The Magnepan 1.7...

 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3321
Registered: Oct-04
I've been reading up on the Magnepan 1.7 and I'm curious. Anybody listen to these yet? What about the MMG?
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 13151
Registered: Feb-05
What about them, Chris. I've owned 2 pair of MMG's, SMGa's and MG12's. I divorced my last pair after a night of live music and an audition of the 1.6 vs the Vandersteen 2ce Signature. The Maggie was more exciting but the I didn't recognize the singer as the one who I had heard at close range the night before. I definitely recognized her voice in the Vandy's. The 1.7 is supposed to be a significant improvement over the 1.6 however for just a bit more you could have a nice used pair of DeVore Fidelity Gibbon Super 8's or for few bucks less than than the 1.7 there is a pair of the older 8's on Agon today. Easy to drive and very musical. The eight like quality solid state as well as tubes (Super 8's prefer tubes).

http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1288829203&/Devore-Gibbon-8-
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 13153
Registered: Feb-05
http://www.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?spkrfull&1288829203&/Devore-Gibbon-8-
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1572
Registered: Oct-07
MMG is considered an audio bargain. What are they now? 600$?
Available only mail order or on the used market. Big bass shy, some have built stands over subs and mounted the panels on top.....ALA MartinLogan.

The 1.7s are getting some decent press. The MG1.6s this model replaced were a tough act to follow, being in continuous production for at least a decade. These are now fully QR and are either 3-way or 2 1/2 way, depending on how you keep score.

Magnepan moves slowly. The basic technology has evolved rather than leaping forward.
The 2 more expensive models have true ribbons while everything else....1.7 on down, is called 'quasi ribbon'. QR, as it is called replaces the wire, which was glued to the mylar, with a flat ribbon. This makes it stick better, reduces mass and improves panel longevity.

If the new 1.7 is typical for Magnepan, it is a DIY dream speaker. Stands, crossover mods and entire hardwood frames are all on the table and said to produce positive results. I recently flipped my panels around, so I now listen to the pole piece side instead of the Mylar side. I put 'em back the way they were sold.....up until the mid '90s sometime.

If you try the MMGs, they have a liberal 30 or 60 day return policy. Except for being a PIA to ship in larger models, you've got little to lose. I don't necessarily agree with the 'conventional wisdom' about huge, high current amps. Even turned up pretty darn loud, I can't get my DVM to even flicker much above 20vac. 10vac continuous works out to about 22 watts at 2.2 amps........into 4.5 ohm. 100 watts RMS should produce satisfying levels in normal rooms. That being said, my Rotel RB1070 of 130x2 at 8ohms didn't seem happy with my 1.6s.

Give a listen and post back::
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1573
Registered: Oct-07
Just to answer one of Art's points::
Most Maggies are considered a 'reasonable load'. No wacky impedance dips and funny phase angles. Good SS is indicated. Bryston is considered a good match while I have never heard of anyone using Mac.
Low measured sensitivity works against them, while being dipole and perhaps even line source work in their favor.
Room placement can also take some time to work out.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3322
Registered: Oct-04
I have limited experience with MartinLogan and none with Magnepan. What I couldn't get over with the MartinLogan was the miniscule "sweet spot"; are the Magnepan any different, I suspect not? Any concerns with durability?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1575
Registered: Oct-07
As long as you don't over do it, you should be OK. Maggies limit at high powers differently than dynamic drivers. It sounds compressed to me while others report mylar 'slap'. It is possible, years down the line to delaminate the wire from the mylar. Magnepan uses 3M products since the inventor was a 3M employee at the time! 3M #77 is awful and the overcoat isn't much better. Modders report good luck with DAP, of all things. Keep 'em out of direct sun....good advice for any good speakers or electronics.
Since you can, with a staple pulling festival, remove the sock, you can do many repairs yourself. Sticking down some pulled wires is tedious, but low risk. While you've got it apart, might as well rebuild the crossover, too. Careful, here. JV has rightfully pointed out that 'parts ain't parts'. However, duplication of the original design with premium parts and aircore inductors is low risk. Getting a low enough DCR in the inductor guarantees large enough wire so that any power limiting there is eliminated. The 3.5mh in my 1.6s lo-pass will have about 160feet of 13ga and a DCR of about 0.38ohms. I'd have to check the spreadsheet for the exact numbers. Stock iron core is 16ga and 0.4 ohms DCR.
The mid/tweet on my 1.6s is fuse protected. Many modders simply remove the fuse by 'bridging'. I'll remove the connector panel and swap a wire from one side of the fuse holder to the other.
Others report good results with hi-fi tuning fuse, which at 30$ a pop offends me. A good sand filled ceramic fuse should be good, if you are REALLY scared of fuse microphonics!

