be fair and realize the vast majority of us cannot do as we please with what we please when we please. You are not the first person with whom I've dealt seeking good advice for a good sounding result. Therefore, my above admonitions still apply. No one is likely to be injured or even seriously offended in your "treacherous" room. Your room, however, will remain the one component you have not dealt with until you do, it will be the weakest link in the chain and it will continually remind you of its presence as the weakest link.




Once again, thanks for taking the time to read the threads, how do we proceed to make your room work for you?



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Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 125
Registered: Apr-06
Well, my original post included three items. One was to find out if anyone had experience with Simaudio and AG. Two was in using the AG's in my room; and, three was in using the AG's for my musical tastes.

You did address all three, but heeding concern with item #2. In reading up on some of the information available, including the info you provided, I figured there was something effective that could be done to inexpensively, yet tastefully, treat the room to accommodate these speakers. (again referring to the reasons I went with them from above). I did look into the RealTraps site as well.

So, now that the speakers will be a reality within a week or two, I guess what I will need assistance with is properly setting up and treating the room.

The suggestion by Superjazz of building an "outhouse" for my music room is not in the cards. I think that is called "divorce", and I like to think what we are doing is making sacrifices to accommodate each other. Perhaps I'm sacrificing more from our opinions, but she might not agree.

Anyway, would it be best to wait until the speakers actually arrive or is there anything that can be done before they arrive? Perhaps I can sketch out the room with furniture locations and all and post on here for a more detailed look at what I'm dealing with as done by others?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2834
Registered: Oct-07
Blue: NOW do you see why I used the word 'treacherous'?
I had my original panels in maybe 8 or 10 different rooms in the 20+ years I owned them. I got very acquainted with how to set them up and eventually got quite good at getting an optimum setup in any room in which I had my stereo. And, since the panels were clearly marked 'left' and 'right', I even broke that 'rule' a few times....and it helped. I'm talking about a room 10x11x8 all the way up to a gigantic 2 story living room, with balcony and a dining room sep'd from the LR by 2 arched doorways. I put the speakers in front of the doors since I had 100% freedom to do whatever. The backwave took so long getting out of that space and it was so well mixed that it just added ambience. An amazing space.

My suggestion would be to begin reading up on room setup and treatment. Find out what 'first reflection' points are. Begin checking with the spouse on what would be acceptable limits for room modifications and setup. Negotiate. I know the problem with compromise is that it's compromise, but I'm guessing you'd like to stay married and not end up living in your car!

By all means sketch the room. Google Sketchup is a freebie and good for all it does right. I pre-build all my wood projects in sketchup before even buying a slice of lumber.

As for an additional 'outhouse'. No need to go to that extent, though a properly designed room addition works wonders. Building costs these days for a regular room are about 150$ per sq/ft so figure upwards from that.
 

Gold Member
Username: Superjazzyjames

Post Number: 1903
Registered: Oct-10
Getting divorced? No Bluemark, I was certainly NOT (phone again) suggesting that you isolate yourself from the family. Most weekdays, I get maybe an hour tops to listen to music. On Wednesdays I get none due to choir practice. On Sat & Sun, I might get a couple of hours, maybe.

Anyone who stays married any length of time makes sacrifices and compromises. My suggestion, which btw, is one of many possible solutions to maintaining a music room as a music room, will only result in divorce or an unhappy marriage IF you spend all of your time their while the wife & kids do other things. Otherwise, it could very well result in a happier marriage. Remember, all things in moderation, including listening to music.

I'll try to elaborate on my suggestion this evening.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17334
Registered: May-04
.

I typically begin all my discussions of system building with a few basic questions.


First, do you listen to live music on a regular schedule? If so, what type and in what sort of situation? Amplified? Good sound or not?

Assuming you do listen to live music, what are your priorities for the system's reproduction? What says "live music" to you? Do you play an instrument? What are your overall goals and what are the primary values which you must perceive when listening to reproduced music? What values are you aware of that are not as important to you in the system's final sound?

How much flexibility do you have in setting up the system? Placement of speakers and components. What is negotiable and what is not with the SAF? Is this room to be mostly for music? Or dual purpose?

