Tannoy Revolution DC6/Castle Avon

 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 866
Registered: Dec-06
I'll be comparing a couple of speakers to my current Quad 12L2. I traded in for a pair of DC6 from Tannoy a few months ago when I had some components to get rid of, and shortly after that bought a pair of new old stock Castle Avon floorstanders. This is the pre-IAG Castle. These speakers are probably somewhere between 10-13 years old and have been sitting in the distributor's warehouse for almost their entire existance. I'll see how each speaker sounds in my system and the winner will stick around, while I will likely sell the other two. Maybe I'll sell only one of them, I'm not sure yet. I guess it'll depend how much I like each one. I've always liked Tannoy and wanted to try for myself a pair of dual concentrics. And I've always been interested in Castle, and can't shake the itch to try out another floorstander. So when the Avons came up (brand new to boot and of course nicely discounted) I jumped at them.

First things first though - speaker stands. I've now got a pair of Kudos S50 stands under my Quads. The dealer here fills them with sand until they almost stop ringing. I must say again how silly I feel for doubting some of you guys here. These stands have totally transformed my Quads, even over my old Reference 3A stands. The puny Quads sound like a floorstander now. The deepest and most powerful bass notes can actually shake the room - the Quads never did that before! And it's amazing how the mids and highs have improved too. It feels like the stand is channeling the bass away from the speaker, helping it to excel at mids and highs. They are clearer now, and the various instruments feel much more grounded within the image that the speakers are casting. Hearing is believing! It's not all peaches and cream though. The bass can be a bit too much sometimes. It's probably the room. Need some bass treatments. But I'd say 95% of the time this isn't an issue and the bass sounds great. So perhaps it's a node at a particular frequency. Or could it simply be boomy bass on certain recordings? Whatever it is, I can live with it for now.

I've also got my amp and source on a new Target stand. So set up I think is finally done. There are always improvements to be made, of course, but I've come a long way.

Listening to the Quads it's clear they are good at lots of things. Imaging, detail, transparency, clarity and focus, attack and decay, dynamics...they seem to tick off most of the audiophile boxes. The overall presentation with my Rega source and Exposure amp is warm and smooth. There are three or four things I suspect I'm not quite digging right now, which might make all the difference, but I will confirm that once I hear the other two speakers. Suffice to say that despite the impressive sound, something just doesn't seem right. I'm not as immersed in the music as I should be. Some music probably more so than others. Again, we'll see how the other two do on this front. I want to start paying more attention to the whole of the music rather than focus on audiophile ideals. Most speakers from companies such as Quad and Tannoy should be able to do a lot of the audiophile stuff, but the joy in listening to a system is hearing the music itself not in bits but as a whole, and connecting with it. That's when you want to keep listening, rather than try to figure out what's not working.

So now, onto the Tannoys. These are gorgous speakers. They've got one of the nicest wood finishes I've seen on a speaker at this price. I'll mention the Castles here too - Castle was known for build quality above all else, and it shows here. Thicker than usual real wood was used, and apparently there is a sloping partition near the bottom of the speaker, which reduces overall internal volume, but the crossover is sealed underneath it to isolate it from the drivers above. Rap the speaker with your knuckles and you get a totally dead sound. There is a port on the bottom, and the Avons use what was then a newly developed by Castle carbon fibre woofer. Thanks to the review at gramophone.net for some of these details. Suffice to say the build quality definitely shows where Castle invested a lot of the money.

I'll have the Tannoys on the stands tonight and I'm going to start listening. I'll take this nice and slow over the winter. I want to give the Tannoys some time to break in and for me to get used to their sound before I swap in the Castles. So far I have put about 8 hours of non-critical, low-volume listening on the Tannoys just to help ease them in. I'll post impressions as I go along. Those 8 hours have me very encouraged, as I believe I'm hearing more magic than with the Quads. I've got about 8 hours on the Castles too, and I'm looking forward to them even more based on what I've heard so far. One step at a time though...

