Archive through January 29, 2010
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2806 Registered: Nov-05 | Well, today I decided to do a comaprison test between the Rega Saturn and a mystery player that is a third of the price here and I must say I am rather shocked by my findings. The gear is a Parasound P3 pre amp, a pair of Xindak XA8800mn mono block amps, and a pair of Quad 22l floorstanding speakers. The interconnects from the Saturn to the Direct 1 input of the p3 are AQ Columbia and from the mystery player to the Direct 2 input, Chord Cobra i/c's. The same test discs played simultaneously in synch on both players and were Diana Krall's "Girl In The Other Room". From the listening position I would listen and switch between players. The direct 1 and direct 2 inputs are similar and being the shortest path exclude tone controls. So all things are equal except the interconnects with the Saturn having, in my opinion, the slightly superior pair. All synched and ready to play, I hit start on both players and Ms Krall opened the set on the Saturn with "Stop This World". Ah yes, very, very nice. After about a minute I switched to Direct 2 and the mystery player took control. Whaoah! What the heck! Did I switch inputs correctly? Yep, Ms Krall was performing through Direct 2, the mystery player. Needless to say, I felt somewhat dumfounded, For the remainder of the album I sat there switching back and forth and honestly, sometimes I had to look to confirm which player I was listening to. Before I go any further, yes, the volume was equal with both players in the system. I found myself concentrating quite hard to pick the differences. Clayton and McBride's bass came through with the same depth and control with both machines, Ms Krall's vocals seemed quite similar with neither player accentuating her inflections. The piano seemed to resonate a little more in the upper registers with the mystery player and the snare and cymbals as each of both drummers did their thing on different tracks seemed slightly more accentuated with the mystery player. I also founf it quite disheartening that the mystery player seemed to have that magical PrAt like the Saturn. I was beginning to get annoyed - (a) by the fact that a player a third of the cost of the Saturn was giving the player a heck of a run for the money and (b) how in hell does this, until recently obscure, brand compete so well with the much lauded Saturn. Okay, so what's the conclusion? I am giving the nod to the Saturn not because it cost so much more that I have to find redemption for such extravagence, but because of the fact that overall, the Saturn portayed the performance with a darker background and a smoothness that I found more comfortable with. But heck, only by a few whiskers! I know we pay dearly for small increments in quality in this strange pastime, but I really would have expected much more of a difference considering the price difference in these players. Now, what's even more astonishing is that the mystery player is actually a universal bluray player. And you are all thinking that it's the Oppo BD-83 SE aren't you? Well it isn't. It's my standard Oppo BD-83 which also excells with Bluray, DVD's and plays SACD's, DVD-A in both stereo and multichannel. To be quite honest, this test has me feeling a little down. The SE version must be really something. Using the same devices and comparison set up, I played the stereo SACD of DK's "When I Look In Your Eyes" on the Oppo and the CD version on the Saturn. It was a shorter test, but I found the Oppo was now only about one whisker behind the Rega. I am seriously wondering whether or not I sell both the Saturn and the Oppo and get an SE (if I can't get the upgrade). But I think the losses will prevent that from happening. Who knows? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 467 Registered: Dec-06 | Lots of hype around that Oppo, for sure. When I compared my Saturn to my old Marantz DV7001 (which did a nice job), the Rega was clearly superior and I felt it wasn't really all that close. I have the Cambridge BD650. Haven't really had a chance to listen to it yet, but I am eager to hear how it stacks up against the Saturn. I think the Oppo is more highly regarded than the CA, at least from the posts I've read. The players are similar in many regards but the Oppo supposedly has the superior DAC. I like Cambridge though, I felt like the quality will be there even if it's a shade less than the BD-83, and it matches my CA 550T tuner too. Did anyone here read Soundstage's review of the NAD C565? The reviewer pretty much said it was right there with his $6,500 SimAudio CDP. Maybe CD players are now at that stage where the audio quality has hit a bit of a plateau and is starting to filter down into some of the newest budget players. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2272 Registered: May-06 | M.R. Did you try to to run the test again using the duplicate Krall CDs with the IC's swapped? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3523 Registered: Feb-07 | Good point Mike. Maybe that'll give the Oppo the slight edge to achieve parity with the Saturn. Interesting read M.R.! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2931 Registered: Jun-07 | Very interesting. Rip the tops off M.R. I expect the Saturn to be a Oppo rebadge.LOL!! Just kidding. The one thing about blu ray players is that they are coming with rock solid DAC's and Lasers in them. Blu Ray music on the horizon people? Dan - I have read like five reviews on the new NAD C565 and they all seem to say the same thing that its the best in its class by a large margin. Interesting as well. It even got breakthrough product of the year by two reputable reviewers now. Not that reviews mean much but its fun to read sometimes. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 387 Registered: Aug-04 | I wonder if the Parasound P3 played a factor in this test you did, M.R. ? Or maybe not. Interesting nonetheless. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2809 Registered: Nov-05 | No guys, I didn't swap the i/c's - I really wasn't game. Lol! I may give that a try next week - or today if time permits. NMT, well, yes the P3 was a factor, it was the pre amp in the test as in my normal listening, so I'm not sure what you mean. Would a different pre change the outcome of the test or make the sonic differences narrower or wider?. I don't know - I can't see how. It's quite a good pre, though not high end I know. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 388 Registered: Aug-04 | MR, I meant no offense. But it's possible that the P3 is not getting the best from the Saturn. That's all. Wasn't trying to insult or offend your preamp. Was just thinking. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2810 Registered: Nov-05 | No NMT, I didn't think you were. Just wasn't sure of your meaning. Whether or not the difference gap would change with another pre, I just don't know. But any improvement from a better pre would benefit both players I would think. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14380 Registered: Dec-04 | That is getting pretty specific in matching, looking for a preamp. The Rega is non-specific, as I have heard anyhow, and the Oppo is very quiet by all accounts, as well as what I heard from the standard version. Nothing wrong there, which pretty much sums it up. How many beans for the refit, MR? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2811 Registered: Nov-05 | I don't know yet Nuck, the importer here has no clue as to when and if they provide the upgrade kits. I emailed Oppo and they replied with a "'don't know" as well. I'm on his "interested" list so it's wait and see. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14384 Registered: Dec-04 | please stand by... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2813 Registered: Nov-05 | Horror or horrors! This is going to seem sacreligious, but my ears tell me, that with swapping the i/c's, I cannot differentiate between the BD-83 and the Saturn. I'm going to test this with my wife over the weekend, but to say this has all left me feeling a little flat is an understatement. If I continue to believe this discovery holds up, I may sell the Saturn - I mean what's the point in tying up all that cash if there's no discernable difference in sq between the two. Very disheartened - Oppo have certainly made a brilliant player. As for the SE version, well I wonder how much better it may be? Just added: I've been reading a few reviews mainly to read what is said about cd playback. Some say fair, some say very good. Okay then, is it my ears or is it my Saturn has a problem? Maybe it's that our Oppo has been well run in and some reviewers have not run theirs in enough before testing. I don't know. I'm at a loss about this comparison. |
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Gold Member Username: Mike3Wylie, Tx USA Post Number: 2275 Registered: May-06 | It's your room and set up. It caps the ability of your system to perform therefore with the Saturn being capped it was not that difficult for the Oppo to match it. Ok, I am sort of kidding. I do now know that my room and power had more to do with my kit than my kit itself so to speak. I know you have solved your power issues but still compromise in terms of WAF. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2814 Registered: Nov-05 | Maybe so Mike, but if the room handicaps the Saturn, then it must handicap the Oppo as well. At least that's what my logic tells me. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 469 Registered: Dec-06 | Does the Oppo have dual DACs? I've been wondering about dual vs. single lately. What's the advantage of dual DACs vs. a single DAC? Far as I can figure, each DAC processes one channel. So in processing one channel there is less for a DAC to do than if it had to process two. But this leads to the question, does a one DAC player ever really have an issue processing two channels? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2815 Registered: Nov-05 | Dan, there are single dac's, stereo dac's, multi-channel dac's etc - they can be doubled, quadrupled, dual deferential mono mode and so on. The Saturn has two woflsen dac's in dual deferential mode, the BD-83 and one Cirrus dac for stereo only and a Cirrus mc dac for multi channel. The SE version has 4 sabre dacs each channel for stereo and one Sabre mc for multichannel - The Sabre's used are from ESS. However, while they play a major part, there's more to making a decent player than simply the dacs. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14366 Registered: May-04 | . " ... if the room handicaps the Saturn, then it must handicap the Oppo as well. At least that's what my logic tells me." Your logic is faulty. If the Saturn is capable of more width and depth to the soundstaging with more three dimensionality to the image than the Oppo can manage, then a room that constricts the Saturn is going to have far more effect on its abilities than on the lesser player. Should the Saturn be capable of more impactful and tuneful bass a poor room, less than ideal set up or lack of proper ancillary equipment will place a cap on the player's abilities to impress. So on and so on. If you took a high performance sports car and replaced the O.E.M. wheels and tires with something more suited to a compact economy model, what effect would you think it would have on the car's performance? If then you judged cornering between the two vehicles, would they not be on more equal footings so to speak? Using the photography analogy common to audio, if you replaced the stock lens on a top o' the line Cannon with a poor substitute with inadequate focussing power and off color renditions, would you not change its specified performance? Making a comparison to a decent point and shoot where ultimate fidelity is normally compromised by many budgetary factors would yield a more narrow gap in performance between it and the modified Cannon. The system can only be as good as the set up. That is the point of many of the aftermarket devices and alterations listeners make to their systems. Years ago Jimmy Hughes writing for the British magazine HiFi Answers stirred up a hornet's nest by reporting his highly modified and highly controversial Yamaha A400 integrated amplifier to be the equal to or better than virtually any other audio amplifier he had auditioned at any price. JH was no dolt, he was a well respected reviewer and his comments eventually led to a ban on reviewing many alternative treatments that fell outside of the more conventional cable and footer assignments. Recently, in Stereophile, Robert Duetsch had a column regarding "sharpeners" and "levelers". Sharpeners tend to (in RD's words) "exagerate" small differences, conflating them into sometimes "jaw dropping" improvements. Levelers, on the other hand, do not pick up on sometimes obvious alterations. While most of us waffle between sharpening and leveling as the ocassion permits, most of us fall into one of the two categories or along a continuum that exists between the two extremes. http://stereophile.com/asweseeit/are_you_a_sharpener_or_a_leveler/ There is nothing that says operating as one or the other is good or bad, but operate as one or the other we all do at all times. No matter the set up and associated equipment, if the Saturn was performing its magic in areas you do not have as a priority, Rantz, then you simply would not have paid attention to what it was doing. Having seen pictures of your room and set up I would say there are items you value that I do not and items that MW values that you do not. If these are the areas where the Rega outclasses the Oppo, then you simply would never really know the difference existed. None of this is to suggest the Oppo is not a very fine player that resets the bar for digital playback. By all accounts it is and while digital moves forward at an often snail's pace, the adjustment to new thinking and new components which reflect that thinking should hardly be a discouragement. Should you compare a ten year old player to today's players I would think you would find a generally higher standard of performance in the current crop - if you were operating in a sharpening mode. Why should that discourage you? Because you thought you had a high value player and now it is being challenged by the young upstart? That is how life works. At one time the Rega was the giant killer and in many ways still is. A new David on the horizon should not be discouraging. . |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 470 Registered: Dec-06 | But would you say there is any inherent advantage to using two DACs? All things being equal, is two better than one? If Rega did nothing but add another DAC to the Apollo, would it be a better player? How much better? I've tried to find an answer online with some brief Google searches, but all I've managed to find are comments that two DACs are superior to one without any explanation as to why. |
