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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 1 Registered: Nov-10 | Fellow Hi Fi Junkies, I am significantly upgrading my current home audio system and have just about settled on either the PSB Synchrony Tower 1's or 2's. I'm considering pairing them with either the NAD M3 integrated or the NAD C 275 BEE and NAD C 165 separates but am concerned about comments on NAD products sounding "polite". I'm also toying with Rotel separates (RC 1580 and RB1582) even possibly the Arye AX-7e. I'm scheduled to listen to all of these combinations but am interested in some real life feedback. thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15528 Registered: May-04 | . What's wrong with "polite"? I have my own opinions of NAD but, why does that word bother you? |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 2 Registered: Nov-10 | Sorry, I should have been more descriptive of "polite." I guess I mean overly warm or soft, lacking punch and/or definition and range as with rolled off bass or less than crisp or clear treble. Does that help? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15529 Registered: May-04 | . I certainly wouldn't say NAD has "rolled off bass" until you make a comparison at several times its cost. At that point most gear suffers by comparison, you tend to get what you pay for in the high end market. From what you've listed I would expect the Ayre products to justify their increased expense. I would caution you though against taking anyone's word for what you might hear. System construction is about synergy between components not the "sound" of any one piece of equipment. If you are familiar with the sound of live music and you use that as your guide IMO you can piece together quite acceptable systems which are neither polite nor aggressive. But you need somewhere to start other than simply comparing the sound of NAD to the sound of Rotel, Rega, Marantz or any other brand. It's not about how the equipment sounds but rather how music sounds reproduced through your system and in your room. The room will have far more influence on the final product than any piece of electronics or even your speakers. Are you planning on auditioning a system before you make a decision? Or, are you just listening one piece at a time? . |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 3 Registered: Nov-10 | That's certainly good advice. Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly and thoughtfully. Yes, I'm scheduled to audition all of the combination of amps and speakers I referenced in my post. Additionally I plan to audition the Linn Majik 140's and the Linn Majik I integrated on the same day. The dealer I'm working with has the capacity to hook them all up. Acknowledging your comment about my own listening room, I was trying to get some real world, not showroom, feedback with these combinations. I do have some logistical challenges in my listening area and am trying to select speakers that can cope with some lateral and a little front to back confinement. I've already ruled out all the planars and several others that have substantial placement demands. At some point I'll just have to make a decision and bring my choices into my livingroom. One other option just cropped up yesterday. I was planning (still probably am) on building a separate 2 channel system to use for music and leaving my my 5 year old 7.1 channel Pioneer Elite 130 w/ch system for TV and movies. Then I happened on a deal for the Pioneer Elite SC-09TX, their outgoing 10.2 channel, 200 w/ch flagship model for $3,000 off retail ($4,000 new in the box). I'm wondering whether it would suffice as a 2 channel system and serve to upgrade my surround system at the same time. I just don't know how much of an improvement it would be over my existing Pioneer for 2 channel. Thoughts? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15548 Registered: Dec-04 | no flagship avr. no. Let's get back to your listening space, available placement involving walls, and your listening likes and dislikes? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15549 Registered: Dec-04 | If a band/player/show comes to your town, who's performance would you never miss? |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 4 Registered: Nov-10 | The listening space limitations is one of the reasons I'm upgrading my system. I currently have Def Tech BP10Bs which are decent speakers for surround but the bipolar feature is somewhat defeated due to lack of sidewall space on the insides of both mains. Also I'm looking for a more direct, cleaner sound. I have less than a foot from a tall immoveable entertainment cabinet on the inside of both mains and about three feet to the outside of one speaker and five feet to the outside on the other. All are hard surfaces. Also the left main only has about 20" of backwall before it opens into a hallway. Not optimal for reflecting. Also I can only move either of them about a foot from the backwall before they are in foot traffic. This is one of the reasons I'm considering the PSB Synchrony because it has multiple ports in the rear of the speaker which are designed to be plugged to reduce bass if necessary. I'm an extremely eclectic listener from AC/DC to classical. Concerts I've attended this year include Clapton, a local philharmonic and a number of community choral presentations. Right now if they came to town I wouldn't miss Chrissie Hynde, Joe Cocker, Collective Soul or Steely Dan. I do love horn bands and tend to listen loudly. Thanks for any suggestions you can give. I knew I'd get the big thumbs down on the flagship AVR. |
