System Design Assistance
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-10 | Hi, I need some expert advice on designing a system for my garage. WHERE - Garage - 30' x 40' Area - 10' Walls - Wood (OSB) covered walls - Sheet-Metal covered ceiling (10' AGL) - Concrete Floor (w/ ~0.5" thick rubber-type epoxy covering) WHAT - Garage is for "Man-Cave", "Party-Pad", etc - Will have DVD Player connected to system (via either HDMI, or RCA L/R) - Will have PC connected to system (via phono->RCA; L/R adapter) OBJECTIVE - Provide deep "physical-felt" bass, primarly from music listening - Provide crystal-clear high-end/mid - Lastly, there is a bit of echo -- if reasonable to fit into budget, I might try some acoustic treatment. I'd like advice on designing the system, and figuring out what type of subwoofers, and main high/mid speakers, plus receiver. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4142 Registered: May-05 | How much are you looking to spend? Stereo or surround sound? I'm assuming it's for a mix of music and movies. To cut down on a lot of the echo, I'd get carpet, some thick tapestry type wall decorations, and som big couches. People assume you need monster power to play loudly. Not true. It's far easier and cheaper to get speakers with high sensitivity and an average powered amp to go really loud than it is to get a huge amp and average speakers to get loud. Hopefully you don't take loud out of context. I mean loud enough to fill your barn, er batcave, garage. I don't know your budget nor how many channels you need, but I'm betting I'll suggest Cerwin Vega speakers and a Harmon Kardon receiver. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-10 | Thanks for the information. I'm looking to spend something around $1,000 or less. I'm only looking for a, or two subs -- something that will produce deep bass that you can feel. And then just simple stereo, left, and right. Maybe a center. As for the receiver, just something I can do some fine adjustments on for high-end, mid, and bass and connect the inputs I listed. Also, I'm wanting to mount the speakers to the wall (I have exposed 6x6 wood posts that I can put a bracket on or build a shelf. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu Pitt, was looking at Cerwin Vega -- looks good... they have a lot of different models, but doesn't seem to be an easy way to compare.... any advice on model, or box? Maybe something self-powered with a built in amp... something also with built in woofer, and mid/high. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4144 Registered: May-05 | I haven't heard Cerwin Vega for a few model generations now. I threw their name out there because they're very easy to drive, go quite loud, and have huge bass. They can take quite a beating too. If you want to go the CV route, I'd get the biggest model you can afford. You've got a lot of space to fill. Not sure if their prices are per speaker or per pair. I highly doubt you'd need a sub with those behemouths. I'd skip the center speaker too. JBL also makes some easy to drive and loud speakers. They're typically better sounding, but they may not fill the space as well as the CVs. They also a bit more expensive. Same can be said for Klipsch. I mentioned Harmon Kardon for the receiver because they're well made and sound great for the money, and their power output claims are honest. A lot of companies like Sony manipulate their measurements to get specs like 100 watts, 200 watts, etc. when they rarely deliverhalf of that. 70 Harmon Kardon watts would run circles around 200 Sony watts IMO. Look on eBay for Harmon Kardon's store. They typically have refurbished and discontinued receivers with full warranty selling for great prices. Christopher Malloy knows a lot about that and has bought some stuff from them. He'll probably add to this thread. He just bought an HK 3490 and really likes it. It has a lot of good features for the money. Pair that up with the Cerwin Vega XLS-12, and I think you've got a system that'll fill that space very easily. Not really sure what the difference is between the CLS and XLS series. They seem to be priced about the same too. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4145 Registered: May-05 | Somehow I missed the part about mounting the speakers to a wall. I highly doubt the CVs or any others I mentioned will do that. If you're mounting stuff on the wall, I think you're going to need a bunch of small speakers and a few subwoofers. I think that'll complicate things way too much. If the receiver has a second pair of speaker outputs and you want to fill in the sound at the back of the room, maybe a pair of small speakers mounted on the walls will work. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu, Thank you much sir for your valuable information; much appreciated, especially the prompt responses being that it is Thanksgiving! I was looking at the XLS-15, a review I read comparing it to the CLS/CV leads me to believe that it is just a new-improved version. So, just to see if I'm thinking right -- if I get two XLS-15's, and the HK 120 receiver, that would be all I'd need to make the system work? Don't need a pre-amp, or another amp -- the XLS is self-powered? Do you think I should go with the XLS-12 or 15? Only difference I see is the size of the woofer? Is this a case of -- "Bigger is Better?" |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-10 | Hmm, looking at the XLS-215, has x2 15" woofers... hmm? |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4146 Registered: May-05 | I think I'm in the same boat as you - I'm relaxing after dinner and don't have much going on, hence the quick responses. All you'll need is the receiver and speakers. And of course some wires. The receiver is an amp, preamp, and tuner in one unit. The HK 3490 also has 2 digital inputs, so it's a DAC too. I'm pretty sure the sound quality of something like an XBox will be better using the receiver's digital input than using the XBox's RCA output. HK makes great receivers for the money. I'd take one over just about anything else for the same amount. Denon makes some decent sounding stereo receivers too, but I think HK is better and more powerful for the money. I think you're right about the XLS replacing the CLS. I'm not sure how much 'better' the XLS-15 is than the 12. You've got a large room, so it may make a difference. Maybe not. I'd say if your budget will allow it, get the 15. If not, I highly doubt the 12 will have any problems what so ever. Hearing CVs a lot in the past, I'd be very surprised if you'd need a subwoofer with them. Bass is definitely their forte. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-10 | Thanks again for the info, found an HK 3940, rated for the 120watts for relatively cheap. I was also thinking about getting two of the XLS-215's, rather than the XLS-15's -- what do you think? Think that extra 15" woofer will make a big difference? Also -- would there be any reason to choose the 120w over the 80w of the HK receiver, since the CV's have a built-in amp? |
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Silver Member Username: SuperjazzyjamesPost Number: 384 Registered: Oct-10 | Wall mount? Probably not the best in a 30' x 40' room. However, Mirage Omnisat OS3s along with a sub MIGHT do the trick. Floor speakers would probably work better for this application. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-10 | Well -- in terms of "Wall Mount"... I guess I can take the 215's and build a stand, or set them on the bench (which will be about 4' off the ground). |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4147 Registered: May-05 | The CVs don't have internal amps. I think you're confusing that "Power Capacity" spec. It's pretty much a meaningless spec, but what it's saying is how much peak power it'll handle, not how much power anything has. The 215 has been reviewed by a few audiophile sources. The Absolute Sound and Soundstage are two that come to mind. As I was thinking about that, a Google search of Cerwin Vega review had those as the first two links. The 215 is about $1k. The prices on CV's website are per speaker. If you can swing them and the HK, do what you've got to do. The more powerful HK has some features than the other one. I think its a far better value and the extra watts won't hurt either IMO. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 8 Registered: Nov-10 | Alright. I just purchased the HK 120, and two of the XLS-215's. Hope this turns out good. Also, think the HK 120w will drive the two 215's well enough to get out of them what I should? Would it be worth adding in another amp? Also -- I didn't notice on the 215's, but I'm assuming it has two inputs on the back -- one for the sub's, and one for the high-end? I saw where the HK 120 has sep. outputs for the speaker and the sub. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4149 Registered: May-05 | I think you're going to be very happy with the combo. I think the speakers have the seperate binding posts like you said. That's for bi-wiring or bi-amping. As to whether either will be beneficial is a can of worms. I'd leave it alone and keep things simple. There should be a brass or other metal jumper plate connecting the two posts. If you feel the need to tweak, you could replace that with a short snippet of your speaker wire. That usually works better, but not a huge difference by any means. If you're running short on power, down the road you can connect a seperate amp to the receiver and the bass portion of the speakers. The sub outputs on the HK are for a powered subwoofer. They're most likely an RCA connection. That basically simplifies connecting a powered sub or two. That won't go to the CVs. Now that you've got the components sorted out, you should focus on the most important aspects of how they'll sound IMO - the recording quality and the room. mp3 sucks. It cuts off the highs and lows, and makes everything sound congested. If you have your music on CDs, rip them as Apple Lossless, FLAC, or WAV. If you're using iTunes, use Apple Lossless and error correction. Speaker placement is critical. Putting them where they look best or where it's most convenient usually never sounds best. No point in spending all that money and not getting the best out of your gear. There's a few different ways to set up speakers. Google search Audio Physic speaker placement, WASP speaker placement, and Master Set speaker placement. They'll explain things far better than I can. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4150 Registered: May-05 | For an album that's recorded well and has a lot of different stuff going on that'll do well at showing you what your system can do, get Pink Floyd's Dark Side Of The Moon. It's also a great album musically. To understand why I hate mp3, rip a copy of it in low bit rate mp3 like 128kbps. Play the CD or an Apple Lossless copy, then play the mp3. Should speak for itself. Bad recordings in mp3 sound even worse. |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu, Thanks again for the information. I was looking at the speakers, and the receiver -- you're right. Looks like the output for the speakers (on the HK), and the sub output are the same -- it's saying to run wire from speaker A to the speaker input of the CV's, and one from the sub output to the woofer input of the CV's -- is that incorrect? Maybe I read it wrong.. Also -- I usually listen to music streaming from Rhapsody -- not sure the quality it streams at though. I've got some good high-quality, WAV ripped songs .. good one I found was Rock Candy by Montrose -- I've got the Pink Floyd album also -- will try them out. As for the placement of the speakers -- what I was thinking is attached...  |
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New member Username: ThowlePost Number: 10 Registered: Nov-10 | What do you think about Behringer amps? Specifically, the EPQ2000 amp? http://www.behringer.com/EN/Products/EPQ2000.aspx Thinking of getting this one to go from pre-amp on the AVR to the 215's |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4152 Registered: May-05 | I haven't heard Behringer stuff. Some like them, some hate them. I say stick with what you've got until you get it all set up. After the speakers break in a bit, you get everything set up optimally, and you get used to what the system is doing, you can re-assess if anything needs improvement. Thinking about improving a system that you don't have yet doesn't make much sense. Regarding break in, people swear by amps, speakers, wires, etc. breaking in. I'm not really convinced about all that, except for speakers. They have moving parts that need to loosen up a bit. Speakers usually sound harsh in the highs and a bit muted in the bass for a while. After a few weeks (most say about 300 hours of playing time), the speaker surrounds and tweeters loosen up and move easier. In regards to layout, all this is speculation because all I see is a rectangle, a bathroom and where you want the stereo... Try to keep the speakers out of the corners. The one near the bathroom is what I'm referring to. Corners reinforce bass, but they also have a tendency to make the bass boomy and flabby sounding. Think of a car driving by that rattles when bass hits. That's not what you want. The bathroom wall is probably a hollow wall, making matters worse. If it's possible, try them on the opposite wall, in the middle. That may be where the overhead doors are, and if so scratch that one. If the best/only realistic wall is where you have them drawn, I'd start in the middle of that wall - half way between the bathroom wall and the right side wall would be the mid point. At the end of the day, it's all about trial and error. Every speaker behaves differently, and every room sounds different. Add to that the best place isn't always the best sounding place, and it comes down to even more trial and error. Proper placement will keep them from sounding boomy, sounding like everything is coming out of the boxes rather than a soundstage, and so on. I'm pretty sure you're not looking for pin point imaging, but hearing two boxes make noise sounds like crap. If you're watching movies, you want the voices to sound like they're on screen, not like they're coming from the speakers. Set the speakers up properly, and they'll sound like you're using a center channel. I have my stereo connected to my TV too. No surround sound or center channel. When people watch a movie at my place, they'd swear I had a center channel. I had a few friends over for March Madness last year. They all said it sounded better than their surround sound systems. Not that I was asking them or bragging about it by any means. 2 good speakers placed right can sound a lot better than most people realize. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1863 Registered: Oct-07 | Stuff with capacitors.....speakers and amps all have a break in period. Not in the hundreds of hours, like some suggest, but more like 20 hours tops. I feel that the 'character' of most gear is very apparent after even that short time. Speakers may continue to break in mechanically over the next 30 or 40 hours. You CAN wire a 3rd speaker into some stereos. The 3rd speaker is wired from + to + but ONLY on those amps which are common ground. That is, both - leads are connected together at the amp.....and grounded. The 3rd speaker goes in BACK of you and will provide ambience / liveness information. Really heavily engineered studio stuff may not have any such extra information but LIVE albums are guaranteed to please. I have no idea how a modern movie might sound with this ambience recovery idea. Jan may wander over and give a more complete explanation, but this is basically the original 'DynaQuad' wiring idea and the start of matrix'd 4 channel. Unless you have complete confidence in the common ground setup of your amp, DON'T do this. |