I think Dak's thread about his Salk speakers has inspired me to listen to DSOTM and The Final Cut, along with a few other tracks I'm more familiar with, using both speakers. I recently received Jan's Emma disc, which I've listened to once and really enjoyed. This might be too much material, but I'll look at the two Floyd albums not as individual songs, but how I connected to them overall while they were playing.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 879
Registered: Dec-06
Couple of longish posts ahead...I've been doing some listening, and jotting down of notes. Impressions over the past week follow...

First impression:

First impressions of the DC6 were three-fold. The speakers employ a metal tweeter, and it sounds like one. Highs on the Quads are smoother and easier on the ears, while on the DC6 they can sound a little messy at times. But this seeming downside with the DC6 doesn't present itself all the time. On recordings that aren't that bright to begin with, the Tannoy's highs sound great. In fact, they sound more open and effortless than does the Quad. Piano on the Quads I believe sounds too smooth, while on the Tannoy there is more of a shimmering quality to it, and the percussive aspect of the instrument comes through nicely. The 12L2 seems to mute this to some degree. When it comes to the quality of the highs, for now I am on the fence. I like some aspects of each speaker's presentation.

Second, imaging. The DC6 are imaging champs! All I can say is wow!! I thought I heard great imaging before, but it was nothing like this. I know a lot of flat-earthers say that imaging isn't a major consideration, and is almost a trick. I don't know that I'd agree. First, I'm not sure how it can be a trick - it's not like a speaker decides it's going to do some funky things with the signal. The imaging is on the disc. I'd think some speakers just reveal it more than others do.

As to how it affects my listening, when you hear different sounds coming from different places, the music seems more alive and I am more immersed in it. With the DC6, imaging really is, to use an overused term, pinpoint. I can easily say where a sound is coming from. Even when the same sound is coming through both speakers, I can hear each separate part clearly, both the left and right. It's almost spooky! In comparison, the 12L2 does imaging but most of the time the music all seems like it's coming from in between the speakers, at about the same depth of the speakers. Because all sounds are coming from one location, you don't get the separation that you do with the DC6. When the sounds are coming from different locations it's much easier to notice them. Strangely enough, I think the Quads are the more detailed speaker, but I'm hearing things that I didn't before due to the way the Tannoys image and call attention to various sounds. One example, in Faster Pussycat's House of Pain (good ol' 80s hair metal ) during the chorus you get the big drum and guitar crashing in the background. I had always heard this, but never knew it actually moved from side to side. In addition, the DC6 seems to bring the soundstage a bit more forward than do the Quads, also a welcome change.

Lastly, the overall sound is quite a bit leaner and drier than the Quads. The DC6 could benefit from the use of a sub, whereas it simply isn't required with the 12L2. Or, perhaps Tannoy could have used a slightly larger driver and cabinet. 6" is on the small side for the large model bookshelf in the Revolution line. 6.5" or 7" might have been preferable.

I think most important is that music is more exciting and engaging than it is with the 12L2, which is perhaps a little too smooth and laid back. This is probably what I wanted most, but I'm still unsure about the highs and lack of bottom end weight.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 880
Registered: Dec-06
Second impression:

I decided to read the manual, and Tannoy suggests plugging speaker cables into the HF terminals. I had plugged them into the LF terminals and was listening to them that way. So I moved them to the HF terminals. Now the highs sound cleaner, and there also seems to be more low end weight. Is it all in my head? I'm not sure why I'd hear that much improvement, but Tannoy was pretty clear in the manual that the connection should be made to the HF terminals.

Third impression:

Uh oh! Imaging problem. It seems there is a downside to crazy pinpoint imaging. On Wild Horses (from the album "Stripped") you hear Mick in the middle and Keith's guitar off to the right. There's another guitar to the left, but it doesn't play much. This is very distracting. Sound is coming from the middle and the right, but not much from the left. This makes it feel like my left ear isn't hearing properly. This seems to happen with only a few songs I've listened to so far. A local dealer indicated if I toe my speakers in more it will help with this. I doubt I'd want to get up and adjust toe in based on the song. Most songs don't suffer as much as Wild Horses does. Maybe I can live with it.