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Platinum Member Username: PlymouthCanada Post Number: 15464 Registered: Jan-08 | Hi Johnny! Try Nad for the smootness with the efficiency of Klipsh, great marriage between both! |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4079 Registered: May-05 | Johnny, You've got some obstacles to overcome in your room, but pretty much everyone does. With that being said, you should look into speakers that work well close to walls. People say front ported speakers, but that's not always the best case scenario. Linn speakers as a whole tend to work well in these conditions. Not sure about the PSBs. I've owned 2 different models in the past (front ported) and neither worked well against the wall. Too much bass reinforcement. Of the stuff you mentioned, the Linn stuff is the highest quality IMO. That doesn't mean you'll prefer it. When auditioning the stuff, explain your room to the dealer. Maybe even sketch it out or take a picture. A good dealer will work with that and help steer you to what he has that'll work best. Some dealers will even come to your home and set everything up. My Linn/Naim/Rega dealer does this. No extra cost, as it's built into the price. Your dealer doesn't have to do this, and my guy may be the exception to the rule. I haven't heard the receiver you're referring to, but HT gear doesn't do what stereo gear does for music. The two are different and they're best left to do what they do best. A good deal is one that makes you happy for a long time, not which one gives the biggest discount IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4080 Registered: May-05 | Just to add, the Linn integrated and speakers mop the floor with everything you mentioned to my ears. Not even close. The others may go louder, but that's about it. If you're looking for a system that'll give you that live music feel, the Linn stuff will do that. It sounds less like a stereo and more like live music. I haven't heard the Ayre gear, so exclude that from my statement. Just my opinion. When you audition the stuff, forget about what a stereo should sound like and think about what a concert sounds like. Forget about politeness, smoothness, bass, etc. Just ask yourself if it sounds real. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15550 Registered: Dec-04 | Given the space, I might also suggest Audionote, at least for speakers. The AN-E is designed, and fairly demands, corner and/or backwall reinforcement. |
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Gold Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 1088 Registered: Jul-07 | There are wall mount Maggies (MMG-W) that would be an option, but another suggestion I'd offer would be the Gallo Reference Strada's. From all accounts they still sound amazing even mounted on the wall. The Maggies might require a bit more muscle in an amp, as the Strada's are very easy to drive. I'm seriously thinking about the Mapleshade mounted Strada's myself. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15551 Registered: Dec-04 | The Strada/sub from Anthony Gallo is often preffered over the ref 3.5 That is a very strong case to me personally. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 808 Registered: Dec-06 | I think I kind of agree with Stu about front vs. rear ported speakers. I think any speaker close to a wall will have it's bass re-enforced. Small speakers that are bass shy may benefit from this, others that aren't may not. And some (like Audio Note) are designed to be close to a wall and probably won't sound right if they are out in the open. An issue I've found with front ported speakers, and I think it's a common complaint, is port chuffing. You can literally hear the air rushing out of the port. So I've come to prefer rear ported speakers for the very reason that you cannot hear this rush of air (all you hear and feel is the bass). However, ports can be designed to minimize and possibly eliminate chuffing, so it all depends on the designer's execution. I think what you want to see is a flanged port, but surprisingly many speakers don't employ this. Some floorstanding speakers have their ports on the bottom, which I believe provide the benefits of both front and rear ported speakers. I have limited experience with plugging ports, I tried it with the Monitor Audio RX2 that I had for a few days earlier this year. Before plugging the speaker had warmth and fullness (too much so), after plugging it was too thin sounding. If you have multiple ports however, this might give you more room to tailor the sound because unlike with the RX2, you don't have to plug all the ports. With the RX2 there was only one port, so it was either plugged or it wasn't. Have you tried the PSB in your room? It might work, but I would personally be a bit concerned about a multi driver floorstander of that size just one foot out from the wall, with a cabinet in between them less than a foot away from either speaker. I have much smaller standmounts and find they sound best 2-3 feet out from the back wall, with nothing in between them. I get plenty of bass. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1797 Registered: Oct-07 | From the FWIW department: Some subs with dual ports are provided with a single plug. Plug IN and sub is in maximum extension mode. Plug OUT and you get maximum output. A switch changes whatever is necessary on the electronic front. Are there full range speakers with such arrangements? Or are some users improvising a plug? I'm not sure if that is a good idea. Now, I'd be open to experimenting with a partial plug....maybe a real thing layer of filter foam or a plug of glass wool. Air would still go back and forth, but be slightly restricted. |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 5 Registered: Nov-10 | Thanks to Nuck, Jan, Chris, Stu, Leo and Dan, for your great conversation. Although you have each raised some valid concerns and suggestions, the upshot of what I'm hearing from you is that I'm at least on the right track. The speakers I've narrowed to (Linn Majik 140 and PSB Synchrony 1's or 2's) have most of the location concerns covered, at least on paper. (Linn's have supposedly been designed for the European market with tighter space requirements, and the PSB's have three separate woofer chambers each plugable.) BTW Leo, both speakers are full range and I'm intrigued by your partial plugging thoughts. Also, I may be able to move my speakers up to 18" from the back wall depending on their depth. Wall mounting is not really an option because that would only further bury the speakers in a tighter corner up against a 6 1/2 foot entertainment center that's two feet deep. Seems like the only thing I can do now is listen to them in the store and then bring my favorite combination of speakers and amp into my listening area for the true test. As for the amp/integrated side of the equation, I'm not hearing any support for the Rotel separates so may not audition them. Regarding the Arye integrated, even though it's about $500 over my budget, possibly underpowered at 60 w/ch and has no sub out, I'm still going to give it listen based soley on reputation and strong dealer support. I still have a week or so before all of the various components are assembled for my audition so if you have other thoughts please be sure to pass them on. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15555 Registered: Dec-04 | Hold on J.B., nobody dissed the Rotel pieces just yet. If you want to match those rotels with some B&W 685's, ot older 805's (all on stands) then deal me in. 702's if you demand floorstanders |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15556 Registered: Dec-04 | Did you read on the Strada's? |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 6 Registered: Nov-10 | Nuck, I did audtion some B&W C-8's and C-9's in two different stores. They looked good but left me flat, literally they didn't have the dynamics I was looking for. Don't remember now what the power source was but think it was either NAD, Rega or both. I will listen to the Rotel's but not with the B&W's. Yes, I read on the Strada but the system that appealed to me (floor standing, full range) based on the description was about a grand over my budget. Also, I don't know of any dealers in the Seattle/Tacoma area. Guess I could research. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15557 Registered: Dec-04 | Did you read on the Strada's? |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1799 Registered: Oct-07 | Johnny B (good?) Here is link to HSU site where part of the advert tells about the 'hybrid' tuning of the enclosure. http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-15h.html The price point of the above link'd sub is massively competitive, so I'd expect this sub to really have to come to the table loaded for bear. If you live anywhere in Southern California HSU is within driving range. They may still give a cash discount and you than also get to skip the shipping. |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 7 Registered: Nov-10 | Stu and all, Interesting concept and design on multiported, adjustable sub. I'm going to experiment with the plugging of the full range PSB Synchrony and see if the adjustments allow the kind of tuning I need. I'm undecided whether I'll wire in my exitsting Def Tech 250 watt 10" sub or leave it out of the 2 channel equation. Right now it's servicing my 5.1 AVR system. I may either do without a sub, wire it in, or buy a separate sub for the 2 channel. Thoughts? |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1598 Registered: Nov-06 | I have not personally heard this pairing, but I had a local dealer that swore by PSB paired with NAD. I just did a dealer search on the PSB website, and it seems that they are no longer affiliated with them. No information as to why. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3300 Registered: Jun-07 | I think they are still both owned by Lenbrook in Pickering, Ontario. http://www.lenbrook.com/ In the UK there is now NAD speakers which openly admit they are re-branded PSB speakers. When my T762 went down I drove it to Lenbrook and saw parts of the shops where they repair, and test products. They had PSB speakers everywhere and even had a showroom which was all NAD amps paired with PSB. That was 7 years ago or so however. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4091 Registered: May-05 | Gavin, Was/is that store Hippo's? I'm pretty sure they dropped the line. Can't understand why. They sold a ton of PSBs when they had them. I bought both PSBs I owned from them. The dropped NAD for a while because they were having a lot of problems with the company (not the products). Paul (I think that's one of the owners' names) said they'd order 5 units, NAD would complain and say they should order 15 minimum, Hippo's would up the order to shut them up, then they'd get 2. To quote Paul - "They're a very stupid company." "The only reason we kept them around is because customers loved the NAD stuff so much." They dropped NAD a while back (and I'm assuming PSB at the same time), but I'm pretty sure they picked them back up. I thought I saw a NAD piece or two last time I was there, which was a few months ago. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3302 Registered: Jun-07 | Stu - My dealer literally said the same thing about having problems dealing with NAD the company, not the product. They still carry NAD, but almost or did drop it one time or another. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1599 Registered: Nov-06 | No it wasn't... It was an outfit in Valatie called "The Critical Listener" I just remembered it. I went to the website, and they have TOTALLY changed the lineup, to include Creek and Paradigm Makes me wonder if they had the same issue with NAD. I have never personally dealt with this dealership, so no point of reference. Last time I was at Hippos, the general consensus was that NAD has gone downhill .http://www.criticallistener.com |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 13400 Registered: Feb-05 | The fella I bought my wife's C325BEE also dropped NAD because he said the company sucked to deal with. He stated that NAD has no problem burning dealers. They still make a killer budget integrated, however. The C325BEE and C326BEE are the best budget amps I've ever heard. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Canada Post Number: 3305 Registered: Jun-07 | There is a C326bee on CAM right now for 325.00 cdn shipped. |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 8 Registered: Nov-10 | Nick, Art, any other NADers, I'm still pondering the choice between either the NAD M3 Integrated or saving $900 and going with the combination of the NAD 275BEE and the NAD 165BEE. Other than the price, what might be the advantages either way? I'm upagrading from a Pioneer Elite 130 w/ch AVR and want to be sure there's a noticable improvement. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15542 Registered: May-04 | . That will depend quite a bit on what you consider a "noticeable improvement". What would that be in your estimation? |
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New member Username: StudebakerPost Number: 9 Registered: Nov-10 | Well, yes, this all started with me wanting to improve on the sound of my Def Tech BP10B (bipolar) towers which are great for movies but not direct, clear and forward enough for my 2 channel listening tastes. Then of course, various hi-fi sales folks convinced me that upgrading the speakers was not enough, that I need to improve the source. Seems that the philosophy that I was raised in during the 70's, that speakers were the most important component in the stereo system and that you should spend up to twice as much on speakers as all other components combined, no longer holds sway. Hence the quest for an upgraded multi-component system. I don't really know quite how to answer your question except to say I don't want to invest $8-10,000 on speakers and electronics that don't produce a cleaner, clearer, more dynamic and accurate sound than the system I have. (Existing system referenced in earlier entries.) In reference to your question last Friday, I am planning on auditioning the components but don't know whether all of the NAD options will be available. (Might have to audition M3 in another setting) Also the Linn Majik 140's and Majik I Integrated will be part of that audition and I'm toying with some other options. It's all very subjective and, as you said, the most important test will come in my own home. Have I helped at all. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4096 Registered: May-05 | The M3 is better than the seperates IMO. Definitely not worth the price difference to my ears and wallet. For the price of the M3, there's far, far better sounding integrateds and seperates IMO. People love the M3, I just don't get why. For $3k, the Naim Nait XS will mop the floor with the M3 and leave you a couple hundred bucks to put elsewhere in the system or about 45 new $10 CDs. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 13406 Registered: Feb-05 | I think the M3 sounds like a s s, just my opinion. I like the more honest sound and value from the C326BEE. As Stu said there are many better to be had at that price including the Nait XS and Creek Destiny. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittStamford, Connecticut USA Post Number: 4097 Registered: May-05 | At least the M3 looks nicer than the rest of the NAD line. I heard the M3 with a Music Hall CDP and some Vienna speakers once. I almost fell asleep during the demo. I don't think it gets any slower than that system. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 13407 Registered: Feb-05 | That would be the cure for insomnia for sure. |