DIY Room Treatments
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4053 Registered: Feb-07 | After a few years I've come to the conclusion that my listening room sucks. It's a pretty small room, maybe 10x14. It has a faux wood burning stove in the right hand corner (gas stove actually, but protrudes from the enough to take up space), a doorway with no door on the right side, and a cut-out in the wall to the left of the door about 2/3's from the floor where the stair landing is adjacent to the room. On the left side of the room is my CD rack, my equipment rack and a couple of shelves holding movies. The room is carpeted with a very comfy, plush couch pushed against the back wall. Nuck is pretty familiar with the room layout, so maybe he can chime in on some of the room peculiarities. The problem is that every speaker and every amp I try in this room sounds "off" for lack of a better word. It's subtle, but I notice it. The right of the room always seems to have more vocal, more cymbal, and a bit more bass. One of my projects this summer is to get rid of the gas stove. I've put my hand on the stove (while it's cold, of course) and the piping, while music is playing and it does indeed resonate, which would explain the bass reenforcement on the right side of the room. I'm wondering if some panels and bass traps in the corners will help "balance" out the room. I've read that a lot of DIY guys use panels made of "Owens Corning 703" insulation. I can't see to find this stuff. Is there something equivalent I can use? Thanks for reading my unusually long post. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14976 Registered: May-04 | . The marvels of the interent and pop up ads! You mention Owens Corning 703 and - whatdaknow?! - it shows up right beneath your question. http://www.atsacoustics.com/item--Owens-Corning-703-Case-of-6--1004.html There are several "equivalents" to 703. Call the various insulation manufacturers and talk to their service departments for the best ideas rather than relying on the interent for information. Some DIY'ers use rockwool which is normally even more difficult to find locally than 703 though 703 comes in several forms and can be found in unexpected places. You'd be better off finding these materials locally, start calling the insulation retailers in your area or call OC for a reference to a local retailer. A few 2-3" sheets should be sufficient to begin experimentation. You can also check the home improvement stores for acoustic ceiling panels made of 703 or a comparable material. You'll probably have to buy a box of ceiling panels and stack them to achieve the desired thickness. An even better idea is the pre-formed round or rectangular insulation meant for HVAC ducting, this is essentially what ASC uses to build TubeTraps which IMO are far more sophisticated than simple panels of compressed fiberglass. Place one piece of fiberglass batting down the center of the circle or rectangle and attach a base and top. This will provide the required surface area to double the efficiency of the trap. Like all damping materials, if you can place the material slightly away from the wall to get the direct pass through and then also get the reflected wave passing back through the material a second time, you get more bang for your buck. Experimentation is the key to this. An even cheaper idea is fiberglass batting in rolls, just watch the home improvement stores for decent pricing and buy a few rolls to experiment with. Strip off all but the last bit of plastic or kraftpaper on the outside of the material and roll the bat up to have the plastic be about half way around the outside of the final roll. (Wear gloves, long sleeves, safety glasses and a mask when you work with fiberglass [outside if possible] in any form and shower after handling the material. Don't be a tough guy in this or you'll regret it.) This plastic/paper covering will be your reflective surface which you can manipulate by turning the roll to achieve an even balance of absorption and reflection which is very important to good results. (If you have young children or pets that might pull on the material, you'll probably want to have some sort of covering over the fiberglass. Otherwise, if it isn't being moved and is stable, the chance of fiberglass detaching from the batting is slight. Use your own judgement no matter which fiberglass product you choose, this can be dangerous material if you inhale it or it gets in your eyes.) If you want something more decorative, any material with an open weave will work, just wrap it and pin it in place. One of the problems with the compressed fiberglass panels is there is normally no reflective material attached to it and you can get all absorption and not enough reflection. This results in a sound that lacks dynamics and life as the fiberglass is a broadband absorber which can't tell you only want it to be damping those frequencies between, say 60-110Hz with a peak at 85Hz. It absorbs everything that comes its way and all too often it absorbs exactly what you're trying to gain with a higher quality system. That is the problem with any sort of absorption techniques, they can sound impressive at first as the bass becomes cleaner and the midrange clearer but after awhile you begin to realize you have too much absorption and you start to pull the material out of the room to get back some of the life you lost with the damping material. There are probably as many acoustic treatments sitting in garages as there are old amplifiers and used cables. Don't overdo the absorption. Treat your corners lightly at first, only adding what you feel is needed and no more. Intersecting surfaces are where bass piles up and the result is lumpy