Upgrade path for Naim and Totem system

 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 1
Registered: Mar-10
Hello all,

I'm currently the proud owner of a beautifull Naim/Totem system. My set consists of a Nac122x/Nap150x/CD5x/FC2x and a couple of Totem Arro's.

All sounds great but ... the upgrade bug has bitten me again. Problem is I that I do not know what is wise (choose wisely he said ...)

Should I upgrade the speakers ... and if so does anyone have some ideas or should I upgrade the hardware ... and if so ... what part.

My listening room is quite small (4m in depth - about 12ft and 5m wide - about 15ft). Who has some usefull ideas ???
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 881
Registered: Jul-07
What has prompted the upgrade bug ? There must be something you are hearing that you think needs to improve ?
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 2
Registered: Mar-10
The Arro's are great speakers but I wonder whether there is more. I love the fact that they are fast and with acoustic music they sound beautiful. But ... sometimes I wish they have a more articulate bass in low volumes and some more openess in the highs.

I've made a big upgrade when I bought the FC2x and the pre/power combo (in stead of the nait5i). I didn't realise that this would be such a big step (it was a giant leap)... Now I wonder if I can make another leap by changing the speakers.
 

Silver Member
Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 120
Registered: Aug-05
Rudi hi how about budget?
bookshelves?

speakers would first be the biggest change,,
I'm not sure what classifies as upgrade but I think it will sound better ., sorry more towards what your lacking.

why not stay with totem and bring your amp and go listen to the model one signature

or I like elac 243 or 207
or

I'm listening to sonus faber concertino domus

list goes on and on.

theaudioguy.ca
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 3
Registered: Mar-10
What is the difference between the one signature and the arro? In what do they improve?
 

Silver Member
Username: Hawkbilly

Nova Scotia Canada

Post Number: 884
Registered: Jul-07
Rudi, did you buy your existing gear from a dealer ? If so, why not pop in there and ask them about options. They should have some recommendations about what a good match for your Naim gear might be, once they understand what your priorities are.

Before leaping into the upgrade pool, explore your options, and do some listening. Maybe moving up the Totem line will make sense, maybe you'll find what you are looking for elsewhere.

A sub would add some additional bass to your Arros. If the treble extension isn't what you think it should be have you tried mounting your Arros differently ? What kind of stands are they on ? How are they coupled to the stands ? Have you explored other speaker placement options to improve things ? What is the room like that they are in ? Is it carpeted ? Improving your room will improve the sound greatly without spending anything on new gear.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14718
Registered: May-04
.

At present you system is reasonably well balanced. If you are dissatisfied with any component's performance or the system overall, I would not begin by replacing the speakers with higher resolution models as the greater resolution will tend towards displaying exactly what was holding back your original speakers. After all, that is the purpose of a more exacting speaker, to be more exact in reproducing what it is fed. The Totems should not seriously lack in any area until you are making comparisons well beyond their price range. And new speakers can at that point really only change the presentation not improve it if nothing more is coming into the speakers.


If, on the other hand, you are tiring of the Totems character, then "different" might be where you want to head.


From the description of your components I would say you are at the point where you need to pay attention to the details of your system and, as suggested, your room. No component can overcome existing problems in these two areas. They are the most overlooked aspects of good system set up mostly because too many peple find buying a new amplifier or speakers more attractive and just plain simpler to understand that the effects of good AC power management or room sound.


The room is, however, responsible for as much as 90% of what you hear through your system and small, often free-for-the-labor changes can result in dramatic improvements in musicality and total enjoyment. The incoming AC is the lifeblood of the system and, if it is not attended to, it will pollute the entire system with hardened, raspy or truncated, thickened highs and sloppy bottom octaves. Of course, system set up also requires attention toward proper isolation of all components, coupling and decoupling as needed to clean up the music and bring it to life.

Transparency is the goal and no component with a higher pedigree than your Naim can do any more until you do your part with the passive parts of the system.


Without a piece by piece description and lay out of your exact system and room, a visit to a qualified dealer who can spend time explaining the difficulties of system set up in a small room would be your best bet.




If you would like to begin with an experiment, read this; http://www.tnt-audio.com/casse/waspe.html

Try some experimentation with nothing more than speaker placement within your room this weekend and see if that doesn't warrant more investigation of other ways to clean up the system you presently own. Take note that where you place your chair is equally as important as where you place your speakers and, if one is off, then the other will never be at its best.


