Which speaker cables known brand name or other?
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 1 Registered: Mar-10 | Hi there i am new to ecoustics. I was looking for a thread which discussed speaker cables but haven't worked out how to find one that is a current discussion as there are so many old threads that come up in the search. My question is weather to go for a top brand speaker cable, i have been looking at used cables such as cable talk, qed and van den hull however nothing was as cheap and as fat as this OFC 6mm 762 Strand cable i found on ebay item 270370467142 ok so it's not silver plated but it's huge so it must have a very high current carrying capacity. Some of my speakers are bi wired so i was considering using some of the qed silver plated cable to drive the top end and running the fat ebay stuff to the mid bass. Does anybody have any opinions on this? Thanks. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14716 Registered: Dec-04 | Yes, I have an opinion, but that will be reserved until we find out what 500W amp you have, and 79db efficient speaks that require such a large conductor. Welcome to the forum, James. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14618 Registered: May-04 | . You have to think of cables as another component within your system. They are not bumperstickers you select simply because you like their look. "Fat" and "silver plated" are mere buzzwords of the industry that will pass just as most other buzzwords have left the building. Without understanding the thinking behind those words you are doing yourself, your system and your music a disservice. I know this advice virtually always falls on deaf ears once someone has decide to buy something but stop looking at buzzwords and consider what might actually benefit your music. Fat means nothing IMO as it has become just another piece of the audiophile jewelry used to dress a less than sophisticated system in "store bought duds". High sustained current is not necessary in most systems and therefore high strand count cabling is not only wasted but can be deleterious to the sound quality. Do you know how much current your speakers require? Do you know how much current your amplifier can sustain over a period of demand? Current is typically a quantity that is in demand within a specific frequency band where the speaker's impedance and/or phase angle are out of whack with conservative design. That means current is not a constant as it is in supplying AC to your home's service panel. It ebbs and flows and buying cabling that looks like it can deliver high current is not only foolish but possibly incorrect. How do you know how much cabling is actually beneath that "fat" dielectric? How do you know thin cables wouldn't perform with more musical value in your system? Fat cables feeding a high frequency driver seldom offer the best sound quality. This isn't a car stereo where you get graded on the ooohs and ahhs from the guys in the parking lot. Silver plating is much the same when you are merely buying words. Silver anything cannot save a crappy design. Stop buying ad copy and do some serious research into how cables affect your system - your system not some nebulous system that you've read about in the marketing of these cables. Not why these cables are the perfect addition to that high end system we've all seen dressed out in "fat" silver plated cables. My buzzword on this forum has been "THINK". At least consider it. . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14718 Registered: Dec-04 | carefully selected 28 and 20G wire has carried 300wpc amps in the past. I like the 12G home depot roll stock (for sub amps). |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 2 Registered: Mar-10 | Hi Guys thanks for your replies. Well the point of these posts is to learn and research, i have a tone of hifi gear and professional Pa equipment so i do know a few things but i have become more and more interested in hifi speaker cable recently. I am currently listening to some dmt tannoy nfm 8's and have recently bi wired them from a used cambridge A300, the sound is very pleasant and i like the way i get a good low but clear bass at all volumes, very impressive for such small speakers. I've never really spent too much money on speaker cables but now i'm interested to do my best to make sure i'm getting the best sound i can from the rest of the equipment. I'm keen to know if anyone actually had a look on ebay at the cable i mentioned, i know that fat is not always necessary but this looks like a cable that can carry plenty of information, i would imagine that running two lengths of it to bi wire the tannoys wouldn't be such a bad thing. But i was seriously considering a more expensive cable just to feed the tops, i was wondering if these expensive hi fi cables could really carry more detail than the 6mm 762 strand cable. Many people need to make their decisions through practicality eg. can they hide the cable or will it fit into their amp/speakers. Well i'm just trying to make sure i am getting the best sound i can afford, interconnection isn't a problem for me as i'm a dab hand when it comes to soldering and heatshrink. I have already bought some cable talk 3.1 flat biwire and some qed profile, i will be purchasing more cable and trying them out, i may buy some of the 762 strand and give it a go. I will keep my favorite cables and use the other cables on second systems or give it to family and friends. There is a list of some of my audio equipment on my profile nothing worth thousands but some fairly nice gear all the same. Thanks again. James |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1175 Registered: Feb-08 | Greetings James, http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfNorthWest, MI USA Post Number: 12447 Registered: Dec-03 | as an E.E., I can tell you that any wire capable of carrying the current is fine, and there will be no audible difference between a $200 pair of cables, and a $20 pair. The rest of what you'll hear about silver vs OFC, etc is just hype and sales voodoo. The truth is that the important factor is just selecting a good multi-strand OFC cable/wire, and having good connections/solder points. The connectors are where the difference is usually made, since this has the greatest effect on how the signal is transferred. Personally I just go to knukonceptz.com, buy their speaker cable, and their banana plugs, and build my own cables. They end up costing me about $30, and perform as well as any others I've heard. For reference, those are being used on an Onkyo TX-NR5007, and a Krell KSA-250 driving a pair of Raymond Cook special edition KEF reference 104/2s and a pair of Martin Logan Vantage ESL mains. The fact that the audio signal is sent as an AC voltage means you're not going to build a lot of heat like you would with DC. Also in high frequency AC you start getting into things like skin effect, so the number of strands helps with the electron flow, but aside from that, cable is, as the above article notes, cable. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3052 Registered: Nov-05 | Uh Oh! |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12452 Registered: Dec-03 | uh oh? All I did was essentially reiterate what was already said. I just can't justify spending $1500 for a pair of speaker cables, even if my speakers were $5,600/pair, and the amplifier was $8K. I'm of a similar mind about interconnects, too. I'll buy decent interconnects because they have superior connectors and soldering, but not because they advertise some magical kind of wire that makes the system sound better. I just want the signal to be as transparent as possible from source to ear. If you hear any difference between two different wires, then something is seriously wrong, be it an inability to carry the signal causing the signal to clip, or the wire adding coloration to the signal. Neither one is good. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3053 Registered: Nov-05 | The Uh Oh was an exclaimation citing a "here we go again." This cable argument has been tossed around this forum and others for eons. Many people will agree with you and many will disagree until it degenerates into a mudslinging match without any resolve other than there are two differing camps on this subject. BTW - I must have something seriously wrong  |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1183 Registered: Feb-08 | Must be the reverse polarity you have down under!!!  |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3054 Registered: Nov-05 | Very good JB. Lol! That and the fact that we listen upside down. |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 3 Registered: Mar-10 | Perhaps i'll just go for the low price phat cable bumper sticker look then, may as well. Wish you were here, i'll be playing on a 3k system of mine later today (once i've slept for a few hours) at an altitude of 1900M in the snow. Snow has a great deadening effect especially when coupled with a natural amphitheater of ski piste and trees Add 2-300 people for atmosphere and some big bass bins and it's going to be a grand day with a St. Patrick's day after-party where i'll also be playing in one of the local Bars. A mish mash of amplifiers speakers and cables, but on this particular occasion it doesn't really matter. Have fun everybody, thanks for the input. James |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14631 Registered: May-04 | . Thank you for not taking any of it. Had any part been missing, I, for one, would have been agog. St. Patrick's Day in France?!!!! Is he going to be using these cables outdoors in the snow? He should have mentioned that in his op. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3056 Registered: Nov-05 | This cable argument has been tossed around this forum and others for eons. Many people will agree with you and many will disagree until it degenerates into a mudslinging match without any resolve other than there are two differing camps on this subject. For example: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/786-audiovideo-cables-science- and-insanity.html?start=2 |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14737 Registered: Dec-04 | Or for example, when «gw says all cabling is the same if securely soldered. Bare wire speaker runs are pretty straightwforward, so just use ripcord or coathanger wire. Or silver 28g wire. Its all the same, right? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14636 Registered: May-04 | . Rantz, no one is arguing with anyone - on this forum. What're ya trying to start? Why bring in some discussion from another forum just to try to stir things up? Geeez, guy, give it a rest, huh? I don't agree that all cables will "sound" alike if they measure alike. That train left the station fully loaded with a head of steam decades ago as far as I'm concerned. But I'm not going to start a fight as long as the other guy is reasonable enough to allow that I can have my opinion too. And I'm sure-as-hell not going to argue with someone unreasonable enough to have ignored the last thirty years of cable design. So don't stir up trouble where it doesn't exist. Quite honestly, there's no one on this forum with the technical know how to adequately debate the topic other than to claim they hear differences and that's all the proof they need. The ol' "my ears are the best test instruments I know of" line. If that's your best - and only - defense, you've already lost the argument before you've even started and you're just going to sound like a babblin'fool repeating it over and over until someone finally gives up and this ends poorly. Take the man at his word, read the charts and move on - there's nothing to see here. BTW - You do have something seriously wrong. . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3057 Registered: Nov-05 | I was emphasising my previous point. Pi$$ off Vigne! Your lack of reading skills is woeful. Always reading something into someone's comments without thinking. F off once and for all, we all know you are the one with something seriously wrong  |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12482 Registered: Dec-03 | read the section titled "Gordon Gow's Speaker Wire Listening Test" here: http://www.roger-russell.com/wire/wire.htm as long as the wire is of proper gauge to carry the signal, then yes, silver, copper, etc.. it's not going to sound differently to your ears. If it does, then it's adding coloration to the source signal, and that, again, is bad. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14638 Registered: May-04 | . "But I'm not going to start a fight as long as the other guy is reasonable enough to allow that I can have my opinion too. And I'm sure-as-hell not going to argue with someone unreasonable enough to have ignored the last thirty years of cable design." We can repeat ourself several times if you like but the answers are likely to be the same at the end as they are right now. If you are capable of ignoring 30 years of cable design, then you can - and will - ignore any argument I would make to dissaude you. . |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12363 Registered: Feb-05 | Not Roger Russell again, please no. The probability that the man was deaf will never have any impact on my listening or cable buying decisions. Having worked with a load of EE's at Hewlett-Packard I'd have to say there are few groups less qualified to talk about sound. Not due to a lack of understanding but because they generally don't trust their ears or never put those ears to the test by actually listening. Every piece of the audio puzzle adds flavor..or coloration. It's simply a matter of choosing the flavor you want...and that includes cables. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1185 Registered: Feb-08 | Well everything seems reasonable so far!!! As an engineer who strives to be different I am going to continue to state as fact that if the total cost of a system is less than $1000.00 then the difference for SPEAKER CABLE between rip cord (with adequate gauge) and ANYTHING ELSE will not be worth the cost. Interconnects are more important but not to the extent that the poor consumers are getting fleeced for. Retail stores make their money on these cables and I would think it would be our job to keep a sane posture on this issue to actually HELP PEOPLE My cost priority or bang for your buck (more or less): 1. Input (junk in... generally taken care of these days but a lousy cartridge on a turntable would be an example. Really poor interconnects would be another. No matter what you do afterward you will be amplifying junk). 2. Output (speakers, the finest of all the rest of the gear cannot make cheap, poorly built, poorly placed, Bo$e speakers sound good) 3. Decent Interconnects (Effects to LINE LEVEL signals can be significant and is generally the cause of most of cabling arguments. It is more important than speaker level cabling). 4. Amplification 5. Switching (again dealing with line level signals) 6. Great interconnects 7. Great Speaker cabling See the point? > $1000.00 spend money on speakers!!! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12364 Registered: Feb-05 | But if the total cost of the system is $1001 everything changes.... |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1187 Registered: Feb-08 | Yeah Art, that might be a good time to looking into $50.00 speaker cable to replace the $5.00 speaker cable used up until that point. Glad you caught on! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12365 Registered: Feb-05 | Thanks for the primer... My wife's system costs far less than 1k. Mostly bought used and the sound changes markedly with different cables and she definitely has preferences. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12366 Registered: Feb-05 | I say buy what you want and if the music moves you, then so be it. I like the sound of the cables I use. However if someone likes the sound of whatever came in the box, hey more power to them. Cables have a sound, many sound different from one another. More money spent does not guarantee a better result and different isn't always better. Other than that...enjoy the music whether with 10K snakes or 10 cent a foot cable. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1450 Registered: Nov-06 | Have to agree art, I can hear a marked difference between the anti-cables, my canare cables, and my audioquest that I now use. The canare were pro cables... somewhat hard sounding in comparison to what I am using now IMHO The anti-cables were very open and got out of the way (liked that). I couldn't use them once I stopped using them because they do NOT lay flat what so EVER, and that they frequently came out of my gear due to the termination. I was going to solder better bananas on them, but went to audioquest instead. The audioquest cables are also fabulously open and smooth, and have a slightly more detailed presentation to them. In other words... If you listen, you can hear the difference |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1188 Registered: Feb-08 | MMM, we would have to assume that you all have more than $1000.00 into your gear right? As stated, if so, then yeah I agree and the law of diminishing returns comes screaming into the picture. Solder and banana plugs are a whole new discussion! If you can hear the difference between two different good speaker cables but you can't hear the difference between the same speaker cable with soldered banana plugs as opposed to using bare wire then you are spinning this whole issue so badly that it looks like a US congressional meeting. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1451 Registered: Nov-06 | never stated I couldn't hear the difference between bare wire and solder/bananas :-) and yes, my CD player alone was that much...not that it matters. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1452 Registered: Nov-06 | I tried them bare as well, and the difference was subtle. I AB-ed them bare against my audioquest, and the aq was clearly better. The aq was more detailed, and had the edge in transparency. But there are plenty of people that state that cables are a moot point... so I am playing devil's advocate here |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1189 Registered: Feb-08 | Maybe I could clear up my position by simply stating that if anyone has more than 10% of the total cost of their entire system in speaker cable then they are as upside down as a modern mortgage!!! |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 873 Registered: Jul-07 | Generalizations are just that. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12494 Registered: Dec-03 | next you're going to say you can hear the difference between different types of DACs in a CD player.. LOL It's amazing what your mind will tell you that you can or can't hear, depending on how much money left your wallet. The sad part is that even with the best system in the world, we're still stuck with a lot of really crappy source media. Most big companies just don't put the time and money into decent sound engineers to make a good master for the production of a CD you buy in the store so we're right back to garbage in and garbage out. I wish MFSL was still making the CDs they made in the 80s. I also think that unless you're using a pretty good amplifier (read: Krell, Pass, Passe, Sunfire, etc..) and some pretty fantastic speakers, all of this talk of cables is pretty moot anyway. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14645 Registered: May-04 | . Way to go, Rantz! You just couldn't leave well enough alone, could you? . |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3753 Registered: May-05 | Everyone hears what they hear, regardless of what everyone else hears. Its stupid and pointless to tell someone what they do and do not hear. If I heard differences in cables, I wouldn't think I was better than everyone else. If I didn't hear differences in cables, I wouldn't run around calling everyone else and idiot for supposedly hearing something I didn't. Not that the conversation hasn't been civil by any means. Its actually probably the most civil cable discussion I've seen. Still way too many of them IMO though. Live and let live. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14648 Registered: May-04 | . "It's amazing what your mind will tell you that you can or can't hear, depending on how much money left your wallet." "as long as the wire is of proper gauge to carry the signal, then yes, silver, copper, etc.. it's not going to sound differently to your ears." Glasswolf, I then would have to assume you believe - provided the length of the cable were adjusted to compensate for total resistance (since guage is the only parameter you mention) - that hypothetical cables with conductors made of lead, or tin, or cheap oxidized copper as in old fashioned zip cord or high quality OFC copper would be indistinguishable in their individual "sound" within a high quality system. Given the same DC resistance in the cable, lead or tin will provide the same results as OFC copper or silver? Yes? If so, why not have more money left in your wallet and use the cheaper lead or tin conductor? . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1190 Registered: Feb-08 | For one thing, though you didn't ask me, durability! If all of this was so critical all conductors would be made of solid Gold. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14649 Registered: May-04 | . Copper is a better conductor than gold. You knew that, right? Tell me you did and you were just making a lame joke. How about, "If all of this were so cricitcal, conductors would be made of the finest conductor material available." Oh, wait, they are, pure silver.  What you're trying to tell me is we settled on copper because tin and lead aren't as "durable" as copper? That's why we settled on copper?! That's the best reason you can come up with?!!! Puhleeeeeeeease! You've obviously never been in a 1970's Fox and Jacobs built house. They used tin and aluminum wiring for everything because it left lots of money in their bank account and the meter still read 120VAC at the outlet. It passed code for that time. Now, since at this time we are merely discussing a speaker cable with sufficient guage "to carry the signal", can we return to the "sound" of lead conductors? Glasswolf, given the choice, you'd pick lead and save yourself a bundle? . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3059 Registered: Nov-05 | You just couldn't leave well enough alone, could you? Certainly seems you can't Vigne! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14650 Registered: May-04 | . Don't start, jerkwad! You could have gone on your merry way but, no! you had to start something. What I'm doing has nothing to do with you starting this. So, as you say, PISSOFF! F'OFF once and for all, you POS! . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3060 Registered: Nov-05 | Mother Superior strikes again. Just can't help infect every thread can you? Like I said before you played copycat: F*** Off you fool Vigne! |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14653 Registered: May-04 | . Nice contribution to the discussion, prickhead. This is why you should have left it alone. Look you're simply too f'ing stupid to be involved in this. So go check the feet on any of your CD players to find out which one sounds the best. OK? And leave us adults alone. . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12502 Registered: Dec-03 | for one, even trying to read these posts with 12 carriage returns between every line gives me a migraine, so I get through two lines, and skip the entire post. congrats Vigne. You found one of the few things that can get me to completely ignore you. That aside, this "use lead wire instead" crap is just getting silly. Try to at least discuss something rationally instead of skipping to unrealistic extremes in an attempt to prove your case. It just makes you sound like a crackpot. Nothing you say could convince me that a speaker cable is worth ten thousand dollars. Nothing. In a double blind test, I am stone cold sure you'd not be able to tell a set of cables I built myself from a set you bought in a store. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3061 Registered: Nov-05 | You call yourself an adult Ms Vigne? You are nothing but a bug infecting this forum. Just F*** the hell off you freak! Glasswolf, I don't agree that all cables sound the same (in fact cables have no sound) but I doubt anyone here, even if they could afford it, would spend that sort of money on cables or interconnects. I agree some of the prices being bandied around are absurd (just like Vigne). |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14654 Registered: May-04 | . See?! there you go pulling the same old crap that every cable sceptic tries to yank out of their @ss when they get caught flat footed in their own failed logic. You plainly stated that guage was the only thing that mattered in adequately carrying a signal. I quoted you and it's there for everyone to go back and check. You said it. Now you don't want to stand behind it. In your twisted little world of EE paper trails the idea of a lead conductor is crap because it clearly disproves your logic. Flat out disproves it! No one would even begin to think of using a lead conductor but you said it didn't matter ... ""as long as the wire is of proper gauge to carry the signal, then yes, silver, copper, etc.. it's not going to sound differently to your ears."" So you call it crap and ignore it. You should be more careful with your "etc" usage. And I even gave you the option of two other conductor types but you, of course, have to go to the most extreme to suggest I am being ridiculous. Then what do you do?! You resort to the famous $10,000 non-existent cable that we all know just can't sound any different than your twenty cents a foot zip cord! There is no $10,000 cable, you fool! You know that and we all know that. You make up some ridiculous BS and expect me to swallow it. That $10,000 cable only exists in the mind of wild eyed cable sceptics who want to pull some piece of crap argument out of their butt in order to say just how silly anyone is who uses more than twenty cent a foot zip cord. You immediately exagerate the cost of a non-existent cable to make some sillyassed attempt to make anyone who uses more than zip cord look like a fool for spending $10,000. Pretty pathetic but utterly predictable Earth to Glassswolf! We've been discussing $50 cables in case you haven't noticed. So just who's being ridiculous here? And why does it matter what the cost of the cable is when you state all that matters is the guage? You wanted to save some cash and lead is cheaper than copper. What's your problem with that? C'mon, fella, give me a break! So, while I quote you exactly and ask for a simple clarification of your exact wording - which you refuse to provide - you get to construct some fantasy that doesn't exist and therefore cannot prove anything but you hope it proves everything and ends all discussion. No such luck. Congratulations on being played for the fool, Glasswolf. You loose because you won't answer the question that disproves your main point of belief in this matter. And you make up wildly ridiculous BS while telling me you will ignore me because you don't like the question I asked. I would have thought you might have been better at this game, fella. I'm disappointed. You don't appear to be any smarter than Rantz and he's a dumbass plain and simple. . |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3732 Registered: Feb-07 | The Cable category in some other forums are moderated. Can't for the life of me figure out why. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3733 Registered: Feb-07 | I've actually heard the difference between cables in my system, and it's not always the most expensive ones that have sounded the best. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12371 Registered: Feb-05 | LOL! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3062 Registered: Nov-05 | He's damn well smarter than you Vigne. You're just a freakshow. You reading skills are that of a kindergartner. You simply have no understanding yet you claim all this superior knowledge. You must be an idiot savant! I warned about this topic with this: This cable argument has been tossed around this forum and others for eons. Many people will agree with you and many will disagree until it degenerates into a mudslinging match without any resolve other than there are two differing camps on this subject. For example: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/technical-articles/786-audiovideo-cables-science- and-insanity.html?start=2 But you just claimed I was starting something you fool. The link was to show that arguing this topic never accomplishes anything positive and results in mudslinging know-it-alls. Enter into evidence exhibit A: one Jan Vigne I rest my case. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 559 Registered: Dec-06 | In response to Jim's post...personally, my order of priority is different. A lot of people say, "junk in, junk out". But really, how much "junk" is out there? When we get into entry level players from the likes of NAD and Marantz, can we really call this "junk"? For the most part these are good components. Now of course a Rega Saturn is much nicer than an entry level Marantz, and maybe the Marantz is junk by comparison, but I don't think there are many people pairing that entry level player with components costing 10x more. The Marantz is perfectly suited for an entry level system. I tend to think speakers first, because the variability in sound from one to another is more than any other component. If you don't like the voicing of a certain speaker then you won't like the system no matter what you use further up the line. What you use further up the line will not alter the sound as drastically as another speaker would. If you find a speaker that really connects with you it's a great component to build around. I've heard relatively high end speakers with much lesser components and they sounded fantastic. PMC TB2i with an Audiolab 8000S power amp and a little Denon minisystem as preamp and CD player. And I've had systems that were more balanced in terms of the cost of each component, with the cheapest part being higher end than the Denon, and those systems did little for me. So at the end of the day it's about having the right pieces that form a great system. Not just a good source or good speakers. All parts need to work well together. Whether some are entry level or not doesn't matter, because as long as the components work well together the system can still sound good. |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 4 Registered: Mar-10 | Pure comedy I like this Forum already. If i get some time i have some of the fattest ofc i have ever seen downstairs, i found a huge roll in a second hand shop in Switzerland a few years back, i was going to turn it into heavy-duty jumper cables for the car, perhaps i'll put it to the test against some good average cable and try to see the differences at different volumes. Can you post pictures on here? you guys would laugh if you saw this stuff  |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3736 Registered: Feb-07 | lol James. Welcome aboard. Way to start a first thread! There's a small link beside the "Preview/Post Message" button. You can upload them there. They have to be pretty small (600x400 px, I think?). Let's seem some pics. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1191 Registered: Feb-08 | Personally I actually learn stuff doing this so why get so emotional??? THAT'S what doesn't solve anything. So, like the pigheaded fool that I am I dive right back in with: The argument some might have for gold as the ideal conductor (admittedly using the word conductor improperly, how about as speaker wire) would be made because of corrosion resistance which would be silver's biggest drawback. Gold would then give a known value forever while silver would change rapidly and copper somewhat more slowly. Copper being acceptable for most thus its widespread use. All of this is also part of the argument for gold plated connectors. Lead and tin has durability issues because it will too easily break when you handle it. Wouldn't that be the reason they no longer use that in home wiring (more specifically aluminum wire but perhaps you can see what I mean). They sure as hell would if they could. BTW - Take a wild guess as to what happens when you solder your connectors. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3063 Registered: Nov-05 | Make sure you don't bust the lugs James. Yes, you can post pictures - look beside the Preview/Post Message button below. "Pure comedy" - it's a shame it isn't James. Oops - sorry Dave. Bad timing! |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12504 Registered: Dec-03 | Just to clear a few things up: AudioQuest actually did at least at one time, sell a pair of matched audio speaker cables for $8,900 US for 6' and $1,300 per additional foot. By the time you add tax to that, you'll be about as close to $10,000 as need be to prove my point. They do actually exist, and are probably sold to people who own $20,000+ speakers like for example, the MartinLogan Statement E2. I did also note that several things can affect speaker cables, like gauge, connectors, number of strands, and so forth, but the fact still remains that, and this is my big issue, if the cables themselves affect the sound in any way, they are coloring the source material, and that's the same reason I'm not a big tube amp fan. I like my music to be an accurate reproduction of a well engineered source (read: MFSL CDs for example) I'd rather not color the sound with equalizers, signal processors, and voodoo magic wiring if I don't need to do so. Even correcting for room acoustics with a lot of devices adds coloration through things like phase shift induced by the crossovers and capacitors used in them. If it makes you happy I will admit that cables can alter the sound of speakers, however, my caveat to that is by doing so, they are coloring the source signal, and it's never a good thing. Cables should be transparent. I guess I'm just old and stuck in my mindset about that.  PS, Vigne, this link here, it's just for you http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between-monster-cable-and/ I thought you might find it a good read. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14656 Registered: May-04 | . "Gold would then give a known value forever while silver would change rapidly and copper somewhat more slowly." Unlike oxidized copper, silver oxizide is not considered detrimental to sound quality or to the resistance of the conductor. Besides, have you never heard of dielectric and gas tight connections? Let's not get ourself out on too many imaginary limbs before we find someone cutting them off behind ourself. If you can't buy a cable with a quality dielectric, you shouldn't be buying cables from that vendor. If you can't make a gas tight connection, allow someone who can to do the job for you. If you don't have a clue what a dielectric is or what a gas tight connection means, learn something before you blow a wad of money. Gold on an audio connector is BS since it is nothing more than a thin plating of low quality gold alloy - alloy, not pure gold and therefore even worse for signal quality - over a brass and nickel connector body. If you don't like the question of whether you would listen to lead cables, how about a nice set of brass cables? How do you suppose they would sound? Thinking about upgrading to some shiny new nickel plated cables? Can we please keep the discussion in the real world? I'll repeat this one more time for the slow learners amongst you all. The statement made was, "as long as the wire is of proper gauge to carry the signal, then yes, silver, copper, etc.. it's not going to sound differently to your ears." I'm here to say that is a completely false statement. If you can't say you would prefer to use brass cables over OFC copper, then you must agree that is a completely bogus claim and Glasswolf is wrong. Very simple stuff. Durability is not the issue here, so drop the durability argument. Either guage is all that matters - and therefore total DC resistance - or it is not all that matters. That guage is everything is Glasswolf's take away from the Roger Russell site. Irregardless of the conductor material, is guage all that matters? No! it is not. Simple, huh? Would you like to listen to a system wired with tin cables? Would you like to listen to a system wired with brass cables? Would you like to listen to a system wired with nickel plated cables? Would you prefer to listen to a system wired with oxidized copper cables? If you say you wouldn't prefer to listen to a cable with any of those conductor materials, then guage is not the only thing that matters and Glasswolf is wrong. If he is so wrong about something so elementary to electronics, then what else is he wrong about? And, don't patronize people, I know how much lead and tin content is in solder. You're making the argument that solder is bad, therefore, I can only conclude you also think lead or tin conductors would be bad for sound quality. So do I. We agree. Now we simply need to agree that guage is not the only consideration in cables and we'll be moving forward. It is not a ridiculous statement to ask about tin or brass or aluminum conductors, yet it is a ridiculous statement to say only guage is a consideration in signal carrying capacity. It is ridiculous to ignore all other parameters of cable design. Not only does the statement ignore basic electronics it also ignores decades of cable design and advancement since Glasswolf last thought about anything new. Guage is not the only consideration, in fact, it is barely a consideration in the vast majority of home audio systems for main speaker wiring and lower guage could actually be harmful to the sound quality. If you want money left in your wallet, don't buy lower guage cables than is required for your system runs. That's common sense. If your system doesn't supply the constant current capacity of a 10 AWG cable, don't spend the money for needless amounts of cabling. Buying fat cables with gold plated brass connectors just because they are fat and gold is as dumb as only considering guage. And keep the tin and lead out of my wiring. Pretty simple stuff when you think about it. . . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14657 Registered: May-04 | . Just to clear a few things up ... JeezLouise, Glasswolf, you are so f'ing literal it is beyond belief. Yes, there are $10k cables. I never said there weren't. I said there are no $10k cables that you are actually discussing. You pulled an enormous number out of your butt just as all cable sceptics do - it's always $10 or 15k or even higher - just to be ridiculous. Just to say, "You audiophools believe in $10k cables. HaHa!!!" Those are the cables that don't exist, you fool! They are made up in your head. You have no experience with those cables because they don't exist. But you prefer to criticize something you have never even seen let alone experienced in a system. That is the pure BS of the same ol' type of BS every cable idiot pulls out of their butt first and then they get to tube amplifiers soon after. Next you'll be telling us about how CD's are better than vinyl. The issue is not whether $10k cables alter the sound of some system somewhere that no one has ever heard but whether a real world cable changes the sound of the system we are using at all. Whether the cable is $10k or $10, if there is a distinct audible improvement to be had with a cable, cables affect the sound quality. And it is not just guage that does the affecting. That means you are now backtracking - or CYA'ing - it because you are obviously not correct in your earlier statement of "fact". But, goodlord! I knew it wouldn't take long until you got around to tubes. You look at numbers and you decide what is good audio and what is bad audio. You don't listen you just look at pieces of paper and read your propoganda and make unilateral decisions. Maybe you've heard a few tube amplifiers and you didn't care for the sound. Fine, did you ever stop to consider why you might not like the sound? No! you just decided tubes are bad audio. Couldn't be the speakers aren't a good match for a tube amplifier, could it? No, it's just tubes are bad audio. Period! Couldn't be the pre amp can't drive sufficient current into the tube amp's front end, could it? No, it's just tubes are bad audio. You fool! Have you had any real experience with those AudioQuest cables that cost almost $10k? No? Then why bring them up? 'Cause you had to CYA? You don't think, you just declare what is good audio and what is bad audio for everyone. What an arrogant SOB! Same with tubes, you look at a piece of paper and you decide tubes are bad because they "color" the sound. Period. Nothing more is considered. And then you get on a forum and tell everyone who uses tubes they are not hearing accurate sound. No reason, you just say tubes are bad. Like you know "good". You don't even know about cable guage! Well, here's a flash for you, I'm more inertested in transparent sound than I am in "accurate" sound. I can point to dozens of "accurate" pieces of audio that sound like pounded dog crap. Give me something that doesn't sound like it's being reproduced by an audio system and I'm in. So, tell me, oh great double E, what's the measurement for "transparent"? And don't start with the "tubes are colored" BS. And don't go off with the, "If it alters the sound, it is adding coloration." Cable capacitance colors the sound. Cable inductance colors the sound. Lousy gold plated connectors color the sound. Dielectric absorption colors the sound. Static electric fields surrounding the cable will alter the sound. Christ! even cable dressing colors the sound! Everything colors the sound!!! So, for godssake, don't give me the old line of BS about you know coloration when you don't even mention any of the stuff that really colors the sound. You are just spouting the same line of BS about tubes and cables that has polluted the forums for the last three decades. At least be original about it! At least think! Think up something new instead of the same old crap all over again! You really aren't very good at this, Glasswolf. The only thing you have right so far is, "I guess I'm just old and stuck in my mindset about that." You can make the decision to get unstuck from that decades old mindset but you have to want to do it, guy. You can not just spout the company line about cables and tubes but you have to want to think for a change. I doubt there's much hope for you though when you have the utter stupidity to post, "Even correcting for room acoustics with a lot of devices adds coloration through things like phase shift induced by the crossovers and capacitors used in them." No, no, fella, room treatment devices do not "add" coloration. And they certainly do not add coloration "through things like phase shift induced by the crossovers and capacitors used in them."  