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Bronze Member Username: ThowlePost Number: 11 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu, There really isnt any other place I can put those speakers.. A little more information though... I'm not done building the wall for the bathroom, however... the walls in the garage area 10' from floor to ceiling. It is a corrugated sheet metal ceiling. The bathroom wall is only 8' tall, and is made of 2x4's, with 1/4" OSB covering. The inside at this point is hollow, however I can pad the inside with whatever needs be to assist with the acoustics of the soundstage. What do you think? |
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Bronze Member Username: ThowlePost Number: 12 Registered: Nov-10 | Forgot to add... the speakers will NOT be on the floor, they will be at least 4-5' off the ground. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4153 Registered: May-05 | Why will they be 4-5' off the ground? They're designed to be on the floor. When you raise them that much, the tweeters and mid drivers don't line up with your ears. The frequency balance gets shifted and skewed. And not in a good way. Furthermore, those speakers are over 4 feet tall (sitting on the floor) and 116 lbs. That's going to have to be a very sturdy stand. A 4 ft tall speaker on a 4 ft stand will put the tweeters at at least 8 ft in the air. That'll put the 2 15 in woofers right on your face. All you'll hear is bass. Just trying to figure out the point in/reason for having them 4-5' off the floor. Does your garage flood? If so, 4-5'? If that's the case, the speakers are the least of your concerns. Or did you mean 4-5"? |
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Bronze Member Username: ThowlePost Number: 13 Registered: Nov-10 | Well you hold a good point. I plan to have a bench around the underside of the TV... the most I could do it set them on the bench.. which would be 3' or so off the ground. Hmm, this complicates things, a lot then... Maybe I could build the bench around the speaker... but then there will be some wood in the projection path... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4154 Registered: May-05 | I don't get the bench. Are you building it as a TV stand? If so, why not have it only as wide as the TV? This stuff gets complicated in describing them on a forum. |
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Bronze Member Username: ThowlePost Number: 14 Registered: Nov-10 | Alright well, my best option is to build a cabinet to put the speakers in that will be 4" (inches) off the ground, and wrapped around my bench. Will it mess with the acoustics of the speakers at all if there is a wood framed box around the side, bottom, back, and top of the speaker? Of course the front will be open through the projection area. When I get home I'll open cinema and make a 3D rendering of exactly what I'm talking about to give you a better idea... |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4155 Registered: May-05 | If they absolutely have to be on a stand, maybe angle them downward? Somehow chain them to a secure wall and angle them so the tweeter is aiming down at you. Kind of like in a club or concert hall. That's not going to be easy to make and get the right angle. |
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Bronze Member Username: ThowlePost Number: 15 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu, Thanks again for the information. Attached is a render of what I was thinking of doing when building my bench (referring to a work bench). Also, what you mentioned with hanging is an option too... I've attached a rendering of it done that was as well. Hanging, they are 25 degrees inward pointing, and 15 degrees downward pointing. Let me know what you think will be best. http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/thowle/Garage%20Building%20Project/?act ion=view¤t=Thowle-Garage-Speakers-1.png http://s532.photobucket.com/albums/ee328/thowle/Garage%20Building%20Project/?act ion=view¤t=Thowle-Garage-Speakers-2.png |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4157 Registered: May-05 | The pics are a bit dark and it's kind of hard to tell, but I think I have a good sense of what's going on. The best advice I have is try it out and see. You could also put the speakers on the floor in front of the bench if need be. Keep in mind that on the bench they'd be pretty much right up against the back wall, which could make them boomy in the bass. Most speakers work best at least a foot or two away from the back wall and corners. Is the pic the actual room or a rendering? It looks pretty nice from what I can make of it. If it's a rendering and the bench isn't built yet, you may be able to get away with making it not as long as the full wall, thereby making room for the speakers. Just throwing that out there, as I don't know what you plan on putting on the bench. I'm sure you know why it needs to be that size. Hopefully the gear will be there soon. Waiting is the hardest part of it all. |
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New member Username: SlaayyaaPost Number: 1 Registered: May-11 | how did the amp go with ur 215's? i am looking at a Harman Kardon HK3490 to drive xls12's. are you happy with the combo? |
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