What do you envision happening with acoustic devices? What do you see going in the room? What will not be allowed in the room? Are more concealed devices negotiable? There are options to refrigerator door sized panels, are you more open to those? Keep in mind refrigerator doors are cheap to manufacture and therefore cheaper to purchase. How about what can go on that very low 8' ceiling? What's allowable?


You will need some traps and some absorption devices to get started. I would strongly suggest you head over to the ASC site and look at their products, their suggestions and their completed projects.

How much longer in this particular room? Do you have any idea what the next room will measure?



" Perhaps I can sketch out the room with furniture locations and all and post on here for a more detailed look at what I'm dealing with as done by others?"


At this point I wouldn't bother. Go to the ASC site and plug in a few values so get some suggestions for what needs to be done keeping in mind the extremely broad dispersion of the Gallos. I wouldn't think that your $10k budget is already consumed. If need be, pay for a room analysis to get a professional's layout of how to deal with your specific room's issues. You will be money ahead rather than relying on a few dozen comments from the peanut gallery.




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Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2835
Registered: Oct-07
A good example of an audio consulting site.

http://www.rivesaudio.com/
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 126
Registered: Apr-06
I typically begin all my discussions of system building with a few basic questions.


First, do you listen to live music on a regular schedule? If so, what type and in what sort of situation? Amplified? Good sound or not?


We have been to a few concerts, both large scale like U2 outdoor venues and large arenas and on a smaller scale such as small arenas and bars. I would not say a regular basis but most are amplified concerts. Musical tastes vary from rock to easy listening like Adele. Some have had very good sound...others, not so great.

Assuming you do listen to live music, what are your priorities for the system's reproduction? What says "live music" to you? Do you play an instrument? What are your overall goals and what are the primary values which you must perceive when listening to reproduced music? What values are you aware of that are not as important to you in the system's final sound?

I'll do my best here. Lifelike sound would be great, but perhaps unrealistic. Proper imaging and being able to easily place the musicians in the proper soundstage. Clarity and detail is also important to me. I mentioned earlier that bass is important, but good bass is more important than poor loose sounding bass.


How much flexibility do you have in setting up the system? Placement of speakers and components. What is negotiable and what is not with the SAF? Is this room to be mostly for music? Or dual purpose?

It is mostly "my" room so a fair bit of flexibility, but you know how that works. There will likely be some resistance depending on what I need to do. There is also a TV in the room but again, mostly for my purpose. This room is in the basement and my spouse rarely will come for any period of time.

What do you envision happening with acoustic devices? What do you see going in the room? What will not be allowed in the room? Are more concealed devices negotiable? There are options to refrigerator door sized panels, are you more open to those? Keep in mind refrigerator doors are cheap to manufacture and therefore cheaper to purchase. How about what can go on that very low 8' ceiling? What's allowable?

Currently, the room is more or less divided into two areas. Roughly half the room is where I have the stereo, two love seats, end tables and a 47" TV. There is built in shelving on one end of the room that currently is the music room. Looking at the far end of the room, the shelving on the left side is 2 ft wide. The right side has shelving 2.5 ft wide. The 6'-1 1/2" section of wall that separates these shelves is where I would like to place the components.

You will need some traps and some absorption devices to get started. I would strongly suggest you head over to the ASC site and look at their products, their suggestions and their completed projects.

ok

How much longer in this particular room? Do you have any idea what the next room will measure?

The house has been designed, but a relative blank area has been left in the basement for audio purposes.



" Perhaps I can sketch out the room with furniture locations and all and post on here for a more detailed look at what I'm dealing with as done by others?"


At this point I wouldn't bother. Go to the ASC site and plug in a few values so get some suggestions for what needs to be done keeping in mind the extremely broad dispersion of the Gallos. I wouldn't think that your $10k budget is already consumed. If need be, pay for a room analysis to get a professional's layout of how to deal with your specific room's issues. You will be money ahead rather than relying on a few dozen comments from the peanut gallery.

No pros in this area as mentioned earlier. I did look into equipment to perhaps doing it myself, but I'm not sure if I would be getting in over my head or not or if I'm even willing in attempting it.}
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 127
Registered: Apr-06
Go to the ASC site and plug in a few values

I can't seem to find where to input values}
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17336
Registered: May-04
.