As for sweet spot? Well, that sort of depends. The way Magnepan intends you to set them up, I don't like. I rotated the panel in place and the whole thing opened up. Tweeters are now about 70" apart and the speakers cross well in back of my about 10' seating distance. No more brightness (of course, I'm off axis) and the sweet spot is much larger. No comb effects, either. I've carefully moved a little at a time, listening to known material without audible effect. Even the far side seat is now good, sound wise. I can't forget the speakers bracket a 60" big screen.

Plans STILL include a big, thick rug on the far wall and diffusion behind and perhaps above / between the panels.
 

Gold Member
Username: Gavdawg

Albany, New York

Post Number: 1575
Registered: Nov-06
MMG has a very small sweet spot.

I also feel that while they have a warmer sound than ML (mind you, the last logan I had substantial time with was the clarity)...to my ears they have a slight boost in the bass and treble that the larger maggies lack.

This may not be an issue any more.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3348
Registered: Oct-04
http://www.avguide.com/review/magneplanar-17-loudspeaker-tas-205?src=Playback
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1593
Registered: Oct-07
Nice review, and mated with some really nice equipment.

One point the author makes is about 'tweeters in' for the 1.7s. Well, the 1.6s are meant by Magnepan to be 'tweeters out'. Magnepan had sort of changed their tune and now recommends experimenting with in or out. I would add to experiment with which side of the speaker you prefer as front.

But, IMO, the thing to learn from this is that panel setup is not cast in stone. Even ignoring builder guidelines is ok, if it sounds better. The rotation of my panels so i now listen to the 'wrong' side, according to Magnepan is the 2nd time I've ignored the directions and gotten great payback. I won't make the mistake again of not experimenting until I reach the finest setup of which my ears and room and equipment are capable.
The manual that comes with the 1.7 even recommends trying tweeter in or out for best results. The setup guidelines are pretty basic but will get you to a good place pretty quickly. Fine tuning can take longer, of course.

I may glance thru the pretty good list of reviews on the Magnepan site and see if anyone experimented further.
 

Gold Member
Username: Soundgame

Pickering, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1190
Registered: Jun-08
In a reference room setup or anechoic chamber, duplicating the testing environment that was used to design the speakers - the manufacturers directions will more always result in the best sound; however, in the real world, every room is different and everyone hears a little different, along with preferences. So, in short, I agree leo, you've got to experiment to find out what works best for you.

It makes sense - and the experimentation makes it all the more fun.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1599
Registered: Oct-07
I somehow doubt that Magnepan has an anachoic chamber, which as it turns out makes only limited sense with a dipole speaker. Some kind of 'standard room'? doubtless. I also don't think Magnepan has more than 40 or 50 employees, counting the loading dock.

Some years ago, ALL Magnepan speakers came with the pole piece facing the listener. I don't know when, but that changed in the '90s, some time. My MG-1s, probably late '70s came pole piece forward and marked Left / Right. Indeed, that was correct in all but 1 place I had 'em in over 25 years of ownership.

When I rotated my 1.6s to the, older orientation, it dramatically helped. When I build some real frames, that's the way the drivers will be mounted.

Experimentation is the rule of the day with Maggies. I noted in reading thru maybe 6 or 8 reviews for the 1.7 that only 1 reviewer made any such adjustments. shame on them.
 

Gold Member
Username: Soundgame

Pickering, Ontario Canada

Post Number: 1193
Registered: Jun-08
By the way - no wood frames on the 1.7's.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1602
Registered: Oct-07
Yes, I know. Aluminum trim may help stiffness? The same limits apply to ALL Magnepans. All framed with MDF.

That's why, instead of spending what would amount to OVER 1000$ to buy 1.7s, I think I'll spend part of that on an upgrade /tweak to my 1.6s and have them end up better than the 1.7s
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3355
Registered: Oct-04
A frame tweak sounds interesting, but don't you think using the "Quasi-Ribbon" design in all the drivers might give the 1.7 an unfair advantage when compared to the 1.6?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1608
Registered: Oct-07
Excellent querry, Chris.
This is JUST my opinion, but here goes.

The price difference between selling my 1.6s outright an buying the new, 1.7s would be about 1000$ mas o manos.