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Gold Member Username: Stu_pittIrvington, New York USA Post Number: 3622 Registered: May-05 | Somewhere in the Bryston Circle of Audio Circle, James Tanner spoke about why they used 2 DACs pre channel. It had to due with noise cancellation and a few other things. According to him, they also found that the DAC doesn't make nearly as much difference as they thought it would. Power supply and regulation and output devices played a far larger role in the sound quality than which DAC chips they used. The Saturn uses more thaings than just a extra DAC chip. Not sure about exactly what, but I think it has different power supplies and output devices. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14369 Registered: May-04 | Right, the addition of a DAC without any further modifications is nothing more than a fifth wheel on your car. The reason you can't find much information is that you probably are not asking the right question of the right people. One reason to keep up to date through the magazines is having access to industry news and interviews with the people who make these things work. Not that a subscription alone will answer your question but you might find more to it than you suspect. Taking an existing model such as the Apollo and modifying its basic circuits to build the Saturn becomes more than just adding more parts. If the intent of the additional converter is to minimize crosstalk between channels, then you'll also need a more well organized and possibly larger power supply, the power supply will then require more stages of regulation all of which will require some degree of better heatsinking to accomodate the additional components placed within the Apollo sized enclosure. If you've improved the DAC's by going to multiples, then you'll need a better analog output stage to make the most of the improved DAC's. For balanced outputs you would certainly want dual differential combinations rather than compromising the grounding plane of a single DAC. Some manufacturers might even go to the trouble of having different DAC's for unbalanced and balanced outputs. How the designer chooses to implement the converters will make for different solutions to the modifications. "Does this DAC make my bu++ look fat?", is a question you might as well ask as there is no one simple answer that won't lead to more questions. http://www.stereophile.com/budgetcomponents/ cambridge_audio_azur_dacmagic_da_converter/index2.html |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 769 Registered: Oct-07 | Jan, using the photography analogy again:: I have always recommended a lesser camera body and BETTER glass when budget was constrained. Most people limit there enlargement size so pixel count is less important. Besides, the lens you buy should last thru several camera bodies. It is downstream during what photographers call 'workflow' that other things happen....same as the rest of the electronics chain. Pre / amp / speakers. To steal a phrase from audio: Source First. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14371 Registered: May-04 | . And by using an extension of that logic, everything that occurs in the digital playback chain is dependent upon what happens within the transport area. Not neccesarily at the laser/pit level but certainly within the area. For the sharpeners in the world it has been proven that making alterations in the first stages of playback, active or passive changes, will influence the SQ. For the true sharpeners it has been proven making alterations to the listening environment which in no way affect the signal proper can make profound changes in perception. A sharpener of a certain variety might think the Oppo designer has employed some alternative devices and treatments that have the ability to raise the level of perception much like Jimmy Hughes modifed his $400 Yamaha integrated. I doubt any mainstream designer would admit to such things but it would be interesting to find out Oppo employs items such as the Clever Little Clock, Codename Turquoise or some Brilliant Pebble devices in their player. http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina41.htm http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina34.htm http://www.machinadynamica.com/machina31.htm  I can attest to the concept of modifying the color of the tray and transport lid in the Rega player to enhance its performance. I know MW would second the thought. What if each Oppo has been frozen and thawed before shipping? . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14390 Registered: Dec-04 | Then it would have made a transport trip to Canada. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2817 Registered: Nov-05 | JV I appreciate the advice and the analogies, and I can go along with them, although in some ways you are preaching to the converted. I know my room and set up is not ideal, but that's the way it is unfortunately. Mike has a dedicated room and good luck to him and I do not know your room except for titbits of past info. However I have been thinking about what has changed because the fact remains that I could define improvement in sound to various degrees when I brought the Saturn home compared to previous players namely, the Apollo SE, Apollo, NAD C542 and even the Marantz DV-9500. What has changed is the P3 and the Xindak Monos. Ultimately I will move the gear to the front of the room and have the monos closer to the speakers using shorter cable, but I need new furinture to do that and it won't come cheap. Secondly, I read a review where balanced cables were used from the P3 to amp and the reviewer was less than impressed. The unbalanced cables gave him a better result. However when changing amps, he had a better result with the balanced cables. So, as soon as I have time I will exchange the balanced cables with rca's and see what happens. If that doesn't yield better results then I'll have to wait for new furniture is affordable and move the gear and set up the monos as they should be before making any rash decisions. Any other advice, I'm all ears. |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14375 Registered: May-04 | . "However I have been thinking about what has changed because the fact remains that I could