"I can't seem to find where to input values"


OHWELLCRAP!!! OK, ASC has changed their site since I did that last thread. There were a few resources and some basic game plans laid out on their site awhile back but they've apparently been taken down. Use this site from leo's link to get a rough idea of what your room looks like to a speaker; http://www.hunecke.de/en/calculators/loudspeakers.html Rives also has a few other pages that would be interesting to you IMO. Their approach to solutions related to speaker/room integration will be quite unlike those of ASC. However both are equally valid as they are both addressing the issues from a highly refined scientific viewpoint of known values and not from the standpoint of just removing all the "extra sound" in the room. You would not go wrong addressing your desires with either company when it comes time to "design" a proper listening room in the new house. The time to do that is now, before other things become set in stone - quite literally - with the new house.



"Lifelike sound would be great, but perhaps unrealistic. Proper imaging and being able to easily place the musicians in the proper soundstage. Clarity and detail is also important to me. I mentioned earlier that bass is important, but good bass is more important than poor loose sounding bass."


Just as I thought! You want everything your present room doesn't want to give you. It would have been so much easier if you had said you just want to hear something - anything - that was no more than OK for now. Oh, well.


Clarity is no problem with the Gallos and detail is in abundance if you can extract it from your room without doing damage to the rest - or vice versa. "Clarity" and "detail" exist primarily in a frequency region which is highly sensitive to what is perceived at your ears after the room has had its way with the signal. Both are significantly obscured by time and phase issues along with the comb filtering effects of multiple arrival times of the combined direct and reflected signals at your listening position. This is where your room's dimensions are doing you in.

First, with the type of system Gallos has created there is an "ideal" distance from the speaker for your listening position, yet with your room's contribution of high level reflected signals that position might be - probably will be - overwhelmed by blurred imaging, poor to little soundstaging width and depth and a simple lack of clarity and articulation. The Gallos have tested down to about 20Hz flat in the bass extension department. Guess what? Your room as it stands won't allow that either. And bass extension with cleanliness is paramount IMO to creating a believable musical presentation when you're dealing with speakers such as the Gallos.





Where is the TV located in the room? Does the main sound system do double duty with the TV system? What are your loudspeaker cables? Nordost? And what is that small tube device I see in your op photo? You're still using the same rack system as in the photo?

"There is built in shelving on one end of the room that currently is the music room. Looking at the far end of the room, the shelving on the left side is 2 ft wide. The right side has shelving 2.5 ft wide. The 6'-1 1/2" section of wall that separates these shelves is where I would like to place the components."


Let me see if I have this right; the speakers (at least) are intended to sit in the end of the room which has the shortest wall dimension with shelving behind/to the side of the speakers. Am I correct, the shelving is split into two sections? One section 2" and the other 2.5' wide? Floor to ceiling shelving? Fixed shelving or movable? Or, am I seeing in your photo shelves which exist on each side wall but placed into the farthest end of the room? How "decorative" do these shelves need to remain? Are they available to be used in some way for room treatments?



" No pros in this area as mentioned earlier. I did look into equipment to perhaps doing it myself, but I'm not sure if I would be getting in over my head or not or if I'm even willing in attempting it"


I can't tell from what you've said just where you are at in "doing it yourself". I suspect you will only accomplish the bare minimum of success if you take the time to; first, educate yourself in the areas of speaker/rooom integration and, secondly, dedicate yourself to many hours of fine adjustments with off and on success. I have to admit to being somewhat frustrated when I assist someone in person and then, after I leave, they have at it themself. On more than one occasion I end up having to undo what they've changed and then try to get back to where I left the system. On the other hand, the thread I linked to seems to have had very good results with someone who was dedicated to getting to a certain point in sound quality. I don't know if that room turned out the way I would have done the job had I had the opportunity to actually hear the system as it went along but the user was happy with his work.

And that's a bit of it from my end, it's just much easier and faster when I have the ability to actually hear what a change has done. I can only make eduated guesses when I try to assist someone long distance over a forum with a definite time lag in getting information back and forth.