bass without definition. You want to treat the room intersections - corners - at the ceiling and the floor, in between those two points you won't require large amounts of damping material though it might be easier to simply stack individual rolls of material about 9-12" in diameter all the way from floor to ceiling. If you can get by with treating just the corners, IMO, that's all you want to do. If you're trying to tame room reflections higher in the bandwidth, take one piece of material and afix it to some sort of support to provide stiffness then stand it at the outside edge of your speakers rather than trying to kill everything at the wall. I do think every room can benefit from acoustic treatments though over the years I've become less fond of packing a room full of "stuff" that kills the music with an elephant gun when all you want is a light touch to tame the bass or first reflection. (I think there are much better ways to deal with first reflections than just slapping fiberglass or foam on the walls. Diffusion works far better than death by fiberglass.) Do just enough and no more then, in about six weeks, take some of it out to make sure you haven't overdone the damping. . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4054 Registered: Feb-07 | Of course I'd rather buy locally, but I couldn't find this at my local Home Depot and Builders Warehouse. Thanks for the info, though, but one of my main concerns is that the weird reflections in the room are making my system sound unbalanced as I mentioned before. Do you think this is a valid hypothesis? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14977 Registered: May-04 | . Don't know, it doesn't sound like an ideal room for a sound system. But you work with what you got. You got any pictures posted on the forum? . |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1299 Registered: Oct-07 | Look up 'sound control' or 'noise control' in whatever you use. Industry and factories use these techniques and materials in order to keep from deafening the workers. I found such a place locally who will sell me all sorts of things, from raw materials to finished installations. Before I revisit, I'll go to the garment district in LosAngles and find some acoustic fabric which doesn't look industrial and will have a high WAF. Than back to the sound abatement store and get a 12 pak of OC703. OC703 is technically boiler insulation, so you may want to start your search for raw materials at a HVAC store. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15136 Registered: Dec-04 | Dave, move out the stove and get the speakers placed a little more evenly in the room, go from there. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 958 Registered: Jul-07 | "The right of the room always seems to have more vocal, more cymbal, and a bit more bass." Interesting that you list one item in each of the frequency ranges. Do you have your gear setup in a reasonable way Dave ? What I mean is, are your speakers placed based on any particular methodology or just where they fit ? Nuck seems to imply they are not ideally located. Also, what isolation do you have for your gear, or is everything just sitting directly on the shelf ? Is your rack designed to limit interactions with your components, or just hold your gear and be nice looking ? Sorry for all the questions, but I'm wondering whether you should play around with basic setup before you get into room treatments. If you said one frequency or the other was out of whack I'd say you're on the right track. But that doesn't seem to be the case. As Jan suggests, treating the corners is a great place to start for anyone. That's where all of my absorbtion is, except for one sheet of OC609 at the first reflection point on both side walls. I have diffusors at the front and back of the room. Seems to work well in my small room. I fully buy into the idea that getting your room right is the single biggest thing you can do to improve the sound of your system. I don't have an ideal room, but I can do what I want with it. It looks like heck right now, but it sounds great to my ears. I have to pretty it up someday when I have some time. If you end up needing some insulation, look in the online yellow pages in your area under "general insulation". I found a spot locally here that sells just about anything, at very affordable prices. Someone is supplying the contractors in your area. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4055 Registered: Feb-07 | It's definitely not the ideal room for audio. The stove is the first priority. When I'm on vacation in a couple of weeks it's on my list of things to take care of. To address you questions Chris: I've tried to place the speakers equidistant from the side walls, but the stove in the corner makes this difficult. My rack is of reasonable quality and the amp and CDP are sufficiently isolated. I think the placement of the rack itself may not be ideal; it's on the left side wall and protrudes into the room a fair bit. Probably would be better to move this to the front wall between the speakers. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 3092 Registered: Jun-07 | Is it possible David to move your speakers to the wall where your rack/amps/dvd bookshelf is and move that stuff to the back wall where your speakers are now? Make sure nothing is in between the speakers if you can, and move your seating in the middle of the room facing the speakers? My room sucks too. I am simply using my family room upstairs and there is no room for improvement (WAF) |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4056 Registered: Feb-07 | Nope. There's no way that'll fly, mostly due to the room layout. Another problem is that I share the room with the kids, too. So there's toyboxes and lots of other stuff down there too. I'm wondering if the opening on one of the side walls into the landing is also an issue. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2392 Registered: May-06 | Dave, There are a lot of things out there that deal with some of the issues. As JV an you discussed above, fiberglass is one of the options, as are ASC bass traps. ASC Corner Bass Traps may be a worthwhile investment. There are things you mention in your room that could also be manipulated to be useful weapons for diffusion if set up at the first reflection points. Check out Machina-Dynamica for some stuff that seems off the wall but really is effective. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4058 Registered: Feb-07 | Step one is complete. The gas fireplace is gone from the listening room. I think it sounds better already. At least the room seems much bigger and there's more speaker placement options. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 3094 Registered: Jun-07 | Saweet! |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1173 Registered: Jun-08 | Dave - man you're fast - what did you do - pitch that stove out right through the wall like Superman...LOL. I've seen shots of your room here and there but it would be good to get some pictures up here. You'll always be able to reference the pics in the thread. I'd take shots of each wall, capturing them from corner to corner. Measurements of the wall and of the key items that are immoveable would be good. A little work may help this go faster. I'd start with getting the room in as even/balanced a configuration as possible first. If you can close up any of the opening with drywall or a bookshelf or something like that. Can you add a door to the doorway? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4060 Registered: Feb-07 | I wanted to pitch that sucker right through the wall! Seriously, I got the idea in my head this morning at work, took the afternoon off and went at it with a hacksaw. Trying to get the room more even... the speakers are now more or less equidistant from the side walls, and pushed back a little closer to the front wall. A door is a no go on the room, and I ran the idea past my wife of plugging up the wall opening, but that's a no go too, since the kids play down there, and we like to be able to look down there and see what they're up to. I feel like I'm making progress though. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1302 Registered: Oct-07 | It would require opening up a wall, but a pocket door....you know, a sliding door which hides inside the wall when open is a good way to work something like that. You can even fix it so the kids can't close it. At least until they get a little older. You didn't sawzall the darn thing in half, did you? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15139 Registered: Dec-04 | I think Dave is gonna get my sorryass to help on Saturday. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1303 Registered: Oct-07 | Tell 'ya what, Nuck, You show up here and let my wife flog you for a day with yard work. I've got trees which need trimming. Wife will make you some wonderful Mexican chow for lunch and you can hear her famous line.....'I only put in 1 chili!' They won't let you back on a plane for 48 hours. I'll help Dave with his stove and room mods. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4062 Registered: Feb-07 | The only think I need help with now Nuck is to carry the damned thing up the stairs. What's left of it anyway. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15140 Registered: Dec-04 | We can have a better look at the room then, Dave, maybe take some pics, and review the ideas and options that you have up till now. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4081 Registered: Feb-07 | I've also now moved my audio rack to the front of the room, in the center between the speakers. This seems to have a made a positive effect as well. Things are getting better. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15003 Registered: May-04 | . What type of foundation is your house built on? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4082 Registered: Feb-07 | Concrete. My listening room is below grade, 3 outside walls of concrete. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 968 Registered: Jul-07 | Are the concrete walls just covered Dave, or studded and insulated ? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4083 Registered: Feb-07 | Studded, insulated and drywall. Carpeted floor too |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15166 Registered: Dec-04 | It is a standard finished concrete room, guys, with lots of stuff in it. About 15X13, I think |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4084 Registered: Feb-07 | Trying to cull the stuff out of the room. As the kids get older, it becomes easier to remove the clutter. But I'm sure there'll be new clutter. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15005 Registered: May-04 | . If the floor is carpeted, your audio rack needs to be placed on spikes. Done? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4086 Registered: Feb-07 | I'll add that to the list Jan. What else? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15008 Registered: May-04 | . Rub your tummy and pat your head while whistling "The Star Spangled Banner". |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15174 Registered: Dec-04 | Actually, do The Hockey song. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2404 Registered: May-06 | The Blackhawk's song Chelsea Dagger by Fratellis he meant to say. Is there space behind your listening position to move your CD rack with the CDs staggered, offset, and on angles where possible? |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1349 Registered: Oct-07 | Install a bookshelf as diffusion / absorption? A nice corner setup can double as a bass trap. Stagger book sizes. Much more expensive, dirty and time consuming would be to pull some of the drywall and install OC703 in 2" thickness. There are also some drywall products advertised as having acoustic properties. Good ones, that is. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4087 Registered: Feb-07 | Mike mentioned something about staggered the CDs on my rack as well. Makes sense. Ripping out drywall is just not an option all ;-) |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15182 Registered: Dec-04 | A diffuser, Dave. As opposed to absorption. Stagger the Metallica cd's and Barbie Video cases, for example. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4088 Registered: Feb-07 | Heh heh. B doesn't leave the Barbie videos in place long enough to be a good diffuser. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15186 Registered: Dec-04 | I suggest having another daughter, perhaps twins. Dressed in frill, soft materials (usually pink), the mobile sound diffusers can soften any room. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4089 Registered: Feb-07 | That ship has already sailed my friend. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4090 Registered: Feb-07 | The room after removing the fireplace and moving the audio rack:    |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgamePickering, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1177 Registered: Jun-08 | Dave, you should try this - it worked for me when I tried it. Put a quilt or blanket over the TV so the screen is covered when you listen. You should find the soundstage becomes deeper and the vocals more centred. Can you get some foam/fabric in the corners behind the speakers or make something out of fabric that is a little more presentable...how about taking Nuck's approach with the curtains behind the speakers or perhaps drapes on a rod that goes across the width of the room - you can then pull the drapes closed to cover the TV and they will sit behind the speakers. - should help and is low cost. Could even do some floral prints to please the wife...LOL. Are you Sttafs on carpet spikes that reach down to the sub-floor? Is that a Robert Bateman print on the left wall? I have one myself and my brother collected a few - he's even got the Midnight Black Wolf. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2408 Registered: May-06 | I use an Auralex foam panel horizontally in front of my TV which is directly to the right of my listening position. I have broken the audio set up away from the HT set up. I only get one man cave so moving it to another room was not an option. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4092 Registered: Feb-07 | That is indeed a Bateman George. Good eye. I have a couple of them. So you guys think the TV behind the speakers would cause problems? A curtain behind the speakers is not out of the question, but floral prints are. I'm the same Mike, I only get one man-cave too. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 976 Registered: Jul-07 | I agree. Try it before doing anything permanent David. Throw a heavy blanket or quilt over the TV, and try to hang some old curtains or something on the back wall. I'd also throw a couple of sleeping bags in the front corners. Play around before deciding what combination works best, then decide how to make it look pretty, and more permanent. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15190 Registered: Dec-04 | I agree with treating the front wall and corners with toss-on materials! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 978 Registered: Jul-07 | You get added points for use of duct tape, baler twine, or blu-tak. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15014 Registered: May-04 | . Anyone out there ever heard of "single speaker demo rooms"? Linn promoted the idea in the '80's and every Linn dealer had to agree to having no more than the single pair of speakers being shown in the room during the demonstration. The concept was so sucessful many non-Linn dealers were forced to accept the concept - due either to their personal experience and the improvements perceived or simply due to the competition beating them to death about how inadequate their displays were. Unfortunately, the idea has all but disappeared from dealer's showrooms due to the increased time required to perform a proper demonstration, dealers are lazier today than we were in "the old days". Most dealers are interested in moving boxes and few are out there talking to clients about the most subtle ways to improve their sound without spending money. I know that no one who shares a single space between a music system and an HT system wants to hear this but removing all the other speakers will gain you sound quality if your music system is up to the task of showing it. On a rainy Saturday, take all the extraneous speakers out of your listening room - even a telephone - and give a listen. Make sure you wire them correctly when you replace them. Also, turn off your wireles routers, computers and any source of RFI or EMI including passive magnetic sources. Unplug the HT system (before you disconnect the speakers), there are quite a few sources of unwanted radiation and noise coming from those components, those you perceive and those your system responds to. Change your environment as much as possible to remove "distractions" or deterrents to your relaxation and concentration or to the workings of