define improvement in sound to various degrees when I brought the Saturn home compared to previous players namely, the Apollo SE, Apollo, NAD C542 and even the Marantz DV-9500" I didn't say you can't hear at all, I suggested you have priorities just as do the rest of us. The Saturn is quite a machine and it responds well to a user who pays attention to all the details. If you return to the automotive analogy, modifying a Corvette will yield more impressive results than would modifying the same engine detuned to fit in a Malibu. Yet, if your modifications turn out a product that excels at values which are not within your priorities, then you won't hear the final result. The end result is your set up and attention to detail limit what is available from the Saturn. Additionally, if its performance is superior to the Oppo in ways you don't pay attention to, then you will be leveling the differences between the two players. We tend to "tweak" to get what we are after. Even after your move, there is a good chance the Saturn will still be better in some ways but they won't matter to you. And I wouldn't doubt the Oppo is a very good player by all accounts. . |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 471 Registered: Dec-06 | Thanks for the explanation Stu, and the more elaborate one Jan. I didn't pose the question to anyone else (just in this thread). I was merely searching online to see if it was addressed anywhere. But I understand now why higher end players use two. |
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Silver Member Username: LamcamOrange County, CA USA Post Number: 169 Registered: Nov-07 | MR, maybe Rega sound is not for you. Why don't you try other brands? Such as Ayre, Bryston, Cary,... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2819 Registered: Nov-05 | Just quickly: Loc - (a) I like the Saturn's sound and (b) can't afford the others :-) Edit: and I tried the Cary P1 - it was very nice, but I preferred the Rega. I'm about to to some cable changes. We'll see . . . |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14394 Registered: Dec-04 | If the dealer here ever answers my messages, I should soon have the SE to try. Seem rare as hen's teeth in these parts. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2821 Registered: Nov-05 | Before changing the balanced cables to rca's, I performed the same listening test with the Krall cd for my wife. The difference being, I was the one switching players (inputs) while she listened intently with closed eyes. She too had a hard time in distinguishing which player was active. I asked her if she had to pick a winner out of the two to let me know. Incredibly, she picked the Oppo. Her bags are packed. Lol! I could understand her decision, it seems the Oppo has a slightly more forward treble (and I do mean ever so slightly) which seems gives the sound a bit more expanse. However, I think the Saturn has slightly more accurate imaging, a more defined soundstage and as I've previously said when using the original cables, a slightly darker background and smoothness. But sonically the difference is extremely minute. Next I replace the balanced cables (Zindak) with a pair of VDH rca's between the pre and mono blocs. Set the two players spinning and . . . no sound. Checked connections, input settings - everything seemed right. Ah, I thought, there would be a switch on the P3 to change outputs. No, that wasn't it. And then stupid here remembered the switches on the rear of the mono blocks and all was right. The difference - not a lot but to me it seemed to tidy up the sound stage even more, and I decided there was something else in the sound that made me prefer it with the rca's, but I can't quite put my finger on it. The bottom line is it made no impact on actual difference between the two players for either of us. NMT might be right - maybe it could be the P3 is the spanner in the works. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2836 Registered: Nov-05 | I'm reassessing my findings here. Maybe I have gone about this comparison the wrong way. synchronising the tracks and switching back and forth is most likey going to show similarities in sound quality, but maybe not musicality. When I find the time I'm going to select some favourite tracks and have a session with the Oppo and then a session with the Saturn - or vice versa. Will report back. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11884 Registered: Feb-05 | Good thinking. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 780 Registered: Oct-07 | 98% of the audio performance +all the video stuff for what? 20% of the price of the Saturn. That's a reasonable trade, in my book... FWIW, the Mogami balanced on my CA player are much better than the throw away RCA's the player came with. To be expected. Never tried any upgrade RCA. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3541 Registered: Feb-07 | I would have to agree with you Leo. Where did you buy the Mogami cables from? |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 781 Registered: Oct-07 | Mogami from Guitar Center. Since California would like to BELIEVE that it is the center of the guitar playing universe, it is an extensive chain with an amazing selection. If I ever needed 'pro' gear that's where I'd start. And, as an aside, if I could cash out my CA 840 and my OPPO DV981 for what it takes to buy an OPPO SE, it'd be done tomorrow. Save space, near-zero performance compromise, add BR functionality What's not to like? |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3543 Registered: Feb-07 | I'm tempted too Leo. I'd relegate my Sony BDP to rec-room duty. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 782 Registered: Oct-07 | I'm a single system guy. At least for serious hifi purposes. Table radio, a Tivoli #1, in garage and a real good SW portable are my only concessions. Bedroom has the worlds CHEAPEST dvd player and BR #2 has a VCR/DVD combo player. Shows how much THOSE systems are used. I'd KILL for a RecRoom. I have 100$ worth of Bottlesen darts and no place to put my dartboard. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3544 Registered: Feb-07 | What's a "VCR"? My rec-room has my McIntosh gear in there, so no darts are to be thrown in that room. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2839 Registered: Nov-05 | The rca cables beat the balanced ones I believe because of impedence matching between the pre and monos. Or Xindak made a krap cable - which I doubt if the amps are anything to go by. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 786 Registered: Oct-07 | Doh! |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2840 Registered: Nov-05 | a deer, a female deer . . . |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 787 Registered: Oct-07 | I think the Xindak balanced cable is a rebadged Monster. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 399 Registered: Aug-04 | The Oppo is palpable |