I really must still suggest, if you want the best sound from your new speakers in this specific room, that you contact a company such as ASC and get their professional input on how to set up the room. They have the expertise to do this long distance where I do not and they have the computer programs which will make for a success in a much shorter time span. Otherwise, about the best I can do for you is some rather broad suggestions that will only take you so far in achieving the very high end sound the Gallos can reproduce.


Before you do anything else I would strongly suggest you begin researching loudspeaker placement techniques. For most listeners the location of the low frequency driver within the enclosure of the room is the prime driver for how well your system sounds. That is most often the first step in speaker positioning and, if you ignore that step, then most others values fall by the wayside. My personal preference for loudspeaker set up procedures is the Wilson WASP set up; http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html It has a first focus which is meant to establish the balance between mids and lows which also seems to most often place the speakers in a more domestically friendly position. I will warn you proper speaker placement is not what I see in the op photo and the very extended Gallos will require a placement which is several more feet out into the room. I would though suggest you put "loudspeaker placement" into a search engine and do some reading about other methods (beyond the WASP set up) of achieving proper placement of the speakers in your room. When you are doing speaker set up it is always beneficial to know what is being accomplished when you make another adjustment. If you get to a point where one set up isn't quite right to your ears, knowing another set up which you can combine with your intial attempts can be the difference between decent sound and high quality sound. So start reading before your speakers arrive.


A few suggestions on how to begin with your Gallos would be to understand the difficulties of a speaker system with dual voice coil, side firing woofers combined with a (MTM D'Appolito) mid/tweeter/mid driver aligment using a tweeter with a true 180° dispersion pattern. Each of these individual design decisions in another speaker would represent a specific issue when it came time to do a proper speaker set up. Combined they make for a speaker which really needs careful attention to set up and a well designed listening space.

In your present room I would tend to, intially at least, favor a rather toed in set up which will aim the high frequency driver at a crossing position slightly in front of your ears. You will need at least a single long measuring tape and a laser pointer to do a good set up. Establish a listening position by placing your chair at slightly more than an equilateral triangle away from the speakers themself. This will put you in a near field listening position which, combined with the toe in of the speakers, will have more first and second reflections arriving behind your head where they will (hopefully) do less damage to the perceived sound quality. Experiment with the second woofer coil being driven - I didn't ask whether you purchased the Gallo sub amp - though my first inclination is to not drive both vc's in your present room.


You should be looking at some bass traps for the two front corners of the room - as large a diameter as you can fit - and they should extend from floor to ceiling in that location. Tri-corner intersections of walls to floor or ceiling create the strongest "bunching up" of low frequency signals and therefore require attention above all else.

You can deal with the first reflection issue either at the speaker or at the room surface. In truth, given the dispersion of the Gallos' tweeter, you are very likely to need to do some work in both locations. The ASC traps have a reflective side and a dead side. In my friend's system with the Gallos the trap sits just to the outside of each speaker and the trap is then rotated to align the desired amount of reflection. For the most part the traps beside the speakers provide very early dampening of the first reflection wave which will mean less signal arriving at the near wall surface.

With the extremely short dimension of the room and the very broad dispersion of the tweeter you are going to need some attentuation along the side walls in the area between you and the speakers. I would be making a few decisions about what panels would meet your SAF.



So: read about speaker set up programs and procedures.

Give the Rives and ASC sites another look for more information which would inform you as to placement options for treatments. RealTraps can be useful if their site hasn't changed, though I have not had as much confidence in the results and certainly not in the look of the RealTraps set ups. They do, however, have some information which can be useful to anyone intending to engage for the first time in a high quality system set up. Just be aware that RealTrap's goals might be the same as your own.

Ask whatever questions you have and I'll do my best to provide the best answer I can.

Consider calling both Rives and ASC for some proposals regarding their approach to good sound.




.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 2838
Registered: Oct-07
Rives, at least, has several levels of help available.
They can do anything from a 'simple' consultation all the way to design and execution of a dedicated space.
I have a Rives disc for setup which is calibrated to the Radio Shack analogue SPL meter. Saves some data manipulation....
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 128
Registered: Apr-06
I was preparing a sketch to go to some acoustical companies so I thought I might as well show it on here as well.