Fourth impression:

The new stands have arrived, and so too the LFD cable. As with my Quads, the LFD really helps the Tannoy remove whatever glare was there in the highs. It seems there is some added heft in the bass as well (a bit cleaner and deeper, though still drier than the 12L2 - but it sounds great). Up until now I'd just been using some cheap Monster cable that I got for free when I bought my Denon mini system a few years ago. With the new cable and I believe the DC6 well on it's way to breaking in (Tannoy says 24 hours is needed), I am finally starting to be swept up in the music. This hasn't happened in some time...I'm usually focused on this or that aspect of the sound, and not the music as a whole. But the system now is really musical, probably more than any system has been since I began trying new gear over the last year and a half. I guess it's what is referred to as microdynamics - those small changes in dynamics that give music it's bounce and seem to propel it forward. I'm hearing it now like I haven't maybe ever before. I'm not sure if it's the quality of the cable, or more so the fact that it's bi-wired, that is the reason for the big change. I'll have to get the 12L2 back up on the stands just to make sure I like the DC6 the way I think I do, but for now I'll continue letting them break in. I'm still a bit unsure with the imaging, and I think I hear the speaker reach it's limits on some of the harder rock that I feed it. Ultimately I suspect the Castle will be better at this kind of material. I just need to keep listening and not rush a decision. So I'll stick with the plan and run the DC6 for another couple of months before changing it up.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 13720
Registered: Feb-05
Enjoyed reading your impressions, Dan. Merry Christmas to you.

I would like to clarify one thing. What do you mean when you say "The speakers employ a metal tweeter, and it sounds like one"?

I think that experiencing bright or ragged HF is more in the design and implementation than the material used for the HF driver. I believe that some materials lend themselves to specific sonic characteristics easier than others and it's up to the designers of the drivers, crossovers, and speakers as a whole, as to what the drivers will sound like when the plan is implemented.

Take my Harbeths for example. Metal tweters that sound glorious. Open and detailed without a hint of fatigue. I've heard soft dome HF drivers on ProAc's that will flat take your head off. More to the story than just the material that the tweeter is made of.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 881
Registered: Dec-06
Merry Christmas to you too, Art.

I do agree with you. I wasn't meaning to say that all metal tweeters sound harsh, just that these ones did at first. Not the best choice of words on my part, saying they sounded like a metal tweeter, but a metallic quality to the sound was about right. However, after making those set up changes, that harshness is all but gone. Not quite as restrained as the 12L2, but the 12L2 sounds more closed in than the Tannoy. It will be interesting however, to go back and see how the 12L2 does with the LFD cable.

My old Tannoy Mercury F2 had a soft dome tweeter and it was definitely on the harsh side. Of course I was powering it with my old Denon mini system so that might have had something to do with it. Overall though, it certainly sounded great for a $300 speaker, but I think it points to what you indicated and that's implementation. And for $300 there is only so much a speaker maker can do in terms of refinements and driver choice.

The best tweeter I've heard so far, at least for my tastes, is on the i series from PMC. I have confidence that one of the three speakers I own now will work out for me (I'm kind of pinning my hopes on the Avons right now, simply because the DC6 sounds compressed on hard rock). If not I'm just going to trade them all in and spend a few hundred bucks to get the TB2i. I think it would be pretty sweet to own a pair of old Castles though, given that they are no longer being made and don't pop up too often in the used market.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 13723
Registered: Feb-05
I truly love the tweeters on the Harbeths and will likely replace the fronts in the HT with Compact 7's or Super 5's someday and move the Diamond 9.1's to the rear and put a nice integrated into the mix. No more 2 separate systems in the living room. My reference nearfield system in the home office is as good as it will get for me, I suspect. I will run short of cash long before improving on it.
 

Gold Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 1153
Registered: Jul-07
"Uh oh! Imaging problem. It seems there is a downside to crazy pinpoint imaging. On Wild Horses (from the album "Stripped") you hear Mick in the middle and Keith's guitar off to the right. There's another guitar to the left, but it doesn't play much. This is very distracting. Sound is coming from the middle and the right, but not much from the left. This makes it feel like my left ear isn't hearing properly. This seems to happen with only a few songs I've listened to so far."