Now, what can I GET for a grand? Well, I can buy enough wood and hardware to build Sapele, or Mahogany or Sipo frames and stands. There would be enough money left over for Clarity SA caps and some aircore inductors. Build xternal xover enclosures and there you go. Can I do all that for a grand? And IF I do, would it sound better than the 1.7? I think so. The benefits of real wood frames for maggies are near-legend.

Please check out this link for 'inspiration'. I do, frequently!
These are some of the prettiest panels I've EVER seen. I go for this, even if they DIDN'T sound better! That's how pretty they are.

http://www.indiespinzone.com/magnestand.html
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3357
Registered: Oct-04
While I generally love real wood, there is something odd about seeing the Magnepans in what is (at least to my eye) a traditional looking picture frame? It might just get some taking use to?

As for MDF, most of the world's great speakers use an MDF substrate, so I'm not sure what the sonic advantages a real wood frame might offer, if any?
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1609
Registered: Oct-07
Chris,
Generally a speaker 'box' is supposed to be inert. Stereophile will stick an accelerometer on the box and check for resonant modes and all that jazz. When the box makes too much noise, you've got coloration.

With panels, so the story goes, you want to let the driver do its work without the deadness of MDF. Panels don't just go back and forth. Waves travel across the panel as well. Perhaps an impedance mismatch with the frame causes reflection on an MDF frame? maybe wood will abosorb such vibes? Maybe part of the key is that Magnepan holds the drivers in with looped staples.....while all modders either drill and screw the driver to the frame or make a sandwich design, holding the driver firmly to the frame.
I hate to go here, but another school of modder uses dynamat to damp the pole piece side and between panel and frame. I haven't seen any data OR heard a coherent theory about this, so reserve my opinion.
Others swear by the Mye Stand. This stiffens the entire panel with, to me, an awful bridgework look. Good stands for your standmounts probably cost as much.

Yes, the 'look' may be odd, at first. It grows on you. Magnepan, doubtless built to a price, dressed up in some beautiful wood is the obvious way to go, for me........
 

New member
Username: Peter_gunn

Post Number: 1
Registered: Sep-10
Leo, it's very nice to hear that the benefit of wooden frames has become "near-legend". When I made the first pair (4-5?) years ago and reported the results everyone said I was - wrong, stupid, ignorant, wrong, exaggerating, hallucinating, wrong, deaf, I had awful gear and oh yes, I must be wrong.

Well, I wasn't wrong.

Chris, I am sorry I don't have many current pics on my website. Most are early models and yes, I suppose there is a bit of a picture frame quality but I no longer make them quite like this. There is pinning, inner stringing, contrasting edging and lots of various design elements. I plan to start taking more pics and actually uploading those I have.

As for MDF, it is used on cabinet speakers because it does not accept vibration and you want to kill the rear wave that's inside the cabinet. That's not the case with planars like maggies. What's more, since it's driver is flat like the surface of a pond if the vibrational energy it creates can't get off (and on stock models it cannot) it is going to contaminate all subsequent waves. That's why maggies have smear and clarity issues when stock.

As for the 1.7 - I have heard a stock one and subsequently modded it. I don't like it stock, it's XO is artifically tilted and it has 2 very bad humps. It also doesn't have the bass a 1.6 does, (before or after modding) which I attribute to the fact that QR foil simply doesn't have the mass to sustain a deep bass wavelength. It may have slightly better mids than the 1.6 when modded, but I did not have it long enough to be certain.

Personally, between the two I'd choose the 1.6. Magnepan last tried to improve their product in the 90's, and how many incarnations of the 'I' series was there until it settled on the 1.6? Quite a few. The 2 and 3 series also saw multiple changes. Does that mean there will be a 1.8 in 2 years? Who can say but the 1.7 is neither perfect nor even necessarily better.

Thanks all.
 

Gold Member
Username: Magfan

USA

Post Number: 1627
Registered: Oct-07
PG::
Thanks for dropping by. Come back anytime.

All: PG has probably heard more different Magnepan models than any single listener short of the factory guys. As a lightning rod for Magnepan modding, he is without peer.

If ever a set show up here in Southern California, I'll schmooze my way in for a listen.
 

Gold Member
Username: Exerciseguy

Fort Hamilton, NY United States

Post Number: 3362
Registered: Oct-04
Nothing like getting the info from the horses mouth, welcome to eCoustics. I look forward to those new pics.
 

New member
Username: Peter_gunn

Post Number: 2
Registered: Sep-10
I think that's the first time I was referred to as the mouth end of the horse. Thanks.

Here is a brief example. Frames in maple with pins and inner stringing. (and no, the stringing does not effect the sound, and it may actually help)

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