The sketch shows the portion of the downstairs where my stereo system is located. I have shown a couple of loveseats (rough guess at dimensions), sofa back table, end table and TV and console which currently reside in the room. The stereo component rack and speakers are at the far end of the room where the shelves are shown. The window that is shown in the room is near the ceiling and is only 13" high (from the ceiling level down). The ceilings are 8' with the exception where the two drop beams are shown. The ceilings are a textured plaster on drywall. The floors are carpet over concrete which will be changed to some form of floating floor. I will likely remove one of the sofas and replace it with a chair to make a bit more room. I want to keep any changes to within the lines marked by 1 and 2.

I do not use the stereo when listening to the TV.

The components you see in the pic are the same except the little headphone tube amp has been replace with a WooAudio WA6 headphone amp, but it sits in the same location. As you know, the speakers will be the AG as opposed to what is shown.

The shelving at the end of the room is floor to ceiling and consist of removable shelving. I haven't approached the topic with my better half, but I will go out on a limb and say they are free to be used in some way for acoustical treatment.

"interesting.......for some reason, nothing is happening when I try to upload the image"
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 129
Registered: Apr-06
Here we go....damn mac!

Upload
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17337
Registered: May-04
.

Ok, further suggestions would include removing the sofa on the left side of the room when you are facing the system end. Also, relocate the TV. You are very likely going to need the remaining sofa and tables pushed back further into the room. The door to the left of the centrally located sofa, where does it head? What's on the other side of the door and how is that wall constructed? 2"X4" and drywall? Or, something more substantial? I assume the other wall is similar construction, yes?


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Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 130
Registered: Apr-06
Ok, further suggestions would include removing the sofa on the left side of the room when you are facing the system end. Also, relocate the TV. You are very likely going to need the remaining sofa and tables pushed back further into the room. The door to the left of the centrally located sofa, where does it head? What's on the other side of the door and how is that wall constructed? 2"X4" and drywall? Or, something more substantial? I assume the other wall is similar construction, yes?

I am planning on removing the sofa along the wall. The door you mention is not used. It enters the same space as the door to the immediate right of the stairs. The wall is of 2x4 wood stud and drywall construction. The wall on the opposite side of the room is an exterior wall of drywall, 2 x 4, insulation, and concrete foundation.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 131
Registered: Apr-06
Jan:

I need some guidance in using the hunecke speaker placement program. The section after describing the living space has parameters labeled "vicoustic" and "fastaudio". Are these manufacturers of acoustic treatment products? Should I use anything here to start?

Following this section is the manufacturer and model of loudspeakers. The AG's are not in the list they provide. What should I use?
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 132
Registered: Apr-06
Jan:

You mention relocating the TV. What do you suggest? We want to leave it within the same space as the audio gear if at all possible. I initially wanted to divide the room in two by putting a wall where the first drop beam is (nearest the red line labelled "1"), but that is not happening. Rather, we are installing a new wall with french doors where shown at the foot of the stairs.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17341
Registered: May-04
.

The "hunecke speaker placement program" is a new one on me. Looking at the site I'm not certain there's much to be had for you using their calculators. I'm really only guessing since I've not downloaded the programs but they appear to be; first, an acoustics calculator based upon the "fastaudio" company's specific program and, second, a dedicated link to using the vicoustic company's products. While acoustics are relatively predictable in that the manner in which pressure waves react to an enclosure are determined by mathematical calculations, it is the person doing the calculations that matters. Therefore, most acoustics calculators will give more or less the same general guidelines for what can be predicted when any given enclosure is excited by "X" loudspeaker's output. I suspect if you find another calculator, the predicted results for your room would be very similar to what you'd arrive at with the hunecke program.