.
 

Silver Member
Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 122
Registered: Aug-05
Hi there I still stand by my recommendations..
fine, room layout matters... good article jan.
But do take your amp to a store and see and hear for yourself.

you can always alter the sound in a room with panels etc.

Difference between the two isn't even close Rudi
ofcourse an upgrade in price too,,
you get here what you pay for.

But a speaker that most people really like is one with a forward sound,,almost where you can actually feel the music.
These totems do that.
you must hear them yourself!

Call up your local totem dealer and inquire on matching components.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_8_4/totem-acoustics-signature-speakers-10- 2001.html
http://www.audioxsell.com/classified/463567/Totem-Model-1-Signature.htm
another review
http://www.soundstage.com/revequip/ian02.htm

theaudioguy.ca
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14797
Registered: Dec-04
Read and learn Rudi. I have heard 100k$ systems sound bad in poor rooms.
The upfront presentation of the Naim gear is enough reason to be sure of speaker placement in relation to changes you make to your room's dynamics.
 

Silver Member
Username: Pablo

Post Number: 176
Registered: Mar-06
The question is:" is this listening room a designated stereo listening room?"
I have separate HT section in my basement and speakers are set up properly (I think), but for music I have stereo system in living room which is not designated listening room. It is just regular family townhouse living room with furniture, plants.... and stereo system.
I also have totem Arro's with Arcam AVR right now, and squeezebox as a source. I am thinking about getting mcIntosh MA6300 and a dac for a squeezebox. But I will not be able to play too much with a room. My Arro's are in the corners about 6 inch from walls. I have 8 year old son who runs around and can not have them further exposed. Can not put area rug or acoustic panels.. for esthetic reasons. After all this is my leaving room with stereo system in it, not reverse. So I guess we have to compromise.
But getting back on the subject I have the same opinion about Arro's. They are superb with certain kind of music (jazz, acoustic guitar, piano, classical), very detailed and forward, but not so good with other (heavy metal, rock, pop, and dance) - not filling the room. I am not ready to give up on them yet. I am working hard on my budget now to bring MA6300 and DAC and will give them second chance before I will think about replacing them.

Pablo
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14721
Registered: May-04
.

"But I will not be able to play too much with a room. My Arro's are in the corners about 6 inch from walls. I have 8 year old son who runs around and can not have them further exposed. Can not put area rug or acoustic panels.. for esthetic reasons. After all this is my leaving room with stereo system in it, not reverse. So I guess we have to compromise."


Most systems are a compromise of some sort no matter the intent of the room. You know better than I do the possibilities of your living space but there are options available to you if you care to try.



If you are absolutely content with the music quality you hear from your speaker's present location, then there's nothing more to do. If, however, you've never tried any other location, you might be surprised at the improvements which can be achieved. Personally, IMO I've never heard a system that sounded its best when speaker placement was determined by where won't they get run into or where do they fit behind that sofa.


Maybe you only use the system when your son has free run of the room. I don't know any more than I know just how dangerous your son can be. I will tell you the WASP system was developed not only for good music reproduction but also for maximizing the available living space around the speakers.


If you're home alone one afternoon, I would suggest you try the set up and make up your own mind which location works best for the music.


If you prefer a speaker location away from the room corners, mark two corners of the speaker's location on the floor - a small dot of tape or a loop of thread depending on the floor surface and you can move the speakers in and out of danger as needed.




"I am not ready to give up on them yet."


Fine, I would suggest you at least read a bit about speaker set up and room acoustics before you give up on your speakers. What's it going to cost you to read?


.
 

Platinum Member
Username: Jan_b_vigne

Dallas, TX

Post Number: 14722
Registered: May-04
.

"But a speaker that most people really like is one with a forward sound,,almost where you can actually feel the music."


Not sure what you're "feeling", vm, but I would agree the music should move the listener in some manner. Other than that, a "forward" sound is personal taste and is often designed to sell quickly rather than move long term.


.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3767
Registered: May-05
Rudi,

Looking at your system, the weakness is the speakers. You've got a fantastic source and pre-amp that are powered by a great outboard power supply, and a great amp. A better pre-amp may yield some better results, but not enough to warrant the price with the Arros IMO. A better pair of speakers will show that improvement better.