And not many of the folks on this forum use eq's and multiple crossovers to correct for room acoustics. You really should move into the 21st century, fella. And you really should know your audience before you start telling them what's wrong with their stuff. I truly believe even the slowest of the bunch on this forum - yeah, I'm talking about you, Rantz - can figure out what's wrong with that statement about room acoustics. How many things are you going to be wrong about in this one thread, Glasswolf? And, finally, you post propganda from someone no smarter than you are. But they are just as arrogant! No wonder you stopped thinking long ago and now just get your information force fed to you by ninconpoops like this. Why bother to think and stay up on the last fifty years of audio design when you have such wonderful sources of information to draw on? No thanks, I prefer to read about stuff that's true. If you'd like, however, I can come up with a few dozen links that completely dispute the BS in that article. Mine will just do it without calling anyone names or insulting their intelligence. If all you can do now is insult tube users and say idiotic things like, "Even correcting for room acoustics with a lot of devices adds coloration through things like phase shift induced by the crossovers and capacitors used in them.", please, go back where you came from. Car audio wasn't it? . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14658 Registered: May-04 | . And, please, oh, please, oh, please, do not start jabbering about DBT's and ABX's. It's where you bullshitters always go and start spouting off after the cables and the tubes and the vinyl have been insulted and it is the ultimate BS. You've already posted more than enough about DBT's, thank you very much! So, just don't. Just don't go there. Most audio forums don't even allow discussions of DBT's and ABX's because they are the ultimate BS thread stoppers. So forget them on this forum. Don't go there. Just don't! . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3065 Registered: Nov-05 | Goddamn, you're one real crazy mother. Go on keep babbling away - and wipe the drool from your mouth psycho! |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1192 Registered: Feb-08 | WOW! No wonder these things get so out of hand! What is it that is so personal to you Jan? |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1193 Registered: Feb-08 | Here is an example of my concern, this was written early this morning and I am sure most of you saw it: Need help planning out my soon to be finished basement. It's rectangular 11' x 19' with 7' ceilings. I'm planning on a Samsung Plasma, either 50" or 58". direct viewing distance will be about 10-11' (far wall). I'm using the tv for movies and xbox/ps3. Does anyone think the 58" will be too big? Also, what's the best options for the HT audio? I'm thinking 16g will be good for speaker wire. I wanted to buy an RF remote, but the PS3 wont work because its bluetooth...so unless someone has an answer I'm guessing the equipment won't be behind walls. Thanks!!!! Part of the answer: 16 g would be aright if you use a decent wire company like audioquest 16/2 Good advice or not? |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1194 Registered: Feb-08 | Oh yeah, and what about surround speaker wire? Longer runs but less precise sound make it acceptable to use less expensive cable? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14660 Registered: May-04 | . "What is it that is so personal to you Jan?" I take personal offense when I post a desire to keep civility in this thread and it is ignored and even insulted by the likes of Rantz and Glasswolf. This did not have to turn into anything other than advice to the op to not buy cables merely because they were "phat" or silver plated. Rantz had to push the issue for no good reason other than his own childish pettiness and Glasswolf had to look at my comments saying I hoped everyone would have the courtesy to allow the other listener their private opinions and then he decided to spit on that. I provided several opportunites for Glasswolf to just sit pat and allow this to pass but he decided he just had to flaunt his EE credentials - which means nothing more than he stopped thinking in his sophomore year of HS and went to swallowing whatever was fed to him - and began posting BS like ... "LOL It's amazing what your mind will tell you that you can or can't hear, depending on how much money left your wallet." "congrats Vigne. You found one of the few things that can get me to completely ignore you." Like I'm supposed to bow down to some who can't even get cable guage straight. Don't insult me when you are the one who has placed their head up theur posterior and can't see the sunshine of how incorrect they really are. If you do insult me in such a manner, it will get personal! None of this needed to happen but, if it's going to happen, I will say what I believe needs to be said. What needs to be said is stop pushing the same old line of BS that has been copy/pasted by the bullshitters on both sides for the last three decades. That we are on this forum and to the point where arguments over cables still exist after three decades of cable design and audio advancement and there are still the numbskulls who think only guage is a matter of concern in cables is astounding and insulting. Just as astounding as the, "My ears are the only testing devices I need", comments are from the other side. I do not take responsibility for what someone else cannot hear. I find it very personally insulting when someone tells me what I should be hearing then, as is always the case, proceeds to tell me what hifi equipment I should and should not be listening to. And, of course, if I dont listen to what they like, then I like "coloration" as if they aren't listening to colored sound when they can't figure their way beyond cable guage. I find it even more insulting that the best most of the pro-cable side can manage is nothing more than "I trust my ears". Learn why it might be that your ears are telling you something and don't be so arrogant as to think what you hear is what is corrrect when you have no idea what correct is. If you are in the anti-cable camp, stop being a boiler plate partisan and read something other than the BS Glaswolf linked to. Everybody - THINK! for a change! And I find it absloutely infantile that someone would wish to start this on this forum. This did not need to happen and wouldn't have if Rantz had kept his stupid mouth shut. But since he has no intellectual capacity to engage anyone in a discussion of anything audio, his best efforts are to simply sling mud at me from the sidelines where his lolipop is stuck in his hair. What a guy! . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1199 Registered: Feb-08 | This will sound condescending as hell but I can't think of any other way to approach this so rather than staying on task... In "reading between the lines" I think there is a lot of common ground here but an "expert" or a "professional" on very solid footing couldn't possibly be so easily rattled. If it is thought that someone else is infantile because of emotional name calling and it is done right back what do you suppose that means? The debate is not won by calling the opposition more and nastier names. The biggest obstacle to resolving this dispute, or any for that matter would be negative emotions and especially the name calling. The minute you resort to that you have lost the argument and all credibility. Stick to the facts and a conclusion is possible. So waddya think? Would this work for the US senate too? Or would they be throwing a volley of stones at me like I suspect will happen here?? |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1200 Registered: Feb-08 | I found this rather appropriate: http://newcanofworms.blogspot.com/2009/09/rules-of-debate-101-by-sb.html |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14661 Registered: May-04 | .  Well, aren't you the smart one. Mr. Bay, you don't have a clue about what has transpired over the last six years between Rantz and myself. I could explain a few things to you - like how Rantz has stormed off this forum multiple times - stormed off a forum! - said he was never coming back and then came back under yet another name - did we ever decide just how many names Rantz has used on this forum? I dont think so! - and once even came back as his own father to defend his poor ninconpoop son from the likes of Jan Vigne. The best ones are when he offers to permanently withdraw from the forum if he has offended anyone and then qickly realizes someone might actually take him up on his offer to go away and he quickly rescinds the offer and then proceeeds to insult me some more. Or how Rantz has started numerous threads trying to derail a conversation I was having with another member. Or how Rantz has claimed he doesn't need to know anything about audio and I am being mean because I try to explain what is happening. Yes, Mr. Bay, I have been called mean and arrogant simply because I know what I'm talking about, he doesn't and doesn't care to learn anything and I try to explain the basic operation of a system to someone wanting information. Knowledge bothers Rantz. Think about that for a minute. Or maybe just because Rantz is so f'ing nuts he can't even figure out whether he likes a CD player until someone tells him which one should be the better of the two. And how he and a few other souls on this forum cannot get over their little grudges and hurt felings. Now, none of this has anything to do with audio and your conclusion that this deflates any constructive discussion of cables is absurd and out of line as far as I'm concerned. Either you can debate cables or you cannot. It would appear you cannot. And I don't care to, I thought I made that perfectly clear much earlier on in this thread. I said cable threads end poorly, we all know that. Just ask yourself, JB, who pushed this to begin with and who cannot contribute anything other than insults and insults directed at one particular individual. Then, if you want to switch this discussion to how long should your surround speaker cables be, then you go right ahead. Because that too is CYA and nothing more. You don't go from, "If all of this was so critical all conductors would be made of solid Gold", to, "16 g would be aright if you use a decent wire company like audioquest 16/2. Good advice or not?" And, no, it really wasn't all that great of a piece of advice when you didn't know any more about the system than room dimensions. Now, this thread can end right now as far as I'm concerned. No one has anything to say that hasn't been said since this is a very, very dumbed down version of a cable thread and anything more that will be said will only be the sort of BS that comes from Rantz in his childish little way of taking one more swipe at me rather than having a d@mn thing intelligent to contribute. But do not tell me how I should conduct myself on this forum when you have no idea what has gone before and how much I have suffered with the mental incapacities and flights of fantasy which occur in the small little deranged mind of Rantz. Do not get up on your high horse and lecture me about civility when I have dealt with his tantrums for the last half dozen years. Yes, you do sound condescending as all he!! when you try it. OK?! Kindly excuse yourself and we can all leave this thread now. Or we can stick around for Rantz's ever so intelligent comeback - which I assure you will come. He can't help himself. . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12514 Registered: Dec-03 | the reason gold is used on connectors, as a coating, is for two reasons, guy. Gold is a noble metal, so in high humidity settings (Florida, in cars, etc) or just over long periods of time, you don't have to be concerned with oxidation. The other reason, is that gold is far more maleable than the other metals you mentioned, and as such, forms to connections more readily, causing less loss at the connections between cable and component. The rest of your attacks and diatribe weren't really worth reading. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1201 Registered: Feb-08 | You can leave if you wish Jan. I offer only ideas here on all subjects I respond to, most of them are not good or particularly smart but that is why I am here to try and learn something. If you are here grinding your axe then I suppose that is your problem spread to all the rest of us. Take it or leave it but your posts are contributing to a very toxic atmosphere with things that absolutely nothing with the debate at hand. I would, however, like some honest discussion on the topic at hand welcoming debate from folks not interested in ancient grudges and name calling. Anyone have trouble with all cables being about 10% of the total value of your system? |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1202 Registered: Feb-08 | The gold theory for connectors prompted the entirely made of gold comment I made. Introducing interfaces such as gold connectors, soldering, splicing, or anything else to the original wire I believe can change things in more significant ways than making hugely expensive differences to the wire itself. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14662 Registered: May-04 | . "The rest of your attacks and diatribe weren't really worth reading." And that was?! GoodGrief! When was the last time you picked up anything informational? When was the last time you actually had a conversation in which you learned something new? Or, is there no room left in your skull for anything that hasn't already been rivetted in place by decades of neglect and misuse? Gold is used for audio jewelry and not much more. Gold alloy is used for the sale and nothing more. It's not about the gold, it's about the connector itself! You really haven't figured that out, have you? You want to discuss connectivity now? OK, how about we discuss the problems with dissimilar materials - brass, nickel and gold all together - and the effects on signal quality those dissimilar materials have? It's not a pretty picture. Gold plating does not make up for the damage done by all those layers applied to a lousy connector. How about we discuss how most of the gold plated RCA's on too much junk hifi - even stuff someone pays too much for - is nothing more than a lousy $0.10 RCA connector with tabs bent over to hold it to a 10" long cardboard strip that is riveted at the ends to the chassis of yet another lousy HT receiver or a "budget" pre amp? That's good connectivity in your mind? It's not in mine. I'll take a homely RCA with a nut and washer that bolts to the chassis one by one so it doesn't pull out of the cardboard when I am working with my cables. I'll take a bolt type RCA that actually makes electrical contact with the chassis and allows ne to configure a decent grounding path for all connections to reduce noise in the system. I'll take an RCA that actually terminates in 75 Ohms over gold BS anyday. How about some gold plated bananas that really, really screw with the sound? Let's stick some tin and lead on that solder joint so we can really hear what's good aout our high priced components, eh? Just think about what you are saying, gold is not the be all and end all of connectors and in most cases it is a worthless addition that does far less than any good connector should. It is there primarly for its looks and whatever contribution it has made to slowing oxidation are overwhelmed by its lousy construction as a connector. Do you know the difference betwen a Pioneer receiver and a Pioneer Elite receiver? Gold plated RCA's on a cardboard strip. Try an Eichman Bullet and you should hear a vast difference between any generic gold plated connector and a well designed RCA or post that actually terminates in a good and proper electrical connection. Or don't. Just go on not thinking and just jabbering on about things you were told decades ago. Don't think and for godssake don't listen. What you might find out would scare you half to death. Now, if you are finished with your BS ad hominem attacks, get the hell out of my face. You waste my time as much as Rantz does! . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1204 Registered: Feb-08 | I'll try again, Jan read your last post trying to imagine it was written by someone else to you. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14663 Registered: May-04 | . To Jim Bay ... Stop lecturing me. If you have a problem with me, ignore me as I have told all others who can't say anything intelligent to do. My posts are clearly identifiable before you even see the first word. If you don't like what I post, don't look. But don't make this my problem. When you decide what this thread is about - and it is not about me and it doesn't seem to be about the effects of cables, then we can have a civil discussion. When we eliminate the crap such as, "The rest of your attacks and diatribe weren't really worth reading", I will stop responding in kind. You haven't been around here long enough, JB, to know about this but I give what I receive. You start with the BS with me and I will provide the same back at you. You stop and I stop. I'm here to discuss audio and nothing more. I don't care if you like me or not. I'm here to discuss audio. If you care to join in, then you are welcome. If you care to insult me and act like a fool, then you should ignore me because you won't like my reaction. And, yes, I have a problem with "all cables being about 10% of the total value of your system?" Buy components that work together at whatever the cost to each device might be. Do not assign arbitrary values to each component or to what you should and should not believe until you have experienced something to give you thought. And do think. If someone tells you you shouldn't do something because they don't approve, do it and find out for yourself. Think! But don't be stoopid! Doing anything just because everyone else is doing it is not bright. Just following the herd without thinking is not going to get you anywhere except where everyone else has gathered. You may not want to be there after all. Don't believe anyone who tells you anything when they are telling you they know what you should be buying, what you should be hearing and how much you should spend of your own money. Develop priorities and use them wisely not arbitrarilly. If you spend 2%, 10% or 30% on cables or speakers or a single LP, it's your system and your music. Spend more on your music than you do on your components. Make the music involving and informing and screw anyone who tries to tell you otherwise. . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1205 Registered: Feb-08 | If I can't lecture you why is it that you can lecture me? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14664 Registered: May-04 | . What part of "when you stop, I will stop", do you not understand? It seems awfully clear to me. If you're here to discuss audio, we can do that. But not if you keep lecturing me, telling me my posts aren't worth your time but your's are so ever so much more important or you keep changing the topic of the thread. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14665 Registered: May-04 | . JB - I responded to your question concerning cost of cables. Do you prefer to discuss cables or audio of some sort or would you prefer to continue down the same path that will lead you nowhere? I've made an attempt to get the discussion back to audio. Now you can either respond to that post or there is nothing more to say and we can all move on. Your choice. . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1206 Registered: Feb-08 | I am officially done talking to you now! That doesn't mean however, that this thread is done. You can have the last word if you insist. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14666 Registered: May-04 | . Don't go away mad. "!" It's only an audio forum. . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12518 Registered: Dec-03 | Jim, I don't really go by percentages for cost of cables. I just find decent cables, and use them. For interconnects, I used knukonceptz eKs line for my entire system. They're relatively cheap, and nice looking. I now have a uniform look to all the cables in my system, and secure connections between everything. I used their Karma SS wiring to build my cables for the KEF and MartinLogan mains, and for my surrounds, and center, also using their banana plugs which give a nicely secure connection at both the bi-wired speakers, and the amp and receiver. They're worth a look if you want a site for some decently built, aand affordable cables that are aesthetic, well-made, and secure fitting. www.knukonceptz.com this forum needs an "ignore user" button, like some of the other forum software offers. lol |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1208 Registered: Feb-08 | Outstanding!! I am sure you would laugh yourself silly at the looks of my cabling! I claim that if the Auto Mechanic can have the worst looking (but fully functional) car then... So what would be something you would tell some poor soul who is just starting a Home Theater like the guy this morning. HE hasn't yet been to the Big Box store yet and needs some ammo prior to going! I am sticking with Dan L. and going with something to the effect of first getting some speakers that deserve anything other than 16 ga (if not 14ga.) zip cord bare ended. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12520 Registered: Dec-03 | bare ended is totally fine. I use bananas simply for ease of disconnection when I'm cleaning house and such. I have cats, and they get into everything, so I need to be able to move things to vacuum and so forth. Many would argue that bare wire is a better connection, anyway. There is a table on-line for spaker wire gauge based on power and distance run that can be helpful, but really for speaker wire, I like to find something supple and easy to bend. That makes it easier to place the cable when you're making everything neat and tucked away. Otherwise, it's really just a matter of what you want to buy. I think you'll find more difference with buying a better amplifier with good damping, and a superior power supply with a lot of reserve, tahn with expensive cables. Some things just don't make enough difference to warrant the price.. like arguing over 32 bit hybrid vs bitstream DACs. They all decode to the same analog signal, so you'll honestly never hear a difference either way. Not after you factor in things like the amount of distortion a speaker itself produces. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1211 Registered: Feb-08 | After 20 years in the automotive biz and for the nearly 30 years of audio installation I have done (disclaimer - generally, people who need me to install their equipment for them do NOT go high end and barely, if ever get out of the low end segment) it has taken me way too long to get into details of speaker wire. I had a client recently that paid about the same for the wire as the receiver and it got me wondering. In the auto biz where low cost and weight are HUGE issues (save a dollar / car times 50,000 cars) the problems were chaffing and pinching of the bigger wires and just plain the fragile nature of the very small ones. We tried blind tests several times with smaller gauge wire but the experiment was a nightmare (as with almost everything else) and the data inconclusive at best. I have to think that all the HTiB manufacturers put SOME thought into their 25 foot lengths of 24ga wire they include with their systems but, maybe not |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 5 Registered: Mar-10 | I promise you guys that when i get some time i will do my own experiment on my hifi system and take some pics but tonight and tomorrow night i'm running two big systems one 8K system and one 9K System in the same venue, the Next Men are playing on the Larger Funktion 1 system tonight and both nights go till 5am. There is also another small system to put up on the mountain tomorrow, (i love that outdoor sound! the air is thinner at 1900M so how would that effect the sound?) so getting sleep right now is an issue. On Sunday night i'm leaving to the south of France to pick up the quad system and tannoy speakers i won on ebay 1200euros for everything described in this ebay listing: 150417991998 I think it was a pretty good deal. My next post is going to be about building a house and what we should try to consider when designing the main listening room, it looks like i may be building a house in the next year or two, obviously there are restrictions through planning and practicality but it will be interesting to see what people have to say about making the rooms sound good. All this bickering reminds me of the days i was on CB radio |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14744 Registered: Dec-04 | Building a sound room is a subject that I am about to broach myself, and little further along than the dimensions being odd integers and non square. A dry read, but obviously the most basic element of even a room with a boombox, when given the opportunity. I might do a little better than a boombox, just for fun. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14745 Registered: Dec-04 | And all the cabling will be Blue Jeans, covered with a sleeve the size of a hose, all supported off the carpet with risers. A chicago roll, if you will. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3738 Registered: Feb-07 | At the risk of sounding like a broken record, you really can't go wrong with Blue Jeans. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3067 Registered: Nov-05 | Yeah, but they fade Dave. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3758 Registered: May-05 | That's when the magic happens, Rantz. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1212 Registered: Feb-08 | HA!!! Only when washed in hot water!!! I have to try Blue Jean, I have been stuck on monoprice for a while and if I am not mistaken (as could well be the case) their shipping charges seem to be escalating. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3068 Registered: Nov-05 | Wow, JV can sure put a spin on things. Just how insulting do you want this to get Vigne. What a very wierd woman you are, but then we all know that don't we. Or do you JV? Actually, do you know what you are? Have you figured it out? Could your parents ever figure it out? I doubt it. Usually, these mental imbalances go back to childhood. What happened in your childhood Vigne that has turned you into this freaky pyschotic woman? You know as well as I do I didn't start a thing on this thread, I merely warned against starting it. As I said, you have poor understanding. Go back and read see who started this shite again. Who follows Art and I around this forum and throws crap on our posts? What a poor miserable wretch you are. Is this how you get your jollies in life? Personally, I think you have a big chip on your shoulder because you spent 30 odd years selling audio but never made a success of yourself. Well, that's perfectly understanding for a psycho. You are just a poor, simple, accident of nature who can't stand anyone not thinking as you do. You have a god complex and you think everyone has to toe your line. You are a complete waste of air woman. Keep taking your pills and babble on with your lies and insults since it makes you happy, but I advise you to seek help before you hurt yourself or someone else. You are a very unstable woman - or creature - or whatever the hell you are. |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12531 Registered: Dec-03 | If you want suggestions on designing a room for home AV, let me know when you're ready. While I haven't done much in the way of ultra high end AV rooms, I did design houses (architectural design, over 4 years of it in school) and designed and oversaw the building of my last house, which was 7,349sq ft. (for sale now) and I've got a fair understanding of the physics of audio and the engineering aspect, as I'm also an engineer. I can offer a few ideas for live/dead rooms, non-parallel walls, sound treatment for bass control and first and second order reflections, light control, and so forth as well as structured wiring and component and speaker placement. oh, and wear jeans on a construction site. Faded ones if possible. *grin* |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14668 Registered: May-04 | . "Or we can stick around for Rantz's ever so intelligent comeback - which I assure you will come. He can't help himself." And another fine contribution to the fine art of audio forum discussion threads it was. ROTFLMF'ingAO at you, Rantz! . |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3069 Registered: Nov-05 | Laughter has always been theraputic and while it's a good start, it doesn't come close for what ails you. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 874 Registered: Jul-07 | "Actually, do you know what you are? Have you figured it out? Could your parents ever figure it out? I doubt it. Usually, these mental imbalances go back to childhood. What happened in your childhood Vigne that has turned you into this freaky pyschotic woman? " That's crossing the line MR. P!ssing back and forth is one thing, that post is another. If you have an argument to make, make it. I think we've all had enough of vulgarity. |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1455 Registered: Nov-06 | Agreed... this thread has gone off the deep end. |
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Bronze Member Username: TiforeLittle Italia, Ohio USA Post Number: 19 Registered: Feb-10 | You're all adults correct? This reminds me of something you'd read on a High School Drama Blog. Ever heard of not stooping down to the level of someone else? Some one needs to be grown up enough to do exactly that. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3071 Registered: Nov-05 | I don't think so Chris, not when I have to keep putting up with her crap. Sorry if it hurts yours or anyone elses sensitivities - it's not about anything except this idiot's mentality. If she wants to keep giving it, I'll keep giving it back. If you don't think what she says isn't crossing the line, then I'm sorry, but that's too damn bad. I agree I'm stooping to her level, and normally that's not me. But she's a different kettle of fish. And if you think she's a "she" who deserves to be treated like a lady you're way off the mark. I respect woman and treat them as such - always. I apologise for this thread, but not for retaliation against this extreme wierdo. I'm sick and tired of her BS, but I'm going nowhere. She stops, I stop. That's it. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14746 Registered: Dec-04 | This is your brain on cables. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14750 Registered: Dec-04 | Conductor Types 2.1 Tough Pitch Copper (TPC) Tough Pitch Copper (TPC) is the name given to unprocessed copper: the type usually employed in general purpose cabling such as power leads and many inexpensive audio cables. TPC is melted once and formed into a cylindrical conductor (wire) which is then allowed to cool. This wire is then repeatedly drawn to reduce it to the desired diameter. TPC contains somewhere between 300 and 500 ppm of oxygen and other impurities, which is considered far too high for serious audio applications. When used as speaker cables, mains power cables tend to cause a loss of fine detail resulting in a 'woolly' or dull sounding system. This is due to the TPC and also, in part, to the PVC insulation used in standard mains power cables. 2.2 Oxygen Free Copper (OFC) Oxygen free copper was developed in Japan around 1975 as it became increasingly apparent that sound quality was related to the quality of copper and the processing used during cable manufacture. OFC is produced through an extrusion process which takes place in an oxygen-free-inert-gas atmosphere. This leads to a reduced oxygen content (10 ppm) when compared to TPC and an improvement in conductivity which typically measures in at between 0.5% and 2% greater than TPC. The OFC process therefore produces a much higher quality audio cable than the TPC process. High purity conductors sound clearer than their unprocessed (TPC) counterparts because there are fewer crystal boundaries present to cause signal degradation. 2.3 Linear Crystal-Oxygen Free Copper (LC-OFC) Also around 1975, Hitachi developed their own method for reducing grain or crystal boundaries. LC-OFC is Hitachi's patented process and their exclusive product. After extrusion, the copper wire is re-heated, or annealed, which reduces impurities between the crystal boundaries as the copper crystal grows and leads to a longer grain length. A typical crystal (or grain) in a 1mm diameter LC-OFC conductor is 130 mm long compared to only 4mm (typically) long in TPC or OFC conductors. 2.4 Ohno Continuous Casting copper (OCC copper) In 1985 Professor Ohno from the China Institute of Technology developed his patented method for the extrusion of a grain free copper wire. (Technical papers are available from the Japan Inst. Metals and from Chapman & Hall, publishers.) When a pure metal solidifies, its crystals grow in a specific geometrical pattern (typical to that metal) emanating from a nucleus, rather like the dendritic growth pattern of a tree. The size of the metal crystals grown can be varied by repeatedly annealing metal such as is done in the LC-OFC process. The structure of a strand of copper may be likened to that of a bag of sugar. Every grain of sugar has a crystal boundary. In a conductor, these crystal boundaries (potential barriers) act as a non-linear resistance to the flow of electric current. It follows that, the fewer the boundaries, the less the effect on an electric signal as it propagates from one end of the conductor to the other. The Ohno continuous casting method re-heats the extrusion as the molten copper is forced out of the mould and very slowly and gradually draws the grain down the conductor's length, creating a 'single grain structure'. Actually, because no copper is 100% pure, there will always be a few crystal boundaries produced by impurities. The frequency of boundaries created when a 99.9997% pure copper ingot is used are quite insignificant in normal audio cable runs. A typical crystal in a copper conductor drawn to 0.3 mm diam. using the OCC process is 125.00 metres long! The benefits are obvious, with almost no crystal boundaries, the audio signal is no longer impeded down the copper wire and more information and detail is delivered faithfully to the receiving equipment. Comparison Between Copper Types (0.3 mm diameter): TPC OFC OCC Purity >99.9% >99.99% >99.999% Specific gravity 8.75 8.926 8.938 Gas Impurities O2 200~500 ppm <10 ppm <5 ppm H2 <0.5 ppm <0.5 ppm <0.35 ppm Average crystal size 0.007 m 0.02 m 125.00 m Crystals per metre 150 50 0.008 2.5 Silver plated copper Seemingly good high frequency dynamics are a characteristic of silver plated copper conductors. Silver plated copper can appear to make a dull sounding system come to life, but at the expense of good quality bass or low frequency delivery. Silver plated copper cables can also prove fatiguing and irritating over prolonged listening periods. Silver plated copper, or cables employing two materials of differing resistance, are best avoided for audio interconnects and speaker cables. Whilst it's a cheap method for producing an audio interconnect that may initially sound exciting, we at Atlas Cables refuse to use silver plated copper for audio applications. Better results can be achieved with high quality processed copper and superior dielectrics; naturally these cost more than cheap silver plated copper. 2.6 Pure silver Silver, with its lower resistivity, is a better conductor than copper, but any conductor, whether silver or copper, must have a reasonable cross sectional area when used for audio applications. Silver is much more expensive than copper and, in order to keep costs within reason, the cross sectional area of silver audio cables are often compromised to an extent that the resulting sound is 'bass light'. Good silver cables are, however, fast, dynamic and seamless through the audio spectrum and provide exceptional detail and instrument resolution. Material Purity... Why I would never ever use lamp cord wire anytime to save a buck. Welders know there is a purity difference in metals. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14670 Registered: May-04 | . Rantz, you are truly f'ing nuts! And even I'm sorry for what goes on in your head. It must be miserable to live like you do and I pity your wife who has to live with soemone who gets so involved in an audio forum and your grudges against someone who don't even know. Anyone who cares to do so can go back up to the top of this thread, https://www.ecoustics.com/cgi-bin/bbs/show.pl?tpc=1&post=1845720#POST1845720 and they can take a look at who was the first with the "Pi$$ off" and the "F off once and for all, we all know you are the one with something seriously wrong". They can also see who was the one telling you to leave this alone. You escalated this thread when you could not leave well enough alone and had to bring in another forum's battles to satisfy your ego, your lack of understanding ... what? Surely it was to satisfy something that did not need to be introduced into this forum. We have not had a cable thread on this forum for ages because they always result in this crap. So you had to intentionally go out looking for another forum's wars to bring into this forum. Why? You then went further when you made those comments to me. And you've been given the benefit of my advice regarding what you get in return. I stopped coddling you over five years ago. But I suppose you don't even remember I was the first to post how you should return to the forum after the first time you stomped off the Old Dogs thread and what I got in return was Pa Rantz. Don't be a weasel one more time in this thread. You're absolutlely incapable of having a discussion about audio, you refuse to learn even the basics to keep your head above water in such a discussion and yet you hang around a thread like this just to be what you are - a royal PITA! Not one of your posts had anything to do with cables or audio in general. And this isn't the first time you've been in a thread where you did not contribute to the discussion of audio but when I was involved the results of those threads were the same as this thread. That is a serious indictment of your motives. So why were you here unless you had other intentions? Seriously, Rantz, after six years of this crap - with all the BS I listed and more - from you, get some medical help ot just learn to deal with your issues. Grow up and forget the grudges. You're in your 50's, act like it. Don't respond to this with your ususal, that would be a start. . |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 6 Registered: Mar-10 | Just been toying with the idea of twisting up some home made speaker cable. The idea would be to use solid silver wire to feed the top end of my bi wired speakers for example 3 X 2M lengths of this for each pole: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Solid-Silver-Wire-99-99-Pure-0-315mm-x-2M_W0QQitemZ1205438 72877QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET?hash=item1c10f9 876d#ht_927wt_1002 I think i need to learn a little about impedance as from what i understand the distance between the negative and positive can effect the overall impedance of the cable. If that works well i could then just run some of this cable to the low end of the speakers: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem%26item%3D270370467142&ssPageName =STRK:MEWAX:IT#ht_7586wt_754 That way i have pure silver to help deliver more information to the tweeters and a nice fat ofc cable to make sure there is nothing lacking when it comes to punchy mid and strong responsive bass. Anyone made their own solid silver cables before? |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 7 Registered: Mar-10 | I don't know if it's going to make that much difference to me right now, i've got so much wax in my ears after last night's party. Took some photos with me in front of the amps but i'm having problems uploading images, something to do with my internet connection, it has never worked properly here. Probably something to do with the cabling in the building! Another big night tonight, must keep the ear plugs in this time, at least when i'm getting close to the speakers! 8K in a small room is dangerous! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 3073 Registered: Nov-05 | You keep repeating the same old shite all the time Vigne- go back and read where you started this with the first insult you moron. You keep repeating the same things over and over again. You're like a broken record. You are a broken person. Go see a quack - seriously. You really, really need to get fixed. You tell me to grow up and forget grudges - what a goddamn hyprocrite. I wrote when you stop, I'll stop. Keep it up fool. I'll be waiting. Oh,anf Vigne. I have a wonderful life. Aren't you jealous? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14672 Registered: May-04 | . No, not in the least. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 560 Registered: Dec-06 | I'll try to move this back onto cables as I was experimenting a bit yesterday. Look, I'm not going to pretend I know a heck of a lot about the subject. But I do know Cardas cables have a reputation of rolling off the treble. I started using the Crosslink inteconnect instead of my old vdH The Wave on my CD player and that's definitely the change in sound that I've experienced. Not that the highs are rolled off, I think that's the wrong way to put it because they are all there. But it just sounds smoother and less grainy now. I am running all copper now, no silver plated stuff. I just figure why mix metals that have different properties? I don't know how much effect silver plating really has, but I can only imagine some of the signal being carried faster in that region of the cable, and slower in the copper part. That hardly sounds ideal to me, the various parts of the signal should be carried at whatever pace the components dictate it should be carried at when they release it, and that relation should be at least kept constant. One other point is that from my readings, my amp works best with low capacitance interconnect cables. This is what the Stereophile review states: Interestingly, a key change from the 2010 to the 2010S involved replacing the older model's 50k-ohm volume pot with a 20k-ohm unit: a seemingly insignificant change, but one that served to linearize the product's upper-range frequency response, because this is an integrated amp with a passive preamp stage: The music signal goes straight from the volume pot to the amplifier's power section. Accordingly, the input impedance of the 2010S is lower than average, which may force the prospective owner to be more cautious than usual when it comes to choosing source components and interconnects. Cardas cables have some of the lowest capacitance numbers I've seen (at least compared to other brands I've researched). After switching the cable there does seem to be much better dynamics (and that smoother sound I mentioned earlier). But that may have to do with speaker placement as I was messing around with that a lot yesterday too. My reading suggests a high capacitance cable's effect will be to actually roll off the high frequencies. Low capacitance cables, like Cardas, should actually not exhibit that roll off. I'm not sure if there is any effect on dynamics. So in theory, the Cardas should be letting those highs through easier than the higher capacitance vdH I was using, but to me it's just a more pleasing and smoother sound up top. But maybe that makes sense, maybe roll off of highs can make them sound somewhat grainy. I guess an example like this one, where an amp is designed a little different than most amps, shows just how important using the right cable can be. Unfortunately, useful insight like this isn't all that easy to come by...most publications won't touch on details like these. And even if the effects are small, it adds up to achieving what we all call system synergy, where that one small change or two just makes things sound "right". |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12599 Registered: Dec-03 | http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between- monster-cable-and/ |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1228 Registered: Feb-08 | I guess this just goes to show how deep this conspiracy runs. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 561 Registered: Dec-06 | Not going to debate whether it's all in my head or not. It might be. I am open to that possibility. I am just reporting what I heard yesterday and I felt there was a pretty significant difference. By the way, the Cardas cable is significantly cheaper than the vdH, which I will now be selling! I guess you don't think it's possible for an amp to have a certain property that may make it a better match with one cable over another? It's like JV said earlier, to me that seems like completely ignoring decades worth of research into the design of audio gear. It doesn't have to be a significant, night and day, difference. It just has to be another step in the right direction, and if you do enough of those then you get results. |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1229 Registered: Feb-08 | Certainly speaker cables can have a difference. If the input doesn't match the output there is no doubt! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14769 Registered: Dec-04 | Dan what is the output impedence of your amp? See, that's a question that is rarely broached. The cabling is not a 'component', but rather a member of a complete circuit encompassing the outputs of the amp, posts, speaker(who knows whats in there) and posts, again. Viewed with a Naim eye, the output circuit is considered as whole different section of the book, and the thinking that goes with that. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2357 Registered: May-06 | I worked with the engineers at MIT Cables to come up with a better solution that my Shotgun 2s due to the higher impedance of my MAC tube amps. The amp's impedance created a greater amount of feedback to the cable's Network boxes due do the number of articulation points in that cable. They changed me out to their CVT 1 Interconnect which allowed for a quieter background due to the gain control on the pre-amp not to having to be turned up so high to reach relatively the same volume. I can not tell you what all of that means but that is why they engineer the cables and I listen to the music. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 562 Registered: Dec-06 | Output impedance, or input impedance? The manufacturer only quotes input impedance, as outlined below: • Input Sensitivity : 250mV • Input Impedance : >14K Ohms, line input |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14681 Registered: May-04 | . " ... because this is an integrated amp with a passive preamp stage: The music signal goes straight from the volume pot to the amplifier's power section." This is an integrated amplifier, therefore, unless pre out provisions were supplied no pre amp output impedance would typically be stated. Using a strictly passive system based around only a potentiometer, there is no set output impedance for the pre amp. It varies with the setting on the pot. This is one of the most significant "sonic" issues with a passive pre amp and the one which requires the most care when matching cables and components. It's also one of the most not mentioned aspects of passive pre amps when they are being sold. It would appear the unit has some sort of buffer circuit to maintain a constant input impedance but lacks any such circuitry for the output - which is consistent with most passive pre amps. (A transformer based passive pre amp is the next step up in minimizing these inertactions.) As Stereophile points out, the input impedance to the pre amp is significantly lower than average which will necessiate careful selection of cables. Passive pre amps are somewhat famous for sounding "different" at various output levels and being extremely sensitive to cable changes. Any pre amp with an input impedance set at 14k Ohms would be quite sensitive to such changes. You are looking for a 10:1 ration as optimum between the output impedance of the source and the input impedance of the receiving component. That would mean you should be looking for source components in this system with an output impedance of approximately 1k Ohm. That could be difficult to find in some cases. Disobeying that 10:1 rule would result in less current delivery into the pre amp and a constriction of dynamics - already a problem with passive pre amps used at low volume levels. None the less, most highly capacitive cables do roll off the high end somewhat. That's one function of a capacitor, it can filter highs or lows depending on its use within a circuit. It is a rather old fashioned way to design cables and one aspect of cable design which led to the concept of cables adding "colorations" or, even more dismissively, being said to be "tone controls" for a bad recording or a lousy system match. Highly capacitive cables, speaker or interconnect, always require very short runs, should never be used on a turntable and have the reputation for sending zero NFB components into oscillation and premature death. With any passive pre amp system make certain your pre amp to power amplifier runs are kept as short as possible. This too would be one of the arguments for including a passive pre amp - a very clean device - in an integrated amplifier. In such a system you get many of the benefits of the passive system and few of the disadvantages along with no chance you will screw up the interconnects between pre and power amplifiers. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14682 Registered: May-04 | . "I don't know how much effect silver plating really has, but I can only imagine some of the signal being carried faster in that region of the cable, and slower in the copper part. That hardly sounds ideal to me, the various parts of the signal should be carried at whatever pace the components dictate it should be carried at when they release it, and that relation should be at least kept constant." The electrons are still moving at the same rate of delivery. Silver has a lower total resistance per foot than any other conventional conductor material and would therefore have less total reactance in the cable. Less reactance should mean less interaction which could result in "coloration". Though many listeners prefer the "sound" of copper and believe silver alone or silver plating added to copper is responsible for adding a layer of coloration (  ) making systems tend toward a toppy sound overall. But, if the source components gets the signal moving at the right "speed", it will arrive at the inputs at the right "speed" with a silver plated copper cable. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14683 Registered: May-04 | . http://www.engadget.com/2008/03/03/audiophiles-cant-tell-the-difference-between- monster-cable-and/ So, you're not so hot on a lead, tin, brass or nickel cables but you don't think you'd mind listening through a set of rusty coat hangers?!!! I'm beginning to believe it. Consider for the moment what the "coat hanger" represents. A solid core cable of significant guage with no dielectric material short of its lacquer coating. In short - magnet wire. Low resistance, low capacitance and low inductance and zero dielectric absorption. Kept to extremely short runs - what's the length of a coat hanger? about 18"? not a bad cable when you think about it at that length. Though the very short length probably has as much to do with it being a good speaker cable and the results of this BS "test" as anything. It is now being sold in eight foot lengths as "anti-Cable". I use magnet wire for my speaker runs. What paper numbers folks won't swallow as propoganda - sheeeesh! You remind me of the real hard core, gun toting anti-"Obama care" Tea Party "n" and "f" word shouters, all partisanship and not much thought. . |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 12379 Registered: Feb-05 | Van den Hul's The Wave is my least favorite vdH cable. I used it for a short while and traded it back in. I found that at nearly the same price The Well Hybrid was far better for my needs. Van den Hul is a mixed bag, some great cables and other clunkers. Their upper end pure silver cables are amazing. Also have tried Cardas and didn't like them much either. I would like to try some of their higher end cables to see if it is perhaps the lower end ones that I didn't enjoy. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14684 Registered: May-04 | . "Certainly speaker cables can have a difference. If the input doesn't match the output there is no doubt!" I don't get that, JB. It's a cable. A purely passive device. How can the "output" not match the "input"? . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14772 Registered: Dec-04 | OK, I will bust out the cable thread a bit here... how about 300wpc Mac amp pounding full out with 28G magnet wire, 1/3 silver? Cross section leads to contact surface area and current transmission. Look at the surface area of contact before looking at bigger wire. I will stretch this to supply current/wires/recepticles etc. on our mains infeed. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 563 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks for the thorough explanation Jan. I was looking for the ratio between output vs. input impedance for my components but unfortunately the output impedance is not published for either of my players. However, my main player is the matching player for the integrated and so one would think they should work together nicely. My secondary player (a universal mainly for DVD-A and SACD discs) sounds really good, so hopefully that's a sign that I've got a good match. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14778 Registered: Dec-04 | JV, I think JB meant simple connectivity. JB, I must disagree on principal. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14692 Registered: May-04 | . "OK, I will bust out the cable thread a bit here... how about 300wpc Mac amp pounding full out with 28G magnet wire, 1/3 silver? Cross section leads to contact surface area and current transmission. Look at the surface area of contact before looking at bigger wire. I will stretch this to supply current/wires/recepticles etc. on our mains infeed." Uh, ... ... huh?! . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14693 Registered: May-04 | . "JV, I think JB meant simple connectivity." ! Oh! ... ... huh?! "JB, I must disagree on principal." Why are you doing anything on the principal? What'd she ever do to you? . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12609 Registered: Dec-03 | Actually Jan, I have an IQ of 143, I am a conservative, simply because I do not believe I need a government to tell me how to run every aspect of my life, nor do I need them to tell me how allof my money should be spent (on other people.) I do support our military, I am a member of the NRA, and I have degrees in Electrical Engineering, and English. I've worked in the audio industry for over two decades, and I posted that link for the humorous aspect, which apparently went over your head. Also, for what it's worth, a coat hanger, when straightened, is closer to about 36-40" not that this matters greatly. Don't be so ready to jump to judgment of people whom you do not know, nor should you be so ready to fling random insults. Doing this only makes you look like a fool, and it is better to be thought the fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14698 Registered: May-04 | . "Actually Jan, I have an IQ of 143, I am a conservative ... yada yada ... yada yada ... look how smart I am ... yada yada ... look how great I am ... yada yada ... more BS about me ... I just got a tooth fixed ... yada yada ... I'm great ... etc. etc. etc. Also, for what it's worth, a coat hanger, when straightened, is closer to about 36-40" not that this matters greatly. Don't be so ready to jump to judgment of people whom you do not know, nor should you be so ready to fling random insults. Doing this only makes you look like a fool, and it is better to be thought the fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt." Actually, GW, I didn't need to know any of that BS about your life and loves and I don't need you lecturing me on politics or gun control anymore than I do on hifi. But now that you've opened your mouth and removed all doubt ... They didn't say if they used the whole coat hanger, did they? That little squiggly part?! I wouldn't go near it! It definitely sounds like a coat hanger. Hell! even you could hear that! . |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12613 Registered: Dec-03 | why do you find it necessary to resort to personal insults and attacks every time someone posts something that isn't in complete agreement with you? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14702 Registered: May-04 | . Why did you feel the need to post all that BS about yourself? It had nothing to do with audio. I didn't ask for your resume. I mentioned "the real hard core, gun toting anti-"Obama care" Tea Party "n" and "f" word shouters" who live on "all partisanship and not much thought." Those are people in need of being denounced by anyone from any political stripe with half a brain. (Do not lecture me on the propriety of using the "F" or "N" word towards a member of Congress.) None of that required your IQ score as a response unless you are trying to prove you have half a brain. Who are you trying to impress? Me or yourself? If the former, you failed. I've worked with similar personalities and they too have a sense of humor equal to that of my back door sill and an ego the equal to Tiger Wood's private parts. If the latter, how many times a day do you pat yourself on the back? Never mind, I don't really care. . |
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Gold Member Username: JrbayLivonia [Detroit area], Michigan USA Post Number: 1236 Registered: Feb-08 |  |
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Platinum Member Username: GlasswolfColumbia, SC USA Post Number: 12615 Registered: Dec-03 | LOL u mad |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14709 Registered: May-04 | . is tht a ? Y R U makng ths personL? . |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1456 Registered: Nov-06 | "I use magnet wire for my speaker runs." the anti-cable it is 12 gauge enameled magnet wire |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14716 Registered: May-04 | . Not for me. I'm not interested in paying someone their asking price for magnet wire just because they call it "anti-cable". I actually use magnet wire and it is not 12 AWG. . |
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Gold Member Username: StryvnWisconsin Post Number: 1219 Registered: Dec-06 | and it actually works |
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Gold Member Username: GavdawgAlbany, New York Post Number: 1457 Registered: Nov-06 | oh I know magnet wire works well. What gauge, Jan? |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14807 Registered: Dec-04 | 22G copper, 28G jewellers silver. Multiple runs of copper for bass to suit. Layed out on 4" packing tape. I lost the link to Jan's project, but played with them with a 300w Mac amp at Mikes place. Works fine, but beware the cable risers approaching Burmese tiger traps, but for gerbils. I watched Mike skewer himself and near died laughing. |
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New member Username: Izzzzzz6ChamonixFrance Post Number: 8 Registered: Mar-10 | If the capacitance of a cable can color the sound as if it were a filter then would it not be better to run the + & - of the cables as two separate runs rather than the classic cable where both the cables are stuck side by side, the only reason they would have capacitance is because they are constantly so close together. A capacitor is many layers of two conductors placed close together with an insulator between them. Speaker cable would have capacitance as it is so close together, separate the wires and there is surly far less chance of capacitance therefore less chance of filtering the sound? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14724 Registered: May-04 | . Any configuration of two conductors running together will have some capacitance and inductance unless you run the conductors about 6" apart. While some installations can accomodate such a sheme (my own cable's legs are spaced approximately 5" apart), most cannot. No manufacturer that I am aware of builds such a cable since they would be difficult to work with in the majority of systems and very likely have extremely low SAF. However, more to your point, twisting cables will increase the capacitance due to the constant contact between the dielectrics of both legs. Spacing the legs apart by some distance will decrease capacitance but increase inductance until you reach that magic number where the spacing is too distant to have any significant effect. Therefore, zip cord (or 300 Ohm antenna lead or an AudioQuest Type 4, low end Monster, etc.) will have higher inductance and lower capacitance than a conventional twisted pair which will be rather high in capacitance by comparison. Until you separate the legs of the cable by distance you are always choosing which quality you can most easily abide by. More amplifiers are upset by higher capacitance than inductance and yet more cables are twisted pairs than parallel runs. Go figure. Assuming the output impedance of the amplifier is relatively low, the runs are kept to minimal lengths and the speakers is not highly reactive, a bit of capacitance and inductance is not a terrible thing in a speaker cable and somewhat negligible compared to what else is happening in the feedback loop of the amplifier. Interconnects can be somewhat more sensitive about this, however, interconnects suffer from their own problems and the capacitance and inductance of the cable can oftentimes be just the tip of the iceberg. . |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2364 Registered: May-06 | Nuck, Skewers are gone, the dogs' objections became too much to overcome. Hockey pucks abound as cable lifters now. My last magnet wire speaker wire was about 6" apart in their runs which reminds me I owe Chris H. a demo of them. Crappers. With interconnects I worked with JV's model and improvised slightly, substituting silver jeweler's wire, 28 gauge for the magnet wire for the negative feed. Also changed out the $4.95 RCA connectors for Eichmann Bullets. Un-effin'-believable what I had to spend on MIT Cables to best the DIY stuff. I blame JV for that too. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14808 Registered: Dec-04 | Any thought on the magnet wire for a balanced connection? Does the inherent rejection of the powered and shielded configuration make more standard Belkin or Canare cabling sufficient to the task? |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14726 Registered: May-04 | . A balanced cable done in the DIY style which MW and I have employed would require spacing of each leg by approximately 3" from any other. That would make for a cable 9" wide at minimum. That doesn't seem practical to me for several reasons. Further, there is no shield on these cables. A prime consideration for balanced lines (other than their ability to sustain long cable runs which these DIY items will not - keep the DIY's at a minimum length or not at all) is their inherent separation of the shield from the voltage carrying legs. By simply placing the hot, neutral and ground legs apart you've really only managed a very small benefit from "semi-balanced" cables. As I posted, unless there are serious issues with a cable, most equipment can abide a small amount of impedance in the interconnect. I would consider material selection to be far more important in most cables and to be of a higher priority than removing the shield and building an unruly cable. If you are unfamilair with the "sound" of various dielectrics and conductor materials, then I would place those two items as having more significance than the cables conductor lay out (which is pretty standardized in balanced cables) and get to doing some research on materials. Part of what makes the DIY cables successful IMO is the elimination of conventional dielectric and conventional conductor materials. If you cannot eliminate the dielectric material (which you cannot when buying Belden or Canare), then you need to be aware of its influence on the performance of the cable. A less important consideration in most instances would be a preference for solid core vs stranded conductors or a specific conductor material. The highest quality connector selection would be very high on my list of priorities. While the cheapo solderless RCA's were quite good on the DIY's the Eichmann's were excellent. The cost between the two would make me think about the importance of a specific cable within my system. I wouldn't even bother with anything more than the solderless RCA's on my tuner though MW felt he listened to his radio stations enough to warrant the inclusion of higher quality materials. Otherwise, most high end audio connectors are not much more than poorly performing jewelry meant to entice a buyer IMO. Excellent connectors exist in the market for not outrageous prices but most are not worth the time it takes to build the cable. (No need to ask which connectors I consider to be excellent as there is sufficient evidence on the web for which connectors are worth how much.) One of the things you buy with a "designer" cable is (hopefully) the designer's experience in listening to various materials, connectors and construction and possibly a treatment such as cryogenic freezing or Synergistic Research's treatment of their Tesla series of cables; http://www.synergisticresearch.com/ By doing the testing and listening you expect the designer to weed out the crap to come up with their concept of a good cable. So do not discount the benefits of investing in high quality cables from a respected manufacturer. MW found cables which he preferred to the DIY's. If your system is worth what you've put into the equipment, why scrimp on cables? Keep in mind who the intended market is for the materials you are selecting. If a cable or connector is built with rugged durability in a constantly repeated pro sound set up and tear down situation as their main selling point, then is that what is required for your installation? Why did Teac become the "go to" tape deck for travelling sound reinforcement? Because a roadie could drop it down two flights of stairs and then kick it to the truck where you would use it as a wheel chuck and it would still work in the exact same manner at the next venue. That isn't an indication it was the best sounding tape deck available and Teac was not the "go to" selection in high quality permanent studio installations. The same sort of thinking should apply IMO to any home audio system proposing a commercial product be inserted into the signal chain. . |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14727 Registered: May-04 | . "oh I know magnet wire works well. What gauge, Jan?" What it takes. Sorry, no better answer IMO. I am not in favor of more copper than is required by the specific situation. To me this insistance on 10AWG speaker cables is rather absurd. No amplifier which could begin to supply current in the amount specified for a 10AWG cable would do so for the extended time periods and at the voltage for which a 10AWG cable is intended. As Nuck and MW have said, they have seen very thin cables deal with the output of a 300 watt McIntosh amplifier which is activating its Power Guard circuits without any apparent issues. No solid state amplifier should find significant benefits in even 14-16 AWG cables when it comes to lowering the impedance of the cable in a typical home audio installation running to the main speakers. No tube based power amplifier would begin to produce the sort of amperage that would call for a low guage conductor. At least that's my opinion. It's definitely a man thing to like those thick cables and I'm not here to argue Freudian symbols. My speaker runs are very short and feed to a single driver with a relatively constant impedance. I use the least amount of copper my ears tell me is correct and the numbers say isn't out of line. The more you increase the output impedance of the circuit (which includes the amplifier and the cable), the more you will get in frequency deviation should there be a highly reactive load at the speaker. Most solid state amplifiers have such low inherent output impedance numbers there simply is no real world benefit in minimizing the cable resistance beyond a certain point. . |
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