Taking just the bottom three octaves of reproduction into account, however, the problem I personally run into with calculators is rather simple. First, you must think of the woofer creating the low frequency output into the room as if it did not exist within any enclosure other than the room itself. OK, now that you've thought of the woofer in that manner, don't think of the woofer existing in the room but rather think of the woofer existing in another enclosure which is the speaker cabinet. Now combine the two. If you're left going, "How do I do that?", then you have my problem with room calculators. The speaker designer has selected a specific enclosure for their low frequency driver which will result in either a pre-determined system "Q" for a sealed enclosure or a pre-determined bass alignment if the enclosure is vented. The "Q" or bass alignment is a measure of not only frequency extension but more so of the perceptual values a listener might describe as "speed", "control" and "tightness" in the bass response. Ideally you purchased the speaker system based upon what you heard in those values. Now you are going to take that system "Q" and place it inside another enclosure which will further alter the system "Q" you perceive when you consider the loudspeaker as not much more than a low frequency driver in the large enclosure of the room. Which it is ... but it is also a driver which has been placed inside a shippable and sellable package (the speaker cabinet) to arrive at the designer's goals and the preceived quality of the user. Loudspeaker designers understand the placement of their drivers within the dimensions of the speaker enclosure will determine whether the enclosure plays up or neglects the pressure waves which determine the perceived "Q" of the system. Place the driver too close to the bottom, side or top of the enclosure and the response will be altered and possibly will become ragged and the preceived "Q" will change. The same rules apply to placing the driver within the room; if you place the driver too close to the room boundaries, the "Q" of the room/speaker system will change. In other words, you won't have the tight, controlled bass response you wanted from that speaker. So "correct" speaker position within a room is largely preceptual, what you want to hear. Perception is not so easily predicted by the hard and fast rules of mathematics. Just as two amplifiers with identical wattage output and THD specs will perceptually sound unlike each other, so too will two loudspeakers with identical low frequency cut offs but dissimilar system "Q" be perceived by each listener as more desirable or less desirable based upon their own priorities in reproduced music. Now add to this the simple fact a power amplifier with a higher output impedance, say, a transformer coupled tube amplifier vs a solid state direct coupled amplifier, will create an electrical circuit with the loudspeaker which further alters the preceived bass "tightness" (or even the frequency balance of the audio system) and you have one more variable which cannot be predicted by any simple "put the speaker here" program. Just to cloud the image a bit further; room calculators, even when fed the specific loudspeaker being used, tend to neglect what is termed the "in room power response" of the speaker system. Briefly, each unique driver used in each unique enclosure will have its own specific dispersion pattern which is not constant but rather shifts as the frequency output changes. Unless your perception of what is correct at 200 Hz just happens to coincide with what a calculator focussed on reverberation time of the room suggests at 30Hz, the position predicted by the calculator will not synch with your precpetion of what sounds best. You really need the input of human ears and brains to make those sort of decisions. I hope that concept makes sense to you.

Due to the very unusual combination of design choices made by Gallos I'm not at all certain any calculator can arrive at truly useable predictions. It would be convenient if you could simply plug in "Gallos 3.5" into a calculator and someone would have already done the work of tabulating the effects of a 180° horizontal dispersion tweeter with somewhat limited vertical dispersion but I don't know that you will find that on line. (That's a good portion of what you will pay a company to do when you submit a proposed room for professional analysis.) And, even should you find that program, you get into the opposing goals of having a speaker placement which primarily benefits the deepest bass octaves of the system's output vs a placement which will give you the cleanest and most satisfactory perception of the other eight octaves. I didn't run any of the programs in the calculators for my room (my diy speakers won't be in the program's database either) but I didn't see the variables of, say, my particular room which has a drop down soffit 24" deep existing between my speaker position and my listening position. Using the generalities of the site then, my take away would be to focus on the single sentence which suggests consumer loudspeakers tend to perform best - in the deepest octaves at least - "when they are positioned as solitarily as possible within the room." Most any consumer loudspeaker placement system would give you the same advice unless you were using one of the uncommon speaker systems meant for a specific placement against a wall or in a corner.

(I won't bore you with a long diatribe regarding sound quality vs speaker design but the entire process of getting good sound out of a consumer speaker system would be so much more simplified if only speaker designers realized - as a few have - that consumer speakers must exist within an enclosed room and those known enclosures of a domestic space provide useable constants which should be exploited in their products. Rather the bulk of the consumer speaker design effort seems to be directed at those buyers who happen to listen to their systems in the middle of a cow pasture while sitting in a chair 25' off the ground.)



Back to your room and your speakers; your problem, of course, is you have no location where the speakers can be positioned "solitarily". Not even close to.

