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Dvd Audio or Sacd?

 

New member
Username: Savagebleu

Post Number: 1
Registered: Jul-04
Which one will die...or will dual disc kill them both?
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 760
Registered: Dec-03
that is a good question and many on this board have
debated that a lot.

me personally i bought the denon 2200 universal player.

so i'm pretty much ready for either.
and at the moment still don't have a preference.
how about you?
 

New member
Username: Bleu_star

Post Number: 1
Registered: Jul-04
First I thought SACD, then DVD Audio, then SACD and now there is DualDisc. I think I'll wait another year and see how the dust has settled. I do think that some format will emerge.
 

New member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 3
Registered: Jul-04
As a music, not electronics, person, I've tried to follow the serpentine course of DVD-A and SACD. Failed, so far. But a recording engineer-friend of mine in LA opines that both will be dead within a decade - and replaced by "blu-ray" technology now just rearing its purple/blue head in Japan - to hit the US shores by 2006. It's for storage, mainly - but my friend says it will soon eclipse "regular" DVDs - and probably do away with the DVD-A discs. Hmmm. . . not me saying that, just listening to an industry insider who may (or may not!) be getting the right messages.
I DO know that the blu-ray technology is vastly superior in terms of storage quantity - one company's toying with liddle 3cm discs that hold 1 GB of info - like, all Beethoven's symphonies? Well, we'll see... Meanwhile, Sony is doing dark-room testing of flip discs, and urging on all the European CD producers to go the SACD route. Sigh. How confusing is all this???
IF my friend is correct, then SACD will die. Because the blu-ray is backward compatible with red-laser DVDs, and not SACDs. I've googled the blu-ray about as far as I can (being NOT an engineer!) but I stand unconvinced that it will simply REPLACE either DVD-A or SACD - as most of the emphasis is currently being put on blu-ray as a storage medium - as "in your computer?"
And oh, yes - there are two separate formats of blu-ray, also! One by Sony, et al, the other by Toshiba, et al. I "think" the Toshiba is winning? Not sure - yet.
All of you who have now - or will soon have - the so-called "universal" players are playing it safe - and quite correctly so. Getting stuck (as I once did) with Beta, then having to eat crow and go across-technology to VHS - - well, I don't want to do THAT again!
 

New member
Username: Bleustar

Pensacola, Florida

Post Number: 2
Registered: Jul-04
Thanks for the insight Larry. I also think that any new format that emerges will need to be compatable in some way with the players installed in vehicles. For me personally, I need to be able to have the flexablility to play things at home, on the road, or on portable equipment.
 

New member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 5
Registered: Jul-04
Ah, yes - might note that several car companies - I think Lexus and one other - have started putting DVD-A players in their hi-end models - extra cost, I'm sure! Not sure if this means anything, or is a portent of anything to come, but it is of interest, in line with what you say, Bleustar. And I'm not sure if my comments ought to be taken as "insight" or not - probably just the ramblings of a man who has been many places for many years and has absorbed many things! GRIN
thanks to all of you for making my life a lot better, info-wise!
 

Gold Member
Username: John_a

Post Number: 1747
Registered: Dec-03
Blu-ray is just a narrower laser beam reading smaller dots on the disc, so you can get more information on the same size disc, or the same information on a smaller disc. I do not see what it has to do with encoding audio data in DSD (SACD) vs. in LPCM and/or MLP (DVD-A).

"Sony is ... urging ... all the European CD producers to go the SACD route". Of course it is; it owns the format. It makes the discs and the players on which to play them; or else it requires third party manufacturers to pay it licence fees.
 

New member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 7
Registered: Jul-04
John A. - it has nothing to do with SACD, and everything to do with DVD and DVD-A. IF the blu-ray technology is finally accepted by the DVD folk, then it will gradually replace all the current red-laser DVDs - although, and I stress "although" - the technology will be backwards-compatible - meaning that "old" DVDs will be playable on the blu-ray players. My comments did not mean to imply that blu-ray would eclipse SACD - I just don't know what the companies involved have in mind (obviously).
Sony has a vested interest, as you so wisely comment, in keeping alive the SACD format. Heck, I'll bet that they're chomping at the bit right now, trying to figure out how much of an impact the blu-ray will have. This is a MAJOR development, and one that bodes well/not-well for both the DVD-A and SACD formats.
IF the Toshiba technology is adopted universally, then there will be either multi-recorded 12cm discs or single-recorded 3cm discs on the market - ESPECIALLY for the "on-the-go" gang whose players either hang from their necks or are installed in their automobiles. In the end, I fear, the "lo-fi" folk will prevail, as we have learned, to our sorrow, in all of the pull-down technology that allows most folk to download their "tunes" from the Internet, etc.
All I'm saying here, John, is that the blu-ray technology is something to watch. Will it be the death knell of SACD? I can't imagine it will. Will it be the death knell of your beloved DVD-A audio discs - welllllll - it might be. Stay tuned. And thanks for listening/reading my comments. Your skepticism is warranted, BTW.
 