The Arros are great speakers. One of my favorites. But, they're pretty much Totem's entry level speaker.

Assuming that the room and equipment are set up appropriately, a better pair of speakers is probably your next move. Suggesting what speakers to use isn't going to get us anywhere at this point. There's far too many out there. Get out to a dealer and hear what they have. They should get a sense of what it is you're after sonically.
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 4
Registered: Mar-10
Hi all,

Thnx for all advise, it really helps to put things in perspective.

About placement.
Yes I use my living room as listening room. All is setup properly. I can't however change much. Placement is decided together with my wife but is far from bad (my dealer helped me in this and in his opinion it should work ok). And what's also very important I love listening on my favorite coach to my music. Conclusion ... i leave this for what it is.

After reading the comments I think for me a different speaker can do the trick. One questions about that:
I've heard the Totem model 1 signature (however not on my amp). I really loved the sound a lot. But after reading all this, is my 150x strong enough in driving them?

Has anyone has experience with the Neat Elite SX and the B&W805 on a naim system? Just some ideas from other reviews. However the Totem one's sound like music in my ears
 

Silver Member
Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 125
Registered: Aug-05
your welcome bro


try your amp with them
there's no rush.
emotion,,
feeling its all relative Jan
and 150 x2 is plenty .....


used ad in my post earliar are fine too
theaudioguy.ca
 

Platinum Member
Username: Nuck

Post Number: 14801
Registered: Dec-04
audioguy, what are you referring to with 150X2?
I have not heard of a Nap150X 2 ?

The 150X is a 50 wpc power amp, of course, right?
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 5
Registered: Mar-10
My 150x is indeed 50wpc - so is this plenty ?? ... if so than i'll have a date with my dealer ...
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3768
Registered: May-05
I don't like Naim and B&W at all. Not that you won't. I'm not sure the 150x will drive them with the utmost grip and control either.

Neat is a very popular pairing with Naim. Never heard Neats, so no opinion.

PMC is a very popular pairing as well. Great synergy and get up and go. Not the easiest speakers to find however.

See if the dealer will let you borrow a pair of Models 1s to try at home.
 

Silver Member
Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 127
Registered: Aug-05
sorry nuck and rudi I read it wrong.

its worth trying your amp anyways with the sig model ones if your set on the totems..
87db

then if they don't sound as good [loud and dynamic,engaging] you can sell your amp on ebay,audiogon or canuckaudiomart and upgrade to a used one.

I think maybe they'll sound decent but you may run the amp hot to get loud.
50 watts may work if room is small ,


tubes for sure.
Rudi lets us know how it turn out.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3769
Registered: May-05
The 150x's 50 watts go a very long way. The Model 1s are inefficient, but they should work fine in a 12x15 room with the 150x. Only way to find out for sure is an in-home demo.
 

Silver Member
Username: Vm8444

Post Number: 128
Registered: Aug-05
amen Stu
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 6
Registered: Mar-10
Thanks guys ... to the dealer it is. I'll go for the home audition and let you know the results. Look already forward to it!
 

New member
Username: Asjemenou

Post Number: 7
Registered: Mar-10
I'm back from the dealer

Who said life is easy ... So we have two upgrade path options on the table, an again your advice is welcome:

1. If I go for a speaker upgrade I would pick the Sonus Faber Cremona auditor M. Perfect match with my gear and it sounded so so so good ...

2. The other options was trading my CD5x for a CD5XS and the naim DAC. Advantage was that i can connect a Sonos to it and stream some audio too.

Money is the same for both and in the future I'll going to by the both ... (i think). Question is what would you advice me to go for first ... The SF or the DAC ?????

Advice is (again) more than welcome ...
 

Platinum Member
Username: Artk

Albany, Oregon USA

Post Number: 12576
Registered: Feb-05
Speakers...because they sounded so so so good. Sonus Faber has been very big in the Naim crowd of late and for good reason.
 

Gold Member
Username: Stu_pitt

Irvington, New York USA

Post Number: 3801
Registered: May-05
I agree with Art. Speakers first in your case.

If you'll buy the Naim DAC, why upgrade to the CD5XS? Not sure you'll gain much if anything from that, unless of course the CD5x doesn't have a digital output.

If the CD5x doesn't have a digital out, I'd go the Sonos route, or even the iPod route. The DAC will take the digital signal from the iPod, bypassing its internal DAC and amp.
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