Seems to me more to do with the production of the source material than the Tannoy's. They can only show you what they are being given. From what I know of Keith Richards, he's the one in a semi-coma off to the left not playin' much (intermitent lucidity), and some stand-in playing stage right. If things are too tripy with the imaging, double-check the polarity of both ends of your speaker/amp connections. If you've flipped one channel it will have an odd affect.

Those Tannoy's setup and fed properly should sound excellent. They're a very nice speaker.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 889
Registered: Dec-06
I think true point source speakers such as the Tannoys are known for usually having superior imaging abilities. I agree that the imaging is on the disc itself, and the DC6 is merely playing what it's being fed, but it's ability to image really emphasizes this aspect of the listening experience. Sometimes too much. Although what I think I'm finding is that I can quickly adapt to this change in sound.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1977
Registered: Oct-07
Swapped polarity on 1 speaker will usually manifest itself as a real bad bass problem. You'll know right away.
One problem with point-source speakers is that the dispersion pattern is spherical or hemispherical. So, you start getting ceiling / floor bounces factored in, as well as the walls. In the right space this can work well. Ohm has a real 'fan-base'.
I agree with Chris, though. Asymmetric recordings can be distracting. Like one channel isn't working properly. Some studio stuff can be like this.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 893
Registered: Dec-06
Leo, I'm not sure I understand why a point source design would have more floor and ceiling interaction than a non-point source design would.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1989
Registered: Oct-07
I just imagine equal radiation in either a hemisphere or spherical shape. Usual tweeters get beamier at higher frequencies. That would be IF the point source speaker were truly omnidirectional all the way up.
Maybe I'm thinking of my panels, too. They really change character when you get much above them. Standing up will do. I believe them to have less (not zero, though) floor / ceiling interaction. Some users like panels tilted back slightly. Just a few degrees would do. My panels were supplied with spacers to this end. Maggies, I was told, are considered 'line source'.
 

Silver Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 986
Registered: Dec-06
Well I've got the Castles hooked up now and they probably have something like 15-20 hours on them. Bass is definitely deeper, but for a floorstander in a pretty small room the bass very rarely becomes boomy. I've put a blanket down in one corner which seems to alleviate this on the very lowest bass frequencies, though again it's hardly ever an issue. Bass just isn't overblown and I get the feeling that the Avons present it honestly.

At first they sounded a little slow (the Castle sound I figured) and tipped up a bit on the low and high end. Boom and tizz I guess one could say. That said, the highs certainly do sound rolled off. No speaker I've heard yet has been able to play certain treble notes without those becoming a little too hot, but this just doesn't seem to happen with the Avons. It's a very unfatiguing speaker to listen to over long periods. That said, as time has gone on the highs sound more extended and liquid and it doesn't feel like anything is missing.

The good news is that the mids are really starting to open up as the hours go by, and there is some added richness that was lacking early on. The speaker sounds faster now too, though I doubt it's as fast as the DC6 (it easily wipes the floor with my Quads though).

Soundstaging and imaging aren't as good as with the Tannoy, but again are superior vs. the Quads. The sound is nicely detailed and very clear. I think this is the best speaker I've heard yet (or at least right up there with the PMC TB2i) in terms of separation and being able to hear everything clearly. Vocals benefit here as well, as it's easier to hear lyrics which may not have been as easy to decipher in the past.

The Tannoys too, got better and better as time went on too. It'll be interesting to see what I think when I eventually switch back to them. If you've seen my posts in the DAC section, you may know I'm considering amp and source changes (only because I have things I can trade in, and will likely opt not to upgrade my turntable). But I'll have to proceed carefully, as I'm liking the synergy amongst the pieces I've got now. A change in interconnects (Cardas Crosslink to van den Hul The Wave) has also seemed to really open up the highs and mid-highs, with greater clarity and vibrancy in that region.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 1011
Registered: Dec-06
Thought I'd provide an update....