New member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 8
Registered: Jul-04
Sigh. I need to add a couple of comments, John A. Sony is justifiably upset (stronger words censored) about the Toshiba-accepted protocol for blu-ray technology - and will thus probably put up a good fight. Blu-ray - or the Toshiba name for it (which I can't remember) will REPLACE the DVD technology we now know. And with that will surely go the DVD-A that we know in its red-laser form. Will we then get an even better DVD-A result? Welllll - maybe we will - and maybe your backing of this format will prove to be the Winner in a contest that's getting too gnarly to even consider. In the end, my friend, I hope that you are right - for the Toshiba's backwards-compatible formulation might, indeed, light a fire under the whole recording industry. IF there is enough interest on the part of "the great unwashed" to make it viable. How many people do you know who value your standards for music reproduction? If you have many such - God bless you! I, personally, find that there are the great majority of folk who listen, but without sensitivity. Sigh. Sorry - I rant - I rave - against the waves. . . .
 

Silver Member
Username: John_s

Columbus, Ohio US

Post Number: 170
Registered: Feb-04
It is my understanding that the Sony/Philips/Panasonic Blu-ray disc system is intended primarily for the purpose of a High Definition video delivery system for movies and TV shows produced in the HD format. On the flip side is the competing NEC/Toshiba HD DVD (also blue laser) format, now endorsed by the DVD Forum. This endorsement doesn't settle the matter however, and there seems to be yet another two format war looming.

From David Ranada's Tech Talk column (Sound & Vision, April 2004): "The Blu-ray's one-layer construction is a throwback to the CD and has many things in common with the Super Audio CD (SACD), both developed by Sony and Philips, as well as to the now forgotten Sony/Philips proposal for their version of the original DVD, which lost out in the DVD Forum to the Toshiba/Warner system we use today. (Forgotten, that is, except by Sony and Philips).....The HD DVD is itself a throwback to the sandwich construction of laserdiscs. The equations that govern the optical scanning on a laserdisc and all its derivitives (CD, DVD, SACD, Blu-ray Disc [BD]) lock certain perameters of the laser, the lens system, and the disc construction into a mathematical relationship so intemate that altering even one parameter would require changing all the others. That's precisely the situation here. While the data carried on a BD and an HD DVD could in theory be made identical, the differences in the discs' construction and optical properties create irreconcilable differences. There can be no compromise."

We've seen these format wars before, and the public is always the loser. When is the FCC going to run out of patience with all the foot-dragging and bickering regarding the complete implementation of HDTV?

That said, the "winner" of this hi-rez video war would probably win the hi-rez audio war as well.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 263
Registered: Feb-04
A blu-ray player is supposed to be available commercially this year. The launch of hd-dvd players is dragging behind. Both formats won't be affordable for most folks for a few years and the catalog will take a longer time to ramp up.

Until then, the format war between SACD and DVD-A is rendered moot by universal players. My preference has been for hybrid SACDs because of convenience (i.e., being able to play it in the car or walkman). The difference in sound quality between SACD and DVD-A is not discernable. The source material and mix are more important factors in how the disc sounds. Also, the SACD catalog is larger than for DVD-A at the moment.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 11
Registered: Jul-04
My take on it exactly, Two Cents - and from what I read, blu-ray in whatever form is aimed more at HD movies and disc storage than at the hi-res audio market. Of course, it will most likely "slop over" into that eventually. As a lover of opera and classical music, I, too, gravitate to the SACDs - mainly because there are more of them in my chosen genre. Again (grin) a bit moot for me at the moment, because I have to drive six miles to a friend's summer-vacant house to play my SACDs! Hmmm. . . coming this fall, to a spot in my cabinet - but WHICH player? I'll have to wait until the Fall models come out, then start cranking through all the reviews, etc. Hope you can add more to this, Two Cents!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 12
Registered: Jul-04
I think that I overlook a key element in the proliferation of SACDs or DVD-As - the "mass audience." Have you been in a record (yes, I still call them that) store recently - and politely asked: "where are the SACDs?" HUH? is the usual reply. Then comes: "oh, yes, uh, I think they're filed under the composer's name." Last time I was in our quite good Border's store here in Naples I was able to track down three SACDs and four DVD-As - but only by the tried and true flip-flip-flip search method of all the racks. Sigh. Although I do not listen to Rock, perhaps it will take LOTS of discs containing that form of music for the hi-res discs to really catch fire?
I know - that doesn't settle "the war of the formats," but I had that thought to add.
 