your system - even those you might not think about at first. If you've spent thousands on your system, how much is your time worth to do a little house cleaning to make it all perform to its potential? The room doesn't have to be spotless, many of you wouldn't feel comfortable in a room that didn't look lived in. But make the room friendly to yourself and to your system. Get the pile of cables out of the back of the room and put the old CD players in the closet or the garage. Make a small ritual of doing some housekeeping before you listen and while you are relaxing into and thinking about the event of hearing good music. Think about a good experience you recently had with live music, get your head into the music and not the system. Do this even if it's just picking up LP's/CD's and organizing them or folding a few things to get them off the furniture. Light a candle or some incense, something light and relaxing like a sage fragrance - no joke, you think it was just the hooch that made that ol' Marantz system sound good down in your basement when you were a kid? And, no, a bacon scented candle isn't what I'm suggesting. Figure out your own "ritual" but do something to prepare yourself for music. When you go out to hear live music, aren't you thinking about the experience long before the band starts playing? Why should you expect your music at home to be any different? Get yourself in the mood for music and stop listening to your system. Keep household chemicals - any chemicals - out of your listening room (Nuck, get the lawnmower and the car battery out of the room), they are bad joo-joo for your senses. Get rid of the fake room freshners plugged into the Ac outlets. The environment should be a pleasant experience to walk into, not a hospital room. Take a few minutes each time you begin using your time as a talisman to your experience and soon it will take less and less time to settle into that relaxed point of the night where music sounds better. What you perceive is in your head, not in your system. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15015 Registered: May-04 | . DM, dress your cables. That jumble of wires going every direction isn't helping your system at all. If you don't know how to dress cables, ask. As much as for the appearance of your system, dressing cables removes potential sources of noise leaking into adjacent components. Your room is not symetrical in front of your speakers. One side has shelving units half full which react as a semi-solid surface to your speaker's side while the other side has a bare wall farther away from your right hand speaker. Rather than sleeping bags - which most families don't have enough of to actually do much good - stack boxes stuffed with lightly crumpled newspaper in the corners to act as absorbers. You can buy or beg empty boxes and newspaper for a few dollars. If something as rudimentary as a box full of crushed newspaper makes an improvement in your sound quality, then you are in serious need of more sophisticated devices. Get rid of things that can resonate - like that bottle on top of your one speaker. Do you know how to use a flashlight or laser pointer and a mirror to find reflection points? Which speaker set up program have you relied on the most? . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15191 Registered: Dec-04 | My suggestion beyond the boxes would be the large paper yard waste bags. I was just changing the lawnmower oil for a few days in the listening room... |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 4099 Registered: Feb-07 | What do you mean by "dressing" my cables Jan? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 15022 Registered: May-04 | . Cables need to be sorted by type and grouped together in individiual bundles. Power, low level and speaker level go each with their own kind. Keep each bundle as far a way from the others as possible, six inches in ideal so make an attempt at runing down each side of the cabinet and one down the center. If the legs of the rack are magnetic, don't place your bundles close to the legs. Since consumer audio is not consistent in how they position their ins and outs and pc cables, cross wires at a 90° angle. IOW, cross an interconnect with a power cable at a right angle. Do not bundle the cables tightly together but just enough to mantain the bundle and make later access easy. Any two (dissimilar type) cables that must run parallel to each other should be separated by that same 6" distance. This would also be a good time to do some housekeeping and clean your connections with Pro Gold. Most people will also hear an improvement in sound quaity if they have the ability to apply any sort of anti-static treatment to their cables about every six months. This is particularly helpful when you have cables laying on a synthetic carpet or tiles. Rather than laying your cables on a carpet try elevating them above the carpet with simple risers. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15208 Registered: Dec-04 | tie wraps can be used to support and group the cables, but only in a loose loop. That makes a hanger loop to go on a screw, etc, in the back of the shelf. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2410 Registered: May-06 | Hockey pucks make simple risers for cables. Safe around kids too. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 15215 Registered: Dec-04 | The leafs seldom use theirs to practise... The Sens have bags of pucks available as early in the spring as possible. |
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Gold Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 1373 Registered: Oct-07 | Go BlackHawks! |
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