Given the unique design of the Gallos I don't know that any on line calculator will be all that helpful. Additionally, the success of the calculator will be dependent upon the ingenuity of the user. If my friend with his Gallos had set about using the program, would he have had the foresight to move his speaker position from the long wall to the short wall? Probably not, because the long wall position allowed him to have one rack for both his audio and his video systems. If he hadn't made that one highly significant change, he would have never, IMO, found a successful location for his audio system's speakers in his particular room. Yet a quick listen to his system and I was convinced his first set up placed the speakers too close to the front wall and positioned his listening chair too close to the opposite wall for good sound quality. Without sufficient room to move either the speakers nor the chair to a more beneficial position, there was no doubt in my mind the speakers had to be switched to the short wall position. So while calculators are useful at times, a more hands on approach to making decisions is still the final arbitter of what will work in any particular room with any specific system.

As to the "vicoustic" portion of the page, I'd say they are merely another acoustic treatment hardware company not too dissimilar to ASC or RealTraps. What the tie in is to the vicoustic company's hardware and the calculator provider's software I can't say, though vicoustic's products seem to be along the same line of absorption devices as ASC and, therefore, if you used the calculator, you could mentally plug in just about any reputable acoustic suppplier's products.


I don't know how much use you'll find given your specific situation in the on line calculators from any company. You can predict certain outcomes for specific frequency bands using any of the calculators I've run across but, IMO, the hands on approach is still your best bet. The side firing woofers of the Gallos present difficulties in predicting more than generalities when you consider the very high "Q" of the bass system in the Gallos plus the variable of the second voice coil driven - or not - by the Gallos sub amp.


Rather than go for predictions which may have no bearing on the outcome of your final placement, I would suggest you'll do better to just read and get a few general principles of loudspeaker set up in your head. And while the tape measure and the laser pointer will become useful tools when you get around to performing the final set up, I'm not much for number specific placement programs. I find they are often telling me things I already know such as a loudspeaker will tend to perform best in most systems "when they are positioned as solitarily as possible within the room." And I understand that "solitarily" will normally begin somewhere between 20 and 40% of the distance into the room. Beyond that the calculator isn't going to be what I turn to for answers. I'll rely on my ears and my general knowledge of various placement systems in conjunction with the same group of reference recordings I'll listen to after every small change I make. Then I'll understand that what I've managed in the basic set up is only the first step in achieving good sound and that the very small and at times the negligible differences a 5° tilt to the cabinet, a 1/4" alteration in position/toe in or a movement in the listening position up or down or very slightly forward will be more critical to a highly refined sound that any calculator can predict.



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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17342
Registered: May-04
.

The TV's position needs to be as far away and as isolated from the audio system as possible. If it can't be isolated, then you'll need to cover the TV with a blanket when you use the audio system and, for balanced sound, you'll need to provide another absorptive surface on the opposite side of the room from the TV.


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Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 17343
Registered: May-04
.

I think what might be most helpful with one of the on line calculators, if you care to do the experiment, would be to just plug in your room's dimensions and any speaker you feel is close to the Gallos in frequency response. Get an idea of what your room is going to add and subtract just as a generic rule when you have a speaker with fairly broadband response exciting the space.



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Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 133
Registered: Apr-06
I think what might be most helpful with one of the on line calculators, if you care to do the experiment, would be to just plug in your room's dimensions and any speaker you feel is close to the Gallos in frequency response. Get an idea of what your room is going to add and subtract just as a generic rule when you have a speaker with fairly broadband response exciting the space.

Thanks Jan. I've already tried that with various speaker brands. I'm not really sure if it is doing much for me as your earlier post suggested. I think I'm going to wait until the Gallo's arrive before I really try to sort this stuff out. I have already removed one of the sofas from the area, so some of the known adjustments that can be done now, are underway.
 

Silver Member
Username: Bluemark81

NB Canada

Post Number: 134
Registered: Apr-06
Got the Gallo's today. Been listening to them all night. Out of the box and even though my room sucks, these things are fantastic! Better than I ever imagined. Hard to believe they will even improve further over the break in period and with some room improvements. Very happy with my decision to go with the Gallo's.
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