J. Vigne
Unregistered guest
Well the curmudgeon of curmudgeons on this topic has little to add other than I have the after taste of little aluminum discs as I read the "future" plans for the music industry. I am firmly with those who feel the entire efforts of the industry is directed toward dumbing down music storage with vaguely a nod toward preserving the classic performances from the past. The audiophile community has been such a small portion of the music buying populace for decades that there is little need to even pretend we exist. I'm not sure where the pressure came from to get universal players on the market but I suspect it was more an effort of C.Y.A. on the part of the music industry to encourage sales of two formats that may not exist in ten years.
 

Silver Member
Username: Two_cents

Post Number: 267
Registered: Feb-04
Mr. Wryter,

There should be a good selection of universal players at reasonable prices this fall. I'd be glad to provide my $0.02 when you're ready to pull the trigger.

I've experienced the same thing looking for SACDs and DVD-As. If you look hard enough, you can find what you want. Tower Records has a good selection of classical titles and a separate hi-res discs for redbook CDs. The prices are better on the Tower website than at the bricks-and-mortar stores.
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 15
Registered: Jul-04
Thanks, Two Cents - I'll be sure to ask your opines when the time is near to spend even more of my hardly-earned money. Sigh. Fortunately, my long-suffering wife is in agreement with me on music, and its reproduction at home. We don't have a "great" system, but it appears to do a fair job - with the exception of the liddle JVC XV-N55SL, which provides stunning pictures, yet harsh and tinny CD sound. That WILL go!
Aside to J Vigne - yep - those liddle discs tast terrible! But make very good Frisbees. . .
 

Silver Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 853
Registered: Dec-03
larry i have heard quite a few people state that
where they are the selection of dvd-a and sacd is
sparce at best.

i must be one of the lucky ones, living in michigan
near detroit. because their are stores all around
me that carry a lot of titles.

i could definatly see where you might be hesitent
to except these formats as i would have never got
into them if i didn't find a descent selection of
media locally.

i'm pretty impatiant when i want something and have
a hard time ordering things then have to wait for
it. i do it but sometimes the waiting is almost
unbareable for me.

that is unfortinate for you because most of the
disks are a night and day difference over cd's.

good luck my friend.

if by chance you are looking at players i give 2
thumbs up to the recently discontinued pioneer
563a model.

you can still get them without to much problem
for awhile and at $100 they are very nice universal
players. i use one and they work very nice for all
4 formats. sacd/dvd-audio/cd's/and dvd's. for the
price, in my oppinion you just can't beat it.

chears!
 

Bronze Member
Username: Wryter

Naples, FL US

Post Number: 26
Registered: Jul-04
Kegger:
Thanx for the posting - UR fortunate in your location. Here in SW Florrid-Ugh! the stores cater to the CD crowd - but have not yet "disc"-overed the new formats.
I buy nearly all of my CDs, etc., through either Amazon or ArkivMusic Online - some at Tower Records, though I really dislike their web site and browsing Online setup. Sigh.
Thanks for the player suggestion - you are not the first to praise it, sir. But I'm waiting to see what comes out in a couple of months. If the HiFi market is anything like computers, well, there's a new model every week! G R I N
I've got a backlogged "wish list" on Amazon, and have bookmarked several discs on ArkivMusic, for when I get my "dental abuse" finished - three crowns and a root canal. How do you spell "FUN?"
Oh, yes - also have to wait until we return from our annual "adventure." This year it's out to Santa Fe for three operas, tons of chile peppers and some art-browsing for my wife. We moved to Naples from Sedona, AZ, and still miss the West. BTW - I grew up in Battle Creek!! LR
 

Bronze Member
Username: Culp4684

Post Number: 24
Registered: Aug-04
In short:

When it comes to electronics, you can always ask, "Should I buy now or wait until...?"

There's always going to be something better down the road!
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 591
Registered: Aug-04
You are right, technology will never stop advancing.

But with your comment being the case one would never progress because the road is endless. Sometimes, one just has to bite the bullet and say," Today is the day!"
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1360
Registered: Dec-03
hey rantz in a way that's how i took Robert Culp's post.
 

Silver Member
Username: Myrantz

Post Number: 596
Registered: Aug-04
Kegger you're right - apologies Robert, having a bad brain day!
 

Gold Member
Username: Kegger

MICHIGAN

Post Number: 1374
Registered: Dec-03
it's all good man!
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