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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 19 Registered: May-10 | I'm looking to upgrade my R/C/L speakers. The one limitation I have is the center channel. I have a projector screen that drops down in front of a post. The center channel is speaker needs to be mounted vertically on the lower half of the post. I have about 18" H by 7" W to work with. I'm thinking of just getting a high quality bookshelf speaker and using 3 of them to make up my R/C/L channels. Do you have any recommendations? The right and left could be floor standers as long as they are not "huge." I'm thinking of getting 3 DefTech Gem XLs then at a later date upgrading the R and L to STS Supertowers. Would the Gem XLs be that much better then the ProMonitor1000's? There is about $120 price difference per speaker. The other option that would look good and be much cheaper, but I don't know how well it would sound is 3 Polk OWM 5 speakers. I like the sound of Audioengine speakers, but they only come as pairs, and I would need 3 of them. I also |
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Gold Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 1680 Registered: Oct-10 | Dan, as far as I know, there is no reason why a typical shelf speaker couldn't serve as a center speaker. Double check on this, but my understanding is that center channel speakers are given their shape as a matter of convenience for most HT applications. If you were using a TV as your viewing screen, I'd caution you to make sure the speaker is magnetically shielded before using it as a center speaker. With a projection screen, this won't be an issue. |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 21 Registered: May-10 | Also unfortunately the screen is not one of the fancy Acoustically Invisible projector screens. If that were the case I'd probably spring for some DefTech Mythos RCL speakers. That means I have to mount below the screen, hence the dimensions Provided. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16425 Registered: May-04 | . Most speaker manufacturers don't sell an odd single speaker but rather prefer to sell in pairs. A stacked pair of smaller, standmounted speakers would probably serve you better than a single speaker anyway. If you are looking at vertically mounting a conventional center channel speaker, check with the manufacturer before you make your decision. Depending on the crossover configuration there might be what is termed "lobing" built into a center channel and this would cause the combined dispersion of the drivers to only be accurate in a horizontal position or at a certain height. Using such a speaker in a vertical stance or mounting the speaker too low without some angling of the cabinet would cause problems with irregular frequency response and slightly noticeable dead spots in the listener's perception where the sound just wasn't as clear and crisp as the designers intended. The Def Tech Gem's are most typical of this sort of design. They are configured in what is called a "M-T-M" system (mid-tweeter-mid). A common crossover for this layout would be a "D'Apolotio" style crossover (or Linkwitz/Reilly as designated in the Def Tech literature) which combines the three drivers' output only on a specific listening axis. Place the speaker too high or too low - or mount the speakers in an unexpected manner - and you'll loose much of the clarity of the system. http://search.yahoo.com/search?ei=utf-8&fr=slv8-hptb5&p=d%27appolito%20theory&ty pe= When using fairly small enclosures - which then dictate smaller diameter drivers, keep in mind there will be several trade offs for cabinet size/volume. Smaller drivers often have shorter voice coils - the "motor" of the driver - which will reduce the dynamic range capacity of the system. Such drivers can easily be overdriven if your tastes in source material tends toward the big, blow'em up blockbuster style of films. In other words, it's relatively easy to damage these systems if you're not jucidicious with the volume control. Smaller enclosures also tend toward a trade off of lower electrical sensitivity of the system - it won't play as loud with the same wattage input as a larger enclosure - and this makes the listener push the system upwards in volume where it is far too easy to then hit that big bump that takes out a driver. An audition with fairly dynamic material would be suggested before you make a decision on any small speaker set. Additionally, smaller speakers often trade volume potential for bass extension. If a speaker cannot reproduce deep bass, the trade you'll accept is to run the crossover frequency on the subwoofer higher. This can become an unacceptable trade as you begin to notice the location of the subwoofer which is reproducing higher than desired midrange frequencies including midrange voices which will not be stabilized on the video screen. Additionally, if you're considering the audioEngines, many - if not all - of their speakers use a "waveguide" on the high frequency driver. This is yet another way to control the dispersion of the driver and essentially "aim" the driver at a specific listening position. Using a speaker with a waveguide in an unintended position - horizontal vs vertical - will also tend towards minimizing the broadest listening field for that speaker. Center channel speakers were introduced when the change from Dolby Surround went to Dolby Pro Logic Surround. The intention of the center channel was to lock in voices and anything related to on screen activity to the location of the video image. In other words, voices which had an actor speaking on the left side of the screen needed to sound as though the voice was originating on the left side of the screen. Sounds which panned across the screen needed to have a smooth, consistent movement and not a jump from one side of the soundstage to the other. Listeners seated off to one side often heard a voice that was disconnected to the visual image or a panned sound which had no center fill before the center channel and speaker came into vogue. If you use a seaker in a position which goes against its technical design intentions, you're likely to find the same results for any listener seated off axis from the center of the screen. Are you able to audition any of these speakers before you make a purchase? . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 22 Registered: May-10 | The DefTech's are carried at my local Best Buy so I could probably audition those. The Gem XL is meant to be mounted vertically, but I would be a little worried about the bass response as you mentioned. The ProMonitor 100 has a little bit better bass response. I'm not too worried about volume at this point, I'm more concerned with clarity and sound. I have 3 young kids in the house. With my current cheap HTiB speakers I find myself playing it louder then I feel like I should have to to be able to hear the soundtrack, everything just kind of sounds muddy. Ultimatly the room is pretty small 12'x12' view area. The only reason we have a projector is why want it to be able to be put away. I have a pair of the A2 Audioengines which I love, but they are more of a musical speaker and I wonder how well the P4s would handle movies with a lot of impact. What about something like 3X Polk TSI 200s. Those would fit in the footprint I'm looking at, anyone have any input on those? |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 23 Registered: May-10 | As far as stacked speakers are you referring to something like the Orb Mod 2s? Or could you give me an example? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16426 Registered: May-04 | . "Stacked speakers" are just that, one speaker enclosure sitting atop the other. Whether it is best to situate the two speakers vertically or horizontally depends upon the speakers you select. Then you would decide whether it was best to have the tweeters facing each other - or mounted facing the same side of the screen or have the tweeters opposing each other on each end of the array. There are no set rules since there are so many speakers and ways to design speakers available. One note of caution, combining two speakers onto one channel's output of the your amplifier needs to be wired properly. Simply hooking both sets of speaker cables to one center channel output will decrease the impedance load on the amplifier by approximately half. If the speakers you select are rated at 8 Ohms, the average load on the amplifier will then be cut to 4 Ohms. Many HT receivers will not be happy at a 4 Ohm load. You would either have to select more carefully or wire the two speakers in a "series" configuration which would then double the average impedance. Raising the load impedane is typically not a problem for most HT receivers though they will produce slightly less total wattage into the higher impedance load but will be more stable in the long run. You can easily find instructions on how to connect speakers in series by using a search engine. Nothing to it! . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 24 Registered: May-10 | I always thought it was a "BAD" idea to run multiple tweeters on the same channel. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16427 Registered: May-04 | . A "BAD" idea? There are plenty of "BAD" ideas in audio and most often a reasonable way to work around the problems. Read the edit I made to the above post. As I see it, you want to use a speaker in a manner for which it not was not intended. That means you will need to understand just what do's and do not's should apply to the particular speaker you are using in a specific installation. Dropping the load impedance on the amplifier below about 6 Ohms is generally a "BAD" idea for HT receivers. Making a series connection to raise the impedance is an acceptable work around when connecting two speakers to one channel's output. Using speakers with waveguides in an incorrect position would be a generally "BAD" idea. Using two such speakers in a stacked array where the waveguide still functioned as intended would be perfectly acceptable. (In that installation, you would want to begin with the tweeters in the center of the stacked system with the woofers on top and bottom forming a semi-MTM array.) Look at the shape of the tweeter's waveguide on the AudioEngine speakers. It is shaped to provide wider dispersion in the horizontal plane than in the vertical plane. Mounting these speakers on their side would reverse the dispersion pattern of the system and reduce the acceptable side to side listening areas while bouncing too much sound off the floor and ceiling. This would result in delayed reflections arriving out of synch at the listener's ears and bringing down basic audibiity of voices and effects. Mounting these speakers too high or too low would also go against the basic design of the system and reduce audibility - the last thing you want in a video system. I wouldn't trust most audio salespeople in the big box stores like Best Buy to have a clue about any of this. You should contact the manufacturer in such cases before making a decision. They know their product and they can provide the best advice on how to mount their speakers in any individual install. For example, Def Tech claims their speakers work well either on a shelf, on a stand or against the wall. That's rather unbelievable unless you really, really are generous with your definition of "work well". If a speaker is designed to work at its optimum on a stand out away from sheves and walls, then it cannot by way of physics operate with equal accuracy in the other two locations. Best to contact the manufacturers for the most thorough advice. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16428 Registered: May-04 | . Of course, you can ignore all of this techincal stuff if you prefer and buy the speakers that look the best with your TV screen. That is, unfortunatelty, how most people do it. . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 25 Registered: May-10 | Thanks for the info. I'm not concerned about the impedance issues of wiring in series vs. parallel. I understand that well. What I was more concerned about is introducing comb filtering. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16429 Registered: May-04 | . Comb filtering is easy to introduce. Place a speaker in use in anything other than an anechoic chamber. And that's the basic problem we all face. Rooms have hard surfaces and they cause reflections which introduce comb filtering. The most common way to deal with these reflections is to begin adding absorptive materials to the room to minimze reflections. This results in yet another trade off of relying on broad band absorbers which do not discriminate between the original signal coming from the drivers and the reflected signal bounced off the walls, the floor, the walls, the ceiling, the walls, your dog, etc. If you want to knock down a reflection at 1kHz, you'll also have to accept the fact that the same absorber will take down the information at 5kHz that you wanted to retain. If I give you "this", I will also take away "that". That's pretty much how audio works. I would tell you on a very broadly conceptual basis, since we have yet to arrive at any particular speakers mounted in any specific manner in something other than an unknown room, that simply understanding how the speakers work - waveguides, MTM arrays, etc. - will get you one step ahead of the game when dealing with comb filtering. Calling the manufacturer should - hopefully - get you more precise information regarding how to set up a designer's product. Keep in mind many mass market manufacturers really don't give a rip about how their products are implemented, they just want the product to move out of their warehouse. That would suggest to me it is best to avoid most mass market manufacturers - but then I already do that. Then, once you have their suggestion for placement, recognize the fact that comb filtering will occur unless you do something about that room and its hard, reflective surfaces. There are set up procedures for loudspeakers. Have you loked at or used any of these techniques in the past? . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 26 Registered: May-10 | I sent an email to DefTech, I'll see how they respond. I've been really impressed with the smaller guys in the past (like Adioengine). What are some of your other favorite manufacturers? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16430 Registered: May-04 | . The ones I own. I don't have favorites otherwise. I used to sell high end audio but since I retired I haven't kept up with gear. More to the point my tastes have almost always been outside of the mainstream of audio and I go more for the low production numbers independent builders with names unfamiliar to most listeners or I diy my speakers. Also I seldom make any sort of product recommendation on the forums since there are simply too many variables to do what I consider an adequate job of suggesting a component someone might enjoy. Read the archives of this forum and you'll find numerous suggestions by members more familiar with current equipment than I am. I've never heard the AudioEngine speakers in a music set up so I can only go from what I read. From everything I have read, they are the best of what you've mentioned so far. My basic opinion of Polk and Def Tech are they build speakers designed by commitees who often place sound quality beneath many other objectives. They then sell their speakers in stores where knowledgeable salespeople are difficult, if not impossible, to find. That's not what I consider to be the highest recommendation anyone can give. https://www.ecoustics.com/electronics/forum/home-audio/606926.html . |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1397 Registered: Jul-07 | Would single driver speakers work well as HT systems ? I was thinking of a set of Tektons Dan. Unfortunately though, it looks like Eric has dropped his less expensive line of speakers. Cheapest speaker now looks like $475.....still very good for what you get. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16431 Registered: May-04 | . Single driver speakers can work well in HT systems. When I auditioned the Allegria Lings I commented on their ability to provide excellent center fill and a wide soundstage for video applications with only a stereo pair in use. The only issue with single drivers is their natural tendency towards beaming of the high frequenices. They require careful set up to accommodate video applications where you desire a wide sweet spot and might not be the best choice if the seating arrangements tend toward listeners being well off center axis. . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 27 Registered: May-10 | Jan, thanks for your opinion. I had a similar feeling about Polks but had always thought of Definitive Technology as a notch above. They are sold a Best Buy so they are clearly mass produced. As far as AudioEngine is concerned, my understanding is they are spin off from a company that specialized in high end near field monitors for studios and such. They make great powered (computer) speakers (A2, A5). They are fairly new to passive speaker market. I've been looking around and I'm thinking I might like to try out one of these as the center. It looks like if a I adjust the screen a little bit they will fit nicely. http://www.axiomaudio.com/m22-onwall-speakers.html And two of these as the R/L channels. http://www.axiomaudio.com/m22.html As far as how far off the center axis viewers could be, the worst case is about 35 degrees. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 16434 Registered: May-04 | . Def Tech was started by one of the three original founding partners of Polk. IMO, both companies turn out OK product but seldom have the ability to really break new ground or even solidify the ground others have stirred. Design by committee is a b*tch! "As far as how far off the center axis viewers could be, the worst case is about 35 degrees." Then you should be fine with any of the speakers you've mentioned. The only thing - at this point - to be aware of would be the MTM arrays which might not perform well when they are positioned in anything other than their "designed for" stance. The Axiom's are decent speakers and provide a good amount of performance for the dollar. I know a few forum members have used Axiom's. Whether they will respond to this thread, I don't know. . |
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Bronze Member Username: KlepsydraPost Number: 28 Registered: May-10 | I did get a response from DefinitiveTech, they recommended using the ProCenter 2000, and said that it would work fine in a vertical configuration. It is essentially an MTM design so I don't know how much faith to put into their response. I really like the STS SuperTower, but as I think about it more I could get the m22 from Axiom and two matching Axiom subwoofers for the same price. |