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Platinum Member Username: Jan_b_vigneDallas, TX Post Number: 14432 Registered: May-04 | . Particularly if it falls on your foot. |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 400 Registered: Aug-04 | My foot is malleable |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3554 Registered: Feb-07 | Wear steel toed boots when moving gear. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 796 Registered: Oct-07 | Wow, I'm out of smart alec comebacks for now! Seeing the 'p' word in print makes me want to go into the other room and retch. On a serious note, How much is my CA840 and OPPO worth? Would it fund a 83SE? or at least 80% of said upgrade? I've gotten 3.5" of rain in the last 6 days and am waiting for my backyard slope to enter my living room. I've turned the Sub off until it dries out a bit. No tempting fate! |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11900 Registered: Feb-05 | The rain sounded so real it was....pal_____. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 804 Registered: Oct-07 | Yeah, Art, laugh it up. California drivers are nutty. It's like bumper cars when the rain starts. I've had people ZOOM by me, on the freeway, in fog so thick I couldn't see past the end of the hood. And I was doing 60. The heck with the 'p' word. I got woke up out of a deep sleep last nite by a rain squall blowing thru. It sounded like a train going by. I rained again today so the total here in north SanDiego county must be over 4 inches with the latest round of rain due to end sometime tomorrow. The sun is out now, for a few minutes. It's a trick. This is the only place I've ever lived with bullet proof and waterproof dirt. I dug holes for fence posts and filled 'em with water to 'soften it up'. no dice. Water level didn't drop 20mm in 2 days. To call this stuff 'clay' is to redefine the word. Awful, hard, waterproof and even prone to the odd sinkhole. Even Gophers won't have it. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11923 Registered: Feb-05 | Not so much here, Leo. We're always drenched but are just about at the saturation point now. We've been blasted by 3 wind storms in 2 weeks. I was out cleaning up after the latest one this afternoon. At least there were no more late this week, and no more predicted. Y'all in Southern California have been soaked...stay dry and safe! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14435 Registered: Dec-04 | The Oppo is in the house, now warming fom the deepfreeze first inflicted upon it. The player is in the garage as an in between, a spot in the fridge is next. Anotherday at ambient and good to go! |
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Silver Member Username: NmytreePost Number: 401 Registered: Aug-04 | We've been getting a lot of rain here too, Leo. Over the last year we have had some major rainfall and yeah........we get those rain/wind storms with that freight train howl. It's something. Weird thing is, I love the sound of a good rain storm. It soothes me and calms me. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 808 Registered: Oct-07 | Nuck, sounds like a job for class 'a'. You already know, but watch that condensation. I like weather too. I want to go to Arizona / Grand Canyon and do some lightning photography. I'll be sure to bring my 9 iron. Ground around my house simply can't hold more water. I went to the ocean today for a look. 40mph winds right off the water were kicking up quite a sandstorm and the ocean was brown for about 200 feet from the crumby runoff. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11937 Registered: Feb-05 | My wife and I were at the the coast last week for our anniversary and on the morning we left a big storm blew in with gusts at the headland of 100 mph +. We stepped out of the car several times just to experience it. The rain hitting my face felt like a sandblaster...not like I don't need it...just sayin'. Today is a gorgeous sunny day...however I can see the next storm at the coast range, ready to hit the valley at nightfall. More heavy rain tomorrow... |
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Gold Member Username: Jazzman71Phoenix, AZ USA Post Number: 1076 Registered: Dec-07 | I hear you Leo. Even after the trip across the mountains and over the desert those storms still had quite a punch when they got here. My wife said 4-1/2 inches in the rain gage, basically over three days. I don't know exactly, but I think that's about 60% of our annual rainfall! |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14447 Registered: Dec-04 | After cycling the temp,the SE is out of the box andinto the kit. From ambient and no warmup , the Apollo is passe. The Oppo is warming as I write, so I have subjected it to the worst possible treatment, without dropping it. This player has a lot of energy. Opening with the whole of Bonnie Raitt, all should be warm for some prersonal ref stuff. Uh Huh |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 812 Registered: Oct-07 | one of the, if not THE first question I asked on these forums was if a universal player could be made to be both musical, getting that part right and a video machine. I was told nope, doesn't exist and that it may not ever be possible due to technical differences between video and audio. Seems we are closer to that previously unrealized ideal. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14451 Registered: Dec-04 | The BD83 SE took the Apollo's lunch money and is still warming up. This player is as advertized.... |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14452 Registered: Dec-04 | N.B. At this point, the Oppo is fairly resolute on what should and should not sound good. There seems to be no middle ground. Play EC's '24 nights' cd, and just enjoy! Play Van Halen and take your chances... |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2860 Registered: Nov-05 | Interesting Nuck. Look forward to more assessment. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3163 Registered: Oct-04 | I raised the question a while back and got pounced on pretty good for suggesting there is no reason why a competently built UNIVERSAL DVD/CD PLAYER (at the time I was asking about my Marantz DV7600) couldn't perform as well as a similarly well designed CD ONLY PLAYER. Between the review of the standard Oppo BDP-83 & Nuck's initial impressions of the SE, I feel somewhat vindicated. It will be interesting to see how Oppo's just announced $289 BDP-80 stacks-up against the competition? |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2942 Registered: Jun-07 | Good call Chris. You absolutely should feel vindicated indeed. Sounds like these Oppo units are going to grow in popularity very very quickly. Oppo has always made one of the best universal players IMO. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3164 Registered: Oct-04 | Oppo's claim to fame was that their initial units did what they did on a budget; the BDP-83SE is a $900 player (right?), which isn't exactly cheap IMHO, but still less than top-shelf players from the likes of Rega & Naim. If Oppo has set high-fidelity audio as a design objective, I don't see a reason why their entire product line can't continue to exceed expectations and still be done on a budget. It would be interesting to see what price they could build a world-class CD ONLY PLAYER? I'm assuming the drive, gizmos, and licensing (do they have to do that?) would be quite a bit less than building a BDP or even DVD? Would a sub $100 player be out of the question? |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 493 Registered: Dec-06 | I think if you buy a CD only player that costs $1,000, that there is every reason to expect it should be better than a $900 universal player. Let alone buying a CD only player like the Saturn for $2,500. The Saturn is built like a tank, and no money is put into video and audio playback of other formats. All the money is put into CD audio playback. I'm not making any proclamations here, this just seems logical. For the record, I thought my Marantz DV7001 did a nice job. It was better than my Arcam DV135 (another universal player) but I didn't think it was even close to beating the Saturn. However, from most user comments it seems like the Oppo is a bit of a game changer. I think I mentioned the glowing review of the NAD C565 in this thread, where the reviewer compared favorably it to a $6,000 Simaudio CD only player. Perhaps CD player technology and build know-how has now matured to the point where if you buy a new modestly priced player that is well built it can compete with much more expensive players. Not unlike cars, where features and technological enhancements that first appear in luxury models eventually trickle down to cars like the Civic and Focus. I will compare my CA 650BD player to my Saturn in the coming weeks...looking forward to it. If CA is on their game then the 650BD should be at close to the Oppo's level and perhaps by all accounts should come pretty close to the Saturn????? |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3165 Registered: Oct-04 | No doubt Oppo is doing something right; it makes you wonder how a company can seemingly come out of nowhere and pummel (or at least go toe to toe with) the 800-gorillas of the industry? To my ears, the line between mid-fi & hi-fi is very muddy, I really feel you need to jump way into the very high-end to make categorical statements about SQ, and to date, I haven't come across a $1K+ disc-player that has floored me, and there are just too many killer budget players in the sub-$1K market to justify the leap, at least in my case. I think we are in the last days of mass-market disc players, I give them less than 5-years before they go the way of the VCR. Boutique players will stick around for quite a bit longer, much as turntables have. Are VCRs still made??? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2862 Registered: Nov-05 | CM, I wouldn't feel vindicated just yet. You are not comparing apples with apples. A universal player and a universal Bluray player are different - mainly the blue light laser. Apparantly there are some advantages to that. I had a Marantz DV-9500, a NAD M55, a Denon 2900 & 3910 and all were sub-standard in the area of cd playback compared to players such as the Naim 5i and Apollo. These were quite expensive - about 3 times that of the Oppo BD-83 SE. The thing is, I find even the standard BD-83 is quite amazing for cd's. I heard the Pioneer Bluray player is also quite good as a cdp. The others I woudn't know. I had a couple of Panasonics but never tried cd's in them. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11949 Registered: Feb-05 | I've owned some very well regarded universal players by Marantz, Denon and Oppo and none of them were as good with redbook playback as my NAD C542, let alone the Apollo or Saturn. The new Oppo would be an exception and the jury is still out with that. The Saturn in my system sounds good with every disc I throw at it, we'll see if the Oppo can match that. If it can then I will look to hear it in my system and see if I agree. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 494 Registered: Dec-06 | Chris, apparently the last Sony Betamax was made in 2002. The last JVC VHS player was made in 2008. DVD+VHS combo players are still being made.* I think Beta was the superior format in terms of quality, and from what I've seen in the past professional users (like TV stations) used Beta over VHS. We used to have a Betamax and replaced it with a VHS in the early '90s that was ten years newer, and the Betamax video quality was clearly superior. Both players were made by Sony. DVD players are going to be gone soon too. It's one reason why I decided to sell my Marantz DV7001 so quickly, and use the proceeds to buy the CA Blu Ray player. Even though I don't need Blu Ray yet (don't have a high def TV), had I waited I surely wouldn't have gotten the money that I did for the Marantz. I was actually going to buy an Oppo, that's until CA announced their player this past summer/fall. *from wikipedia |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2943 Registered: Jun-07 | M.R makes a great point. The lasers in DVD players are usually sub par at best. The lasers in the blu ray technology are the best ever. So who knows what possibilities blu ray players could bring. Let alone the technology blu ray has to offer. Chris- I agree. Five years might be stretching it. But eventually its going to happen. Weather we like it or not, it wont matter. |
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Gold Member Username: DmitchellOttawa, Ontario Canada Post Number: 3586 Registered: Feb-07 | That got me thinking too Nick. I listen to CDs sometimes on my HT system with the Sony BDP-S550, and it sounds actually quite good. |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11950 Registered: Feb-05 | Makes me wonder too...interesting huh guys! |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2944 Registered: Jun-07 | Definitely Art and David. The blu-ray laser technology has the ability to read more data and do it faster than any technology before it. By a far margin too. Once the media can catch up to the technology??... wholly crap, watch out as blu ray will crush anything cd has to offer when it comes to SQ. Throw in the fact that the single player can also play blu ray movies and decode new audio formats? lol Whats not to like about that. Ok Art time to bring the blu ray player into the big rig. lol. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3166 Registered: Oct-04 | "Once the media can catch up to the technology??... wholly crap, watch out as blu ray will crush anything cd has to offer when it comes to SQ." I think solid-state will take over before that gets a chance to happen. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2945 Registered: Jun-07 | I think Blu Ray technology and solid state will collide. Media Centers, Music Servers, Media Extenders, will all come equipped with Blu Ray laser technology. If solid state takes over then the decoding of the audio will be in blu ray HD audio formats. Solid state will take over but in the form of a Hard Drive. What comes off the hard drive must be played as well as if it were to come from a Blu Ray disc. This means the audio formats and high res video that Blu Ray brought us will still be around for a long time hopefully. The technology that Blu Ray has brought is endless. Not only in the hardware side, but especially in the media end. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2946 Registered: Jun-07 | Overall I think Blu Ray Music takes over in 3 years. Solid state takes over in 10. Just a prediction. Could be way off.lol. Hey at least I was right about blu ray. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3167 Registered: Oct-04 | Moving parts are a PIA, so I'm thinking chip mem is the route any audiophile-grade server will go. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2947 Registered: Jun-07 | Solid State Hard Drives. Now out. Very expensive, but will kill regular hard drive state in the next two years. Chip memory is a high possibility too. Most likely SD card, the most popular. Even with USB 3.0 hitting the market in the next year or so and USB thumb drives growing in size rapidly they could even be a contender?lol Who knows. We just got in a 30 gig USB thumb drive in at work yesterday. I remember just 7 years ago when I was working at a local Staples while going to college selling 256mb thumb drives for 100 dollars.lol. My cost on a 30 gig one is 48 dollars. Thats a lot of uncompressed music. About 25 albums roughly. |
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Silver Member Username: KbearCanada Post Number: 495 Registered: Dec-06 | If the blue laser is enough to make a universal player compete with more expensive standalone CD players while reading data from a CD, then surely companies like Rega and Naim must begin to use it in their CD players. If the Apollo or Saturn used this laser then we'd be comparing apples to apples again. A Rega with a blue laser should be superior to any universal Blu Ray player, since any SQ difference will come down to things like design and build quality. The way they have in the past when comparing a universal DVD player to a dedicated CD player, and the way they should when comparing a more expensive piece to a cheaper one. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 814 Registered: Oct-07 | Stand alone CD or DVD or BR players demise will be based on a couple of things. Really cheap mass storage. Even cheaper than today. And it must be more reliable than hard drives. Also, You will need a Really Fast internet connection. If you want a movie, it'll download tonight and be ready any time later for viewing. But, this will require a really big pipe to the house. Not quite 'on demand' but close enough. Those are just a couple technical issues. Once the $$$ boys get involved, no telling. These will be the children of the people who were AGAINST the renting of VHS movies, so you know how stupid they gotta be. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 778 Registered: Jul-07 | "On demand" video is already here Leo. Whether that's the VOD offering from your local cable company, or something like Apple TV. I have the Apple TV unit and I only wait about 60 seconds from the time I order the movie to the time I start watching it.....in HD. I have 15 meg service to the house, so obviously if your service is slower you may need a wider gap from order to view. We'll have even higher speeds available this year, and you'll start to see 30, 50, even 100 meg services from the major ISP's....but perhaps capped with some usage charges above a certain threshold. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 815 Registered: Oct-07 | Sure, fast symetrical up/down are available. But nowhere universal or fast enough to dent stand alone players. Yes, I know 'on demand' is available. Tell that to someone with 3meg ADSL or even Dialup. Here in SoCal, some areas have fiber optic right to the house. This is massively fast, but you have to put up with Verizon to get it. Right after the telecom boom went BOOM, there was so much extra capacity it was literally getting buried. Now, do you want to trust your 100 movie collection to a hard drive? Even a RAID system? There are still many technical and perhaps more importantly, Political hurdles before I junk out my hardware. not me. I'll wait a couple more years. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2948 Registered: Jun-07 | I'll trust it as long as I build it. lol. Wait until solid state hdd's come down Leo. like 2500 dollars for a 80 gig one right now. Yikes. I got my hardware, my hard drive, and my FTP all loaded with the same material. I am safe for now. Unless all three somehow fail.LOL! New Raid 10 with a solid state hard drive is almost impossible to break. Unless you drove over it. Two years Leo. Two years bud. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3168 Registered: Oct-04 | Blu-ray discs are going to be very hard to beat for some time to come in terms of cost/GB ratio. |
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Gold Member Username: Nickelbut10Post Number: 2949 Registered: Jun-07 | Very True. |
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Gold Member Username: ExerciseguyFort Hamilton, NY United States Post Number: 3169 Registered: Oct-04 | I wonder if/when we will see entire lossless music collections released on a single blu-ray disc? |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 779 Registered: Jul-07 | "Now, do you want to trust your 100 movie collection to a hard drive? " You wouldn't necessarily have to. That's the beauty of on demand systems. You aren't housing the content, you just watch the movie when you want to. More and more the content will be free, but you pay for the "rental" for those that are not. After rebuying movies in a couple of different formats, I'm not making the same mistake again. I'll pay the $3.99 whenever I want to watch something (assuming it's not free content) and let someone else worry about storing it, backing it up, and what the next new format will be. I figured it out that I'd have to rent the movie at least 5 times to break even, and there aren't that many movies I'd watch more than that. As Nick mentions, disk space will become more reliable and cheaper so even storing your own content will become less and less an issue. Now, at some point it wouldn't surprise me if the "on demand" concept gets picked up on the audio front more than it has. You may have to pay a flat fee to access content libraries....some perhaps bigger than Arts....but the beauty of the model is you have access to just about anything, as opposed to having to build your own collection....which is a huge investment.....and then the world changes formats on you. Doh! It will be interesting to see what evolves. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 819 Registered: Oct-07 | Free content? Not if the goofballs that were opposed to VHS rentals have there say. OK, Beverly Hillbillies and Lost In Space will be free. You'll even pay for Gilligan's Island and any movie that has a recognizable star in it. Memory will continue to get less expensive, I suppose. IC's are getting more and more difficult to scale down and thus each increment faster/smaller gets more expensive. Forget Moore's Law. This works while you are still on the flat part of the curve and can 'cherry pick' the improvements. It is not unreasonable to suppose that the curve sweeps upward fairly soon. PS, I worked in semiconductor fabrication for 25 years+ The technology to make 'on demand' real and easy is pretty close but not yet widely enough available. Wait a decade and see? Sooner? Raid 10? In all electronic form, sounds like a winner. If I understand what you say, 'ownership' of media may become passe as people go to the 'on demand' model. Somebody else would have to foot the bill for every format change. Mark me old fashioned. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2864 Registered: Nov-05 | All very interesting guys, seriously. But maybe a new thread on new technology would be in order since this is going far beyond the original intent of this thread. I am still experimenting between the two players when I get time - which is a bit scarce at present. I will report back though and I hope to read a report from Nuck very soon. Hey Nuck? PS - I know we all go off track on this forum and I'm just as guilty, but the gist of this thread is about to get lost totally. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14457 Registered: Dec-04 | M.R. Beyond one fairly short session, the oppo has been silently spinning while I was away for a few days. I will be playing it tonight for a bit, perhaps trying the digital outs to my little tube dac, and shall report in. |
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Silver Member Username: HawkbillyNova Scotia Canada Post Number: 780 Registered: Jul-07 | Sorry MR, it is indeed off track. |
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Silver Member Username: MagfanUSA Post Number: 821 Registered: Oct-07 | guilty as charged! Who starts new thread? and where? |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2865 Registered: Nov-05 | Nuck, it's fine trying it with your tube dac of course, but we are waiting for a comparison in its own right - as a standalone cdp. I know Larry is biting at the bit for your report also. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14459 Registered: Dec-04 | Straight to the Mac, MR. This weekend I will also compare to a new Media Center for playback, as well as the DAC from file, etc. A few fella's coming here this weekend to demo all this stuff and drink beer. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2867 Registered: Nov-05 | Okay, one maybe two beers for audio demos Nuck - any more and it will just turn out to be . . . er . . . fun! Look forward to your report. |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14461 Registered: Dec-04 | The Enquirer has prepaid for footage in new hd video. The boys had best bring cash! |
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Gold Member Username: SoundgameToronto, Ontario Canada Post Number: 1102 Registered: Jun-08 | I wonder how many Stereophile reviews get written up based on the influence. I've heard of DUI and now we've got AUI (auditioning under influence). |
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Platinum Member Username: NuckPost Number: 14464 Registered: Dec-04 | for more on the Oppo BDP, see over in Old Dawgs?? George. It might get loud. On BluRay. And hi-fi. |
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Gold Member Username: My_rantzGold CoastAustralia Post Number: 2870 Registered: Nov-05 | If there are any Saturn owners out there who could get hold of the standard Oppo BD to do a comparison test I would love to read your conclusions. First, I don't think I'll ever buy a Rega product again on principal - that they have dropped their price here from $3500AU to $2500AU and tell us it's because of the global economy tells me that they were ripping of their customers. If they can drop a grand and still make profits then I won't be putting myself in a position again where (a) I'm grossly overpaying and (b) losing immensely when it comes time to sell. Thank you RG I think you suck. Second - I do like the Saturn. It plays music like nothing I've had in our system before. There is nothing I've thrown at it that it can't handle with aplomb. It's extremely musical in its delicacy, it's gutz, it's timing, its detail, mid range sweetness and bottom end prowess and its ability to separate all players on the stage before me. So what's the problem? The problem is that a universal Bluray player, the standard Oppo BDP-83 can equal it with every virtue I mentioned above. And it cost (here downunder) less than a third of the price, which incidently is also way overpriced afaic. I have backed and forthed playing Cassandra Wilson, David Bowie, Wynton Marsalis today - playing full tracks over and over on both machines and I'm still finding it difficult to make a preference in that I really can't pick anything one does better or worse than the other. This has me not only disappointed in Rega (or the Saturns ability to shine over a lesser player) but it also has me losing any faith I may have had in reviewers. Reviews of the BDP-83 has been nothing but the highest praises - if there were any lesser remarks about it, it was cd playback. See where I'm going? Are they reluctant to laud a universal player in this regard? Or do I just silently wait and pass into old age thinking my ears are shot and hope someone shoots me? What of the Special Edition BDP-83 - if the std player is so good? So far Nuck likes what he hears. But there's no real comaprison yet apart from the fact that he believes it surpasses his Apollo - right Nuck! I hope to hear more from you and anyone else who can get a chance to evaluate either or both versions of the Oppo. From ESS Technologies website for those interested: http://www.esstech.com/PR_2009/Oppo_ESS_9016_PR.pdf |
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Platinum Member Username: ArtkAlbany, Oregon USA Post Number: 11960 Registered: Feb-05 | Nice write up, MR. I've heard many very good players out do the Rega's in one element or another, but none out do them at their given price in that elusive descriptive called musicality. I'll give the Oppo a listen for sure but am sure based on my experiences, not with Oppo, but with other recently listened to high end players that I will happily stick with the Saturn. The only thing I would happily trade in my Saturn for is the Bryston BDA-1. Haven't had it in my home but OMG it's good. This player has all of the "OTHER" hi end goodies plus everything the Rega has. It's a monster! That said, I totally agree with you relative to Rega. They throw you under the friggin' bus and seemingly without a care. QC has absolutely tanked with them. Whatever Roy Gandy is thinking, he'd better change streams soon or find himself riding fence all by himself. That's before we even talk about what they do to dealers. My Saturn will be the last new Rega product I buy, until they change their ways. Thanks again for giving us a glimpse into your listening experience, MR. More to come, I'm sure. |
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