I'm loving the Castle Avons! Superbly balanced, very clean, clear, and detailed with just enough bite, yet still very musical. It's a cliche thing to say, but they've literally got my feet tapping. Rythmic drive and the ability to track the beat are never lacking. The highs and mids have opened up with break in, and the lows have filled in nicely too, with a bit more fullness that was lacking when new. At first the highs sounded very rolled off compared to my Tannoy and Quad speakers. I don't know if I'm just used to them now, or if they have truly opened up. I suspect a little of both. Needless to say, this is a very non-fatiguing speaker to listen to, but it does not feel now like any of the highs are missing.

One thing I like about it's soundstaging ability - while the The Tannoy DC6 is adept at left-right soundstaging and are quite in your face about it, the Avons do that too (with greater subtlety), but they also do front-back and up-down more than the DC6. It's there when you listen for it but it doesn't stick out. The DC6 is almost a little too precise with the left-right placement of parts of the music. I've never really heard a speaker before that just gets out of the way - with the DC6 you can often tell the sound is coming from the left or right speaker. With the Avons, it's like they aren't there. It's like a band is playing right in front of me. I've got the separation that I like, and the big soundstage too, but it also sounds more cohesive. Like the imaging and soundstaging aren't the big priority; they are there, but are more naturally presented, and what is presented above all is music.

I mentioned clarity and separation, and to me this is one of the Avon's big strengths. I hear each part of a song more clearly. Lyrics, for one, are easier to make out. I hear bass guitar, as a second example, more clearly underneath the lead and rhythm guitar. But the cohesiveness is maintained, which must not be the easiest feat to master for a speaker.

That said, I like both speakers. I'm going to switch back to the DC6 to see if my impressions are still the same. While both speakers present a different take on music, they are each fun to listen to and I expect I will keep them both. The Quad 12L2 is definitely the loser in this comparison. Can't say it's a bad speaker, it's also got it own set of pros and cons that many would probably prefer. But for me in my room and in my system, the bass is a little too overblown, it's a little too closed in sounding, and simply too relaxed for the kind of music I like to listen to.
 

New member
Username: Thehills44060

Cleveland , Ohio USA

Post Number: 2
Registered: Sep-11
Very interesting read kbear. I own the Castle Howard S3's and worship them but have never heard the Avon's before. Don't you love the Castle's cabinetry though :-)? They certainly look nice.
 

Gold Member
Username: Kbear

Canada

Post Number: 1109
Registered: Dec-06
The Howard S3 looks cool. Don't know if I've seen a top firing woofer on another speaker before.

I get the sense the Avon wasn't quite as common as some of Castle's other speakers. I'm still really enjoying them. I just moved them about a week or two ago. Only a few inches forward and inward, then adjusted the toe in so that it was a bit less. This seemed to really tighten up the sense of pace and timing. Just goes to show how much small changes in placement can affect sound. I really liked the speaker before, but have a new sense of appreciation for them now.

Still trying to get a bit more out of them when it comes to hard rock. They are pretty good nevertheless. Perhaps adding a subwoofer is ultimately what I'll try. I've had a tough time with subs in the past. I'm probably going to try to incorporate a high pass filter to take some of the stress off my amp and the speakers. Without a high pass filter I will still have all the bass going to the speakers and stressing the amp. Apparently, filtering out all those lows will actually open up the midrange as that is all the speakers and amp have to worry about when not taxed with anything below 60-80Hz.

If that doesn't work I might end up replacing them. Doubt I'll actually part with them though. I love the sound for a lot of what I listen to and it's not like it's easy to get another pair of Castles these days. Worst case scenario is I'd build a HT around them. They are probably worth $500 on the used market because the name doesn't quite have the cachet of other brands, but frankly I think they are probably better than many other speakers that cost more.
 

New member
Username: Thehills44060

Cleveland , Ohio USA

Post Number: 3
Registered: Sep-11
I agree that adding a subwoofer is a must but because of their smaller size although i do not think you'll be able to run the subwoofer underneath the Avons like i do my Howards. I have a Velodyne spl-1500r. Some sort of crossover is likely the answer like you have described. Regardless i think the Avon's should not be relegated to simply HT duty as they are probably great 2 ch stereo speakers.
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